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View Full Version : Can anyone tell me the advantage of breaking up the lefty's in the lineup?



Trace's Daddy
05-15-2007, 08:52 PM
Thanks:)

Degenerate39
05-15-2007, 08:54 PM
I didn't know there was one.

Matt700wlw
05-15-2007, 08:58 PM
Well if you have 3 lefties back to back to back, the opposing manger can bring in one lefty specialist for all 3 batters...if you break them up, then the manager had to decide what to do about the righty....maybe they have to use 2 extra pitchers now...


That's the thought process, I guess, but to me it sounds more like a manager outmanaging himself.....the opposing manager isn't going to panic because there's a righty breaking up the lefties. He'll simply bring in a different reliever and save the specialist for a different situation...

Just put your best hitters in the best places for them to have success. If that means Griffey, Dunn, Hamilton...then so be it.

DannyB
05-15-2007, 08:58 PM
(10)

noskill27
05-15-2007, 09:02 PM
Well said... I'd like to add that I've always found it funny that managers worry about that one time when the other manager brings in a lefty as opposed to the other 2 or 3 ABs that those hitters have...

jfar23
05-15-2007, 09:05 PM
It is only effective against bad managers or a team that has a lights out loogy.

Always Red
05-15-2007, 09:07 PM
Against RH starters, I'd bat Hamilton, Griffey and Dunn all back-back-back, and go for the kill, big run innings, rather than playing to keep the game close and minimize "unwanted" match-ups in the 7th or 8th.

I don't understand it either. Well, I understand what Jerry's trying to do, but why not go for the crooked numbers early, and avoid those 8th inning meltdowns?

He certainly has the LH power to do it, he needs to use it!

Did Ruth and Gehrig bat back-back in the order? ;)

hebroncougar
05-15-2007, 09:58 PM
Man..............you guys obviously are NOT baseball guys..............:laugh:

reds44
05-15-2007, 10:12 PM
Well if you have 3 lefties back to back to back, the opposing manger can bring in one lefty specialist for all 3 batters...if you break them up, then the manager had to decide what to do about the righty....maybe they have to use 2 extra pitchers now...


That's the thought process, I guess, but to me it sounds more like a manager outmanaging himself.....the opposing manager isn't going to panic because there's a righty breaking up the lefties. He'll simply bring in a different reliever and save the specialist for a different situation...

Just put your best hitters in the best places for them to have success. If that means Griffey, Dunn, Hamilton...then so be it.

You summed it up pretty well. However, as you hinted too, Narron holds to it way to much. Tonight's a perfect example. He splits up Griffey and Dunn with Conine. Griffey and Dunn are obviously better hitters, but he does it anyway.

There's advantages to splitting up the lefites, but when you put a guy like Conine between them it does more hurt then harm.

blumj
05-15-2007, 10:47 PM
It makes sense generally, just not for a team whose best hitters are all left handed.

CWRed
05-15-2007, 10:50 PM
I called Jerry Narron and asked him (we go way back) and he told me the advantage is 9 to 1 divided by the square root of scrappy. Then multiply that by 2 and it equals a quality lineup. How can you argue with that?

Always Red
05-15-2007, 10:51 PM
I called Jerry Narron and asked him (we go way back) and he told me the advantage is 9 to 1 divided by the square root of scrappy. Then multiply that by 2 and it equals a quality lineup. How can you argue with that?

ok, now I get it. :)

George Anderson
05-15-2007, 10:58 PM
One down side to not breaking up left handed hitters, is genius managers like Bob Boone are less prone to go out to the mound and make 3 consecutive pitching changes to 3 different batters in the same inning, leaving us all in awe over their ingenious, strategic moves!!!:rolleyes:

WMR
05-15-2007, 10:59 PM
There's a whole chapter devoted to it in "The Big Book of Baseball."

bucksfan2
05-16-2007, 10:45 AM
I think breaking up lefties are stupid. There are very few lefties that I would break up my left handed hitters for. If your a pitcher would you rather face a 3,4,5 of Hamilton, Griffey, Dunn or face a lineup of Hamilton, Phillips, Griffey, Gonzo, Dunn. I think this is a situation when a manager tends to outthink himself and doesn't put the best lineup together. For example Griffey is a lefty and David Wells is a lefty yet Jr. has hit more hrs off wells than anyone else. When you are dealing with a game when a 70% fail rate is good I think that switching lineups to break up the lefties does more harm than good.

muethibp
05-16-2007, 12:11 PM
It's one of the few (only?) aspects of baseball strategy that Narron appears to have the capacity to understand. Accordingly, it drives nearly every decision he makes, whether the result makes any sense or not, from lineup construction to, i.e., bringing in a struggling Mike Stanton to pitch to a left handed hitter in a crucial situation.

jojo
05-16-2007, 12:34 PM
You summed it up pretty well. However, as you hinted too, Narron holds to it way to much. Tonight's a perfect example. He splits up Griffey and Dunn with Conine. Griffey and Dunn are obviously better hitters, but he does it anyway.

There's advantages to splitting up the lefites, but when you put a guy like Conine between them it does more hurt then harm.

The platoon effect is a real one. For their careers, Griffey and Dunn both have OPS's that are roughly 10% lower against lefties than righties. Hamilton has yet to prove he can hit major league lefties. So the notion of splitting your lefties up is a reasonable one and it goes deeper than just worrying about a late inning LOOGY. Any lefty would have an advantage with those three guys in a row and a bonified LOOGY would have a much better chance of shutting the Reds down in a late inning, high leverage situation.

That being said though, as pointed out earlier, this team really doesn't have a quality right-handed bat that could break up Griffey and Dunn. The closest thing they have is EE's potential (and really that's as roughly a league average thirdbaseman).

Also, Hamilton really has no business in the 3 thru 5 slots. I might consider him in the 2 hole because he makes contact and has speed but even then, I'm not sure he can get on base enough. There are currently 8 Reds position players with at least 90 at bats who see more pitches per PA than Hamilton so despite the belief that he is patient and sees alot of pitches, that's not even an argument for him as a #2 hitter. Until he proves himself, Hamilton really should be no higher than #6 IMHO....

Driver62
05-17-2007, 03:15 PM
To me there is no advantage. If you can hit, you can hit and it makes no sense to put a .240 hitter in between your power hitters.
Besides, you still have to hit against the same pitcher. So what if we have lefties hitting 3, 4, and 5 or 3, 5, and 7.
I think managers think too much.

George Anderson
05-17-2007, 03:22 PM
I think managers think too much.

The bad ones do anyway.

Redsland
05-17-2007, 03:27 PM
Can anyone tell me the advantage of breaking up the lefty's in the lineup?
It inserts outs between your best hitters?

;)

registerthis
05-17-2007, 03:34 PM
Well said... I'd like to add that I've always found it funny that managers worry about that one time when the other manager brings in a lefty as opposed to the other 2 or 3 ABs that those hitters have...

That's a really good point too. Why worry about the seventh inning when you're wasting ABs in the first through the sixth?

Sea Ray
05-17-2007, 03:38 PM
I agree with Narron's thinking 'cause most teams do have a LH specialist in the pen. We've all seen them mow down the likes of Dunn and Griffey in late inning situations. Now the issue of whether he has a competent RH hitter to put in there gets back to the limited pieces he has to work with. I thought Phillips did pretty well in the cleanup hole even though that's not something we want to see for 162 games.

My problems with Narron are more along the lines of asking players to do things they don't do well like bunting. There are very few decent bunters on this team and until that changes, asking them to bunt is a low percentage call. I also have to hold the manager accountable for a team playing like it doesn't care.

It's poor play from guys like EE, Mike Stanton and Todd Coffey that make Narron's managerial moves look bad rather than vice versa.

registerthis
05-17-2007, 03:39 PM
That being said though, as pointed out earlier, this team really doesn't have a quality right-handed bat that could break up Griffey and Dunn. The closest thing they have is EE's potential (and really that's as roughly a league average thirdbaseman).

Right. In fact, the Reds haven't had a quality RH bat that you could feel comfortable inserting in the 3 or 4 spot for quite some time. Greg Vaughn was really the last one.

E_E *might* become a more consistent offensive threat, but his numbers last year alone don't really warrant that. Looking down into the minors, neither Bruce or Votto are right-handed batters. Beyond them, the pickings get pretty slim.

registerthis
05-17-2007, 03:43 PM
It's poor play from guys like EE, Mike Stanton and Todd Coffey that make Narron's managerial moves look bad rather than vice versa.

I'll agree that the team's play hasn't helped make Narron look any better. But there is never, ever an excuse for batting the likes of Hatteberg or Conine in the 3 or 4 spot. If the question comes down to batting Junior and Dunn back-to-back, or watching Jeff Conine bat cleanup, that decision should be a no-brainer.

BRM
05-17-2007, 03:50 PM
If the question comes down to batting Junior and Dunn back-to-back, or watching Jeff Conine bat cleanup, that decision should be a no-brainer.

From the cleanup spot:

Junior - .863 OPS in 49 plate appearances
Conine - .642 OPS in 50 plate appearances

Dunn has only had 4 plate appearances (1 game) in the cleanup spot. He's 1-3 with a walk and a homerun.

You are correct. It should be a no-brainer.

StillFunkyB
05-17-2007, 05:49 PM
The platoon effect is a real one. For their careers, Griffey and Dunn both have OPS's that are roughly 10% lower against lefties than righties. Hamilton has yet to prove he can hit major league lefties. So the notion of splitting your lefties up is a reasonable one and it goes deeper than just worrying about a late inning LOOGY. Any lefty would have an advantage with those three guys in a row and a bonified LOOGY would have a much better chance of shutting the Reds down in a late inning, high leverage situation.

That being said though, as pointed out earlier, this team really doesn't have a quality right-handed bat that could break up Griffey and Dunn. The closest thing they have is EE's potential (and really that's as roughly a league average thirdbaseman).

Also, Hamilton really has no business in the 3 thru 5 slots. I might consider him in the 2 hole because he makes contact and has speed but even then, I'm not sure he can get on base enough. There are currently 8 Reds position players with at least 90 at bats who see more pitches per PA than Hamilton so despite the belief that he is patient and sees alot of pitches, that's not even an argument for him as a #2 hitter. Until he proves himself, Hamilton really should be no higher than #6 IMHO....

Well said.