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schroomytunes
06-06-2007, 05:32 PM
This is one of those small moves that could help us in the long run. Berroa can play 3b/ss/2b and has some pop in his bat, but has been basically thrown in the trash pile by the Royals. He's 29 and would be a better bench option than Castro. we could probably land him pretty cheap, but instead I would prefer to go this route instead:

Reds trade: Todd Coffey, BJ Symanski, and Brad Salmon

Royals trade: Angel Berroa, and Joel Peralta

KC gets two hard throwers in their pen, and an OF prospect that may or may not pan out, while the Reds get a replacement for Castro and an arm for the bullpen for the 7th-8th inning thoughts?

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2007, 05:33 PM
There's a reason the worst franchise in baseball released Berroa -- he can't play.

Patrick Bateman
06-06-2007, 05:37 PM
Berroa is one of the few players that may actually not be an upgrade over Casrto (plus he's guaranteed another 7M). Trading for him would be appalling.

Joseph
06-06-2007, 05:38 PM
There's a reason the worst franchise in baseball released Berroa -- he can't play.

It clearly states the Royals released him, not the Reds. ;)

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2007, 05:42 PM
It clearly states the Royals released him, not the Reds. ;)

There's Reds-level suckitude, then there's a huge chasm, then there's the Royals.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 05:45 PM
There's Reds-level suckitude, then there's a huge chasm, then there's the Royals.

Not anymore.

pedro
06-06-2007, 05:48 PM
Not anymore.

I just don't agree with that.

Always Red
06-06-2007, 05:48 PM
There's Reds-level suckitude, then there's a huge chasm, then there's the Royals.

That huge chasm is a one game lead, for now....;)

pedro
06-06-2007, 05:51 PM
That huge chasm is a one game lead, for now....;)

Current records aside the Reds organization isn't in nearly as bad shape as the Royals.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 05:52 PM
I just don't agree with that.

In years past, I would have totally agreed with you. But I fail to see how the destinies of each team differ anymore. Maybe the Reds have more tradeable parts, but does anyone trust Krivsky to do anything but diminish their worth in trade?

pedro
06-06-2007, 05:55 PM
In years past, I would have totally agreed with you. But I fail to see how the destinies of each team differ anymore.

I don't know much about what they've got in the minors, but their big prospect Alex Gordon is tanking and almost the entire rest of their major league roster is either trash or just playing like it. The Reds at least have some decent core players to build around.

Matt700wlw
06-06-2007, 05:56 PM
Not anymore.

I'm not ready to go that far, at this point...and I hope I never am.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 06:02 PM
I'm not ready to go that far, at this point...and I hope I never am.

I suppose; though a team is much more than just the commodities that they currently possess. Often a team is much more what can be done with those commodities. I have no idea if Dayton Moore is more skilled than Krivsky, but I have a difficult time believing that he could be less skilled.

Always Red
06-06-2007, 06:08 PM
I suppose; though a team is much more than just the commodities that they currently possess. Often a team is much more what can be done with those commodities. I have no idea if Dayton Moore is more skilled than Krivsky, but I have a difficult time believing that he could be less skilled.

Good point; let's talk GM's.

Is Moore any better than Kriv? I know that he was extremely well thought of coming out of Atlanta. Moore has been on the job a little less than Kriv; the Royals have improved, the Reds have regressed.

M2
06-06-2007, 06:21 PM
Angel Berroa is about as bad a player as you can find. No one is claiming him, though I imagine someone will offer him the major league minimum to be on their bench. I just hope and pray it won't be the Reds.

RedsManRick
06-06-2007, 06:23 PM
Berroa basically is Juan Castro, he's just not as old and a worse defender. Seeing as how we have to pay Castro either way, pass.

Always Red
06-06-2007, 06:32 PM
Berroa basically is Juan Castro, he's just not as old and a worse defender. Seeing as how we have to pay Castro either way, pass.

Wow, we found someone worse than Juan! (contract included, of course...)

I really have been one of the only Castro fans on this site, but even I have to admit that he's having an extraordinarily bad year (and he's not going to be any better next year). And I liked him only as a utility player, a late inning defensive replacement. Nothing more.

I know, he's terrible.

I'd bring Keppinger back up and eat the rest of the Castro contract.

PS- I think we got Kepp from KC, didn't we?

Doc. Scott
06-06-2007, 07:26 PM
Berroa is a toolsy Juan Castro, if one could imagine such a thing without one's head exploding.

He's only gotten this many chances because he managed one really solid year as the KC starting SS.

Always Red
06-06-2007, 07:30 PM
Berroa is a toolsy Juan Castro, if one could imagine such a thing without one's head exploding.

He's only gotten this many chances because he managed one really solid year as the KC starting SS.

Rookie of the Year, 2003.

PuffyPig
06-06-2007, 07:37 PM
we could probably land him pretty cheap, but instead I would prefer to go this route instead:

Reds trade: Todd Coffey, BJ Symanski, and Brad Salmon

Royals trade: Angel Berroa, and Joel Peralta



If we could land him cheap (forggeting for a minute than we wouldn't want to land him at all), why wouldn't we simply land him cheap, as opposed to giving up 2 members of our bullpen, including one of our best ones (Coffey).

schroomytunes
06-06-2007, 07:45 PM
Ok so I guess there's no one on board this trade-just thought I'd float it out there. Ok how about this one instead:

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Todd Coffey, and Brad Salmon

Royals trade: Alex Gordon and Jimmy Gobble

The Royals get the LF slugger they desperatly need, and young hard thowers for the bullpen. While the Reds get a lefty for the pen and can move Gordon to 1b and play Votto in LF!

Patrick Bateman
06-06-2007, 07:58 PM
Ok so I guess there's no one on board this trade-just thought I'd float it out there. Ok how about this one instead:

Reds trade: Adam Dunn, Todd Coffey, and Brad Salmon

Royals trade: Alex Gordon and Jimmy Gobble

The Royals get the LF slugger they desperatly need, and young hard thowers for the bullpen. While the Reds get a lefty for the pen and can move Gordon to 1b and play Votto in LF!

The Royals aren't going to trade Gordon.

Small market teams don't improve by taking on FA's to be and dealing their top prospects. Why would they trade their best prospect for 4 months of Dunn?

M2
06-06-2007, 08:06 PM
Rookie of the Year, 2003.

Sub question, is Angel Berroa the worst player ever to win a ROY?

He had an OPS+ of 96 even in his ROY season and he's at 77 for his career. Eric Hinske, Todd Hollandsworth, Jerome Walton, Curt Blefary and Ron Hansen look like titans in comparison.

Berroa's in the pile with Joe Charboneau (who at least had one legitimately good season), Pat Listach (who could at least run), Bob Hamelin (who was really fat and unattractive), John Castino, Butch Metzger, Don Schwall and Ken Hubbs (who died in a tragic accident before he ever registered a half-decent season).

Always Red
06-06-2007, 09:08 PM
Bob Hamelin (who was really fat and unattractive)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/bob_hamelin_autograph.jpg

flyer85
06-06-2007, 10:08 PM
This is one of those small moves that could help us in the long run. Berroa can play 3b/ss/2b and has some pop in his bat, but has been basically thrown in the trash pile by the Royals. but we already have Castro, there is no room :devil:

Steve4192
06-08-2007, 11:52 AM
Pat Listach

I still can't believe that guy edged out Kenny Lofton for ROY.

Steve4192
06-08-2007, 12:03 PM
Not anymore.

Recency versus primacy.

Yes, both the Reds & Royals are currently playing sub-0.400 ball, but that is where the similarities end. KC is working on their fourth consecutive 100+ loss season and averaged 58.7 wins over from 2004-2006. The Reds have averaged 76.3 wins over the same time period. Those 18 extra wins/year are indeed a huge chasm.

Based on past performance, the Reds are a team that is severely underperforming versus expectations. The Royals OTOH are actually meeting expectations. By the end of the year, I fully expect the Reds to right their ship and finish with a fantastically mediocre 70-80 wins while the Royals finish with their usual 55-65 wins.

4256 Hits
06-08-2007, 09:17 PM
Recency versus primacy.

Yes, both the Reds & Royals are currently playing sub-0.400 ball, but that is where the similarities end. KC is working on their fourth consecutive 100+ loss season and averaged 58.7 wins over from 2004-2006. The Reds have averaged 76.3 wins over the same time period. Those 18 extra wins/year are indeed a huge chasm.



Put the Reds in the AL central in place of the Royals and guess how many more games they would have lost the last couple years and put the Roayals in the Reds place and I would guess that they would have won just about the same number of games. Also add in the fact that the AL overall recently has been much better than the NL.

Always Red
06-08-2007, 09:25 PM
Put the Reds in the AL central in place of the Royals and guess how many more games they would have lost the last couple years and put the Roayals in the Reds place and I would guess that they would have won just about the same number of games. Also add in the fact that the AL overall recently has been much better than the NL.

Plus, I'd add that the Reds are trending down, and the Royals are trending up (admittedly, from pure abysmal) right now.

Krivsky has got to be 2nd guessing himself right now. Any sane man would. I thought this team was better than it has shown itself to be so far. The bullpen is much better than it was at the beginning of last year, and yet....it's definitely not.

jmcclain19
06-09-2007, 03:42 PM
Sub question, is Angel Berroa the worst player ever to win a ROY?

He had an OPS+ of 96 even in his ROY season and he's at 77 for his career. Eric Hinske, Todd Hollandsworth, Jerome Walton, Curt Blefary and Ron Hansen look like titans in comparison.

Berroa's in the pile with Joe Charboneau (who at least had one legitimately good season), Pat Listach (who could at least run), Bob Hamelin (who was really fat and unattractive), John Castino, Butch Metzger, Don Schwall and Ken Hubbs (who died in a tragic accident before he ever registered a half-decent season).

Marty Cordova & Ben Grieve immediately come to mind as well...although at least both of them had 1-2 more usable seasons after their ROY award.