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View Full Version : Alex Gonzalez a great defensive SS?



Blitz Dorsey
05-18-2007, 07:57 PM
Maybe he's just had a rough first couple months, but Alex Gonzalez has been about average defensively thus far with the Reds. That's a far cry from the high praise I've heard him receive.

He can make the spectacular play, no doubt. But I see him miss far too many routine plays. He just seems to lack concentration at times.

Maybe I am being too harsh since I like the signing of Gonzo very much. But I would like to see him step it up big time defensively.

Always Red
05-18-2007, 08:02 PM
Well, he's better than what we've had lately. I've generally been happy with his bat, he's made some great plays, and fumbled some he should have had.

I heard that Francona said he's the best SS he's ever seen. IF so, why didn't the BoSox resign him?

But he's not Dave Concepcion or Barry Larkin.

edabbs44
05-18-2007, 08:02 PM
Just a flat out waste of $14 million.

reds44
05-18-2007, 08:06 PM
Well, he's better than what we've had lately. I've generally been happy with his bat, he's made some great plays, and fumbled some he should have had.

I heard that Francona said he's the best SS he's ever seen. IF so, why didn't the BoSox resign him?

But he's not Dave Concepcion or Barry Larkin.
He can't hit.

He's playing bad D to compound it right now.

CTA513
05-18-2007, 08:07 PM
Just a flat out waste of $14 million.

Not nearly as bad as Milton.

Always Red
05-18-2007, 08:16 PM
He can't hit.

He's playing bad D to compound it right now.

Yeah, I know. Just like that 3B who got sent back to AAA...

He's hit well all year thus far, and he's been in a terrible slump (coming back to form?). In another thread I questioned why he's hitting above Dunn in the order. Gonzo is very streaky, he's either good or bad as a hitter, not steady at all.

He's been the best fielding SS this team has had since Barry Larkin.

He had a really good Ab in the first inning.

I was at the Reds-Astros game last Monday night; he hit two HR's into LF, where I was sitting. He can hit. Sometimes.

Chad Moeller can't hit. Jason LaRue can't hit.

Gonzo can hit sometimes; just like Edwin can hit, sometimes. ;)

Blitz Dorsey
05-18-2007, 08:22 PM
Yeah, I've been pleasently surprised with his hitting. I just think the talk of "best defensive shortstop I've ever seen (Francona)" was way overstated. And it wasn't just from Francona, others talked up his defense as well as not just being very good, but special. I just don't see it.

Redsland
05-18-2007, 08:34 PM
Mostly average or so, but with an occasional web gem thrown in.

He's kind of like Castro. They both look like they play the position better than they do.

edabbs44
05-18-2007, 08:41 PM
Not nearly as bad as Milton.

A waste is a waste.

WMR
05-18-2007, 08:42 PM
http://www.jimcarreyonline.com/images/albums/movies/cableguy/stills/cableguy-still12.jpg

"Dry land is not a myth!"

Wheelhouse
05-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Cleveland has a nice team--the fans there are going to have a fun summer.

blumj
05-18-2007, 09:13 PM
He did have a great defensive season last year, he's just not playing as well this season. Neither is Mike Lowell, BTW. Maybe, after being together for so long, they're both suffering from some kind of fielder's separation anxiety.

CTA513
05-18-2007, 09:14 PM
A waste is a waste.

Milton was the bigger waste.

Mitri
05-18-2007, 09:25 PM
The Gonzalez money was not a waste and is absolutely the least of this team's worries right now. His defense is above average with a few really great plays a week thrown in. I'll take that, especially considering what the Reds have dealt with for the past six years or so added with what they have in the system. His bat has been much better than expected. We can't blame him for Narron's misplacement of him in the lineups.
Personally I'm glad he'll be around for the next few years and just hope somebody is added or developed in that span who can take his place.

edabbs44
05-18-2007, 09:27 PM
Milton was the bigger waste.

Makes no difference and makes Gonzalez's money no better spent.

I guess Milton wasn't that bad when you look at Pavano?

AtomicDumpling
05-18-2007, 11:42 PM
He's kind of like Castro. They both look like they play the position better than they do.

I agree 100 %

Gonzo plays with a flair and a flourish that impresses the casual observer. He makes a lot of zippy hand motions. I have seen him make some good plays, but nothing even close to spectacular. I have also seen him make some very poor plays. One example today was the ball he dove way too far on and the ball went between his body and his glove. He could have made the play on that one -- it would have been a very good play but I think most shortstops would have gotten it.

Gonzalez has more errors and a lower fielding percentage than Felipe Lopez this year so far. LOL

I think Gonzalez is a quality, reliable, solid shortstop. He came in here very over-rated though. I heard several Reds people as well as Francona say he was the best they had ever seen. All I can say to that is "No freakin' way".

Ron Madden
05-19-2007, 12:04 AM
From what I've seen AGon, he couldn't hold a candle to Davey Concepcion.

jimbo
05-19-2007, 12:19 AM
Why is it that when EE is being discussed, errors mean little and fielding percentage is a worthless stat, yet when Gonzo's defense is being discussed a different standard is used?

Regardless of the errors that Gonzo has made, I think he's played outstanding defensively and is much better than what's been at SS since Larkin.

Ron Madden
05-19-2007, 12:29 AM
There is more to defense than errors.

Gonzo is good at SS but not great as advertised.

jimbo
05-19-2007, 12:32 AM
Gonzo is good at SS but not great as advertised.

That's a matter of opinion.

Ron Madden
05-19-2007, 12:33 AM
That's a matter of opinion.

Yes it is.

CTA513
05-19-2007, 01:43 AM
Gonzalez has more errors and a lower fielding percentage than Felipe Lopez this year so far. LOL



Gonzalez at SS in 2007: 328.1 Innings, 6 errors, .963 FPCT
Lopez at SS in 2007: 239 Innings, 5 errors, .952 FPCT

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2007, 02:56 AM
Gonzalez at SS in 2007: 328.1 Innings, 6 errors, .963 FPCT
Lopez at SS in 2007: 239 Innings, 5 errors, .952 FPCT

^^ Conveniently ignores the 0 errors and 1.000 fielding percentage in 107 innings that Lopez has logged at second base.
;)

By the way, I did not say Lopez is anywhere near the fielder that Gonzo is -- because he isn't. I was just showing that Gonzo hasn't exactly solidified the Reds' defense.

Gonzo is on a pace to make more errors this year than Lopez ever has in a season. I doubt that pace continues, but that is what Gonzo has given us so far.

sonny
05-19-2007, 05:54 AM
^^ Conveniently ignores the 0 errors and 1.000 fielding percentage in 107 innings that Lopez has logged at second base.
;)

By the way, I did not say Lopez is anywhere near the fielder that Gonzo is -- because he isn't. I was just showing that Gonzo hasn't exactly solidified the Reds' defense.

Gonzo is on a pace to make more errors this year than Lopez ever has in a season. I doubt that pace continues, but that is what Gonzo has given us so far.

You could probably count on one hand the combined dazzling plays and runs saved while Lopez was with the Reds. Errors don't tell us everything about the ability of a fielder. The silky smoothness of the plays Gonzalez makes is a stark contrast to the adventures we witnessed years in the past.

Ltlabner
05-19-2007, 06:37 AM
Why is it that when EE is being discussed, errors mean little and fielding percentage is a worthless stat, yet when Gonzo's defense is being discussed a different standard is used?

Regardless of the errors that Gonzo has made, I think he's played outstanding defensively and is much better than what's been at SS since Larkin.

Jimbo, are you suggesting that some folks might have an adgenda regarding EE? For shame!

I think Gonzo is what many of us said he was. A good/solid, but not eliete feilding SS combined with a bat with some pop that might not be as ugly as his batting line implied. He's projected out at a 12 VORP at the plate, which while it isn't world class, it's also not the black hole myth people like to believe.

He's had errors so far, and mental lapses. He's also made some very nice plays where he's been deep in the hole and thrown the runner out while still moving towards third. Lopez doesn't make that play in 1,000 years.

But with such a small sample size, and the mental effects of how the team is playing right now, I'd reserve judgement on Gonzo until better data is available.

sonny
05-19-2007, 09:09 AM
He's had errors so far, and mental lapses. He's also made some very nice plays where he's been deep in the hole and thrown the runner out while still moving towards third. Lopez doesn't make that play in 1,000 years.

But with such a small sample size, and the mental effects of how the team is playing right now, I'd reserve judgement on Gonzo until better data is available.

Ding Ding Ding!

Falls City Beer
05-19-2007, 09:14 AM
Gonzalez is getting paid for what he could do 4 years ago.

sonny
05-19-2007, 09:29 AM
He's not doing the job? I don't see the argument.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2007, 01:29 PM
Just going by the title of the thread -- "Alex Gonzalez a great defensive SS".

I would answer this question with a clear NO.

He is a good defensive SS, not even close to a great one. I have seen him make some good plays. But I have not seen any "dazzling" plays like someone above mentioned. I have seen far more dazzling plays from our opponents than from Gonzo. Khalil Green made a couple of plays at SS against us this week that Gonzo would not have made. Furcal the same last week. Gonzo is a solid SS that plays with panache and flair. He is an upgrade over Lopez.

I would take Concepcion or Larkin over Gonzo for sure.

jimbo
05-19-2007, 02:30 PM
I have seen him make some good plays. But I have not seen any "dazzling" plays like someone above mentioned. I have seen far more dazzling plays from our opponents than from Gonzo.

I can only guess then that you have not watched every game because I have seen a handful of outstanding plays this year by Gonzo that were just sick. Check out the link below and look at Gonzo's defensive plays on April 21 and 24 for a couple of them. If they aren't the definition of a dazzling play then I don't know what is.

Would I call him a "great" SS, probably not. When I think of great defensive shortstops I think of guys like Ozzie Smith. He is though a very good SS and hands down better than anything the Reds have had since Larkin.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=cin&ym=200704

TC81190
05-20-2007, 07:08 PM
Gonzalez has the range to take away hits that would be be into LF and CF tht no other SS, and I mean any SS, would be able to get to. He has been amazing so far.

bucksfan2
05-21-2007, 10:25 AM
Gonzalez has the range to take away hits that would be be into LF and CF tht no other SS, and I mean any SS, would be able to get to. He has been amazing so far.

He has not been amazing so far. He has made quite a few good defensive plays but he has booted several easy playes. One I rememeber led to the big inning against Houston when he booted a double play ball. He looks slick in the field and is fun to watch but he has booted too many balls so far to live up to his best defensive ss reputation.

44Magnum
05-21-2007, 12:24 PM
I still like the Gonzo move. He is the slickest SS the Reds have has in years.