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View Full Version : Does anyone honestly believe that Adam Dunn will be a Red come August 1st?



pokeyfan
06-03-2007, 11:15 PM
I love the guy one day, and hate him the next....but i honestly don't see him being in a Reds uniform come August first. I say with his terrible prowess in the field, that he would be more suitable to trade to an AL team where he can be used exclusively as a DH. I think Boston, Detroit, NY Yanks, White Sox, Mariners, or Angels could be suitors for him. Could anyone imagine seeing him hit a flyball to RF in Fenway. He could hit 60 homers there. I think the Red Sox need his power less than other teams though. Any thoughts on where he might end up before the Votto experiment begins in LF on August 1st? Also, any thoughts on what you would like to get in return (positions, not names)?

HokieRed
06-03-2007, 11:17 PM
I still think his contract is a major obstacle. If you think that list represents the group who might consider him, we should start to think about who he might bring--I'd start by asking what catching prospects any of those clubs have.

reds44
06-03-2007, 11:18 PM
I think the odds are better he's not here then he is.

ChatterRed
06-03-2007, 11:18 PM
I don't think he'll be here. And if management is smart, they'll trade him.

Betterread
06-03-2007, 11:36 PM
I believe he will stay in Cin. And I would have to see what is being offered for him, but I doubt the premise that he is worth more as a tradeable asset than as a Red player.

BearcatShane
06-04-2007, 01:25 AM
I'd trade him just to have the 13 million that he is owed next season to play with in the offseason. If we trade him were probably not going to get a whole lot for him because it's kind of like a rent a player, If he's traded that 13 million dollar option goes away making him a free agent at years end. If we could get anything near what the Brewers got for Carlos Lee that would be great.

sonny
06-04-2007, 04:56 AM
I'd trade him just to have the 13 million that he is owed next season to play with in the offseason. If we trade him were probably not going to get a whole lot for him because it's kind of like a rent a player, If he's traded that 13 million dollar option goes away making him a free agent at years end. If we could get anything near what the Brewers got for Carlos Lee that would be great.

Yep. As the trading deadline looms, more and more teams will get desperate. I like Adam as a player, but I maintain that his value will never be higher than it is this year. I just hop that the FO won't hold him hostage to pull off too big of a deal.

UK Reds Fan
06-04-2007, 05:44 AM
As Adam has basically not grown his game the past few years...he is not going to do anything but decline and if he stays the same...Adam is still an asset, but with his terrible defense (which can't be argued in any statistic) is he worth 13 million?

Secondly, we are a totally LH batting club today and in the future. Griffey, Votto, Bruce, Hamiliton, etc.. are all LH. Only Phillips and EE give us RH balance.

I think the stars align that if we can get a solid pick-up, we move Dunn and play with that money in the off-season. Now the part that scares me is Krivsky is the one doing the playing.

Natty Redlocks
06-04-2007, 06:19 AM
I think they'll trade him for the best pitcher they can get. And man, are people around here gonna be pissed.

Strikes Out Looking
06-04-2007, 08:12 AM
He's very similar to Ralph Kiner. We can be in last place with him or without him. I'm guessing he's gone.

bucksfan2
06-04-2007, 08:39 AM
Dunn's contract is really going to hinder the deal. They are going to need an every day player, and atleast good prospect in return for Dunn. I would almost like a package deal of Dunn and Phillips to Boston for Crisp, boston's 2b, and 2 good prospects. You would be giving up a lot but this organization needs change. The problem I forsee is that if you trade Dunn you need to trade Jr. to atleast give him a shot at the playoffs.

hebroncougar
06-04-2007, 10:54 AM
Dunn's contract is really going to hinder the deal. They are going to need an every day player, and atleast good prospect in return for Dunn. I would almost like a package deal of Dunn and Phillips to Boston for Crisp, boston's 2b, and 2 good prospects. You would be giving up a lot but this organization needs change. The problem I forsee is that if you trade Dunn you need to trade Jr. to atleast give him a shot at the playoffs.

Dunn has NO shot at going to Boston. Ortiz is probably the most firmly entrenched DH in history, with Youk at first, and Manny in LF, not gonna happen. Pedroia has fast become a cult hero and is firmly entrenched at 2b as well.

ochoa30
06-04-2007, 11:10 AM
Dunn's contract is really going to hinder the deal. They are going to need an every day player, and atleast good prospect in return for Dunn. I would almost like a package deal of Dunn and Phillips to Boston for Crisp, boston's 2b, and 2 good prospects. You would be giving up a lot but this organization needs change. The problem I forsee is that if you trade Dunn you need to trade Jr. to atleast give him a shot at the playoffs.

No way does one of the only passionate players we have get traded. I understand what your saying but phillips is a building block that we MUST keep.

durl
06-04-2007, 11:19 AM
I would like for Dunn to work out as a Red but I can see the organization moving him for many of the reasons already stated.

fearofpopvol1
06-04-2007, 11:53 AM
If the Reds were smart, they would try to lock Dunn up for another year or two at the cheapest price they can without these ridiculous trade clauses and THEN trade him so this whole contract issue is irrelevant and his value increases.

redsfan
06-04-2007, 12:01 PM
Dunn's contract is really going to hinder the deal. They are going to need an every day player, and atleast good prospect in return for Dunn. I would almost like a package deal of Dunn and Phillips to Boston for Crisp, boston's 2b, and 2 good prospects. You would be giving up a lot but this organization needs change. The problem I forsee is that if you trade Dunn you need to trade Jr. to atleast give him a shot at the playoffs.

No way do they trade Phillips. Good hitting 2B are hard enough to find.

I also don't see them going after Crisp. They already have enough speedy OF with no power.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2007, 12:22 PM
I know it was just one day yesterday, but did anyone else think about what a difference having a legit, reliable glove in LF can make in a game?

I *want* to like Dunn and see him hit 500 foot jacks for the Redlegs the rest of his career. But I don't think it's best for the club. Not this year and certainly not next, which is what we should be looking at.

Could we get a good starter prospect OR catcher prospect, and a couple of relievers who are better than what we currently have (which is to say, league average)?

You've helped the player development system, you've helped the club this year improve its most glaring weakness (bullpen) so it doesn't look like a fire sale AND you've given yourself financial flexibility in the offseason to go get what we need.

Again, small sample size, but I would not mind a Freel-Hamilton-Junior outfield with Hopper as your backup when an injury arises. Or maybe you take that $13 mill Dunn was owed, and you use some for the bullpen next year and some for a solid RH outfielder, and keep Freel as super-util and make Hopper the fifth OF.

Either way, I would not be upset if Dunn were traded. I got no love.

pokeyfan
06-04-2007, 12:27 PM
I know it was just one day yesterday, but did anyone else think about what a difference having a legit, reliable glove in LF can make in a game?

I *want* to like Dunn and see him hit 500 foot jacks for the Redlegs the rest of his career. But I don't think it's best for the club. Not this year and certainly not next, which is what we should be looking at.

Could we get a good starter prospect OR catcher prospect, and a couple of relievers who are better than what we currently have (which is to say, league average)?

You've helped the player development system, you've helped the club this year improve its most glaring weakness (bullpen) so it doesn't look like a fire sale AND you've given yourself financial flexibility in the offseason to go get what we need.

Again, small sample size, but I would not mind a Freel-Hamilton-Junior outfield with Hopper as your backup when an injury arises. Or maybe you take that $13 mill Dunn was owed, and you use some for the bullpen next year and some for a solid RH outfielder, and keep Freel as super-util and make Hopper the fifth OF.

Either way, I would not be upset if Dunn were traded. I got no love.

Exactly my sentiments. For the money we are paying Dunn, we are not getting any fielding help from him, and alot of his HR's are of the solo variety, or of the "don't make a difference" variety. I would like to have someone who can drive in runners from 2nd base on a consistent basis. It would more than make up for his 500 foot homers and his lack of fielding.

kbrake
06-04-2007, 02:39 PM
Exactly my sentiments. For the money we are paying Dunn, we are not getting any fielding help from him, and alot of his HR's are of the solo variety, or of the "don't make a difference" variety. I would like to have someone who can drive in runners from 2nd base on a consistent basis. It would more than make up for his 500 foot homers and his lack of fielding.

The guy accounts for nearly 25% of the teams offense. You can bring up points like "all his HR's are solo shots" and "he only goes deep when it is a blowout" but both those points are myths and its been proven a 1000 times on here. Does he have a great glove? No. Does he more than make up for it at the plate? Yep.

I dont care if you move him to the Twins for Santana and Nathan, you better find a way to replace some of his offense. And sorry I know the Josh Hamilton story is a great one but call me crazy I'm not sold on him to replace a guy like Adam Dunn after only a month of playing at the Major League level.

A guy that plays everyday and puts up Dunn's production should get a little more love from the fans. The last couple days he played even though he was very sick the guy wants to be out there everyday. I dont care what Marty says Dunn plays hard and plays through pain. The guy played 3/4 of a season with a broken hand and never said a word.

It would be a huge loss to this franchise to trade Adam Dunn. It would be near impossible for the Reds to trade Adam Dunn and come away from it a better team.

berryluther
06-04-2007, 02:39 PM
If the Reds were smart, they would try to lock Dunn up for another year or two at the cheapest price they can without these ridiculous trade clauses and THEN trade him so this whole contract issue is irrelevant and his value increases.

I don't think that this is allowed under the collective bargining agreement. If a player signs an extension and is then traded I believe the extension is void. Unless the player agrees to it. Which he wouldnt because it eliminates any leverage he might have.

fearofpopvol1
06-04-2007, 02:50 PM
I don't think that this is allowed under the collective bargining agreement. If a player signs an extension and is then traded I believe the extension is void. Unless the player agrees to it. Which he wouldnt because it eliminates any leverage he might have.

Are you sure about that? Bronson Arroyo was almost in the same situation before coming over here from Boston albeit it his extension I believe was signed during the offseason.

bucksfan2
06-04-2007, 03:30 PM
The guy accounts for nearly 25% of the teams offense. You can bring up points like "all his HR's are solo shots" and "he only goes deep when it is a blowout" but both those points are myths and its been proven a 1000 times on here. Does he have a great glove? No. Does he more than make up for it at the plate? Yep.

I dont care if you move him to the Twins for Santana and Nathan, you better find a way to replace some of his offense. And sorry I know the Josh Hamilton story is a great one but call me crazy I'm not sold on him to replace a guy like Adam Dunn after only a month of playing at the Major League level.

A guy that plays everyday and puts up Dunn's production should get a little more love from the fans. The last couple days he played even though he was very sick the guy wants to be out there everyday. I dont care what Marty says Dunn plays hard and plays through pain. The guy played 3/4 of a season with a broken hand and never said a word.

It would be a huge loss to this franchise to trade Adam Dunn. It would be near impossible for the Reds to trade Adam Dunn and come away from it a better team.

I couldn't have said it better. Great post. A few weeks ago I read a baseball columnist who said that the Cincinnati fans would be more upset if Freel got traded and not Dunn. It is absolutly shocking that people drool over a player like Freel but are ready to cast off one of their most productive players.

TheWalls
06-04-2007, 04:19 PM
Not a chance. He goes to an AL team by the deadline.

Get used to an outfield of Hamilton, Freel/Hopper, and Junior for the duration.

Screwball
06-04-2007, 05:03 PM
The guy accounts for nearly 25% of the teams offense. You can bring up points like "all his HR's are solo shots" and "he only goes deep when it is a blowout" but both those points are myths and its been proven a 1000 times on here. Does he have a great glove? No. Does he more than make up for it at the plate? Yep.

I dont care if you move him to the Twins for Santana and Nathan, you better find a way to replace some of his offense. And sorry I know the Josh Hamilton story is a great one but call me crazy I'm not sold on him to replace a guy like Adam Dunn after only a month of playing at the Major League level.

A guy that plays everyday and puts up Dunn's production should get a little more love from the fans. The last couple days he played even though he was very sick the guy wants to be out there everyday. I dont care what Marty says Dunn plays hard and plays through pain. The guy played 3/4 of a season with a broken hand and never said a word.

It would be a huge loss to this franchise to trade Adam Dunn. It would be near impossible for the Reds to trade Adam Dunn and come away from it a better team.

Exactly. The inability for the majority of Reds fans to recognize the tremendous value Dunn brings to a line-up constantly has me shaking my head. All the guy does is lead the Reds in runs scored, RBIs, Home Runs, walks, runs created, and OPS every single year, yet is hammered relentlessly on message boards and talk radio alike. I guess it'll take him being gone for people to realize how much production Dunn actually brings to the club.

mound_patrol
06-04-2007, 05:50 PM
The guy accounts for nearly 25% of the teams offense. You can bring up points like "all his HR's are solo shots" and "he only goes deep when it is a blowout" but both those points are myths and its been proven a 1000 times on here. Does he have a great glove? No. Does he more than make up for it at the plate? Yep.

I dont care if you move him to the Twins for Santana and Nathan, you better find a way to replace some of his offense. And sorry I know the Josh Hamilton story is a great one but call me crazy I'm not sold on him to replace a guy like Adam Dunn after only a month of playing at the Major League level.

A guy that plays everyday and puts up Dunn's production should get a little more love from the fans. The last couple days he played even though he was very sick the guy wants to be out there everyday. I dont care what Marty says Dunn plays hard and plays through pain. The guy played 3/4 of a season with a broken hand and never said a word.

It would be a huge loss to this franchise to trade Adam Dunn. It would be near impossible for the Reds to trade Adam Dunn and come away from it a better team.

:clap:

all of what he said and the fact that his contract would make it hard to get much talent. Plus it would be Krivsky pulling the trigger. I'd rather take our chances of Krivsky trying to sign Dunn long term.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2007, 06:12 PM
I know it was only one game, but I thought yesterday was an example of how the Reds CAN function without Adam Dunn. I recognize his talent and what he brings to the table. The dude gets on base. I love that. I covet that. But can we afford to pay $13 mill for that with a crummy glove, and expect not to suffer elsewhere (i.e. bullpen)?

If Edwin and Brandon play like they're capable (and more consistently) and even if Hamilton has adjustment periods, I say we can live without Dunn. Who scores the runs during those innings Adam doesn't hit? Who bats them in?

I'm sorry but maybe the league average left fielder could take up some slack when Adam is gone, add some better defense AND allow for some of Adam's money to be spent on better pitching.

I'm thinking about someone who gives half the production at a third of the cost. Because has Adam's bat (and salary) helped so far? No. So adjust the payroll to what we need.

OR... there is that possibility that Hamilton, being a first pick talent, might actually give us half (or more) of Adam's production for literally 1/26 of his cost!

For those who salivate over Dunn's OPS, wouldn't you more want a competent bullpen with an average left fielder than Dunn and what we got? Wouldn't that make the Reds better?

OPS is a fun stat, but I'll take wins.

kbrake
06-04-2007, 06:41 PM
There is no reason the Reds cant have both a better bullpen and Adam Dunn. You really think the answer to fixing the bullpen is to throw more money at it? If we are trading Adam Dunn so we can sign 3 more Mike Stantons I will pass.

With Medlock, Salmon, Coutlangus, Burton, and Mcbeth there are plenty of cheap and better options already in the Reds system. I really dont like the idea of patching up the pen through free agency.

One more point, I think its extremely unfair to say "Has Adam's bat helped so far? No." Quite frankly his bat has helped, its helped alot. Has the team had success? No, but the two have nothing to do with each other. Adam Dunn cant be blamed for poorly managed and constructed teams by incompetent managers and general managers.

I just dont see how Adam is part of the problem. If your asking me he should be the key ingredient of the solution.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2007, 07:10 PM
To your point and the genesis of this thread, that would be why I'm advocating trading Dunn right now. For a better bullpen. Through trade.

Then we'd also have his contract off the table to pay arbitration raises etc. for good young relievers. That is if Wayne isn't too timid to trade offense for relief, after last year?

And, yes, I think the two have plenty to do with each other. $12-13 million is a LOT of payroll, especially knowing that the Reds will spend about $65-75 mill a year total. If Dunn's getting that kind of bank, it can not be spent elsewhere. Where it might more be needed.

And now we have the chance to have a solid, cheap replacement in Josh Hamilton. That is exactly what teams like the Reds MUST do. Replace great and expensive with good and cheap. Trade that great/expensive commodity, get what you can for it and spend the recovered cash where you most need it.

kbrake
06-04-2007, 07:33 PM
None of us know what we have with Josh Hamilton. I just dont think its realistic to bank the future of the franchise on the kid. I'm sorry I just dont think he is the offensive player that Adam Dunn is. An outfield of any combination of Freel/Hopper/Griffey/Hamilton scares the hell out of me if it is an everyday thing.

I just dont see how we could bullpen guys that would make a fair trade for Dunn. We have young guys that should be given a chance to prove what they can do. Dunn for bullpen makes my stomach turn just thinking about it. You dont trade franchise players for bullpen help.

This team can win with Adam Dunn. Can it win with Jerry Narron? No. Wayne Krivksy? Probably not.

NorrisHopper30
06-04-2007, 07:45 PM
I think he will still be, he can be a franchise player and he is still only 25/26.

FlyingPig
06-04-2007, 07:45 PM
In the past, I'd stomp and cry and scream at anyone who would even bring up an Adam Dunn trade..He's the future!!!

But watching him play for the last half of last season and this season so far, I'm ready to let him go...He's not the future for the Reds..He's never going to cut down on the strikeouts, nor is he going to hit in crucial situations..and he's becoming a pitfall in the outfield..

He hits a lot of home runs..but after that..what does he offer in a trade anymore?

kbrake
06-04-2007, 08:12 PM
Adam Dunn is in the top 15 in the National League in Runs, HR, RBI, BB, SLG. I would say he is a pretty good player that offers more than just HR. Last year with RISP his OBP was .394 and his SLG was .529. Not too bad. And as long as Dunn is hitting 6th he is probably going to have a hard time getting good pitches in key situations.

ChatterRed
06-04-2007, 08:32 PM
Adam Dunn is in the top 15 in the National League in Runs, HR, RBI, BB, SLG. I would say he is a pretty good player that offers more than just HR. Last year with RISP his OBP was .394 and his SLG was .529. Not too bad. And as long as Dunn is hitting 6th he is probably going to have a hard time getting good pitches in key situations.

You love him so much, go out and sell him to some other team in a trade proposal and see what happens? Apparently not much.

If there were any trade value, I'm sure he'd already be gone. And that speaks volumes about his worth.

What has this team ever accomplished with Adam Dunn?

'Nuff said. Trade him. He is not the future. And then spend that saved $13 million and the money saved on Milton, WISELY!

mound_patrol
06-04-2007, 08:53 PM
You love him so much, go out and sell him to some other team in a trade proposal and see what happens? Apparently not much.

If there were any trade value, I'm sure he'd already be gone. And that speaks volumes about his worth.

What has this team ever accomplished with Adam Dunn?

'Nuff said. Trade him. He is not the future. And then spend that saved $13 million and the money saved on Milton, WISELY!

Adam Dunn is not the reason the Reds have been losing. Adam Dunn is not the reason the Reds have been losing. Adam Dunn is not the reason the Reds have been losing. It's the contracts of Milton, Stanton, and Cormier's as to why we are losing. 14 million a year for Dunn is worth it.

And the reason his trade value isnt very high is because of the contract clauses he has not what he brings to the table.

kbrake
06-04-2007, 09:02 PM
You love him so much, go out and sell him to some other team in a trade proposal and see what happens? Apparently not much.

If there were any trade value, I'm sure he'd already be gone. And that speaks volumes about his worth.

What has this team ever accomplished with Adam Dunn?

'Nuff said. Trade him. He is not the future. And then spend that saved $13 million and the money saved on Milton, WISELY!

The Rangers never won with A-Rod. Does that mean it must have been A-Rod's fault? Not at all. It would be tough to get much for Dunn because you would be trading him to a team for a few months. Most teams wont give up the entire farm for a rent-a-player.

Putting the blame on Adam Dunn for this team's failures is pathetic. The guy plays everyday, he plays hurt, he plays sick. You build your team around a guy like Adam Dunn. When I hear names like Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper, and Josh Hamilton as guys who would pick up the slack when Dunn is gone I puke a little in my mouth.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Gimme a break. Dunn is what he is. But he is NOT the end-all, be-all of this franchise.

Like the Rangers, the Reds can't afford to pay a star player that much percentage of its total payroll.

Show me a team that can. One player, 18 percent of its payroll. Show me a winner. For better or worse, we already have a marquee player to whom we commit a lot of money. His last name is Griffey. No team - especially a small market team like ours - can afford to have two. Period.

So if I'm the Reds, I get what I can for Dunn and keep the other high-salary franchise player, because at least he'll put butts in seats while he approaches milestones. The only milestone Dunn will approach in the next few seasons will be the single-season strikeout record. And, oh yea, the records he'd be breaking would be his own.

Maybe, just maybe the Reds will get overwhelmed with an offer for Junior. If so, explore it. Of course you have to hope it's a team he likes. Otherwise, it's all wheel spinning and then ego-stroking.

I say, trade Dunn while there are no strings. Yes, he's a rent-a-player. But teams have paid fairly well for this in the very recent past. Why not now? Someone already mentioned the Carlos Lee deal last season. Bingo.

Could Dunn bring us that back? Even those who love Dunn, set outside your emotions and answer that. And then we should all study how that trade helped the Brewers franchise and where they are now because of it.

kbrake
06-04-2007, 10:03 PM
Please, the Brewers are where they are because they have drafted well over several years. Like the Carlos Lee deal is the reason they are where they are right now. How many butts is Griffey going to put in the seats when he takes his annual trip to the DL?

I know strikeouts are horrible. If Dunn finishes his career in top 10 for all time strikeouts he would be with

Reggie Jackson
Sammy Sosa
Andres Galarraga
Jose Canseco
Willie Stargell
Jim Thome
Mike Schmidt
Fred McGriff
Tony Perez

Talk about a list of bums. Now I see your point, lets trade him.

Cicero
06-04-2007, 10:16 PM
You love him so much, go out and sell him to some other team in a trade proposal and see what happens? Apparently not much.

If there were any trade value, I'm sure he'd already be gone. And that speaks volumes about his worth.

What has this team ever accomplished with Adam Dunn?

'Nuff said. Trade him. He is not the future. And then spend that saved $13 million and the money saved on Milton, WISELY!

What has this team accomplished with anyone in the last 12 years? I assure you Dunn is not the problem.

If the right player/s were offered I would pull the trigger on anyone, but it would take at least a good number 3 starter.

I(heart)Freel
06-04-2007, 10:51 PM
Please, the Brewers are where they are because they have drafted well over several years. Like the Carlos Lee deal is the reason they are where they are right now. How many butts is Griffey going to put in the seats when he takes his annual trip to the DL?

I know strikeouts are horrible. If Dunn finishes his career in top 10 for all time strikeouts he would be with

Reggie Jackson
Sammy Sosa
Andres Galarraga
Jose Canseco
Willie Stargell
Jim Thome
Mike Schmidt
Fred McGriff
Tony Perez

Talk about a list of bums. Now I see your point, lets trade him.

First of all, I didn't say we should trade him because of his strikeouts. I think I said it's because he dominates the payroll too much for what he is.

Now go back to the post and answer the question: name a WINNING small market team with a player who makes 18 percent of the payroll. (Fact: Dunn's $13 mill paycheck would be 18 percent if our payroll in 2008 is again around $70 mill.)

Maybe they exist. I can't think of them.

kbrake
06-04-2007, 11:04 PM
First of all, I didn't say we should trade him because of his strikeouts. I think I said it's because he dominates the payroll too much for what he is.

Now go back to the post and answer the question: name a WINNING small market team with a player who makes 18 percent of the payroll. (Fact: Dunn's $13 mill paycheck would be 18 percent if our payroll in 2008 is again around $70 mill.)

Maybe they exist. I can't think of them.

I think it is more than possible to accomplish even if you or I cant think of a team doing right now off the top of our heads. Dunn's contract is not hurting this team. 2 years of Castro that hurts. 2 years of Stanton that hurts. Griffey hurts. Milton that one is real obvious. If your small market you cant make mistakes like these.

I wouldnt say Griffey's is a mistake but it does not help matters. And quite frankly I dont trust Wayne Krivsky to spend that 13.5 million on anything better than Adam Dunn.

Screwball
06-04-2007, 11:08 PM
And quite frankly I dont trust Wayne Krivsky to spend that 13.5 million on anything better than Adam Dunn.


Pretty much. Although I'm pretty sure Jose Mesa would love to hear Wayne Krivsky with that much money to burn.

:evil::bang::help:

Natty Redlocks
06-04-2007, 11:08 PM
The Rangers never won with A-Rod. Does that mean it must have been A-Rod's fault? Not at all. It would be tough to get much for Dunn because you would be trading him to a team for a few months. Most teams wont give up the entire farm for a rent-a-player.

Putting the blame on Adam Dunn for this team's failures is pathetic. The guy plays everyday, he plays hurt, he plays sick. You build your team around a guy like Adam Dunn. When I hear names like Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper, and Josh Hamilton as guys who would pick up the slack when Dunn is gone I puke a little in my mouth.

Whenever I hear the phrase "I puke a little in my mouth", I do a little doody in my pants. Just FYI.

I agree though; Dunn is severely undervalued. This thread seems like a great place to shamelessly dredge up a parody I wrote on this subject during the offseason:

Everybody Was Dunn Feud Fighting (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52214)

pokeyfan
06-04-2007, 11:10 PM
You guys can praise Adam Dunn all you want. But, he strikeouts way too much with men on base. Imagine what his production would be if he was a contact hitter, and not a hitter who tries to pull the ball in every situation. They put the shift on him every time at the plate. How many runs havn't scored because a shortstop played a grounder right behind 2nd base, or how many times have we not gotten a hit because the 2bman made a play on a hard grounder in right field? How many times has he not got the runner from 2nd to 3rd with less than 2 outs because of his inability to make contact? With all of his run production, how many runs have we sacrificed because of his play in LF? You see, i could be a top salesman in my company and sale the most trinkets, but what if i am costing the company more money than i am making because of my excessive travel expenses, excessive phone bills, etc..? Production is more than just how many runs you drive in or how many trinkets one may sale. Heck, David Weathers is near the top of the league in saves, do you want him to be our long term closer as well? I've seen many people lose money on stocks that they couldn't get rid of for sentimental reasons.

Gunner44
06-04-2007, 11:21 PM
trading dunn is just dumb........other than the strike outs he is a talented player who needs to be batting higher than sixth in this line up

mound_patrol
06-04-2007, 11:25 PM
You guys can praise Adam Dunn all you want. But, he strikeouts way too much with men on base. Imagine what his production would be if he was a contact hitter, and not a hitter who tries to pull the ball in every situation. They put the shift on him every time at the plate. How many runs havn't scored because a shortstop played a grounder right behind 2nd base, or how many times have we not gotten a hit because the 2bman made a play on a hard grounder in right field? How many times has he not got the runner from 2nd to 3rd with less than 2 outs because of his inability to make contact? With all of his run production, how many runs have we sacrificed because of his play in LF? You see, i could be a top salesman in my company and sale the most trinkets, but what if i am costing the company more money than i am making because of my excessive travel expenses, excessive phone bills, etc..? Production is more than just how many runs you drive in or how many trinkets one may sale. Heck, David Weathers is near the top of the league in saves, do you want him to be our long term closer as well? I've seen many people lose money on stocks that they couldn't get rid of for sentimental reasons.

Comparing Adam Dunn to David Weathers is hilarious. Adam Dunn is just coming into his prime while Weathers is cruising towards 40. And Dunn's numbers with runners in scoring position have been brought up numerous times, prolly even in this thread, and his OPS is very good with runners on. Strikeouts are a weak arguement as well because the determining stat is OPS not strikeouts. Were looking at avoiding outs. Adam Dunn avoids outs.

mound_patrol
06-04-2007, 11:26 PM
trading dunn is just dumb........other than the strike outs he is a talented player who needs to be batting higher than sixth in this line up

Yeah thats another thing I forgot about. Look what Dunn has done hitting early in the order and then look where Dunn hits for Narron. Pitchers are going to really go after Dunn when castro is lurking behind him.

pokeyfan
06-05-2007, 12:03 AM
Adam Dunn avoids outs.

but yet he hold the all time MLB record for K's in a season, and is on pace to break it once again. Now that is a funny statement. The only thing he avoids on a regular basis is the baseball....at the plate and in the field.

Fil3232
06-05-2007, 02:08 AM
but yet he hold the all time MLB record for K's in a season, and is on pace to break it once again. Now that is a funny statement. The only thing he avoids on a regular basis is the baseball....at the plate and in the field.

Dude, avoiding outs is about a lot more than K's. Check Dunn's OBP compared to the rest of the Reds over his tenure and maybe you can learn what avoiding outs looks like.

Fil3232
06-05-2007, 02:10 AM
The only thing hurting Dunn's trade value right now (except for Narron's horrendous lineup construction) is his contract that makes him a F.A. if traded.

I think he'll stay a Red at least until next ASB. I hope so anyway.

kbrake
06-05-2007, 07:02 AM
but yet he hold the all time MLB record for K's in a season, and is on pace to break it once again. Now that is a funny statement. The only thing he avoids on a regular basis is the baseball....at the plate and in the field.

Thats hilarious.

bucksfan2
06-05-2007, 09:44 AM
For all the proponents of trading Dunn find me players that have an equal skill set from the offensive side of the game. Done get me wrong Dun does have his shortcomings but there are very few people who are great at every aspect of baseball. His salary is what it is. It is basically defined by the structure of baseball. Sure it takes up 15% or so but the likes of Hamilton, EE, Phillips, Votto, and Baily will be cheaper in the coming seasons and will comprise of less that that 15% due to the structure of baseball.

Cigar2
06-05-2007, 09:45 AM
Not again.....Not another Let's Trade Dunn thread. If RedsZone had a nickle for every trade Dunn tread.:bang:
It could run forever or at least paydown the national debt.:rolleyes:

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 11:47 AM
but yet he hold the all time MLB record for K's in a season, and is on pace to break it once again. Now that is a funny statement. The only thing he avoids on a regular basis is the baseball....at the plate and in the field.

I don't even know how to comment on this statement. Educate yourself and look at the statistics that really matter in baseball. Dunn does all the things on offense you look for. He gets on base at a high clip, career 378. That is called his On Base Percentage (OBP). He hits for power, career 514. Thats called slugging percentage (SLG). If you add that together you get a career 892 OPS which means On Base Percentage plus Slugging Percentage. Thats easily top 5% in all of MLB. So tell me how you will find a replacement for Dunn for 13 Million.

I(heart)Freel
06-05-2007, 12:19 PM
I don't even know how to comment on this statement. Educate yourself and look at the statistics that really matter in baseball. Dunn does all the things on offense you look for. He gets on base at a high clip, career 378. That is called his On Base Percentage (OBP). He hits for power, career 514. Thats called slugging percentage (SLG). If you add that together you get a career 892 OPS which means On Base Percentage plus Slugging Percentage. Thats easily top 5% in all of MLB. So tell me how you will find a replacement for Dunn for 13 Million.


You don't. But you recognize that for a fraction of the cost, you could get a league average left fielder. That's called replacement value. And then you use the difference to shore up areas of weakness. That's called using your resources more intelligently.

Plus, you'll upgrade your defense AND gain some prospects.

kbrake
06-05-2007, 12:56 PM
You don't. But you recognize that for a fraction of the cost, you could get a league average left fielder. That's called replacement value. And then you use the difference to shore up areas of weakness. That's called using your resources more intelligently.

Plus, you'll upgrade your defense AND gain some prospects.

You really trust Wayne to do all this? Wayne has no clue what "using your resources more intelligently" means.

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 12:59 PM
You don't. But you recognize that for a fraction of the cost, you could get a league average left fielder. That's called replacement value. And then you use the difference to shore up areas of weakness. That's called using your resources more intelligently.

Plus, you'll upgrade your defense AND gain some prospects.

What player are the Reds going to sign for a "fraction of the cost" of Dunn that is league average.

I(heart)Freel
06-05-2007, 01:07 PM
You really trust Wayne to do all this? Wayne has no clue what "using your resources more intelligently" means.


Dude got Arroyo for Pena. Phillips for nothing. Hamilton for a roster spot.

He has also made a lot of bad moves. I'm sure those will be outlined.

But the bottom line, it's not like every move has been bad. So yea, I trust him. And I prefer him make that move, use his resources and truly revamp this team to be pitching- and defense-focused (which Dunn doesn't fit into), than to stand pat.

There's only one stat I care about: wins.

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 01:13 PM
Dude got Arroyo for Pena. Phillips for nothing. Hamilton for a roster spot.

He has also made a lot of bad moves. I'm sure those will be outlined.

But the bottom line, it's not like every move has been bad. So yea, I trust him. And I prefer him make that move, use his resources and truly revamp this team to be pitching- and defense-focused (which Dunn doesn't fit into), than to stand pat.

There's only one stat I care about: wins.

How many people in the world would still have a job if 50% of their decisions worked out okay. And the ones that krivsky have gotten wrong have been really bad. This team doesnt lose because Adam Dunn is on the roster. its how the other money is being spent.

bucksfan2
06-05-2007, 01:33 PM
You don't. But you recognize that for a fraction of the cost, you could get a league average left fielder. That's called replacement value. And then you use the difference to shore up areas of weakness. That's called using your resources more intelligently.

Plus, you'll upgrade your defense AND gain some prospects.

So you trade your best run producer and run scorer for a league average player. You probably gain some decent prospects that havn't proven a thing in the majors and you what sign relief pitching? Let say you move Dunn and have $13 million to play around with. What does that get you, Ted Lilly? Gil Mench? Gary Matthews Jr.? Jason Schmidt? Barry Zito? Furcal? Pierre? All these players make around $10 million or more. Are those good enough replacements for the value that Dunn has? Disregard Dunn's name and look at what he does and see if you would take that. Forget the fact that he doesn't play the outfield like a kamakazi or run to first base like Pete Rose. Forget all the biases that have developed against Dunn and what Marty says about him. Strictly look at his production and tell me that you don't want it. Then tell me how you replace that production. If you win a game 3-2 does it matter when your three runs score or even how they score?

eastkyred
06-05-2007, 03:12 PM
People that want to keep Dunn are drooling over his "stats". People that want to trade him are watching the games. I can't watch Adam Dunn play baseball and believe for one second that he is worth 18% of our payroll next year. Don't tell me what his stats are, watch the guy play.

I(heart)Freel
06-05-2007, 03:29 PM
How many people in the world would still have a job if 50% of their decisions worked out okay. And the ones that krivsky have gotten wrong have been really bad. This team doesnt lose because Adam Dunn is on the roster. its how the other money is being spent.

What a terrible argument.

By your own admission, Dunn fails over 60 percent of the time at the plate. And yet, he's good at what he does.

Pretty sure you can't measure baseball jobs against all others in the world.

And besides, no GM is flawless. None. My point, that you conveniently missed, was that Krivsky hasn't been awful and in my opinion can be trusted to allocate Dunn's $13 million more intelligently across the payroll.

bucksfan2
06-05-2007, 04:09 PM
People that want to keep Dunn are drooling over his "stats". People that want to trade him are watching the games. I can't watch Adam Dunn play baseball and believe for one second that he is worth 18% of our payroll next year. Don't tell me what his stats are, watch the guy play.

I dislike stats and dont think that they give you an accurate view of a player. Also I think that people can manipulate stats to make an argument one way or another. That said I the things I look for in a player are RBI's, Runs, OBP, Games played, and to some extent stolen bases. RBI and R are obvious becasue you dont win games if you are scoring runs/knocking runs it. Games played shows you how duriable a player is. OBP shows you what percentage of the time a player is able to get on base and sb can show you what kind of threat you are once you are on base. As of right now of all reds Dunn is
Games - T1st
OBP - 3rd
SB - 3rd
Runs - 1st
RBI - 1st

I watch the games as well and Dunn frustrates me as well but I cant ignore his production.

kbrake
06-05-2007, 04:12 PM
What a terrible argument.

By your own admission, Dunn fails over 60 percent of the time at the plate. And yet, he's good at what he does.

Pretty sure you can't measure baseball jobs against all others in the world.

And besides, no GM is flawless. None. My point, that you conveniently missed, was that Krivsky hasn't been awful and in my opinion can be trusted to allocate Dunn's $13 million more intelligently across the payroll.

Krivsky gets more awful with every move he makes. He has had over a year to fix a terrible bullpen. He traded away 25% of his offense and found a way to actually make the bullpen worse. He gave Mike Stanton 2 years. He gave Juan Castro 2 years. He gave Ryan Freel a 2 year extension when he should have traded him while he could. He gave David Ross an extension because he hit well for 3 months. He gave Jerry Narron a new deal.

I know what he has done with Arroyo and Phillips. However, as time keeps moving forward the moves keep getting worse. The return Wayne would get for trading Dunn scares the hell out of me. In way could I trust him to get even a decent return for Adam Dunn.

kbrake
06-05-2007, 04:13 PM
I dislike stats and dont think that they give you an accurate view of a player. Also I think that people can manipulate stats to make an argument one way or another. That said I the things I look for in a player are RBI's, Runs, OBP, Games played, and to some extent stolen bases. RBI and R are obvious becasue you dont win games if you are scoring runs/knocking runs it. Games played shows you how duriable a player is. OBP shows you what percentage of the time a player is able to get on base and sb can show you what kind of threat you are once you are on base. As of right now of all reds Dunn is
Games - T1st
OBP - 3rd
SB - 3rd
Runs - 1st
RBI - 1st

I watch the games as well and Dunn frustrates me as well but I cant ignore his production.

Holy crap, look at the logic on the Sun Deck. Great post man.

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 04:51 PM
What a terrible argument.

By your own admission, Dunn fails over 60 percent of the time at the plate. And yet, he's good at what he does.

Pretty sure you can't measure baseball jobs against all others in the world.

And besides, no GM is flawless. None. My point, that you conveniently missed, was that Krivsky hasn't been awful and in my opinion can be trusted to allocate Dunn's $13 million more intelligently across the payroll.

Comparing ball players and GM's are completely different. Yes Dunn fails 60% of the time, but he is better than the large majority in the amount that he succeeds in getting on base. Krivsky on the other hand has made a bad team worse. Like posted above he has managed to somehow make a bad bullpen worse. There is now way I can trust Krivsky at all in trading Dunn for much value.

eastkyred
06-05-2007, 05:21 PM
I dislike stats and dont think that they give you an accurate view of a player. Also I think that people can manipulate stats to make an argument one way or another. That said I the things I look for in a player are RBI's, Runs, OBP, Games played, and to some extent stolen bases. RBI and R are obvious becasue you dont win games if you are scoring runs/knocking runs it. Games played shows you how duriable a player is. OBP shows you what percentage of the time a player is able to get on base and sb can show you what kind of threat you are once you are on base. As of right now of all reds Dunn is
Games - T1st
OBP - 3rd
SB - 3rd
Runs - 1st
RBI - 1st

I watch the games as well and Dunn frustrates me as well but I cant ignore his production.

So you watch the games and think, "this guy can't possibly be worth 18% of our payroll" and we lose again. Then, the next morning you look at his stats on paper and change your mind? By all means, I am not saying that Dunn's production is the reason we lose. I'm saying that his chunk of the payroll will prevent us from being able to get better and win. If you don't trust Krivski, that's fine. But what are you saying? You don't want any moves made because you don't trust the GM? He's going to be around for a few years at least and I can't stand to do nothing and wait for him to get canned. He has made some good moves and some bad moves, but I'm in favor of more change with this team. Swapping out spare parts isn't going to turn the Reds around and make them a contender. A major move would have to include Harang, Arroyo, Dunn, or Griffey. Of those 4, the ones I would definately keep are Harang and Arroyo. Griffey would be harder to move than Dunn and will make less money than Dunn next year. Griffey is also going to bring more fans to the stands and in a few years, he'll be gone too. To be successful, Dunn has to go.

pokeyfan
06-05-2007, 05:47 PM
For those who base keeping Adam Dunn on his stats alone i ask you 2 questions:

1) What is the Reds record in Adam Dunn's career?

2) How great were Craig Krenzels stats for Ohio State the year they won the national championship? Stats don't mean a thing....getting the job done when it counts means everything. How many times has Adam Dunn got the job done when we needed a hit the most, or when we needed a running catch in the outfield, or needed a SAC fly to advance a runner... This isn't fantasy baseball..i digress.

I(heart)Freel
06-05-2007, 05:55 PM
Krivsky gets more awful with every move he makes. He has had over a year to fix a terrible bullpen. He traded away 25% of his offense and found a way to actually make the bullpen worse.

Wait... I thought Dunn was 25 percent of our offense. Were Kearns and Felipe 25 percent too?

Man, that's half.

I guess those good years from Aurilia, Phillips, Edwin and Ross and decent years from Junior, Valentin, Freel all added up to only 50 percent.

Yea... someone's using the new math.

kbrake
06-05-2007, 05:56 PM
1)You really think that LF is the problem with this team? Come on man grow up. Since 2002 this team would have won the same or less games with anyone else in LF.

2)I'm not even about to debate Adam Dunn vs. Craig Krenzel. Stats are important.

kbrake
06-05-2007, 05:59 PM
Wait... I thought Dunn was 25 percent of our offense. Were Kearns and Felipe 25 percent too?

Man, that's half.

I guess those good years from Aurilia, Phillips, Edwin and Ross and decent years from Junior, Valentin, Freel all added up to only 50 percent.

Yea... someone's using the new math.

I'm sorry maybe I was off on that. I thought I had read that on here. Either way it doesnt make the trade any better. Which is why I dont like the idea of trusting Krivsky trading Adam Dunn. Dunn has made up 25% of the Reds offense this year.

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 06:24 PM
For those who base keeping Adam Dunn on his stats alone i ask you 2 questions:

1) What is the Reds record in Adam Dunn's career?

2) How great were Craig Krenzels stats for Ohio State the year they won the national championship? Stats don't mean a thing....getting the job done when it counts means everything. How many times has Adam Dunn got the job done when we needed a hit the most, or when we needed a running catch in the outfield, or needed a SAC fly to advance a runner... This isn't fantasy baseball..i digress.

Are you serioiusly bringing these two points up. truely incredible. If i remember correctly Jr has been on this team as long as Dunn. As have many other players been on the team for an extended time. But you're probably right. It's Dunn's fault that the bullpen ERA is last in the league. It's Dunn's Fault Arroyo isn't performing like he did last year. It's Dunn's fault that Ross, Ede, and Freel aren't hitting like they did last year. All of this also shows how your krenzel logic if flawed. Krenzel had a ton of talent around him. His job was to not screw up. Dunn is expected to hit a 8 run homerun after the bullpen gave up another 6 spot.

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 06:28 PM
People that want to keep Dunn are drooling over his "stats". People that want to trade him are watching the games. I can't watch Adam Dunn play baseball and believe for one second that he is worth 18% of our payroll next year. Don't tell me what his stats are, watch the guy play.

So you are suggesting that the stats are lying. Dunn doesnt reallly drive in 100 runs. He doesn't really score 100. Those walks are a mirage. Sure Dunn looks like he doesn't care less what goes on. Just because he doesnt ride an emotional rollercoaster doesnt mean the guy is lazy and doesnt care. Are you saying Freel is more valuable to this team because he is scrappy?

dsmith421
06-05-2007, 07:11 PM
2) How great were Craig Krenzels stats for Ohio State the year they won the national championship? Stats don't mean a thing....getting the job done when it counts means everything.

Then perhaps you'd care to explain why proven winner Tony Womack was such a miserable failure for the Reds?

And then perhaps you'd care to list the lifetime W-L records of the teams on which Walter Johnson, Ernie Banks and Andre Dawson (to name three) played?

Gunner44
06-05-2007, 07:23 PM
agreed mound patrol

redsfan in nyc
06-05-2007, 07:25 PM
anybody know if germano or hensley would be worth it?

Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com, reports the San Diego Padres are looking into trading for Cincinnati Reds OF Adam Dunn. If traded, Dunn would become a free agent at the end of the season. However, the Padres are not as concerned about that as they are about potentially giving up a young pitcher, such as SP Justin Germano or SP Clay Hensley.

sonny
06-05-2007, 08:28 PM
The real discussion here should be is trading Dunn a stupid move or a smart one?

It's hard to ignore his stats for sure, but I just can't see him as a cornerstone for this franchise. By the time we are serious contenders again, Dunn will be into his 30's, making, what, 17-20 million. Is that wise? I don't know, thats why I don't run a MLB team.


anybody know if germano or hensley would be worth it?

If we do sell, I hope its not for so low.

lucky bugle boy
06-05-2007, 08:34 PM
anybody know if germano or hensley would be worth it?

Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com, reports the San Diego Padres are looking into trading for Cincinnati Reds OF Adam Dunn. If traded, Dunn would become a free agent at the end of the season. However, the Padres are not as concerned about that as they are about potentially giving up a young pitcher, such as SP Justin Germano or SP Clay Hensley.

Justin Germano, huh? Seems like I've heard that name before.:bang:

captainmorgan07
06-05-2007, 09:06 PM
I honestly do not believe he will be in a reds uniform as of august 1st. Im sick of all the strikeouts im sick of the unclutch hitting and im sick of the bad defense in left. What happened to the dunn of the first month where he used all fields cut down his swing to make contact. That's all im asking for is more contact and less wiffing and less taking pitches right down the heart of the plate.

mound_patrol
06-05-2007, 09:54 PM
I honestly do not believe he will be in a reds uniform as of august 1st. Im sick of all the strikeouts im sick of the unclutch hitting and im sick of the bad defense in left. What happened to the dunn of the first month where he used all fields cut down his swing to make contact. That's all im asking for is more contact and less wiffing and less taking pitches right down the heart of the plate.

An out is an out. Doesn't matter if he K's or lines out to the wall. It counts the same. What matters is how often he avoids the out. And as I've been hammering at in this thread, Adam Dunn avoids outs.

adampad
06-06-2007, 12:47 AM
I honestly do not believe he will be in a reds uniform as of august 1st. Im sick of all the strikeouts im sick of the unclutch hitting and im sick of the bad defense in left. What happened to the dunn of the first month where he used all fields cut down his swing to make contact. That's all im asking for is more contact and less wiffing and less taking pitches right down the heart of the plate.


100% agreed.


An out is an out. Doesn't matter if he K's or lines out to the wall. It counts the same. What matters is how often he avoids the out. And as I've been hammering at in this thread, Adam Dunn avoids outs.

WOW. I 100% disagree. An out that drives in a run or moves a runner in scoring position is a lot different than a K in my opinion.

dsmith421
06-06-2007, 01:32 AM
anybody know if germano or hensley would be worth it?

If, within a 12 month period, the Reds trade Justin Germano for the corpse of Rheal Cormier and then turn around and trade Adam Dunn to re-acquire him I will mail a bag of my poop to Wayne Krivsky.

eastkyred
06-06-2007, 08:00 AM
An out is an out. Doesn't matter if he K's or lines out to the wall. It counts the same. What matters is how often he avoids the out. And as I've been hammering at in this thread, Adam Dunn avoids outs.

this is ridiculous. An out is an out? This is the difference between Dunn on paper and watching the games. All the K's, all the terrible at bats in big situations, and the defense in the outfield. I'm not saying Dunn's stats are "lies", I'm saying he's not as good as his stats on paper say he is. He is not worth $14-$17 mil over the next 4 or 5 years. Paying a guy that kind of money is making him the cornerstone of your offense. That would be a mistake for the Reds. I'm not saying Dunn stinks compared to the average player in the league, he doesn't. I'm comparing him to Pujols, Berkman, Prince Fielder, Jason Bay, or Derek Lee. That's the franchise bats on the other teams in our division. Would any of those teams trade one of those guys for Dunn? There is no way. I don't know who the cornerstone of this Reds offense is going to be. It may be Josh Hamilton in a few years or maybe Jay Bruce, maybe someone else. The best thing the Reds could do for now is not overpay for the wrong guy and put the franchise in bind financially for the next 4-5 years.

mound_patrol
06-06-2007, 08:20 AM
this is ridiculous. An out is an out? This is the difference between Dunn on paper and watching the games. All the K's, all the terrible at bats in big situations, and the defense in the outfield. I'm not saying Dunn's stats are "lies", I'm saying he's not as good as his stats on paper say he is. He is not worth $14-$17 mil over the next 4 or 5 years. Paying a guy that kind of money is making him the cornerstone of your offense. That would be a mistake for the Reds. I'm not saying Dunn stinks compared to the average player in the league, he doesn't. I'm comparing him to Pujols, Berkman, Prince Fielder, Jason Bay, or Derek Lee. That's the franchise bats on the other teams in our division. Would any of those teams trade one of those guys for Dunn? There is no way. I don't know who the cornerstone of this Reds offense is going to be. It may be Josh Hamilton in a few years or maybe Jay Bruce, maybe someone else. The best thing the Reds could do for now is not overpay for the wrong guy and put the franchise in bind financially for the next 4-5 years.

Paying Dunn 14 million wont put this team in a bind for years to come. Cause Hamilton and Bruce wont cost much in the other two spots once griffeys contract is finally over. Votto, Philips, and Ede wont be costing us much in the infield. Our bullpen should be young if Krivsky actually gives those guys a ligit chance. We already have Harang and Arroyo long term. Bailey will be cheap and who knows where the other minor league pitchers will be. So I think the Reds can easily pay Dunn the money he deserves.

And yes I know a sac fly or a ground ball can move a runner, but in contrast a ground ball can also cost two outs. The fact of the matter is that Dunn still avoids outs.

eastkyred
06-06-2007, 08:29 AM
Paying Dunn 14 million wont put this team in a bind for years to come. Cause Hamilton and Bruce wont cost much in the other two spots once griffeys contract is finally over. Votto, Philips, and Ede wont be costing us much in the infield. Our bullpen should be young if Krivsky actually gives those guys a ligit chance. We already have Harang and Arroyo long term. Bailey will be cheap and who knows where the other minor league pitchers will be. So I think the Reds can easily pay Dunn the money he deserves.

And yes I know a sac fly or a ground ball can move a runner, but in contrast a ground ball can also cost two outs. The fact of the matter is that Dunn still avoids outs.

These guys you mention are cheap now. But the time is coming when they are going to get paid too. Phillips and EE are just a year away from arb, and Hamilton will be there also before Bruce even gets to the big leagues. We are also going to have to pay Bailey alot in a few years if he turns out to be what we hope he does. Paying Dunn won't strap the Reds next year, but in a few years when we have to start paying all these young guys we'll need that extra money. It's about value. Dunn isn't a terrible player, but at $13-$15 mil he is TERRIBLE value. Find another team in the division that would trade their best bat for Dunn. There's not one.

bucksfan2
06-06-2007, 09:00 AM
These guys you mention are cheap now. But the time is coming when they are going to get paid too. Phillips and EE are just a year away from arb, and Hamilton will be there also before Bruce even gets to the big leagues. We are also going to have to pay Bailey alot in a few years if he turns out to be what we hope he does. Paying Dunn won't strap the Reds next year, but in a few years when we have to start paying all these young guys we'll need that extra money. It's about value. Dunn isn't a terrible player, but at $13-$15 mil he is TERRIBLE value. Find another team in the division that would trade their best bat for Dunn. There's not one.

IMO Dunn isn't a terriable value. I would take the guy every year for the next 5 at $13-15 million per year. If you want to talk about value look at Dontrelle Willis. The guy is a darn good pitcher who plays every fifth day and accounts for 20% of the teams salary. If you ask me that borders on terriable value because there are 4 games in every 5 that he has no say on the final score.

Due to the structure of MLB and the pay scale if you have a young and talented team a contract of $14 million/year to Dunn doesn't do much harm. If you assume that guys like Encarnacion, Hamilton, Phillips, Bruce, Baily, Durmatrait, and Cueto are going to be contributors over the next 2 seasons or so you will have an inexpensive base. This will allow the team to spend money on Dunn without financially hurting the club. No matter how you slice it, skew it, how many biases you have you cant ignore Dunn's production. He is frustratingly painful to watch at times but he has a lot of value if you ask me. If they trade Dunn they need to get quite a bit for him and the thought of getting Germano for Dunn is just crazy talk.

eastkyred
06-06-2007, 09:35 AM
I'm not saying that Dunn is terrible value at that money for the entire league, I'm saying its terrible value for the Reds. He should not be the cornerstone of the reds offense or any other team that wants to compete. For some teams, 13-15 mil can be your second or third threat in the lineup. Dunn would be a good value for those teams. For the reds, if we pay that kind of money for an everyday player, he better be the #1 guy. How does he compare to other #1 guys in our division? Not good.

I also don't think that Bruce or Cueto will be contributors over the next 2 seasons. They may contribute some in '09 if they get here then, but they won't even start the year on the roster in '08. Those guys, all though performing very well, are in Sarasota right now. I don't think they will be there all year, but I also don't think they are part of the Reds plans for next year. Dumatrait is still very questionable in my opinion. I hope he turns out to be a contributor, but I don't think we can just assume that he is going to be. He'll get a chance, but right now he's getting hammered in Louisville after a great first month. I also agree that Dunn for Germano is ridiculous. Part of reason I want to trade Dunn is his value. I don't think his value is as high on the trade market as Chris Welsh, who suggested Dunn for Oswalt (that is more ridiculous than Germano for Dunn) but I think we could get a productive player or 2 out of Dunn. We don't have that many players that are going to bring much in return, but Dunn is one that would.

pokeyfan
06-07-2007, 02:30 PM
Well, for all of you Adam Dunn stat freaks, i will give you credit, he knocked in a run when it counted last night to put the Reds ahead 4-1....THEN he proceeded to miss a fly ball by "power hitting" David Eckstein allowing the Cards to pull within 4-3. Not only that, it subsequently allowed Pujols to come to the plate with 2 outs 2 innings later. Had we gotten that out on Eckstein, not only would we have had a 2 run lead, but Arroyo gets out of the inning with less pitches, and their lineup doesn't turnover as quickly. And how many times have we seen this happen in Adam Dunn's career? Too many for me.

kbrake
06-07-2007, 03:50 PM
Well, for all of you Adam Dunn stat freaks, i will give you credit, he knocked in a run when it counted last night to put the Reds ahead 4-1....THEN he proceeded to miss a fly ball by "power hitting" David Eckstein allowing the Cards to pull within 4-3. Not only that, it subsequently allowed Pujols to come to the plate with 2 outs 2 innings later. Had we gotten that out on Eckstein, not only would we have had a 2 run lead, but Arroyo gets out of the inning with less pitches, and their lineup doesn't turnover as quickly. And how many times have we seen this happen in Adam Dunn's career? Too many for me.

You have got to be kidding me. Are you really blaming him for something that happend two innings later? You cant be serious. Bronson threw the pitch to Pujols not Dunn. Bronson also threw the meatball to "power hitting" David Eckstein. Seriously both those pitches lie squarely on the shoulders of Bronson. That was a very foolish post.

pokeyfan
06-07-2007, 04:56 PM
You have got to be kidding me. Are you really blaming him for something that happend two innings later? You cant be serious. Bronson threw the pitch to Pujols not Dunn. Bronson also threw the meatball to "power hitting" David Eckstein. Seriously both those pitches lie squarely on the shoulders of Bronson. That was a very foolish post.


Agreed, they were bad pitches and ultimately Bronson's fault, BUT you guys want to give credit to Adam Dunn for being so productive, you also should give as much credit to him for his defense as being a PART of why our pitchers have been ineffective. Who knows, if he makes that catch, we get out of the inning with a 4-2 lead, and maybe Arroyo pitches a little differently. Don't think for a second that Dunn's misplay of Eckstein's ball didn't have some type of mental effect on the team. How many of us watching the game thought "well, here we go again"...don't you think the players think the same way at times?

If we get that out, then Duncan doesn't get the next at bat, and like a Domino effect, Pujols more than likely doesn't come up with 2 outs 2 innings later. We simply can't GIVE other teams outs and runs, and that's exactly what Adam Dunn did and consistently does. Yes, Arroyo made some bad pitches, but this loss wasn't squarely on his shoulders.

eastkyred
06-07-2007, 05:25 PM
You have got to be kidding me. Are you really blaming him for something that happend two innings later? You cant be serious. Bronson threw the pitch to Pujols not Dunn. Bronson also threw the meatball to "power hitting" David Eckstein. Seriously both those pitches lie squarely on the shoulders of Bronson. That was a very foolish post.

It may have been a meatball to Eckstein, but 99% of the outfielders in the big leagues catch that ball and end the inning. Maybe the Reds still lose, but that run was on Dunn.

kbrake
06-07-2007, 05:52 PM
You guys have completely lost it. Dunn was playing in because a hitter with zero power was up. Then Arroyo lets him launch one 400 ft and its Dunns fault. The guy has 3 errors this season, his defense is no where as bad as you guys wish it is and his bat more than makes up for it. If you guys held every player as responsible as you do Adam Dunn you would have a much more realistic view of this team.

And maybe its not all on Bronson, maybe we should be talking about the fact that Narron thought it was a good idea to let him throw 130 pitches in one game in May.

pokeyfan
06-07-2007, 06:55 PM
You guys have completely lost it. Dunn was playing in because a hitter with zero power was up. Then Arroyo lets him launch one 400 ft and its Dunns fault. The guy has 3 errors this season, his defense is no where as bad as you guys wish it is and his bat more than makes up for it. If you guys held every player as responsible as you do Adam Dunn you would have a much more realistic view of this team.

And maybe its not all on Bronson, maybe we should be talking about the fact that Narron thought it was a good idea to let him throw 130 pitches in one game in May.


okay, name me one left fielder in the National League who would not have caught that flyball? That play changed the alot in that game. Each game has its turning point, and that was the turning point of the game. Not the final nail in the coffin, but the turning point.

kbrake
06-07-2007, 07:58 PM
okay, name me one left fielder in the National League who would not have caught that flyball? That play changed the alot in that game. Each game has its turning point, and that was the turning point of the game. Not the final nail in the coffin, but the turning point.

I would bet my life that Barry Bonds doesnt get to that ball. I dont understand how you dont hold Bronson responsible for throwing a horrible pitch. Again the dude has 3 errors. He went back on the ball and leaped for it, it just got over his glove. Not like it was a single that he let go through his legs.

pokeyfan
06-07-2007, 08:10 PM
I would bet my life that Barry Bonds doesnt get to that ball. I dont understand how you dont hold Bronson responsible for throwing a horrible pitch. Again the dude has 3 errors. He went back on the ball and leaped for it, it just got over his glove. Not like it was a single that he let go through his legs.


Apparently you don't remember Barry Bonds chasing down a fly ball at GABP last year that allowed the Giants to beat the Reds. His leg has been hurting this year, plus he's 85 years old, so for you to try to compare Adam Dunn in his prime to a 85 year old injured outfielder should tell you something.

It's not like this is the first time or the last time this will happen. Arroyo probably throws at least 3000 pitches a year, and up until recently he averaged about 1 or 2 really bad pitches per 100 pitches....not a bad ratio if you ask me. Adam Dunn gets about 6 or 7 chances a game, and screws something up on almost a nightly basis seemingly. There is a huge difference.

kbrake
06-07-2007, 09:43 PM
He has THREE errors. If he screwed up every night he would be way past 3. I know stats dont matter, but sometimes they actually do.

Fil3232
06-07-2007, 11:31 PM
Adam Dunn needs to be set free from Cincinnati. He truely does. The 'fans' in this city will always be looking for the next Pete Rose or Marty-endorsed player. It's sad, it's pathertic, it's embarrassing.

Let him go to an environment where he is appreciated. Obviosuly,the casual baseball fan sees K's as a huge indicator of a player's worth, not caring enough to actually check what kind of correlation K's have toward outs-made. Folks, K's are not the be all, end all people think they are.

Dunn has ZERO relevance to the bullpen. He has ZERO relevance to the horrific starting pitching that has plauged this franchise for the last 10 years. He has ZERO relevance to Juan Castro, Chad Moeller, and Jeff Conine. Dunn has caused this team to lose about as much as me and you.

It's a shame Dunn is one of the more marketable people on this team because that has automatically made him public enemy #1. Barry Larkin never won anything after 1990, but he was never publically crucified like this. Jose Rijo was on terrible teams after 1990 but never crucified like this. What is it about Adam Dunn that makes him the target?

All I can think of his body type and percieved lack of caring. Which are both absurd.

Natty Redlocks
06-07-2007, 11:42 PM
Adam Dunn needs to be set free from Cincinnati. He truely does. The 'fans' in this city will always be looking for the next Pete Rose or Marty-endorsed player. It's sad, it's pathertic, it's embarrassing.

Let him go to an environment where he is appreciated. Obviosuly,the casual baseball fan sees K's as a huge indicator of a player's worth, not caring enough to actually check what kind of correlation K's have toward outs-made. Folks, K's are not the be all, end all people think they are.

Dunn has ZERO relevance to the bullpen. He has ZERO relevance to the horrific starting pitching that has plauged this franchise for the last 10 years. He has ZERO relevance to Juan Castro, Chad Moeller, and Jeff Conine. Dunn has caused this team to lose about as much as me and you.

It's a shame Dunn is one of the more marketable people on this team because that has automatically made him public enemy #1. Barry Larkin never won anything after 1990, but he was never publically crucified like this. Jose Rijo was on terrible teams after 1990 but never crucified like this. What is it about Adam Dunn that makes him the target?

All I can think of his body type and percieved lack of caring. Which are both absurd.

It's the strikeouts, the low BA, and the defense. These things are all a very big deal to some people, especially those who learned everything they wanted to know about baseball a long time ago.

Fil3232
06-08-2007, 12:18 AM
The defense has been shown to not be as bad as advertised this year. The Low BA? It's comes with the territory. He gets on base and creates runs. The strikeouts? Well, this isn't little league.

(Not a response to you Natty Redlocks, but to those who feel this way.)

bucksfan2
06-08-2007, 08:28 AM
Adam Dunn needs to be set free from Cincinnati. He truely does. The 'fans' in this city will always be looking for the next Pete Rose or Marty-endorsed player. It's sad, it's pathertic, it's embarrassing.

Let him go to an environment where he is appreciated. Obviosuly,the casual baseball fan sees K's as a huge indicator of a player's worth, not caring enough to actually check what kind of correlation K's have toward outs-made. Folks, K's are not the be all, end all people think they are.

Dunn has ZERO relevance to the bullpen. He has ZERO relevance to the horrific starting pitching that has plauged this franchise for the last 10 years. He has ZERO relevance to Juan Castro, Chad Moeller, and Jeff Conine. Dunn has caused this team to lose about as much as me and you.

It's a shame Dunn is one of the more marketable people on this team because that has automatically made him public enemy #1. Barry Larkin never won anything after 1990, but he was never publically crucified like this. Jose Rijo was on terrible teams after 1990 but never crucified like this. What is it about Adam Dunn that makes him the target?

All I can think of his body type and percieved lack of caring. Which are both absurd.

Great post. If I remember correctly Larkin was crucified because he signed a big contract. People blamed Larkin for the state of the club because ownership steped up and gave him a contract he deserved, albeit a little late in his career. If Dunn were making $5 million a year would people be happy? Fact of the matter is if the reds went out and spent $10-15 million more this offseason it probably would have netted them Ted Lilly or Gil Mench.

I think most reds fan have to realize that the big reds machine isn't coming back. There will never ever be another Pete Rose. The salary structure of baseball is completly different now. Top draft picks are getting $10 millon contracts and they may or may not ever set foot on a major league diamond over their career.

eastkyred
06-08-2007, 10:38 AM
He has THREE errors. If he screwed up every night he would be way past 3. I know stats dont matter, but sometimes they actually do.

Let's look at the defensive stats for Dunn this season. According to MLB.com, there are only 4 OF's in the National league with a worse fielding range and have played over 350 innings, and only 3 OF's that have more errors. By the way, Pat Burrell is the only one that is worse than Dunn at both categories. Bonds is 85 years old with bad legs and his fielding range is better than Dunn's. (he also only has 1 error) I also don't like to put everything on stats, I would rather make my own opinions watching the games. But, Dunn fails the stat test and the eye test miserably when it comes to his defense.

mound_patrol
06-08-2007, 12:09 PM
Can someone post the stats for win shares for Adam Dunn. Just curious as to what Dunn is. I'm guessing his offense makes up for his D and then some.

thatcoolguy_22
06-08-2007, 01:33 PM
He has THREE errors. If he screwed up every night he would be way past 3. I know stats dont matter, but sometimes they actually do.

I'm not on any particular side in this argument. However, I will like to point out that it is IMPOSSIBLE to receive an error when you are still 20 feet from the ball when it lands...

And no, fielding stats do not matter. Ozzie Smith himself averaged almost 20 errors a season.

AmarilloRed
06-08-2007, 01:39 PM
If we were contending, we might trade him. As things are now, he will be a Red the rest of this year.

kbrake
06-08-2007, 02:36 PM
I agree errors are a bad stat but if Dunn was a butcher on a nightly basis he would have more than 3. How many OF's in the NL are better on offense than Adam Dunn? Off the top of my head I got Beltran, Lee and then maybe Soriano and Bay. Thats it. I would say Dunn is just fine.

eastkyred
06-08-2007, 03:56 PM
Can someone post the stats for win shares for Adam Dunn. Just curious as to what Dunn is. I'm guessing his offense makes up for his D and then some.

No doubt it does. I don't think the issue is if Dunn can play or not, I think the issue is if the Reds should pay close to $15 mil per year for the next several years for him. If it was half that amount, I would say Dunn was a good bargain, but he won't be at $15 mil.

eastkyred
06-08-2007, 03:58 PM
I agree errors are a bad stat but if Dunn was a butcher on a nightly basis he would have more than 3. How many OF's in the NL are better on offense than Adam Dunn? Off the top of my head I got Beltran, Lee and then maybe Soriano and Bay. Thats it. I would say Dunn is just fine.

I would add M. Holliday and A. Jones to that list.

bucksfan2
06-08-2007, 04:29 PM
I would add M. Holliday and A. Jones to that list.

A. Jones sure is ripping the cover off the ball this year.

kbrake
06-09-2007, 09:48 AM
I would add M. Holliday and A. Jones to that list.

I will give you Holliday but Soriano is off the list without question after looking at his numbers a little more. Andruw Jones this isnt 2005

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 11:13 AM
I would add M. Holliday and A. Jones to that list.

I will add two just off the Reds Josh Hamilton and Ken Griffey Jr.

nate
06-09-2007, 12:13 PM
Can someone post the stats for win shares for Adam Dunn. Just curious as to what Dunn is. I'm guessing his offense makes up for his D and then some.

Currently (http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&team_filter%5B%5D=CIN&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit) at 6, which is second on the team behind Griffey who has 7.

Babe Castro has -1!

kbrake
06-09-2007, 12:36 PM
I will add two just off the Reds Josh Hamilton and Ken Griffey Jr.

Thats laughable. I dont even know how to respond to that.

dsmith421
06-09-2007, 02:26 PM
Thats laughable. I dont even know how to respond to that.

Reds fans hate, and I mean hate, good ballplayers. I think it's the Pete Rose fetish.

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 03:53 PM
Thats laughable. I dont even know how to respond to that.

Well then just respond to this. Why is it laughable?To me what is laughable is that anyone would think that A.Dunn will ever be the player that K.Griffey is that to me that is laughable and Hamilton is and will be a much better play than A.Dunn as long as he stays clean. Remember you heard it here first.

kbrake
06-09-2007, 04:03 PM
You have to be kidding. Junior and Hamilton over Dunn? Come on man. You show me what either one of them has done over the last 3 years that really makes you think they are better than Dunn right now. Junior has had a great start but its always a question mark as to when he will go down. And its insane to say Hamilton over Dunn. The kid had a good first 6 weeks to the season. Dunn has been the most productive Red for 3 years and this year he is again so far. Right now Dunn is on a different level than the both of them.

redsfanmia
06-09-2007, 04:16 PM
You have to be kidding. Junior and Hamilton over Dunn? Come on man. You show me what either one of them has done over the last 3 years that really makes you think they are better than Dunn right now. Junior has had a great start but its always a question mark as to when he will go down. And its insane to say Hamilton over Dunn. The kid had a good first 6 weeks to the season. Dunn has been the most productive Red for 3 years and this year he is again so far. Right now Dunn is on a different level than the both of them.

Comparing Dunn to Hamitlon is a little premature but saying that Dunn is on a different level than a healthy Griffey is whats laughable.

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 04:33 PM
You have to be kidding. Junior and Hamilton over Dunn? Come on man. You show me what either one of them has done over the last 3 years that really makes you think they are better than Dunn right now. Junior has had a great start but its always a question mark as to when he will go down. And its insane to say Hamilton over Dunn. The kid had a good first 6 weeks to the season. Dunn has been the most productive Red for 3 years and this year he is again so far. Right now Dunn is on a different level than the both of them.

Well A.Dunn has had 214 AB Jr. 196 Jr. has 1 less HR and leads Dunn in OBP SLG.Hits and Walks thats just at the plate in the outfield Junior isn't the 10 time gold glover he once was but he is still ALOT better then Dunn will ever be! You say Junior is off to great start but he's not he is off to a AVG. start for him when he is healthy and he is for the first time in a long time that is what makes comparing AD to a future Hall of famer Laughable.

As far as Hamilton goes I am just going off of what I see because that is really all we have and yes I feel when all is said and done Hamilton will be the much better of the two IMHO and as far as Dunn being the most productive player the last three year you are right and that is one of the reasons we haven't been very good.We need more productive players or more production from the players we have.AD has only drove in 100 runs two times.

pokeyfan
06-09-2007, 06:01 PM
Ken Griffey Jr. > Adam Dunn. (<-- yep, that's a big PERIOD) I'm beginning to think that some of these people are Adam Dunn's fishing buddies.

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 06:17 PM
Ken Griffey Jr. > Adam Dunn. (<-- yep, that's a big PERIOD) I'm beginning to think that some of these people are Adam Dunn's fishing buddies.

I just don't understand why so many people get caught up in the #'s I mean come on people this isn't fantasy Baseball watch the games.Adam Dunn is a good player that would make a much better DH then OFer but he isn't the end all be all some of you think he is and there is no way i would pay him 14 mil a year but that is just me.

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 06:34 PM
Thats laughable. I dont even know how to respond to that.

I will add Griffey career OPS is .957 sense you like to throw # around but thats not really fair so we will just go by this year to date Griffey 918 Dunn 879 Laughable right?

bradmanuel
06-09-2007, 06:37 PM
Look at the money Carlos Lee got. Look at his numbers compared to Dunn's. Look at the money Soriano got. Again, look at his numbers. Even if upcoming offseasons aren't as insane as this one was, Dunn will get his bank. It doesn't matter if you think he's worth it or not, you have to be realistic about what guys are worth compared to the market. Strikeouts don't mean a thing. Look at the walks. People love talking in terms of baseball cliches; a walk IS as good as a hit. Use common sense when evaluating what production is. When Dunn is gone, whenever that may be, there will be a lot of people missing him after the fact.

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 06:55 PM
Look at the money Carlos Lee got. Look at his numbers compared to Dunn's. Look at the money Soriano got. Again, look at his numbers. Even if upcoming offseasons aren't as insane as this one was, Dunn will get his bank. It doesn't matter if you think he's worth it or not, you have to be realistic about what guys are worth compared to the market. Strikeouts don't mean a thing. Look at the walks. People love talking in terms of baseball cliches; a walk IS as good as a hit. Use common sense when evaluating what production is. When Dunn is gone, whenever that may be, there will be a lot of people missing him after the fact.

I agree he will get his bank I just hope it's not here but like I said that is just IMHO and those other guys you talked about wasn't worth the bank either just because they got what they did don't make it a good or the right move for the team that over paid.Not to mention that Dunn's OPS has declined each of the last three season.

bradmanuel
06-09-2007, 07:22 PM
But where else are you going to get his production? If someone else will pay him, he is worth it to the market. Do you want to contend or not? You can't be sure the Reds are going to develop another Dunn. They aren't going to sign a comparable player if they trade him. Do you trust Krivsky to find another one? I don't. You have to keep him if you're serious about winning. He's going to turn 28 this November. He's just entering his prime years (although the dropping OPS *is* a concern).

Lockdwn11
06-09-2007, 08:06 PM
But where else are you going to get his production? If someone else will pay him, he is worth it to the market. Do you want to contend or not? You can't be sure the Reds are going to develop another Dunn. They aren't going to sign a comparable player if they trade him. Do you trust Krivsky to find another one? I don't. You have to keep him if you're serious about winning. He's going to turn 28 this November. He's just entering his prime years (although the dropping OPS *is* a concern).

I would take the 14 mil and use it on pitching.We have Dunn now are we contending?There is many ways to make up for Dunn's production better pitching and defense is one I mean it's not like he is driving in 120 runs a year he has only drove in 100 2 times in his life so yes I think it can be replaced.To me Dunn has to many holes in his game to say he can't be replaced.

reds44
06-10-2007, 03:08 AM
Adam Dunn is available for a trade. Padres and Dodgers are interested. He says the Angles have had past interest.

MLB on FOX TV, per Ken Rosenthal

Dunn for Kemp anyone?

kbrake
06-10-2007, 10:08 AM
I would take the 14 mil and use it on pitching.We have Dunn now are we contending?There is many ways to make up for Dunn's production better pitching and defense is one I mean it's not like he is driving in 120 runs a year he has only drove in 100 2 times in his life so yes I think it can be replaced.To me Dunn has to many holes in his game to say he can't be replaced.

Are we contending now? No, but it is not Dunn's fault. It is much harder to contend because all the money that was thrown at Stanton, Castro, Cormier, etc. Milton's contract hurts us more than Dunn. I know baseball contracts are crazy but if you ever want to contend your going to have to get over it and pay someone around 15 mil a year.

Lockdwn11
06-10-2007, 10:53 AM
Are we contending now? No, but it is not Dunn's fault. It is much harder to contend because all the money that was thrown at Stanton, Castro, Cormier, etc. Milton's contract hurts us more than Dunn. I know baseball contracts are crazy but if you ever want to contend your going to have to get over it and pay someone around 15 mil a year.

I agree it's not all Dunn's fault hell he isn't even the biggest problem but his Defense and stikeouts are part of the problem .Milton is gone after this year and I understand you will have to pay someone to contend but I 'm not for paying a guy with that many hole in his game 14-15 mil a year I mean if he is as good as some of you think we could trade him for just about anyone in the league right?I mean every team in the league is beating down the door to get him right

redsfanmia
06-10-2007, 11:52 AM
Are we contending now? No, but it is not Dunn's fault. It is much harder to contend because all the money that was thrown at Stanton, Castro, Cormier, etc. Milton's contract hurts us more than Dunn. I know baseball contracts are crazy but if you ever want to contend your going to have to get over it and pay someone around 15 mil a year.

If the Reds pay Dunn 15 million a year than they are doomed for second division finishes. If Dunn lost 40 lbs and cut down on his swing and actually improved on his defense then maybe sign him long term but until he actually does that he is not worthy of a big time deal from the Reds. The Reds are a mid market team they cant pay 1/5 of their payroll to an overweight, lazy player. The Reds cant make mistakes with big contracts and signing Dunn to one would be a mistake IMO.

Lockdwn11
06-10-2007, 12:27 PM
If the Reds pay Dunn 15 million a year than they are doomed for second division finishes. If Dunn lost 40 lbs and cut down on his swing and actually improved on his defense then maybe sign him long term but until he actually does that he is not worthy of a big time deal from the Reds. The Reds are a mid market team they cant pay 1/5 of their payroll to an overweight, lazy player. The Reds cant make mistakes with big contracts and signing Dunn to one would be a mistake IMO.

I would also agree that if dunn lost some weight, cut down on his swing and moved to first(because he is NOT a OFer) he would be alot better player but the one thing I see from Dunn is a unwillingness to do any of those things

redsfanmia
06-10-2007, 12:39 PM
I would also agree that if dunn lost some weight, cut down on his swing and moved to first(because he is NOT a OFer) he would be alot better player but the one thing I see from Dunn is a unwillingness to do any of those things

He has been in the majors since 2001 and is a worse player now than he was when he was brought up doesnt that send up any red flags to anyone?

Natty Redlocks
06-10-2007, 12:48 PM
Are we contending now? No, but it is not Dunn's fault. It is much harder to contend because all the money that was thrown at Stanton, Castro, Cormier, etc. Milton's contract hurts us more than Dunn. I know baseball contracts are crazy but if you ever want to contend your going to have to get over it and pay someone around 15 mil a year.

Amen bro. On a team where so many guys aren't earning their keep, putting the blame on one guy who's actually producing is insane. But Dunn offends the sensibilites so people can't stand him. And he's gonna be given away for peanuts, and that sucks.

Lockdwn11
06-10-2007, 01:06 PM
Amen bro. On a team where so many guys aren't earning their keep, putting the blame on one guy who's actually producing is insane. But Dunn offends the sensibilites so people can't stand him. And he's gonna be given away for peanuts, and that sucks.

Who is blaming Adam Dunn for all the Reds troubles I'm not. This thread is about Adam Dunn that is why we are talking about Adam Dunn and not all the other problems the Reds have.I guess when you say he isn't worth 14-15 mil a year you are picking on the poor guy.

kbrake
06-10-2007, 01:13 PM
If the Reds pay Dunn 15 million a year than they are doomed for second division finishes. If Dunn lost 40 lbs and cut down on his swing and actually improved on his defense then maybe sign him long term but until he actually does that he is not worthy of a big time deal from the Reds. The Reds are a mid market team they cant pay 1/5 of their payroll to an overweight, lazy player. The Reds cant make mistakes with big contracts and signing Dunn to one would be a mistake IMO.

Yeah the dude is lazy I know, but once again he will play in more games than any other Red. For about the 4th straight season...he is the definition of lazy. I will never understand why the K's bother you guys so much. I mean would you really rather have Casey's 27 DP balls or Dunn's 200 K's? Yeah I know there are times where I wish he would make contact all the time. Guy on 3rd less than 2 outs, but how many times does he K in that spot? Maybe 8 times a year, is that really reason enough to not want to keep him around.

Chi-Town Red
06-10-2007, 01:20 PM
an out is an out....is he worth 15 mil ? nope
but unless we get some REAL help in the bullpen
we might as well put one of us out there.
keep the guy and get some bullpen help!!

Lockdwn11
06-10-2007, 01:28 PM
Yeah the dude is lazy I know, but once again he will play in more games than any other Red. For about the 4th straight season...he is the definition of lazy. I will never understand why the K's bother you guys so much. I mean would you really rather have Casey's 27 DP balls or Dunn's 200 K's? Yeah I know there are times where I wish he would make contact all the time. Guy on 3rd less than 2 outs, but how many times does he K in that spot? Maybe 8 times a year, is that really reason enough to not want to keep him around.

Well for me it's not just the Ks it's the Defense and the lack of progress in his game he is not getting any better but he is getting worse.The K's yes are a big deal to me not only with a runner on 3rd with less then 2 out but K's with runners on 2nd with 1-2 out. I will never understand why the K's bother you so little I mean the guy don't just strikeout he strikeout MORE then any other player that has ever played a MLB season but you don't see a problem with that?It's not that he strikeout it's the amount of times he strikeout I have trouble with. His OPS has gone down and his K's have gone up in each of the past three year and you want to give him 14-15 mil over the next 4-5 years?I DON'T

redsfanmia
06-10-2007, 01:38 PM
Yeah the dude is lazy I know, but once again he will play in more games than any other Red. For about the 4th straight season...he is the definition of lazy. I will never understand why the K's bother you guys so much. I mean would you really rather have Casey's 27 DP balls or Dunn's 200 K's? Yeah I know there are times where I wish he would make contact all the time. Guy on 3rd less than 2 outs, but how many times does he K in that spot? Maybe 8 times a year, is that really reason enough to not want to keep him around.

What part of Dunn's game has improved since he has been here? He is a big tough kid who plays all the time, sometimes to his detrament imo. What did Dunn hit last august and september? Maybe a day off here and there would have helped maybe not. I watch the man in left and I watch him loaf after many balls. I have watched him at bat the last 5+ years and he looks like a worse hitter than he was when he started. I have watched him gain weight the last 5+ years and you roll all of those things together and it spells out to me that he is a lazy player.

Lockdwn11
06-10-2007, 01:43 PM
an out is an out....is he worth 15 mil ? nope
but unless we get some REAL help in the bullpen
we might as well put one of us out there.
keep the guy and get some bullpen help!!

A out is a out? I would disagree with you there T.Hafner was 0-6 last night with 2 RBI.

eastkyred
06-11-2007, 10:30 AM
Who is blaming Adam Dunn for all the Reds troubles I'm not. This thread is about Adam Dunn that is why we are talking about Adam Dunn and not all the other problems the Reds have.I guess when you say he isn't worth 14-15 mil a year you are picking on the poor guy.

Great post. This is the point that people are losing sight on. Its not that Dunn is a bad player, he just isn't worth 14-15 mil for a mid to small market team like the Reds.

AmarilloRed
06-11-2007, 01:39 PM
I think if you can hit 40 HRS, walk 100 times,and drive in 100 runs you can make a case you are worth 15 million. If you hit .270, you will definitely be worth it. I know he will never be a great defender, but he is worth 15 million. Whether or not the Reds choose to pay that 15 million is a seperate question, and we will find out this offseason.

reds44
06-11-2007, 02:26 PM
From SI



Dunn done in Cincy?

The Reds are ready to take offers on Adam Dunn, whose terrific power should draw decent interest despite the significant flaws in his game.

Lots of big names could be bandied about this trading season -- Jermaine Dye, Mark Buehrle, Carlos Zambrano, Troy Glaus, Scott Rolen, Mark Teixeira and perhaps even Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera are among the stars who are candidates to be moved -- but Dunn's is one name that's already out there as available, league sources told SI.com.

Dunn is what you might call the leadoff man in what could be a thrilling time for trades.

Power is about the most sought after skill right now, and Dunn has it an abundance. However, Dunn comes with a couple drawbacks, including the major question of where to play him. He's a poor and indifferent outfielder, and a few teams are now considering whether to try to acquire Dunn as a first baseman, though one scout warned, "He's terrible there. I wouldn't use him at first base."

Added one general manager, "I see him as more of an American League player and a DH."

All three Southern California teams could have interest in Dunn, as could anyone else seeking power. Dunn, who's making $10.5 million this season and has an option for $13 million next year (or a $500,000 buyout), is batting .250 with 15 home runs and 38 RBIs. While his power is elite, Dunn hasn't hit in the clutch. He's batting only .212 with runners in scoring position and .208 with runners on base.

Trading Dunn makes sense for the Reds, especially if they can get solid pitching in return -- they have allowed the most runs in the National League this season. They are one of baseball's most underachieving teams, and a bit of a shakeup could do them good, anyway. No way it could hurt.

big boy
06-11-2007, 02:34 PM
This is from Rotoworld:
According to SI.com's Jon Heyman, the Reds have already made Adam Dunn available in trade talks.
Dunn and Brandon Phillips to the Nationals for Jon Rauch and Saul Rivera? Excuse us if we don't trust GM Wayne Krivsky to get a great return for Dunn, who is on pace for a fourth straight 40-homer season. He's a tougher sell because he'd likely void his $13 million option for 2008 if traded. The Padres are believed to be interested, and the Dodgers could really use a power hitter. AL contenders with potential fits for an outfielder or DH include, the Yankees, White Sox, Mariners and Twins. However, we could see the Yankees going after Ken Griffey Jr. first and he's not a Twins kind of player even if the team did have room in its budget fot him.

HumnHilghtFreel
06-11-2007, 02:50 PM
This is from Rotoworld:
According to SI.com's Jon Heyman, the Reds have already made Adam Dunn available in trade talks.
Dunn and Brandon Phillips to the Nationals for Jon Rauch and Saul Rivera? Excuse us if we don't trust GM Wayne Krivsky to get a great return for Dunn, who is on pace for a fourth straight 40-homer season. He's a tougher sell because he'd likely void his $13 million option for 2008 if traded. The Padres are believed to be interested, and the Dodgers could really use a power hitter. AL contenders with potential fits for an outfielder or DH include, the Yankees, White Sox, Mariners and Twins. However, we could see the Yankees going after Ken Griffey Jr. first and he's not a Twins kind of player even if the team did have room in its budget fot him.

I just read this and was about to post it.

I really. Really. Really hope that the deal with the Nats they mentioned was in jest of last year's debacle. If that were to happen, I might be forced to abandon ship for a while.

reds44
06-11-2007, 02:51 PM
I just read this and was about to post it.

I really. Really. Really hope that the deal with the Nats they mentioned was in jest of last year's debacle. If that were to happen, I might be forced to abandon ship for a while.
I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm on rotoworld's part.

Phillips isn't going anywhere. He is the definition of a Krivsky guy.

durl
06-11-2007, 03:09 PM
Dunn gets on base and hits 35-40 HRs a year, but it's that .212 w/RISP and .208 with runners on base that drastically cuts into his value.

He's not the only one on this team with problems getting runners in, that's for sure. Still, even his Sac Fly numbers are horrendous.

44Magnum
06-12-2007, 09:26 AM
I really believe moving him will be best for the team. I know he hits some bombs and draws some walks, but his strikeouts and horrendous outfield play simply kill the Reds.

I also believe we need players who are more dedicated to the sport.

joshnky
06-12-2007, 09:35 AM
I also believe we need players who are more dedicated to the sport.

Thats exactly what we need, more dedicated players because thats such a clear indication of team success.:rolleyes: Eric Milton always seemed very dedicated as does Juan Castro, do you want more players like them? What we need is more talented players and Dunn is not the problem in this regard.

By the way, is Wanye pronounced similar to Kanye West?

Ben
06-12-2007, 09:41 AM
:deadhorse

CySeymour
06-12-2007, 09:42 AM
I'm for moving him, if the team adds something of value in return. But trading him just for the sake of trading him is a mistake, imo.

rotnoid
06-12-2007, 09:46 AM
I'm for moving him, if the team adds something of value in return. But trading him just for the sake of trading him is a mistake, imo.

I'm not a Dunn supporter by any stretch, but this is a great point. If they're trading him now to avoid criticism for not picking up the option later, this is a bad move. The return needs to be worthwhile. That being said, since the option is voided if he's traded, I'm sure many will be disappointed with what they actually do get.

44Magnum
06-12-2007, 09:47 AM
You are the kind of person that ruins every forum on the web.
First you fail to understand the post and reply anyway, then you treat us all to a spelling and or grammar lesson.

Please do everyone in the future a favor and refrain from posting.


Thats exactly what we need, more dedicated players because thats such a clear indication of team success.:rolleyes: Eric Milton always seemed very dedicated as does Juan Castro, do you want more players like them? What we need is more talented players and Dunn is not the problem in this regard.

By the way, is Wanye pronounced similar to Kanye West?

eastkyred
06-12-2007, 09:55 AM
I'm not a Dunn supporter by any stretch, but this is a great point. If they're trading him now to avoid criticism for not picking up the option later, this is a bad move. The return needs to be worthwhile. That being said, since the option is voided if he's traded, I'm sure many will be disappointed with what they actually do get.

I wouldn't trade him for a bucket of balls, but if they don't plan on picking up his option, they will lose him and get nothing. His return may not be as great as everyone would like because he could be a rent-a-player, but even if we got a few good prospects that would be better than just not picking up his option and letting him go for nothing.

joshnky
06-12-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm for moving him, if the team adds something of value in return. But trading him just for the sake of trading him is a mistake, imo.

I totally agree. Dunn is a very frustrating player but he does bring value to the team. I firmly believe that when you throw out the money, this team is worse without Dunn so you need to get something of value in return to make up for the loss of offense. Trading Dunn for two marginal prospects will not suffice in my opinion. However, if Wayne has decided not to pick up Dunn's option for next year (which would likely be a mistake) then he should hold out for the best deal and then take it regardless of the return so that he gets something in return for three months of Adam Dunn.

bucksfan2
06-12-2007, 10:12 AM
Dunn will be back here next year if not traded. Look at all the other contracts that were shelled out last season and you can see the Reds picking up his option. If Dunn is moved the reds MUST get good value for him.

eastkyred
06-12-2007, 10:17 AM
Dunn will be back here next year if not traded. Look at all the other contracts that were shelled out last season and you can see the Reds picking up his option. If Dunn is moved the reds MUST get good value for him.

I don't think the reds can sign Dunn to a long term, big contract just because other teams did the same thing last off season. The two biggest deals were made for Lee and Soriano by teams that have more money than the Reds. Look how far it got the Cubs and the Astros making those deals. I don't care how many HR's Dunn hits...I want to win. We aren't going to win if Dunn gets 20% of the payroll.

rotnoid
06-12-2007, 10:27 AM
I wouldn't trade him for a bucket of balls, but if they don't plan on picking up his option, they will lose him and get nothing. His return may not be as great as everyone would like because he could be a rent-a-player, but even if we got a few good prospects that would be better than just not picking up his option and letting him go for nothing.

Some would argue that the draft pick compensation is better than a never will be, will miss prospect. At least then, there's a chance. The key here is the quality of the prospect. I'd be willing to take my chances on the draft picks if there isn't at least one ML ready prospect in the package.

eastkyred
06-12-2007, 11:02 AM
Some would argue that the draft pick compensation is better than a never will be, will miss prospect. At least then, there's a chance. The key here is the quality of the prospect. I'd be willing to take my chances on the draft picks if there isn't at least one ML ready prospect in the package.

I did say a few good prospects, not "never will be, will miss" prospects. I don't think think there is any doubt that Dunn sould at least bring a few good prospects. They may be a few years away from being major league ready, but 2 GOOD prospects would be better than a comp pick.

klw
06-12-2007, 12:36 PM
From Ken Rosenthal
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6911370


Teams wait to pull trigger on Dunn trade
Ken Rosenthal



The Reds are drawing significant trade interest in left fielder Adam Dunn, and if they're going to move the slugger, it would behoove them to do it as quickly as possible.

Dunn's contract stipulates that his $13 million club option for next season would be voided by a trade, making him a free agent at the end of the season. Thus, the sooner the Reds acted, the better the package they would receive.
The Dodgers are interested in Dunn, sources say, but seemingly have no place to put him; Dunn is below-average in left field, and neither he nor the Dodgers' current left fielder, Luis Gonzalez, would be adequate in right.

The Padres like Dunn, but have had no recent discussions with the Reds. The Twins are looking for a designated hitter, but Dunn, earning $10.5 million, is beyond their price range. The Angels have shown past interest in Dunn, but manager Mike Scioscia generally prefers more well-rounded players.

Dunn, 27, is an all-or-nothing hitter who has struck out 83 times in 220 at-bats this season, but posted an .869 on-base/slugging percentage, ninth among National League outfielders.

He clearly is better suited for the AL, where he could serve as a designated hitter; one rival executive wonders how a player who was a top high-school quarterback is now a "40" thrower on the scouts' 20 to 80 scale.

The Dodgers, ninth in the NL in runs per game, clearly are frustrated with their offense. Manager Grady Little has dropped center fielder Juan Pierre to eighth in the batting order, and the team promoted first baseman James Loney and outfielder Matt Kemp over the weekend.

Loney will spell Nomar Garciaparra and perhaps Gonzalez, and Kemp figures to be a fill-in for Pierre, who thus far has been a $44 million free-agent bust. One executive, however, says general manager Ned Colletti is itching to "pull a Kenny Williams" and make a pro-active move. His No. 1 choice, Marlins third baseman Miguel Cabrera, is not available.

One possibility would be to include Gonzalez along with young players in a deal for Dunn, but Gonzalez has been one of the Dodgers' hottest hitters of late as well as a strong clubhouse presence. Dunn has played 108 career games at first, but he would be blocked at that position by Garciaparra and Loney.

klw
06-12-2007, 04:50 PM
My concern with all of the Dunn rumors of late is that do not appear to be any teams screaming out as a good fit. It would be best to have 2 or 3 teams competing in a way which could drive his value up.

My other thought is whether this series and tonight in particular will serve as auditions. Escobar for the Reds, Dunn for the Angels.

AmarilloRed
06-13-2007, 12:53 AM
I have mentioned on a number of occasions that it makes the most sense to pick up his option. If we can get an outfielder to replace his production(40 HR and 100 RBIs), fine. If not ,lets not take these trade rumors too seriously. It doesnt seem like any teams want to give fair trade value for Dunn. It doesnt hurt to listen to other clubs, but I dont see where trading Dunn will help the Reds.

reds44
06-13-2007, 02:28 AM
Woah, a Dunn trade seems to be closer then I had thought.

Forget about getting Gonzalez in the deal, I would rather call Votto up and stick him in LF. I'd rather let Dickerson roam CF then have Gonzalez, in fact.

eastkyred
06-13-2007, 08:47 AM
I have mentioned on a number of occasions that it makes the most sense to pick up his option. If we can get an outfielder to replace his production(40 HR and 100 RBIs), fine. If not ,lets not take these trade rumors too seriously. It doesnt seem like any teams want to give fair trade value for Dunn. It doesnt hurt to listen to other clubs, but I dont see where trading Dunn will help the Reds.

I don't think its other teams that have the unrealistic assessment of Dunn's value. I think it makes no sense to pick up his option.

AmarilloRed
06-13-2007, 01:35 PM
I just dont see where it makes any sense to not pick up the option unless you have someone to replace his production ready to take over. I thought Josh Hamilton might be able to earlier in the year, but he has not shown much power lately. If we could get a Gonzalez who could take over for Dunn, lets do it. I also think we should look at Votto in LF. I don't want to end up trading Dunn for a couple of marginal relievers like we did last year.13 million is a bargain compared to what teams were paying outfielders in the offseason last year.

eastkyred
06-13-2007, 02:46 PM
I just dont see where it makes any sense to not pick up the option unless you have someone to replace his production ready to take over. I thought Josh Hamilton might be able to earlier in the year, but he has not shown much power lately. If we could get a Gonzalez who could take over for Dunn, lets do it. I also think we should look at Votto in LF. I don't want to end up trading Dunn for a couple of marginal relievers like we did last year.13 million is a bargain compared to what teams were paying outfielders in the offseason last year.

It doesn't make any sense because the production Dunn gives the team is not worth 20% of our payroll next year. Oh yea, they also have to play defense too. A great defensive left fielder could have less offensive stats than Dunn and match his overall production.

bucksfan2
06-13-2007, 03:27 PM
It doesn't make any sense because the production Dunn gives the team is not worth 20% of our payroll next year. Oh yea, they also have to play defense too. A great defensive left fielder could have less offensive stats than Dunn and match his overall production.

It is obvious that we are on opposite sides of this spectrum on this Dunn debate. I don't agree with your belief that Dunn isn't worth 20% of the team's payroll. Using that logic since Hamilton is making the rookie minimum does that mean he should be making more becaues his value to the team is greater than his value to the payroll? Or do you look at Hamilton and say "its great that we have a guy who is this good that we will have cheap for years to come". Dunn is making what the market bears for a player with his skill set, maybe even below. Look at the contracts handed out last year and tell me that $13 million for Dunn next year is bad. It is important for a club like the reds to lock in their stars and hope that their pipeline is able to produce some impact players. A good mixture of young inexpensive players along with players entereing free agency is important. Oh and that $13 million that you save next year will probably net a Juan Pierre and Saarloos in free agency.

eastkyred
06-13-2007, 03:43 PM
It is obvious that we are on opposite sides of this spectrum on this Dunn debate. I don't agree with your belief that Dunn isn't worth 20% of the team's payroll. Using that logic since Hamilton is making the rookie minimum does that mean he should be making more becaues his value to the team is greater than his value to the payroll? Or do you look at Hamilton and say "its great that we have a guy who is this good that we will have cheap for years to come". Dunn is making what the market bears for a player with his skill set, maybe even below. Look at the contracts handed out last year and tell me that $13 million for Dunn next year is bad. It is important for a club like the reds to lock in their stars and hope that their pipeline is able to produce some impact players. A good mixture of young inexpensive players along with players entereing free agency is important. Oh and that $13 million that you save next year will probably net a Juan Pierre and Saarloos in free agency.

I don't think we are far apart in what we believe the makeup of the reds payroll should be. Your right, you have to take advantage of your youth that you have for cheap if you want to compete. The other side of that is maximizing your value on your big contracts. I think where you and I differ is our opinion of Dunn. I believe the reds can only afford a few big contracts for their everyday players. Right now those contracts are going to Dunn and Griffey. Griffey is alot better player than Dunn, and in a few years his contract will run out and he will probably retire. Look at the "franchise" type players on the other teams in our division. Dunn doesn't match up when you look at his overall game. I'm talking about players like C. Lee, L. Berkman, D. Lee, Pujols, J. Bay, P. Fielder. Let someone else pay Dunn 13-14 mil per year. In a few years, hopefully Hamilton will be the star that we want to give the big contract to. Maybe in 5 years it will be Bruce. Don't pay Dunn the big contract just because the Dodgers gave J. Pierre one and the Angels gave G. Mathews one. The $13 mil saved for the next few years could buy you another quality SP, or some REAL bullpen help(not 40 year old fat guys).

BLEEDS
06-13-2007, 07:23 PM
So, let me get this straight, if Adam Dunn would NOT strike-out say 100 more times, he would bat .350, have 175 RBI's, 69 HR's, and 150 Runs scored, have a .500 OBP, .750 SLG and a 1.25 OPS ?!?!

OR, is it because he SWINGS WITH POWER that he gets 40/100/100 every year and has a career .900 OPS?!?!?!

IF he consciously cut down on his K's, he would lose power - and Productivity.

He's a top 10/15 MLB-er when it comes to PRODUCTION - and that's WITH all his "Flaws". You guys want Barry Bonds on Steroids (literally); Triple Crown, Gold Glove, Leading the League in Steals. That's not AD. Poor us. Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper and Chris Denorfia - COMBINED - couldn't PRODUCE what AD does for us. You want a bunch of guys batting .270 and hitting 10 HR's a year on your team - you'll be the Pittsburgh Pirates soon enough.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Lockdwn11
06-13-2007, 08:14 PM
Top 10-15 ok I put some 30 names out there in no certain order. Now you tell me is Adam Dunn in the top 15? I can add some more if you want Adam Dunn is a good player but is far from the elite player some of you think he is




1. A Rodriguez

2. M Ordonez

3. V Guerrero

4. V Martinez

5. C Lee

6. C Utley

7. P Fielder

8. T Hunter

9. M Cabrera

10. J Hardy

11. J Morneau

12. T Hafner

13. M Holliday

14. J Bay

15. J Francoeur

16. J Willingham

17. G Sheffield

18. A Gonzalez SD

19. A Jones

20. D Ortiz

21. R Howard

22. M Teixeira

23. J Posada

24. A Pujols

25. C Crawford

26. C Delgado

27. J Guillen

28. Ken Griffey Jr.

29. Brandon Phillips

30. Todd Helton

kbrake
06-13-2007, 08:21 PM
You have derailed my friend.

Lockdwn11
06-13-2007, 08:26 PM
You have derailed my friend.

Have I well Adam Dunn is 43rd in the league in OPS.Old stats mean NOTHING in a contract year.Dunn isn't even the best player on his own team let alone the top 15 in all of Baseball.

kbrake
06-13-2007, 09:49 PM
He didnt say best in baseball he said most productive and yeah Dunn is more productive than:
Phillips
Griffey
Guillen
Posada
Gonzalez
Francouer
Hunter
Hardy
Fielder
Willingham
and maybe even Howard

If you want to look at 8 weeks this season and ignore the past 3 years thats fine, but numbers dont lie and Adam Dunn has been more productive then all those guys over the past 3 seasons. You really must have something personal agaisnt Dunn if you think some of those guys are more productive then he is.

Lockdwn11
06-13-2007, 10:07 PM
He didnt say best in baseball he said most productive and yeah Dunn is more productive than:
Phillips
Griffey
Guillen
Posada
Gonzalez
Francouer
Hunter
Hardy
Fielder
Willingham
and maybe even Howard

If you want to look at 8 weeks this season and ignore the past 3 years thats fine, but numbers dont lie and Adam Dunn has been more productive then all those guys over the past 3 seasons. You really must have something personal against Dunn if you think some of those guys are more productive then he is.

It's ok if you want to go back three years but why three why not ten why not two is it because that is where you need to go to get the number to support your opinion hell if you want to go back three years lets go back ten and then tell me Dunn is a better player then Griffey. I have nothing agianst Dunn(other then he sucks in the OF,strikeout more then anyone to ever play the game and the fact that his numbers have declined each of the past THREE YEARS plus he is due to make 14-15 mil whats not to like) I have said many times I think he is a good Player I just don't think he is the Baseball god you do.


P.S. with all the player you took off the list he is still not in your own top 15.

I(heart)Freel
06-13-2007, 10:13 PM
Here's my thing.

Every time someone says, where is the run production going to come from if we trade Dunn, it drives me batty.

It's as if the person saying this believes that Casper or perhaps the left fielder for my softball team is the one replacing him in a prime run production spot in the batting order. That is not the case.

Dunn usually gets a pretty decent spot in the order. Yes, he could be higher and lower for a lot of people on here. But he usually has a pretty good spot. I just think that if you replace Dunn with your next best run-producer you will still do pretty well. Will he "replace" Dunn's production? Well... honestly, there are some days I think that is absolutely so.

But let's say that next best guy doesn't replace him. Let's say he does ok. The reason you trade Dunn is because there are better ways to spend $13 million to help this ballclub.

Remember: Casper ain't the one replacing Dunn. It's Hamilton more. Or Hopper. Or Conine. Or Freel when he stops seeing stars and planets circling his noggin.

These guys aren't Dunn. But it is NOT replacing Dunn's numbers with zeroes, like some would have you believe.

11larkin11
06-13-2007, 10:48 PM
Dunn for Adenhart and/or Willits

Sounds good to me, pull the trigger, lol

BLEEDS
06-13-2007, 11:54 PM
Well, I was referring to OF-er's, you know where he plays - yeah I know we could put A-Rod in LF, probably cheaper than Dunn, but you know...

All I know is since he's been in the league he's like 3rd in HR's - behind Barry and Andruw Jones. He's top 10-15 in just about every other offensive category - RBI, R, BB, and yes, he leads the league in HR's, but not as much as you'd think... maybe averages 20-25 more per year than say a Jones, and his Slugging and OPS are in the upper echelons as well.

The guys who are at/near/above him - you won't find them for under $10M.

Find me someone who's at 30/100/80 and bats over .265 and I'll show you someone who could command $15-20M per year - and if he played in the NL it's even more remarkable. You can't count on one hand the NL guys who've had better consistent Power Numbers than Dunn over the past couple years.

You'd think they were growing on trees. You'd have to go over to the AL to find anyone in the RELATIVE ballpark, and then their number's are a bit inflated due to playing in the AL - you know where instead of a pitcher, they put in guys who actually HIT - usually 4/5/6 type hitters - and get on base to help the other player's inflate their stats.

I'm not saying he's irreplaceable, but definitely not cheaper. He's a proven commodity and he's in his prime. You can't get both for less, and with Jr on the downswing, you don't want to have to replace BOTH of those positions of power - you know they're both top 5 in HR's right now - in 2-3 years.

Unless we're planning on using the 13M on Dunn on a #3/#4 SP - and Milton's $9M on a LESSER graded OF-er, does this make any sense. I don't see any FA's in that price range that are going to compare, but then again I don't play X-Box or on-line Virtual GM computer games like some of you guys do, so I'm no expert.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

kbrake
06-14-2007, 06:27 AM
Remember: Casper ain't the one replacing Dunn. It's Hamilton more. Or Hopper. Or Conine. Or Freel when he stops seeing stars and planets circling his noggin.

These guys aren't Dunn. But it is NOT replacing Dunn's numbers with zeroes, like some would have you believe.


You replace Dunn with Conine or Hopper and it will be like you are replacing him with zero's. Again I like Hamilton alot, I just dont think you can bank on someone like him to replace Dunn when he hasnt even played a full season. I am not completely agaisnt trading him I just dont trust Wayne to do it. And I really dont trust him to spend that 13 million. I'm telling you guys hope your ready for more Castro's, Conine's, and Stanton's.

bucksfan2
06-14-2007, 08:43 AM
BLEEDS brings up a good point. You can say that Dunn's $13 million contract is an albatros but in reality it isn't. Free agency is free agency and this isn't you fathers market anymore. When you throw a guy like Dunn and his production onto the free agent market he will command right around $15 million/year. Its just the way the market is right now. So some people really want to replace Dunn with a minor leauge journeyman, a 41 year old first baseman, or a player whose recent head injury has led to doubts in my mind whether he will ever be a productive player anymore. Not to the fact that Josh Hamilton has shown (how about that running catch last night) that he is the CF of the future. I would be fine with moving Dunn if the reds had someone in the minors who could produce like Dunn but they dont. The reds have maybe 2 guys (Votto and Bruce) who look like they may be 100 rbi guys in their system. As bad as people proclaim that his defense is do you realize that Jr has one more error this season than Dunn?

I completly trust Wayne to trade Dunn and get value. The question is what kind of value does he want in order to trade Dunn. The "Trade" last season not only got the reds hopefully their closer of the future but also freed up some money to sign Arroyo and Harrang to long term contracts. If there is one thing I realize about Krivsky is that he does have a master plan.

eastkyred
06-14-2007, 09:37 AM
Go look at the Dodgers message board or any other team that we are being rumored to trade Dunn to. THEY DONT WANT HIM. Dunn supporting Reds fans have an overblown of Dunn. Other teams either don't want him, or they don't want to give anything away to get him. Dodger fans are alot more interested in Alex Rios than Adam Dunn. Is Alex Rios a top 15 player? His "value" to me, is equal to his demand. There isn't as much demand for Dunn as some people on here think there is.

Also, Dunn's defense is not comparable to Griffey's. Griffey is no longer an elite defensive player, but he is still a major league outfielder. Dunn is not. Saying Griffey has 4 errors and Dunn only has 3 is laughable. Dunn's defensive mistakes, which are almost every game, aren't always errors. The paths he takes on fly balls, missing the cutoff man, his well below average arm are all things that aren't necessarily errors. He has terrible instincts in the outfield. He cost us the first inning run last night by not picking the ball up off the bat when Figgins hit a single to left. It wasn't an error, and I know the sun was the reason he didn't pick it up, but he was the only one that misplayed a ball last night because of the sun. If he sees the ball off the bat, Figgins has a single and doesn't score. Occurances like these seem to be almost nightly.

Lockdwn11
06-14-2007, 10:57 AM
Lets just say that the Reds could trade Dunn to LAD and get Kemp in some kind of deal you guys don't think the Reds would be a better team with Kemp Hamilton and Griffey(until Bruce is ready) in the OF and use the extra cash on Pitching?

eastkyred
06-14-2007, 11:11 AM
Lets just say that the Reds could trade Dunn to LAD and get Kemp in some kind of deal you guys don't think the Reds would be a better team with Kemp Hamilton and Griffey(until Bruce is ready) in the OF and use the extra cash on Pitching?

I personally think they would be better. Most LA fans would rather have Kemp than Dunn as well. I'm not saying the deal is impossible, but I think the Reds would be getting the better end of it.

I'm sure someone will go through a bunch of blah, blah, blah about Dunn's numbers and Kemps numbers, but I think Kemp has the potential to be a much better all around player. Numbers don't always tell the story, and I've never seen a bigger example of that than Adam Dunn.

eastkyred
06-14-2007, 11:28 AM
So, let me get this straight, if Adam Dunn would NOT strike-out say 100 more times, he would bat .350, have 175 RBI's, 69 HR's, and 150 Runs scored, have a .500 OBP, .750 SLG and a 1.25 OPS ?!?!

OR, is it because he SWINGS WITH POWER that he gets 40/100/100 every year and has a career .900 OPS?!?!?!

IF he consciously cut down on his K's, he would lose power - and Productivity.

He's a top 10/15 MLB-er when it comes to PRODUCTION - and that's WITH all his "Flaws". You guys want Barry Bonds on Steroids (literally); Triple Crown, Gold Glove, Leading the League in Steals. That's not AD. Poor us. Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper and Chris Denorfia - COMBINED - couldn't PRODUCE what AD does for us. You want a bunch of guys batting .270 and hitting 10 HR's a year on your team - you'll be the Pittsburgh Pirates soon enough.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Doesn't production include defense? What about pitchers, are they productive? You think Dunn is one of the top 15 players in all of baseball? I think I could name 50 players in baseball that are better than Dunn. Someone started a poll of here a few days ago about who the best player on the reds was and I think Dunn was 4th behind Griffey, Phillips, and Hamilton. This poll didn't include pitchers, which would also put Dunn behind Harang. That puts him at 5th on the worst team in NL. That is definately debatable, but I don't think you'll find too many people who would have Dunn much higher than the 3rd best player on this team.

bounty37h
06-14-2007, 11:30 AM
Here's my thing.

Every time someone says, where is the run production going to come from if we trade Dunn, it drives me batty.

It's as if the person saying this believes that Casper or perhaps the left fielder for my softball team is the one replacing him in a prime run production spot in the batting order. That is not the case.

Dunn usually gets a pretty decent spot in the order. Yes, he could be higher and lower for a lot of people on here. But he usually has a pretty good spot. I just think that if you replace Dunn with your next best run-producer you will still do pretty well. Will he "replace" Dunn's production? Well... honestly, there are some days I think that is absolutely so.

But let's say that next best guy doesn't replace him. Let's say he does ok. The reason you trade Dunn is because there are better ways to spend $13 million to help this ballclub.

Remember: Casper ain't the one replacing Dunn. It's Hamilton more. Or Hopper. Or Conine. Or Freel when he stops seeing stars and planets circling his noggin.

These guys aren't Dunn. But it is NOT replacing Dunn's numbers with zeroes, like some would have you believe.

After reading this, I myself heart I heart Freel :)

eastkyred
06-14-2007, 11:40 AM
He didnt say best in baseball he said most productive.

I assume from this quote that you are agreeing that Dunn is definately not one of the best players in baseball, he's just more "productive" than alot of players that are better players than him. (I'm not sure I understand that) So the Reds should pay Dunn $13-15 mil per year, even though he probably isn't one of the top 30-50 best players in the league, but he is "productive". Dunn is a one trick pony. He has +++ power, and a decent, but declining, on base percentage. All other aspects of the game, he is well below average.

Lockdwn11
06-14-2007, 11:43 AM
Well, I was referring to OF-er's, you know where he plays - yeah I know we could put A-Rod in LF, probably cheaper than Dunn, but you know...

All I know is since he's been in the league he's like 3rd in HR's - behind Barry and Andruw Jones. He's top 10-15 in just about every other offensive category - RBI, R, BB, and yes, he leads the league in HR's, but not as much as you'd think... maybe averages 20-25 more per year than say a Jones, and his Slugging and OPS are in the upper echelons as well.

The guys who are at/near/above him - you won't find them for under $10M.

Find me someone who's at 30/100/80 and bats over .265 and I'll show you someone who could command $15-20M per year - and if he played in the NL it's even more remarkable. You can't count on one hand the NL guys who've had better consistent Power Numbers than Dunn over the past couple years.

You'd think they were growing on trees. You'd have to go over to the AL to find anyone in the RELATIVE ballpark, and then their number's are a bit inflated due to playing in the AL - you know where instead of a pitcher, they put in guys who actually HIT - usually 4/5/6 type hitters - and get on base to help the other player's inflate their stats.

I'm not saying he's irreplaceable, but definitely not cheaper. He's a proven commodity and he's in his prime. You can't get both for less, and with Jr on the downswing, you don't want to have to replace BOTH of those positions of power - you know they're both top 5 in HR's right now - in 2-3 years.

Unless we're planning on using the 13M on Dunn on a #3/#4 SP - and Milton's $9M on a LESSER graded OF-er, does this make any sense. I don't see any FA's in that price range that are going to compare, but then again I don't play X-Box or on-line Virtual GM computer games like some of you guys do, so I'm no expert.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Well you was Quoted as saying MLBers not LFer or OFers he isn't in the top 15 among OFers in OPS either.

Lockdwn11
06-14-2007, 11:52 AM
Doesn't production include defense? What about pitchers, are they productive? You think Dunn is one of the top 15 players in all of baseball? I think I could name 50 players in baseball that are better than Dunn. Someone started a poll of here a few days ago about who the best player on the reds was and I think Dunn was 4th behind Griffey, Phillips, and Hamilton. This poll didn't include pitchers, which would also put Dunn behind Harang. That puts him at 5th on the worst team in NL. That is definately debatable, but I don't think you'll find too many people who would have Dunn much higher than the 3rd best player on this team.

After watching V. Guerrero the last two game no one should have any doubt that Defense is included as production I mean how many runs did he save the LAA with his arm. Team just can't run on him at all. Josh Hamilton as well.How many runs did he save running down that ball in the gap or the throw to the plate the other night.

AmarilloRed
06-14-2007, 01:30 PM
It seems like a lot of people missed my point. I was saying that Adam Dunn is the most productive Red, not the most productive in the league. I would love it if Adam Dunn could hit.300 and drive in 130 runs. I know that wont happen, and I am satisfied with 90-100 rbis and the 40 hrs we will get from him. I would love it if he was a great outfielder, but he isnt. I think most people consider a players hitting to be production, not fielding.If marginal outfielders are getting 12-13 million a year in the offseason for substandard offensive production, Adam Dunn is worth that. If we can find a outfielder in the offseason with better defense and similar OFFENSIVE production, I wouldnt pick up his option. However,as Bleeds tells us , such a player would be 15-20 million. I dont think the real issue is Adam Dunns option. It is whether we can afford both Ken Griffey Jr and Adam Dunn on a small-market team like the Reds.

reds44
06-18-2007, 02:21 PM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AE/20070618/SPT05/706180343/



All these years, we've wondered what the Reds could do if Ken Griffey Jr. were healthy and hitting like he can. Now, sadly, we know.

Apparently, it wouldn't make any difference in the National League standings if Griffey were sharing a batting order with Babe Ruth and Ted Williams. Or Babe the pig and Ted the Kennedy. Whatever.

For most of April, the Reds were pretty decent. Griffey wasn't. The hand he broke over the winter wasn't quite right yet, and then there was that digestive condition that nobody can spell, followed by pleurisy, which nobody can define. He finished the month with one home run, a creaky bat and a nation of doubters.

Once he had exhausted the medical dictionary, Junior began to hit well enough to be returned to the third spot in the Cincinnati lineup. Not that there was lively competition for it. But upon settling there, even as the Reds reeked increasingly until they were the only sixth-place team in the game, he began to hit well enough to remind everyone how great a figure is in our midst, and has been through all the ailing seasons.

Over the last six of them, the former Player of the Decade - that was the decade before he got to Cincinnati - has averaged but 92 games a schedule. If he had played a reasonable norm of 142 during those difficult years, an extra 50 a pop, it would have added 300 games, roughly two seasons' worth, to his resume. At 45 homers per - he averaged 49 over his last six healthy years in Seattle - that would raise Griffey's career total by 90, which would put him with 671 at this moment, which would render ridiculous all this speculation about trading him.

As it stands, his value probably hasn't been better since he arrived back in his hometown. The $12.5 million he makes annually, through next year (there's a club option for 2009 at $16.5 million), doesn't seem so weighty when you consider that he suddenly stands second in the league in home runs - or at least he did until Adam Dunn, his buddy and running mate in trade rumors, clubbed a couple Sunday. And when you consider not only the power of Griffey's game, but the power of Griffey's name.

Suppose, though, that the Reds could manage to find a generous taker for their right fielder. Could they spend $12.5 million in a more prudent fashion? Or finally, at 37, in his eighth Cincinnati season, with a slimmer midsection and friskier legs, with the move away from center field, has Griffey become more precious to the Reds than anyone they could get for him?

It's a quandary occasioned expressly by his impressive hitting over an extended stretch now. And by the acrid sentiment that we've seen enough of this season.

If there was any remaining doubt as to which side of the counter Wayne Krivsky should stand on for the next six weeks, it was dispelled in the latest, squandered, dispiriting homestand; more specifically, by the gruesome pounding the home team took Sunday from the dreadful Texas Rangers, with the series at stake. The Reds persist in doing a few things well - hitting home runs being foremost among them - but not nearly well enough to overcome that which they do miserably, such as hit and pitch in the clutch. Clearly, they're a team on which the reconfiguring remains eminently unfinished.

So who goes? Dunn's recent hot streak can only abet Krivsky's reported efforts to trade him to a contender in pursuit of big hitting, but his contract is large and problematic - larger, by next year, and more problematic than Griffey's.

And what if Griffey, who has the right to veto any trade he's involved in, should desire to leave Cincinnati? Don't forget that, four months ago, he told a Seattle columnist, "My home's in Florida. I work in Cincinnati. That 19-year-old kid who's now 37 has a whole different opinion of people. I work in Cincinnati. That's it."

If Griffey would rather play in Los Angeles or Atlanta, do the Reds owe it to him to make a deal happen, if it's reasonable? And on the flip side, does he owe it to them to do the same, if Krivsky finds a compatible buyer?

Sunday, all Griffey would say on the subject was, "I can't control what happens upstairs. I'm employee No. 3. That's the furthest thing from my mind right now."

It's likely not, however, the furthest thing from Krivsky's. The GM hasn't said as much, and he wouldn't, but could the Reds actually divest themselves of both their sluggers? Should they?

For Dunn, the time appears to be right, if not the circumstances.

For Griffey, it's the other way around. The way he's going, he could have his 600th home run before the Reds' awful season is over. If they should trade him now, who would there be to watch on the days Homer Bailey isn't pitching? At long last, Cincinnati is savoring a sweet glimpse of the superstar that Seattle saw before the turn of the century.

It's ironic, in that light, that Griffey will have found his old form just in time for the Reds' rare series this week in western Washington. He didn't want to talk about the celebrated revisit, but when asked on Father's Day whether he would welcome a more permanent return to the site of his youthful glory, the illustrious outfielder did have one provocative remark.

"What's their record?" he asked.



It would be such a sort-sighted typical Reds move to deal Dunn and not Griffey,

We all love seeing a healthy Griffey now and what he can do when he is healthy. However, he is 37 and hasn't had an injury free year in how many years? We'd all love to see him hit 600 in a Reds uniform, but at what price? If there are teams out there willing to give you something for him why don't you trade him? The odds of him staying healthy aren't good. The odds of him being here after 08 aren't good. The odds of him being on a playoff team here isn't good. Why do you keep him? To put butts in the fans in the seats this September? Go ahead. See where that gets you.

Then there is Adam Dunn. The 27 year old outfielder who people love to point out flaws. He's a bad defender. He strikes out too much. Then look at the positives. He goes out there everyday and plays. He never goes on the DL. He's a lock to produce over 200 runs. Did I mention he was 27 not 37? Dunn is a guy that you could lock up for 4 years through his prime, and stick him in LF and have 200 runs every year. He'll e expensive, but show me a cheap guy that creates 200 runs every year. An offensive core of Dunn, Encarnacion, and Phillips is not a bad start. Then you have 3 guys in Hamilton, Votto, and Bruce who if continue to improve could all be studs.

There aren't many things I don't want to see the Reds do. If they trade both Junior and Dunn, free up abunch of money, and get prospects in return I am fine with that. If the deal Junior, re-sign Dunn and go from there I will be fine with that. However if they trade Dunn and keep Junior I will be upset. It will have accomplished nothing.

In the end, my breath is probably wasted. There is no hope for Adam Dunn with the Reds. A man made out to be a scape goat. A man who's flaws are always thrown in his face. He's a unique player, but a good one. Reds fans don't appreciate what they have in Adam Dunn.

durl
06-18-2007, 02:40 PM
In the end, my breath is probably wasted. There is no hope for Adam Dunn with the Reds. A man made out to be a scape goat. A man who's flaws are always thrown in his face. He's a unique player, but a good one. Reds fans don't appreciate what they have in Adam Dunn.

Dunn may be that player that you have to give up in order to get good pitching. I believe a lot of people see Dunn as a valuable player, but his trade value might be a better return for the Reds. If the Reds could get a strong middle reliever and a young, promising arm in return, I could see trading him.

The Reds need scoring, but they need pitching more.

HokieRed
06-18-2007, 02:56 PM
I hope all the Hamilton enthusiasts are right, but IMHO it's way too early to make any call about Hamilton's long term role on this or any other team. I just don't think there's a long enough record of performance yet by which to assess him. He's a very talented kid but he's not yet an established player by any means. So let's go cautiously there when we start figuring out what he can replace etc.