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View Full Version : Reds vs. Nationals Game 2 Thoughts



reds44
05-22-2007, 10:09 PM
-Javy swung at ball 4 on the last pitch of the game.
-It was obvious Coutlangus was gassed, don't know why Jerry left him in.
-Pretty decent start from Saarloos all things considered.
-Stanton blew another lead.
-Griffey stays hot.
-Lopez owned the Reds tonight (6 RBIs).

It would have been nice to get some mo going, but not tonight.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2007, 10:10 PM
I saw a comment tonight that really burned me. Someone made a comment that Jon Coutlangus sucks. Well, coming into tonight Jon Coutlangus had retired 14 of the 15 inherited runners he has faced this year, which is good enough for second in the league. Not only does Jon Coutlangus not suck, but he is actually one of the better relievers in the league despite being a rookie. He has simply been overworked the last five days.

reds44
05-22-2007, 10:13 PM
I saw a comment tonight that really burned me. Someone made a comment that Jon Coutlangus sucks. Well, coming into tonight Jon Coutlangus had retired 14 of the 15 inherited runners he has faced this year, which is good enough for second in the league. Not only does Jon Coutlangus not suck, but he is actually one of the better relievers in the league despite being a rookie. He has simply been overworked the last five days.
Impossible to say if he is good or bad at this point, it's way too early in his career to tell that.

Coming into tonight, he had been the Reds best reliever next to Weathers. He certainly hasn't sucked, and I tonight was caused by fatigue more then anything.

We'll see how he responds to this tough outing. That's a part of being a reliever.

Reds Freak
05-22-2007, 10:17 PM
This game confirmed my belief that there is no way the Reds are consistent enough to put together a streak of games where they climb back to even .500. If it's not one thing it's the other with this team. If the hitting is good, the pitching is bad. If the pitching is good, the hitting is bad. And if both the hitting and the pitching are good they find some way to lose it anyway. You can't put together any type of run if you have that kind of inconsistency.

captainmorgan07
05-22-2007, 10:18 PM
i don't blame coutlangus i blame narron for running him out there when he has pitched in 4 of the last 6 games he needs time off but with that idiot stanton we have no other lefty that can get somebody out so coutlangus is our only option we need bray up here on the double and ship out sunshine boy stanton

UPRedsFan
05-22-2007, 10:20 PM
In all fairness, Narron's only option was to bring in Burton or Salmon which would have turned Lopez around to the left side where he's been stronger historically. And Coutlangus was not being hit hard at all. A groundball through the left side from Belliard and a pop up that Dunn should have been on instead of Freel trying to get there from right-center. It was not apparent Coutlangus was tired. He made one bad pitch.

But in hindsight Burton and Salmon both pitched well tonight. Maybe something was learned. Trust the rookies more. Don't trust Stanton with any more leads. Keep Milton on the DL and give Saarloos more starts. Edwin looks like a different hitter now. All is not lost, if Narron learned some things.

Screwball
05-22-2007, 10:22 PM
I'll tell you what really burns me is the fact that Narron absoluetly refuses to give the ball to Burton or Salmon in big situations. First it was Stanton (who gave up the lead), then Coffey (who did his best to let Washington have the lead), and then stuck with an obviously gassed Coutlangus before finally bringing either one of them in. At that point, the Reds were down 4 and almost assured of a loss to the freaking Nats. And what do you know, they promptly and easily retired the next 5 batters.

I've defended Narron in the past, but this really is indefensible. It's no wonder this bullpen is one of the worst in all of baseball. There's a little bit of talent, but none of it is put to good use.

And whatever Welsh and Thom are smoking need to let me try. Bailey for Cordero should not be considered, it should be laughed at. I about fell out of my seat when they were talking about that nonsense.

UPRedsFan
05-22-2007, 10:26 PM
I'm betting Narron is angry too. I'm betting we'll see Burton and Salmon in tighter situations now and Stanton in more mop up duty. Afterall it was the 6th inning tonight when they brought Stanton in. It looks like they've taken him and Coffey out of the 8th inning role now. That's a step in right direction.

reds44
05-22-2007, 10:34 PM
You can't overwork pitchers and expect not to get burned. It's something Narron hasn't learned, and won't learn. It's not like we have a rookie manager here who you can expect to get better. To quote Marty, he is what he is.

As for Salmon and Burton, you have to earn Narron's trust before he'll put you in big spots. Coutlangus has earned Narron's trust, therefor he was in today. I don't agree with him not using Burton and Salmon, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Dracodave
05-22-2007, 10:42 PM
I saw a comment tonight that really burned me. Someone made a comment that Jon Coutlangus sucks. Well, coming into tonight Jon Coutlangus had retired 14 of the 15 inherited runners he has faced this year, which is good enough for second in the league. Not only does Jon Coutlangus not suck, but he is actually one of the better relievers in the league despite being a rookie. He has simply been overworked the last five days.

Warning: Off Topic...
With no offense to FCB, because I do have respect. Wasn't that one of the big reason's we aren't allowed a GT?

Exit: Warning.

Yes, it's a shame Coutlangus finally had a bad game. Overall, I was pleased with Saarloos. Stanton blew it but it happens...alot. Perhaps when Bray gets healthy we can finally get over his inablity and give him a nice little DFA.

TexasRed
05-22-2007, 10:58 PM
I live in Texas but come up to Ohio to see family in the summer. We always make the trip to Cincy to see the Reds.... I am not so sure this year. I live for baseball and my Reds, but this is beyond shameful.

Fil3232
05-22-2007, 11:04 PM
I am so sick of Narron babying Salmon. The guy gave up a HR to Berkman and he can't sniff a close game anymore. What a waste of good relief arm. I'm really sick of the way Narron manages.

jimbo
05-22-2007, 11:10 PM
You can't overwork pitchers and expect not to get burned. It's something Narron hasn't learned, and won't learn. It's not like we have a rookie manager here who you can expect to get better. To quote Marty, he is what he is.

As for Salmon and Burton, you have to earn Narron's trust before he'll put you in big spots. Coutlangus has earned Narron's trust, therefor he was in today. I don't agree with him not using Burton and Salmon, but that's how it goes sometimes.

I've generally supported Narron for the most part this season, but I'm with you this time. You can't at all be upset with Couglangus with as much as he has been used this past week. In my opinion, he should have never been in there to begin with. Narron has two relievers in Salmon and Burton who have been throwing the ball good yet they only appear in mop-up roles or non-pressure situations. He keeps throwing Coffey out there in the same situations and he gets hit hard everytime. Both Salmon and Burton have what it takes and I think it's about time Narron get away from the idea of always having to use his personal favorites. Coffey and Stanton simply have not been effective enough to continue using them in the same ways.

And the idea that Couglangus "sucks" is just absurd. I saw that in the game thread and just had to shake my head.

reds44
05-22-2007, 11:21 PM
Postgame stuff from Fay.


Felipe 8, Reds 4

Felipe Lopez's grand slam against his old club had to sweet. But he said the Reds fact that it came against the Reds in Cincinnati didn't make it anymore special.

"It's just special to get a win," he said.

I don't believe that. This had to be extra special for Lopez.

The Reds still haven't won two in a row in the May.

The eighth inning continues to be the inning of horror for the Reds. They've given up 38 runs in the eighth over 46 games. Jon Coutlangus was Tuesday's victim. He had not allowed a run in his last eight appearances. He walked a batter, got an out, gave up two singles, then the Lopez slam.

Jerry Narron elected to stay with Coutlangus, a lefty, even though Lopez, a switch-hitter, was hitting .279 off lefties and .218 off righties this year. "When he was with us, we always thought of him as a better left-handed hitter," Narron said.

Stats bac that: Lopez came into the year hitting .246 off lefties and .285 off righties.

Anyway, the eighth continues to be a problem. The way Gary Majewski's throwing -- 1 1/3 perfect innings Tuesday with two Ks -- it might be time for him to join the mix. But it might wise to wait until the Nats are gone.

By the way, Kirk Saarloos was sick enough (flu) that the Reds sent him home. He pitched decently -- 5 1/3, six hits, three runs. He'll get another start, Narron.
EDIT: Wait a minute. If Lopez came into the year hitting .285 vs. righties and only .246 vs. lefties, wouldn't you bring a righty in to make him bat left handed? Instead Couter was in and he batted right handed.

Either Fay has his stats wrong, or Narron isn't paying attention.

REDblooded
05-22-2007, 11:21 PM
Coutlangous was obviously laboring, and was clearly having trouble locating his pitches....................not the first time Narron has left a weary RP in the game too long, and not the first time it was only the first or second RP he'd used in the game when it happened either......Narron is sorry, and not even Homer Bailey making a debut will bring me to the ballpark until he's gone.

jimbo
05-22-2007, 11:31 PM
EDIT: Wait a minute. If Lopez came into the year hitting .285 vs. righties and only .246 vs. lefties, wouldn't you bring a righty in to make him bat left handed? Instead Couter was in and he batted right handed.

Either Fay has his stats wrong, or Narron isn't paying attention.

I think you have it turned around. Lopez is hitting better against right-handers so you would prefer to move him to the right side by using a left-handed pitcher. My problem with the whole deal is that Coutlangus should have never been in there to begin with.

reds44
05-22-2007, 11:32 PM
I think you have it turned around. Lopez is hitting better against right-handers so you would prefer to move him to the right side by using a left-handed pitcher. My problem with the whole deal is that Coutlangus should have never been in there to begin with.
Oh, I got it now.

I was thinking he was hitting .285 right handed and .246 left handed. It's talking about the pitchers, not him.

Degenerate39
05-23-2007, 06:19 AM
Narron continues to constantly use relivers when they need a break.

Griffey is awesome.

So glad to see Edwin back.

Shouldn't have traded Felipe or Kearns. They have a chance to become "Reds Killers"

captainmorgan07
05-23-2007, 08:15 AM
Narron continues to constantly use relivers when they need a break.

Griffey is awesome.

So glad to see Edwin back.

Shouldn't have traded Felipe or Kearns. They have a chance to become "Reds Killers"

they would join and already prestigous group of major leaguers who are Reds Killers

boognish
05-23-2007, 10:29 AM
I am glad to see nobody is banging on Couter.

An observation from behind the plate last night: Freel broke back on Fick's broken-bat bloop into left center that another poster (don't remember whom) thought Dunn should have had.

Also, Alex Gonzalez is hitting .119/.180/.152 since May 8 (two weeks ago). If Narron pores over statistics and agonizes--no pun intended--over the lineup every day, he need to be able to find the information I found in 3 minutes and put Gonzalez in the 7th spot and keep him there. I also would have no objection to hitting him eighth but as we all know Narron must always bat the catcher eighth.

RichRed
05-23-2007, 11:23 AM
Also, Alex Gonzalez is hitting .119/.180/.152 since May 8 (two weeks ago). If Narron pores over statistics and agonizes--no pun intended--over the lineup every day, he need to be able to find the information I found in 3 minutes and put Gonzalez in the 7th spot and keep him there. I also would have no objection to hitting him eighth but as we all know Narron must always bat the catcher eighth.

This is the one thing that keeps sticking in my head ever since I read that Narron agonizes over stats and matchups when making out his lineup. How can that be the case? Either he's looking at the wrong numbers or he's looking at the right ones and ignoring or misinterpreting them.

I'd almost rather believe that Narron doesn't look at any statistics and goes strictly by gut feel and his lefty/righty/lefty fetish, because that's the only way his lineups make any kind of sense.

bucksfan2
05-23-2007, 11:31 AM
Last night's game was a prime example of why Narron isn't a good manager. He brings in Count to pitch and lets him, who at this point is basically a situational lefty, to load the bases and give up a grand slam. All this coupled with the fact that he had pitched 4 of the previous 5 nights. There has to be a point where Narron starts putting his players in the best position to win games. I am sorry in a tie ball game in the 8th inning there is no other manager in baseball who would let a pitcher load the bases and give up a grand slam. It just doesn't happen!!!

reds44
05-23-2007, 06:53 PM
Here is some carry over from last night from Trent's blog. It's Jerry talking about the pen.


Jerry was asked about the 8th inning, and if he was just trying to see if there was someone who would be able to take over that role.
"I keep trying everybody," he said.
Then he was asked if he thought about using Weathers in the 8th and someone else in the 9th.
"Believe me, I’ve thought about it. I’ve thought about using Weathers in the seventh, eighth and ninth."
He continued: "We haven’t really tried Salmon or Burton in that situation with a lead. We did pitch Salmon with a lead situation in the seventh against the Astros. They are two possibilities."

WMR
05-23-2007, 07:01 PM
Well Jerry, yanno, it might be time to try somebody ANYBODY!! besides Stanton.