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Goten
05-21-2007, 09:31 PM
Where do you rank Bonds/Clemens among players/pitchers historically?

HumnHilghtFreel
05-21-2007, 09:36 PM
Bonds without roids would easily hover in or around the top 10, IMO. With the added edge(and asterisk) he's probably asserted himself comfortably in the top 10.

Clemens is without a doubt a top 5 pitcher, if for nothing more than dominance mixed with longevity.

George Anderson
05-22-2007, 01:22 AM
IMHO Clemens is no doubt one of the top 5 pitchers of all time. Had he pitched during the dead ball era, I think he would have many more victories that Cy Young's 511.


As far as Bonds, I put him in the 10-20 range, I am trying to remember, but I think that he did win 3 MVP awards before he was on the juice (allegedly of course:rolleyes:)

reds1869
05-22-2007, 01:29 AM
Bonds is a great player. I don't like him, but too many people are being blinded by their hatred for him. No matter what you think of him, he's one tremendous ballpayer and one of the top 20 all-time.

Clemens: best ever. Period.

TeamSelig
05-22-2007, 01:31 AM
Wow, Clemens past 20????

George Anderson
05-22-2007, 01:34 AM
Wow, Clemens past 20????

Mike Piazza must be voting :p:

Goten
05-22-2007, 02:19 AM
Wow, Clemens past 20????

I'm assuming steroid allegations are hurting them both, especially Bonds.

AtomicDumpling
05-22-2007, 02:48 AM
I personally can't stand Barry Bonds, but I think he is definitely one of the top 5 best players ever. The folks at Baseball Prospectus made a great case in the book Baseball Between the Numbers that Bonds and Babe Ruth are neck-and-neck tied for the best player ever. He was a top-flight defensive player for most of his career. He has been a devastating hitter and could run. I am convinced he took steroids but I am of the opinion that the effects of steroids are WAY overblown. I think the reason he became so physically large is not the steroids but rather the 4 hours he spends in the weight room every day. His reputation has deservedly taken a huge hit due to steroids, but steroids did not make him a great player -- he was already great. Other than the one record-breaking season he hasn't hit more home runs per year after the steroids as he did before the drugs.

Clemens is also a top 5 guy. He has been a dominant pitcher for more than 20 years. I don't think you can find a handful of pitchers that could have put up Clemens' numbers in such an offense-heavy era. I don't like him either but I have to give him credit.

sonny
05-22-2007, 02:52 AM
I personally can't stand Barry Bonds, but I think he is definitely one of the top 5 best players ever. The folks at Baseball Prospectus made a great case in the book Baseball Between the Numbers that Bonds and Babe Ruth are neck-and-neck tied for the best player ever. He was a top-flight defensive player for most of his career. He has been a devastating hitter and could run. I am convinced he took steroids but I am of the opinion that the effects of steroids are WAY overblown. I think the reason he became so physically large is not the steroids but rather the 4 hours he spends in the weight room every day. His reputation has deservedly taken a huge hit due to steroids, but steroids did not make him a great player -- he was already great. Other than the one record-breaking season he hasn't hit more home runs per year after the steroids as he did before the drugs.

Clemens is also a top 5 guy. He has been a dominant pitcher for more than 20 years. I don't think you can find a handful of pitchers that could have put up Clemens' numbers in such an offense-heavy era. I don't like him either but I have to give him credit.

You have transcribed my thoughts eloquently:thumbup:

Goten
05-22-2007, 02:55 AM
I personally can't stand Barry Bonds, but I think he is definitely one of the top 5 best players ever. The folks at Baseball Prospectus made a great case in the book Baseball Between the Numbers that Bonds and Babe Ruth are neck-and-neck tied for the best player ever. He was a top-flight defensive player for most of his career. He has been a devastating hitter and could run. I am convinced he took steroids but I am of the opinion that the effects of steroids are WAY overblown. I think the reason he became so physically large is not the steroids but rather the 4 hours he spends in the weight room every day. His reputation has deservedly taken a huge hit due to steroids, but steroids did not make him a great player -- he was already great. Other than the one record-breaking season he hasn't hit more home runs per year after the steroids as he did before the drugs.

Clemens is also a top 5 guy. He has been a dominant pitcher for more than 20 years. I don't think you can find a handful of pitchers that could have put up Clemens' numbers in such an offense-heavy era. I don't like him either but I have to give him credit.


Yeah, me too. As I said before, to not have either one of these men in the top five, and heck, even top ten requires an extreme adjustment for steroid allegations. Clemens and Bonds both rival Walter Johnson and Babe Ruth for the best all-time pitcher and position player.

Astrobuddy
05-22-2007, 03:00 AM
Both are self absorbed jerks, but God gifted them with talent to play baseball.

Goten
05-22-2007, 02:50 PM
bump

VI_RedsFan
05-22-2007, 06:24 PM
I put both Clemens and Bonds in the top 5.

Even though I don't really like Bonds, until they prove he took steroids, I don't see how you can't put him in the top 5. And Clemens...he had a sub-3.00 ERA as a starter in a full season in his 40s...'nuff said.

Dracodave
05-22-2007, 06:29 PM
I agree with what Tex said on Jim Rome when asked about Bonds and Selig. "I dont know Barry very well, but I have to say..he's a excellent, feared and devasting ballplayer with or without."

Say all you want about what Barry did..that he might be a a$$ etc..but the man was and is a devastating ballplayer. No doubt top 5-10 in any case.

Clemens? Enough said about him already.

JLB5
05-22-2007, 07:06 PM
On the field, both have been Top 5 all-time without a doubt. The 'roids issue makes it difficult to place Bonds, but he was well on his way to Top 10 pre 1998 (seems to be the possible 'roid/HGH start year). Bonds had a combination of speed, power, and fielding ability that is a true rarity. Only Griffey was considered his equal in their prime for being the most complete player. Barry gave a new place in the game to the IBB and completely changed the way his opponents approached the game. Other than Ruth, Mays, Mantle, and Williams, I can't name any more complete players. Griffey would have been there if not for the injuries. Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente, and Hank Aaron should also be in the discussion of course.

Goten
05-23-2007, 02:00 AM
On the field, both have been Top 5 all-time without a doubt. The 'roids issue makes it difficult to place Bonds, but he was well on his way to Top 10 pre 1998 (seems to be the possible 'roid/HGH start year). Bonds had a combination of speed, power, and fielding ability that is a true rarity. Only Griffey was considered his equal in their prime for being the most complete player. Barry gave a new place in the game to the IBB and completely changed the way his opponents approached the game. Other than Ruth, Mays, Mantle, and Williams, I can't name any more complete players. Griffey would have been there if not for the injuries. Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente, and Hank Aaron should also be in the discussion of course.

I would say more 99, that's where game of shadow states.

fadetoblack2880
05-23-2007, 08:03 AM
I hate them both equally.