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thorn
05-29-2007, 07:11 PM
Outside of Griffey being 4th, Reds are no where to be found in the voting. It's posted on MLB.COM.

Jefferson24
05-29-2007, 08:15 PM
Outside of Griffey being 4th, Reds are no where to be found in the voting. It's posted on MLB.COM.

Nor should they be. We are not fielding a team with anyone worth all star consideration. Maybe in a few years that will change.

cinredsfan2000
05-30-2007, 12:46 PM
What about Phillips ?:confused:

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 01:15 PM
Nor should they be. We are not fielding a team with anyone worth all star consideration. Maybe in a few years that will change.

Among NL outfielders Griffey and Dunn are 3rd and 4th in OPS. They both deserve to make the team. Although probably only Griffey will.


What about Phillips ?

There are quite a few NL 2nd Basemen having better seasons than Phillips.

HumnHilghtFreel
05-30-2007, 01:15 PM
What about Phillips ?:confused:

He's got guys named Utley and Uggla in his way. Even Jeff Kent and Orlando Hudson. Brandon has a ways to go, in my opinion, before he gets in the national limelight. The Reds putting together a winning season might help him there.

fisch11
05-30-2007, 02:03 PM
Brandon Phillips is right at the top of the league with 2nd basemen. Unfortunately, with the state of the Reds many fans will overlook him. He is at least deserving up a bench spot though.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 03:02 PM
Brandon Phillips is right at the top of the league with 2nd basemen. Unfortunately, with the state of the Reds many fans will overlook him. He is at least deserving up a bench spot though.

No he doesn't. He's having a fine season, but he's 7th in BA, 6th in RBI and 6th in OPS among NL 2nd basemen. He is tied for 1st in HR, but Utley and Kent deserve the 2nd base spots.

bounty37h
05-30-2007, 03:05 PM
Among NL outfielders Griffey and Dunn are 3rd and 4th in OPS. They both deserve to make the team. Although probably only Griffey will.



There are quite a few NL 2nd Basemen having better seasons than Phillips.

There are many outfielders ahving better seasons then Dunn also. Dunn deserves to be an All Star, but Phillips doesnt? I personally dont think either is an all star this year, but dont understand your reasoning that Dunn is an all star caliber palayer, off of one stat you posted.

eastkyred
05-30-2007, 03:07 PM
I think alot of people nationwide look at Cincy's offensive numbers like Colorado's are looked at because of GABP.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 03:24 PM
There are many outfielders ahving better seasons then Dunn also. Dunn deserves to be an All Star, but Phillips doesnt? I personally dont think either is an all star this year, but dont understand your reasoning that Dunn is an all star caliber palayer, off of one stat you posted.

He is leading all NL outfielders in HRs. He is 4th in OPS. There are probably only two 2nd basemen that will be chosen, but 6 or 7 OFers. I'd have to say that Dunn is one of the top 6 outfielders in the NL. Most likely only Jr. will make the team, but if I had to choose 6 outfielders based on what they've done so far this season, they would be:

Bonds
Beltran
Holliday
Lee
Jr.
Dunn

Dunn may do a lot of things that we may not like, but this year he has been one of the top 6 OFers in the National League. My guess is that if you replace Dunn with Rowand, that will be your All Star outfield for the NL.

eastkyred
05-30-2007, 03:28 PM
If you consider offense and defense, which you should, Dunn falls down the list of OF's and Phillips moves up the list of 2B.

Also, besides Utley, Phillips offense is right on par with any other NL 2B.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 03:37 PM
If you consider offense and defense, which you should, Dunn falls down the list of OF's and Phillips moves up the list of 2B.

Also, besides Utley, Phillips offense is right on par with any other NL 2B.

If you say so.

eastkyred
05-30-2007, 03:38 PM
If you say so.

great post.

eastkyred
05-30-2007, 03:40 PM
By the way Razor, I agree with your NL OF and I don't think Phillips will make the all-star team. I wouldn't be suprised if there is only 1 2B and 3 or 4 SS.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 03:46 PM
great post.

I've already posted my thoughts on Phillips pretty well. I disagree that he's on par with most other 2nd basemen besides Utley. He only gets on base 33% of the time. That's 10th of all NL 2bmen. A big part of offense is getting on base and 33% of the time isn't gonna cut it to be considered one of the top 2bmen in the league.

I do think that he has made great strides in becoming more patient at the plate, even in the last 5 games I've seen great improvement. And if he continues to improve then I think he will be one of the top offensive 2bmen in the NL, but he's not there yet.

And on Dunn: Even considering defense, if I had to pick 6 OFers in the NL based on their performance so far this season, he'd still be one of the 6.

HumnHilghtFreel
05-30-2007, 03:55 PM
I've already posted my thoughts on Phillips pretty well. I disagree that he's on par with most other 2nd basemen besides Utley. He only gets on base 33% of the time. That's 10th of all NL 2bmen. A big part of offense is getting on base and 33% of the time isn't gonna cut it to be considered one of the top 2bmen in the league.

I do think that he has made great strides in becoming more patient at the plate, even in the last 5 games I've seen great improvement. And if he continues to improve then I think he will be one of the top offensive 2bmen in the NL, but he's not there yet.

And on Dunn: Even considering defense, if I had to pick 6 OFers in the NL based on their performance so far this season, he'd still be one of the 6.

While this is all true, the main point I see that is missing is the fact that the AS game is, for the most part, nothing more than a popularity contest, which is evident when the game starts out as the New York Mets versus the New Boston Yank Sox.

eastkyred
05-30-2007, 03:56 PM
If you look at the major categories, OBP is where Phillips is the worst among the 2B that would be considered. He seems to run anywhere from 5th to 7th in most categories, but the people ahead of him in one, trail him in another. He's also tied for 1st in HR's, which you pointed out, and tied for 1st in SB. In both of these categories he's tied with different people. I also think he is one of the best defensive 2B in the NL. All that said, I don't think he will make the team because of the Reds record.

jimbo
05-30-2007, 04:11 PM
And on Dunn: Even considering defense, if I had to pick 6 OFers in the NL based on their performance so far this season, he'd still be one of the 6.

I think you are dead on about Dunn. If you look at the NL stats for outfielders it becomes pretty obvious IMO. You can even make a case for him being in the top 3 outfielders. Yahoo has him the second overall rated NL outfielder right behind Holliday. It continues to baffle me how so many Reds fans think Dunn is worthless. The proof lies within the stats.

My top 6 NL outfielders:

Matt Holliday.
Carlos Lee
Adam Dunn
Carlos Beltran
Ken Griffey Jr.
Barry Bonds (even though I can't stand the man)

You can make a case for:

Jason Bay
Eric Byrnes

bounty37h
05-30-2007, 05:09 PM
He is leading all NL outfielders in HRs. He is 4th in OPS. There are probably only two 2nd basemen that will be chosen, but 6 or 7 OFers. I'd have to say that Dunn is one of the top 6 outfielders in the NL. Most likely only Jr. will make the team, but if I had to choose 6 outfielders based on what they've done so far this season, they would be:

Bonds
Beltran
Holliday
Lee
Jr.
Dunn

Dunn may do a lot of things that we may not like, but this year he has been one of the top 6 OFers in the National League. My guess is that if you replace Dunn with Rowand, that will be your All Star outfield for the NL.

Outfielders still have to put a glove on and go play defense too, right? If so, Dunn is no All Star, no matter what stat ya wanna look at on offense. I also realize its more a popularity vote then a true all star game, so that takes effect in the final results, whatever they may be.

bounty37h
05-30-2007, 05:14 PM
I think you are dead on about Dunn. If you look at the NL stats for outfielders it becomes pretty obvious IMO. You can even make a case for him being in the top 3 outfielders. Yahoo has him the second overall rated NL outfielder right behind Holliday. It continues to baffle me how so many Reds fans think Dunn is worthless. The proof lies within the stats.

My top 6 NL outfielders:

Matt Holliday.
Carlos Lee
Adam Dunn
Carlos Beltran
Ken Griffey Jr.
Barry Bonds (even though I can't stand the man)

You can make a case for:

Jason Bay
Eric Byrnes

See, this may be the heart of the problem, is this an all star offensive team, or a true all star team? If you look at the player as a total package, which I feel it should be, that list changes dramatically. I think some people (not a jab at you or your post, just a general observation in baseball arguements) get so wrapped up in statistics, they forget to watch the game.

jimbo
05-30-2007, 05:32 PM
See, this may be the heart of the problem, is this an all star offensive team, or a true all star team? If you look at the player as a total package, which I feel it should be, that list changes dramatically. I think some people (not a jab at you or your post, just a general observation in baseball arguements) get so wrapped up in statistics, they forget to watch the game.

All-Star players are rarely selected because of their defensive capabilities, that's just the reality of it. If you consider defense, you probably have to take both Dunn and Lee off of that list, but fans don't watch the All-Star game to see defensive gems. They want offense.

bounty37h
05-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Pretty general statement there, although I see where your coming from, but need to change it to some fans; I prefer a good game, well rounded with baseball players making great defensive plays as well as hits, not simply relying on a dinger every at bat. I guess I will leave the long ball to you chicks :)

thorn
05-30-2007, 05:40 PM
I think the DH has made that a less of a priority for fans, who enjoy watching offense during the All-Star game. If playing bad defense is part of the criteria, then there should be no DH's in the all-star game, but it happens because fans want to see it, and so does MLB to be honest. Large baseball towns (NY, Stl, LA) will always be well represented because that is where the biggest fan base is. As far as whether they deserve to be there based on all their stats, I would say fine, but don't put more weight in one stat (HR) then others (Defense). To me you saying Dunn shouldn't be an all-star because of his defense and ignoring all the other parts of his game that says he does. Everyone has flaws, and depending on wheter your for or against him will determine how much emphasis you put on his flaws. To me he needs to be in, because it is an exibhition, not a MVP get together.

eastkyred
05-30-2007, 05:42 PM
Pretty general statement there, although I see where your coming from, but need to change it to some fans; I prefer a good game, well rounded with baseball players making great defensive plays as well as hits, not simply relying on a dinger every at bat. I guess I will leave the long ball to you chicks :)

I do as well. To me the best six outfielders in the NL do not include Dunn, if your watching the games. Dunn probably is one of the best fantasy outfielders for the first half of the season. The key is well rounded, in my opinion.

jimbo
05-30-2007, 05:44 PM
Pretty general statement there, although I see where your coming from, but need to change it to some fans; I prefer a good game, well rounded with baseball players making great defensive plays as well as hits, not simply relying on a dinger every at bat. I guess I will leave the long ball to you chicks :)

Ok, I should have put the word "most" in front of fans when saying that most fans want to see offense in an All-Star game.

For 162 games out of the year, I very much prefer watching a well-pitched defensive oriented game than a 10-9 home run contest. But for the one All-Star game a year, I guess you can count me in as one of those "chicks" that likes to see the best hitters in the game.

bounty37h
05-30-2007, 06:01 PM
I do see that part, but I would get more excited to see a great outfielder climb the wall at an all star game to rob Bonds then to watch him deposit another one in the river. Guess I am an old baseball dude in a young body :) hehe. To Thorns post, which I also get his point, I think it should be the most rounded ball player, not one who may dominate one facet of teh game, but stink at another. I like Dunn a ton, just bought a new jersey of his the other day, but I dont even think he is the best outfielder on our roster, let alone one of the tops in the NL.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 06:31 PM
Outfielders still have to put a glove on and go play defense too, right? If so, Dunn is no All Star, no matter what stat ya wanna look at on offense. I also realize its more a popularity vote then a true all star game, so that takes effect in the final results, whatever they may be.

Well the ORG's own Johnny Footstool sent me a PM pointing out something that I hadn't yet gotten around to mentioning, which is: Carlos Lee is a MUCH worse defender than Adam Dunn and Matt Holliday is at least as bad.

Another thing to consider is how poorly Dunn is used in the Reds lineup. Batting 5th or 6th he has no protection behind him, and therefore in important situations there is no reason for the other team to throw him decent pitches in the strike zone. I'd love to see the numbers Dunn could put up with an entire season of hitting 2nd with Jr. hitting behind him.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 06:34 PM
If you look at the major categories, OBP is where Phillips is the worst among the 2B that would be considered. He seems to run anywhere from 5th to 7th in most categories, but the people ahead of him in one, trail him in another. He's also tied for 1st in HR's, which you pointed out, and tied for 1st in SB. In both of these categories he's tied with different people. I also think he is one of the best defensive 2B in the NL. All that said, I don't think he will make the team because of the Reds record.

And OBP is one of the most important offensive stats. Getting on base is a HUGE part of offense.

As for the defense I agree, he is one of the best in the NL. That throw he made last night was amazing, I don't know many other 2nd basemen with an arm like that.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-30-2007, 06:54 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA DUNN ONE OF THE 6 BEST OUTFIELDERS?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHA GIVE ME A BREAK..

I wouldnt even put him in the top 5 OVERALL outfielders in the NL Central..

Griffey, Freel, Bay, I would take Hunter Pence over Dunn, I would even take Carlos Lee with his 10 Homers and a .310 BA and only 22k's, because defensively its almost a wash between Lee and Dunn..

And with names like Edmonds, and Soriano, there are plenty of names that just arent having a good year.. but based on this year alone I wouldnt even put him in the top 5 OVERALL outfielders in the NL Central..

Ahhhorsepoo
05-30-2007, 06:55 PM
Well the ORG's own Johnny Footstool sent me a PM pointing out something that I hadn't yet gotten around to mentioning, which is: Carlos Lee is a MUCH worse defender than Adam Dunn and Matt Holliday is at least as bad.

Another thing to consider is how poorly Dunn is used in the Reds lineup. Batting 5th or 6th he has no protection behind him, and therefore in important situations there is no reason for the other team to throw him decent pitches in the strike zone. I'd love to see the numbers Dunn could put up with an entire season of hitting 2nd with Jr. hitting behind him.

They throw bad pitches because they know 50% of the time he will swing and wiff..

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 07:08 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA DUNN ONE OF THE 6 BEST OUTFIELDERS?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHA GIVE ME A BREAK..

I wouldnt even put him in the top 5 OVERALL outfielders in the NL Central..

Griffey, Freel, Bay, I would take Hunter Pence over Dunn, I would even take Carlos Lee with his 10 Homers and a .310 BA and only 22k's, because defensively its almost a wash between Lee and Dunn..

And with names like Edmonds, and Soriano, there are plenty of names that just arent having a good year.. but based on this year alone I wouldnt even put him in the top 5 OVERALL outfielders in the NL Central..

You sold me. You're use of CAPS and an extreme amount of punctuation is enough to convince anyone. Nice job you changed my mind.

Razor Shines
05-30-2007, 07:13 PM
They throw bad pitches because they know 50% of the time he will swing and wiff..

Well yes I wish he was more patient in those situations, but he's probably pressing and trying to make something happen. And just to set the record straight it's not 50% of the time.

The times he's hit 2nd in the lineup he's produced great numbers. It's silly not to keep him there. But then you don't care for any logical argument, you hate Dunn and nothing will change your mind. So I guess it doesn't matter.

nate
05-30-2007, 07:38 PM
you hate Dunn and nothing will change your mind. So I guess it doesn't matter.

Think how much he'd hate Dunn if he played for an NL Central team and faced our pitching 10-15 times a year!

pahster
05-30-2007, 08:38 PM
I wouldnt even put him in the top 5 OVERALL outfielders in the NL Central..

Griffey, Freel, Bay, I would take Hunter Pence over Dunn, I would even take Carlos Lee with his 10 Homers and a .310 BA and only 22k's, because defensively its almost a wash between Lee and Dunn..


...you would rank Freel ahead of Dunn as an outfielder? You're talking about the Ryan Freel who is hitting .251/.313/.363/.676, right? As opposed to Dunn's .258/.364/.555/.919?

Park adjusted OPS+
Freel - 75
Dunn - 134

I'm not sure how you can justify ranking Freel infront of Dunn.

Griffey is having a slightly more productive year than Dunn so far, so no arguments there. Pence is too, but because of his lack of big league exposure, I want to see more from him before I'm convinced. He's been impressive, though.

Jason Bay is a better player than Adam Dunn. That's no insult to the latter. Bay is what I hoped Dunn would become.

Lee, on the other hand... He's been good, but not quite as good as Dunn. You cite his AVG and HRs as reasons, which is a bit odd, especially considering Dunn has more HRs than does Lee. Take a look at Lee's numbers - .310/.339/.533/.872 with a park adjusted OPS+ of 127. Despite having an AVG of about .050 less than Lee, Dunn is getting on base at a higher clip (2.5% more often). Dunn is also outslugging Lee by .022.

I don't really understand why you would take Lee's production thusfar over Dunn's. Is it because of the strikeouts? Dunn has 48 more Ks, but also three fewer GDPs while at the same time getting on base more often and hitting for more power.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-30-2007, 08:49 PM
...you would rank Freel ahead of Dunn as an outfielder? You're talking about the Ryan Freel who is hitting .251/.313/.363/.676, right? As opposed to Dunn's .258/.364/.555/.919?

Park adjusted OPS+
Freel - 75
Dunn - 134

I'm not sure how you can justify ranking Freel infront of Dunn.

Griffey is having a slightly more productive year than Dunn so far, so no arguments there. Pence is too, but because of his lack of big league exposure, I want to see more from him before I'm convinced. He's been impressive, though.

Jason Bay is a better player than Adam Dunn. That's no insult to the latter. Bay is what I hoped Dunn would become.

Lee, on the other hand... He's been good, but not quite as good as Dunn. You cite his AVG and HRs as reasons, which is a bit odd, especially considering Dunn has more HRs than does Lee. Take a look at Lee's numbers - .310/.339/.533/.872 with a park adjusted OPS+ of 127. Despite having an AVG of about .050 less than Lee, Dunn is getting on base at a higher clip (2.5% more often). Dunn is also outslugging Lee by .022.

I don't really understand why you would take Lee's production thusfar over Dunn's. Is it because of the strikeouts? Dunn has 48 more Ks, but also three fewer GDPs while at the same time getting on base more often and hitting for more power.

Freel can play defense.. that is half of the game.. for the record..

Lee also has 12 more RBI's..

Lee also has 1 Error compared to 3 Errors that Dunnhas, I can think of at least three other plays I would have given him "errors" on because of lack of hustle that allowed two people to get 2 bases when they should have gotten1.. and his seal flop that gave an extra base the other night.. where he threw the ball into center field.. I think his defense is slightly better than Dunn but just not too much to brag about..
And I would take Lee over Dunn because no matter what his numbers are, since they are inflated due to BB's.. the worst thing you could possibly do is strikeout..

UC_Ken
05-30-2007, 08:52 PM
Freel is scrappy.

pahster
05-30-2007, 09:04 PM
Freel can play defense.. that is half of the game.. for the record..

Lee also has 12 more RBI's..

Lee also has 1 Error compared to 3 Errors that Dunnhas, I can think of at least three other plays I would have given him "errors" on because of lack of hustle that allowed two people to get 2 bases when they should have gotten1.. and his seal flop that gave an extra base the other night.. where he threw the ball into center field.. I think his defense is slightly better than Dunn but just not too much to brag about..
And I would take Lee over Dunn because no matter what his numbers are, since they are inflated due to BB's.. the worst thing you could possibly do is strikeout..

"Inflated due to walks?" Seriously? Then I guess Lee's numbers are deflated due to lack of walks. You know, because he doesn't walk very much, leading to him being unable to reach base as much as Dunn.

Dunn is a bad OF. I'm not arguing that. But so is Lee, who is equally poor if not worse. Dunn actually has two more put outs than does Lee in 32 fewer defensive innings. I'm not convinced these data actually mean anything, though. It'll be interesting to see where Dunn and Lee are on the various defensive scales that don't suck as much (at least in my view) as many others by the end of the year (Dewan, Dile, etc). Dunn's two more errors than Lee? Meh. I don't like errors as a metric. Too subjective.

RBI aren't important as an individual metric, either. They're based primarily on opportunity. RBI tells me more about where a player hits in a lineup and how often his teammates get on base infront of him than it does about his skill.

As for Freel, essentially no ammount of defense makes up for a .676 OPS in this era. Not unless said player is Spiderman or something.