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Will
05-19-2007, 03:59 PM
I've seen all the posts on Narron and how he needs to be gone. My question to the nay sayers is, exactly what is he doing wrong ? In my opinion he has tried everything with this bunch except putting himself and the other coaches in the lineup. Here are some reasons it's not his fault this team is bad.

1. He can't pitch for the Bull Pen.
2. He can't hit for the players.
3. He has tried every combination of line ups and batting orders possible.
4. He shouldn't have to motivate high paid professionals to excel at their craft.
5. He has to have the quality players to be able to manage them and win.
6. I haven't seen him make a call that cost us a game.
7. He has even started leaving the starters in longer than the norm to try and stay out of the Bull Pen.

savafan
05-19-2007, 04:05 PM
3. He has tried every combination of line ups and batting orders possible.


Do you like Adam Dunn batting 6th? Alex Gonzalez in the cleanup spot? Juan Castro starting?

Will
05-19-2007, 04:09 PM
Do you like Adam Dunn batting 6th? Alex Gonzalez in the cleanup spot? Juan Castro starting?

Didn't say which lineup I liked. All I said is he's trying different combinations to try to get something that will work.

redsupport
05-19-2007, 04:10 PM
he is stubborn, past obstinate ,continues to run the same combinations out there, is a proven loser and spews out 1950's bromides about beteran leadership. In short he is a facelss, namelss mediocrity as a manager inspiring no one, performing as a manger analagously to his playing career. A useless cheap retread. And I love his bringing in of Coffey and Stanton when the season had meaning in April. Now he gets to do more social experimentation as the season is already meaningless in Mid may. I also applaud his handling of EE. That makes sense, play Castro, an effete, impotent scrub at 3rd base nonetheless. When the moron writes his name at third base in the line up card, what quantity do he think he is getting from Castro,a player so bad that Vin Scully even lampoons him on the air.

vic715
05-19-2007, 04:17 PM
Do you like Adam Dunn batting 6th? Alex Gonzalez in the cleanup spot? Juan Castro starting?

Thats what gripes me the most. He keeps hitting Dunn and Hamilton behind Gonzo. If they were winning and scoring runs than maybe, but after a two weeks of losing its time wake up.Gonzo was signed to play defense not to hit 5th.

Will
05-19-2007, 04:20 PM
he is stubborn, past obstinate ,continues to run the same combinations out there, is a proven loser and spews out 1950's bromides about beteran leadership. In short he is a facelss, namelss mediocrity as a manager inspiring no one, performing as a manger analagously to his playing career. A useless cheap retread. And I love his bringing in of Coffey and Stanton when the season had meaning in April. Now he gets to do more social experimentation as the season is already meaningless in Mid may. I also applaud his handling of EE. That makes sense, play Castro, an effete, impotent scrub at 3rd base nonetheless. When the moron writes his name at third base in the line up card, what quantity do he think he is getting from Castro,a player so bad that Vin Scully even lampoons him on the air.

Nice points. So basically we hire another manager and he will make Gonzalez a top hitter at SS, Dunn hit for average,in the clutch and be able to play LF like an average Major Leaguer, the Bull Pen will miraculously be good, EE will play like Brooks Robinson, Ross will become Johnny Bench,ect.,ect., ect. This team doesn't have the personel to win and firing Narron won't change that.

DTCromer
05-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Do you like Adam Dunn batting 6th? Alex Gonzalez in the cleanup spot? Juan Castro starting?

I don't mind Dunn hitting 6th, but I don't like Castro starting and Gonzo hitting cleanup.

My biggest problem with Jerry is that his absolute refusal to put our best lineup out there simply because there's a LHP on the mound. I can't remember the last time we didn't have Griffey/Hamilton/Dunn in the lineup on the same night w/ a LHP.

It's simply laughable to not play all three of those guys every night.

savafan
05-19-2007, 04:20 PM
And to think, our biggest fear in the offseason was that Narron would bat Gonzo leadoff.

jimbo
05-19-2007, 04:45 PM
This team doesn't have the personel to win and firing Narron won't change that.

Now let's not be letting common sense get in the way of a good Narron bashing.

Will
05-19-2007, 04:55 PM
Now let's not be letting common sense get in the way of a good Narron bashing.

You may be right, that would throw a rock in the gears ;)

Highlifeman21
05-19-2007, 05:41 PM
I've seen all the posts on Narron and how he needs to be gone. My question to the nay sayers is, exactly what is he doing wrong ? In my opinion he has tried everything with this bunch except putting himself and the other coaches in the lineup. Here are some reasons it's not his fault this team is bad.

1. He can't pitch for the Bull Pen.
2. He can't hit for the players.
3. He has tried every combination of line ups and batting orders possible.
4. He shouldn't have to motivate high paid professionals to excel at their craft.
5. He has to have the quality players to be able to manage them and win.
6. I haven't seen him make a call that cost us a game.
7. He has even started leaving the starters in longer than the norm to try and stay out of the Bull Pen.

1. He can't, but he can make better selections as to which arm to bring out of the pen. He doesn't play the matchups very well at all, IMO.

2. He sure doesn't hit, but he can make better hitting strategy decisions. I understand they're all major leaguers, but don't call for a bunt with a guy who can't get the bunt down b/c it's out of his normal repetoire.

3. Trying combinations is great, but trying to mold a cohesive unit is better, IMO. Unfortunately we don't have a legitimate 2 spot hitter, but we have a quasi leadoff guy, and we have guys suited for the 3-5 spots. The problem is when he bats those guys that should be in the 3-5 in other spots. He does this quite often. Also, having Norris Hopper and Juan Castro start ballgames is just criminally stupid. Narron can't honestly or sincerely tell us we have a chance to win with those two in the lineup.

4. It's becoming clear this team has zero faith in Narron, so he should try everything possible to him to motivate his team. If anything, he's great at killing their phyches and egos. He's really handling that EE situation well, isn't he? Managers should motivate their players, regardless of salary of the player(s).

5. He has some quality players, but he's putting them in situations to fail rather than succeed. If you have no faith in your bullpen, then tell the GM to get you different guys, or promote some guys from AAA. Refusing to use what you have is unprofessional, IMO. Play to your players' collective strengths, rather than expose their weaknesses.

6. Did you see the game where he brought Arroyo back in the 9th after pitching 110 pitches rather than going to the bullpen? Did you see the game when he asked EE to bunt? Narron makes bad decisions, period.

7. Right now we are a sub .400 ballclub. Why on Earth would you tax your starters rather than go to the pen for auditions? Don't blow out starters' arms b/c you have no faith in your pen. Protect Harang and Arroyo, and possibly Lohse. Let's all be glad that Homer isn't up, or else I'm sure we would quickly get used to him having 120+ pitch outings on a regular basis.

Legion of Dunn
05-19-2007, 05:42 PM
He's may not be to blame for this mess, but ultimately he's the man who is responsible. Those are two different things, although people find it hard to separate them at times.

When I watch the Reds play, I see a fundamentally atrocious ballclub that shows very little fire to compete. It's hard to tell they're in a tailspin right now because nobody seems to care. The clubhouse has zero leadership, and it's completely evident that none is coming from the manager's chair.

That's why Narron should be gone.

jimbo
05-19-2007, 05:51 PM
He's may not be to blame for this mess, but ultimately he's the man who is responsible.

I disagree, I think it ultimately falls in the laps of the players who are the ones not getting the job done. I seriously doubt any manager, no matter how many different tweaks to the lineup, bullpen useage, etc., would be able to squeeze out any more wins from this team than Narron.

Rotater Cuff
05-19-2007, 06:40 PM
I've seen all the posts on Narron and how he needs to be gone. My question to the nay sayers is, exactly what is he doing wrong ?

4. He shouldn't have to motivate high paid professionals to excel at their craft.


Good point. Wish Lou Pinella had you to advise him in 1990 when he came out, went berserk and pulled up the bases and stomped on them.
Or when Pete Rose (remember him, manager who didn't like to lose) bumped an umpire in a raging argument and got booted and fined.
They didn't have to motivate highly paid professionals. But they did anyway. Seemed to work well too, instead of that bloodless cool that watches the team sink into the bottom of the worst division in the league.
Ever remember a team Pete Rose was on that finished last. Ever?

dougflynn23
05-19-2007, 06:46 PM
:) A manager sets the tone, expectations, and the climate in which a team or unit operates. If I am ae employee (player) on an underperforming team and see a perceived lack of urgency or anger by my leader in regard to our situation, I could very easily join into the malaise.

Matt700wlw
05-19-2007, 06:46 PM
Good point. Wish Lou Pinella had you to advise him in 1990 when he came out, went berserk and pulled up the bases and stomped on them.
Or when Pete Rose (remember him, manager who didn't like to lose) bumped an umpire in a raging argument and got booted and fined.
They didn't have to motivate highly paid professionals. But they did anyway. Seemed to work well too, instead of that bloodless cool that watches the team sink into the bottom of the worst division in the league.
Ever remember a team Pete Rose was on that finished last. Ever?


No but I remember the once loser last place Reds all of a sudden became a contender under Pete Rose.

Sure, they finished 2nd every year, but they were a contender, and then out of nowhere comes in Lou and finishes the job.

Good times.

jojo
05-19-2007, 11:04 PM
:) A manager sets the tone, expectations, and the climate in which a team or unit operates. If I am ae employee (player) on an underperforming team and see a perceived lack of urgency or anger by my leader in regard to our situation, I could very easily join into the malaise.

wowsers.....with all due respect, i'm not hiring YOU.....

WMR
05-19-2007, 11:32 PM
he is stubborn, past obstinate ,continues to run the same combinations out there, is a proven loser and spews out 1950's bromides about beteran leadership. In short he is a facelss, namelss mediocrity as a manager inspiring no one, performing as a manger analagously to his playing career. A useless cheap retread. And I love his bringing in of Coffey and Stanton when the season had meaning in April. Now he gets to do more social experimentation as the season is already meaningless in Mid may. I also applaud his handling of EE. That makes sense, play Castro, an effete, impotent scrub at 3rd base nonetheless. When the moron writes his name at third base in the line up card, what quantity do he think he is getting from Castro,a player so bad that Vin Scully even lampoons him on the air.

This is the ultimate stream of consciousness lambasting I've ever had the pleasure of reading. Pulchritudinous.

jojo
05-20-2007, 12:03 AM
This is the ultimate stream of consciousness lambasting I've ever had the pleasure of reading. Pulchritudinous.

"I have no freakin' idea what he just said", thought jojo the strapping, athletic hulk of all that is man as he read WMR's post.

Redlegs
05-20-2007, 12:47 AM
he is stubborn, past obstinate ,continues to run the same combinations out there, is a proven loser and spews out 1950's bromides about beteran leadership. In short he is a facelss, namelss mediocrity as a manager inspiring no one, performing as a manger analagously to his playing career. A useless cheap retread. And I love his bringing in of Coffey and Stanton when the season had meaning in April. Now he gets to do more social experimentation as the season is already meaningless in Mid may. I also applaud his handling of EE. That makes sense, play Castro, an effete, impotent scrub at 3rd base nonetheless. When the moron writes his name at third base in the line up card, what quantity do he think he is getting from Castro,a player so bad that Vin Scully even lampoons him on the air.
Thank you, Mr. Webster.

As for Castro, I disagree with you. I think he can play.

Doro
05-20-2007, 12:55 AM
I dont blame Narron for any of this. Hes given a team with no bullpen along with a bunch of major league players who cant even lay down a sac bunt.

WVRedsFan
05-20-2007, 02:35 AM
I've seen all the posts on Narron and how he needs to be gone. My question to the nay sayers is, exactly what is he doing wrong ? In my opinion he has tried everything with this bunch except putting himself and the other coaches in the lineup. Here are some reasons it's not his fault this team is bad.

1. He can't pitch for the Bull Pen.

But he could manage it better (his second biggest fault--pitching the same guys over and over in failure is not good management)

2. He can't hit for the players.

But he could put a better lineup on the field instead of batting Gonzo 4th or 5th and Dunn 6th. He could also leave Encarnacion with the big club and leave Castro on the bench, but that's being picky)

3. He has tried every combination of line ups and batting orders possible.

Part of the problem, if you ask me.

4. He shouldn't have to motivate high paid professionals to excel at their craft.
Then what is the purpose of having a manager? Heck, just hire 20+ players and let them go out and play. No need to motivate or get the team going. They can do it on their own. Right.

5. He has to have the quality players to be able to manage them and win.
Then it's the GM's fault, but he is untouchable. Not to mention that Narron and Krivsky are "close". So close that he gave Narron an extention before he had really proven himself.

6. I haven't seen him make a call that cost us a game.
Look closer.

7. He has even started leaving the starters in longer than the norm to try and stay out of the Bull Pen.
While some pitchers have almost never been in a game.

I admit that Jerry Narron isn't the whole problem, but he's part of it.

redsupport
05-20-2007, 02:49 AM
Castro is an impuissant, attenuated, impotent amalgam of lithopedic range and formicary productivity

DannyB
05-20-2007, 09:53 AM
I've seen all the posts on Narron and how he needs to be gone. My question to the nay sayers is, exactly what is he doing wrong ? In my opinion he has tried everything with this bunch except putting himself and the other coaches in the lineup. Here are some reasons it's not his fault this team is bad.

1. He can't pitch for the Bull Pen.
2. He can't hit for the players.
3. He has tried every combination of line ups and batting orders possible.
4. He shouldn't have to motivate high paid professionals to excel at their craft.
5. He has to have the quality players to be able to manage them and win.
6. I haven't seen him make a call that cost us a game.
7. He has even started leaving the starters in longer than the norm to try and stay out of the Bull Pen.

What has he done right?
17-26
9 games out
Last place

WMR
05-20-2007, 11:20 AM
Castro is an impuissant, attenuated, impotent amalgam of lithopedic range and formicary productivity

redsupport I can't read your posts in this thread without starting to giggle. Yes, I just admitted to giggling.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Castro is an impuissant, attenuated, impotent amalgam of lithopedic range and formicary productivity

I don't feel so smart anymore....I need a dictionary.

Marc D
05-20-2007, 12:36 PM
JN's merits and weaknesses have been beaten to death on here. Its not his fault the team isn't good but it is his fault he doesn't get them to play hard or smart.

I have a question of my own for those who support Narron. What on earth do we have to lose by firing him? He doesn't pitch, hit, run, bunt and isn't responsible for motivating the team so essentially he's just a good luck charm sitting on the bench right?

Well based on his cummulative body of work I'd say prudence dictates we explore an alternative source of good luck.

Will
05-20-2007, 01:52 PM
While I stated some reasons Narron isn't to blame, I am not a Narron fan. I do however feel he is being overly roasted for this team's short comings. I would like to see him given a chance to manage a team with more talent. The funny thing isn't Narron can't win with some fans here. If he goes hard core with a player (EE), then he doesn't know how to handle players. If he doesn't get animated over a bad call or a player screw up, then he's too soft. If he calls on our crappy pen and we lose, he shoulda left the starter in. If he leaves the starter in, then he's not giving the pen enough work to get good. Narron is in a no win situation at this point. What ever he does is going to be wrong because this team is an accident waiting to happen and so far they are wrecking in most cases.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2007, 02:02 PM
I would say he had some pretty good talent in Texas, and didn't do squat there...

The pitching staff may have been iffy, but offensively he had Pudge, A-Rod, and Rafeal Palmiero for starters......

jojo
05-20-2007, 02:03 PM
I would say he had some pretty good talent in Texas, and didn't do squat there...

The pitching staff may have been iffy, but offensively he had Pudge, A-Rod, and Rafeal Palmiero for starters......

His teams in Texas did outperform their pythags

redsupport
05-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Narron is the synthesis of old world bromides, mixed with the milquetoast personality of Bud Abbott. He is a curmudgeon, a lifetime non performer best deployed as scorekeeper for a machine pitch B level of talent

Will
05-20-2007, 02:34 PM
Narron is the synthesis of old world bromides, mixed with the milquetoast personality of Bud Abbott. He is a curmudgeon, a lifetime non performer best deployed as scorekeeper for a machine pitch B level of talent

Well we do have the B level talent. Note Dunn holding the ball in LF a moment ago to allow a double.

butlerbulldogs
05-20-2007, 04:47 PM
I don't know if anyone noticed, but in the 4th, with no one out and a man on third...narron had the infield playing in, so a would be out ended up being a single prolonging the inning and the chance that things could get more out of control...in that situation you concede the run and work on damage control

mth123
05-20-2007, 04:56 PM
I don't know if anyone noticed, but in the 4th, with no one out and a man on third...narron had the infield playing in, so a would be out ended up being a single prolonging the inning and the chance that things could get more out of control...in that situation you concede the run and work on damage control

I noticed and was thinking the same.

bucksfan2
05-21-2007, 11:39 AM
Look at the stat lines for Jr, Dunn, Hamilton, Arroyo, Phillips, etc. and tell me at the beginning of the season you wouldn't have accepted that. I am sorry the lineup yesterday of Castro and Moeller at the bottom is worse than a lot of national leauge lineups with a pitcher in there. Why put a lineup like that together when you are going against one of the better teams in baseball??

Narron is the boss and it is his job to put the team he has in the best position to win. Many can argue but I do not think he does so. The bullpen has been horiable but how man times did Narron run Coffey and Stanton out there in pressure situations when they flat out have struggled in that situation? Why in the world has Hatty ever hit in the 4 hole? Whe did Gonzo ever bat in front of Dunn? There are too many questionable things that he has done this year for the reds to continue to run him out as the manager.