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View Full Version : Encarnacion's attitude impresses; position change in EdE's future??



Always Red
05-12-2007, 09:04 AM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070512/SPT04/705120373/


LOS ANGELES - Reds officials hoped Edwin Encarnacion would report for his minor-league assignment Thursday, and the third baseman did.

Optioned to Triple-A Louisville before the Reds played at Great American Ball Park, Encarnacion started at third base for the Bats on Thursday and went 2-for-4 with a run.

"It is very, very rare for a player to be sent out and report and play the very same day," Reds manager Jerry Narron said. "That says a great deal about Edwin Encarnacion."


The Reds sent Encarnacion to Louisville after he batted .218 with one home run, 14 RBI and six errors.

The possibility of getting less playing time during the team's current road trip also factored in the decision.

"A guy that drove in (72) runs last year, with the numbers he had, he's going to be a good major-league hitter," Narron said. "There is no doubt in my mind about it. If he is not, he will have no one to blame but himself."

Encarnacion hit .276 with 15 homers and 33 doubles and had 25 errors in the field.

Narron indicated there has been some discussion about trying Encarnacion at first base. The 24-year-old made one start and one extra-inning appearance at first base last season.

"He even took some fly balls in the outfield last year," Narron said. "He's played some games at first base. A big part of it is if he hits. If he hits the way he's capable of hitting, that whole thing about finding a place to play will be true."

I think they like his bat a lot, they just couldn't live with his arm at 3B. It will be interesting to see which position he plays at Louisville...so far, it's been 3B.

membengal
05-12-2007, 09:39 AM
I guess I don't understand the position change chatter. OF is full, now (Dunn, Jr., Freel, Hobbs) and in the future (Hobbs, Bruce, Stubbs, Dunn? Jr.? Freel?), and Votto will be here real soon at 1b. The solution is to help him and help themselves be comfortable with him at 3b.

Always Red
05-12-2007, 09:48 AM
The solution is to help him and help themselves be comfortable with him at 3b.

well, that would work out best for everyone, if he can make the throw. I think his glove and his range are fine.


Maybe they have worked with him so much, and this is all he has? Some very good ballplayers have struggled with making even simpler throws from 2B- Steve Sax and Chuck Knoblough come to mind.

UK Reds Fan
05-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Agreed....all of our prospects are Votto and the crew in the OF.

We have nothing at 3rd in the near future and only Freel could be considered half-way credible and even Freel has his personal set of issues.

If EE isn't considered a 3B of the future, then trade him out for some pitching or another 3B and build a team.

Degenerate39
05-12-2007, 10:59 AM
There's no room for him in the outfield. Joey Votto will be up next year and he'll be first base. Edwin stays at 3rd base

OnBaseMachine
05-12-2007, 11:01 AM
Just trade Encarnacion if they have plans of moving him to another position.

westofyou
05-12-2007, 11:13 AM
Just trade Encarnacion if they have plans of moving him to another position.

Why?

If they move him to 1st ala Tony Perez, Danny Driessen, it does not mean he has to play it all the time, but he can play it against LH's and then Freel and he can both play IF if they have to, multiple position players are a bonus IMO, and if the guy has a good bat it's just more gravy on the meat as far as I'm concerned.

OnBaseMachine
05-12-2007, 11:32 AM
Why?

If they move him to 1st ala Tony Perez, Danny Driessen, it does not mean he has to play it all the time, but he can play it against LH's and then Freel and he can both play IF if they have to, multiple position players are a bonus IMO, and if the guy has a good bat it's just more gravy on the meat as far as I'm concerned.

Because Joey Votto is the first baseman of the future for this ballclub and the closest third baseman we have in the minors is Juan Francisco - and while he is a stud, he's still three or four years away from the majors. The Reds need to let EdE stick it out at 3B and watch him develop into one of the upper tier of 3B in the league. He's got the talent to do so, he's just simply struggling right now. His stats last year back me up on that.

Marc D
05-12-2007, 11:41 AM
Why?

If they move him to 1st ala Tony Perez, Danny Driessen, it does not mean he has to play it all the time, but he can play it against LH's and then Freel and he can both play IF if they have to, multiple position players are a bonus IMO, and if the guy has a good bat it's just more gravy on the meat as far as I'm concerned.


If they are comfortable with EE at 1B and can flip Votto for a near MLB ready 3B that is equal to or greater than EE then have at it.

I'm not attached to any of these guy, just the fading hope that I may see a good Reds team on the field again in my lifetime.

westofyou
05-12-2007, 11:48 AM
The Reds need to let EdE stick it out at 3B and watch him develop into one of the upper tier of 3B in the league. He's got the talent to do so, he's just simply struggling right now. His stats last year back me up on that.

What happens if he goes all Tony Perez in the field? While I want EE to play 3rd (no Reds position is so historically poorly represented as 3rd) I also know that he's erratic at 3rd and he's got a quick RH bat, if I want that bat more I find ways to lessen his defensive strain (and the one he occasionally causes the team) It's not a demotion, it's another door opening for opportunity. If he's an elite 3rd sacker then he will grab it, they want him to (ducks for the 10'000 posts saying the contrary) As for the only replacement being in low minors.... there's a whole world of baseball outside of the Reds system and I'm certain that if pressed they'd look around there for a solution.

reds44
05-12-2007, 01:20 PM
If they are comfortable with EE at 1B and can flip Votto for a near MLB ready 3B that is equal to or greater than EE then have at it.

Yep. I think EE's going to be move to another position, I just don't know where.

When you look at what we have in the majors right now, we have Dunn and Griffey corning the outfield. Unless we plan on trading one of them, I don't move him to OF. At first base, we have Hatteberg, Conine, and Votto. Hatteberg and Conine will most likely be gone after this year, but we have Votto. I personally feel EE would be a really good defensive 1st baseman, but then you block Votto. I have no idea how EE would do in the outfiled.

Right now, EE's quickest ticket back to Cinicinnati is at 3rd base where we have Freel, Castro, and Keppinger. Leave him there for now. If we are out of the race and we trade Griffey and/or Dunn or trade Hatteberg and Conine and you want him to play the OF or 1B for the last few months of the year then that's ok too.

It's only a matter of time before Edwin starts hitting. He'll start mudering the ball in AAA, and he'll be up here. I'll be VERY surprised if he's still in AAA come June 10th.

And does it surprise anyone EE has a good attitude? All we read about last year was how he worked his butt off to try to improve his defense.

reds44
05-12-2007, 01:21 PM
What happens if he goes all Tony Perez in the field? While I want EE to play 3rd (no Reds position is so historically poorly represented as 3rd) I also know that he's erratic at 3rd and he's got a quick RH bat, if I want that bat more I find ways to lessen his defensive strain (and the one he occasionally causes the team) It's not a demotion, it's another door opening for opportunity. If he's an elite 3rd sacker then he will grab it, they want him to (ducks for the 10'000 posts saying the contrary) As for the only replacement being in low minors.... there's a whole world of baseball outside of the Reds system and I'm certain that if pressed they'd look around there for a solution.
If his struggles on defensive are affecting his offensive production, then he needs to switch positions now. His bat is too important for the Reds for him to A. be slumping because of defense and B. be in AAA.

If he's learning a new position in AAA for 2-4 weeks, then so be it.

steig
05-12-2007, 01:54 PM
Good hitting, young third basemen are a hard find in MLB right now. I think they will hope his hitting improves and try to teach him better defense. He will never be great but maybe tolerable, similar to Dunn in left. THe only question is how many tolerable defensive players can we play at once?

flyer85
05-12-2007, 01:56 PM
There's no room for him in the outfield. Joey Votto will be up next year and he'll be first base. Edwin stays at 3rd basePlenty of room in the OF, his bat just doesn't play as well there.

flyer85
05-12-2007, 01:58 PM
Good hitting, young third basemen are a hard find in MLB right now. I think they will hope his hitting improves and try to teach him better defense. He will never be great but maybe tolerable, similar to Dunn in left. THe only question is how many tolerable defensive players can we play at once?the answer is likely four as the Reds started the year with Dunn, Jr, EE and Hatty at the 4 least important defensive positions. None of those four are even average.

puca
05-12-2007, 02:02 PM
Before they move him, I wish they would first try bringing in a good fielding firstbaseman. Maybe I'm just not watching at the right times, but I can count on one hand the number of times in the past two years that I've seen our firstbaseman save a poor throw.

reds44
05-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Before they move him, I wish they would first try bringing in a good fielding firstbaseman. Maybe I'm just not watching at the right times, but I can count on one hand the number of times in the past two years that I've seen our firstbaseman save a poor throw.
Who's to say he wouldn't be a good fielding 1st baseman?

puca
05-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Who's to say he wouldn't be a good fielding 1st baseman?

I haven't seen anyone say that.

But he is more valuable as a 3rd baseman than a firstbaseman. Whether the Reds keep him or not. I'm not sure how many of those errors a really good fielding firstbaseman could have saved, and whether that would be enough to 'relax' Edwin a bit (or for that matter whether his throwing problem is mental or physical), but I do know that niether Conine or Hatteberg are likely to be nicknamed 'scoop'.

MartyFan
05-12-2007, 02:29 PM
Isn't Dunn's contract up at the end of this year? Junior won't be around much longer...If they move EE to 1B it works right into the plans of a superior D team...Do you think the Reds could move Junior for a decent 3B and RP?

Votto may be the future, EE may be the future....Brandon Larson says hi :wave:

TeamBoone
05-12-2007, 04:53 PM
Because Joey Votto is the first baseman of the future for this ballclub and the closest third baseman we have in the minors is Juan Francisco - and while he is a stud, he's still three or four years away from the majors. The Reds need to let EdE stick it out at 3B and watch him develop into one of the upper tier of 3B in the league. He's got the talent to do so, he's just simply struggling right now. His stats last year back me up on that.

I was going to ask who the 3B replacement might be; thank you for answering that question.

I totally agree with your post. Edwin is very good at fielding third base, except for throwing. He WILL get it down, and when he does, look out!



Good hitting, young third basemen are a hard find in MLB right now. I think they will hope his hitting improves and try to teach him better defense. He will never be great but maybe tolerable, similar to Dunn in left. THe only question is how many tolerable defensive players can we play at once?

Tolerable? EE is far better than tolerable, even though his throwing accuracy needs work. He gets to (or knocks down) balls that no one else does.

Did you see the one missed at third last night? EE would have had it. He might not have thrown the runner out at first (or he might have), but it wouldn't be any worse than it ended up last night with the hit getting through.

mroby85
05-12-2007, 10:31 PM
i don't like to pat myself on the back, but i brought this up a couple weeks ago, lol.

jojo
05-12-2007, 11:25 PM
I've always heard that EE has a very good work ethic....

I'm inclined to believe his trouble is that he gets a little too wrapped up in this struggles....

jojo
05-12-2007, 11:29 PM
The Reds need to let EdE stick it out at 3B and watch him develop into one of the upper tier of 3B in the league. He's got the talent to do so, he's just simply struggling right now. His stats last year back me up on that.

EE basically projects to be a roughly league average thirdbaseman the Reds can plug and play. That's not a slam-it's a good thing during his control years. If the Reds need him to be an upper tier one, then that might underlie some of their apparent frustration with him.....

Stingray
05-13-2007, 12:44 AM
EE has consistently demonstrated excellent reactions, excellent quickness, excellents hands, and excellent range, all these talents are perfectly suited for 3b. These talents are pretty much naturally endowed - next to impossible to teach. His one fielding problem is the throw to first which is a matter of technique/mechanics and experience - it can be taught/learned.

Many young infieders have had the same problem, have worked their way through it, and some have become gold glover fielders.

In addition, from what I read, we have NO 3B options at the Dayton level or above. From what I hear, Juan Francisco, while a stud hitting prospect, is not currently even a fair fielding 3B(I'm thinking his ML future is at 1B).

Unless you think the Reds are going somewhere(besides home) this season it would be madness to have him switch positions. Many of you will laugh but I believe he has gold glove potential. These are also the reasons I've been so upset by the way the Reds have handled him. He's one of the critical elements for the Reds to be serious contenders by 2009.

BucksandReds
05-13-2007, 12:57 AM
I'm just very glad that he was extremely mature and proactive about this whole situation. He demonstrated excellent character by immediately going down to Louisville and not complaining. He has been hitting quite well since he got down there and will probably be up here in the next month after OPSing 900 something down there. When he comes back watch out. I have a feeling that he will be twice the player then that he was in April and early May.

GAC
05-13-2007, 09:29 AM
If he's learning a new position in AAA for 2-4 weeks, then so be it.

You don't learn a new position in 2-4 weeks.

I like the kid and I hope they can find a place for him. It's not like we don't have "holes" and options on this team.

Guys like EE, as well as Freel and BP, have range and fielding talent. Their problem? Mental mistakes, always trying to make/force a play, when they need to learn to just hold the ball.

But they worked with him last year quite extensively on his defense and fielding. Where's the progress?

peterose00
05-13-2007, 07:12 PM
I hope I am wrong, but it is entirley possible that EE never plays n Cincinnati again. He isn't hitting or fielding well at Louisville -- and if what many of you are saying about the guy (basically getting down on himself when he plays below what he expects) then he could be there a while.

dougdirt
05-13-2007, 07:16 PM
I'm inclined to believe his trouble is that he gets a little too wrapped up in this struggles....

I bet that has nothing to do with him being treated unlike everyone else and the second he thinks about making an error he sits for 2 days.

peterose00
05-13-2007, 07:18 PM
I bet that has nothing to do with him being treated unlike everyone else and the second he thinks about making an error he sits for 2 days.

He isn't going to be sitting at all -- in Louisville

dougdirt
05-13-2007, 07:21 PM
He isn't going to be sitting at all -- in Louisville

He shouldnt have been sitting at all in Cincinnati.

peterose00
05-13-2007, 07:37 PM
He shouldnt have been sitting at all in Cincinnati.

Why not. He was hitting .215 and led the team in errors. If EE wasn't hitting or fielding, why should he have been playing?

peterose00
05-13-2007, 07:38 PM
He shouldnt have been sitting at all in Cincinnati.

His slugging percentage was .278 -- that is awful.

dougdirt
05-13-2007, 07:40 PM
Its called a slump. Should we have sent Adam Dunn down to start this season because he hit .173 in the last month and a half of the season last year? No, we shouldnt because it was just a slump.

dougdirt
05-13-2007, 07:45 PM
Oh and if he was sent down for batting poorly, shouldnt have have chosen a better tim to send him down than when over his last 9 games he was hitting .286/.359/.457?

peterose00
05-13-2007, 08:19 PM
Oh and if he was sent down for batting poorly, shouldnt have have chosen a better tim to send him down than when over his last 9 games he was hitting .286/.359/.457?

EE had gotten to the point that any ball hit his way was a potential problem. His confidence was rocked to te point that it was seriously affecting him.

If Dunn has responded the same way, then yes, he could have been sent down as well.

If EE is the player you think he is, he should eat up AAA pitching and play great defense. Narron even said he has been given the chance to show us all that we were wrong to send him down. That isn't happening so far.

dougdirt
05-13-2007, 08:24 PM
EE had gotten to the point that any ball hit his way was a potential problem. His confidence was rocked to te point that it was seriously affecting him.

If Dunn has responded the same way, then yes, he could have been sent down as well.

If EE is the player you think he is, he should eat up AAA pitching and play great defense. Narron even said he has been given the chance to show us all that we were wrong to send him down. That isn't happening so far.

Yeah, in 3 games. Edwin isnt going to play great defense at third, he probably never will.

His confidence was rocked probably due partly to the fact that he knows when he makes an error that he is going to be sitting the next two days and removed from any game after the 7th inning for another two weeks after that.

reds44
05-13-2007, 08:25 PM
Oh and if he was sent down for batting poorly, shouldnt have have chosen a better tim to send him down than when over his last 9 games he was hitting .286/.359/.457?
That's terrible. Should have been sent to AA.

jojo
05-13-2007, 08:46 PM
Its called a slump. Should we have sent Adam Dunn down to start this season because he hit .173 in the last month and a half of the season last year? No, we shouldnt because it was just a slump.

we should've seen if he weighed the same as a duck....if so, then he's made of wood... and therefore...... :bang:

Sending EE down was pretty much painless reactionary fan appeaasement...he has options and it was the absolute easiest, inconsequential thing they could've done roster-wise.... it's like sending more troops to look like you're doing something while you're really just biding your time PR-wise while hoping with your fingers crossed that things get better on their own before you really need to make the hard decisions...

The problem is, time isn't what this bullpen needs...

Always Red
05-13-2007, 10:44 PM
Yeah, in 3 games. Edwin isnt going to play great defense at third, he probably never will.

His confidence was rocked probably due partly to the fact that he knows when he makes an error that he is going to be sitting the next two days and removed from any game after the 7th inning for another two weeks after that.


There's a big difference between great defense at third, and adequate defense.

Eddie made 2 more errors today, one fielding and one on a throw, for a total of 3 errors in the 3 games he's been there. He also had two hits today.

I think any idea that EE was sent down because of some personal vendetta JN has against him is malarkey. If his confidence is that shaky, then he needs to find some mental toughness, somehow, someway. There's no crying in baseball. Eddie needs to toughen up (if it's truly a confidence problem because he's afraid to make an error) and get the job done. I hope he can do it

puca
05-14-2007, 09:00 AM
I will always wonder what the Cubs were thinking when they traded for a 25 year old thirdbaseman that was well on his way to making 33 errors in consecutive seasons. But after all, it was the Cubs.

I wonder how is it that Aramis Ramirez is now one of the better fielding thirdbasemen in the league. I wonder if the Pirates are happy they gave up on him.

REDREAD
05-14-2007, 09:17 AM
Just trade Encarnacion if they have plans of moving him to another position.

I agree with you. What makes him special is that he's an impact bat at 3b, something we really need.

Move him to 1b or OF, and then we're stuck with Freel or Castro at 3b, who are probably worse defenders than Eddie.

I don't understand why a team in last place wouldn't just leave EdE at 3b and hope he learns. Of course, the Reds prefer the hardline/punishment routine that probably makes the guy nervous.

I guess EdE read about what a big deal they made about it when Kearns took some time to report to AAA, even though the rules allowed him to take that time.

REDREAD
05-14-2007, 09:21 AM
I bet that has nothing to do with him being treated unlike everyone else and the second he thinks about making an error he sits for 2 days.

Yep, I imagine it's hard to play effectively when you know you are going to get hammered for any mistake you make. Way to keep the young kid loose, Narron.

Redhook
05-14-2007, 10:28 AM
His confidence was rocked probably due partly to the fact that he knows when he makes an error that he is going to be sitting the next two days and removed from any game after the 7th inning for another two weeks after that.

I'd say definitely, not probably. There's no way EE will be able to relax out and play to his full ability if he's worried in the back of his head that he will be taken out for every little mistake. You're then playing not to make a mistake instead of just playing the game. I do put some, not a lot, of the blame on Narron. I also believe that EE will never be a good 3rd basemen with Narron as the coach. One has to go (*hint*, Narron, *hint*).

This is a little off subject, but I believe Bob Huggins coached the same way when he was with the Bearcats. Every time one of his players made a minor mistake he would sit them on the bench. IMO, that's a terrible way to coach. Having your players, in any sport, playing tentatively due to the fear of being taken out of the game leads to poor play. I believe that was one of the big reasons why Huggins had a very poor record in the NCAA tournament.

HBP
05-14-2007, 10:34 AM
I will always wonder what the Cubs were thinking when they traded for a 25 year old thirdbaseman that was well on his way to making 33 errors in consecutive seasons. But after all, it was the Cubs.

I wonder how is it that Aramis Ramirez is now one of the better fielding thirdbasemen in the league. I wonder if the Pirates are happy they gave up on him.

Ramirez at 23: 157 G, 25 E
Edwin at 23: 113 G, 25 E

puca
05-14-2007, 10:40 AM
Ramirez at 23: 157 G, 25 E
Edwin at 23: 113 G, 25 E

Ramirez at 24: 131 games, 33 E :eek:
Ramirez at 25: 159 games, 33 E
Ramirez at 26: 144 games, 10 E

Always Red
05-14-2007, 10:42 AM
This is a little off subject, but I believe Bob Huggins coached the same way when he was with the Bearcats. Every time one of his players made a minor mistake he would sit them on the bench. IMO, that's a terrible way to coach. Having your players, in any sport, playing tentatively due to the fear of being taken out of the game leads to poor play. I believe that was one of the big reasons why Huggins had a very poor record in the NCAA tournament.

On the other hand, that's why Huggins teams had such respect for him and won so many games- it was crystal clear was what expected of them. Off topic, I know, but Huggins NCAA game problems stemmed from his in game coaching abilities, I think.

BUT, it's good to raise the point, because Huggins did treat everyone the same way. Make no mistake, most of those kids loved him, they'd all come back and visit after they left the program. Of course, these are college athletes, so it's a totally different situation.

EE was treated differently than other players, even I can see that, and I've been generally OK with him being demoted temporarily to get his head together.

Apparently there is some clubhouse dissension brewing, which is starting to spill over into the press. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it, and if any of it has to do with different standards for different players?

I agree that it seems Eddie is a sensitive soul. I think he needs to toughen his mental approach to the game, and take more of a FB defensive back attitude towards the game- in other words, have a very short memory, and lots of confidence.

Hey look, I mixed metaphors from three different sports in the same post...

membengal
05-14-2007, 10:46 AM
According to Welsh yesterday, if I heard him right, is that some of the unrest deals with why Castro hasn't gotten more playing time. If that's what some of the team is thinking, Narron has a LOT of work to do to heal that clubhouse. And another indictment of why putting Castro on this team in any role was a bad idea by WK.

Ltlabner
05-14-2007, 11:17 AM
According to Welsh yesterday, if I heard him right, is that some of the unrest deals with why Castro hasn't gotten more playing time. If that's what some of the team is thinking, Narron has a LOT of work to do to heal that clubhouse. And another indictment of why putting Castro on this team in any role was a bad idea by WK.

Are those complaints comming from Castro himself, or from a group of his teammates?

If it's the teammates, it would be interesting that the baseball players would support him, while he is generally derided by RZ.

membengal
05-14-2007, 11:21 AM
Reading between the lines from Welsh, from unknown teammates. And yes, a divergence from RZ. But that doensn't make RZ wrong. Or his teammates for that matter. By all accounts Castro is a "great guy". It just so happens that he is a zero as a ballplayer, by a lot of measures. It would be best if he were not on the team. Since he is, it has to be communicated somehow, to any players muttering about his playing time, that "such is life".

All of that assumes that I heard Welsh correctly.

BRM
05-14-2007, 11:21 AM
Are those complaints comming from Castro himself, or from a group of his teammates?

If it's the teammates, it would be interesting that the baseball players would support him, while he is generally derided by RZ.

That last part is no real surprise.

Ltlabner
05-14-2007, 11:22 AM
Reading between the lines from Welsh, from unknown teammates. And yes, a divergence from RZ. But that doensn't make RZ wrong. Or his teammates for that matter. By all accounts Castro is a "great guy". It just so happens that he is a zero as a ballplayer, by a lot of measures. It would be best if he were not on the team. Since he is, it has to be communicated somehow, to any players muttering about his playing time, that "such is life".

All of that assumes that I heard Welsh correctly.

Oh yea, I wasn't implying that either group was "wrong" about Castro's abilities. Just an interesting observation that the divergance existed is all.

BRM
05-14-2007, 11:24 AM
So, some Reds players are clamoring for more PT for Juan Castro? Man, I hope Jerry nips that one soon.

membengal
05-14-2007, 11:29 AM
Did anyone else hear that from Welsh? It was around the second inning, I believe. I don't want to be the source of something purely incorrect. But that's what I thought I heard him saying.

HBP
05-14-2007, 12:02 PM
Ramirez at 24: 131 games, 33 E :eek:
Ramirez at 25: 159 games, 33 E
Ramirez at 26: 144 games, 10 E

Unless Yahoo is lying to me, I'm not seeing this. He did have 33 in 2003, but not in 2002.


Year Team POS G GS INN PO TC A E DP FPCT
2000 PIT 3B 72 71 583 26 168 128 14 7 .917
2001 PIT 3B 157 155 1345 92 452 335 25 33 .945
2002 PIT 3B 131 130 1066 78 352 255 19 32 .946
2003 PIT 3B 96 94 845 62 301 216 23 10 .924
2003 CHC 3B 63 62 552 35 165 120 10 14 .939
2004 CHC 3B 144 141 1245 92 323 221 10 15 .969

WMR
05-14-2007, 12:10 PM
Did anyone else hear that from Welsh? It was around the second inning, I believe. I don't want to be the source of something purely incorrect. But that's what I thought I heard him saying.

Yes, I heard it and did a double-take, realizing that, if true, we've got some really dumb players on this roster if they think giving more playing time to Juan bleeping Castro is going to do anything but make this situation worse.

Wouldn't surprise me if it was an off-hand comment that Chris Welsh commandeered to do some editorializing b/c he clearly wants to have Castro's baby. Of course, he'd have to get in line behind Marty and GG.

BRM
05-14-2007, 12:13 PM
Weren't some players very upset when Graves was released? Players tend to stick up for their buddies and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Castro is well liked in the clubhouse and some of his "pals" are just making a PT push for him. This is not a big deal as long as Narron doesn't grant the request.

membengal
05-14-2007, 12:15 PM
But that's the thing. That request may have been granted over the weekend. It may get granted again.

It's why even having Castro on the club is less than optimal, because it raises the chance that he will actually get at-bats in games.

WMR
05-14-2007, 12:15 PM
Weren't some players very upset when Graves was released? Players tend to stick up for their buddies and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Castro is well liked in the clubhouse and some of his "pals" are just making a PT push for him. This is not a big deal as long as Narron doesn't grant the request.

And we should all have SO much confidence in Narron's ability to make the correct decision, right? :laugh:

WMR
05-14-2007, 12:16 PM
But that's the thing. That request may have been granted over the weekend. It may get granted again.

It's why even having Castro on the club is less than optimal, because it raises the chance that he will actually get at-bats in games.

Haven't you guys been listening to Krivsky? He's a valued contributor on this team.

BRM
05-14-2007, 12:17 PM
But that's the thing. That request may have been granted over the weekend. It may get granted again.

It's why even having Castro on the club is less than optimal, because it raises the chance that he will actually get at-bats in games.

Well, that's certainly a good point. Castro started twice over the weekend, didn't he?

WMR
05-14-2007, 12:17 PM
Those 2 hits yesterday probably bought Castro another 150 ABs, AT LEAST.

puca
05-14-2007, 12:19 PM
Unless Yahoo is lying to me, I'm not seeing this. He did have 33 in 2003, but not in 2002.

[/CODE]


My bad. You are right. I misread. I've spewed this mis-information in a couple of threads now. :oops:

Still the 23 errors in 96 games prior to the trade is quite Edwin like.

bounty37h
05-14-2007, 12:23 PM
Because Joey Votto is the first baseman of the future for this ballclub and the closest third baseman we have in the minors is Juan Francisco - and while he is a stud, he's still three or four years away from the majors. The Reds need to let EdE stick it out at 3B and watch him develop into one of the upper tier of 3B in the league. He's got the talent to do so, he's just simply struggling right now. His stats last year back me up on that.

25 errors last year back you up that he's going to be in the upper tier of 3B in the league?? I want to see him improve, and had high hopes that winter ball and all the extra work they put in on him over the off season to become a ballplayer would work-but, I am not sure that he maybe just isn't going to develop into a major league third baseman.

toledodan
05-14-2007, 03:46 PM
If they are comfortable with EE at 1B and can flip Votto for a near MLB ready 3B that is equal to or greater than EE then have at it.

I'm not attached to any of these guy, just the fading hope that I may see a good Reds team on the field again in my lifetime.



no way would i ever trade votto to keep EE.

hebroncougar
05-15-2007, 12:02 PM
You can almost understand it. Encarnacion hasn't produced at the plate, and he's been awful in the field, and with Josh Hamilton's arrival on the scene crowding the outfield, the Reds have their everyday center fielder now, right? They've got to play Ryan Freel somewhere, so by banishing Encarnacion to Kentucky, they get the double-edged psychic benefit of a punitive demotion for their young third baseman who's managed to not be the new Pujols while playing their Rhineland-friendly scrapper at third, Freel. It's a lovely narrative, but it's complete malarkey. Freel's been struggling through “flu-like symptoms” for a while now, and the Reds got the feel-good rush of making Encarnacion go away without actually having someone around to play third in his place, which just highlights how dumb the move was. So, instead of Freel doing something he's not very good at (play third), Reds fans have been treated to Juan Castro and Keppinger starting at the hot corner, which ought to please no one, because each is the definition of an emergency starter at third, and after a day or two, it ceases to be an emergency, and becomes instead an example of weird mismanagement. The organization threw a similar tantrum over Encarnacion's fielding problems last year, and nobody was impressed when they punished him and themselves by sitting him down. It's just not very bright to make yourself worse because you're unwilling to accept one of the prices of playing someone who's an offensive asset. You run the risk of giving yourself a complete zero in the lineup (a desultory 'mission accomplished' there when the likes of Keppinger or Castro are penciled into starting roles), and scapegoating Encarnacion because he had the misfortune of being the only everyday player to get off to a slow start seems juvenile. Last I checked, Encarnacion didn't spend the better part of a year obsessed with the intricacies of building the league's worst bullpen, but then I guess a five-week slump on the field is more expensive than a multi-month bad run in the front office. Except in the standings, of course, but that's all Encarnacion's fault too, right?


Quoted for truth.........................

Falls City Beer
05-15-2007, 12:04 PM
You can almost understand it. Encarnacion hasn't produced at the plate, and he's been awful in the field, and with Josh Hamilton's arrival on the scene crowding the outfield, the Reds have their everyday center fielder now, right? They've got to play Ryan Freel somewhere, so by banishing Encarnacion to Kentucky, they get the double-edged psychic benefit of a punitive demotion for their young third baseman who's managed to not be the new Pujols while playing their Rhineland-friendly scrapper at third, Freel. It's a lovely narrative, but it's complete malarkey. Freel's been struggling through “flu-like symptoms” for a while now, and the Reds got the feel-good rush of making Encarnacion go away without actually having someone around to play third in his place, which just highlights how dumb the move was. So, instead of Freel doing something he's not very good at (play third), Reds fans have been treated to Juan Castro and Keppinger starting at the hot corner, which ought to please no one, because each is the definition of an emergency starter at third, and after a day or two, it ceases to be an emergency, and becomes instead an example of weird mismanagement. The organization threw a similar tantrum over Encarnacion's fielding problems last year, and nobody was impressed when they punished him and themselves by sitting him down. It's just not very bright to make yourself worse because you're unwilling to accept one of the prices of playing someone who's an offensive asset. You run the risk of giving yourself a complete zero in the lineup (a desultory 'mission accomplished' there when the likes of Keppinger or Castro are penciled into starting roles), and scapegoating Encarnacion because he had the misfortune of being the only everyday player to get off to a slow start seems juvenile. Last I checked, Encarnacion didn't spend the better part of a year obsessed with the intricacies of building the league's worst bullpen, but then I guess a five-week slump on the field is more expensive than a multi-month bad run in the front office. Except in the standings, of course, but that's all Encarnacion's fault too, right?


Quoted for truth.........................

Yep.

OesterPoster
05-15-2007, 12:07 PM
I swear, it's almost like someone from RedsZone wrote that at BP...or someone from BP reads RedsZone religiously.

hebroncougar
05-15-2007, 12:15 PM
I swear, it's almost like someone from RedsZone wrote that at BP...or someone from BP reads RedsZone religiously.

Maybe us Redzoners are just darn smart. :D

bounty37h
05-15-2007, 12:57 PM
^ I dont think thats it.

westofyou
05-15-2007, 01:18 PM
You can almost understand it. Encarnacion hasn't produced at the plate, and he's been awful in the field, and with Josh Hamilton's arrival on the scene crowding the outfield, the Reds have their everyday center fielder now, right? They've got to play Ryan Freel somewhere, so by banishing Encarnacion to Kentucky, they get the double-edged psychic benefit of a punitive demotion for their young third baseman who's managed to not be the new Pujols while playing their Rhineland-friendly scrapper at third, Freel. It's a lovely narrative, but it's complete malarkey. Freel's been struggling through “flu-like symptoms” for a while now, and the Reds got the feel-good rush of making Encarnacion go away without actually having someone around to play third in his place, which just highlights how dumb the move was. So, instead of Freel doing something he's not very good at (play third), Reds fans have been treated to Juan Castro and Keppinger starting at the hot corner, which ought to please no one, because each is the definition of an emergency starter at third, and after a day or two, it ceases to be an emergency, and becomes instead an example of weird mismanagement. The organization threw a similar tantrum over Encarnacion's fielding problems last year, and nobody was impressed when they punished him and themselves by sitting him down. It's just not very bright to make yourself worse because you're unwilling to accept one of the prices of playing someone who's an offensive asset. You run the risk of giving yourself a complete zero in the lineup (a desultory 'mission accomplished' there when the likes of Keppinger or Castro are penciled into starting roles), and scapegoating Encarnacion because he had the misfortune of being the only everyday player to get off to a slow start seems juvenile. Last I checked, Encarnacion didn't spend the better part of a year obsessed with the intricacies of building the league's worst bullpen, but then I guess a five-week slump on the field is more expensive than a multi-month bad run in the front office. Except in the standings, of course, but that's all Encarnacion's fault too, right?


Quoted for truth.........................

Except this...Freel's been struggling through “flu-like symptoms” for a while now,

Two games, and if that's a *dig* at his play then it's a lame one at that.