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ED44
05-17-2007, 10:24 PM
I found this over on Foxsports. I thought some of you may want to read it.


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6817896

PickOff
05-17-2007, 10:44 PM
I found this over on Foxsports. I thought some of you may want to read it.


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6817896


Interesting. The Reds would be unwise to question Narron's ability because Bochy has been successful as a "low key" manager. A dizzying intellect. Truly.

redsmetz
05-17-2007, 10:44 PM
The articles take on Narron. The comment about Bochy strikes a note with me. I've heard many folks here say there's a need for a firebrand type manager. I wondered about examples of managers who weren't that type and yet had success. I've wondered periodically about how Joe Torre at the onset of his career in Atlanta or St. Louis would have fared in an internet bulletin board world.


A strong, silent type is always an easy target when his team struggles. The Reds' seeming lethargy during their recent 2-11 slide left Narron open to such criticism. But the Giants' Bruce Bochy has proven that a manager with a low-key personality can be highly effective.

The Reds would be wise to avoid making the same mistake the Rangers did when they fired Narron after the 2002 season. The team's bullpen ranks 13th in the N.L. in ERA, its offense is ninth in runs per game and its clubhouse lacks veteran leadership.

Find better players, then judge the manager.

WMR
05-18-2007, 01:11 AM
Tony Soprano would love Jerry Narron.

reds44
05-18-2007, 01:19 AM
its offense is ninth in runs per game and its clubhouse lacks veteran leadership.

What the heck are guys like Conine, Hatteberg, Weathers, Stanton, and Castro here for then? All we hear about is how they've been through the wars etc.

BCubb2003
05-18-2007, 01:29 AM
It goes in cycles. Sometimes the guys need a hard guy to whip them into shape, even if they hate his guts. They play well at first that way, then they get fried and play tight and chafe at the rules. So you need a players' manager to get them to relax and play the way they're capable of. Until they get sloppy again.

hebroncougar
05-18-2007, 01:58 AM
How can anyone say it was a mistake for Texas to fire Narron??? He's proven exactly what since then?

Chris Sabowned
05-18-2007, 02:08 AM
Find better players, then judge the manager.

This is so true. We could bring in any manager in the league and the team would still lose. I don't think you can blame Narron.

redsmetz
05-18-2007, 07:22 AM
How can anyone say it was a mistake for Texas to fire Narron??? He's proven exactly what since then?

The writer, IMO, is tipping his hat to Narron and saying that he's very likely a pretty decent manager; but one who hasn't had lots of talent to manage with. Basically the line quoted later here about give him some decent players and then judge his ability as a manager.

bucksfan2
05-18-2007, 09:21 AM
The manager fits the team. When a team doesn't have a strong clubhouse presance then they need a fire ball manager. The reds really dont have a leader so a low key manager wont do it. A guy like Narron probably would do best on a good team that had a strong clubhouse leader.

durl
05-18-2007, 09:52 AM
You have to manage players and not all players are the same. Some need a kick in the pants while some need a pat on the back to get them motivated. A fire-breathing, veins-popping manager might help, but he also might hurt a team.

I do want to see some fire from this team. What will create that fire, I'm not sure.

This is my personal opinion, but I believe this team simply needs to relax. They need something to help them calm down, focus on their jobs, and forget their recent losing ways. Perhaps that would help them get into a good grove again.

TheWalls
05-18-2007, 10:05 AM
What the heck are guys like Conine, Hatteberg, Weathers, Stanton, and Castro here for then? All we hear about is how they've been through the wars etc.

All veterans to be sure, just not leaders. They don't command the respect of the younger players, nor do they have any kind of control over Dunn and Griffey who simply don't taking losing seriously enough for my taste.

Griffey's poor leadership, going back to his reputation in Seattle, is possibily the only criticism of this HOFer that I agree with. I think Jr. and Larkin contributed to a lot of Dunn's lackadasical attitude early in his career. He was a star QB in Texas, he has to have some leadership skills doesn't he?

I completely agree with the writer's assessment, there is a cavernous leadership void in the Reds locker room.

UC_Ken
05-18-2007, 10:14 AM
He was a star QB in Texas, he has to have some leadership skills doesn't he?

No, not all QB's are leaders. Vick certainly isn't. Peyton Manning after a playoff game slammed his O-line. I don't see Carson Palmer as a fiery leader type. Many QB's are leaders but being a QB doesn't make you a leader.

Nobody is a leader because of title or position. Leaders are leaders no matter what they do. If you're a janitor who busts your butt and helps others to do the same you're a leader. I agree Griffey isn't a leader but that isn't a criticism. Some people just go out and do their jobs and that's OK, you can't make someone what they're not. I think a bigger problem is when you have people in leadership positions who aren't leaders. Jerry Narron is not a leader and his job requires leadership skills that he doesn't posess. That's a much bigger problem than players lacking leadership skills.

redsmetz
05-18-2007, 10:20 AM
I think that's always been such a curious thing about Junior, his lack of leading in the clubhouse. It's never struck me as a selfish thing, but he's always emitted a "I'm just here to do my job" and it has come off as standoffish and lacksadasical attitude.

I think folks are right that we really lack that fire from some veteran player or another who can stir the pot and motivate folks. I don't think that always must come from the manager.

I wonder about Hatteberg, but he's only in his second year here. I'd love to see a tandem of him and Conine, but I don't know Conine's sensibilities along that line.

I think Durl might be right that this team needs to relax - it's playing too tight, I think. It's a heckuva an albatross to be traipsing around with, a losing streak like this.

osuceltic
05-18-2007, 10:20 AM
Bingo. A lot of this team's problems can be traced to the fact that its two most influential players and defacto leaders are low-energy punch-the-clock guys. The whole team takes on their personality -- and it has really ever since Junior arrived.

Doro
05-18-2007, 12:17 PM
we need Greg Vaughn, not really as a manager just around the clubhouse. Many people (players and personel) have said hes the best team leader they saw around the Reds since the 70s

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2007, 12:20 PM
What the heck are guys like Conine, Hatteberg, Weathers, Stanton, and Castro here for then? All we hear about is how they've been through the wars etc.

Gonzalez also qualifies.


All veterans to be sure, just not leaders. They don't command the respect of the younger players, nor do they have any kind of control over Dunn and Griffey who simply don't taking losing seriously enough for my taste.

What would you have them do? Smash bats? Wreck the clubhouse? Challenge teammates to a fight?

Just because they aren't demonstrative doesn't mean they don't take losing seriously.


Griffey's poor leadership, going back to his reputation in Seattle, is possibily the only criticism of this HOFer that I agree with. I think Jr. and Larkin contributed to a lot of Dunn's lackadasical attitude early in his career. He was a star QB in Texas, he has to have some leadership skills doesn't he?=

Larkin was lackadaisical? I just don't buy that.


I completely agree with the writer's assessment, there is a cavernous leadership void in the Reds locker room.

When things go bad, it's incredibly easy to blame intangibles like "veteran leadership", simply because you can't be proven wrong. However, I don't think "leadership" would prevent Stanton, Coffee, et al from making bad pitches.

M2
05-18-2007, 12:21 PM
On a separate note, do the Rockies even care?

They're 12th in the NL in scoring and 16th in pitching. They're 29th in MLB in DER. Meanwhile Clint Hurdle and Dan O'Dowd are left in place to continue running the franchise into the dirt. The only way I'd pay to go see that team is if I got good seats at minor league prices.

Chip R
05-18-2007, 12:23 PM
On a separate note, do the Rockies even care?

They're 12th in the NL in scoring and 16th in pitching. They're 29th in MLB in DER. Meanwhile Clint Hurdle and Dan O'Dowd are left in place to continue running the franchise into the dirt. The only way I'd pay to go see that team is if I got good seats at minor league prices.


Sad thing is, they beat the Reds 2 of 3 in Cincinnati.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 12:25 PM
On a separate note, do the Rockies even care?

They're 12th in the NL in scoring and 16th in pitching. They're 29th in MLB in DER. Meanwhile Clint Hurdle and Dan O'Dowd are left in place to continue running the franchise into the dirt. The only way I'd pay to go see that team is if I got good seats at minor league prices.

I'd say the Rockies have more talent than the Reds both at the MLB level and the minors.

It's just that the NL West is completely brutal as compared to the pathetic NL Central. If the Reds played in the NL West, they'd be 15-18 games out by now.

osuceltic
05-18-2007, 12:27 PM
we need Greg Vaughn, not really as a manager just around the clubhouse. Many people (players and personel) have said hes the best team leader they saw around the Reds since the 70s

We absolutely need a Greg Vaughn type -- a demanding natural leader who polices the team in a way the manager can't. I don't know who that is, however.

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2007, 12:27 PM
On a separate note, do the Rockies even care?

They're 12th in the NL in scoring and 16th in pitching. They're 29th in MLB in DER. Meanwhile Clint Hurdle and Dan O'Dowd are left in place to continue running the franchise into the dirt. The only way I'd pay to go see that team is if I got good seats at minor league prices.

On the plus side, they've got a microbrewery *right in the stadium*!

bucksfan2
05-18-2007, 12:30 PM
Larkin wasn't a leader? What do you want out of a leader? He got bashed for wanting a trade out of cincinnati but he held the front office accountable for not going out and siginig players in attempt to win. If I am on a team and the people above me are not doing what needs to be done to help me win heck yea i would want my leader to go to the boss and say we need more from you.

M2
05-18-2007, 12:31 PM
Sad thing is, they beat the Reds 2 of 3 in Cincinnati.

To the Reds' credit, the franchise at least seems aware that constant futility isn't the goal. I'm reasonably sure Castellini will swing the ax if Narron and Krivsky can't produce. The Colorado franchise seems perfectly content to finish 5th in the NL West forever.

M2
05-18-2007, 12:37 PM
I'd say the Rockies have more talent than the Reds both at the MLB level and the minors.

It's just that the NL West is completely brutal as compared to the pathetic NL Central. If the Reds played in the NL West, they'd be 15-18 games out by now.

I'll say it again, 16th in pitching, 12th in scoring, 29th in MLB in defense. That's a dog of a team. I don't care if their division is better, the Rockies are an embarrassment.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 01:05 PM
I'll say it again, 16th in pitching, 12th in scoring, 29th in MLB in defense. That's a dog of a team. I don't care if their division is better, the Rockies are an embarrassment.

Yeah, they suck. But don't think for a second that the Reds, if flip-flopped with the Rocks, wouldn't look just like the Rockies right now (16th pitching, 12th in scoring). They'd have already played the Padres, Dodgers and Giants a bunch of times by this point and would be staring at a monster deficit.

The only reason the Reds aren't 16th in pitching and 12th in scoring is that they get to face weak offensive clubs like the Pirates and Astros repeatedly and the Cubs in cold weather.

The Reds are every bit the dog that the Rockies are.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 01:06 PM
To the Reds' credit, the franchise at least seems aware that constant futility isn't the goal. I'm reasonably sure Castellini will swing the ax if Narron and Krivsky can't produce. The Colorado franchise seems perfectly content to finish 5th in the NL West forever.

I don't think Castellini cares a bit about the future of this franchise beyond the turnstiles and concession sales.

The guy's been all talk, IMO.

M2
05-18-2007, 01:09 PM
I don't think Castellini cares a bit about the future of this franchise beyond the turnstiles and concession sales.

The guy's been all talk, IMO.

If it's turnstiles and concessions that he cares about then he should be mortified at the moment.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 01:21 PM
If it's turnstiles and concessions that he cares about then he should be mortified at the moment.

He's sold on a Twins' plan cooked up by Krivsky. Wait till the farmhands are ready and pray that the rest of the division sucks so bad that the team can hang around till July.

He actually IS a patient man I'm guessing.

M2
05-18-2007, 01:23 PM
He's sold on a Twins' plan cooked up by Krivsky. Wait till the farmhands are ready and pray that the rest of the division sucks so bad that the team can hang around till July.

He actually IS a patient man I'm guessing.

That's a seven-year plan though. I'm betting he's not that patient.

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2007, 01:24 PM
That's a seven-year plan though. I'm betting he's not that patient.

A seven-year plan predicated on lots of bad seasons and high draft picks.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 01:25 PM
That's a seven-year plan though. I'm betting he's not that patient.

I doubt he cares as long as attendance improves marginally each year. Think about it--all the heavy lifting this offseason was announcers and a hyper-pimping of Redsfest. Add in a huge leap in the number o promotional nights at the ballpark, and I've done all the dot-connecting I need to do vis. Castellini.

M2
05-18-2007, 01:36 PM
I doubt he cares as long as attendance improves marginally each year. Think about it--all the heavy lifting this offseason was announcers and a hyper-pimping of Redsfest. Add in a huge leap in the number o promotional nights at the ballpark, and I've done all the dot-connecting I need to do vis. Castellini.

He did raise payroll. Didn't get spent well, but he did raise it.

And if this team stays in the basement, then he'll be looking at something like a 10% drop in attendance by the end of the season.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 01:41 PM
And if this team stays in the basement, then he'll be looking at something like a 10% drop in attendance by the end of the season.

More Freel bobbleheads and Josh Hamilton foam bats.

Matt700wlw
05-18-2007, 03:17 PM
Find better players, then judge the manager.

Honestly? I think this team does have enough talent to win this division, however, they have no fire, no life, and no direction...

And if they don't have enough talent to win this division, they stil have no fire, no life, and no direction...

bucksfan2
05-18-2007, 03:17 PM
He did raise payroll. Didn't get spent well, but he did raise it.

And if this team stays in the basement, then he'll be looking at something like a 10% drop in attendance by the end of the season.

Every year you basically have to raise payroll by a certain amount. With the way the economics of baseball work each year the same players cost a little more. So yes he did raise payroll but he didn't really and anything of significance.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 03:25 PM
Every year you basically have to raise payroll by a certain amount. With the way the economics of baseball work each year the same players cost a little more. So yes he did raise payroll but he didn't really and anything of significance.

Yep. Cost of operating raise was all it was. Not a true payroll "bump," as in "get me a 20-game winner" bump.

M2
05-18-2007, 03:28 PM
Every year you basically have to raise payroll by a certain amount. With the way the economics of baseball work each year the same players cost a little more. So yes he did raise payroll but he didn't really and anything of significance.

That's a fair point. The $8M jump was probably well within the bounds of expanding league revenues and the payroll hadn't really budged since the club moved into the GAB (down in 2004, but in the $60M range in 2003, 2005 and 2006). This while league revenues were going through the roof.

So I agree it was hardly a radical increase on Castellini's part. Still, it was an increase.

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2007, 04:26 PM
Yep. Cost of operating raise was all it was. Not a true payroll "bump," as in "get me a 20-game winner" bump.

BTW - Ted Lilly = 53 IP, 48 K, 8 BB, 0.90 WHIP, and 2.53 ERA thus far. Unfortunately, he's not on pace to win 20 games.

Matt700wlw
05-18-2007, 04:28 PM
BTW - Ted Lilly = 53 IP, 48 K, 8 BB, 0.90 WHIP, and 2.53 ERA thus far.

Arroyo has to be close to that.....and cheaper.

Johnny Footstool
05-18-2007, 04:32 PM
Arroyo has to be close to that.....and cheaper.

Ah, but we were talking about what Cast could have acquired with the $8 million salary bump. Lilly isn't making much more than that.

hebroncougar
05-18-2007, 04:53 PM
BTW - Ted Lilly = 53 IP, 48 K, 8 BB, 0.90 WHIP, and 2.53 ERA thus far. Unfortunately, he's not on pace to win 20 games.

And he would be watching the bullpen blow the game after he left in the 7th, or getting beat 2-1 against the Dodgers.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 05:07 PM
BTW - Ted Lilly = 53 IP, 48 K, 8 BB, 0.90 WHIP, and 2.53 ERA thus far. Unfortunately, he's not on pace to win 20 games.

Well, you know what I mean...not necessarily "a 20-game winner" but a pitcher of similar caliber. Someone who can allow a team to win every time he takes the ball.

Matt700wlw
05-18-2007, 05:08 PM
Well, you know what I mean...not necessarily "a 20-game winner" but a pitcher of similar caliber. Someone who can allow a team to win every time he takes the ball.

You mean like the Reds starting staff, for the most part, has?

Falls City Beer
05-18-2007, 05:15 PM
You mean like the Reds starting staff, for the most part, has?

Except for the last three slots in the rotation. And really, until his most recent start in San Diego, Harang has been no walk in the park.

The rotation has been okay, but recently with Lohse/Belisle, the cracks are really starting to show.

Matt700wlw
05-18-2007, 05:20 PM
Despite Harang's rather inflated ERA, he is 5-2.....if the other guys could get the run support he has, this team may be in a little better shape....


Well, until the 8th inning :p: