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View Full Version : Reds should hire a top pitching expert



Kc61
06-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Krivsky has made dozens of moves to change the bullpen. Narron/Pole have helped put together a 12-man staff and make the changes game by game. What is the result? More terrible pitching numbers.

There are guys on the major league staff who shouldn't be there. There are promising guys in the minors who won't be promoted. Questionable two year contracts to relievers. One guy, McBeth, keeps getting called up and never pitches. Livingston pitches well and gets sent down. Bailey is coming up, strangely before a big home series.

Most people running such a business would want somebody with a great pitching track record to come in, make specific recommendations, and do so directly to ownership. I would love to see the Reds bring in somebody like this.

How many years of substandard pitching can one team have?

RANDY IN INDY
06-04-2007, 08:38 PM
What is Ray Miller doing these days?

Yachtzee
06-04-2007, 08:43 PM
What is Ray Miller doing these days?

Probably wanting more money than the Reds are willing to pay.

marcshoe
06-04-2007, 08:52 PM
Do you mean like Jim Beattie? :evil:

(one more case of good idea--bad execution. :bang:)

Spitball
06-04-2007, 09:02 PM
I agree. I believe an organizational pitching coordinator would be an excellent idea. I find there are new and innovative ideas emerging in the world of pitching all the time. There is no substitute for the experienced baseball man, but I do believe there should be someone who studies recent training and conditioning programs as well as effective strategies and tactics.

It amazes me that a Dave Duncan would have a pitcher like that Reyes kid with the flat bill who just got sent down. That kid has terrible, terrible mechanics. Why did the Cardinal organization allow that kid to progress through their system with those mechanics? What is a major league coach suppose to do when he has a Reyes at the major league level? I believe a central pitching "scientist" could analyze, evaluate, and prescribe fixes for an organization. Actually, that is pretty much what Johnny Sain did with the Braves in the late 1980's before he retired.

UKFlounder
06-04-2007, 09:06 PM
But can even the best of pitching experts make chicken salad out of chicken s(p)it?

At some point you have to have the talent, though I think the idea of one organizational coordinator to develop a plan and to help acquire pitchers who fit that plan might not be a bad idea.

Still, even the Mazzones don't seem to do as well without the Glavines, Smoltz & Madduxes around.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 09:16 PM
I have an idea for a top pitching expert: a knowledgeable GM.

Kc61
06-04-2007, 09:30 PM
But can even the best of pitching experts make chicken salad out of chicken s(p)it?

At some point you have to have the talent, though I think the idea of one organizational coordinator to develop a plan and to help acquire pitchers who fit that plan might not be a bad idea.

Still, even the Mazzones don't seem to do as well without the Glavines, Smoltz & Madduxes around.

I'm not talking about a pitching coach helping to develop pitchers. I agree you usually can't develop someone who lacks the ability to be a top pitcher.

I'm talking about someone to take charge of the identification of top pitching talent; acquisition of that talent, including trades, free agency, and the draft; planning the development of young pitchers; and helping to decide which pitchers should be on the major league roster. This person would also have input as to how the manager uses pitchers and would presumably have theories and ideas of how to condition and train pitchers.

Somebody to take charge of this organization's pitching personnel. A GM or assistant GM level person -- but someone with proven, top notch pitching expertise. He would need assistants and authority.

The Reds have never been a great pitching franchise. They've had good pens, and occasionally some good starters, but not like the top pitching clubs. With the team in last place in the worst division in baseball, maybe it's time to hire someone specifically to change that.

If I were Castellini, I would do this.

Yachtzee
06-04-2007, 09:41 PM
I'm not talking about a pitching coach helping to develop pitchers. I agree you usually can't develop someone who lacks the ability to be a top pitcher.

I'm talking about someone to take charge of the identification of top pitching talent; acquisition of that talent, including trades, free agency, and the draft; planning the development of young pitchers; and helping to decide which pitchers should be on the major league roster. This person would also have input as to how the manager uses pitchers.

Somebody to take charge of this organization's pitching personnel. A GM or assistant GM level person -- but someone with proven pitching expertise. He would need assistants and authority.

The Reds have never been a great pitching franchise. They've had good pens, and occasionally some good starters, but not like the top pitching clubs. With the team in last place in the worst division in baseball, maybe it's time to hire someone specifically to change that.

If I were Castellini, I would do this.

I agree 100% I've been advocating bolstering the scouting and development of pitching in-house for years, but pitching seems to be the Reds' bugaboo just as the Bengals never seem to be able to fix their defense. Pitching is always going to come at a premium. Teams that have similar revenue streams that succeed are the ones that develop their own pitching in-house. The Reds have been terrible at identifying pitching talent and, even when they do, they don't develop it successfully. If Homer Bailey succeeds, I would think it will probably be in spite of rather than because of the Reds scouting and development.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 09:48 PM
I don't know--in theory this sounds good, but it could be another cook to the spoil the broth.

I mean, presumably this "pitching expert" would have to sell a guy on doing something that he himself (Wayne) should already know how to do: identify pitching talent. Sure, a guy needs to have a good circle of smart guys to help him scout this talent, but then why aren't they already doing it? It sounds like you guys are saying: "Can your current advisors and get some new ones." Why not just can the guy who doesn't know what he's looking for in the first place? Or just hire this "pitching guru" as the GM?

Let me just say though that if your thesis is: the Reds need to find the best evaluator of pitching in MLB, then I wholeheartedly agree; then make him GM--then HIS assistant can go about tending to offensive needs.

Kc61
06-04-2007, 10:05 PM
I don't know--in theory this sounds good, but it could be another cook to the spoil the broth.

I mean, presumably this "pitching expert" would have to sell a guy on doing something that he himself (Wayne) should already know how to do: identify pitching talent. Sure, a guy needs to have a good circle of smart guys to help him scout this talent, but then why aren't they already doing it? It sounds like you guys are saying: "Can your current advisors and get some new ones." Why not just can the guy who doesn't know what he's looking for in the first place? Or just hire this "pitching guru" as the GM?

Well, one way to do this is just to change the advisors. But another way is to change the organizational structure to allow for a separate person or group devoted entirely to fixing this organization's pitching.

Not a GM with many diverse responsibilities. Not simply an advisor who whispers in the GM's ear. But a separate high level individual -- probably reporting directly to ownership -- to focus entirely on pitching. And, of course, a person with specialized pitching knowledge to be in charge of it.

There are various ways to organize this and it probably is a departure from the usual baseball structure. But the problem is so obvious and I don't think generalists are necessarily the best persons to fix it.

KronoRed
06-04-2007, 10:12 PM
I have an idea for a top pitching expert: a knowledgeable GM.

Those don't come cheap

Falls City Beer
06-04-2007, 10:15 PM
Well, one way to do this is just to change the advisors. But another way is to change the organizational structure to allow for a separate person or group devoted entirely to fixing this organization's pitching.

Not a GM with many diverse responsibilities. Not simply an advisor who whispers in the GM's ear. But a separate high level individual -- probably reporting directly to ownership -- to focus entirely on pitching. And, of course, a person with specialized pitching knowledge to be in charge of it.

There are various ways to organize this and it probably is a departure from the usual baseball structure. But the problem is so obvious and I don't think generalists are necessarily the best persons to fix it.

Most GMs, when you really pin them down to the wax, aren't "generalists." They have pretty specific niches/skill sets. True generalists are freaks.

fargo55
06-05-2007, 01:27 AM
Krivsky has made dozens of moves to change the bullpen. Narron/Pole have helped put together a 12-man staff and make the changes game by game. What is the result? More terrible pitching numbers.

There are guys on the major league staff who shouldn't be there. There are promising guys in the minors who won't be promoted. Questionable two year contracts to relievers. One guy, McBeth, keeps getting called up and never pitches. Livingston pitches well and gets sent down. Bailey is coming up, strangely before a big home series.

Most people running such a business would want somebody with a great pitching track record to come in, make specific recommendations, and do so directly to ownership. I would love to see the Reds bring in somebody like this.

How many years of substandard pitching can one team have?
I completely agree. The Reds seem to be without any quantiifiable pitching leadership in their organization. Their are a bunch of capable people, but they lack the empowerment that only ownership can convey. Having seen the coaching staffs at work, I believe they have the knowledge to make the necessary progress, if led by someone who was charged with the oversight of that task. Right now, they are a ship without a rudder or sails. I can think of a number of coaches who are already in place, who could take on this task, but only if they are granted the appropriate level of authority and respect. Let's hope they can see the obvious wisdom of such a move, soon.

BCubb2003
06-05-2007, 02:27 AM
You have to be careful, or you'll end up with oddball organization-wide rules like everybody takes the first pitch, only for pitchers. Or you try to force everybody to use the same motion.

Still, I seem to remember John Smoltz talking about what a difference it made to go from the Tigers organization to the Braves organization.

Kc61
06-05-2007, 10:00 AM
You have to be careful, or you'll end up with oddball organization-wide rules like everybody takes the first pitch, only for pitchers. Or you try to force everybody to use the same motion.

Still, I seem to remember John Smoltz talking about what a difference it made to go from the Tigers organization to the Braves organization.

I'm not worried about oddball rules. The right guy would not make oddball rules. Hopefully, this kind of change could help cure the "oddball" team ERA.

Spitball
06-06-2007, 07:41 PM
I'm not worried about oddball rules. The right guy would not make oddball rules. Hopefully, this kind of change could help cure the "oddball" team ERA.

From 1979 through 1985, Leo Mazzone was a Braves' minor league pitching coach, and he secretly was using his pitching program. In 1986, he explained his program in an organizational meeting and the Braves decided to adopt it throughout the entire organization.

It is interesting that the Braves didn't know exactly what Mazzone was doing with his pitchers in the minors. Once they got everyone in the organization on the same page as Mazzone, the organizational pitching became first rate.