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View Full Version : Hamilton and Coffey up, Wise and Salmon down



Danny Serafini
06-04-2007, 02:18 PM
From Trent's blog:


Prior to tomorrow night’s game in St. Louis, the Reds are expected to return from a rehabilitation assignment, recall from Class AAA Louisville and reinstate from the 15-day disabled list OF Josh Hamilton and recall from Louisville RHP Todd Coffey.

They will take the roster spots of RHP Brad Salmon, who today was optioned to Louisville, and OF Dewayne Wise, who has been outrighted to Louisville.

Since May 22 Hamilton has been on the 15-day disabled list with gastroenteritis. He hit safely in all 6 of rehab appearances for the Bats (8-24, .333, 1 2b, 4hr, 6rbi, 2sb). When he went on the DL Hamilton was hitting .261 with 8 HR and 18 RBI in 37 games for the Reds.

Coffey began the season with the Reds and went 1-1, 4.94 in 26 relief appearances before he was optioned to Louisville on May 24. He did not allow a run in 6 appearances for the Bats (5.2ip, 3h, 1bb, 9k, .158oba).

Salmon went 0-1, 4.50 in 11 relief apps for the Reds.

Wise appeared in 5 games for the Reds.

KronoRed
06-04-2007, 02:24 PM
Salmon for Coffey?

WHY?

M2
06-04-2007, 02:26 PM
Salmon for Coffey?

WHY?

Because Wayne Krivsky is bullpen challenged?

Johnny Footstool
06-04-2007, 02:27 PM
Salmon for Coffey?

WHY?

Three catchers. You can't waste a roster spot on a bullpen arm -- giving 4 ABs a week to a third catcher is much more important.

Reds Fanatic
06-04-2007, 02:28 PM
Salmon for Coffey?

WHY?
Makes no sense. What is even worse is Majewski with an ERA of 15.00 and a WHIP of 3.00 stays.

RichRed
06-04-2007, 02:28 PM
Salmon for Coffey?

WHY?

I know, just once I want to read about a Reds' transaction and think, "Everything about that seems smart."

Glad to see Hamilton back up though.

BRM
06-04-2007, 02:29 PM
Is there any hope of seeing a good bullpen anytime soon in Cincinnati?

pedro
06-04-2007, 02:29 PM
Salmon for Coffey?

WHY?

I'm not totally sold on Salmon. He really needs to get his control straightened out.

Although I'm not sure it really matters who is in the pen because Narron is as poor a BP handler as I've ever seen.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 02:33 PM
From Trent's blog:


Prior to tomorrow night’s game in St. Louis, the Reds are expected to return from a rehabilitation assignment, recall from Class AAA Louisville and reinstate from the 15-day disabled list OF Josh Hamilton and recall from Louisville RHP Todd Coffey.

They will take the roster spots of RHP Brad Salmon, who today was optioned to Louisville, and OF Dewayne Wise, who has been outrighted to Louisville.

Obviously, activating Hamilton and sending out Wise was a no-brainer. Likewise, it's probably time to get Coffey back with the big squad, and I can *live* with Salmon going out. However, there is something that irritates, and worries, me in this scenario (and it's not simply about Brad Salmon, but about the overall principles guiding our future bullpen moves).

Salmon's 4.50ERA over the span of his 10 outings, may seem fairly pedestrian, but not necessarily so for the first 10 games of your rookie season, and it still landed him in better ERA position than 5 members of our current BP. Likewise, Salmon was possibly more effective than his 4.50ERA, control issues the other night, indicate. He struck out 10 batters in his 10IPs of relief; he only allowed 5 hits during that span, and still managed to hold opposing batters to a .147BAA while posting an exceptional 1.10 WHIP. And we all know the particulars that several of his runs allowed actually came at the hands of lesser relievers allowing inherited runners to score. Maybe his one downfall was bouts of wildness, but even so, those were pretty isolated, and in one instance came against an ump with a perpetually moving strikezone that the staff railed against.

So, what's the message when you send out a young guy who is K-ing a batter per inning, and who is keeping opposing batters off the basepaths, even as you continue to protect the moribund likes of Stanton, Majewski, Santos et al? It sends a message to me that our GM isn't about developing a plan for the future, nor about making the 'hard' decisions of cutting ties with worthless vets in favor of youth development. That's another reason that the timing of a potential Bailey move is so suspect, as no other pieces of the 'future' are yet being assembled, nor are their impediments being removed.

Salmon should have stayed, IMO.

M2
06-04-2007, 02:34 PM
I'm not totally sold on Salmon. He really needs to get his control straightened out.

I think that's something he needs to work on in the majors though. He only had one BB in 11 IP in Louisville. He's going to need some time to adjust, but if there's one thing the Reds have got right now, it's time.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 02:35 PM
Cry no tears for Salmon. He earned that demotion with walks and Coffey has pitched brilliantly in AAA. If Coffey goes back to the way he was pitching before the demotion then I'd say it's time to start dipping into AA

pedro
06-04-2007, 02:38 PM
I think that's something he needs to work on in the majors though. He only had one BB in 11 IP in Louisville. He's going to need some time to adjust, but if there's one thing the Reds have got right now, it's time.

Not that I don't agree with you but with Narron at the helm it's just not going to happen. Narron's just too quick to bury guys and not get them enough regular work to be effective when they do pitch. And by god, if they are lucky enough to be effective then Narron will ride them into the ground.

BRM
06-04-2007, 02:39 PM
I'm sure glad Wayne was able to find a way to keep Majewski and Stanton on the roster.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 02:39 PM
So, what's the message when you send out a young guy K-ing a batter per inning, and who is keeping opposing batters off the basepaths, even as you continue to protect the moribund likes of Stanton, Majewski, Santos et al? It sends a message to me that our GM isn't about developing a plan for the future, nor about making the 'hard' decisions of cutting ties with worthless vets in favor of youth development.

The message is "you better throw more strikes if you expect to be a big league pitcher, son."

Do veterans get a little extra rope? You bet. That's how the system is set up in baseball. Nothing new about that or unique to this organization. What was stupid was signing guys like Stanton or Majewski (trade) in the first place.

pedro
06-04-2007, 02:41 PM
I do think teams tend to not trust pitchers whose K totals are the product of raw power and wildness rather than good location and movement coupled with power.

The_jbh
06-04-2007, 02:41 PM
I'm a little upset that Salmon got sent down but assuming Stanton's not going anywhere who else would u send down?

I'm not willing to cut bait on Maj after one batter last night... Santos is the long reliever... no one else has his stamina besides Saarloos (who id rather have in that role but thats another thread)

The three catchers doesn't bother me since we dont have to suffer with valentin behind the plate... atleast until Freel comes back which would force a decison on hopper or a 3rd catcher...

Coffey earned a right to come back.. hopefully narron won't abuse him

Stormy
06-04-2007, 02:41 PM
Cry no tears for Salmon. He earned that demotion with walks and Coffey has pitched brilliantly in AAA. If Coffey goes back to the way he was pitching before the demotion then I'd say it's time to start dipping into AA

I'd like to see you support that. Salmon's numbers indicate otherwise, as he went 7 appearances without walking a single batter prior to Friday's 2 walk outing. Holding opponents to a line of 10IP 5 Hits 6BB 10K in your first 10 MLB relief appearances, is nothing to scoff at - especially in this bullpen.

He did his job (poorly defined as his usage was), and he probably did it better than anyone else in that bullpen aside from Weathers, over the past month. He's gone because it's easier to move a guy with options, than it is to emphasize your mistakes with Stanton and Majik, or to cut Santos loose from his long reliever role.

Ron Madden
06-04-2007, 02:42 PM
I'd rather have Coffey and Salmon in the pen than the likes of Stanton and Majewski.

It dosen't really matter though with Narron's mismanagement of the bullpen.

BRM
06-04-2007, 02:43 PM
Salmon had gone 7 straight appearances without issuing a walk going into Friday night's game. Maybe he was making progress? Maybe Friday was just one bad outing? He struggled with walks when he was first called up but he had been able to right the ship somewhat shortly afterwards.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 02:45 PM
I do think teams tend to not trust pitchers whose K totals are the product of raw power and wildness rather than good location and movement coupled with power.

Well, you show me the 6-7 bullpen guys we have who couple their good location and movement with power, and we'll continue going to them rather than considering unrefined guys like Salmon. ;)

pedro
06-04-2007, 02:49 PM
Well, you show me the 6-7 bullpen guys we have who couple their good location and movement with power, and we'll continue going to them rather than considering unrefined guys like Salmon. ;)

The Reds just don't have them. TMBS, right or wrong most teams seem to go with guys that have some idea where the ball is going for fear that guys that are wild are just one bad pitch from a 3 run weaver. That's how guys like Todd Jones and David Weathers end up having such long careers IMO.

remdog
06-04-2007, 02:49 PM
I keep trying to find something that makes sense with Krivsky & Kompany, I really do. But everytime I find a positive it's offset by a negative.

Hamilton for Wise. No-brainer, easy positive.

Coffey up. Easy positive.

Salmon down while Majewski comtinues to implode. :bang:

There's the old saw about, 'Plan your work, work your plan'. Right now the Reds seem to have no plan and are simply working with the idea that making changes just to make changes means you might get lucky.

Rem

OldXOhio
06-04-2007, 02:50 PM
I know, just once I want to read about a Reds' transaction and think, "Everything about that seems smart."



Hamilton up, Wise down?

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 02:55 PM
Hamilton up, Wise down?

Hard to complain about that--but shoes come in pairs--even ugly ones.

pedro
06-04-2007, 02:56 PM
I keep trying to find something that makes sense with Krivsky & Kompany, I really do. But everytime I find a positive it's offset by a negative.

Hamilton for Wise. No-brainer, easy positive.

Coffey up. Easy positive.

Salmon down while Majewski comtinues to implode. :bang:

There's the old saw about, 'Plan your work, work your plan'. Right now the Reds seem to have no plan and are simply working with the idea that making changes just to make changes means you might get lucky.

Rem


I think it has more to do with hording assets in the hope that they can re-build some value in them rather than maximizing the talent on the 25 man roster.

Chip R
06-04-2007, 02:57 PM
I think we're calling up/keeping the wrong guys. EE, Salmon, Majewski, Coffey and Hamilton all dominated AAA but have had their struggles up here. Either the gap between AAA and the majors is Grand Canyonesque or the LOU coaches should be up in the majors. ;)

RichRed
06-04-2007, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichRed
I know, just once I want to read about a Reds' transaction and think, "Everything about that seems smart."


Hamilton up, Wise down?

That's why I was careful to use the word everything.

Hamilton up? Good.

Wise down? Good.

Coffey up? Good (I think).

Salmon down? Bad.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 02:59 PM
I think it has more to do with hording assets in the hope that they can re-build some value in them rather than maximizing the talent on the 25 man roster.

Normally I would agree with you. But even a cursory glance at Majewski right now shows that he'll never even reach his levels of mediocrity that he achieved in Washington. That pitcher (who wasn't all that great to begin with) is gone. (And yes, I saw him pitch for the Reds the other night on TV; plus I'd seen him pitch a ton for DC; so yes, I can compare them to some extent--Maj is even WORSE than he was).

pedro
06-04-2007, 03:00 PM
I think we're calling up/keeping the wrong guys. EE, Salmon, Majewski, Coffey and Hamilton all dominated AAA but have had their struggles up here. Either the gap between AAA and the majors is Grand Canyonesque or the LOU coaches should be up in the majors. ;)

I think at this point you've got to give Krivsky a little credit for the handling of EE. It certainly looks to have worked.

oneupper
06-04-2007, 03:02 PM
Right now you have 6 guys fighting for three BP spots:

Coffey, Salmon, Saarloos, McBeth, Maj, and Cout.

Weathers, Stanton (contract), Santos (long guy) and Burton (Rule V) appear to have their spots safe barring any trades.

BTW, someone else is going to have to go down to make room for a starter.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-04-2007, 03:05 PM
Stanton's leverage for staying on the roster is his hideous contract.

Majewski's leverage for staying on the roster is an attempt to justify a hideous trade.

Coffey? Salmon? What's the difference? What can Coffey add that Salmon cannot (and vise versa)?

They both should be in the 'pen slong with Pelland, Medlock, and Guevara. That and Homer should stay in AAA until September at the earliest.

Again, it's not rocket science, Wayne. At this point, the logic behind some of Wayne's decisions are on par with those of DanO. Scary.

pedro
06-04-2007, 03:08 PM
Normally I would agree with you. But even a cursory glance at Majewski right now shows that he'll never even reach his levels of mediocrity that he achieved in Washington. That pitcher (who wasn't all that great to begin with) is gone. (And yes, I saw him pitch for the Reds the other night on TV; plus I'd seen him pitch a ton for DC; so yes, I can compare them to some extent--Maj is even WORSE than he was).

Majewski just seems incredibly snake bit right now. It's not like the balls are being hit hard off of him. In any case I still think he can be marginally effective but I would prefer that he worked through that in Louisville rather than Cincinnati and at this point I think it's worked into his head so much that I'm not sure he'll ever be of any value to the Reds. As soon as they cut him though he'll end up somewhere else, get his head straight, a be an ok pitcher again IMO.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 03:11 PM
Majewski just seems incredibly snake bit right now. It's not like the balls are being hit hard off of him. In any case I still think he can be marginally effective but I would prefer that he worked through that in Louisville rather than Cincinnati and at this point I think it's worked into his head so much that I'm not sure he'll ever be of any value to the Reds. As soon as they cut him though he'll end up somewhere else, get his head straight, a be an ok pitcher again IMO.

His pitches have no movement, no life right now. It could be mechanical (he looks like he's guiding his pitches more than he used to), but I don't know, the lack of movement on his fastball is troubling.

Chip R
06-04-2007, 03:13 PM
I think at this point you've got to give Krivsky a little credit for the handling of EE. It certainly looks to have worked.


He sure looks like a different player than he looked before he was optioned. I don't know what they were telling him down there but it's made all the difference in the world. I was half-joking when I said that the LOU staff should come up here but the difference in EE is striking. You were one of the few people that supported Wayne's decision. You were saying that it looked like he was joyless out there. To me, it looks that now he's relaxed and having fun out there. Would you agree with that?

pedro
06-04-2007, 03:14 PM
He sure looks like a different player than he looked before he was optioned. I don't know what they were telling him down there but it's made all the difference in the world. I was half-joking when I said that the LOU staff should come up here but the difference in EE is striking. You were one of the few people that supported Wayne's decision. You were saying that it looked like he was joyless out there. To me, it looks that now he's relaxed and having fun out there. Would you agree with that?


I think he's looked fabulous since coming back up. Both in the field and at the plate.

registerthis
06-04-2007, 03:18 PM
I wish I could understand the logic behind these moves, but in the end I simply find them baffling.

Like everyone else has stated, bringing up Hamilton was a no-brainer. And Coffey likely deserved to be brought back up as well.

But this business of keeping guys on the roster for no apparent reason other than the fact that they're vets and their salaries are higher just needs to stop. I don't care how it is spun, there's simply no excusable explanation for sending down a Brad Salmon yet keeping a Stanton or a Majewski. It's clearly not performance related, and it's clearly nothing to do with any type of long-term plan for the team. So, what is it then? Did Krivsky have a premonition that they would suddenly start producing at an acceptable level?

The three-headed catching monster is another issue altogether, but I just can't help but wonder about the message that is being sent to players like Salmon who come up and ostensibly do their jobs, yet find themselves on the Louisville shuttle while veteran players with far inferior numbers are allowed to stay.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:18 PM
I'd like to see you support that. Salmon's numbers indicate otherwise, as he went 7 appearances without walking a single batter prior to Friday's 2 walk outing. Holding opponents to a line of 10IP 5 Hits 6BB 10K in your first 10 MLB relief appearances, is nothing to scoff at - especially in this bullpen.

He did his job (poorly defined as his usage was), and he probably did it better than anyone else in that bullpen aside from Weathers, over the past month. He's gone because it's easier to move a guy with options, than it is to emphasize your mistakes with Stanton and Majik, or to cut Santos loose from his long reliever role.


You pretty well supported it for me. He was given a (rare) chance to pitch in a meaningful situation. He merely had to protect a 4 run lead in the 7th inning. He blew it. He was all over the place. Mechanics screwed up. Numerous visits from the catcher, pitching coach and finally Narron and he could not correct it. That blows Narron's confidence in him and when you no longer have the manager's confidence, you're gone. Given the shaky nature of this pen he'll get another chance but for now he goes to AAA. These decisions are not made on numbers and stats. They're made on eyeballs and Narron didn't like what he saw on Friday and I can't blame him.

I agree with your last sentence and that kind of answers why he's gone as well.

VR
06-04-2007, 03:18 PM
What is the status of Bill Bray? I haven't heard a peep for about a month...he's got to be close?

I really expected to open RZ today and see that Narron was finally let go after another implosion at his hands yesterday. If not that, at least word that Stanton had been DFA'd. Or Castro. Or Moeller.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 03:19 PM
His pitches have no movement, no life right now. It could be mechanical (he looks like he's guiding his pitches more than he used to), but I don't know, the lack of movement on his fastball is troubling.

True. He has absolutely no action on that fastball. It's like he's throwing a dart. And I completely disagree with Pedro, in that, while a few surrendered hits have been of the seeing eye variety, most have been line drives coming off opposing bats (including many of the outs he's eventually recorded). Just because they haven't been of the HR/EBH variety hasn't made him any less hittable.

I'll take a guy with some wildness (Salmon) who can consistently miss bats, over a guy who never surrenders a walk but is basically pitching glorified batting practice, which Majewski has been allowed to do during his entire tenure with us. Looking at the parade of 'pitch to contact' veterans Wayne has paraded through this bullpen in the past 2 years, it's scary to think what his protype reliever might be.

registerthis
06-04-2007, 03:21 PM
These decisions are not made on numbers and stats. They're made on eyeballs

That's precisely the problem.

And if you're going to jettison a player based upon one poor outing in a pressure situation, any defense of Stanton's, Majewski's and Santos's place on the roster just fell out the window.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 03:22 PM
I think he's looked fabulous since coming back up. Both in the field and at the plate.

He's been brilliant afield, and at the plate, and it appears he has regained some previously lacking focus and enthusiasm. Credit goes to Krivsky for pulling the right string, if that is what helped affect the change.

Reds Fanatic
06-04-2007, 03:22 PM
What is the status of Bill Bray? I haven't heard a peep for about a month...he's got to be close?

I really expected to open RZ today and see that Narron was finally let go after another implosion at his hands yesterday. If not that, at least word that Stanton had been DFA'd. Or Castro. Or Moeller.
Bray was supposed to throw a game in extended spring training yesterday. I did not hear how that went. So he is still probably at least a few weeks away.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:25 PM
I don't care how it is spun, there's simply no excusable explanation for sending down a Brad Salmon yet keeping a Stanton or a Majewski.

Guys like Stanton and Majewski should not be resting easy. They could be the next to go. Guys like Bray, Homer and maybe Guardado could be back anyday now.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:28 PM
That's precisely the problem.

And if you're going to jettison a player based upon one poor outing in a pressure situation, any defense of Stanton's, Majewski's and Santos's place on the roster just fell out the window.

Those guys may be gone as well eventually but the team has more invested in them so they're given more rope

Stormy
06-04-2007, 03:28 PM
These decisions are not made on numbers and stats. They're made on eyeballs and Narron didn't like what he saw on Friday and I can't blame him.

Well, you certainly can't manage a rebuilding, youthful ballclub if you have no tolerance for bumps in the road from youngsters. Every rookie in history has had bouts of wildness, and moments of mechanical dysfunction. I think you have to look at the previous 7 appearances without a single walk, rather than upon a single outing consisting of 2 walks in Coors Field. By that same token, Coutlangus looked even worse, in a far more meaningful situation, walking 3 consecutive batters over the weekend; Majewski hasn't retired 3 batters in order since the signing of the Magna Carta; and guys like Stanton and Santos are serving up EBHs like they're going out of style...

I don't disagree that Salmon looked rough the other night, nor that Jerry and Krivsky used that as a rationale (along with his option status) to send him out... I'm just pointing out why it's utterly inconsistent.

Always Red
06-04-2007, 03:29 PM
I'm fine with Majewski and Stanton, as long as we can also keep finding a way to keep Castro and Moeller in the lineup at the same time...:(

Seriously, Salmon going back down for a while will be OK; he'll be back. This team needs to find out if Majewski and Stanton are worth anything to anyone else, so they're both going to be pitching for a while longer.

I'd love to see McBeth pitch. My worry about our near-future bullpen is that McBeth (from what I've heard), Salmon, Coffey, and Burton all have similar stuff- they all look kind of the same, and very mediocre similarity at this point, IMO. None of them know how to keep a hitter off balance. At least McBeth has a change-up (or rumor that he does, anyway).

I think Bray will be back, Coutlangus probably will go back down at some point, Weathers will be traded, Santos released, Guardado probably will not make it back up throwing less than 80mph, and Stanton either traded or released (ouch on that contract...).

BRM
06-04-2007, 03:30 PM
What is the status of Bill Bray? I haven't heard a peep for about a month...he's got to be close?


From today's Enquirer...



BRAY UPDATE: Left-hander Bill Bray pitched one inning in an extended spring training game in Sarasota on Saturday. He threw 14 pitches and felt fine. Bray, rehabbing all season from a broken left index finger, had to be returned from his rehab assignment with Single-A Sarasota because of shoulder stiffness.

registerthis
06-04-2007, 03:31 PM
Those guys may be gone as well eventually but the team has more invested in them so they're given more rope

I don't doubt that for a second, but it's a terrible way to rebuild a franchise.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:32 PM
Just because there's more dead weight to move off this roster doesn't mean that these are bad moves. I think these moves make sense and I think we all agree this doesn't "fix" anything. I'd like to see if Coffey is back and I'd love to get Josh back in the starting lineup. Due to Salmon's recent performance, his inexperience, meager salary and options he is the logical one to go for now.

KoryMac5
06-04-2007, 03:34 PM
The message is "you better throw more strikes if you expect to be a big league pitcher, son."

Do veterans get a little extra rope? You bet. That's how the system is set up in baseball. Nothing new about that or unique to this organization. What was stupid was signing guys like Stanton or Majewski (trade) in the first place.

Majewski, Stanton, and Santos get enough rope to hang themselves over and over and over again.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:35 PM
I'd love to see Medlock pitch. My worry about our near-future bullpen is that Medlock (from what I've heard), Salmon, Coffey, and Burton all have similar stuff

Last I checked Medlock had a K/BB ratio of about 42/3. That's not similar to Burton or Salmon who at times have no idea where the ball's going. I too am anxious to see Medlock

Red Leader
06-04-2007, 03:36 PM
Just because there's more dead weight to move off this roster doesn't mean that these are bad moves. I think these moves make sense and I think we all agree this doesn't "fix" anything. I'd like to see if Coffey is back and I'd love to get Josh back in the starting lineup. Due to Burton's recent performance, his inexperience, meager salary and options he is the logical one to go for now.

Burton? Burton's a Rule V guy. He has no options. He goes back to the A's if we let him go.

edabbs44
06-04-2007, 03:41 PM
I wish I could understand the logic behind these moves, but in the end I simply find them baffling.

Like everyone else has stated, bringing up Hamilton was a no-brainer. And Coffey likely deserved to be brought back up as well.

But this business of keeping guys on the roster for no apparent reason other than the fact that they're vets and their salaries are higher just needs to stop. I don't care how it is spun, there's simply no excusable explanation for sending down a Brad Salmon yet keeping a Stanton or a Majewski. It's clearly not performance related, and it's clearly nothing to do with any type of long-term plan for the team. So, what is it then? Did Krivsky have a premonition that they would suddenly start producing at an acceptable level?

The three-headed catching monster is another issue altogether, but I just can't help but wonder about the message that is being sent to players like Salmon who come up and ostensibly do their jobs, yet find themselves on the Louisville shuttle while veteran players with far inferior numbers are allowed to stay.

The main reason is that giving Stanton or Majewski their walking papers would make Wayne look bad.

As if he could look any worse.

M2
06-04-2007, 03:42 PM
Last I checked Medlock had a K/BB ratio of about 42/3. That's not similar to Burton or Salmon who at times have no idea where the ball's going. I too am anxious to see Medlock

Salmon's at 14/1 in AAA, the exact same ratio as Medlock.

registerthis
06-04-2007, 03:43 PM
Just because there's more dead weight to move off this roster doesn't mean that these are bad moves.

Salmon wasn't "dead weight". I think the argument being presented is that guys like Stanton and Maj are bringing nothing to this team right now--they should be the first to go, not the ones cleaning up after the party is over.

Guys like Salmon, Coutlangus, Medlock et al. are the future of this organization. This year is a wash, so it would seem to make sense to give those players plenty of opportunities to prove themselves. Wasting innings on pitchers like Stanton and Santos--guys who may not be here in July much less 2-3 years from now--is simply that: a waste.

No one's claiming that Salmon is the second coming of Dennis Eckersly. But what it comes down to is: what kind of team is Wayne Krivsky building for next year? What are the components going to be? I'd venture that 1/3 - 1/2 of the current roster may be gone by this time next year. That being the case, and with the Reds shut out of the playoffs yet again, I simply can't find ANY rationale for keeping the aformentioned vets around. Keeping them simply because they're eating up salary seems an awful lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:48 PM
Burton? Burton's a Rule V guy. He has no options. He goes back to the A's if we let him go.


Thanks for the correction! I meant Salmon. My mistake

remdog
06-04-2007, 03:51 PM
I think it has more to do with hording assets in the hope that they can re-build some value in them rather than maximizing the talent on the 25 man roster.

I considered that and I hope you're correct because that's the only rational that seems to work.

Having said that I see little or no way that they are going to rebuild Majewski into anything worthwhile. Yesterday he was lucky to get the 3rd out when he came into the ball game. The next inning three straight hitters smoked his stuff. (shrug)

I'd have kept Salmon up and optioned (if he has them) Majewski or DFA'd him. I understand that Krivsky doesn't want to admit defeat on the trade but there comes time when it's smart to cut your losses and move on.

Rem

westofyou
06-04-2007, 03:53 PM
11 pitches an outing and only pitching in losses won't tell us much about the guy. That said, options are an easy way to say see ya down river.

But then again I wish that Narron had left Majewski in with bases juiced just so we could see that was going to unfold.

Sea Ray
06-04-2007, 03:55 PM
Salmon wasn't "dead weight". I think the argument being presented is that guys like Stanton and Maj are bringing nothing to this team right now--they should be the first to go, not the ones cleaning up after the party is over.

Guys like Salmon, Coutlangus, Medlock et al. are the future of this organization. This year is a wash, so it would seem to make sense to give those players plenty of opportunities to prove themselves. Wasting innings on pitchers like Stanton and Santos--guys who may not be here in July much less 2-3 years from now--is simply that: a waste.



I see your point but in my mind dead weight is someone who can't be trusted to pitch in anything but mop up duty.

I agree with your philosophy in rebuilding. If we don't get to that sort of roster by mid August then something's wrong. I'm willing to give WK a couple months to jettison his past mistakes (Stanton, Maj etc)

oneupper
06-04-2007, 03:58 PM
But then again I wish that Narron had left Majewski in with bases juiced just so we could see that was going to unfold.

Me, too. But Narron wasn't very respectful of my wishes yesterday. :(

M2
06-04-2007, 03:58 PM
But then again I wish that Narron had left Majewski in with bases juiced just so we could see that was going to unfold.

It could have been spectacular.

remdog
06-04-2007, 04:00 PM
He sure looks like a different player than he looked before he was optioned. I don't know what they were telling him down there but it's made all the difference in the world. I was half-joking when I said that the LOU staff should come up here but the difference in EE is striking. You were one of the few people that supported Wayne's decision. You were saying that it looked like he was joyless out there. To me, it looks that now he's relaxed and having fun out there. Would you agree with that?

Actually, from an ability/physical sense EE looks very similar to the way he looked the week before he was optioned. He was driving the ball well that week and a few of them were starting to fall in. I don't think L'ville had anything to do with his improved BA.

As far as the way he looked, he looked 'joyless' because Narron was making him a scapegoat and the pressure was building that if he made a mistake he would be sent out. Now, he's back and the same thing could happen but at least that doomsday atmosphere has been relieved. That's the only thing that changed IMO. And I'm still of the opinion that Jerry is not the guy to manage this kid. (You can include the rest of the Reds in that statement too. ;)

Rem

westofyou
06-04-2007, 04:07 PM
It could have been spectacular.

The Tire Fire theory is going to have to take at some point, you're going to have to sit back and let what's going to burn burn itself out or flame in a way that is stunning as well as paradigm shifting in nature. That should apply to everyone in the BP not named David Weathers.

Eric_Davis
06-04-2007, 04:11 PM
I think that's something he needs to work on in the majors though. He only had one BB in 11 IP in Louisville. He's going to need some time to adjust, but if there's one thing the Reds have got right now, it's time.

Year1: 86IP;102H; 11HR; 54BB; 64K; 6.49ERA; 1.81WHIP
Year2: 44IP; 50H; 6HR; 16BB; 28K; 4.74ERA; 1.51WHIP

The difference in levels from AAA to the Majors is the biggest difference of them all. You can't learn how to pitch in the Majors by pitching in AAA. You're absolutely right about Salmon not being able to learn how to gain control at the Major League level by pitching in AAA. Coaches and Management all know this, too, and will give younger pitchers some slack, especially the ones they think have a brighter future ahead of them like Coffey, too. They have a lot of confidence that Coffey will be a very good reliever in the Majors and this move is more about Coffey than it is about Salmon. I'm not saying this to you, M2, but just using your quote as an example that we, as fans have to allow younger pitchers the opportunity to learn through failure at the Major League level.

Those 2 years I put up there are Johan Santana's first two in Minnesota.

Those

oneupper
06-04-2007, 04:18 PM
The Tire Fire theory is going to have to take at some point, you're going to have to sit back and let what's going to burn burn itself out or flame in a way that is stunning as well as paradigm shifting in nature. That should apply to everyone in the BP not named David Weathers.

That's what the first two months of the season are for, to evaluate what you have. With all this shuffling...we have no idea at this point.

Johnny Footstool
06-04-2007, 04:29 PM
I see your point but in my mind dead weight is someone who can't be trusted to pitch in anything but mop up duty.

I agree with your philosophy in rebuilding. If we don't get to that sort of roster by mid August then something's wrong. I'm willing to give WK a couple months to jettison his past mistakes (Stanton, Maj etc)

It's not so much that he "can't be trusted," it's that Narron refuses to trust him. Those are quite different things.

How is he supposed to earn trust if he never gets a shot, or if he only gets one shot and then ends up in the minors?

Az Red
06-04-2007, 04:36 PM
This season is soooooo bad, every wire transaction from the Reds screems of despiration. Even if it is bringing Hamilton back.

Reds1
06-04-2007, 04:38 PM
None of this surprises me at all. Salmon has 1 pitch and he can't throw it for a strike. At least Coffey pitches to contact. :)

As far as the 3 catcher situation - clearly the manager sees Valentine as a left handed PH. There was no surprise in my book to this move. Personally Sarloos needs to get back up here too! He's been more consistant then well about anyone not named Stormy.

Chip R
06-04-2007, 04:43 PM
Actually, from an ability/physical sense EE looks very similar to the way he looked the week before he was optioned. He was driving the ball well that week and a few of them were starting to fall in. I don't think L'ville had anything to do with his improved BA.

As far as the way he looked, he looked 'joyless' because Narron was making him a scapegoat and the pressure was building that if he made a mistake he would be sent out. Now, he's back and the same thing could happen but at least that doomsday atmosphere has been relieved. That's the only thing that changed IMO. And I'm still of the opinion that Jerry is not the guy to manage this kid. (You can include the rest of the Reds in that statement too. ;)

Rem

I pretty much agree with everything you say. I am curious as to why the improvement happened and why has it been sustained. Wayne is getting credit for the improvement in his game since he was recalled. You seem to believe that it was going to happen if he hadn't been sent down and I agree he was starting to hit better before he was sent down. I still don't think the demotion was necessary. No one can argue that EE has not shown improvement in all facets of his game since his recall. But you would think that he would have regressed once back in the big leagues since Narron is still the manager and doesn't/didn't appreciate EE's game.

The questions that the Reds need to answer - not necessarily to the fans but to themselves - are why did EE slump in the first place? Why has he improved since being recalled and why has the improvement continued under the same management that the slump happened under? Do the Reds need to find a different way to treat their young players?

PuffyPig
06-04-2007, 04:50 PM
Salmon has been very lucky this year, posting a .180 BABIP. His DIPS are every bit as bad as his ERA. He has been unlucky with having some inherited runners score behind him, but his BABIP luck evens it out.

I expect he will be back. he has a chance to be OK. But Coffey is batter than him right now.

registerthis
06-04-2007, 04:51 PM
I expect he will be back. he has a chance to be OK. But Coffey is batter than him right now.

Both are better than half the schlock currently in our pen. That's the point.

Aronchis
06-04-2007, 04:52 PM
Both are better than half the schlock currently in our pen. That's the point.

or maybe he isn't. Maybe he is just another piece of schlock.

flyer85
06-04-2007, 04:53 PM
We need more Majewski!!

M2
06-04-2007, 04:53 PM
None of this surprises me at all. Salmon has 1 pitch and he can't throw it for a strike.

Except of course for when he does. Salmon is tied with Weathers for the best WHIP on the team.

BRM
06-04-2007, 04:56 PM
We need more Majewski!!

Your wish is going to be granted.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 05:00 PM
Except of course for when he does. Salmon is tied with Weathers for the best WHIP on the team.

Yea, his 1.1WHIP and current stint of holding opposing batters to a .147 average, would seem to indicate that he did find the strikezone with regularity, and with relative efficiency.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 05:06 PM
None of this surprises me at all. Salmon has 1 pitch and he can't throw it for a strike. At least Coffey pitches to contact. :)

Personally Sarloos needs to get back up here too! He's been more consistant then well about anyone not named Stormy.

As opposed to Majewski, who can throw 3 pitches for a strike, all of which inevitably wind up deep in an OF gap with Dunn and Hopper hot in pursuit.

Saarloos on the other hand was modestly effective for stints before closing things out with 2 absolute drubbings in his last 2 weeks with the team. Conversely, he couldn't miss an opponent's bat if you gave his pitches the power of invisibility.

I sometimes wonder if our fanbase has come to love the same type of ineffectual, pitch to contact, soft tossers that our F.O. has been bandying about since our last successful bullpens of the 1990-2000 era.

It reminds me of those fans who couldn't stand Scott Williamson because he would walk a batter, or throw a wild pitch, in the process of striking out the side. Apparently, it's preferable, and much more relaxing to go with a guy who has control, but absolutely no "stuff." If that's the case, we should be in heaven, because we've had those sort of bullpen arms in spades the past few years.

Patrick Bateman
06-04-2007, 05:09 PM
The 1.10 WHIP also did include an unsustainable rate of defensive efficiency behind him. With his current walk rates that WHIP is guaranteed to increase.

Of course his control was very good this season in AAA which leads me to believe that he has taken a step forward from previous minor league seasons. His BB rate in the majors may simply be due to an adjustment period. With a greater chance at the major league level, that walk rate may drop significantly, leaving the Reds with an overpowering reliever. He hasn't shown that yet, but he needed more time, and at worst showed much more promise than the likes of Santos and Majewski ever have.

registerthis
06-04-2007, 05:19 PM
or maybe he isn't. Maybe he is just another piece of schlock.

Maybe.

But Stanton, Maj, Santos et al. are known commodities. I don't see the point of continuing to run them out there.

Aronchis
06-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Maybe.

But Stanton, Maj, Santos et al. are known commodities. I don't see the point of continuing to run them out there.

Stanton you about have to. Desperation for pitching may make him moveable if he goes through a good stretch.

Johnny Footstool
06-04-2007, 05:26 PM
I sometimes wonder if our fanbase has come to love the same type of ineffectual, pitch to contact, soft tossers that our F.O. has been bandying about since our last successful bullpens of the 1990-2000 era.

It reminds me of those fans who couldn't stand Scott Williamson because he would walk a batter, or throw a wild pitch, in the process of striking out the side. Apparently, it's preferable, and much more relaxing to go with a guy who has control, but absolutely no "stuff." If that's the case, we should be in heaven, because we've had those sort of bullpen arms in spades the past few years.

Little League mentality.

Walking someone represents an inability to perform the basic task of throwing strikes. It's the flip side of a batter's strikeouts representing the inability to perform the basic task of hitting a ball. These things are ingrained in little leaguers as the worst kinds of failure. For some people, these ideas carry over to all levels of baseball.

KronoRed
06-04-2007, 05:32 PM
We need more Majewski!!

We meaning all of our opponents ;)

PuffyPig
06-04-2007, 05:45 PM
I sometimes wonder if our fanbase has come to love the same type of ineffectual, pitch to contact, soft tossers that our F.O. has been bandying about since our last successful bullpens of the 1990-2000 era.

It reminds me of those fans who couldn't stand Scott Williamson because he would walk a batter, or throw a wild pitch, in the process of striking out the side. Apparently, it's preferable, and much more relaxing to go with a guy who has control, but absolutely no "stuff." If that's the case, we should be in heaven, because we've had those sort of bullpen arms in spades the past few years.

I think the fanbase wants pitchers who make outs and don't give up runs.

I doubt that Wayne likes the soft tossers more than the Broxton types. It's just that the Broxton types don't grow on trees, and he gets what he can afford and what's available. Not a big surprise as to what's available and cheap.

You get what you pay for.

M2
06-04-2007, 05:47 PM
Little League mentality.

Walking someone represents an inability to perform the basic task of throwing strikes. It's the flip side of a batter's strikeouts representing the inability to perform the basic task of hitting a ball. These things are ingrained in little leaguers as the worst kinds of failure. For some people, these ideas carry over to all levels of baseball.

Excellent point.

flyer85
06-04-2007, 06:04 PM
BTW, the giant sucking sound is D'Artagnan.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 06:19 PM
I think the fanbase wants pitchers who make outs and don't give up runs.

I doubt that Wayne likes the soft tossers more than the Broxton types. It's just that the Broxton types don't grow on trees, and he gets what he can afford and what's available. Not a big surprise as to what's available and cheap.

You get what you pay for.

So why has he not given McBeth a chance? McBeth is about the only bullpen arm right now capable of being a "Broxton" type, but he never makes it into a game. And you know he could easily lean on Jerry to get him into games if he so wanted to.

Eric_Davis
06-04-2007, 06:41 PM
So why has he not given McBeth a chance? McBeth is about the only bullpen arm right now capable of being a "Broxton" type, but he never makes it into a game. And you know he could easily lean on Jerry to get him into games if he so wanted to.

I'd like to say that he didn't trade for him unless he had plans of giving him a chance, but with what happened to Brendan Harris, I can't be sure of that at all. Unless the "PTBL" was such a better prospect than Harris, currently entrenched at SS for the Devil Rays with a .304 average and a .357 on-base pct. Not to mention that he plays 2B and 3B, too. Boy, could we use that 26-year old right now with Freel out and Gonzo questionable.

Anyone ever figure out who the PTBL became?

pedro
06-04-2007, 06:55 PM
I'd like to say that he didn't trade for him unless he had plans of giving him a chance, but with what happened to Brendan Harris, I can't be sure of that at all. Unless the "PTBL" was such a better prospect than Harris, currently entrenched at SS for the Devil Rays with a .304 average and a .357 on-base pct. Not to mention that he plays 2B and 3B, too. Boy, could we use that 26-year old right now with Freel out and Gonzo questionable.

Anyone ever figure out who the PTBL became?

I believe it was Cash McPyle.

OnBaseMachine
06-04-2007, 06:57 PM
The Reds just can't seem to understand how to put together a bullpen. Send down the young power arm and keep the old veterans like Santos and Stanton around and Majewski and his infinity ERA. Will they ever learn? You would have thought so by now.

WVRedsFan
06-04-2007, 06:59 PM
Obviously, activating Hamilton and sending out Wise was a no-brainer. Likewise, it's probably time to get Coffey back with the big squad, and I can *live* with Salmon going out. However, there is something that irritates, and worries, me in this scenario (and it's not simply about Brad Salmon, but about the overall principles guiding our future bullpen moves).

Salmon's 4.50ERA over the span of his 10 outings, may seem fairly pedestrian, but not necessarily so for the first 10 games of your rookie season, and it still landed him in better ERA position than 5 members of our current BP. Likewise, Salmon was possibly more effective than his 4.50ERA, control issues the other night, indicate. He struck out 10 batters in his 10IPs of relief; he only allowed 5 hits during that span, and still managed to hold opposing batters to a .147BAA while posting an exceptional 1.10 WHIP. And we all know the particulars that several of his runs allowed actually came at the hands of lesser relievers allowing inherited runners to score. Maybe his one downfall was bouts of wildness, but even so, those were pretty isolated, and in one instance came against an ump with a perpetually moving strikezone that the staff railed against.

So, what's the message when you send out a young guy who is K-ing a batter per inning, and who is keeping opposing batters off the basepaths, even as you continue to protect the moribund likes of Stanton, Majewski, Santos et al? It sends a message to me that our GM isn't about developing a plan for the future, nor about making the 'hard' decisions of cutting ties with worthless vets in favor of youth development. That's another reason that the timing of a potential Bailey move is so suspect, as no other pieces of the 'future' are yet being assembled, nor are their impediments being removed.

Salmon should have stayed, IMO.

100% correct, Stormy. 100%.

The biggest travesty is that the owner cannot see that the man has no plan except to bring more fodder to the table than jim Bowden ever could imagine doing.

This is the future of the Reds. Minnesota Twins Light.

Eric_Davis
06-04-2007, 07:03 PM
I believe it was Cash McPyle.

:(

I really liked Harris as part of that deal and saw him as a Craig Monroe type....3-4 solid years in the Majors. (FWIW, Monroe hit for a .900 OPS in May and has more RBI's (34) than Junior.)

If you have 5 guys like Monroe/Harris to go with 3 outstanding players, you can win a lot of games.

flyer85
06-04-2007, 07:19 PM
The Harris tsituation doesn't bother me other than the fact it further demonstrates the FO has a tin ear about those things.

pedro
06-04-2007, 07:23 PM
:(

I really liked Harris as part of that deal and saw him as a Craig Monroe type....3-4 solid years in the Majors. (FWIW, Monroe hit for a .900 OPS in May and has more RBI's (34) than Junior.)

If you have 5 guys like Monroe/Harris to go with 3 outstanding players, you can win a lot of games.

At the time I was thinking that maybe the Reds were going to play Harris at 2B and move Phillips to SS which made the trade a bit more palatable IMO. Harris never got a chance for the Reds and I just really don't get that aspect of it.

Stormy
06-04-2007, 08:28 PM
I doubt that Wayne likes the soft tossers more than the Broxton types. It's just that the Broxton types don't grow on trees, and he gets what he can afford and what's available. Not a big surprise as to what's available and cheap.

You get what you pay for.

I understand what you are saying, but at what point does our GM get the message that 'you get what you pay for' or that 'quality is preferable to quantity' when it comes to bullpen arms. He's pretty much botched the process of bullpen construct every way imaginable: the reclamation projects, the relatively pricey acquisitions of veterans (and their extensions), the waiver wire claims, and the trades (both major and minor).

Basically almost every single one has been a bust, and perhaps more importantly, about 90% of them profile as the type of ragged arms you simply can't build any bullpen around, much less a powerful bullpen. When Lopez and Kearns still had high trade value, why would you target the 'type' of arms that Krivsky did in return? When in possession of some payroll flexibility, why would you throw large sums at an innumerable assortment of stop-gaps, rather than pursuing a few legitimately viable bullpen cogs, if it costs the same amount in the end?

When you look at this list of names of the pitchers whom he's traded for, acquired, claimed, or 'given an extended lookto ' in our bullpen simply in the past year+ alone, it is nauseating to consider: Hammond, Cormier, Stanton, Mercker, Michalak, White, Franklin, Standridge, Shackelford, Stanton, Saarloos, Yan, Majewski, Schoenweis, Guardado, Burns and Bray. That's 16 guys who have paraded through the BP within the past year+, and that doesn't even touch the "stalwarts" of our current pen. When you consider the combined money wasted on them, the trading resources and time spent, and the innings they've burned, it's a crying shame. And (aside from Bray/Majik) they mostly fit the same profile, which is that of well past their prime soft tossers, who couldn't break a pane of glass, and who are ineffectual even as short-term fixes.

Let's hope that future acquisitions, and an upcoming fair shot for the young power arms already within the system, will both indicate that this previous group of ragtags, don't represent Wayne Krivsky's long-term vision of bullpen construct... as he goes about trying to rebuild the bullpen for the 4th time in less than 2 years.

remdog
06-04-2007, 08:55 PM
I pretty much agree with everything you say. I am curious as to why the improvement happened and why has it been sustained. Wayne is getting credit for the improvement in his game since he was recalled. You seem to believe that it was going to happen if he hadn't been sent down and I agree he was starting to hit better before he was sent down. I still don't think the demotion was necessary. No one can argue that EE has not shown improvement in all facets of his game since his recall. But you would think that he would have regressed once back in the big leagues since Narron is still the manager and doesn't/didn't appreciate EE's game.

The questions that the Reds need to answer - not necessarily to the fans but to themselves - are why did EE slump in the first place? Why has he improved since being recalled and why has the improvement continued under the same management that the slump happened under? Do the Reds need to find a different way to treat their young players?

Maybe there was someone at L'ville that EE felt comfortable/bonded with that was his sounding board---sort of his therapist. (I'm not familiar with the coaching staff of the Bats.) Maybe he's maintained that bond. Or, maybe Edwin got mad and said, 'bleep it, I'm gonna' play my game and if they don't like it, they can cut me or trade me and I'm outta' this nuthouse'. Or, maybe Edwin has it on good authority that Jerry won't be here to mess with him much longer. :) (shrug)

Rem

Patrick Bateman
06-04-2007, 09:07 PM
When in possession of some payroll flexibility, why would you throw large sums at an innumerable assortment of stop-gaps, rather than pursuing a few legitimately viable bullpen cogs, if it costs the same amount in the end?



True, except who was available as a FA we could afford that has produced this year?

Ltlabner
06-04-2007, 09:52 PM
Maybe there was someone at L'ville that EE felt comfortable/bonded with that was his sounding board---sort of his therapist. (I'm not familiar with the coaching staff of the Bats.) Maybe he's maintained that bond. Or, maybe Edwin got mad and said, 'bleep it, I'm gonna' play my game and if they don't like it, they can cut me or trade me and I'm outta' this nuthouse'. Or, maybe Edwin has it on good authority that Jerry won't be here to mess with him much longer. :) (shrug)

Rem

Or maybe EE got the message, grew up a little, and focused more on his game?

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 09:56 PM
Or maybe EE got the message, grew up a little, and focused more on his game?

Anything's possible. Though correlation shouldn't be confused with causation.

Doesn't appear that Kearns' demotion did him any lasting good. Though Hancock did go on to have a career year when Jerry called him fat. Maybe they can take away the Nintendos next time. See what that does for morale and maturity. Come to their homes and take away their TIVO.

flyer85
06-04-2007, 09:56 PM
Or maybe EE got the message, grew up a little, and focused more on his game?or maybe he was just off to a slow start, slumps happen.

In the end it is just so much speculation.

Ltlabner
06-04-2007, 09:58 PM
or maybe he was just off to a slow start, slumps happen.

In the end it is just so much speculation.

Oh, I agree 100%. We have very little information as to the real reasoning behind the decision to send him down. I also agree that the likely cause was a slow start coupled with a rookie reaction to press harder. You just end up spiraling down the harder you push yourself.

I just don't buy into the notion that EE is a fragile little psyche who crumbles to pieces because the big bad Jerry is mean to him or that somehow after a week or two in Louisville EE found a mentor to guide him through all the cold and lonely times.

westofyou
06-04-2007, 09:59 PM
In the end it is just so much speculation.

Also known as the main ingredient of the buffalo chips that keep the Redszone flames burning bright, day in and day out.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 09:59 PM
I just don't buy into the notion that EE is a fragile little psyche who crumbles to pieces because the big bad Jerry is mean to him or that somehow after a week or two in Louisville EE found a mentor to guide him through all the cold and lonely times.

Except this is a strawman argument: no one's making this argument.

flyer85
06-04-2007, 10:00 PM
Oh, I agree 100%. We have very little information as to the real reasoning behind the decision to send him down.

I just don't buy into the notion that EE is a fragile little psyche who crumbles to pieces because the big bad Jerry is mean to him or that somehow after a week or two in Louisville EE found a mentor to guide him through all the cold and lonely times.I'm not buying anything. It is what it is. EE got off to a slow start but has been very good after coming back from his demotion, however, the team still sucks serious wind.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 10:01 PM
Also known as the main ingredient of the buffalo chips that keep the Redszone flames burning bright, day in and day out.

So it's all vanity?

I disagree--there's speculation then there's speculation based on fact and reason.

Ltlabner
06-04-2007, 10:01 PM
Except this is a strawman argument: no one's making this argument.

I beg to differ....


Maybe there was someone at L'ville that EE felt comfortable/bonded with that was his sounding board---sort of his therapist. (I'm not familiar with the coaching staff of the Bats.) Maybe he's maintained that bond. Or, maybe Edwin got mad and said, 'bleep it, I'm gonna' play my game and if they don't like it, they can cut me or trade me and I'm outta' this nuthouse'. Or, maybe Edwin has it on good authority that Jerry won't be here to mess with him much longer. :) (shrug)

Rem

Ltlabner
06-04-2007, 10:02 PM
I'm not buying anything. It is what it is. EE got off to a slow start but has been very good after coming back from his demotion, however, the team still sucks serious wind.

Sadly I can not argue that point one bit.

:cry:

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 10:02 PM
I beg to differ....

Let's just say that I'd paraphrase rem's argument quite a bit differently from yours.

westofyou
06-04-2007, 10:03 PM
So it's all vanity?

I disagree--there's speculation then there's speculation based on fact and reason.

Vanity?

No, but a lot of speculation is coming directly out of a vacuum that has limited reality sources feeding the fire.

Ltlabner
06-04-2007, 10:04 PM
Let's just say that I'd paraphrase rem's argument quite a bit differently from yours.

Rem's made the point many times, in many posts that he believes that Narron's incessant "targeting" of EE caused him to freeze up, and be so afraid that he couldn't possibly relax and play ball.

The post I responded too, and copied in reply to yours fits right in line with that premise.

Aronchis
06-04-2007, 10:05 PM
If Edwin were a "real" black man, he wouldn't put up with that BS the Reds put him through, since he isn't, he is easier to control..........

er sorry wrong thread;).

I think EE was off to a very bad start. most likely pressing and it got worse, sorta a Sophy slump. He didn't need to be demoted, he was about ready to snap out of it anyway IMO. The Reds paniced.

flyer85
06-04-2007, 10:06 PM
We are a hopeless bunch

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 10:06 PM
The post I responded too, and copied in reply to yours fits right in line with that premise.

I guess. :confused:

remdog
06-04-2007, 11:19 PM
Hey! It's my opinion and my observation. (shrug) I could be correct or I could be totally off base. Part of what I wrote was tongue-in-cheek and part of it I think is a possibility.

Does anyone here believe we all perform our jobs without pressure? Does anyone here believe that we all react the same way to that pressure? I've been in sales for close to 40 years and I've seen all sorts of responses to the need to 'make your numbers' including people doing worse when pressed. And I've seen all sorts of managers know when to apply pressure and when to give a pat on the back---and I've seen them apply those techniques in absolutely wrong also.

Edwin got off to a slow start. It happens. But Jerry/Wayne weren't smart enough to pat him on the back and simply say, 'go out there and play your game, have fun'.

Rem

WVPacman
06-04-2007, 11:31 PM
I still can't figure out why Stanton is still with the team.The guy has had a great career but the truth is that he is stinking up the joint everytime he comes into a game.I know hes a vetern but he needs to be treated the same as Coffey,EE,Salmon and who ever else has been sent to the minors.

Patrick Bateman
06-04-2007, 11:40 PM
I still can't figure out why Stanton is still with the team.The guy has had a great career but the truth is that he is stinking up the joint everytime he comes into a game.I know hes a vetern but he needs to be treated the same as Coffey,EE,Salmon and who ever else has been sent to the minors.

The hope (at least my hope) is that he can string together some decent outings so he can be traded to a team willing to pay him 3M next season.

I think there is a realistic chance of some other team willing to do that knowing the current market for pitching, so I wouldn't mark the 3M down as sunk.

WVPacman
06-04-2007, 11:44 PM
The hope (at least my hope) is that he can string together some decent outings so he can be traded to a team willing to pay him 3M next season.

I think there is a realistic chance of some other team willing to do that knowing the current market for pitching, so I wouldn't mark the 3M down as sunk.

Yeah I agree!!

KronoRed
06-05-2007, 01:54 AM
I only hope said foolish team shows up soon

Ron Madden
06-05-2007, 03:24 AM
Little League mentality.

Walking someone represents an inability to perform the basic task of throwing strikes. It's the flip side of a batter's strikeouts representing the inability to perform the basic task of hitting a ball. These things are ingrained in little leaguers as the worst kinds of failure. For some people, these ideas carry over to all levels of baseball.


Jeff Brantly comes on the air everynight preaching the sermon of throwing first pitch strikes and pounding the strikezone. Whenever the opposing hitter swings and misses or takes a strike all is well, and Jeff is delighted he has let us in on "The Secret To Successful Pitching"...When those pitches thrown in the strikezone turn into linedrives goin' the other way Jeff blames the pitcher for not fooling the hitter.

I'm afraid that Wayne, Jerry and Dick Pole think exactly like Jeff does.

They value the pitcher who consistently throws the ball over the plate much more than they do the pitcher with velocity and movement but less control.

I hope and pray things change around this organization.

mth123
06-05-2007, 05:00 AM
Not that I don't agree with you but with Narron at the helm it's just not going to happen. Narron's just too quick to bury guys and not get them enough regular work to be effective when they do pitch. And by god, if they are lucky enough to be effective then Narron will ride them into the ground.

While I agree that the team is short on "established" talent and a poor bullpen in 2007 was pretty predicatble. I believe that the above short summary from Pedro describes a large % of the problems related to the bullpen in 2006 and 2007. A ton of pitchers have come and gone and there still hasn't been one (except maybe Weathers who was a veteren) to step forward. Each year saw different guys as pitching coach as well.

There is really only one common denominator to the 2 worst bullpen seasons I've seen in my 40+ years watching the Reds. That common denominator is Jerry Narron.

Aronchis
06-05-2007, 05:06 AM
The Reds are such a mess right now, I am thinking the Cleveland Indians type stretch is here. Another 25-30 years of this. The ownership regime change did nothing..................my I am sounding like Chip;)

mth123
06-05-2007, 05:11 AM
He sure looks like a different player than he looked before he was optioned. I don't know what they were telling him down there but it's made all the difference in the world. I was half-joking when I said that the LOU staff should come up here but the difference in EE is striking. You were one of the few people that supported Wayne's decision. You were saying that it looked like he was joyless out there. To me, it looks that now he's relaxed and having fun out there. Would you agree with that?

Maybe he just needed to get away from the Manager who got in his head via the strange treatment he'd shown EE. Its possible that the Reds should get some credit for sending EE down to get him right. Its also very possible that the Reds (specifically Mr. Narron) should get the blame for messing him up in the first place.

He certainly wasn't playing "relaxed" before he was sent out.

mth123
06-05-2007, 05:29 AM
Actually, from an ability/physical sense EE looks very similar to the way he looked the week before he was optioned. He was driving the ball well that week and a few of them were starting to fall in. I don't think L'ville had anything to do with his improved BA.

As far as the way he looked, he looked 'joyless' because Narron was making him a scapegoat and the pressure was building that if he made a mistake he would be sent out. Now, he's back and the same thing could happen but at least that doomsday atmosphere has been relieved. That's the only thing that changed IMO. And I'm still of the opinion that Jerry is not the guy to manage this kid. (You can include the rest of the Reds in that statement too. ;)

Rem

This post is right on IMO.

mth123
06-05-2007, 05:36 AM
Little League mentality.

Walking someone represents an inability to perform the basic task of throwing strikes. It's the flip side of a batter's strikeouts representing the inability to perform the basic task of hitting a ball. These things are ingrained in little leaguers as the worst kinds of failure. For some people, these ideas carry over to all levels of baseball.

I think this makes a ton of sense.

mth123
06-05-2007, 05:45 AM
True, except who was available as a FA we could afford that has produced this year?

Not sure anyone was. In that case, I keep my money in my pocket and bring on the kids. There are enough other needs that the money could have gone for. The Draft, a better Manager, a RH Bat, an upgrade at # 3 starter, a new GM, take on a contract in trade, etc. It doesn't make sense to pay an old guy $2.5 Million to do the same job as a kid making $400K unless the guy is a clear upgrade.

Patrick Bateman
06-05-2007, 12:59 PM
Not sure anyone was. In that case, I keep my money in my pocket and bring on the kids. There are enough other needs that the money could have gone for. The Draft, a better Manager, a RH Bat, an upgrade at # 3 starter, a new GM, take on a contract in trade, etc. It doesn't make sense to pay an old guy $2.5 Million to do the same job as a kid making $400K unless the guy is a clear upgrade.

That's of course true. What the Reds did was basically waste their money on veterans.

My point was that it's a common belief that when you have some extra money you can just basically spend it on the open market fo some good players. For the money the Reds spent on mediocre relievers, there was not a whole lot out there that would make the team any better (give or take a couple of wins). Wasting it was never a good idea, but I don't think we missed out on a lot.

It might have been a better idea to put that money towards the farm, rather than on old vets not likely to help.

Chip R
06-05-2007, 02:03 PM
Maybe he just needed to get away from the Manager who got in his head via the strange treatment he'd shown EE. Its possible that the Reds should get some credit for sending EE down to get him right. Its also very possible that the Reds (specifically Mr. Narron) should get the blame for messing him up in the first place.

He certainly wasn't playing "relaxed" before he was sent out.


Indeed he wasn't. But he's been back up for, what, 2 weeks? Narron's still here. If Narron was the problem and if he has treated EE the same before he was sent down, shouldn't EE be regressing back to his pre-demotion form?

This is just speculation on my part but when EE was sent down, we heard a lot of quotes from Narron about how he was impressed how EE took the demotion. Maybe Narron figured that EE took his demotion so well that his attitude isn't the problem and perhaps Narron was too tough on him. Or maybe Wayne had a heart-to-heart with Narron about EE and told him to cut out the crap with him and give him a break.

Or maybe Narron saw enough of Freel at 3rd to see that he isn't a helluva lot better option than EE defensively.

I think also Freel's and Hamilton's injuries may have removed some of the competition that EE felt there was for his job. The better Josh does, the less time Freel plays and since Phillips is doing well, the only other place for Freel is 3rd. When Hamilton was sick and put on the DL, the CF job was Freel's until he got hurt. The only other competition is Castro and I know the Reds have serious man-love for him but they can't think that Castro's anemic bat is serious competition for EE even while he's slumping.

RedsManRick
06-05-2007, 02:13 PM
That's of course true. What the Reds did was basically waste their money on veterans.

My point was that it's a common belief that when you have some extra money you can just basically spend it on the open market fo some good players. For the money the Reds spent on mediocre relievers, there was not a whole lot out there that would make the team any better (give or take a couple of wins). Wasting it was never a good idea, but I don't think we missed out on a lot.

It might have been a better idea to put that money towards the farm, rather than on old vets not likely to help.

This is a very good point. FA money should be used to acquire the things you cannot produce from the system or easily acquire via trades. I'm not sure that the impact bat/arm we needed was out there, but acquiring below average relievers and bench players did little to improve the team.

I think the value in Krivsky's approach to last season is in what he didn't do -- and that's blow a lot of money on big contracts for mediocre players; No Jason Marquis or Juan Pierre contracts. Stanton and Cormier mistakes are annoying, but don't hamstring a franchise financially the way an Eric Milton one can.

mth123
06-05-2007, 09:17 PM
Indeed he wasn't. But he's been back up for, what, 2 weeks? Narron's still here. If Narron was the problem and if he has treated EE the same before he was sent down, shouldn't EE be regressing back to his pre-demotion form?

This is just speculation on my part but when EE was sent down, we heard a lot of quotes from Narron about how he was impressed how EE took the demotion. Maybe Narron figured that EE took his demotion so well that his attitude isn't the problem and perhaps Narron was too tough on him. Or maybe Wayne had a heart-to-heart with Narron about EE and told him to cut out the crap with him and give him a break.

Or maybe Narron saw enough of Freel at 3rd to see that he isn't a helluva lot better option than EE defensively.

I think also Freel's and Hamilton's injuries may have removed some of the competition that EE felt there was for his job. The better Josh does, the less time Freel plays and since Phillips is doing well, the only other place for Freel is 3rd. When Hamilton was sick and put on the DL, the CF job was Freel's until he got hurt. The only other competition is Castro and I know the Reds have serious man-love for him but they can't think that Castro's anemic bat is serious competition for EE even while he's slumping.


Maybe the time away just cooled off a situation that may have never happened had the manager acted correctly. Sometimes it just takes a cooling off period. My problem is that such a period was needed in the first place.