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View Full Version : Is Arroyo hurt?



reds44
05-21-2007, 09:04 PM
Leaves game after 2 innings with something like 60 pitches. I know he gave up 6 runs, but Narron normally leaves his starter out their longer.

Maybe the abuse Narron has put on the arms of Arroyo and Harang is starting to show.

NorrisHopper30
05-21-2007, 09:06 PM
Was wondering the same thing..

boognish
05-21-2007, 09:21 PM
I hope it was preventive rather than reactive, but I'm not confident, especially after Bronson batted.

captainmorgan07
05-21-2007, 09:37 PM
he has to be but from what i hear he struggled badly

KYRed
05-21-2007, 09:50 PM
I sure hope he isn't hurt, and we may find that out after the game. Of course the team may choose to not fully disclose a minor injury, and Narron may claim something along the lines of "He just didn't have it tonight and coming off the high pitch count from the last outing, I decided to take him out after 2IP."

Of course its possibly he really just didn't have it tonight. It's just easy to wonder coming off something around 245-247 pitches over his last two outings.

BurgervilleBuck
05-22-2007, 12:02 AM
He just didn't have the ball control tonight. I don't know if it was flukey or he's (somehow) tired or what but he just looked Milton-esque tonight.

reds44
05-22-2007, 12:19 AM
He just didn't have the ball control tonight. I don't know if it was flukey or he's (somehow) tired or what but he just looked Milton-esque tonight.
He did throw 129 pitches his last start.

I(heart)Freel
05-22-2007, 12:24 AM
From Josh on the Post blog:

"Arroyo said he had good stuff, but that he lost his head in the first inning and allowed it to snowball on him. Said he felt good physically. I don't know, though. Something felt a little weird in the clubhouse tonight. Special K asked Santos when he started warming up, and he said he had enough time to get ready. But the way he said it was just a tad strange."


Strange indeed.

Dunner44
05-22-2007, 12:44 AM
From Josh on the Post blog:

"Arroyo said he had good stuff, but that he lost his head in the first inning and allowed it to snowball on him. Said he felt good physically. I don't know, though. Something felt a little weird in the clubhouse tonight. Special K asked Santos when he started warming up, and he said he had enough time to get ready. But the way he said it was just a tad strange."


Strange indeed.

Yeah, but you left out the part that came before that:


Narron said he took out Arroyo because he was worried about his pitch count. He threw 129 against LA a few days back, and after Arroyo got to 62 after two inning, it was clear he wasn't going deep in the ballgame. So, Narron pulled him. It was curious that Arroyo batted in the second inning, but Narron said he knew Santos was coming in before that and he elected to have Arroyo hit in that spot instead of Santos. I guess you could make the claim that Narron didn't want to burn a pinch-hitter that early, and who knows if Hamilton was really available. Kind of weird for Arroyo to bat in that spot, though.

reds1869
05-22-2007, 12:55 AM
I was there and really don't think Arroyo was hurt. He had a bad start and appeared mentaly rattled (which he confirmed). IMO we'll see him in his normal spot and back in stride later this week.

coachw513
05-22-2007, 01:10 AM
Well, now we can all sit around and lament the reds rotation and how they are costing us games...

Actually, what has generally pleased me is on days the guys don't have their best stuff, they seemingly have the ability to keep the team in the game by not just getting shelled (Lohse recently might not be the best example of that)...this week really is important to reestablish some quality innings pitched from our staters...

Let's go Saarloos...give me 6 innings, 101 pitches, 78 for strikes, 5 hits, 2 walks, 2 ER with the Reds leading 6-2 headed to the bottom of the inning...

(You can thank me later!!):beerme:

KYRed
05-22-2007, 01:10 AM
I was there and really don't think Arroyo was hurt. He had a bad start and appeared mentaly rattled (which he confirmed). IMO we'll see him in his normal spot and back in stride later this week.

I agree. I'm a little surprised to hear him say he lost it mentally, because he seems fairly mature in that department. If he isn't injured I think he comes back strong against the Pirates on Saturday. Let him enjoy the recovery that comes off 62 pitches and build himself back up.

RedEye
05-22-2007, 01:20 AM
I think we've just become so accustomed to his habitual brilliance that a bad start makes us worry. This happens to every pitcher once in awhile.

HumnHilghtFreel
05-22-2007, 03:35 AM
Let's go Saarloos...give me 6 innings, 101 pitches, 78 for strikes, 5 hits, 2 walks, 2 ER with the Reds leading 6-2 headed to the bottom of the inning...

(You can thank me later!!):beerme:

You wouldn't happen to be a subscriber to this( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115163/ ) newspaper, would you? ;)

crazybob60
05-22-2007, 05:11 AM
"He just didn't have it tonight and coming off the high pitch count from the last outing, I decided to take him out after 2IP."




That sounds like something that Narron would say most definitely!

Luckily he isn't injured (at least from what we know, lets not hope about 3-4 weeks down the line he still isn't performing and he comes up with an injury that he says has been bothers him). Now something like that, if something like that is pulled, ala the Gary Majewski situation really does bother me and it bothered me BIG time even before Majewski's was ever even thought about in a baseball uniform in the Bigs.

camisadelgolf
05-22-2007, 05:16 AM
Maybe it was just a bad hangover or something. I hope he's okay for his next start. :beerme:

sonny
05-22-2007, 05:17 AM
He'll be alright. Just had to get that poor performance out of his sytem

.... There, it's gone!

BurgervilleBuck
05-22-2007, 07:53 AM
He did throw 129 pitches his last start.
Which was why I mentioned him being fatigued and qualified it with (somehow). I don't pitch in the majors so I'm not sure how tiring it is to throw 129 and then get back on the mound five days later.

44Magnum
05-22-2007, 09:42 AM
Hopefully he got his bad start out of the way on a day when they still got a win.

Blitz Dorsey
05-22-2007, 12:00 PM
Wow, Narron continues to have no concept of how to use pinch hitters in the National League. When you are in the Reds' situation, you don't worry about "burning pinch hitters too early in the game." If you are going to take the pitcher out, you pinch hit for him. It's that simple. I don't care if there are two out and nobody on (which wasn't the case with Arroyo last night -- making Narron's decision even more puzzling) you still send a pitch hitter up there. It's not easy to get a two-out rally going, but you have to take the chance and not play like you're in the bush leagues.

I used to be a Narron backer, but this is his main flaw. Many times during his tenure with the Reds he has made terrible decisions in terms of letting pitchers hit, and then taking them out right away. Sometimes he waits until the pitcher gives up a hit the following inning (even if it's the leadoff hitter). I've argued before that you have to pinch hit for the pitcher if you know you are going to pull him as soon as he gives up a baserunner the following inning. That is called having zero foresight and that's what Narron has. He doesn't think ahead well enough. And again, I think there are good qualities he brings to the table, but I have reached the point where I will be OK with it if he is let go (even though it's obviously not even close to being all his fault).

durl
05-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Wow, Narron continues to have no concept of how to use pinch hitters in the National League. When you are in the Reds' situation, you don't worry about "burning pinch hitters too early in the game." If you are going to take the pitcher out, you pinch hit for him. It's that simple. I don't care if there are two out and nobody on (which wasn't the case with Arroyo last night -- making Narron's decision even more puzzling) you still send a pitch hitter up there. It's not easy to get a two-out rally going, but you have to take the chance and not play like you're in the bush leagues.

And if he burned Valentin as a PH in the 2nd inning, the game might have ended differently. The 2nd inning seems a little soon to start grasping for a 2-out rally.


I used to be a Narron backer, but this is his main flaw. Many times during his tenure with the Reds he has made terrible decisions in terms of letting pitchers hit, and then taking them out right away. Sometimes he waits until the pitcher gives up a hit the following inning (even if it's the leadoff hitter). I've argued before that you have to pinch hit for the pitcher if you know you are going to pull him as soon as he gives up a baserunner the following inning. That is called having zero foresight and that's what Narron has. He doesn't think ahead well enough. And again, I think there are good qualities he brings to the table, but I have reached the point where I will be OK with it if he is let go (even though it's obviously not even close to being all his fault).

Sometimes a manager puts faith in his players and they let him down. At some point, players have got to come through when it counts. And we've seen this a lot: Narron leaves in a starter too long and people complain, or Narron goes to the bullpen and they blow the lead and people complain. The man is in a catch-22. Narron doesn't have a lot of weapons, no "lights-out" guy for middle relief and no "lights-out" closer who will strike out the side with 98 mph heat. So it's up to him to predict who will actually come through from night to night. I don't envy him that position.

durl
05-22-2007, 12:34 PM
Oh, and Arroyo is NOT hurt.

Yet another rumor shot down.

I(heart)Freel
05-22-2007, 12:40 PM
Arroyo might not be hurt... but I continue to wonder (hence the posting earlier) what "strangeness" Josh was alluding to in his Post blog.

Something seems amiss. Maybe they knew Arroyo was tired/off before the game started. Maybe they knew they were going to go to the pen early but didn't want anyone (obviously) to know that beforehand.

Dunno.

But I go back to the strangeness in the clubhouse. I take that as everyone knew something but no one was saying. We may never know. But like I said, something seems amiss.

bounty37h
05-22-2007, 01:03 PM
Wow, Narron continues to have no concept of how to use pinch hitters in the National League. When you are in the Reds' situation, you don't worry about "burning pinch hitters too early in the game." If you are going to take the pitcher out, you pinch hit for him. It's that simple. I don't care if there are two out and nobody on (which wasn't the case with Arroyo last night -- making Narron's decision even more puzzling) you still send a pitch hitter up there. It's not easy to get a two-out rally going, but you have to take the chance and not play like you're in the bush leagues.

I used to be a Narron backer, but this is his main flaw. Many times during his tenure with the Reds he has made terrible decisions in terms of letting pitchers hit, and then taking them out right away. Sometimes he waits until the pitcher gives up a hit the following inning (even if it's the leadoff hitter). I've argued before that you have to pinch hit for the pitcher if you know you are going to pull him as soon as he gives up a baserunner the following inning. That is called having zero foresight and that's what Narron has. He doesn't think ahead well enough. And again, I think there are good qualities he brings to the table, but I have reached the point where I will be OK with it if he is let go (even though it's obviously not even close to being all his fault).

Well, if he had pinch hit Javy in that spot, we wouldnt ahve had him later in the game when we needed him, so guess it worked out ok for them this time. Lot easier to second guess from your desk chair behind a comuter, wihtout your career on the line, aint it?

bucksfan2
05-23-2007, 10:13 AM
I am not a big fan of Javy as a pinch hitter. Yes he won the games two nights ago but last night he has a 3-1 count with 2 runners on down 4 and was swinging for the fences. IMO a walk is better than a HR at that point. It looks like he has no concept of hitting except for swinging from his heels on every swing.

TC81190
05-31-2007, 11:31 PM
5 IP, 8 ER, 11 H. Falls City Beer insists it's him coming back to earth, but no pitcher does that consistently. Since that almost 130 pitch outing in SD, he's been absolutely god-awful. Coincidence? Likely not.

reds44
05-31-2007, 11:32 PM
He's either hurt/tired from over use, or OBM could be correct in saying he is coming back to earth.

I think his arm is tired, and Narorn gets alot of the blame for that.

HokieRed
05-31-2007, 11:35 PM
I'd guess it's some of both. He's coming back closer to career norms and he is suffering from a year and a third of overuse. This is not an unusual pattern for a starter who has pitched nearly 250 innings the prior season.

TC81190
05-31-2007, 11:37 PM
I'd guess it's some of both. He's coming back closer to career norms and he is suffering from a year and a third of overuse. This is not an unusual pattern for a starter who has pitched nearly 250 innings the prior season.

He really wasn't. He was doing amazingly until San Diego. 130 pitches later, he sucks.

reds44
05-31-2007, 11:39 PM
After looking at this, I really doubt it is "coming back to Earth"?

Credit: Cyclone



There is one small Arroyo fact that I find particularly interesting during this three game stretch: Arroyo has faced 74 batters over these last three games and has exactly four strikeouts. That's a rate of one strikeout per 18.5 batters faced.

Last season? One strikeout every 5.39 batters faced.

This season prior to May 21st? One strikeout every 5.81 batters faced


He's got a tried arm.

TC81190
05-31-2007, 11:49 PM
I honestly wonder if skipping his next start and having him do a lot of long toss and a few BP sessions would help rejuvenate him.

cincrazy
05-31-2007, 11:57 PM
He's got a tired arm, and the NL has seen enough of him to hit him better his second year through the league. With that being said, and I'm a Narron supporter, Narron's used him way too much the last few years, and that has to have some kind of an effect.

WVPacman
06-01-2007, 12:12 AM
I say hes either hurt or has a tired arm so he difinently needs to miss his next start b/c if he don't then its just going to be that much worst.

Is he really in the music buesness big? I know hes got his own group and has concerts but do you think that might be the problem.I know it sounds stupid and it probably is'nt the case but you never know.

Screwball
06-01-2007, 01:16 AM
After looking at this, I really doubt it is "coming back to Earth"?

Credit: Cyclone


There is one small Arroyo fact that I find particularly interesting during this three game stretch: Arroyo has faced 74 batters over these last three games and has exactly four strikeouts. That's a rate of one strikeout per 18.5 batters faced.

Last season? One strikeout every 5.39 batters faced.


This season prior to May 21st? One strikeout every 5.81 batters faced


He's got a tried arm.

Wow, great stat right there. This isn't like a 7 handicapper shooting 37 on the front and then 43 on the back, thus falling back to his average. This is a 7 handicapper shooting 37 on the front and 58 on the back. It just doesn't make sense unless there's a physical problem (i.e. a dead arm) that wasn't there before. For Arroyo's sake (and for the future of the Reds), I hope he either gets put on the 15 day DL or at least skips his next start.

TC81190
06-01-2007, 01:25 AM
Wow, great stat right there. This isn't like a 7 handicapper shooting 37 on the front and then 43 on the back, thus falling back to his average. This is a 7 handicapper shooting 37 on the front and 58 on the back. It just doesn't make sense unless there's a physical problem (i.e. a dead arm) that wasn't there before. For Arroyo's sake (and for the future of the Reds), I hope he either gets put on the 15 day DL or at least skips his next start.

Or at least an MRI, for godsake.

Jefferson24
06-01-2007, 01:36 AM
I've got a feeling something is wrong and it's not just going away in a start or two. It may be an injury, I wouldn't be surprised.

WVPacman
06-01-2007, 01:42 AM
I've got a feeling something is wrong and it's not just going away in a start or two. It may be an injury, I wouldn't be surprised.

Yep I say your right!!

HokieRed
06-01-2007, 02:05 AM
A look inside Arroyo's past numbers reveals some interesting, possibly relevant, things. First of all, he was never a regular starter in the Major Leagues till 2004, when he threw 178.2 innings, then in 2005, 205.1; then in 2006, 240. These represent 1. Substantial jumps from year to year; 2. A cumulative average of about 210 per year; 3. Movement into new territory--hard in other words, to know how he will react after pitching that much last year--his numbers have been bumped up quite quickly and dramatically.
Second, he did have a dramatic falling off in strikeouts per 9 in 2005. In 2004, he struck out 7.15 per 9; then in 2005, this fell to 4.38 per 9; then last year went back up to 6.88. Suggests he may have had significant tiredness in 2005, along the lines of what he's perhaps now experiencing.

hebroncougar
06-01-2007, 07:55 AM
A look inside Arroyo's past numbers reveals some interesting, possibly relevant, things. First of all, he was never a regular starter in the Major Leagues till 2004, when he threw 178.2 innings, then in 2005, 205.1; then in 2006, 240. These represent 1. Substantial jumps from year to year; 2. A cumulative average of about 210 per year; 3. Movement into new territory--hard in other words, to know how he will react after pitching that much last year--his numbers have been bumped up quite quickly and dramatically.
Second, he did have a dramatic falling off in strikeouts per 9 in 2005. In 2004, he struck out 7.15 per 9; then in 2005, this fell to 4.38 per 9; then last year went back up to 6.88. Suggests he may have had significant tiredness in 2005, along the lines of what he's perhaps now experiencing.

Was that his second time around the AL??? If so, batters could have adjusted to him, and he didn't adjust back. Then he gets his "artificial bump" by moving the the NL last year. Now batters are adjusting.

HokieRed
06-01-2007, 09:00 AM
AL hitters becoming familiar with his stuff could certainly also be a contributing factor to the decline in K's from 2004 to 2005. My guess is that what's happening is a combination of factors. Of course all starters have to learn to get hitters out when the hitters know pretty well what their stuff looks like. But it may be too much to expect a guy to make these kinds of adjustments without any falling off when he's been used as much as Arroyo has over the year and a third he's been with the Reds.

bucksfan2
06-01-2007, 09:23 AM
I think there is something wrong. Arroyo started the season off good and has stumbled badly over his last 3 starts. He doesn't have good control over his pitches and he is getting beat by throwing fastballs. His curve isn't sharp and looks as if it is hanging now. I give him one more start and if he struggles again I put him down for 15 days.

Screwball
06-01-2007, 10:14 AM
He doesn't have good control over his pitches and he is getting beat by throwing fastballs. His curve isn't sharp and looks as if it is hanging now.



See, that's what I saw as well. But then I read this from Bronson and David Ross (per Trent):



Bronson said he felt as good as ever. David Ross said it was the best stuff he's seen Bronson have this season.


He then goes on to say that the Astros just hit it, and that it happens sometimes. I'd be inclined to believe that if it wasn't his 3rd miserable start in a row. If you get touched up for 4 or so runs on 6 innings with "the best stuff" your catcher has seen, then maybe it was just some bad luck and then you move on. But 7 runs in 5 IP, on top of his last two God-awful outings leads me to believe it was more than "just baseball."

The problem is, (if you can call it a problem) BA is a competitor. He wants the ball every 5th day (or 4th if it was up to him) come hell or high water. He's not going to let on about a dead or tired arm. It's up to the coaching staff to recognize either a serious mechanical flaw, an injury (or dead arm), or maybe whether he's not focused mentally. Either way, I have little faith in the Reds to successfully do this after watching the likes of Paul Wilson and Brandon Claussen slip by in the past.

sonny
06-01-2007, 11:01 AM
I seem to recall Dibble's "losing it" was because of concert going. The inner ear got damaged because of the loud music and messed with his equilibrium. BA's problem perhaps?

Ludwig Reds Fan
06-01-2007, 12:43 PM
The simplest most obvious answer is usually the correct one.

Arroyo after his 120+ pitch game has been AWFUL, and he has lost a few mph on his fastball.


Seems pretty obvious to me, but hey, we aren't the "experts", the Reds are. <----lol?

TC81190
06-01-2007, 01:33 PM
Was that his second time around the AL??? If so, batters could have adjusted to him, and he didn't adjust back. Then he gets his "artificial bump" by moving the the NL last year. Now batters are adjusting.

It's not that. Did you see the numbers reds44 posted? After the 130 pitch game, he basically stopped K'ing guys. It's not a coincidence.

JLB5
06-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Watching the game last night, Welsh was talking about how the home plate umpire commented that Bronson was throwing more fastballs and earlier in the count than usual. Welsh was saying how he is usually more effective when he does this. And, as evidenced by the Ludwick HR, it was pretty obvious that St.L had him scouted as a curveball first pitcher. It seems this is the league catching up to him and Bronson starting to make adjustments. Aside from that, I remember reading some game articles earlier in the year when Bronson had to lean on his fastball more that he tired more quickly. Narron should have know that he was throwing more fastballs and had less of a shelf life in that game. Anyways, it could be that he's covering an injury but there are several other possibilities. He gets an extra day of rest with the off day on Tuesday, so we'll see how his next start goes. He also gets a start against a weak hitting Oakland team, so if he doesn't do well in the next 2, I'm very concerned.