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Redlegs
05-28-2007, 09:24 PM
I was in the front row of Monday's game just below the Pepsi Power Stacks. Freel's injury occured right in front of me and the group I was with. As Freel lay at the base of the wall, injured, Norris Hopper gets up comes over and slides the ball over in his Freel's glove. The ball had actually jarred free from the collision. Nobody could see it as it appeared Hopper was checking on Freel. The ump comes out seconds later, looks for the ball and finds it in Freel's glove, and rings up the hitter. It was great.

On another note, the exhaust fumes from the ambulance liked to choked us to death. Regardless of the terrible season, it's always fun to be at the ball park.
GO REDS!

captainmorgan07
05-28-2007, 09:32 PM
norris u sly little devil who would think to do that

Superdude
05-28-2007, 09:38 PM
That is so scrappy.

James B.
05-28-2007, 10:14 PM
When I read the title I thought that George Grand started this post.

Shaggy Sanchez
05-28-2007, 10:19 PM
I thought it was clear as day that he put the ball into Freel's glove. The more I rewound it and watched it the more noticeable it was.

Degenerate39
05-28-2007, 11:04 PM
When I read the title I thought that George Grand started this post.

LMAO

NorrisHopper30
05-28-2007, 11:13 PM
Yeah, i'm a sly little devil.

RedlegNation
05-28-2007, 11:21 PM
Someone in the game thread over at our site said they saw that on television, but no one else saw it. Guess this is confirmation. Very interesting.

Degenerate39
05-28-2007, 11:26 PM
I thought it was clear as day that he put the ball into Freel's glove. The more I rewound it and watched it the more noticeable it was.

I noticed it the first time I watched it on ESPN News

tbball10
05-29-2007, 02:24 AM
i noticed it too and laughed really hard.. it was a big play b/c it wouldve been an HR had he not

Ahhhorsepoo
05-29-2007, 01:44 PM
Sorry freel had the ball in his glove UNTIL he laid there.. through the 360 spin, and the landing it was in his glove.. in my opinion no matter what norris did, it was a catch..

redssouth
05-29-2007, 02:12 PM
Sorry freel had the ball in his glove UNTIL he laid there.. through the 360 spin, and the landing it was in his glove.. in my opinion no matter what norris did, it was a catch..

I just watched the replay again on ESPN, Hopper absolutely placed the ball back in his glove. If the Ump would have walked out and saw the ball on the ground, he would have been ruled safe. But dont let the facts stand in the way of you making your argument.

UC_Ken
05-29-2007, 02:18 PM
The rule is that a catch includes a voluntary release of the ball. It does not matter how long someone has the ball, just that they control and then release the ball. In this case of course he did not catch it because if he was indeed unconsious he involunarily released the ball.

scounts22
05-29-2007, 02:51 PM
I was at the game too in the front row in left center. From my angle it looked like Hopper caught the ball. Couldn't see any of that from where we were sitting.

Triples
05-29-2007, 04:29 PM
Call me a kill-joy but its also cheating. Not sure I'm ready to pat Norris on the back for it.


That is so scrappy.

jimbo
05-29-2007, 04:44 PM
Call me a kill-joy but its also cheating. Not sure I'm ready to pat Norris on the back for it.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it cheating, that's a real stretch IMO. To me it's no worse than a hitter who sticks his arm out into the path of a pitch or a catcher who tries to position his glove in order to trick the umpire into calling the pitch a strike. I couldn't imagine any player not doing the same exact thing if given the same situation........including the Pirates.

IrishDavidKY
05-29-2007, 05:16 PM
I didn't notice it yesterday, but when I saw it today on ESPN News it was obvious. Call it teamwork or cheating, but the ump called it an out. :redszone:

durl
05-29-2007, 05:23 PM
We saw Freel catch the ball, but how long does it have to stay in his glove to be an out?

Razor Shines
05-29-2007, 05:59 PM
We saw Freel catch the ball, but how long does it have to stay in his glove to be an out?



Originally posted by UC_Ken
The rule is that a catch includes a voluntary release of the ball. It does not matter how long someone has the ball, just that they control and then release the ball. In this case of course he did not catch it because if he was indeed unconsious he involunarily released the ball.

Just posted a couple of posts before you posted.

Triples
05-30-2007, 11:45 AM
True, except that the umpire may call the batter out if in his opinion the player intentionally tried to get hit. I'm not suggesting that Hopper should have pointed out to the ump that Freel dropped the ball. But stuffing the ball back into the glove a comotose player while bending over that player with ones back to the infield and thus blocking the umps view is not that same as leaning into a pitch...IMO.


I wouldn't go so far as to call it cheating, that's a real stretch IMO. To me it's no worse than a hitter who sticks his arm out into the path of a pitch or a catcher who tries to position his glove in order to trick the umpire into calling the pitch a strike. I couldn't imagine any player not doing the same exact thing if given the same situation........including the Pirates.

Jefferson24
05-30-2007, 12:17 PM
Ask yourself what Narron would have wanted Hopper to do. I think it's safe to assume he would want the out so what Norris did was consistant with being a good team player. I don't think of it as cheating.

It's the same as a catcher move a bad pitch back into the strike zone once it is caught and then frame it there for the umpire. It's also on the same level as players or managers agruing plays that they know they are wrong on. They still agrue even thuough the replay show the tag missed by a foot and a half. It's no different than that.

nate
05-30-2007, 12:19 PM
We also don't know if the ball was completely out of the glove or on the edge of coming out. If its just on the edge of coming out, that is, still "in" the glove, its perfectly legit for him to push it back in.

captainmorgan07
05-30-2007, 12:54 PM
i have seen the reverse view of the play and the ball is out of freel's glove and hopper sticks it back in they have been running it on fox sports pittsburgh

durl
05-30-2007, 01:22 PM
The rule is that a catch includes a voluntary release of the ball. It does not matter how long someone has the ball, just that they control and then release the ball. In this case of course he did not catch it because if he was indeed unconsious he involunarily released the ball.

I didn't understand the "voluntary release" clause. This prompted me to research instances of when this clause was evoked. Weird stuff, indeed.

It's funny that a teammate can take the ball out of the glove, but if a fan were to do it, it wouldn't be a catch.

Triples
05-30-2007, 03:05 PM
Sorry, but I don't seem those examples as being even closely the same. As far as what Narron would want him to do, I really don't know. I doubt he stands in the locker and ever tells the players to do whatever it takes to win a ball game. I can tell you this much, Narron isn't going to rat on Hopper even if he disagrees with the action. Regarding being a good team player...deliberately being deceitful is not usually an attribute associated with that term; at least not in my world. About framing a pitch, its done right in front of and in full view of the umpire; and ask any catcher if the umpire will bust his chops if he goes overboard with it. And, most managers will tell you that they argue a call fully knowing they will not win the arguement. Its often done to motivate his own team or to get an umpires attention that they are being one sided. Its not intended to pull a fast one on the ump.

There are a number of circumstance in baseball where a player could be blatantly honest, I'm not suggesting they be stupid. For example, bad calls by umps on close plays, trapped balls, etc. I'm not suggesting that to be honest one has to point out the umps mistakes. IMO I just see this situation as different. Everyone was distracted by the fact that Freel looked like he broke his neck and was obviously injured; Hopper's back was to the infield blocking the view of the ump and he used the used those circumstances to intentionally decieve the ump. I'm not suggesting that Norris ran over to Freel thinking about decieving the ump, I'm sure it happened in the heat of the moment and everything I've heard about Norris Hopper is that he is a great guy. Again, IMO integrity trumps one run in a baseball ball game every time.



Ask yourself what Narron would have wanted Hopper to do. I think it's safe to assume he would want the out so what Norris did was consistant with being a good team player. I don't think of it as cheating.

It's the same as a catcher move a bad pitch back into the strike zone once it is caught and then frame it there for the umpire. It's also on the same level as players or managers agruing plays that they know they are wrong on. They still agrue even thuough the replay show the tag missed by a foot and a half. It's no different than that.

jimbo
05-30-2007, 03:52 PM
True, except that the umpire may call the batter out if in his opinion the player intentionally tried to get hit. I'm not suggesting that Hopper should have pointed out to the ump that Freel dropped the ball. But stuffing the ball back into the glove a comotose player while bending over that player with ones back to the infield and thus blocking the umps view is not that same as leaning into a pitch...IMO.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I was just giving a few examples but there are plenty of others in every sport that I see as similar. How about a receiver in football who has trapped a throw on the ground but intentionally attempts to trick the referree into thinking he caught it? How about a defender in basketball who puts on an acting job by intentionally falling to the ground trying to trick the ref into calling a charging foul? They are all examples of deceit and are no different than what Hopper did, IMO.

Besides, it's a moot point because from what we see on the replay you never see the ball leaving Freel's glove so he maintained control long enough to call it a catch. The ball probably trickled out after he lost consciousness so all Hopper did was eliminate any doubt the umpire may have.

Triples
05-30-2007, 04:45 PM
Yes, we can agree to disagree..ahhhh isn't America wonderful :beerme:

and yes, I agree if the ball never left Freel's glove it is a moot point


Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I was just giving a few examples but there are plenty of others in every sport that I see as similar. How about a receiver in football who has trapped a throw on the ground but intentionally attempts to trick the referree into thinking he caught it? How about a defender in basketball who puts on an acting job by intentionally falling to the ground trying to trick the ref into calling a charging foul? They are all examples of deceit and are no different than what Hopper did, IMO.

Besides, this is all mute because from what we see on the replay you never see the ball leaving Freel's glove so he maintained control long enough to call it a catch. The ball probably trickled out after he lost consciousness so all Hopper did was eliminate any doubt the umpire may have.

Redlegs
05-30-2007, 08:07 PM
I was right there where it happened. The ball rolled out of Freel's glove by several inches. Hopper leaned over as if to check on Freel and scooted/rolled the ball back into the mitt. I thought it was great. "Cheating" occures in baseball. Stealing signs, scuffing baseballs, throwing spitters, etc. It's part of the game.

Redlegs
05-30-2007, 08:12 PM
I'll post pics when I get them downsized.

Hey Meat
05-30-2007, 10:53 PM
I saw him slide it back in there on the replay, but who cares, we needed a win .