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WVRed
05-21-2007, 11:42 PM
Before everybody starts packing their things and leaving, I want to applaud the decision made by Boss and GIK. Since this forum has been split today and this new board was created, I have seen many posters vent their frustrations about it and feel like they have been suckerpunched in doing so.

I have made attempts at starting message boards for the Bengals and Kentucky Wildcats, as well as attempts in running sim leagues, none of which were ANYWHERE NEAR as successful as Redszone. However, this website has been growing and is at a point where this decision had to be made due to the quality of the board degenerating. Trust me when I say that this was not an easy decision for them to make.

To those of you who are on the outside of the ORG and looking in as well as to those who are new to the board, take time to read the posts in ORG and learn. I'm not saying you have to copy a specific poster or quote Bill James, Sabremetrics, or whatever, but just take the time to learn what makes a quality post and what doesn't.

Take it from me, I started posting on the Cincinnati.com board when I was 14, which would probably make me one of the youngest posters at the time the board was created. I joined, but I had an altercation and was banned but allowed to return. I learned the hard way that if I was going to stay here that I was going to have to grow up and conform to the standards that were set in place not only by Boss and GIK, but the veteran posters who were here originally.

I could have left for other message boards(Fanhome was popular at the time), but I wanted to stay because I knew that in time that this board would be very special. The decision that Boss and GIK have made in regards to the board I believe will be very beneficial to the site and you will see not only more growth on Redszone, but a lot better quality. We might see some posters weeded out, but that's life.

To Boss and GIK, hats off to you guys. If we had the reputation system still in place, I don't think there could be enough to give out. Not only to you guys, but the mods as well. Chip, Paint, Joseph, Zombie, R4L, macro and Ochre. You guys have the most thankless and merciless job on this board and it is very appreciated.

Thanks for everything, and I honestly believe that this board will continue to grow and thrive.

Reds Freak
05-21-2007, 11:49 PM
Good post WV. If I have learned one thing from reading RedsZone for the past six years it is that overreaction is a way of life around here. ;) Another thing that is part of the culture of the board is that we are all very passionate about Reds baseball and the relationships that we create with other Reds and baseball fans on this board. Any drastic change to the board, to the team, to the front office is most likely going to illicit this type of response. While I am skeptical of the changes, I am willing to see how the change plays out in the long run...

jimbo
05-21-2007, 11:56 PM
To those of you who are on the outside of the ORG and looking in as well as to those who are new to the board, take time to read the posts in ORG and learn. I'm not saying you have to copy a specific poster or quote Bill James, Sabremetrics, or whatever, but just take the time to learn what makes a quality post and what doesn't.


The thing is that many of us have displayed this by earning the required rep points to become a member of the ORG. We came and played by the rules and were told we were deserving. I sure has heck never got 30 rep points by one poster at one time. I also understand the need to revamp the system but can't understand the reasoning for punishing those who did everything by the book from day one.

I've done said my peace and this will be the last I say anything about it because I don't want to be disrespectful. I respect the fact that this house belongs to Boss-Hog and GIK and you must live by their rules if you want to be a part of it. It's a great forum and still most likely will continue to be, but having said that, I doubt I will be a part of it much anymore because it makes me feel like I'm back in high school in the sense I was never a part of the popular cliques even back then.

Dracodave
05-22-2007, 12:01 AM
The thing is that many of us have displayed this by earning the required rep points to become a member of the ORG. We came and played by the rules and were told we were deserving. I sure has heck never got 30 rep points by one poster at one time. I also understand the need to revamp the system but can't understand the reasoning for punishing those who did everything by the book from day one.

I've done said my peace and this will be the last I say anything about it because I don't want to be disrespectful. I respect the fact that this house belongs to Boss-Hog and GIK and you must live by their rules if you want to be a part of it. It's a great forum and still most likely will continue to be, but having said that, I doubt I will be a part of it much anymore because it makes me feel like I'm back in high school in the sense I was never a part of the popular cliques even back then.


I voiced my opinioned twice, about how bad (I used the word sucks) a player was and how dumb (I used the word stupid) trade idea have gotten. I got rep points for calling the trade idea's dumb and at the same time I got a 20%warning for it, because I was mean.

I dont care if that was holding me out of the ORG or not, but the truth is..I have no intention of ever applying to get back into it...just as the mods and the rest of the board has no intention of ever letting me into it.

George Foster
05-22-2007, 12:23 AM
The thing is that many of us have displayed this by earning the required rep points to become a member of the ORG. We came and played by the rules and were told we were deserving. I sure has heck never got 30 rep points by one poster at one time. I also understand the need to revamp the system but can't understand the reasoning for punishing those who did everything by the book from day one.

I've done said my peace and this will be the last I say anything about it because I don't want to be disrespectful. I respect the fact that this house belongs to Boss-Hog and GIK and you must live by their rules if you want to be a part of it. It's a great forum and still most likely will continue to be, but having said that, I doubt I will be a part of it much anymore because it makes me feel like I'm back in high school in the sense I was never a part of the popular cliques even back then.

I did it the right way too my friend. 4900 posts +- and 431 points. I posted everynight on the game thread which I loved to do.

WVPacman
05-22-2007, 12:53 AM
This is just terrible news for me!

WVPacman
05-22-2007, 01:10 AM
I don't know what to say about the changes!! Im at a lost for words.All the hard work that I put into this site just went down the drain and im back at the bottom again.Listen guys I'll be the first to tell you that im not as smart as half of the posters on here.I don't write well thought out posts as all of the others do but it truly is not my fault.I really hate and I mean I really hate bringing this out in the open but I feel it needs to come out so ALL OF YOU can understand me better.The main reason why my posts does'nt have all the well thought out details like all of your guys post's does is b/c I was born with cyerabl Pausey all down the right side of my body,There for it made my body slower and thought process slower.

I don't want to hear no im sorrys or I feel bad for you posts b/c I've heard them all.When the rep points started I had to start from 0 and work myself up to 200 points.You guys don't know how hard that was for me to win all the main posters trust!! and when I did I was the happest poster on here b/c I knew I done a great thing by showing you I was worthy to post with the big boys.

Now all of a sudden tonight I find myself back at the bottom and it hurts b/c I put everything I had to reach the top(The ORG)I know I will never be voted in by the members and it hurts but I can't do a thing about it.The main thing that im trying to say is I wish the mods would have though things threw better b/c this decision really hurt more people than it helped b/c everybody isn't the same!! Some people really does have something wrong with them and can't help it..I can honestly say were I worked so hard it feels like it was all for nothing.I honestly feel like i've been punched in the stomich and kicked all over the ground.

George Foster
05-22-2007, 01:44 AM
I don't know what to say about the changes!! Im at a lost for words.All the hard work that I put into this site just went down the drain and im back at the bottom again.Listen guys I'll be the first to tell you that im not as smart as half of the posters on here.I don't write well thought out posts as all of the others do but it truly is not my fault.I really hate and I mean I really hate bringing this out in the open but I feel it needs to come out so ALL OF YOU can understand me better.The main reason why my posts does'nt have all the well thought out details like all of your guys post's does is b/c I was born with cyerabl Pausey all down the right side of my body,There for it made my body slower and thought process slower.

I don't want to hear no im sorrys or I feel bad for you posts b/c I've heard them all.When the rep points started I had to start from 0 and work myself up to 200 points.You guys don't know how hard that was for me to win all the main posters trust!! and when I did I was the happest poster on here b/c I knew I done a great thing by showing you I was worthy to post with the big boys.

Now all of a sudden tonight I find myself back at the bottom and it hurts b/c I put everything I had to reach the top(The ORG)I know I will never be voted in by the members and it hurts but I can't do a thing about it.The main thing that im trying to say is I wish the mods would have though things threw better b/c this decision really hurt more people than it helped b/c everybody isn't the same!! Some people really does have something wrong with them and can't help it..I can honestly say were I worked so hard it feels like it was all for nothing.I honestly feel like i've been punched in the stomich and kicked all over the ground.


you the man Pacman:thumbup: You are a great poster. You don't need their approval. You got my approval, and I respect you.

TeamSelig
05-22-2007, 01:48 AM
you the man Pacman:thumbup: You are a great poster. You don't need their approval. You got my approval, and I respect you.

Ditto. Ignore the 'elite' buddy. You are not below anybody else here, and definitely not a 'mess'

If you stick around I'll see ya on the Sun Deck as I'd rather not even apply for ORG.

WVPacman
05-22-2007, 02:07 AM
Thanks George Foster and TeamSelig that really means alot.Its just dishearting after everthing I had to do to win everybodys respect and now all of that went down the drain.Im going to stick around but it seems like me and alot of more posters are being treated like misfits and that isn't right.I know boss hogg and gik are trying to make this board better and I have no problem with that.I have worked to dang hard to be back at the bottom again.When I was lucky enough to make it to the ORG board I made it a promise to give as many points as I could b/c I know what I had to go threw.Ill keep posting and I want EVERYBODY ELSE that is stuck back at the bottom like I am to keep posting. We beat it once already and people we can beat it again.

savafan
05-22-2007, 06:09 AM
It's about growing pains and learning curves, and sometimes, you just have to start over. For the record, WVPacman, you know I love you! I know your story from our PM conversations in the past. But don't give up hope guys, seriously, this isn't the end of the world.

I'm already seeing the quality of posts in The Sun Deck improving, and it hasn't even been a full 24 hours yet.

And, for the record, just like WVRed, I also did some foolish things when I first came over to this board way back in the day, and I took my ban/suspension (whatever the proper term was...), was angry for a day, waited it out and got on with my life, then once I was allowed to post on here again, I always remembered to check myself before I hit the "post reply" button.

There is no clique, there is not "elite" membership group. We're all fans of the same team, and if we were all going out to a game together, I wouldn't care if I was sitting with Dracodave, TeamSelig, GAC, or the Teamsters...I respect you all the same.

Truly, everyone of you who has posted on this thread so far are among my favorite posters to read. So, right now, The Sun Deck is your board. It will be what you make it. Just keep doing what you've done all along, and trust me, people will take notice.

Degenerate39
05-22-2007, 07:13 AM
I have made attempts at starting message boards for the Bengals and Kentucky Wildcats, as well as attempts in running sim leagues, none of which were ANYWHERE NEAR as successful as Redszone. However, this website has been growing and is at a point where this decision had to be made due to the quality of the board degenerating. Trust me when I say that this was not an easy decision for them to make.

No pun intended I hope

redsmetz
05-22-2007, 01:39 PM
It's about growing pains and learning curves, and sometimes, you just have to start over. For the record, WVPacman, you know I love you! I know your story from our PM conversations in the past. But don't give up hope guys, seriously, this isn't the end of the world.

I'm already seeing the quality of posts in The Sun Deck improving, and it hasn't even been a full 24 hours yet.

And, for the record, just like WVRed, I also did some foolish things when I first came over to this board way back in the day, and I took my ban/suspension (whatever the proper term was...), was angry for a day, waited it out and got on with my life, then once I was allowed to post on here again, I always remembered to check myself before I hit the "post reply" button.

There is no clique, there is not "elite" membership group. We're all fans of the same team, and if we were all going out to a game together, I wouldn't care if I was sitting with Dracodave, TeamSelig, GAC, or the Teamsters...I respect you all the same.

Truly, everyone of you who has posted on this thread so far are among my favorite posters to read. So, right now, The Sun Deck is your board. It will be what you make it. Just keep doing what you've done all along, and trust me, people will take notice.

I have to echo what Savafan said. I'm thrilled to see so many on the Sun Deck getting a chance for their voice to be heard.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2007, 01:46 PM
I'd like to talk to a lot of the kicked-out folks through other avenues than PM. If folks do go to another site, pm me, and I'll drop in.

WVRed
05-22-2007, 03:38 PM
I'd like to talk to a lot of the kicked-out folks through other avenues than PM. If folks do go to another site, pm me, and I'll drop in.

A lot of members are switching over to Strike 3 (http://www.strike3forums.com/). It is ran by missionhockey(who either used to post here or still currently does). There are some good Reds fans over there currently and I am in a keeper fantasy league with some of the members there, but the rules are a lot more laid back than Redszone and I think some members will be more welcome there than over here.

The only complaint I have with Strike 3 was that I referenced Redszone back when we signed Eric Milton(Saw it on Redszone) and my post was edited to "another Reds message board". Apparently you are not allowed to reference other forums.:(

TeamBoone
05-22-2007, 03:46 PM
I have to echo what Savafan said. I'm thrilled to see so many on the Sun Deck getting a chance for their voice to be heard.


Heard? yes. Considered? not so much.

Ltlabner
05-22-2007, 03:48 PM
Heard? yes. Considered? not so much.

I don't know. I've been reading over the posts on SD. It's refreshing to hear input from people who basically been drowned out over the years. I don't necessarly agree with all of it (as if I ever would), but it's nice to see different schools of thought being explored without someone getting bulldozed.

texasdave
05-22-2007, 04:03 PM
I have to echo what Savafan said. I'm thrilled to see so many on the Sun Deck getting a chance for their voice to be heard.

We outcasts had a chance for our voices to be heard on ORG. But I suppose that wasn't quite as thrilling.

I never really thought of myself as being an ORG-level poster. Yet it still stung to get booted out.

I freely admit that more of the better posters are in ORG. Not all certainly, but more. And I will miss them not being able to post in Sun Deck. I started most of my threads in Reds Live so more people could access them. And I knew that what I posted could and would be challenged by people in both areas of the board. Now that number has been cut in half. And being challenged in one's opinions is good. It forces you to think. It exposes holes in your thinking that never occurred to you. You learned more. And learning is never a bad thing.

Shaggy Sanchez
05-22-2007, 04:08 PM
I don't know. I've been reading over the posts on SD. It's refreshing to hear input from people who basically been drowned out over the years. I don't necessarly agree with all of it (as if I ever would), but it's nice to see different schools of thought being explored without someone getting bulldozed.

Doesn't that say something about the board in general if all of a sudden people are noticing posters that have been posting for years. It almost sounds as if you are saying that when the current members of ORG were able to post everywhere than all the non ORG members were always wrong and pushed aside. I always thought different schools of thought were always presented and if the people aren't now getting bulldozed what does that say about where the problem might have been.

paintmered
05-22-2007, 04:12 PM
Doesn't that say something about the board in general if all of a sudden people are noticing posters that have been posting for years. It almost sounds as if you are saying that when the current members of ORG were able to post everywhere than all the non ORG members were always wrong and pushed aside. I always thought different schools of thought were always presented and if the people aren't now getting bulldozed what does that say about where the problem might have been.

Hence a major reason why ORG members are not permitted to post in the sundeck. ORG members absolutely bulldozed new posters in RL. It was part of the problem.

TeamCasey
05-22-2007, 04:42 PM
I don't know. I've been reading over the posts on SD. It's refreshing to hear input from people who basically been drowned out over the years. I don't necessarly agree with all of it (as if I ever would), but it's nice to see different schools of thought being explored without someone getting bulldozed.

I was trying to refrain from posting over here because I know people need to vent. I see this point as being really positive for Sundeck. I've heard so many people over the years say they don't want to post and get pounced on or nitpicked. It gives those folks breathing room.

paulrichjr
05-22-2007, 04:56 PM
Hence a major reason why ORG members are not permitted to post in the sundeck. ORG members absolutely bulldozed new posters in RL. It was part of the problem.

I didn't think about that until you said it... You guys certainly spent a lot of time thinking this through and as I couldn't see the logic the first 5 minutes I understand it better now.

dfs
05-22-2007, 05:36 PM
I was trying to refrain from posting over here because I know people need to vent. I see this point as being really positive for Sundeck. I've heard so many people over the years say they don't want to post and get pounced on or nitpicked. It gives those folks breathing room.

....what? Are you suggesting that ORG posters behave differently (nastier) when not in the ORG or that the behavior of ORG posters was somehow driving new people away from posting in redslive....and the way to get new folks to post more/better posts is to take away the ORG posters so everybody will play nice in the sandbox and then once you are out of the sandbox, those new posters will be better equiped to handle the behavior of ORG posters? Isn't that an argument for policing ORG members?

I mean that seriously. I'm honestly confused by your statement. Help me out here. I'm honestly trying to understand and I just don't.

WVRed
05-22-2007, 06:20 PM
....what? Are you suggesting that ORG posters behave differently (nastier) when not in the ORG or that the behavior of ORG posters was somehow driving new people away from posting in redslive....and the way to get new folks to post more/better posts is to take away the ORG posters so everybody will play nice in the sandbox and then once you are out of the sandbox, those new posters will be better equiped to handle the behavior of ORG posters? Isn't that an argument for policing ORG members?

I mean that seriously. I'm honestly confused by your statement. Help me out here. I'm honestly trying to understand and I just don't.

That is exactly what TC is saying.

We have some very knowledgable posters on ORG that determine the value of a player by stats. When a poster on Reds Live would make a post trying to tear down a player such as say Adam Dunn, posters would jump in with every stat imaginable to uphold Dunn(and vice versa). As paint said, people were getting railroaded in Reds Live and it caused a lot of the problems on the board.

Ludwig Reds Fan
05-22-2007, 06:39 PM
I think posters should be put in one of 10 different Reds forums, only being able to post in the forum they are placed in:

1. The Old Red Guard - This is where all the long-time posters (that the mods like, of course) would go.
2. The Todd Benziger Room - For all the nice guy posters who also happen to be kind of boring.
3. The Marge Schott Room - For all the "outspoken" posters
4. The Sean Casey Room - For all the nice guy posters who also happen to have a little charisma.
5. The Adam Dunn Room - For posters who have a lot of power in their words, but also tend to "wiff" too often when it comes to subject matter.
6. The Homer Bailey Room - For people who only post, hoping to gain access to TORG.
7. The Lurker Room - For people who like to read the threads, but never post.
8. The Kearns and Lopez Room - For people thinking of trying out a different forum.
9. The Ken Griffey Jr Room - Reserved for posters who have an unusually high amount of man-love for KGJ.
10. The Kingdome Astroturf Room - Reserved for posters who have an unusually low amount of man-love for KGJ.


I think if the posters were divided in this fashion, that the quality of posts in each room would increase dramatically. Also, if a poster is placed in one forum but wants to be in another, he/she should be able to change forums by writing a 2 page explanation to the mod of their choice, followed by a 2/3rds approval vote by TORG members, followed by 3/4 mod approval.


All in all I like the 2 forum change though. Being a new member, one thing that really used to bother me was being able to interact with the more established posters here. Problem solved. "You and your folks, me and my folks." And never shall the two pass again.

Getting rid of the rep system was a great idea too. Sure it was a tool to try to keep people in line, but it was all too frequently misused. And everyone knows that any tool that can be misused needs to be wiped out. Sidenote: Please support my cause www.banthehammer-ijustsmashedmythumb.org I know with your support we can all but eliminate hammer related thumb bruises.

Well anyway, just wanted to say great job, great site, and great changes! To the newer posters, I look forward to hearing all of your great insights and information, and to the older posters, I look forward to our new segregated "see-but-dont-touch" relationship.

TeamCasey
05-22-2007, 06:47 PM
....what? Are you suggesting that ORG posters behave differently (nastier) when not in the ORG.

Nope.



....or that the behavior of ORG posters was somehow driving new people away from posting in redslive.

IMO, there was a steady friction. I've also had private conversations with newer people who were intimidated to post for a variety of reasons.



........and the way to get new folks to post more/better posts is to take away the ORG posters so everybody will play nice in the sandbox and then once you are out of the sandbox, those new posters will be better equiped to handle the behavior of ORG posters?.


Maybe ..... hadn't really thought of it that way. For me it was about the numbers and the noise. It wasn't fun to read 10-20 pages of recurring friction. I think many people simply stopped reading. I did. Not blaming RL or ORG ..... although there's enough blame to spread around. The heart of the issue (IMO) was the rapid, huge growth of the board.



Isn't that an argument for policing ORG members?

Nope though I've been won over by sending everyone to there own corners for everyone's benefit. I had to chew on all of this the same as many of you are. I think the changes will help the long term growth of the board.

That said, I agree Sundeck should be able to have a game thread.

I hope I answered your questions and didn't screw up the quotes too badly. I'm a little tired tonight. :)

James B.
05-22-2007, 06:55 PM
I don't post very often and don't mind the change. I just wished that the posters in the sundeck should be allowed access to a gamethread. I have been posting and mostly reading on this site (used to be under the name Tennessee Reds Fan) since about the time it started and can understand why some people feel like outcast. A huge amount of quality posters were demoted. One thing that I don't understand is why people are calling posting on this message board work. I think this is a message board to have fun and talk baseball with reds fans but it seems that some are "working to win elder posters approval. This makes no since to me.

TeamBoone
05-22-2007, 11:39 PM
Hence a major reason why ORG members are not permitted to post in the sundeck. ORG members absolutely bulldozed new posters in RL. It was part of the problem.

Some very much did; I didn't like it either. But I truly think the majority did not. Most of us know who the offenders were, and if they weren't reprimanded for it, they should have been.

It was like the bullies on the playground in grade school. And we all know how we felt about them, even if we weren't a victim.

paintmered
05-22-2007, 11:45 PM
Some very much did; I didn't like it either. But I truly think the majority did not. Most of us know who the offenders were, and if they weren't reprimanded for it, they should have been.

It was like the bullies on the playground in grade school. And we all know how we felt about them, even if we weren't a victim.

I do agree with you TB. It wasn't the majority. However, the posts in question generally were not in violation of the rules. How am I to reprimand someone for posting in an intimidating way? Stats can be really intimidating to someone not used to them. But they aren't against the rules. Posters who did cross the line were punished and punished severely. It didn't stop the problem.

This solution solves the problem. Unequivocally.

reds44
05-22-2007, 11:48 PM
That is exactly what TC is saying.

We have some very knowledgable posters on ORG that determine the value of a player by stats. When a poster on Reds Live would make a post trying to tear down a player such as say Adam Dunn, posters would jump in with every stat imaginable to uphold Dunn(and vice versa). As paint said, people were getting railroaded in Reds Live and it caused a lot of the problems on the board.
I think some of it comes from the ability to respect somebody else's opinon. You could feel their opinon is completely wrong, but it still needs to be respected. Nobody is perfect, and I'm just as guilty as everybody else. Sometimes, opinons don't need facts. It's just how you personally feel.

When I found out I wasn't part of the top 240, I was mad and dissapointed. I applied for the ORG, and honestly thought about leaving if I didn't make it. I mean, I really, really want to be part of the ORG. I hope I'm liked enough and seen knowledgable enough by ORG posters to be in, and I still feel that way. I find it especially hard for bubble posters like me and OBM. You want to be part of the ORG, byt at the same time you don't want to try to distinguish youself or put yourself above sun deck posters.

However, if I don't get voted in I'm not going to leave. If I sit here and say if I don't get voted into the ORG I'm going to leave, I am as guilty as those who I was mad at for not seeing me as one of the top 240 posters on the board. I'll be here posting in the Sun Deck with everybody else and doing my best to contribute to redszone anyway I can.

I hope I get voted into the ORG, if for no other reason then to know I am a quality poster and an asset to the board. If I'm not, all I can do is try to become an asset and improve my posts.

TeamBoone
05-22-2007, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by dfs
Isn't that an argument for policing ORG members?

Nope though I've been won over by sending everyone to there own corners for everyone's benefit. I had to chew on all of this the same as many of you are. I think the changes will help the long term growth of the board.

That said, I agree Sundeck should be able to have a game thread.

I hope I answered your questions and didn't screw up the quotes too badly. I'm a little tired tonight. :)

Actually, I think it's a very valid argument. Any poster who was guilty of bullying/badgering (especially ORG members) other board members, regardless of the forum, should be/have been reprimanded for it.

Debate within a discussion thread is one thing; belittling posters, especially newer ones, is quite something else.

Banning ORG from SD would not be my choice in dealing with it, but I guess it will work! It's like separating battling children, instead of punishing those who are to blame. It's easier that way.

Dracodave
05-22-2007, 11:51 PM
Some very much did; I didn't like it either. But I truly think the majority did not. Most of us know who the offenders were, and if they weren't reprimanded for it, they should have been.

It was like the bullies on the playground in grade school. And we all know how we felt about them, even if we weren't a victim.


Bulldozed both in the RL! and ORG threads themselves. It didn't matter the topic. Posting of a different idea or posting anything that showed someone a different view of the situation..thats when it got bad. Verbal attacks, getting called out, pretty much feeling like the statement of "little brains" literally.

No one felt right around alot of the ORG posters, one of the many reasons why I didnt post there. The split was evident BEFORE this change. The change just pretty much signified to all of us, what we felt before it happened.

paintmered
05-22-2007, 11:52 PM
I think some of it comes from the ability to respect somebody else's opinon. You could feel their opinon is completely wrong, but it still needs to be respected. Nobody is perfect, and I'm just as guilty as everybody else. Sometimes, opinons don't need facts. It's just how you personally feel.

From the other perspective, it gets frustrating refuting the same point time and time again. What is new to one poster is a monotonous rehash to another. It doesn't excuse behavior, but I've heard the frustrations from more than one ORG poster.


However, if I don't get voted in I'm not going to leave. If I si here and say if I don't get voted into the ORG I'm going to leave, I am as guilty as those who I was mad at for trying to distinguish themselves from others. I'll be here posting in the Sun Deck with everybody else and doing my best to contribute to redszone anyway I can.

I hope I get voted into the ORG, if for no other reason then to know I am a quality poster and an assest to the board. If I'm not, all I can do is try to become an assest and improve my posts.

This attitude will serve you well, reds44. I am very pleased to hear you say this.

TeamBoone
05-23-2007, 12:01 AM
I do agree with you TB. It wasn't the majority. However, the posts in question generally were not in violation of the rules. How am I to reprimand someone for posting in an intimidating way? Stats can be really intimidating to someone not used to them. But they aren't against the rules. Posters who did cross the line were punished and punished severely. It didn't stop the problem.

This solution solves the problem. Unequivocally.

Yes, stats are tricky... but there's a right way and wrong way to represent yourself when trying to make a point. Many were just flat out disrespectful.

And stats were only part of the problem. It happened all too often within several topics, so often that I felt pretty angry a whole lot because of how newbies were being treated. Angry enough to know better than to post, because I new I'd be reprimanded.

I was stressed out a ton over this because it really bothered me that adults could not be more tolerant and civil to each other. Some ORG posters were given way too much leeway, and that made people angry as well (me included).

Ah well, maybe separating the two was the best way to go, but I strongly feel that a few of the ORG posters ruined it for those of us who like to interact with everyone.

And I know I'm beating a dead horse, so I will say nothing more... but I am VERY VERY unhappy.

SandyD
05-23-2007, 12:05 AM
My hope is that ORG and SD will both be quality boards, with good discussion.

It's up to us now.

jimbo
05-23-2007, 12:25 AM
Yes, stats are tricky... but there's a right way and wrong way to represent yourself when trying to make a point. Many were just flat out disrespectful.

And stats were only part of the problem. It happened all too often within several topics, so often that I felt pretty angry a whole lot because of how newbies were being treated. Angry enough to know better than to post, because I new I'd be reprimanded.

I was stressed out a ton over this because it really bothered me that adults could not be more tolerant and civil to each other. Some ORG posters were given way too much leeway, and that made people angry as well (me included).

Ah well, maybe separating the two was the best way to go, but I strongly feel that a few of the ORG posters ruined it for those of us who like to interact with everyone.

And I know I'm beating a dead horse, so I will say nothing more... but I am VERY VERY unhappy.

I think this post is dead on the mark, as posts by TeamBoone usually are. There were only a small handfull of ORG posters who continuously acted in condescending manners to not only new posters, but esablished ones as well. What's funny is that we probably all know who they are, but they continue their ways. I got to the point where I tried to just ignore them because reacting would just make it worse. It wasn't only the condescending nature of their posting, but their obnoxious ways of suggesting that their "opinions" were absolute and undebatable.

Like I've said before, I really don't have a problem with the rules changes except for taking away access from ORG members who have proven their worth. What makes it even worse is seeing the posters who do act in constantly negative ways as mentioned still going about their way even though they probably ruined it for everyone.

Also, after reading through the game threads since the change, I really feel the quality of them has declined because several good posters who were regulars there no longer have access.

I wasn't going to say anything more on the subject, but I just really thought TeamBoone was dead on and wanted to expand on it. My two day mini-protest is over. I mainly only stayed away for awhile because I was upset and didn't want to say something I would regret later. I just really love the Reds and there are too many posters here who I respect too much to just walk away, even though I no longer can converse with many of them. I'll just have to live with the reality of the situation and move on. One thing I will not do though is change who I am just to get acceptance into ORG. If my contributions are not considered enough, then so be it. I'll make new friends in the Sun Deck.

harangatang
05-23-2007, 01:33 AM
Hence a major reason why ORG members are not permitted to post in the sundeck. ORG members absolutely bulldozed new posters in RL. It was part of the problem.I agree with you 100%. I can say that when I joined I kind of fell into the category of wayward posters but I learned alot and was eventually promoted to the ORG. I feel that while my knowledge may not be advanced as some (and never will be for that matter) I still understand and argue some advanced valid points that don't suit posting where I am slated to now. For example I argued throughout the offseason that the Reds would not be a contender this year due to the Pythagoran W-L record in the 2006 and the lack of significant changes in the offseason. I am appreciative of what Redszone has taught me about baseball throughout the last 2 years. I do have to add that I feel it was disrespectful on the part of the adminstration of this board that I was not notified that my posting priveleges were revoked nor was there any official reasoning for this change in my posting priveleges. The fact of the matter is that I was nominated by my fellow posters here to be good enough to post in the ORG but I suspect that many of those posters were also banned from the ORG as well. I really have no idea why I was banned but this appears to be the turd icing on the Reds pitiful season.

Boss-Hog
05-23-2007, 07:35 AM
I do have to add that I feel it was disrespectful on the part of the adminstration of this board that I was not notified that my posting priveleges were revoked nor was there any official reasoning for this change in my posting priveleges. The fact of the matter is that I was nominated by my fellow posters here to be good enough to post in the ORG but I suspect that many of those posters were also banned from the ORG as well. I really have no idea why I was banned but this appears to be the turd icing on the Reds pitiful season.

I covered that here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58237), but if you have any other questions, please let me know.

dfs
05-23-2007, 11:36 AM
That said, I agree Sundeck should be able to have a game thread.

I hope I answered your questions and didn't screw up the quotes too badly. I'm a little tired tonight. :)

Thanks. You did just fine TeamCasey. I disagree with your perspective, but you explained it well. (That's OK. We're allowed to disagree.)

FWIW I also agree that allowing a gamethread in the sundeck would have been a nice gesture, but it's not my house, so I don't get to make the rules.

harangatang
05-23-2007, 01:25 PM
I covered that here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58237), but if you have any other questions, please let me know.
Uh, Yes I do and I will be a little more specific.
1. Why is it that none of us were notified of these changes by you or any other of the moderators? That is not answered in that section nor are there any instructions telling us how to find out where we were placed by you. The only way I found out was by going to the ORG and getting an error page.

2. The official reasoning for this change was inflation of membership yet many members newer than myself were let into the ORG. It seems this inflation would affect many newer members that have joined the board and been nominated to the ORG.

I can't lie about the fact that I'm pretty upset not only about the move but the way it was presented to us. It really made me feel like I was not wanted on Redszone any more and I feel like I was hand-picked by you and other mods to leave. This supposed "inflation" sounds like nothing more than an excuse to single out posters that were chosen by fellow peers to be worthy of posting at the next level. It really is ashame because I came on the board last night wanting to discuss the Reds and I can't fully do that because essentially you told me I couldn't.

westofyou
05-23-2007, 01:44 PM
Why is it that none of us were notified of these changes by you or any other of the moderators?

Redszone is a big ole board run by two guys who have lives and work 40 hours plus a week, the board doesn't make any jack at all. This is about as organized as it is ever going to get, it's a grassroots thing, not ESPN, not an extension of a big business interest, just two guys who own some software and pay the hosting bills and deal with knuckleheads 365 days a year.

They don't owe us crap, not me, not you not any of us. If they want to sell the domain tomorrow to a fan group of Man United zealots then they could and we'd all be posting on a soccer board tomorrow. What's done is done, no amount of zeros and ones or outrage will change that.

RedsManRick
05-23-2007, 02:12 PM
I think this post is dead on the mark, as posts by TeamBoone usually are. There were only a small handfull of ORG posters who continuously acted in condescending manners to not only new posters, but esablished ones as well. What's funny is that we probably all know who they are, but they continue their ways. I got to the point where I tried to just ignore them because reacting would just make it worse. It wasn't only the condescending nature of their posting, but their obnoxious ways of suggesting that their "opinions" were absolute and undebatable.

Not sure if I'm one of the people you're referencing here, but one of the major frustrations of the stat-inclined group is that any time we back something up with statistics, some people take offense and call us arrogant and condescending. Also, a lot of times people honestly don't realize that they are coming across a certain way. While I wouldn't want to get in to an argument, sometimes a PM that says "hey, not sure if you meant to come across this way, but _________________" can go a long ways to nipping those sorts of problems in the bud.

I think that often the assumed tone of a post is not the fault of the poster, but of the reader. Many people are quite defensive regarding their own position, regardless of how informed it may or may not be. When asked for the reasoning behind their opinion, they immediately take offense, as if asking them for reasoning is calling in to question their right to hold that opinion. I've seen many a poster say very ignorant things about statistics, making horribly incorrect assumptions due to a lack of understanding, and then claim abuse when somebody calls them on it.

I agree that every poster should understand that he/she might be wrong in their assertions. Nobody has a claim on absolute truth here. Certainly there are rude, arrogant, and condescending posters of all types, but I think there should also be an expectation that in the course of a discussion, people will disagree, sometimes fundamentally. We cannot expect anybody to caveat every post with a leading sentence "I understand the limitations of my opinion and understand that I might be wrong".

I'm all for civility, but civility requires an open mind from all parties. It requires people to play devil's advocate with their own opinion from time to time. It's very easy to be civil when we agree with each other. What we need to develop is a vocabulary for peacefully disagreeing. In my mind, one of the primary differences between the typical ORG discussion and the typical Live discussion on the same topic is this ability to civilly disagree.

If you're upset that you didn't make the cut, I think one of first questions to ask is how you handle yourself on the board during a disagreement with another poster. Do you continue the conversation constructively? Do you end/leave it when it's clear that you can't? Do you honestly consider that you might be wrong? Do you investigate the legitimacy of another poster's claim before disagreeing?

harangatang
05-23-2007, 02:19 PM
Redszone is a big ole board run by two guys who have lives and work 40 hours plus a week, the board doesn't make any jack at all. This is about as organized as it is ever going to get, it's a grassroots thing, not ESPN, not an extension of a big business interest, just two guys who own some software and pay the hosting bills and deal with knuckleheads 365 days a year.

They don't owe us crap, not me, not you not any of us. If they want to sell the domain tomorrow to a fan group of Man United zealots then they could and we'd all be posting on a soccer board tomorrow. What's done is done, no amount of zeros and ones or outrage will change that.Oh really so those 2 guys have enough time to go through and select members of who they want or not, type up a vague letter, and answer people's questions but not notify the excluded members of the ORG? That sounds like alot of horse manure to me. It is their site but why play favorites with members who were already chosen by fellow posters to post in the ORG?

harangatang
05-23-2007, 02:22 PM
If you're upset that you didn't make the cut, I think one of first questions to ask is how you handle yourself on the board during a disagreement with another poster. Do you continue the conversation constructively? Do you end/leave it when it's clear that you can't? Do you honestly consider that you might be wrong? Do you investigate the legitimacy of another poster's claim before disagreeing?Some of the most rude and condescending posters of this board are in that forum right now. I don't think that was the only criteria and doubt that had any part in the decision making process.

westofyou
05-23-2007, 02:24 PM
Oh really so those 2 guys have enough time to go through and select members of who they want or not, type up a vague letter, and answer people's questions but not notify the excluded members of the ORG? That sounds like alot of horse manure to me. It is their site but why play favorites with members who were already chosen by fellow posters to post in the ORG?

Sorry it didn't work for you, and it is their site so they can do what they want, if you don't like it try somewhere else is the best I can suggest.

harangatang
05-23-2007, 02:53 PM
Sorry it didn't work for you, and it is their site so they can do what they want, if you don't like it try somewhere else is the best I can suggest.I've been waiting for someone to say that to me. Truthfully I think I'm more shocked about the way it was approached than anything. But I think that this may be more of a temporary thing but I could be wrong. I applied for reinstatement into the ORG so I hopefully I'll be back if I meet the criteria. In the meantime I'll be over at http://www.strike3forums.com/forums/cincinnati-reds/ discussing the Reds and not politics so I recommend anyone to so the same if anyone wants to do the same.

Red Leader
05-23-2007, 03:02 PM
I've been waiting for someone to say that to me. Truthfully I think I'm more shocked about the way it was approached than anything. But I think that this may be more of a temporary thing but I could be wrong. I applied for reinstatement into the ORG so I hopefully I'll be back if I meet the criteria.

I understand your frustration, harangatang, really, I do. I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past and wish you luck in getting back into the ORG. Posts like this:

Oh really so those 2 guys have enough time to go through and select members of who they want or not, type up a vague letter, and answer people's questions but not notify the excluded members of the ORG? That sounds like alot of horse manure to me. It is their site but why play favorites with members who were already chosen by fellow posters to post in the ORG?
are not going to help your cause, though. Like I said, I understand you are upset, and I understand you want answers, but the reality is that this site is ran by two people. Two normal people, just like you and me. They have regular jobs. They have families. I'm amazed that they've got as much done in the short time they have AND have spent extra time on here to answer people's questions. I would hope that you, as well as other posters could show them some patience and give them some time to answer your questions. From what I've seen, they've tried to answer every question asked to them. They are good people and this "change" was a difficult thing for them to do. I believe RFS said it in another thread (maybe even in this one) that those two did not sit at home, drinking beer, flip a coin, and laugh when deciding who they were going to take ORG permission away from. Far from it. I'm sure it was gut wrenching for them to make some of the decisions they did, but they had to do it to carry out the vision of what they see this board becoming. Glad to hear that you've reapplied for entrance into ORG and I'd hope that you'd keep making quality posts on the SunDeck until you are allowed to return to posting in the ORG.

harangatang
05-23-2007, 03:08 PM
I understand your frustration, harangatang, really, I do. I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past and wish you luck in getting back into the ORG. Posts like this:

are not going to help your cause, though. Like I said, I understand you are upset, and I understand you want answers, but the reality is that this site is ran by two people. Two normal people, just like you and me. They have regular jobs. They have families. I'm amazed that they've got as much done in the short time they have AND have spent extra time on here to answer people's questions. I would hope that you, as well as other posters could show them some patience and give them some time to answer your questions. From what I've seen, they've tried to answer every question asked to them. They are good people and this "change" was a difficult thing for them to do. I believe RFS said it in another thread (maybe even in this one) that those two did not sit at home, drinking beer, flip a coin, and laugh when deciding who they were going to take ORG permission away from. Far from it. I'm sure it was gut wrenching for them to make some of the decisions they did, but they had to do it to carry out the vision of what they see this board becoming. Glad to hear that you've reapplied for entrance into ORG and I'd hope that you'd keep making quality posts on the SunDeck until you are allowed to return to posting in the ORG.I understand what you are saying and thought the same thing when I wrote it. At the same time I took a look at the entire picture and not only what was done but the manner in which it occurred. I hope I am reinstated but I don't know what will happen. Sometimes I call things the way I see it and while it may not always be smart, in this situation no one else has said anything to make me think otherwise. If the manner in which this was done was better I think I would be fine with it. After all I just came on the board to post about the Reds last night to find an error message on the ORG and then find out about all of this.

jimbo
05-23-2007, 03:46 PM
Not sure if I'm one of the people you're referencing here, but one of the major frustrations of the stat-inclined group is that any time we back something up with statistics, some people take offense and call us arrogant and condescending. Also, a lot of times people honestly don't realize that they are coming across a certain way. While I wouldn't want to get in to an argument, sometimes a PM that says "hey, not sure if you meant to come across this way, but _________________" can go a long ways to nipping those sorts of problems in the bud.

I was not referring to you or any of the stat "geeks" (I mean that in a good way). Actually, I enjoy the posters who obviously take a good amount of time compiling stats to back their opinions. The posts I am referring to are the ones who suggest absoluteness in their opinions and contain an obvious condescending tone.


I think that often the assumed tone of a post is not the fault of the poster, but of the reader.

I don't know about often, but I'm sure that is the case some of the times. And I realize that some may not even realize how their opinions come across, but they should realize that just because they have a certain status here does not mean that they are right about everything.


If you're upset that you didn't make the cut, I think one of first questions to ask is how you handle yourself on the board during a disagreement with another poster. Do you continue the conversation constructively? Do you end/leave it when it's clear that you can't? Do you honestly consider that you might be wrong? Do you investigate the legitimacy of another poster's claim before disagreeing?

I normally always try to contain comments as "IMO" or "This is just my opinion," whenever I am in a disagreement or stating an opinion in my posts. I always try to consider that I could be wrong. The reason I am upset I "didn't make the cut" was that I played by the rules and had already proven myself. I can deal with not being a member of ORG, but it's the game thread issue that I will miss the most as I had just really began being involved in those within the past couple of weeks and had just recently got a small tv in my computer room to make following along easier.

I was only referring to a very small number of ORG members in my original posts. The vast majority there I have a lot of respect for and really enjoyed conversing with.

wolfboy
05-23-2007, 03:55 PM
I was not referring to you or any of the stat "geeks" (I mean that in a good way). Actually, I enjoy the posters who obviously take a good amount of time compiling stats to back their opinions. The posts I am referring to are the ones who suggest absoluteness in their opinions and contain an obvious condescending tone.



I don't know about often, but I'm sure that is the case some of the times. And I realize that some may not even realize how their opinions come across, but they should realize that just because they have a certain status here does not mean that they are right about everything.



I normally always try to contain comments as "IMO" or "This is just my opinion," whenever I am in a disagreement or stating an opinion in my posts. I always try to consider that I could be wrong. The reason I am upset I "didn't make the cut" was that I played by the rules and had already proven myself. I can deal with not being a member of ORG, but it's the game thread issue that I will miss the most as I had just really began being involved in those within the past couple of weeks and had just recently got a small tv in my computer room to make following along easier.

I was only referring to a very small number of ORG members in my original posts. The vast majority there I have a lot of respect for and really enjoyed conversing with.

You may have commented on this before, but have you tried the chat system yet? With the changes on the board, it should be pretty popular going forward. If you give chat a chance over the next few weeks, you might find it just as enjoyable.

jimbo
05-23-2007, 04:02 PM
You may have commented on this before, but have you tried the chat system yet? With the changes on the board, it should be pretty popular going forward. If you give chat a chance over the next few weeks, you might find it just as enjoyable.

I remember giving it a try a while after I joined and remembered not liking it very much. I think I was having technical difficulties with it. I had just gotten used the game thread and liked the flow of it. But I may give the chat another try, thanks.

wolfboy
05-23-2007, 04:16 PM
I remember giving it a try a while after I joined and remembered not liking it very much. I think I was having technical difficulties with it. I had just gotten used the game thread and liked the flow of it. But I may give the chat another try, thanks.

You aren't the first to note technical problems with chat. Perhaps it deserves its own thread.

919191
05-23-2007, 05:22 PM
Redszone is a big ole board run by two guys who have lives and work 40 hours plus a week, the board doesn't make any jack at all. This is about as organized as it is ever going to get, it's a grassroots thing, not ESPN, not an extension of a big business interest, just two guys who own some software and pay the hosting bills and deal with knuckleheads 365 days a year.

They don't owe us crap, not me, not you not any of us. If they want to sell the domain tomorrow to a fan group of Man United zealots then they could and we'd all be posting on a soccer board tomorrow. What's done is done, no amount of zeros and ones or outrage will change that.

I think maybe this post should be a permanent fixture on the main page. It is as succinct an explanation as I have seen yet.

Caveat Emperor
05-23-2007, 06:12 PM
Oh really so those 2 guys have enough time to go through and select members of who they want or not, type up a vague letter, and answer people's questions but not notify the excluded members of the ORG? That sounds like alot of horse manure to me. It is their site but why play favorites with members who were already chosen by fellow posters to post in the ORG?

Would you have honestly felt any different if the message in the "announcement" was e-mailed to you as opposed to popping up when you signed onto the forum for the first time? I imagine you'd still be upset about the changes regardless of how you were notified.

As to your second issue -- the short answer is that they can choose to do whatever they want since they own the site.

In addition I feel the need to also point out at this juncture that the rep system rewarded individual POSTS, not POSTERS. So, technically speaking, its incorrect to say a poster was chosen for ORG status under the old system -- rather, the old system merely had posts that were praised and enough of those (especially from the right, high rep power individuals) got one ORG access.

It sucks that some people got left out -- but I really believe everything will shake out the right way in the end. FWIW, everyone was really mad when the rep system went into place (and even madder when the "post restriction" was put into place for a few days prior to that), but it settled down and the status quo became quite acceptable for all involved.

Give it time before getting really mad.

Boss-Hog
05-23-2007, 07:08 PM
Uh, Yes I do and I will be a li ttle more specific.
1. Why is it that none of us were notified of these changes by you or any other of the moderators? That is not answered in that section nor are there any instructions telling us how to find out where we were placed by you. The only way I found out was by going to the ORG and getting an error page.

It was posted in the form of an announcement that is available the top of every single forum. I know that you obviously feel differently, but I don't feel it's the responsibility of GIK and I to send a personal message to roughly 200 users to say 'More detail will be provided shortly, but you will no longer be able to post in the Old Red Guard'. As someone mentioned, would that really have made it less unpleasant for you or does your current unhappiness really stem from the fact that you (admittedly) don't like the changes?


2. The official reasoning for this change was inflation of membership yet many members newer than myself were let into the ORG. It seems this inflation would affect many newer members that have joined the board and been nominated to the ORG.

I don't disagree with that, but registration time, while a criteria used only for separating otherwise similar quality/respectful posters, was one of the last criteria we used in making our decision in those situations.


I can't lie about the fact that I'm pretty upset not only about the move but the way it was presented to us. It really made me feel like I was not wanted on Redszone any more and I feel like I was hand-picked by you and other mods to leave.

You've made it pretty clear how you feel, so I doubt this will be much consolation, but if we truly wanted you, and others, gone, it'd have been very easy for us to do and I wouldn't be sitting here responding to your questions/concerns/criticisms right now.


This supposed "inflation" sounds like nothing more than an excuse to single out posters that were chosen by fellow peers to be worthy of posting at the next level. It really is ashame because I came on the board last night wanting to discuss the Reds and I can't fully do that because essentially you told me I couldn't.

You may have convinced yourself that's the truth, but as one of two people who ultimately made this decision, it's not.