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View Full Version : 5/26/07 vs Buccos game 2



Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 04:53 PM
Pirates
Bautista
Duffy
Sanchez
LaRoche
Bay
Nady
Paulino
Wilson
Chacon


Reds
Freel
Hatteberg
Griffey
Phillips
Dunn
Encarnacion
Gonzalez
Ross
Arroyo

Joseph
05-26-2007, 04:55 PM
Looks like a real winner.

Honestly, looks like about the best you can do with what is here and how they are hitting.

KronoRed
05-26-2007, 04:57 PM
I'd like to see Hat back in the leadoff spot, Freel is not getting it done

BuckWoody
05-26-2007, 05:22 PM
I scored some nice seats for tonight, 2nd row of the Moon deck. I'll try to bring us home a win...and maybe a Jr. HR ball. ;)

redsmetz
05-26-2007, 05:53 PM
Okay, that line up is capable of some good things. St. Jude, patron of Hopeless Causes, pray for us! And everybody cross your fingers, where your hats sideways and jump in a circle three times. Whatever it takes!

Puffy
05-26-2007, 06:09 PM
Dunn homers tonight. You heard it here first.

membengal
05-26-2007, 06:12 PM
Does he then sit on Sunday?

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 06:19 PM
Does he then sit on Sunday?

He sat yesterday......which was kind of odd, I thought maybe it meant "something" but I guess not...at least not at this point.

Joseph
05-26-2007, 06:21 PM
Dunn homers tonight. You heard it here first.

A real man predicts a win instead of just homers! ;)

membengal
05-26-2007, 06:26 PM
He sat yesterday......which was kind of odd, I thought maybe it meant "something" but I guess not...at least not at this point.

I know he did Matt. One day after homering off of a lefty. Hence my snarkish question...

guttle11
05-26-2007, 06:30 PM
I guarantee a win tonight. 8-3.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 06:41 PM
For the radio listeners...a bit different tonight...

Jeff Brantley and Joe Nuxhall...Marty taking the night off, and really, can you blame him? :)

Joseph
05-26-2007, 06:47 PM
For the radio listeners...a bit different tonight...

Jeff Brantley and Joe Nuxhall...Marty taking the night off, and really, can you blame him? :)

Suspended again eh? ;)

Gallen5862
05-26-2007, 06:50 PM
Lets go Reds. Get a win tonight.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 06:52 PM
Suspended again eh? ;)

That's what we call it in this business :)

Ltlabner
05-26-2007, 06:52 PM
Reporting in live from GABP. Actually Im just a dork with a new Motorolla Q phone with internet. Great night for baseball. Hopefully the Reds will remember to play some.

Ill try to check in durring the game, but this is a bit cumbersome. So far a pretty thin crowd. Narron currently in dougout staring blankley into space.

Gotta run.

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:12 PM
Bautista flies to Griffey to lead off the game

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:14 PM
Duffy walks

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:15 PM
Sanchez lines to center.. diving catch by Freel. 2 out

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 07:16 PM
Freel!

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:18 PM
LaRoche hit by a 2-2 pitch

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:19 PM
Bay lines a double to left, 1-0 Pirates

Big Klu
05-26-2007, 07:19 PM
When is the last time the Reds scored first?!

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:20 PM
Nady homers to left, 4-0 Pirates

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 07:20 PM
I weep

CTA513
05-26-2007, 07:21 PM
Arroyo can't blame anyone but himself for this inning.

Red in Chicago
05-26-2007, 07:21 PM
how many two out runs has this team given up?

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:22 PM
Paulino walks

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 07:22 PM
Arroyo looking about as craptastic as he did in his last outing

Big Klu
05-26-2007, 07:22 PM
I would say, "unbelievable", but unfortunately, it's all too believable.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 07:23 PM
26th batter Arroyo has walked this year.

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:23 PM
Wilson bloops a single to center

Big Klu
05-26-2007, 07:23 PM
The Pirates bat around in the first....

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 07:23 PM
Perhaps Dick Pole is not our savior

Red in Chicago
05-26-2007, 07:24 PM
perhaps bronson should sing a little less and concentrate on the art of pitching;)

Tornon
05-26-2007, 07:24 PM
Chacon grounds to Gonzalez, 4-0 Pirates mid 1

Marc D
05-26-2007, 07:25 PM
Is this Arroyo remembering who he is, a mini slump, or is he hurt?

Fun stuff.

membengal
05-26-2007, 07:27 PM
Or is it all the pitcher abuse points he has accumulated under Narron catching up with him?

pedro
05-26-2007, 07:27 PM
Talk about commitment. When this team sets it mind to something there's nothing they can't accomplish.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 07:27 PM
Just to note, Brantley mentions that Nady is a breaking ball hitter......who clubbed a breaking ball out of here.


Good scouting, as usual.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 07:27 PM
The Reds can tie the game up if they hit 4 solo homeruns.

Tony Cloninger
05-26-2007, 07:31 PM
Cyclone said....after his last start that the SD game could have hurt him.....I thought...at that time...let's wait another game before thinking that the rubber armed Bronson could be hurt...............Now hitting bad hitters like AL have nothing to do with being hurt....but he does seem off in command...which is sometimes a sign of a tired/hurt arm.

Hamilton hurry back.....Freel needs some time off....and not for Hopper so he and his .268 OBP can bat 1st.

I wish Welsh ( forget Grande....he is stuck on the good ship lollipop forever)
would state the obvious Narron faults in the batting order.....Freel should
be hitting 8th......Phillip[s should lead off.

I like Thom way better......beacuse of his bluntness.

RFS62
05-26-2007, 07:31 PM
We've achieved an impressive level of consistency

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 07:32 PM
We've achieved an impressive level of consistency

We've always said this teams biggest problem is that it's not consistant...

Now their biggest problem is that they are.

SirFelixCat
05-26-2007, 07:33 PM
We've achieved an impressive level of consistency


:laugh:









:cry:

Aronchis
05-26-2007, 07:33 PM
Welcome to my Nightmare

Stormy
05-26-2007, 07:34 PM
Is this Arroyo remembering who he is, a mini slump, or is he hurt?

Fun stuff.


Personally, from an outsiders perspective, I feel there are 3 dimensions to his struggle.

In no particular order: 1.) Falling in absolute love with overthrowing his offspeed stuff, which he is perpetually hanging up in the zone 2.) His increasing loss of control, and propensity to meltdown, following 3 consecutive outings of overuse, the last of which bordered upon an absolutely abusive 127 pitch outing - since that start we've witnessed issue #1, the propensity to catch too much of the plate (and stay too far up in the zone) with anything, and everything, offspeed. He's dropping his arm way too much/often, not sure if that's purely mechanical or if it's fatigue etc... 3.) He seems to utterly lack any focus or tenacity since the moment that he 'walked' in the winning run in that 127 pitch outing. No idea why, or if it's just perception, but he sure seems to be 'giving-in' to a ton of batters, without much hesitation.

All of that is superficial speculation, and maybe none of those are factors, but it's part of what I've witnessed in the past few starts. You worry a little about injury, because it's almost as if he can't stay on top of his pitches and keep them down in the zone. There's still crazy action on his pitches, but almost an uncontrolled action, that's just way too wild in the strikezone.

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 07:35 PM
Or is it all the pitcher abuse points he has accumulated under Narron catching up with him?

Hopefully this is just a hiccup, but I wasn't a big fan of his extension from the day he signed it.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 07:43 PM
Hopefully this is just a hiccup, but I wasn't a big fan of his extension from the day he signed it.


If I'm a GM I turn career years into trades for a player at his highest value while letting some other team enjoy the regression to the mean. I certainly don't make repeat career years the cornerstone of my future "plan".

But hey, what do any of us know.

BCubb2003
05-26-2007, 08:04 PM
Is this thing on?

RFS62
05-26-2007, 08:04 PM
Nice bunt

jojo
05-26-2007, 08:06 PM
Personally, from an outsiders perspective, I feel there are 3 dimensions to his struggle.

In no particular order: 1.) Falling in absolute love with overthrowing his offspeed stuff, which he is perpetually hanging up in the zone 2.) His increasing loss of control, and propensity to meltdown, following 3 consecutive outings of overuse, the last of which bordered upon an absolutely abusive 127 pitch outing - since that start we've witnessed issue #1, the propensity to catch too much of the plate (and stay too far up in the zone) with anything, and everything, offspeed. He's dropping his arm way too much/often, not sure if that's purely mechanical or if it's fatigue etc... 3.) He seems to utterly lack any focus or tenacity since the moment that he 'walked' in the winning run in that 127 pitch outing. No idea why, or if it's just perception, but he sure seems to be 'giving-in' to a ton of batters, without much hesitation.

All of that is superficial speculation, and maybe none of those are factors, but it's part of what I've witnessed in the past few starts. You worry a little about injury, because it's almost as if he can't stay on top of his pitches and keep them down in the zone. There's still crazy action on his pitches, but almost an uncontrolled action, that's just way too wild in the strikezone.

I guess I'm not the worried we're seeing anything meaningful.....basically arroyo has had a string of three bad innings (his 2 inning stint in his last outing and today's first inning)...

MrCinatit
05-26-2007, 08:11 PM
Just woke up.
One of the aces is on the mound, it is the bottom of the third, and we are behind by three. Same old, same old.

But, I see Griffey walked - would kind of like to see Dunn here instead of Phillips, but Brandon has been hitting well.

jojo
05-26-2007, 08:14 PM
what exactly could Colburn be saying to Chacon?

bases loaded.....flyball pitcher....flyball power hitter with the platoon advantage....I'm intriqued

maybe we'll see some cutters from Chacon...

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:16 PM
Take 'em however you can get 'em

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:16 PM
That was awful.

RFS62
05-26-2007, 08:17 PM
This team makes my head hurt.

Tony Cloninger
05-26-2007, 08:19 PM
Did EE revert to his April....swing at anything mode?

Works for Vlad and Yogi....maybe in the future it will work for EE.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 08:22 PM
Arroyos 4th walk of the night and its only the 4th inning.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:26 PM
blah.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 08:27 PM
Take Arroyo out and let Santos eat some innings.

TeamBoone
05-26-2007, 08:27 PM
Maybe Bronson wants to be traded... seriously.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:27 PM
more blah.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 08:28 PM
You don't have to leave him in the game.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 08:29 PM
6-1

Yeah Bob, lets just keep the status quo. Nothing fundamentally wrong with this team, its all just bad luck.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 08:30 PM
Arroyo should not pitch next inning.
Hes only pitched 4 innings and has already thrown over 90 pitches.

Aronchis
05-26-2007, 08:31 PM
So let me see, Arroyo has been as bad as Lohse the last 2 starts and makes Matt Belisle look like a stud. Only the Reds could have this complete rotation meltdown.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:32 PM
This team may never win again

CTA513
05-26-2007, 08:33 PM
This team may never win again

The Reds might have a chance tomorrow if they figured out how to hit left handers.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:35 PM
Moeller will pinch hit for Arroyo.

jojo
05-26-2007, 08:36 PM
On the bright side, there is no reason to believe the Pirates can run away and hide with walk-happy Chacon on the mound. On the downside, the Pirates pen is pretty good so chasing Chacon plays to a Pirates strength....

Marc D
05-26-2007, 08:36 PM
Chad Moeller to PH.

Is the bench really that bad?

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:36 PM
On the bright side, there is no reason to believe the Pirates can run away and hide with walk-happy Chacon on the mound. On the downside, the Pirates pen is pretty good so chasing Chacon plays to a Pirates strength....

Unfortunately, at the moment, the Reds have no strengths....ZERO.

BCubb2003
05-26-2007, 08:36 PM
This team may never win again

19 games away from the record, coming into tonight.

jojo
05-26-2007, 08:39 PM
Chad Moeller to PH.

Is the bench really that bad?

Moeller, Castro, Conine, Hopper, Valentin.... I'm thinking the bench isn't a strength...

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:42 PM
Now it gets interesting....bases loaded for the one and only...

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:45 PM
lovely

jojo
05-26-2007, 08:47 PM
posted this in another thread by accident...

this from the series preview thread started by Cyclone:

John Grabow (LH)
He’s an established major league reliever with the potential to be one of the better lefty relievers in the majors but still needs to hone his command so time will tell if he becomes more than a LOOGY (though he doesn’t have platoon splits per se). He features an excellent change while throwing in the low 90’s with an established “make ‘em” miss ability and groundball tendencies. The key against him is to work the count. Look for him to come into high leverage situations for the Pirates.


I'm impressed that Tracy recognizes the 4th inning could be a high leverage, game deciding situation.

Advantage Grabow in this matchup with Jr.... (hope I'm wrong)

Aronchis
05-26-2007, 08:47 PM
This game is a hoot. The Pirates keep on sending up these motley crue of hitters and pitchers then the Reds send out their "ace" and big sluggers but are getting taken to the woodshed. It can't get any lower......................except for a Eric Milton start;)

Marc D
05-26-2007, 08:53 PM
GG did at least manage to get a Jim Edmonds refrence in a few innings back.
3rd name off his lips for the all opponent team.

The night is complete.

jojo
05-26-2007, 08:57 PM
The Reds oly have three hits which seems anemic but they've also collected 6 walks so far so they're alive...we just haven;t seen the big hit yet...


Grabow vs Dunn...advantage Grabow with a chance for a double play... nope just got a K....

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 08:59 PM
That stint to AAA looked to do the trick for Edwin who still can't hit...



Sorry, I'm just frustrated.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 09:01 PM
That Gonzalez pop up single to right field is probably a double for Freel or Phillips.

jojo
05-26-2007, 09:02 PM
Bases juiced again.... he

Here's Conine...will we finally see the big hit?


Grabow vs Conine.... this is why Conine is on the roster...

Chip R
05-26-2007, 09:04 PM
Bases juiced again.... he

Grabow vs Conine.... this is why Conine is on the roster...


I thought he was on the roster cause he's over 40.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:05 PM
2 runs because of Pirate suckiness......awesome.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 09:05 PM
6-2 Pirates
The Reds only runs so far have come from bases loaded walks.

jojo
05-26-2007, 09:05 PM
Kudos for Narron there....

Joseph
05-26-2007, 09:05 PM
Conine hasn't gotten to first base that quickly since he was under 30. This team is pressing so hard, no one wants to be at the plate in these situations. Someone needs to step up.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:06 PM
wow....


They shouldn't get paid this month.

corkedbat
05-26-2007, 09:07 PM
Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!!

CTA513
05-26-2007, 09:07 PM
Bases loaded and the Reds don't get a hit.

:eek:

jojo
05-26-2007, 09:08 PM
Thru 5, the Reds have left 11 runners on.... still waiting for the big hit.... that's like trying to sprint in waist deep water....it's hard to win that way.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 09:08 PM
Stanton in to throw.

oneupper
05-26-2007, 09:09 PM
The girls are watching "The Lake House" and I'm actually thinking of joining them.

BCubb2003
05-26-2007, 09:09 PM
But the OBP is awesome.

pedro
05-26-2007, 09:10 PM
Wowzee wowzee woo woo

the Reds are schleprock right now.

http://www.topthat.net/webrock/images/schlep.jpg

pedro
05-26-2007, 09:10 PM
The girls are watching "The Lake House" and I'm actually thinking of joining them.

That sounds like a no win situation.

CTA513
05-26-2007, 09:11 PM
I wish Bray was healthy.

RFS62
05-26-2007, 09:11 PM
The Fighting Walkers

jojo
05-26-2007, 09:13 PM
Great shot of Narron and Dent talking in the dugout on FSN. I wonder if Narron was giving Dent advice on how many milligrams of Excedrin to use daily when he takes over the club....

Marc D
05-26-2007, 09:13 PM
Loaded the bases 3 straight innings and scored 2 runs from bases loaded walks.

Only these guys could do that.

oneupper
05-26-2007, 09:13 PM
The Fighting Walkers

They walk...they lose. They hack...they lose. :(

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:14 PM
If you have trouble sleeping, watch a Reds game

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:18 PM
Stanton continues to show his uselessness

MrCinatit
05-26-2007, 09:18 PM
How come the Pirates are allowed to get hits with runners in scoring position? I thought it was against the rules.

oneupper
05-26-2007, 09:20 PM
Stanton continues to show his uselessness

And his ERA goes down...:rolleyes:

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:21 PM
And his ERA goes down...:rolleyes:

That says how bad he is...

Aronchis
05-26-2007, 09:22 PM
Stanton building up his trade value;)

guttle11
05-26-2007, 09:22 PM
Lord help me, but I'm going to ask anyway...

What's the score?

RFS62
05-26-2007, 09:23 PM
7-2

Marc D
05-26-2007, 09:23 PM
7-2

RFS62
05-26-2007, 09:23 PM
Narron looks like someone just shot his dog.

guttle11
05-26-2007, 09:24 PM
Thanks. At least they're spreading around the runs tonight. Baby steps.

RFS62
05-26-2007, 09:24 PM
Speaking of dogs, that Edskin's dog really sucks.

Just sayin'

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:24 PM
Bob Davidson causing trouble again

membengal
05-26-2007, 09:25 PM
Narron looks like someone just shot his dog.

Is that how "winner's" look?

Aronchis
05-26-2007, 09:25 PM
The Pirates must be relieved. They can play their normal horrible style of baseball and still have easy wins. I bet all their players were all smiles coming to Cincy;)

jojo
05-26-2007, 09:26 PM
this also from cyclone's series preview thread:
(http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58453)
Damasco Marte (LH)
Marte is another solid, established lefty bullpen arm who struggles with command at times. He features a fastball and a slider in the low 90’s. He's a prototypical LOOGY who basically eats up lefties. But his high K/9 (9.63 for his career), acceptable K/BB (2.3 for his career) and good numbers against righties makes him a valuable bullpen arm in any high leverage situation. The Reds could use arms like this.

Advantage Marte vs any lefty in a Reds uni (though Griffey exposed his command struggles with a walk).... Heck advantage Marte against just about anyone in a Reds uni right now....

Marc D
05-26-2007, 09:28 PM
Dunn put it in play.

Hopefully Marty is smiling somewhere.

oneupper
05-26-2007, 09:42 PM
RIP Game Thread.

RFS62
05-26-2007, 09:43 PM
RIP Game Thread.


I think it was RIP season first.

Hard to get enthusiastic over a game thread when you get pounded every night.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 09:44 PM
RIP Game Thread.


All out of new ways to express the anguish

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:47 PM
Castro's turn

jojo
05-26-2007, 09:47 PM
This from cyclone series preview thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58453):

Matt Capps (RH)
Has excellent command with his change up being his best pitch complemented by an above average fastball (91-93 mph). He has decent “make ‘em” miss ability but an exceptional K/BB suggesting he should be a useful bullpen arm. He was rushed a bit to avoid the rule 5 draft so he might have some growing pains at the big dance.

Ross, Castro, Freel.....advantage Capps....

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 09:51 PM
32,380 tonight.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 09:58 PM
32,380 tonight.


That number has to start dropping I would think.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:00 PM
:jump:

oneupper
05-26-2007, 10:00 PM
:jump:
:hatteberg:

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:03 PM
Bottom of the 8th,
the Reds outs dwindle down,
despair so soon in May,
Playball! at GABP a hopeful sound.

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:06 PM
Phillips was overmatched and rewarded for it....

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 10:09 PM
RIP Game Thread.

It's tough to do a game thread on a Saturday night when this team is getting abused by the likes of Washington and Pitt.

By the way...just finished watching Employee of the Month. Not good. Had it's moments, but not good.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:12 PM
Laroche homers.

Stormy
05-26-2007, 10:12 PM
Dunn has 1 extra basehit in his past 53 plate appearances, and his OPS has dropped over 100 points in that span. For such a productive player, he's certainly feast or famine, with his propensity for drawing Walks the only thing sustaining him during prolongued droughts. He's just one of many whose struggles mirror the team's recent fall off the face of the earth.

It's hard to name a single unit on this team that is even modestly productive in any manner.

RFS62
05-26-2007, 10:13 PM
I think the entire team is in a mental funk. It's contagious. Cascading suckage throughout the roster.

I can't remember ever seeing it go so badly. it reminds me of a very bad round of golf that just won't end.

The more you press, the worse it gets.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:14 PM
This team needs a spark - badly

letsgojunior
05-26-2007, 10:14 PM
Glad I missed this game.

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 10:18 PM
I think the entire team is in a mental funk. It's contagious. Cascading suckage throughout the roster.

I can't remember ever seeing it go so badly. it reminds me of a very bad round of golf that just won't end.

The more you press, the worse it gets.

Losing is a disease...as contagious as polio.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 10:20 PM
How do we get so many guys to the MLB level in Cincy that think they can get by pumping fastball after fastball?

NO ONE has the kind of stuff you need to pull that off even a little bit.

9-3 bottom 9 if anyones still here.

MrCinatit
05-26-2007, 10:20 PM
Losing is a disease...as contagious as polio.

Watch it, or Roy will storm out of the clubhouse

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:21 PM
I think the entire team is in a mental funk. It's contagious. Cascading suckage throughout the roster.

I can't remember ever seeing it go so badly. it reminds me of a very bad round of golf that just won't end.

The more you press, the worse it gets.

Absolutely dead on assessment and probably the most compelling argument I've heard for letting Narron go. This is beyond anything he can do. The Reds need a bucket of ice cold water dumped on their heads and changing the manager is the easiest way at this point. As bad as May has been, theyre still only 10 out which is really still in anything can happen territory with 110 games left....

On a positive note, Chris Welsh has had a great night tonight.

pedro
05-26-2007, 10:21 PM
This team needs a spark - badly

It'll probably take a torch.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:21 PM
This unorganization needs to do something....immediately.

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:22 PM
Rogers in to pitch the 9th for the Bucs.... they aren't even trying now....

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 10:23 PM
This unorganization needs to do something....immediately.

Narron gets fired within the next week.

WK gets canned by the ASB.

Fire sale that makes the others look like roster tweaking.

That's my prediction.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:23 PM
:ede:

:jump:


A bit late, but still good to see.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 10:24 PM
Edwin kills the rally

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:24 PM
and EE gets healthy!!!!!!!

guttle11
05-26-2007, 10:24 PM
Lost in all the suckitude is the fact that Edwin is back.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 10:25 PM
Narron gets fired within the next week.

WK gets canned by the ASB.

Fire sale that makes the others look like roster tweaking.

That's my prediction.


I can't express how much I hope you are right.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:25 PM
Narron gets fired within the next week.

WK gets canned by the ASB.

Fire sale that makes the others look like roster tweaking.

That's my prediction.

I don't think Wayne is going anywhere.....GMs generally get a little more pull than the field manager.

Always Red
05-26-2007, 10:27 PM
Lost in all the suckitude is the fact that Edwin is back.

A healthy Edwin is a very good thing!

MrCinatit
05-26-2007, 10:27 PM
George Grande saying the team needs a party.
Welsh says they need a fight.

I agree more with Welsh. I believe they have done enough partying - I want them to act like they care.

Homer Gonzo.

Marc D
05-26-2007, 10:28 PM
If we just hadn't given up those last 5 runs....

Matt700wlw
05-26-2007, 10:28 PM
Ok, sure

:jump:

guttle11
05-26-2007, 10:28 PM
Matt, where's the jumpy things?

EDIT: Atta boy.

guttle11
05-26-2007, 10:29 PM
George Grande saying the team needs a party.


What the heck? Like,a pizza party?

Will they get participation trophies as well?

RFS62
05-26-2007, 10:29 PM
We've got them right where they want us

alloverjr
05-26-2007, 10:29 PM
I don't think Wayne is going anywhere.....GMs generally get a little more pull than the field manager.

And that's the shame of it all. While I think very little of Narron, he has very little to do with the disaster that is this roster. Of course, I'd like to see the double shot ala Jimbo/Boone at the same time - with a better plan to back that up of course.

oneupper
05-26-2007, 10:30 PM
lefty going tomorrow. Sit Freel and move Edwin up, please Jerry.

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:31 PM
Alright, the Pirates will start trying again....

this from cyclone's series preview thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58453)...


Salomon Torres (RH)-closer
Lacking the stamina to eat innings as a starter, Torres has found a home in the pen as one of the better set up men in the league although he's been converted to closer after the Pirates dealt Gonzalez to the Braves for LaRoche during the offseason. A power arm, he has above average stuff featuring a fastball in the mid 90’s and a nice slider. While he doesn’t strikeout as many guys as his stuff would suggest, he has extreme groundball tendencies. While he’s probably not the ideal closer, Torres nonetheless is established as a solid bullpen arm capable of handling high leverage situations. He too would look nice in a Reds uniform.

Ross, Valentin and Freel..... Ross out and advantage to Torres for the inning..

Aronchis
05-26-2007, 10:34 PM
The Reds get more garbage runs than about any other team.

guttle11
05-26-2007, 10:35 PM
At least we didn't drop to 0-10 when tied after 7 tonight...

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 10:40 PM
I don't think Wayne is going anywhere.....GMs generally get a little more pull than the field manager.

Each day Wayne is here is another day further from righting the ship.

jojo
05-26-2007, 10:47 PM
Each day Wayne is here is another day further from righting the ship.

I know the rally cry seems to be building for Krivsky's head but what really should he have done differently so far?

The bullpen sucks for sure but what arms did he pass on that he shouldn't have? Sure he played it safe and bought a bunch of veteran drivel but can you imagine the cry from the masses if the bullpen was performing like it has been with a bunch of young, unproven arms (the Reds haven't had much success with those in the small doses they've been tried either...)?

This is a devils advocate question not a snarky defense of Krivsky. I'm very interested in people's thoughts. what realistically should he have done that would've made a major impact on '07?

Marc D
05-26-2007, 10:55 PM
I know the rally cry seems to be building for Krivsky's head but what really should he have done differently so far?

The bullpen sucks for sure but what arms did he pass on that he shouldn't have? Sure he played it safe and bought a bunch of veteran drivel but can you imagine the cry from the masses if the bullpen was performing like it has been with a bunch of young, unproven arms (the Reds haven't had much success with those in the small doses they've been tried either...)?

This is a devils advocate question not a snarky defense of Krivsky. I'm very interested in people's thoughts. what realistically should he have done that would've made a major impact on '07?

The firesale that still needs to happen should have happened in early '06. Instead its was the SOS as the previous regime, hope for .500 with place holders and build through the draft.

You can't win now and rebuild at the same time. They went for the fools gold instead and here we are another year farther away from even starting the process.

guttle11
05-26-2007, 10:57 PM
JoJo, I think Wayne did what he could do, he just spent way too much money doing it.

The thing I will judge Wayne and Castellini on is how quickly they start the rebuilding process. Tomorrow is best, but if they start selling pieces with trade value off in July and have Homer, Votto, Dumatrait, McBeth, and the others up here and in starting/regular spots by August 1, then that's all I can ask for.

Obviously, guys like Stanton need to be gone yesterday, but guys like Hatteberg, Freel, and Conine could accrue some decent trade value at the deadline if a contender or two has the need for decent bench guys. I wouldn't advise putting them on the open market just yet.

flyer85
05-26-2007, 10:57 PM
back from the game. It was awful.

I wonder if something is wrong with Bronson, his velovity was down as he was 86-88 while the stadium gun had Chacon at 89-94

KronoRed
05-26-2007, 10:59 PM
I don't think Wayne is going anywhere.....GMs generally get a little more pull than the field manager.

Dan O got 2 years.

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 11:04 PM
I know the rally cry seems to be building for Krivsky's head but what really should he have done differently so far?

The bullpen sucks for sure but what arms did he pass on that he shouldn't have? Sure he played it safe and bought a bunch of veteran drivel but can you imagine the cry from the masses if the bullpen was performing like it has been with a bunch of young, unproven arms (the Reds haven't had much success with those in the small doses they've been tried either...)?

This is a devils advocate question not a snarky defense of Krivsky. I'm very interested in people's thoughts. what realistically should he have done that would've made a major impact on '07?

I've been extremely critical of most of Wayne's moves since the start of last season. The main thing I have said is that it appears that Wayne has no motive to his moves.

Which direction is this team headed in? If I had to guess, I think Wayne tried to win this season. You don't spend millions like he did on Stanton, Cormier, Gonzalez and Conine on stopgaps.

Now, when Krivsky backers hear someone be critical of Wayne, their first line of defense is "What could he have done differently?" Here's some thoughts:

1) Not sign Stanton.
2) Not trade for Conine.
3) Not resign Lohse.
4) Not resign Cormier last season.
5) Not sign Gonzalez.

Now...if you were to do one of those VORP calculations on these guys, I would assume that this quintet of uselessness would hover around break even. For millions of dollars. It's not the moves he should have made. It's the ones he shouldn't have.

He took a shot and crapped out. What's going to happen next season? More of the same? I know Todd Jones is a FA in 2008.

All I want WK to do is make a decision. Is he going to go for it? Then stop with the mediocrity. Is he not? Then save the money, bank it and wait until someone decent is available.

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 11:06 PM
back from the game. It was awful.

I wonder if something is wrong with Bronson, his velovity was down as he was 86-88 while the stadium gun had Chacon at 89-94

Awesome. So glad that a completely unnecessary contract extension took place way before it had to.

Big Klu
05-26-2007, 11:10 PM
A nine-page game thread. Sad.


No changes tonight.

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
6. Adam Dunn - 210
7. Eric Davis - 203
8. Barry Larkin - 198
9. Vada Pinson - 186
10. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 176
11. Wally Post - 172
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Lee May - 147
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

jojo
05-26-2007, 11:11 PM
The firesale that still needs to happen should have happened in early '06. Instead its was the SOS as the previous regime, hope for .500 with place holders and build through the draft.

You can't win now and rebuild at the same time. They went for the fools gold instead and here we are another year farther away from even starting the process.

Given the April they had in '06 and the season long weakness of their division, there was no way Krivsky could've had a *firesale* last season. It simply was not an option. Alot of the small 'throw mud at the wall and see what sticks" moves really happened because their April basically put Krivsky in a position between a rock and hard place. Having won the first battle, they were in a position to take the war but they didn't have the reserves/supplies to fight war. So Krivsky did what he had to i.e. pay the barbarians to join a loosely banded together conscription army.

"The Trade" was as much of a recognition of this as anything...Krivsky basically blew up the Reds with that one and he got pounded for it.

Kearns' righthanded bat would be nice this season but really, would the Reds be any better off with Lopez and Kearns in '07?

Marc D
05-26-2007, 11:22 PM
Given the April they had in '06 and the season long weakness of their division, there was no way Krivsky could've had a *firesale* last season. It simply was not an option. Alot of the small 'throw mud at the wall and see what sticks" moves really happened because their April basically put Krivsky in a position between a rock and hard place. Having won the first battle, they were in a position to take the war but they didn't have the reserves/supplies to fight war. So Krivsky did what he had to i.e. pay the barbarians to join a loosely banded together conscription army.

"The Trade" was as much of a recognition of this as anything...Krivsky basically blew up the Reds with that one and he got pounded for it.

Kearns' righthanded bat would be nice this season but really, would the Reds be any better off with Lopez and Kearns in '07?

Why not blow it up and start to rebuild before '06 started?

He showed us his intentions by trading WMP for a guy who at the time was Kirk Sarloos, a career swingman. A career year from BA has made it look like a masterstroke but the intention was to "compete" from day 1.

Again at the AS break last year, all the signs were there for anyone who cared to look. It was fools gold, this team wasn't legit. Instead they went for it and we got The Trade.

No we would not be any better with FeLo and AK in '07. They should have been traded along with everyone else of any value. My problem is with the fact they were given away. No outside forces made WK spit that particular bit.

I do not buy WK playing the part of well intentioned victim. He's brought this all on himself.

flyer85
05-26-2007, 11:28 PM
The joy of being a Reds fan.

I really don't think there is a light at the end of tunnel unless it is a train coming the other direction.

guttle11
05-26-2007, 11:31 PM
Why not blow it up and start to rebuild before '06 started?

He showed us his intentions by trading WMP for a guy who at the time was Kirk Sarloos, a career swingman. A career year from BA has made it look like a masterstroke but the intention was to "compete" from day 1.

Again at the AS break last year, all the signs were there for anyone who cared to look. It was fools gold, this team wasn't legit. Instead they went for it and we got The Trade.

No we would not be any better with FeLo and AK in '07. They should have been traded along with everyone else of any value. My problem is with the fact they were given away. No outside forces made WK spit that particular bit.

I do not buy WK playing the part of well intentioned victim. He's brought this all on himself.

I don't think you can start a firesale at the beginning of the season. It's just bad business. I have little doubt a rebuild was to have started last July. When they played well and were in contention for the first half of the season, they couldn't do it then, either. They did what they thought was right, and I agree with what they did.

The silver lining in this horrid run to open the season is that everyone knows the blowing up is needed. They can sell it to us fans, and I'm sure they'll offer more half-price specials/$1 hot dog nights to get fans in the park.

If July comes and goes without the changes taking place, then it's time to start assigning blame to the FO, imo. I really can't blame Cast and Wayne for what they've done on a macro level since they took over the team.

jojo
05-26-2007, 11:33 PM
I've been extremely critical of most of Wayne's moves since the start of last season. The main thing I have said is that it appears that Wayne has no motive to his moves.

Which direction is this team headed in? If I had to guess, I think Wayne tried to win this season. You don't spend millions like he did on Stanton, Cormier, Gonzalez and Conine on stopgaps.

Now, when Krivsky backers hear someone be critical of Wayne, their first line of defense is "What could he have done differently?" Here's some thoughts:

1) Not sign Stanton.
2) Not trade for Conine.
3) Not resign Lohse.
4) Not resign Cormier last season.
5) Not sign Gonzalez.

Now...if you were to do one of those VORP calculations on these guys, I would assume that this quintet of uselessness would hover around break even. For millions of dollars. It's not the moves he should have made. It's the ones he shouldn't have.

He took a shot and crapped out. What's going to happen next season? More of the same? I know Todd Jones is a FA in 2008.

All I want WK to do is make a decision. Is he going to go for it? Then stop with the mediocrity. Is he not? Then save the money, bank it and wait until someone decent is available.

Here's what a summary of the five projection systems suggested to expect:
Stanton: FIP=4.15; ERA= 4.33; (basically a league average reliever)
Lohse: FIP=4.75; ERA=4.84 (basically a league average starter. incidentally he's outperformed his FIP projection so far)
Courmier: FIP=4.83; ERA: 4.66 (we all knew he sucked)
Conine: .267/.327/.394 (not really that enlightened either but my preference-C. Wilson-looks like his career is over at this point)
Gonzo: .283/.339/.463 (Bill James and company saw something in his bat and it's difficult to not like his glove before he put on a Reds uni)

There are no fatal sins there even among the poorer decisions like Cormier... Basically Cormier wasn't the difference between 14 under and .500.

Krivsky has also tried to solve the bullpen by collecting younger arms that are more "make 'em" miss-i.e. coutlangus, Burton, Salmon, McBeth etc...

Anyway, I think asking what he could've done differently is not only a fair question it's answer is central to propoerly evaluating him.

edabbs44
05-26-2007, 11:42 PM
Here's what a summary of the five projection systems suggested to expect:
Stanton: FIP=4.15; ERA= 4.33; (basically a league average reliever)
Lohse: FIP=4.75; ERA=4.84 (basically a league average starter. incidentally he's outperformed his FIP projection so far)
Courmier: FIP=4.83; ERA: 4.66 (we all knew he sucked)
Conine: .267/.327/.394 (not really that enlightened either but my preference-C. Wilson-looks like his career is over at this point)
Gonzo: .283/.339/.463 (Bill James and company saw something in his bat and it's difficult to not like his glove before he put on a Reds uni)

There are no fatal sins there even among the poorer decisions like Cormier... Basically Cormier wasn't the difference between 14 under and .500.

Krivsky has also tried to solve the bullpen by collecting younger arms that are more "make 'em" miss-i.e. coutlangus, Burton, Salmon, McBeth etc...

Anyway, I think asking what he could've done differently is not only a fair question it's answer is central to propoerly evaluating him.

The problem is that he dropped millions on these guys and they have the worst record in baseball. They can't be any worse. That money could have been spent in the draft, intl scouting or just saved until someone good actually became available.

The end for me will be when they go cheap in the draft. I might have to be committed if they make picks like Schramek because they have more early picks than usual and a limited budget. I will FREAK.

Also, I'm not really sure what those stats are meant to show, but all I know is that those 5 have not had much positive impact on this team. Look at the money spent on these guys. It's ridiculous.

jojo
05-27-2007, 12:00 AM
Why not blow it up and start to rebuild before '06 started?

A hopeful fanbase is the oxygen of a mlb club. Castellini stimulated ticket sales by the hope that came with regime change....and then he was supposed to throw in the towel before the first pitch of the season?

That would've been absolute suicide and once April happened, the '06 die was cast which bled over for '07 and even greater expectations...



I do not buy WK playing the part of well intentioned victim. He's brought this all on himself.

I dont' think anyone thinks he's a victim. It's closer to the truth to suggest that Krivsky is something of an average GM that's learning on the job. He's now being punished in some ways for inheriting a lousy team and creating the facade of competitiveness by making several initial moves that dramatically improved the team (Hatteberg, Arroyo, Phillips) in an environment where average ended up being good enough to be world champions.

Finally to suggest he should've blown up the team begs the question that the return he could've gotten would have been consequential. What real chips could Krivsky have flipped in March of '06 that would've made today's reds team dramatically better?

jojo
05-27-2007, 12:02 AM
The problem is that he dropped millions on these guys and they have the worst record in baseball. They can't be any worse. That money could have been spent in the draft, intl scouting or just saved until someone good actually became available.

The end for me will be when they go cheap in the draft. I might have to be committed if they make picks like Schramek because they have more early picks than usual and a limited budget. I will FREAK.

Also, I'm not really sure what those stats are meant to show, but all I know is that those 5 have not had much positive impact on this team. Look at the money spent on these guys. It's ridiculous.

But you have to have SOMEBODY in the pen don't you? He didn't go the way I would've but then again, it wasn't my arse on the line either...

edabbs44
05-27-2007, 12:49 AM
But you have to have SOMEBODY in the pen don't you? He didn't go the way I would've but then again, it wasn't my arse on the line either...

Listen...I've been through this with many people. Here's the typical conversation:

Me: Wayne has put together an awful team.
WK fan: It's not his fault. Who else was out there who would have helped this team?
Me: (Starts naming FAs who would have been beneficial)
WK fan: Who's to say they would have signed here? Wayne did the best he could. Cincy isn't NY or LA where everyone wants to play. Yada yada yada.

I could start naming guys who could have helped this team but it wouldn't matter. There's always some excuse for Krivsky. Bottom line is he needs to answer for the disaster in GABP. They have the worst record in baseball and he actually tried to put a winning product on the field. He talked such a good game, and many of us bought into it.

They can get rid of Narron and they'll win like 6 of their following 9 because everyone will be all excited for the new manager and then they'll slip back into their comatose playing state. I can't wait.

Patrick Bateman
05-27-2007, 12:50 AM
Here's what a summary of the five projection systems suggested to expect:
Stanton: FIP=4.15; ERA= 4.33; (basically a league average reliever)
Lohse: FIP=4.75; ERA=4.84 (basically a league average starter. incidentally he's outperformed his FIP projection so far)
Courmier: FIP=4.83; ERA: 4.66 (we all knew he sucked)
Conine: .267/.327/.394 (not really that enlightened either but my preference-C. Wilson-looks like his career is over at this point)
Gonzo: .283/.339/.463 (Bill James and company saw something in his bat and it's difficult to not like his glove before he put on a Reds uni)

There are no fatal sins there even among the poorer decisions like Cormier... Basically Cormier wasn't the difference between 14 under and .500.

Krivsky has also tried to solve the bullpen by collecting younger arms that are more "make 'em" miss-i.e. coutlangus, Burton, Salmon, McBeth etc...

Anyway, I think asking what he could've done differently is not only a fair question it's answer is central to propoerly evaluating him.

That's a very good post Jojo.

I'm very wary of Krivsky and he has made some bad moves and has done a poor job of constructing the roster (adding Castro, Moeller, and Hopper to the roster), but it has become very clear that this team needed more than what was available in the FA market to fix the team.

There was no impact type of guy in the Reds' price range that would cure the woes, and some of his fill in type of moves have not worked as well as they could have, but there really wasn't a whole lot else he could do in that regard that would make much of a difference. Any of the fill in moves are not really the reason why this team is as bad as it is.

Simply put, the Reds were in no position to do a whole lot this year, and unless he pulled off some miracle moves then it wasn't going to happen.

One thing that frightens me is that the 2 things he focused on the most were defense and pitching, and those 2 things are amongst the worst in all of baseball.

What Krivsky needs to do is identify what his core players are going to be from this point on. If he's going to be a defense team, then Dunn and EE will probably be traded for different types of players, with Dunn going out before the deadline. Griffey is also a possibility assuming he wants out. He's the main attraction right now, but for the 1st time in a while he has some trade value and likely will not be a huge factor by the time the Reds are ready to contend. Krivsky needs to find the players that fit his agenda and will be main contributors in a couple of seasons. Whether his type of players actually lead to winning is another story. The fill in the gap types wont make a huge difference if Krivsky can identify the right players to build around, and that needs to be changed pronto, because it's not there yet.

I'm not ready to throw Krivsky out the door based on this season because it probably wasn't in the cards anyways. The core was not set for this season, and there was far too much missing to turn this team into a contender in one offseqason. I thought this current team was going to be far better, but even with some nice surprises the team is a total mess.

edabbs44
05-27-2007, 07:59 AM
That's a very good post Jojo.

I'm very wary of Krivsky and he has made some bad moves and has done a poor job of constructing the roster (adding Castro, Moeller, and Hopper to the roster), but it has become very clear that this team needed more than what was available in the FA market to fix the team.

There was no impact type of guy in the Reds' price range that would cure the woes, and some of his fill in type of moves have not worked as well as they could have, but there really wasn't a whole lot else he could do in that regard that would make much of a difference. Any of the fill in moves are not really the reason why this team is as bad as it is.

Simply put, the Reds were in no position to do a whole lot this year, and unless he pulled off some miracle moves then it wasn't going to happen.

One thing that frightens me is that the 2 things he focused on the most were defense and pitching, and those 2 things are amongst the worst in all of baseball.

What Krivsky needs to do is identify what his core players are going to be from this point on. If he's going to be a defense team, then Dunn and EE will probably be traded for different types of players, with Dunn going out before the deadline. Griffey is also a possibility assuming he wants out. He's the main attraction right now, but for the 1st time in a while he has some trade value and likely will not be a huge factor by the time the Reds are ready to contend. Krivsky needs to find the players that fit his agenda and will be main contributors in a couple of seasons. Whether his type of players actually lead to winning is another story. The fill in the gap types wont make a huge difference if Krivsky can identify the right players to build around, and that needs to be changed pronto, because it's not there yet.

I'm not ready to throw Krivsky out the door based on this season because it probably wasn't in the cards anyways. The core was not set for this season, and there was far too much missing to turn this team into a contender in one offseqason. I thought this current team was going to be far better, but even with some nice surprises the team is a total mess.

Thanks for making my case.

If it was true that there wasn't anyone within the Reds' price range to help them this season, then that would be fine. The only thing I would say is that if Krivsky truly believed that, then he didn't have to spend millions to make this team the laughingstock of baseball. He could have just saved Bob's money and added it to next year's FA budget. There was no need for Stanton, Conine, Moeller, Gonzalez, etc. But I'm not sure of your statement that there was no "impact" guy within Wayne's budget that could have helped this season. Will there ever be? Does "impact" mean Soriano or Carlos Lee? What is defined as "impact"? Hideki Okajima? Randy Wolf? Justin Speier? Those guys would look pretty good right now, no?

Bottom line is that Wayne needs to have a plan. I've been saying it for months. He seems to be like "Should I go for it? Should I start to rebuild? Mabe I'll sign some people, hope to be competitive and see what happens." That approach has cost them millions and has gotten them the worst record in baseball.

jojo
05-27-2007, 09:45 AM
Thanks for making my case.

If it was true that there wasn't anyone within the Reds' price range to help them this season, then that would be fine. The only thing I would say is that if Krivsky truly believed that, then he didn't have to spend millions to make this team the laughingstock of baseball. He could have just saved Bob's money and added it to next year's FA budget. There was no need for Stanton, Conine, Moeller, Gonzalez, etc. But I'm not sure of your statement that there was no "impact" guy within Wayne's budget that could have helped this season. Will there ever be? Does "impact" mean Soriano or Carlos Lee? What is defined as "impact"? Hideki Okajima? Randy Wolf? Justin Speier? Those guys would look pretty good right now, no?

Bottom line is that Wayne needs to have a plan. I've been saying it for months. He seems to be like "Should I go for it? Should I start to rebuild? Mabe I'll sign some people, hope to be competitive and see what happens." That approach has cost them millions and has gotten them the worst record in baseball.


While I wasn't a fly on the wall, I think we need to consider the actual parameters of Krivsky's job.

Generally major league FOs work like this: The boss basically sets a budget that includes a specific payroll figure (based upon a complicated set of parameters not all of which have to do with winning). Krivsky then has to put the best team on the field for the payroll level as possible. Krivsky might have had a mandate to increase payroll-rolling over payroll simply might not have been one of his options. Imagine the pickle created for the marketing department if Bob C is saying "we want to win now" and Krivsky is publicly arguing "the reds should play for '08 because we can't afford to make the team better this year". Krivsky had about $15M (give or take) and a list of holes to fill with little in the farm that was ready enough in their view. I think most redszoners would agree it was a long list. Rolling over payroll might have been the smartest personnel decision but it also might not have been a practical one for a FO struggling with it's oxygen levels (they finished 3 games out of first last season and had to slash ticket/hotdog prices just to get 17,000 fans to GABP during key games against the Padres last season).

Also, it's important to realize that payroll and scouting/the farm are likely different items in the budget and Krivsky probably doesn't have a ton of leverage in setting their levels. I'm sure there are zoners who can speak more intelligently about the specifics of how the Reds do these things and correct me if this is way off base. We have no idea if Krivsky did indeed lobby hard for more investment in the farm (or if the Reds did infact increase that budget significantly). It's not really fair to criticize Krivsky for things we really aren't privy to....

We know this-Krivsky can't shoot fireballs from his eyes or lightning out his arse... but then again Braveheart was largely good cinema and Phillips, Hamilton and Arroyo weren't bad attempts.

Patrick Bateman
05-27-2007, 09:55 AM
If it was true that there wasn't anyone within the Reds' price range to help them this season, then that would be fine. The only thing I would say is that if Krivsky truly believed that, then he didn't have to spend millions to make this team the laughingstock of baseball. He could have just saved Bob's money and added it to next year's FA budget. There was no need for Stanton, Conine, Moeller, Gonzalez, etc. But I'm not sure of your statement that there was no "impact" guy within Wayne's budget that could have helped this season. Will there ever be? Does "impact" mean Soriano or Carlos Lee? What is defined as "impact"? Hideki Okajima? Randy Wolf? Justin Speier? Those guys would look pretty good right now, no?

Bottom line is that Wayne needs to have a plan. I've been saying it for months. He seems to be like "Should I go for it? Should I start to rebuild? Mabe I'll sign some people, hope to be competitive and see what happens." That approach has cost them millions and has gotten them the worst record in baseball.

The Reds were not getting Soriano or Lee and quite frankly had no place to put him. Those are the types of guys that you need to turn a crap team to a good team. Fill in signings wont do that, and the Reds didn't have the money for much more. Krivsky failed at choosing the best fill the gaps guys available, but even if he did this team is still pretty mediocre.

Guys like Wolf and Speier are only upgrades that would represent some extra wins.

He probably could have saved some money, but my point is that if he had picked up a Bradford, Speier, Wolf, or Okijima, those guys would not help the team in the future, and would only provide mediocre upgrades in wins.

Krivsky did not do a good job this offseason, that much is clear. However, the best moves he could have made wouldn't make that huge a difference and I think that was Jojo's point. The team simply was not built to contend seriously.

edabbs44
05-27-2007, 10:37 AM
The Reds were not getting Soriano or Lee and quite frankly had no place to put him. Those are the types of guys that you need to turn a crap team to a good team. Fill in signings wont do that, and the Reds didn't have the money for much more. Krivsky failed at choosing the best fill the gaps guys available, but even if he did this team is still pretty mediocre.

Guys like Wolf and Speier are only upgrades that would represent some extra wins.

He probably could have saved some money, but my point is that if he had picked up a Bradford, Speier, Wolf, or Okijima, those guys would not help the team in the future, and would only provide mediocre upgrades in wins.

Krivsky did not do a good job this offseason, that much is clear. However, the best moves he could have made wouldn't make that huge a difference and I think that was Jojo's point. The team simply was not built to contend seriously.

I agree that it would have been tough for WK to make this team into a legit contender in '08. Probably impossible. But it was idiotic to spend the money he had on what he did. The guys I named didn't break the bank and, worst case scenario, could have been nice options to deal at the deadline. No one is going to want what the Reds are willing to trade. The signings didn't help in the present and won't help in the future.

Marc D
05-27-2007, 10:40 AM
A hopeful fanbase is the oxygen of a mlb club. Castellini stimulated ticket sales by the hope that came with regime change....and then he was supposed to throw in the towel before the first pitch of the season?

That would've been absolute suicide and once April happened, the '06 die was cast which bled over for '07 and even greater expectations...

There was no hope for a winner coming into '06. The only hope was that a new owner and new GM would get the franchise on the right track. Come out from day 1, blame it on the previous regime and say we know this sucks but its the only we we can build the long term winning ballclub Reds fans deserve. It would have worked, there was enough good will for the new and bad for the old.



Finally to suggest he should've blown up the team begs the question that the return he could've gotten would have been consequential. What real chips could Krivsky have flipped in March of '06 that would've made today's reds team dramatically better?

Off the top of my head he had WMP, Harang, Dunn, AK, FeLo and Jr. LaRue still had some value then as well iirc. Taking over when he did a new GM's priority should have been to clear the Milton and JR contracts while getting as much ML talent as possible for every MLB piece you could sell.

I'm not second guessing, I said it then and I stand by it now. This regime came in and had the goodwill from the public to immediately start the teardown and rebuild we so desperately needed. From day 1 their actions showed us they were going to try and win now but with a bottom 1/3 payroll. It doesn't take much intellect to know that won't work but that didn't stop them from trying it.

I think the best argument anyone can make for WK is what you said...he's MLB average, learning on the job and taking it on the chin right now. Funny how the team mirrors that.

jojo
05-27-2007, 01:01 PM
Off the top of my head he had WMP, Harang, Dunn, AK, FeLo and Jr. LaRue still had some value then as well iirc. Taking over when he did a new GM's priority should have been to clear the Milton and JR contracts while getting as much ML talent as possible for every MLB piece you could sell.


Milton was a lost cause in that regard. The FO has tried pretty hard to deal both Dunn and Jr. A deal couldn't be pulled off that was much better than giving away Jr's salary and the Dodgers reportedly wouldn't do a Dunn for Lowe deal straightup before WK came on board-Dunn's and Jr's '06 pretty much killed a big deal during the last offseason. WMP was flipped for Arroyo as we all know. The best AK and Felo could bet was two bupplen arms. They had to pay to make Larue go away (his contract was a bad one before he fell off a cliff last season).

Matt700wlw
05-27-2007, 01:38 PM
Hey! Outs!