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Boss-Hog
05-21-2007, 07:17 PM
GIK and I have already received numerous private messages and emails from members who previously had access ORG posting access and no longer do, as of today. I can definitely understand your frustration with that - I really can. However, allow me to at least explain why we felt this was a necessary change for the site in the long run.

When the reputation system was implemented, the variables we were using kept users from getting promoted to the ORG too quickly because reputation "power" was fairly low, since the system was in its infancy. However, speaking in hindsight, as the system evolved and reputation scores climbed higher and higher, posters began to gain access rather easily - I can think of a few non-members that complained about the reputation system, so a few ORG members left positive reputation for them, and before you knew it, they were in the ORG. We also so this happen when a new member joined the board, made a great first post or two, and once they attained the very reachable minimum registration time and post counts, they were in.

Another problem we didn't account for is that people had completely different interpretations as to how the system should work. Some users left reputation for what they perceived to be quality posts, while others gave out positive reputation points for posts they found humorous or to their friends. Some people refused to leave negative reputation altogether. The point is that reputation points became weighted unequally in a variety of different ways, and GIK and I both agreed to do away with the system altogether.

When it became apparent that we were looking at making drastic changes, we were also in agreement that we should select a set number of existing ORG users whose posts and attitude towards others best exemplify the values that the site was founded upon. Along with input from the moderators, we trimmed the existing ORG access list down from over 450 to 240 because we felt it was a necessary step, due to the inflation that had occurred with the reputation system. That's not to say that those who no longer have access didn't deserve to be there (although I do feel that way about a handful of people). It is, however, a necessary evil in order to cut down the revised ORG member list to a number that GIK and I felt comfortable with.

I can personally say that the last 50 or so users I elminated off my revised list were very difficult decisions. Besides the two most important factors (quality of posts and how well they treat other members), some of the criteria I considered were how long the user has been registered, how often they post, if they have contributed to the site financially and if they've broken site rules in the past, and if so, how often and to what degree. Those were just some of the factors I used to help make a very difficult decision as to who should be on the ORG list. GIK and I also agreed that it would be much better to have too few initial ORG members and allow for deserving posters to get in via the new process, as opposed to having too many posters in the ORG - some of whom probably should not be there.

Finally, please do not continue to private message or email GIK, the moderators or I asking why you no longer have access. With only a handful of exceptions, there is no single reason, but it's a matter of us starting with a number that each of us felt comfortable with moving forward. All questions and concerns about the new system should be posted in this forum.

I sincerely hope that you stick around and continue to make quality posts in the Sun Deck. With ORG members no longer posting there, your posts will especially stand out. If enough people feel that you should be a part of the ORG, I'm confident that you will be there again before long.

reds44
05-21-2007, 07:21 PM
So what happens if this system doesn't work? Is everybody who got recieved privleges to the ORG going to lose them again, and then once again have to work our way up the chain?

For some posters, I get why you took back their privleges for the ORG, but for a poster like OBM, a poster who had over 1,000 rep points (or something like that), that makes no sense.

You don't get 1,000 rep points on accident.

Boss-Hog
05-21-2007, 07:38 PM
So what happens if this system doesn't work? Is everybody who got recieved privleges to the ORG going to lose them again, and then once again have to work our way up the chain?

For some posters, I get why you took back their privleges for the ORG, but for a poster like OBM, a poster who had over 1,000 rep points (or something like that), that makes no sense.

We don't get 1,000 rep points on accident.
These changes are here for good. There may be some tweaks along the way, such as the minimum number of total ORG votes required, or other variables in the voting process, but we've spent considerable time thinking this through, along with input from a large amount of valued opinions.

In any event, you don't have to worry about that happening.

reds44
05-21-2007, 07:40 PM
These changes are here for good. There may be some tweaks along the way, such as the minimum number of total ORG votes required, or other variables in the voting process, but we've spent considerable time thinking this through, along with input from a large amount of valued opinions.

In any event, you don't have to worry about that happening.
And when will we be able to apply for reinstatement? Also, this there any particular reason the Sun Deck can't have a game thread?

Boss-Hog
05-21-2007, 07:45 PM
And when will we be able to apply for reinstatement? Also, this there any particular reason the Sun Deck can't have a game thread?
I'm working on the first part right now. As far as your second question, that was done for a variety of reasons, but the short answer is that we strongly felt that the existing game threads were a complete mess in their current state (due in part to both former ORG and RL posters).

steig
05-21-2007, 08:06 PM
I agree completely that the previous game threads were a mess, and it was the reason I never posted in the game threads. I would often try to sit down with the game and thread but the thread just got out of control. I personally wish you had just picked out the members of the ORG that were causing problems rather than trimming down the amount of members so drastic. Yes, I know that I did not post as often as many people but that doesn't mean I/or people similar to me weren't reading and making the occasionaly post when appropriate. I just believe that we had earned our way to the 'elite' section and because a few people bypassed the system many had to suffer. If you review my posts in which I earned reputation you will certainly see that they were quality posts and deserving of earning ORG access. We were invited into the system and then kicked out, how do you know the feeling if you are the one making the decisions for the site.

Sean_CaseyRules
05-21-2007, 08:11 PM
Will there be an announcement when we are able to apply for reinstatement?

TC81190
05-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Redszone has been become a giant popularity contest/clique. I'm tired of it, I'm going to go somewhere where I can discuss Reds baseball without all the bull.

Boss-Hog
05-21-2007, 08:32 PM
Redszone has been become a giant popularity contest/clique. I'm tired of it, I'm going to go somewhere where I can discuss Reds baseball without all the bull.
Please feel free.

TC81190
05-21-2007, 08:37 PM
Please feel free.

And yourself, to burn bridges between myself and many others of Reds fans.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm disappointed but I respect Boss's and GIK's decision.

And sorry to Boss and Chip - I sent both of you guys PM's asking why I was no longer available to post in ORG. I sent that before I read this thread.

reds44
05-21-2007, 08:52 PM
I'm working on the first part right now. As far as your second question, that was done for a variety of reasons, but the short answer is that we strongly felt that the existing game threads were a complete mess in their current state (due in part to both former ORG and RL posters).
Boss, couldn't somebody just PM you with their request and then you could make a thread for them, and if they recieve the 50 votes then you could give them access?

Or would that not work.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2007, 08:52 PM
I do see where I could get under some people's skin with my game thread posts, but I haven't even really posted in the game threads a lot lately. I've seen trying to avoid them due to that reason. Guess I was a little too late.

Boss-Hog
05-21-2007, 08:53 PM
Boss, couldn't somebody just PM you with their request and then you could make a thread for them, and if they recieve the 50 votes then you could give them access?

Or would that not work.
Yes, I could do that, but I'd rather get the system working properly instead of a short term solution such as that.

reds44
05-21-2007, 09:08 PM
I guess when it comes down to it, I'm not made about not being in the ORG, I'm hurt more then anything. I take pride in being a good poster and a good Reds fan. I try to input knowledge and useful posts. I know sometimes I have beaten a dead horse (Edwin), but the only reason I did it is because I am a huge Reds fan and I thought/think the Reds were/are making a huge mistake.

To see that leader of the site doesn't think I am in the top 240 posters hurts. I guess there is nothing I can do about that now except move on and try to gain access.

2001MUgrad
05-21-2007, 09:10 PM
And yourself, to burn bridges between myself and many others of Reds fans.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. So I'll not.

Please email me though if you do find another place to post.

If money is needed take out a few ads like every other website or maybe stand on Pete Rose way with a jar like the rest.

pahster
05-21-2007, 09:26 PM
Redszone has been become a giant popularity contest/clique.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44283

So the Gang of 10 is more than a myth? :p:

kyred14
05-21-2007, 09:29 PM
I guess when it comes down to it, I'm not made about not being in the ORG, I'm hurt more then anything. I take pride in being a good poster and a good Reds fan. I try to input knowledge and useful posts. I know sometimes I have beaten a dead horse (Edwin), but the only reason I did it is because I am a huge Reds fan and I thought/think the Reds were/are making a huge mistake.

To see that leader of the site doesn't think I am in the top 240 posters hurts. I guess there is nothing I can do about that now except move on and try to gain access.

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I'm stunned you aren't allowed in ORG. Same with OBM. I really don't care that much that I lost my ORG status b/c I don't post that much anyway. I read here everyday, and both you and OBM belong there. Especially considering some the ones who made the cut. However, I won't personally call anyone out.

I don't know what I would have done, but his sure as heck isn't it. It is simply put nothing more than a popularity contest.

WMR
05-21-2007, 09:56 PM
I was in earlier, but now I am not. Oh well, I'll live.

IowaRed
05-21-2007, 10:55 PM
When I became an ORG member I was happy that I could post anywhere on the site but I honestly wouldn't have cared either way. There have always been incredibly insightful posts in both forums and there has been a lot of great newcomers to this site in the last couple years. Not that I am one to give advice to you folks out there but if I were I would say, relax, enjoy, and don't feel persecuted because you can't post in a certain spot on a baseball message board. It's not worth being upset about and if you are spending a lot of time angry or concerned about it then you should be happy that you don't have bigger worries. There are still plenty of great discussions that will take place in the Sundeck and you can still gather a ton of Reds information from the site.

TeamMorris
05-21-2007, 11:27 PM
To be honest, I was a little upset that I wasn't let in either as I have been a member since 2000 and have paid my dues in more ways than one and as far as I know, have never broken any rules.

As far as post count, counting...I guess I understand that. It's not that I don't want to post. I just thought it was best I take a break from the baseball side of the board for a while. It became a very scary place to be and anyone who was here from the start would agree. Those who weren't have nothing to compare it to. The "clique" of people that get mentioned way to often are probably many of those people who were here and would like to see peace restored. If people decide to act like children, I think it may be best that they are treated like them. It's unfortunate though that the other 70% of the board has to pay.

All & all I believe Boss & GIK have done a great job with this board over the years. It has gone through change many times and those passionate about it have stuck around and dealt with it and I am sure they will again.

Mario-Rijo
05-22-2007, 08:25 AM
It honestly doesn't bother me too have lost ORG status, I understand why that is and I'm ok with it. Just another challenge for me in the end. What does bother me is that once you have "earned" your way there you can no longer post on the Sun Deck. I think that's the biggest tragedy here, it's got far less plusses than negatives.

Newman4
05-22-2007, 09:41 AM
Hey I just want my little picture back under my name :)

TC 81190 and 2001MUGrad, msg me if you find some place decent and I'll join you.

GIK
05-22-2007, 10:14 AM
Guys, this probably doesn't mean much (if anything) but it really was a very tough, long and mind-racking experience creating the ORG 'start up' list. It wasn't easy and we both knew we'd be called on it. It wouldn't have been right to farm the task out to anyone - it was our job, our call and we'll take all the heat for it.

I do want to say that with this system ORG membership is not concrete. You do have the ability to gain access, which some may receive shortly, via application or nomination. It may not be perfect, it may need 'tweeks' over time, but the foundation is solid and a much better way for us to ensure RedsZone - a place Boss and I have spent I don't know how many hours on - remains the place we envisioned it to be upon its creation in April of 2000.

I also hope you all decide to remain and contribute at The Sun Deck. I really do.

coachw513
05-22-2007, 11:27 AM
When it became apparent that we were looking at making drastic changes, we were also in agreement that we should select a set number of existing ORG users whose posts and attitude towards others best exemplify the values that the site was founded upon. Along with input from the moderators, we trimmed the existing ORG access list down from over 450 to 240 because we felt it was a necessary step, due to the inflation that had occurred with the reputation system. That's not to say that those who no longer have access didn't deserve to be there (although I do feel that way about a handful of people). It is, however, a necessary evil in order to cut down the revised ORG member list to a number that GIK and I felt comfortable with.

Question...if you felt the number needed to be lowered to 240 or so ORG members, is it a philosophy that you'll have to keep the number down??...I'm all for "cleaning the board up" as a rule and don't even have issue with being caught in the crossfire of the cleansing though I seem to pass the "markers of inclusion"...but I would be troubled if we ( I guess I mean the mods and leaders of RZ) didn't have the desire to include other worthy members into this group regardless of the amount of ORG members that would give us/you...I'd hate to think inclusion to the ORG is limited to a certain number of members rather than by person-by-person evaluation as to the quality of input they provide to the site...

Does that question make sense :confused:

membengal
05-22-2007, 11:31 AM
To echo others, there was a cadre of folks who volunteered not to remain in ORG. Boss and GIK disagreed. That's what it comes down to. What Boss and GIK want. Since it's their forum, built from the ground up and into, frankly, a rather smashing success, that's what matters.

There are some of those that are not now in, but were, whose input and insight I have valued and will continue to value. I hope, selfishly, that you continue to post on SunDeck. I like reading the stuff. I like the opinions. If you choose to move on, I understand, but you will be missed. Still, in the end, it's Boss and GIK's call, and that is what matters.

There are plenty of places to still "interact" as it were, including the minors forum. SOSH probably is the road map, and there are good reasons why the founders went that route. For those that just missed under the "necessary evil" of the first cut that they had to make, it's not permanent and I am hoping that a bunch of you are able to share ideas in ORG soon.

Joseph
05-22-2007, 11:44 AM
The question does make sense and is very valid. My compliments for making the question sincere and not simply a velied slam [or not so veiled slam] against Boss, GIK and co.

I may be speaking out of turn here, but I think the desire is for controlled growth of ORG. They wanted to take things back to the roots of where things started [you'll note a great deal of the members are some of the original members obviously not all, but many] and they wanted to grow it from there. I suspect many of those that were 'close' on the list will be brought back in over the next few weeks and months. That clearly doesn't mean everyone who had access will immediately regain it, but in time they will have the opportunity. Everyone has that opportunity and while controlled growth is desired, I don't think Boss and GIK will allow people to sit outside looking in, just because of a numbers game in the long term.

Boss-Hog
05-22-2007, 01:54 PM
The question does make sense and is very valid. My compliments for making the question sincere and not simply a velied slam [or not so veiled slam] against Boss, GIK and co.

I may be speaking out of turn here, but I think the desire is for controlled growth of ORG. They wanted to take things back to the roots of where things started [you'll note a great deal of the members are some of the original members obviously not all, but many] and they wanted to grow it from there. I suspect many of those that were 'close' on the list will be brought back in over the next few weeks and months. That clearly doesn't mean everyone who had access will immediately regain it, but in time they will have the opportunity. Everyone has that opportunity and while controlled growth is desired, I don't think Boss and GIK will allow people to sit outside looking in, just because of a numbers game in the long term.
That's a pretty accurate summation. You're certainly not speaking out of turn - thanks for posting that.

dfs
05-22-2007, 02:48 PM
When I became an ORG member I was happy that I could post anywhere on the site but I honestly wouldn't have cared either way. There have always been incredibly insightful posts in both forums and there has been a lot of great newcomers to this site in the last couple years.

Yeah. I'm coming from the other side. Rightly or wrongly I retained org status. FWIW, this morning there were several interesting posts on the sundeck that I wanted to weigh in with my opinion. Can't do it. There was nothing in the ORG that I felt I could contribute to. (There is a really fine thread about Freel's baserunning. I just don't have anything to add to it)

I really don't like having part of the site cut off. The ability to interact with posters tells me a great deal about them. Without the ability to do that, I'm not sure how meaningful any vote will be.

That sounds...jerkier than I mean for it to. The quality of discourse here is great. I don't think there is anyplace reds focused on the net that has better discussion. I understand a moderator has to do what a moderator has to do.

TheBigLebowski
05-22-2007, 03:02 PM
I've also been "Encarnacioned" to the Sun Deck which greatly aggravates me. I don't recall ever breaking any rules and I had a pretty good reputation, from what I recall.

I even made a donation to the site this year and was planning to do so annually.

This just seems capricious and arbitrary. I have not yet decided if I will stick around.

TheWalls
05-22-2007, 03:10 PM
I'm working on the first part right now. As far as your second question, that was done for a variety of reasons, but the short answer is that we strongly felt that the existing game threads were a complete mess in their current state (due in part to both former ORG and RL posters).

Are you really saying you took away game thread priveleges for all non-ORGs because some of us couldn't behave in an organized way in the game threads?

TheWalls
05-22-2007, 03:16 PM
Yeah. I'm coming from the other side. Rightly or wrongly I retained org status. FWIW, this morning there were several interesting posts on the sundeck that I wanted to weigh in with my opinion. Can't do it.

That's another piece of this I don't get. What did the ORGers do to lose SunDeck privileges??? When I compare this to other successful discussion forums, e.g. BengalZone, the classism and restriction of access seems unnecessary. Other forums use other approaches to policing behavior.

Just my opinion. (Is that still okay?)

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
05-22-2007, 03:51 PM
Yeah. I'm coming from the other side. Rightly or wrongly I retained org status. FWIW, this morning there were several interesting posts on the sundeck that I wanted to weigh in with my opinion. Can't do it. There was nothing in the ORG that I felt I could contribute to. (There is a really fine thread about Freel's baserunning. I just don't have anything to add to it)

I really don't like having part of the site cut off. The ability to interact with posters tells me a great deal about them. Without the ability to do that, I'm not sure how meaningful any vote will be.

That sounds...jerkier than I mean for it to. The quality of discourse here is great. I don't think there is anyplace reds focused on the net that has better discussion. I understand a moderator has to do what a moderator has to do.

I agree 100%, How will any of us earn the vote of an org member if we can't conversate in the Sundeck. They can pop in and read our posts, but how many ORG members will even visit the sundeck when they can't post there. I can remember many times I have clicked on a thread and then realized it was ORG and couldn't post. It's frustrating when you have something to say but can't, and I eventually stopped reading anything in ORG. Maybe I'm wrong but If ORG members can't post in the Sundeck, I'd say I have a better chance getting voted in by MLB Veteran's Committee.

TeamBoone
05-22-2007, 03:54 PM
That's another piece of this I don't get. What did the ORGers do to lose SunDeck privileges???

Just my opinion. (Is that still okay?)

Totally agree.

ORG members have less than they did before. I do consider it a privilege to be able to talk baseball with everyone on the board... can't do that anymore.

Unassisted
05-22-2007, 08:07 PM
I agree 100%, How will any of us earn the vote of an org member if we can't conversate in the Sundeck. They can pop in and read our posts, but how many ORG members will even visit the sundeck when they can't post there.

Before I vote, I do a search for the last 500 posts made by the poster and I look through a large sample of them. Comments from the voting thus far indicate that most of the ORGers are doing that, too.

peterose00
05-22-2007, 08:24 PM
Please feel free.

Little brains are not allowed.

peterose00
05-22-2007, 08:26 PM
Totally agree.

ORG members have less than they did before. I do consider it a privilege to be able to talk baseball with everyone on the board... can't do that anymore.

But now you don't have to even act as if we "little brains" exist. We don't in your new world.

Dracodave
05-22-2007, 08:43 PM
But now you don't have to even act as if we "little brains" exist , have an opinion worth offering, that we can string sentances together or that we actually post meaningfull replies that simply put aren't good enough for you. We don't in your new sophisdecayed. world.

Edited that for you so that it sums up my idea's as well.

Fullboat
05-22-2007, 09:15 PM
I've also been "Encarnacioned" to the Sun Deck which greatly aggravates me. I don't recall ever breaking any rules and I had a pretty good reputation, from what I recall.

I even made a donation to the site this year and was planning to do so annually.

This just seems capricious and arbitrary. I have not yet decided if I will stick around.

Been donating since I've been here :( Hopefully this is a trial period

smith288
05-22-2007, 10:18 PM
Boss and GIK could easily just made this a money maker, putting ads between each post, merchandise affiliations, donation requests every weekend.

But they dont. They run an honest to God forum meant to stimulate quality Reds discussion. Thats worth the time here. People behind it want it to be more than $$$.

UKFlounder
05-22-2007, 10:25 PM
But now you don't have to even act as if we "little brains" exist. We don't in your new world.

Totally unfair to say that towards an ORG member, who had no part in the change.

It's probably unfair to say that to those who made the changes, but it's completely unfair to make those claims against ORG members, especially since several have expressed confusion as to why we cannot post in the SunDeck.

Dracodave
05-22-2007, 10:27 PM
Totally unfair to say that towards an ORG member, who had no part in the change.

It's probably unfair to say that to those who made the changes, but it's completely unfair to make those claims against ORG members, especially since several have expressed confusion as to why we cannot post in the SunDeck.

Thus proving it revolves around the mighty and not the "little brians" ;)

sonny
05-22-2007, 10:30 PM
Totally unfair to say that towards an ORG member, who had no part in the change.

It's probably unfair to say that to those who made the changes, but it's completely unfair to make those claims against ORG members, especially since several have expressed confusion as to why we cannot post in the SunDeck.

Has that been fully explained? I understand the new rules and even the ORG members having sole rights to post in a game thread, but I did like rubbing elbows with the ORG members. It does seem divisive to a point.

paintmered
05-22-2007, 10:57 PM
Has that been fully explained? I understand the new rules and even the ORG members having sole rights to post in a game thread, but I did like rubbing elbows with the ORG members. It does seem divisive to a point.

GIK is taking a much deserved mini-break from the board tonight so I'm going to try my best to answer in his absence.

The reasons were multi-fold:

1) The admins wanted to make ORG the feature of Redszone. They want to make the two synonymous. ORG = Redszone and vice versa. It's also the reason why ORG has a game thread and the SD does not.

The whole point of the reputation system was to dangle a carrot in front of new posters. That carrot was ORG. Except it didn't work because everyone had posting access to RL. Many ORG posters posted new threads and used RL as their default forum as activity on ORG reduced further. ORG became less and less of a carrot. I think the changes restore ORG to its original intent.

We played around with a few other ideas, but it was only the complete separation of forums that allowed ORG to be the centerpiece of Redszone. Everything else was a variation of the status quo.

2) Quite a few ORG (not all) posters didn't place nice with new posters in RL. Discussions we've had many times were dealt with negatively when brought up by a new poster (ignorant of the history here). That was completely unfair to the new posters.

I think there were a few additional reasons, but those are the biggies.

TeamBoone
05-22-2007, 11:26 PM
But now you don't have to even act as if we "little brains" exist. We don't in your new world.

You're preaching to the choir there... it doesn't apply to me. I have NEVER treated ANYONE like that. NEVER!

Please apply posts like this to those who've earned it.

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2007, 11:26 PM
But now you don't have to even act as if we "little brains" exist. We don't in your new world.

As previously stated, if you don't like the direction the owners and operators of the board have decided to take, please feel free to find someplace else to post.

(I'd suggest one with big print and small words -- we wouldn't want your "little brain" to get overstimulated. :evil: )

Its a big internet and nobody is forcing you to stay. But, I suspect your intention isn't to find a good place to talk baseball.

Boss-Hog
05-22-2007, 11:55 PM
As previously stated, if you don't like the direction the owners and operators of the board have decided to take, please feel free to find someplace else to post.

(I'd suggest one with big print and small words -- we wouldn't want your "little brain" to get overstimulated. :evil: )

Its a big internet and nobody is forcing you to stay. But, I suspect your intention isn't to find a good place to talk baseball.
Agreed. Peterose00, if you want to constructively criticize or question the changes, have at it, as plenty of others have been doing. If you want to continue to spew the same mindless insults at us that you've been repeatedly using for the past day, with no substance behind it, find somewhere else to do so.

sonny
05-23-2007, 04:52 AM
GIK is taking a much deserved mini-break from the board tonight so I'm going to try my best to answer in his absence.

The reasons were multi-fold:

1) The admins wanted to make ORG the feature of Redszone. They want to make the two synonymous. ORG = Redszone and vice versa. It's also the reason why ORG has a game thread and the SD does not.

The whole point of the reputation system was to dangle a carrot in front of new posters. That carrot was ORG. Except it didn't work because everyone had posting access to RL. Many ORG posters posted new threads and used RL as their default forum as activity on ORG reduced further. ORG became less and less of a carrot. I think the changes restore ORG to its original intent.

We played around with a few other ideas, but it was only the complete separation of forums that allowed ORG to be the centerpiece of Redszone. Everything else was a variation of the status quo.

2) Quite a few ORG (not all) posters didn't place nice with new posters in RL. Discussions we've had many times were dealt with negatively when brought up by a new poster (ignorant of the history here). That was completely unfair to the new posters.

I think there were a few additional reasons, but those are the biggies.

I can appreciate that. thanks.

jojo
05-23-2007, 10:37 PM
I'm tired of it, I'm going to go somewhere where I can discuss Reds baseball without all the bull.

I think all things are best in moderation and this is especially true of baseball blogs/boards. God bless the Redszone moderators I say....

The Redszone is one of the better baseball communities online (largely through the dedication of a very small few who take on alot of responsibility)-think SOSH, USSM etc except here we get an extreme amount of freedom and ability to express our thoughts and ideas. This place is more than a privilege...it's a godsend IMHO.

Please revisit your decision and continue to add your two cents here and make this place even better.

:beerme:

dougdirt
05-26-2007, 04:39 PM
I have a question that I really didn't think of until today.... but in the old style those with ORG status could basically post anywhere. Now I can only post in the ORG and not in the sundeck (or whatever its called, I dont want to hit back to double check and lose this post) and I was wondering why it really was this way. Even though I had access to the ORG for quite a while, most of my comments made toward the big league club were usually in what is now the sundeck due to more users and more topics to choose from that I ended up having more input on. Since things have changed, there really has not been a topic in the ORG that I really have wanted to chime in on, but there have been about 10 in the sundeck I wanted to discuss, but couldnt. Anyways, just looking for why that change was put into place.

dfs
05-26-2007, 05:51 PM
Not to speak for the moderators, but I've been given two reasons that ORG members lost access to the sundeck.

#1 Overly aggressive members of the ORG intimidated newcomers from posting. Thus new non-confrontational posters were being driven away.

#2 The mods feel that ORG is the heart of the board. If you're good enough to post there, the bulk of your baseball posts should be there.

I miss the ability to interact with every thread I want to, but I understand the reason for the restraints.

jojo
05-26-2007, 05:57 PM
Not to speak for the moderators, but I've been given two reasons that ORG members lost access to the sundeck.

#1 Overly aggressive members of the ORG intimidated newcomers from posting. Thus new non-confrontational posters were being driven away.

#2 The mods feel that ORG is the heart of the board. If you're good enough to post there, the bulk of your baseball posts should be there.

I miss the ability to interact with every thread I want to, but I understand the reason for the restraints.

I think another important reason was the notion that ORG member posts would dilute the contributions of aspiring SD members.

Natty Redlocks
05-26-2007, 06:29 PM
Also, on the Sun Deck we gets juice boxes and there aren't enough for all the big peoples.

Joseph
05-26-2007, 07:18 PM
Right Doug, what dfs and jojo said are the major reason, aside from the truth about the juiceboxes of course.

membengal
05-26-2007, 07:27 PM
Yeah, juice boxes mess up my constitution. Unless they are prune juice boxes, of course...

Redus
05-26-2007, 11:46 PM
So I made it into the ORG after getting rep from people I do not know..and now Im banished from it for doing nothing wrong.......hmmm ok. I dont really understand that but its your site and I respect that. Now if only The Reds didnt suck so hard...

Dracodave
05-27-2007, 12:26 AM
Also, on the Sun Deck we gets juice boxes and there aren't enough for all the big peoples.

And you know what?

We are the assiant coaches around here, and you know are jobs? To agree with the coaches and get them juices boxes when their thristy.


Who do they think their talking to?
You might ask. We are the juicebox boys and girls.


Their crazy!
Their not crazy, just thristy.


Go to hell, Im no ones juicebox boy/girl

No, you go to hell and when you're there...get them a juicebox!

http://www.whatevs.org/images/dailypics/05_05/ditka_ferrell.jpg

jmcclain19
05-27-2007, 07:33 AM
Boss and GIK could easily just made this a money maker, putting ads between each post, merchandise affiliations, donation requests every weekend.

But they dont. They run an honest to God forum meant to stimulate quality Reds discussion. Thats worth the time here. People behind it want it to be more than $$$.

I'm a big fan of merchandise affiliations. Seriously - the Redszone Thong. The Redszone Beer Coozie.

GIK & Boss - Think about it guys.

MaineRed
05-29-2007, 12:14 AM
I find this new system to be a sham.

Folks who don't have access to ORG are supposed to continue to post on Sundeck while waiting to be voted into ORG by people who have no reason to be reading the post on Sundeck (they can't reply so why even go there)?

So how is anyone who folks don't know supposed to ever get voted into ORG? The whole system is contingent on ORG members paying attention to what is going on in a forum they can't post at. It is crazy.

TeamBoone
05-29-2007, 12:19 AM
Rest assured, a whole lot of ORG members still read threads on the Sun Deck.

In addition, you can apply for ORG status. See the appropriately named thread on this forum.

jojo
05-29-2007, 12:25 AM
I find this new system to be a sham.

Folks who don't have access to ORG are supposed to continue to post on Sundeck while waiting to be voted into ORG by people who have no reason to be reading the post on Sundeck (they can't reply so why even go there)?

So how is anyone who folks don't know supposed to ever get voted into ORG? The whole system is contingent on ORG members paying attention to what is going on in a forum they can't post at. It is crazy.

I keep my eye on the SD.... A good post will get noticed and remembered IMHO.

Maybe a flaw in the new system is that the poster doesn't necesarily know if their posts are impressing those in the ORG since ORG members can't post in the SD. SD members won't necesarily know if their posts are resonating.

jmcclain19
05-29-2007, 12:26 AM
Folks who don't have access to ORG are supposed to continue to post on Sundeck while waiting to be voted into ORG by people who have no reason to be reading the post on Sundeck (they can't reply so why even go there)?

So how is anyone who folks don't know supposed to ever get voted into ORG? The whole system is contingent on ORG members paying attention to what is going on in a forum they can't post at. It is crazy.
I quoted this because I wanted to point this out.

I've noticed since last week this sincerely has become the truth. I was an avid user of the "new posts" search, but after half a dozen times of threads popping up on the Sun Deck that I couldn't comment on, I've stopped using it and now only go to ORG/Minor League Forum & Non Baseball Threads - so in essense I don't plan on reading SD posts anymore to essentially stop wasting my time on stuff I can't comment on. I'm sure I'm not the only one and over time this will get more prolific. Not making a judgment in either direction about the new board setup, but I wanted to at least pass this along.

jojo
05-29-2007, 12:34 AM
I quoted this because I wanted to point this out.

I've noticed since last week this sincerely has become the truth. I was an avid user of the "new posts" search, but after half a dozen times of threads popping up on the Sun Deck that I couldn't comment on, I've stopped using it and now only go to ORG/Minor League Forum & Non Baseball Threads - so in essense I don't plan on reading SD posts anymore to essentially stop wasting my time on stuff I can't comment on. I'm sure I'm not the only one and over time this will get more prolific. Not making a judgment in either direction about the new board setup, but I wanted to at least pass this along.

I think for alot of members this might be the case. I too have been frustrated a couple of times because there was a particular point that I really wanted to comment on in the SD.

That being said, I can't help myself. If there is good baseball commentary going on, i'm going to read it.

MaineRed
05-29-2007, 12:38 AM
That being said, I can't help myself. If there is good baseball commentary going on, i'm going to read it.

You'll be in the minority IMO.

This system seems designed to do one thing, keep a small number of posters (about 10% of what was Redszone) in one place. There is no way you can ask folks to police a board they can't post at. I'll say it again, crazy.

SandyD
05-29-2007, 12:40 AM
I don't check SD as often as I checked RL. However, I still read some. Doesn't take as much effort to read, if you can't respond. I look for the well developed threads, and read thru them.

You can also read and contribute to the minor league forum, where anyone can contribute.

MaineRed
05-29-2007, 12:42 AM
Rest assured, a whole lot of ORG members still read threads on the Sun Deck.



Again, some of you may have time to peruse through threads you can't post in, not to mention having the desire to do so but I don't believe the collection is as big as you make it out to be nor do I believe it is a practice that will last.

remdog
05-29-2007, 12:45 AM
I quoted this because I wanted to point this out.

I've noticed since last week this sincerely has become the truth. I was an avid user of the "new posts" search, but after half a dozen times of threads popping up on the Sun Deck that I couldn't comment on, I've stopped using it and now only go to ORG/Minor League Forum & Non Baseball Threads - so in essense I don't plan on reading SD posts anymore to essentially stop wasting my time on stuff I can't comment on. I'm sure I'm not the only one and over time this will get more prolific. Not making a judgment in either direction about the new board setup, but I wanted to at least pass this along.

You are not alone----in either actions or opinion.

Rem

WVPacman
05-29-2007, 01:27 AM
This is for all the posters thats still mad over the changes and are thinking about leaving.

please listen to what im about to say. When I first joined this site I seen that I was only allowed to post in what was Red live back then.Man I was really upset b/c I thought the samething that alot are now thinking.I thought like they was treating us like a bunch of misfits.Guys,I can honestly tell you that I handled that situation all wrong and I really paid for my actions b/c I turned everybody on this board againist me.I deserved all the critisism that they were giving me b/c it was ALL MY FAULT b/c I handled it all wrong.

I started thinking to myself after I seen almost everybody on the board did'nt like me very much b/c of the way I was acting and I would'nt quit arguing over the rep points.I sat back and thought for hours man how could I have acted this bad on a reds messageboard b/c I threatened to leave and everything.Well I sat my butt back down that same night and got back on this site.I told my self That I had to start all over to win everybodys respect back b/c I knew everybody was upset at me.That night I started typing like it was my first post and I did'nt care if I could'nt post on the ORG b/c I knew sooner or later I would be good enough to get to post in ORG.

You know what? Thats exactly what I done and I quickly won back all the posters respect that was once P Oed at me and I made it to the ORG forum.Well after the sudden changes the other day I found myself upset again b/c I felt I had already proved myself that I was ORG material b/c I was already posting on there and I can honestly say I thought everything I done went down the drain and all that hard work that I done was all for nothing.Then I thought hey I have already beat this up hill climb once already to earn the respect from all the ORG posters so I WILL JUST DO IT AGAIN AND I WILL. So the main thing Im trying to tell everybody that is mad,upset,quit posting or even went to another board(come back) is to not leave the board.Give this changes a chance!! Look at it as a goal that you are trying to accomplish b/c take it from me you all can beat it(I DID ONCE AND WILL AGAIN) and if I can do it I know you all can. So don't leave please stay b/c this board is a great site and it will be even better if you all stay.
:beerme:

remdog
05-29-2007, 01:34 AM
This is for all the posters thats still mad over the changes and are thinking about leaving.

please listen to what im about to say. When I first joined this site I seen that I was only allowed to post in what was Red live back then.Man I was really upset b/c I thought the samething that alot are now thinking.I thought like they was treating us like a bunch of misfits.Guys,I can honestly tell you that I handled that situation all wrong and I really paid for my actions b/c I turned everybody on this board againist me.I deserved all the critisism that they were giving me b/c it was ALL MY FAULT b/c I handled it all wrong.

I started thinking to myself after I seen almost everybody on the board did'nt like me very much b/c of the way I was acting and I would'nt quit arguing over the rep points.I sat back and thought for hours man how could I have acted this bad on a reds messageboard b/c I threatened to leave and everything.Well I sat my butt back down that same night and got back on this site.I told my self That I had to start all over to win everybodys respect back b/c I knew everybody was upset at me.That night I started typing like it was my first post and I did'nt care if I could'nt post on the ORG b/c I knew sooner or later I would be good enough to get to post in ORG.

You know what? Thats exactly what I done and I quickly won back all the posters respect that was once P Oed at me and I made it to the ORG forum.Well after the sudden changes the other day I found myself upset again b/c I felt I had already proved myself that I was ORG material b/c I was already posting on there and I can honestly say I thought everything I done went down the drain and all that hard work that I done was all for nothing.Then I thought hey I have already beat this up hill climb once already to earn the respect from all the ORG posters so I WILL JUST DO IT AGAIN AND I WILL. So the main thing Im trying to tell everybody that is mad,upset,quit posting or even went to another board(come back) is to not leave the board.Give this changes a chance!! Look at it as a goal that you are trying to accomplish b/c take it from me you all can beat it(I DID ONCE AND WILL AGAIN) and if I can do it I know you all can. So don't leave please stay b/c this board is a great site and it will be even better if you all stay.
:beerme:

This pandering wouldn't have anything to do with you being currently up for a vote would it? :rolleyes:

Rem

WVPacman
05-29-2007, 01:42 AM
This pandering wouldn't have anything to do with you being currently up for a vote would it? :rolleyes:

Rem

Not at all bud, I just want all these posters to know they can do anything if you put your mind to it.I don't want them to leave just b/c of the changes!!

jimbo
05-29-2007, 01:45 AM
This pandering wouldn't have anything to do with you being currently up for a vote would it? :rolleyes:

Rem

Instead of trying to read between the lines and find a hidden agenda, how about just taking the man for his word? :dunno:

Besides, how does someone know they are currently up for vote? I was under the impression you would not be notified.

WVPacman
05-29-2007, 01:51 AM
Instead of trying to read between the lines and finding a hidden agenda, how about just taking the man for his word? :dunno:

Besides, how does someone know they are currently up for vote? I was under the impression you would not be notified.


Don't worry about it bud,can't please everybody. Im just trying to convince the posters to stay.
:beerme:

reds44
05-29-2007, 02:01 AM
Ok, obviously I have been denied on my first request to get in.

Do you think it's even possible to be noticed enough to make up the gap of votes in 3 months? Is there anyway I can find out what the final vote was/what I need to improve?

SandyD
05-29-2007, 02:11 AM
nm

paintmered
05-29-2007, 02:11 AM
reds44, check your PMs.

reds44
05-29-2007, 02:30 AM
reds44, check your PMs.
Thanks paint.

WMR
05-29-2007, 06:30 AM
I think for alot of members this might be the case. I too have been frustrated a couple of times because there was a particular point that I really wanted to comment on in the SD.

That being said, I can't help myself. If there is good baseball commentary going on, i'm going to read it.

You think you're frustrated! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

mbgrayson
05-30-2007, 11:29 AM
I have noticed a clear drop in quality in posts in Sundeck vs. old RedsLive. I also miss rep points where you got feedback from org about post quality. I liked my instant gratification!

rotnoid
05-30-2007, 12:04 PM
I have noticed a clear drop in quality in posts in Sundeck vs. old RedsLive. I also miss rep points where you got feedback from org about post quality. I liked my instant gratification!

I think I read somewhere that there was a feedback system in the works. But maybe I made that up. Mods, any help?

Boss-Hog
05-30-2007, 12:33 PM
I think I read somewhere that there was a feedback system in the works. But maybe I made that up. Mods, any help?
That's correct - if I can work out the initial kinks I had with it, there will soon be some sort of feedback implemented that will allow users to give a thumbs up or down for individual posts. However, unlike the reputation system, this will not be tracked via a score, nor will it be an official criteria for entrance to the ORG.

peterose00
05-30-2007, 09:10 PM
:thumbdown:thumbup:
That's correct - if I can work out the initial kinks I had with it, there will soon be some sort of feedback implemented that will allow users to give a thumbs up or down for individual posts. However, unlike the reputation system, this will not be tracked via a score, nor will it be an official criteria for entrance to the ORG.

Wow -- that sounds really exciting. I can't wait till this wonderful enhancement is in place.

peterose00
05-30-2007, 09:12 PM
:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::th umbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thum bup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdo wn:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup:: thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:th umbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumb down:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup ::thumbdown:thumbup::thumbdown:thumbup:
That's correct - if I can work out the initial kinks I had with it, there will soon be some sort of feedback implemented that will allow users to give a thumbs up or down for individual posts. However, unlike the reputation system, this will not be tracked via a score, nor will it be an official criteria for entrance to the ORG.

looks like the enhancement is working quite well already. Man -- did that make this place so much better than before. I can't wait to see if I got a thumbs up or a thumbs down.

pedro
05-30-2007, 09:28 PM
You're sure doing your best to make RZ a better place too I can see. Kudos to you peterose00.

Handofdeath
05-30-2007, 09:59 PM
I appreciate the sarcasm. It's well placed. But let's deal with a few facts. What do the following have in common?

2001MUgrad
1,462 posts and member since 2003

Redsupport
1,401 posts averages 3.80 a day

TeamMorris
1,357 posts and member since 2002

flynn78
1,315 posts and member since 2004

jimbo
1,278 posts averages 3.38 posts a day

The answer? Neither one was awarded ORG status. Instead membership was given to people who started posting last year or who average less than a third of the posts per day of these people. I've read their posts. What exactly did they do or didn't do to be excluded? Nothing. A member for more than 5 years and he's not included? People who have contributed money to this site not brought in? But, let's bring in the guy banned for at least 6 months recently. Let's bring in the curmudgeon who doesn't have a positive thing to say about anything. This is your website and you can certainly run it the way you want. But a number of people who love Redszone got a damn dirty deal.

George Foster
05-30-2007, 10:09 PM
A member for more than 5 years and he's not included? People who have contributed money to this site not brought in? But, let's bring in the guy banned for at least 6 months recently. This is your website and you can certainly run it the way you want. But a number of people who love Redszone got a damn dirty deal.


Good post.

Caveat Emperor
05-30-2007, 10:52 PM
]A member for more than 5 years and he's not included? People who have contributed money to this site not brought in? But, let's bring in the guy banned for at least 6 months recently. Let's bring in the curmudgeon who doesn't have a positive thing to say about anything. This is your website and you can certainly run it the way you want. But a number of people who love Redszone got a damn dirty deal.

The process isn't perfect -- Boss & GIK admitted that the list they came up with was a STARTING point. The process is evolving, just as the membership list to ORG is as more people are brought over. A lot of good posters were left off the list. That'll be remedied, I imagine, quickly.

As for the two individuals you mentioned -- both have produced quality content for this board for years. One of the two is the very reason I kept coming to the board after discovering it. The other can be negative but is usually well reasoned and thought out. I think you'd find very few people who would agree that the two people you're speaking of don't deserve to be where they are based on the content they produce.

Handofdeath
05-30-2007, 10:54 PM
Good post.

Thanks. And when I do a little more checking I see that George Foster who has exactly 4,921 posts and who averages 7.41 posts a day is not a member. 64th overall in total posts and on the outside. I assumed someone who had contributed that much was member of ORG. My bad GF.

reds44
05-30-2007, 10:55 PM
I appreciate the sarcasm. It's well placed. But let's deal with a few facts. What do the following have in common?

2001MUgrad
1,462 posts and member since 2003

Redsupport
1,401 posts averages 3.80 a day

TeamMorris
1,357 posts and member since 2002

flynn78
1,315 posts and member since 2004

jimbo
1,278 posts averages 3.38 posts a day

The answer? Neither one was awarded ORG status. Instead membership was given to people who started posting last year or who average less than a third of the posts per day of these people. I've read their posts. What exactly did they do or didn't do to be excluded? Nothing. A member for more than 5 years and he's not included? People who have contributed money to this site not brought in? But, let's bring in the guy banned for at least 6 months recently. Let's bring in the curmudgeon who doesn't have a positive thing to say about anything. This is your website and you can certainly run it the way you want. But a number of people who love Redszone got a damn dirty deal.
All we can do is try to improve our posting. It's a message board, have fun. Nobody is trying to screw anyone over.

Handofdeath
05-30-2007, 11:22 PM
All we can do is try to improve our posting. It's a message board, have fun. Nobody is trying to screw anyone over.

And reds44 you really got screwed. And my posting did improve and so did others. I busted my ass to improve and get into ORG only to be told months later, after I did nothing wrong, that I was out again. Maybe nobody is intentionally trying to screw anybody but that's what happened. I'm not taking part in a damned essay contest and neither should anybody else. I'm through with this elitist crap.

reds44
05-30-2007, 11:47 PM
And reds44 you really got screwed. And my posting did improve and so did others. I busted my ass to improve and get into ORG only to be told months later, after I did nothing wrong, that I was out again. Maybe nobody is intentionally trying to screw anybody but that's what happened. I'm not taking part in a damned essay contest and neither should anybody else. I'm through with this elitist crap.
They are just trying to do what is best for the site. They had to set a limit somewhere, and I was one of the ones left out. It happens. Nothing I can do about it now except hope to be voted in by my fellow posters.

I've already seen multiple threads from Sun Deck members about how the quality on the Sun Deck is down from what it was on Reds Live. Don't you think that was done intentionally? The reason the admins seperated the two and don't allow ORG members to post on the Sun Deck is so posters stand out one way or another and allowing ORG members to post on the Sun Deck wasn't allowing that.

Some people got in the ORG undeservedly because of what the admins thought was abuse of the rep system. Now that doesn't mean you or I got in underservidly, but tey had to draw a line somewhere. If we deserve to be in, we'll be voted on by our fellow members.

I'm not saying I agree with what happend, but I see where they are coming from. What's done is done, and you just have to move on.

Patrick Bateman
05-30-2007, 11:49 PM
Thanks. And when I do a little more checking I see that George Foster who has exactly 4,921 posts and who averages 7.41 posts a day is not a member. 64th overall in total posts and on the outside. I assumed someone who had contributed that much was member of ORG. My bad GF.

Quality posts are more important than quantity. Nobody should get in solely because of their ability to hit the reply button.

RedEye
05-31-2007, 12:17 AM
Quality posts are more important than quantity. Nobody should get in solely because of their ability to hit the reply button.

+1 (meaning that I agree... and that I just added a post to my total). :D

WVPacman
05-31-2007, 12:49 AM
And reds44 you really got screwed. And my posting did improve and so did others. I busted my ass to improve and get into ORG only to be told months later, after I did nothing wrong, that I was out again. Maybe nobody is intentionally trying to screw anybody but that's what happened. I'm not taking part in a damned essay contest and neither should anybody else. I'm through with this elitist crap.


Hang in there man,I know its hard but you can beat the odds again.Just don't give up!!
;)

RBA
05-31-2007, 01:21 AM
I find this new system to be a sham.

Folks who don't have access to ORG are supposed to continue to post on Sundeck while waiting to be voted into ORG by people who have no reason to be reading the post on Sundeck (they can't reply so why even go there)?

So how is anyone who folks don't know supposed to ever get voted into ORG? The whole system is contingent on ORG members paying attention to what is going on in a forum they can't post at. It is crazy.


I don't know about all that. But your post got me to think. And me thinking is a rarity, so pay attention.

Here's the scenario:

A new poster wanders into RedsZone. He/she is given SunDeck status and can't post in ORG. Why would he read ORG, since he can't post there? Why after hundreds/thousands of post solely in Sundeck and making friends in SunDeck would he want to be essentially ban from posting where his "buddies' are at in SunDeck and post with complete strangers in ORG? I think I would have little incentive to move "up" to ORG status when my friends are still "down" on SunDeck. That would be like I'm at my neighborhood bar and in order to enter the fancy club down the street, I would have to say bye to the friends I know to meet people i don't know.

chuck1234
05-31-2007, 07:09 AM
I am new here. I was wondering why I couldn't post in Old Reds Guard, but now I read this and see that there has been some major conflict going on here. I am no Reds fan, but I hear this is the best place to talk Reds baseball. Looks like a good place. Its just a shame this conflict has risen.

Looking forward to getting to know many of you.

Caseyfan21
05-31-2007, 06:23 PM
I am new here. I was wondering why I couldn't post in Old Reds Guard, but now I read this and see that there has been some major conflict going on here. I am no Reds fan, but I hear this is the best place to talk Reds baseball. Looks like a good place. Its just a shame this conflict has risen.

Looking forward to getting to know many of you.

Welcome Chuck. Give it a few months to blow over and everything should be back to normal. There was a similar situation when the old system was put in place.

klw
06-01-2007, 01:09 PM
That would be like I'm at my neighborhood bar and in order to enter the fancy club down the street, I would have to say bye to the friends I know to meet people i don't know.

Or if you are a married internationally known star but you take up with a stripper from Vegas