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Phhhl
06-06-2007, 07:51 PM
On sports talk tonight, Paul Daugherty virtually interrogated Krivsky about some of the moves the club has made recently. He grilled him about failing to bring Hamilton to Colorodo for the last game of the series Sunday, when he was eligible. He asked him why it took so long to bring up Bailey and called him out for moving Livingston (off a very good outting) back to Louisville for a guy (McBeth) that has yet deliver a major league pitch. Wayne got a little flustered, and even brushed off one comment by saying the topic was "inside baseball stuff" that we would not understand.

Now, I have to say I am not always a big fan of Paul's negative approach. And I don't know if I agreed with everything he tried to say tonight. But, I also have to say that it was great radio. It's obvious that something is seriously wrong with this team, and somebody needs to put the screws to the men who put it together and hold them responsible. It doesn't seem like ownership is ready to do it, and the apathy of the fans who aren't spinning the turnstiles doesn't seem to register. I applaud Daugherty for getting out from behind the typewriter and the shadows to take on the general manager. I never hear Jim Rome or Lance McAllister, or Tom Gamble do that in their haste to kiss posterior whenever a live guest graces their airwaves.

And, btw, I applaud Krivsky for coming in and facing the music as well. I have been a supporter of ownership since they took over, but I am getting a little tired of BC's vanishing act after the bold words he spoke in his first press conference.

In a completely unrelated broadcasting note, I want to contratulate 1530 for firing Richard Skinner.

Marc D
06-06-2007, 08:03 PM
No matter how rough Daugherty was it wasn't rough enough.

We are once again in the hands of an incompetent GM and an apathetic and decietful owner. Narron is just the icing on the cake.

This franchise will soon enter into conversations about the worst in all of sport.

pedro
06-06-2007, 08:08 PM
an apathetic and deceitful owner?

Wow. It's just incredible to me that people say these sort of things after a guy has owned the team less than 18 months.

The_jbh
06-06-2007, 08:12 PM
an apathetic and deceitful owner?

Wow. It's just incredible to me that people say these sort of things after a guy has owned the team less than 18 months.

I don't think thats the case with Bob, I think there is just only so much he can do right now...

The spending this past offseason was absurd and not in our interests to get involved in...

I think hes giving Kriv a little leeway... hopefully we see results in the next yr\

I'll call for Kriv's firing if we suck next year... we over performed last year... expectations were a little high by the staff this yr granted we shouldnt be this bad

Heath
06-06-2007, 08:13 PM
I don't see Bob Castellini turning into David Glass.

I think BCast looks towards St. Louis alot and wants to mold that type of organization.

Marc D
06-06-2007, 08:15 PM
an apathetic and deceitful owner?

Wow. It's just incredible to me that people say these sort of things after a guy has owned the team less than 18 months.


What have they done in those 18 months to make you think they are on the right path?

BC talked a good game about winning when he came in, now he's standing pat with his "winner" and rolling the dice with HB to sell tickets.

WK has created one of the worst pens in history, extended Narron and pulled the trigger on The Trade.

If thats the first 18 months I don't really want to see another.

pedro
06-06-2007, 08:18 PM
What have they done in those 18 months to make you think they are on the right path?

BC talked a good game about winning when he came in, now he's standing pat with his "winner" and rolling the dice with HB to sell tickets.

WK has created one of the worst pens in history, extended Narron and pulled the trigger on The Trade.

If thats the first 18 months I don't really want to see another.

I just fail to accept the idea that the team inherited by this regime was a contender or even close. We're seeing that now with the way they're playing.

From where I sit the biggest thing that hasn't changed is the Cincinnati fans fine sense of melodrama.

M2
06-06-2007, 08:22 PM
I don't get the impression Bob Castellini is either apathetic or deceitful.

I think he grossly underestimated the size of the bear trap into which he leapt, but, unlike his immediate predecessor, I imagine this team's losses weigh on him.

Marc D
06-06-2007, 08:24 PM
I just fail to accept the idea that the team inherited by this regime was a contender or even close. We're seeing that now with the way they're playing.

From where I sit the biggest thing that hasn't changed is the Cincinnati fans fine sense of melodrama.


I'm not even measuring by W's and L's. I see no benchmarks along the way that tell me they have a clue. If thats melodrama to you then so be it, people probably defended Dan O and Miley up till the last day as well.

Ltlabner
06-06-2007, 08:24 PM
I don't get the impression Bob Castellini is either apathetic or deceitful.

I think he grossly underestimated the size of the bear trap into which he leapt, but, unlike his immediate predecessor, I imagine this team's losses weigh on him.

Couldn't agree more.

We all knew this entire orginization was a disaster from the top to the bottom. That the men BCast hired haven't been perfect in revamping an entire "corporate culture" in 18 months and he hasn't rashly fired them to satisfied the mob is not "proof" of him being apathetic or decietful.

My father and I were sitting in section 220 a while back. The section is right next to BCasts box. It was one of the many rough nights for the Reds and BCast was pacing and looked like he wanted to puke. I don't mean to say this takes the place of actual performance, but I doubt Uncle Carl would have broken a sweat in such a situation.

pedro
06-06-2007, 08:26 PM
I don't get the impression Bob Castellini is either apathetic or deceitful.

I think he grossly underestimated the size of the bear trap into which he leapt, but, unlike his immediate predecessor, I imagine this team's losses weigh on him.

I think the hot start the Reds got off too last year may have given Castellini the impression that the Reds were a lot closer to success that they really were which really wasn't the best thing that could have happened under the circumstances.

Stormy
06-06-2007, 08:30 PM
I just fail to accept the idea that the team inherited by this regime was a contender or even close. We're seeing that now with the way they're playing.

Agreed. I do think that Krivsky has somehow taken the inherently bad product, and actually managed to make it worse (and if not for the saving grace of taking fliers on Phillips and Hamilton, he'd likely already be on the precipice of meriting dismissal).

However, as much as I find his decision making process and his philosophical underpinnings suspect, I think he deserves a chance to define his tenure by how he handles his upcoming duties a.) The 2007 Draft b.) The transitioning to the development of what should be an imminent youth movement c.) How he manages to disassemble the remnant of a sunken team, and how he uses his payflex and personnel to rebuild it. At that point, we'll undoubtedly know whether we have a GM who has learned from past indiscretions, or a hopeless case. Let's just hope he doesn't destroy the future, as well as the present, in the interim.

As for BCast, I simply don't see how anyone can make a conclusive derogatory judgment regarding his brief tenure, at this juncture. I don't like many of the early returns, nor do I agree with many of the decisions, but I find it premature to make a sweeping proclamation about this 'regime', much less do I feel comfortable calling it "deceitful or apathetic" (even though I completely share Marc D's utter disdain for the way this organization is seemingly being steered).

pedro
06-06-2007, 08:35 PM
I'm not even measuring by W's and L's. I see no benchmarks along the way that tell me they have a clue. If thats melodrama to you then so be it, people probably defended Dan O and Miley up till the last day as well.

I sure think picking up Phillips and Hamilton off the scrap heap and flipping WMP for Arroyo were pretty decent moves and moves that help build a foundation for this team. But I guess those aren't positive "benchmarks" are they? It's a lot easier IMO to sit around and say they should have done better and they are a bunch of lying morons than it is to give any sort of fair evaluation of what has really occurred both good and bad doing their tenure.

So a lot of Krivsky's moves to solidify the bullpen and bench haven't worked? They sure haven't crippled the teams future or present either, despite the loud protests to the contrary.

As for DanO and Miley, I'm not sure who was in their camp until the end but it sure wasn't me.

pedro
06-06-2007, 08:38 PM
Agreed. I do think that Krivsky has somehow taken the inherently bad product, and actually managed to make it worse (and if not for the saving grace of taking fliers on Phillips and Hamilton, he'd likely already be on the precipice of meriting dismissal).

However, as much as I find his decision making process and his philosophical underpinnings suspect, I think he deserves a chance to define his tenure by how he handles his upcoming duties a.) The 2007 Draft b.) The transitioning to the development of what should be an imminent youth movement c.) How he manages to disassemble the remnant of a sunken team, and how he uses his payflex and personnel to rebuild it. At that point, we'll undoubtedly know whether we have a GM who has learned from past indiscretions, or a hopeless case. Let's just hope he doesn't destroy the future, as well as the present, in the interim.

As for BCast, I simply don't see how anyone can make a conclusive derogatory judgment regarding his brief tenure, at this juncture. I don't like many of the early returns, nor do I agree with many of the decisions, but I find it premature to make a sweeping proclamation about this 'regime', much less do I feel comfortable calling it "deceitful or apathetic" (even though I completely share Marc D's utter disdain for the way this organization is seemingly being steered).

I think that's a fair assessment. Although I really don't think the team is any worse than last year, they're just playing more to their level (or below it actually). Last year was a mirage that set up Krivsky to be judged harshly this year when they didn't, once again, overachieve.

M2
06-06-2007, 08:38 PM
I think the hot start the Reds got off too last year may have given Castellini the impression that the Reds were a lot closer to success that they really were which really wasn't the best thing that could have happened under the circumstances.

Yep. Mix in blind optimism (Hollywood has conditioned us to believe a champion lurks in every ragtag bunch) and you've got an owner who's likely stupefied at the moment.

The real question for Castellini is how radical is he willing to get? If he takes a conservative approach then he's looking at five or six years before the Reds develop enough kids to be a real factor and that's only if the franchise gets serious about a rebuild starting this summer (and by that I mean doing a lot more than joining the concall for the draft).

The key is he's got to get past the denial stage. This half-rebuild, half-contend model needs to get whacked with a sledgehammer.

LINEDRIVER
06-06-2007, 08:58 PM
On sports talk tonight, Paul Daugherty virtually interrogated Krivsky about some of the moves the club has made recently. He grilled him about failing to bring Hamilton to Colorodo for the last game of the series Sunday, when he was eligible. He asked him why it took so long to bring up Bailey and called him out for moving Livingston (off a very good outting) back to Louisville for a guy (McBeth) that has yet deliver a major league pitch. Wayne got a little flustered, and even brushed off one comment by saying the topic was "inside baseball stuff" that we would not understand.

And, btw, I applaud Krivsky for coming in and facing the music as well. I have been a supporter of ownership since they took over, but I am getting a little tired of BC's vanishing act after the bold words he spoke in his first press conference.

I applaud Doc for taking the path of most resistance and chewing Kriv's butt for awhile. I didn't hear the interview but it sounds like Kriv might of been squirming like a nightcrawler on a hot griddle.

Kriv's comment along the lines of 'inside baseball stuff and we wouldnt understand' bugs me a bit considering it came just a couple of days after he admonished the unwashed masses with his 'have a wider lens' comment when the Josh Hamilton not in Colorado situation was brought up.

If you'll remember....

Wayne Krivsky said he didn't think it was best for Hamilton to fly out here (Denver) for one game.

"It didn’t seem like the wise and prudent thing to do to go through all that travel for one game. If he’d been eligible for Friday that would be a different," Krivsky said. "Based on everything he went through physically, it didn’t make sense to do it for one game. I'm sure I'll get criticized for that, but that goes with the territory -- have a little wider lens than one game, you’ve got to put it all together and it’s the smart thing to do."

IMO, Kriv is coming off like a jerk. Perhaps its just the reality setting in that he is overwhelmed, inexperienced and unprepared for the task at hand.

Sea Ray
06-06-2007, 08:59 PM
I'm at a loss as to why this team is worse after WK took over. He's added some nice parts, Arroyo, Phillips, Hamilton, Gonzalas, Hatteberg yet the team on the field is worse than ever.

That being said, Paul should have grilled him on all the multiyear contracts he's given aging veterans (Castro, Stanton, Cormier, Maybe even Freel and Weathers). If he didn't delve into that then Paul gave WK a pass

Ltlabner
06-06-2007, 09:00 PM
http://www.700wlw.com/cc-common/podcast.html

Here's a link to the actual interview. It's on the 700wlw page. Scroll down almost to the bottom of the page. It's on the right under the header "Late Night on Demand"

Matt700wlw
06-06-2007, 09:05 PM
http://www.700wlw.com/cc-common/podcast.html

Here's a link to the actual interview. It's on the 700wlw page. Scroll down almost to the bottom of the page. It's on the right under the header "Late Night on Demand"

This podcasting seems to be a hit!

Heath
06-06-2007, 09:07 PM
My father and I were sitting in section 220 a while back. The section is right next to BCasts box. It was one of the many rough nights for the Reds and BCast was pacing and looked like he wanted to puke. I don't mean to say this takes the place of actual performance, but I doubt Uncle Carl would have broken a sweat in such a situation.

Uncle Carl wouldn't have broken a sweat since he was probably in his Cincinnati Mansion sleeping.

Give the new guy a break.

flyer85
06-06-2007, 09:08 PM
Wayne got a little flustered, and even brushed off one comment by saying the topic was "inside baseball stuff" that we would not understand.

WK is full of you know what.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 09:14 PM
IMO, Kriv is coming off like a jerk. Perhaps its just the reality setting in that he is overwhelmed, inexperienced and unprepared for the task at hand.

I 100% agree with this comment. He's gone full-on Donald Rumsfeld since this team's fortunes turned sour, and that usually means one thing: he actually DOESN'T have a handle on things.

Guys who have a handle on things don't tell reporters and fans to buzz off and mind their own business; guys with things to hide say stuff like that.

He's coming off like a total incompetent right now, both in word and deed.

Truthfully, I don't give a damn about Castellini; he's here, he's not going anywhere. It's up to the GM to work within the parameters, and the parameters here in Cincy payroll-wise are very manageable. I place virtually all of this at Wayne's feet; the guy is simply not up to the task. It took most folks here 6 months to sign DanO's death writ, but for whatever reason (I honestly don't know), Wayne gets pass after pass. I really want to understand why folks are still okay with Wayne--I simply can't untangle the thought process that says he needs more time. Where (and more importantly, why) do you draw the line where you draw it for Krivsky? When is enough enough? Or does he have carte blanche?

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 09:14 PM
Since Krivsky took over:

1B is better than it was with Casey.
2B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
SS is better than it was with Lopez.
3B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
Catcher is better than it would be if LaRue was behind the plate.
CF is better than it was with Griffey.
LF is the same.
RF is better this year with Griffey than it would be with Kearns, or maybe it's a push.
The #1 pitcher (Arroyo) is better than it was with Harang as #1
The #2 pitcher (Harang) is better than it was with Milton as #2
The #3 pitcher (Lohse) is better than it was with Ortiz as #3
The #4 pitcher (Belisle) is better than it was with Claussen as #4
The choices at #5 are better than what there was to choose from with Hudson or Ramirez or whoever.
The bullpen is as bad as it was then at the moment, but there are better prospects in AAA and AA and at the Major League Level than there was then.

The Manager's the same....maybe that needs to change.

Some fans impatience remains the same.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 09:18 PM
He's coming off like a total incompetent right now, both in word and deed.



I think the fans are coming off as totally incompetent right now both in word and deed.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 09:19 PM
I think the fans are coming off as totally incompetent right now both in word and deed.

This kind of crap is what's not needed in the ORG.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 09:21 PM
This kind of crap is what's not needed in the ORG.

It's your quote about Krivsky.

The reality is: none of us here knows what it takes to be a G.M. and to expect a turnaround in 18 months is not a realistic expectation. To publicly call a G.M. incompetent on a forum to REDS' baseball fans who can't achieve this unrealistic goal of yours is irresponsible.

Always Red
06-06-2007, 09:22 PM
I applaud Daugherty for getting out from behind the typewriter and the shadows to take on the general manager. I never hear Jim Rome or Lance McAllister, or Tom Gamble do that in their haste to kiss posterior whenever a live guest graces their airwaves.

And, btw, I applaud Krivsky for coming in and facing the music as well. I have been a supporter of ownership since they took over, but I am getting a little tired of BC's vanishing act after the bold words he spoke in his first press conference.



I used to enjoy listening to Dan O'Brien talk with Lance. O'B did not need to do that, yet he always took the time to do so, on a regular basis. I did not hear Doc's interview, but Lance was never very combative with O'B, and why would he be, if he ever wanted O'B to come on the show again?

OnBaseMachine
06-06-2007, 09:22 PM
Tomorrow will play a huge part in how I feel about Castellini and Krivsky and crew. Why tomorrow? Tomorrow is the baseball draft, and the Reds have four picks in the top two rounds, and eight picks in the top five rounds. If the Reds decide to go the cheap route and overdraft players like Lindner and crew did last time they had multiple picks in the early rounds (2002) then we'll know they're not in it to win. If they draft the BPA and don't worry about the money then I will feel like they are 100% committed to winning.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 09:23 PM
It's your quote about Krivsky.

Unreal. Yep. This is the return to the Redszone Golden Age that you all were hoping for with the reconfiguration: "I know you are but what am I?" responses.

Ltlabner
06-06-2007, 09:25 PM
I 100% agree with this comment. He's gone full-on Donald Rumsfeld since this team's fortunes turned sour, and that usually means one thing: he actually DOESN'T have a handle on things.

Where (and more importantly, why) do you draw the line where you draw it for Krivsky? When is enough enough? Or does he have carte blanche?

I'm looking forward to actually listening to the interview before taking Kriv to task for being snippy. Maybe he was being a jerk, but I'd rather hear it with my own ears before taking it for grated he's going into "freak out" mode.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested Wayne has carte blance. You know that FCB. Nice red herring. I'd say the upcomming draft and how he deals with the trade deadline will go a long, long way to either getting the ship back on track, or sealing his fate. Is that unreasonable?

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 09:27 PM
I'm looking forward to actually listening to the interview before taking Kriv to task for being snippy. Maybe he was being a jerk, but I'd rather hear it with my own ears before taking it for grated he's going into "freak out" mode.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested Wayne has carte blance. You know that FCB. Nice red herring. I'd say the upcomming draft and how he deals with the trade deadline will go a long, long way to either getting the ship back on track, or sealing his fate. Is that unreasonable?

I'll take Santo Alcala's word for it--he's a longtime poster I trust. I wouldn't take everyone's word for it, but I'll take Santo's.

GAC
06-06-2007, 09:27 PM
I don't get the impression Bob Castellini is either apathetic or deceitful.

I think he grossly underestimated the size of the bear trap into which he leapt, but, unlike his immediate predecessor, I imagine this team's losses weigh on him.

Good post M2.

This FO knows exactly what they inherited. I personally think they too got caught up in the "false" optimism that this team gave everyone last year when they competed in this very weak division. They felt they could maintain the status quo and possibly compete in '07 with some minor tweeks (while keeping their fingers crossed).

I fully understand the fan's frustration for the last several years, but there is no quick fix for this organization. You're not going to win by signing marginal veteran players to fill the "holes" on this team. And I hope that what is going on with this team this season is a wakeup call to this FO.

While they do have some talented core players on this team, the real problem is still within their farm system and having a relaible source/stream of young talent to draw on. And what talent we do have down on the farm (Bailey, Votto, Bruce, etc) may/may not be ready. And that's why they are trying to patch together or fill those needs with marginal veteran players (Hatteberg, Castro, Moeller, Conine, Weathers, Stanton).

There just is no quick fix for this organization. You can't rush what young players/talent that you do have in the minors. You have to show patience. They simply need to have good drafts, acquire young talent (via trades) and really commit to a plan to rebuild/restructure this organization.

dougdirt
06-06-2007, 09:27 PM
If things are 'inside baseball stuff that we wouldnt understand' then please feel free to enlighten us Wayne. I agree with sending Livingston down. He is not a MLB starter. He just doesnt have the stuff. He got eaten alive in AAA tongiht, 4.1ip, 10h, 1bb, 7 runs, 3K. That said, his other decisions make me scratch my head an awful lot.

dougdirt
06-06-2007, 09:29 PM
Tomorrow will play a huge part in how I feel about Castellini and Krivsky and crew. Why tomorrow? Tomorrow is the baseball draft, and the Reds have four picks in the top two rounds, and eight picks in the top five rounds. If the Reds decide to go the cheap route and overdraft players like Lindner and crew did last time they had multiple picks in the early rounds (2002) then we'll know they're not in it to win. If they draft the BPA and don't worry about the money then I will feel like they are 100% committed to winning.

I am with you on that, but I don't think they will take BPA. Watching Reds live tonight Wayne said, and I am paraphrasing ' I believe in taking the BPA in the draft, but signability plays a role'. So bascially he said, we will take the best player that we can slot in for $XXX,XXX money.

pedro
06-06-2007, 09:38 PM
I haven't listened to this interview but I remember Wayne being on TV not too long ago and he really didn't exactly exude warmth that's for sure.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 09:38 PM
I am with you on that, but I don't think they will take BPA. Watching Reds live tonight Wayne said, and I am paraphrasing ' I believe in taking the BPA in the draft, but signability plays a role'. So bascially he said, we will take the best player that we can slot in for $XXX,XXX money.

Is that a reference to clients that Boras is with specifically?

Have the REDS done OK with Boras clients in the past?

pedro
06-06-2007, 09:41 PM
I am with you on that, but I don't think they will take BPA. Watching Reds live tonight Wayne said, and I am paraphrasing ' I believe in taking the BPA in the draft, but signability plays a role'. So bascially he said, we will take the best player that we can slot in for $XXX,XXX money.

"Signability" isn't always purely about money though. Sometimes players just don't want to be in a certain organization and choose to go to college, or stay in college if they haven't yet used all their eligibility. If you get clear signs from a kid that he won't sign with your team and that kid has some options it's probably best not to draft them IMO, even if they are the best player.

Cyclone792
06-06-2007, 09:45 PM
Agreed. I do think that Krivsky has somehow taken the inherently bad product, and actually managed to make it worse (and if not for the saving grace of taking fliers on Phillips and Hamilton, he'd likely already be on the precipice of meriting dismissal).

However, as much as I find his decision making process and his philosophical underpinnings suspect, I think he deserves a chance to define his tenure by how he handles his upcoming duties a.) The 2007 Draft b.) The transitioning to the development of what should be an imminent youth movement c.) How he manages to disassemble the remnant of a sunken team, and how he uses his payflex and personnel to rebuild it. At that point, we'll undoubtedly know whether we have a GM who has learned from past indiscretions, or a hopeless case. Let's just hope he doesn't destroy the future, as well as the present, in the interim.

Currently, with the exception of the Drew Stubbs fiasco in last year's draft, I'm rather satisfied with the direction of the Reds' farm system. The system is in better shape now than it has been in years, and the Reds have a nice collection of talent. It's not as much as I'd prefer, but it's moving in the right direction. I have no idea how much credit Krivsky deserves for the surging farm, but he's been at helm during the surge so he deserves at least some credit.

On the flip side, I'm not at all satisfied with the direction of the big league club, especially this season, and this bullpen that Krivsky pieced together is a massive symbol of the immense problems with the current roster construction.

Now ... the next seven to eight weeks are crucial in my evaluations of Krivsky, specifically regarding the draft and the upcoming trading deadline. The type of decisions this organization makes between now and July 31st may go a nice, long way to determining the aptitude and competence of the current regime.

If the Reds are able to turn up some good fortune tomorrow and Friday in the draft, then that'll a major point in Krivsky's favor. Likewise, if the proper veteran players are sent packing prior to the trading deadline for youth and also with the underlying implication that the youth movement and rebuilding period is real and being utilized, then that'll be another major point in Krivsky's favor.

But if Krivsky screws up one or both of those aspects, then my patience for him will effectively be gone and it's quite likely that I'll be a voice in the corner calling for his dismissal.

Cyclone792
06-06-2007, 09:51 PM
"Signability" isn't always purely about money though. Sometimes players just don't want to be in a certain organization and choose to go to college, or stay in college if they haven't yet used all their eligibility. If you get clear signs from a kid that he won't sign with your team and that kid has some options it's probably best not to draft them IMO, even if they are the best player.

If it's known that a player will just flat refuse to sign for a specific organization, then it's likely best to pass him up.

But my key thing is if a player is willing to play for whatever organization drafts him and gives him the money he's calling for, and if he's the best player available on the board when it's your turn, then you better be drafting him. I've never understood why teams like the Reds have no problems wasting millions of dollars on questionable big league players, but then penny-pinch a couple hundred thousand dollars in the amateur draft. It's the absolute epitomy of shooting yourself in the foot repeatedly each season.

Instead of allocating money for payroll that will subsequently be wasted on garbage, allocate whatever chunk of that money is necessary to the draft with the mindset of grabbing the best talent out there that won't spurn your organization for being well ... your organization.

Boss-Hog
06-06-2007, 09:51 PM
I think the fans are coming off as totally incompetent right now both in word and deed.


This kind of crap is what's not needed in the ORG.


Unreal. Yep. This is the return to the Redszone Golden Age that you all were hoping for with the reconfiguration: "I know you are but what am I?" responses.

Both of you need to take this personal stuff off the board. You're ruining an otherwise perfectly good baseball thread and we're not going to put up with that.

pedro
06-06-2007, 09:52 PM
As disappointing as the Reds are I think sometime people forget that Krivsky inherited a team that had planned to have Tony Womack at 2nd base, no established 3rd baseman, Rich Aurilia at 1st , one decent starting pitcher, no bullpen, and the worst defense in the league. That's a lot of stuff to overcome IMO.

pedro
06-06-2007, 09:55 PM
If it's known that a player will just flat refuse to sign for a specific organization, then it's likely best to pass him up.

But my key thing is if a player is willing to play for whatever organization drafts him and gives him the money he's calling for, and if he's the best player available on the board when it's your turn, then you better be drafting him. I've never understood why teams like the Reds have no problems wasting millions of dollars on questionable big league players, but then penny-pinch a couple hundred thousand dollars in the amateur draft. It's the absolute epitomy of shooting yourself in the foot repeatedly each season.

Instead of allocating money for payroll that will subsequently be wasted on garbage, allocate whatever chunk of that money is necessary to the draft with the mindset of grabbing the best talent out there that won't spurn your organization for being well ... your organization.

Agreed. IIRC, the Reds did a much better job of signing those whom they did draft last year than in years past and I'll be curious as to how open their pocketbooks are this year as it will tell us a lot about Castellini's true intentions IMO.

flyer85
06-06-2007, 09:56 PM
"Signability" isn't always purely about money though. with the new rules the signability issue just isn't that big of a deal, especially if next years draft is expected to be better.

pedro
06-06-2007, 09:57 PM
with the new rules the signability issue just isn't that big of a deal, especially if next years draft is expected to be better.

not sure what you mean. explain?

dougdirt
06-06-2007, 09:58 PM
with the new rules the signability issue just isn't that big of a deal, especially if next years draft is expected to be better.

I wouldnt count on that one. Guys can hold out, if they dont get their money by August 15th (or whatever the date is) they can go the Boras route and play for the FT Worth Cats the next season until the draft comes around again.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 10:01 PM
Since Krivsky took over:

1B is better than it was with Casey.
2B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
SS is better than it was with Lopez.
3B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
Catcher is better than it would be if LaRue was behind the plate.
CF is better than it was with Griffey.
LF is the same.
RF is better this year with Griffey than it would be with Kearns, or maybe it's a push.
The #1 pitcher (Arroyo) is better than it was with Harang as #1
The #2 pitcher (Harang) is better than it was with Milton as #2
The #3 pitcher (Lohse) is better than it was with Ortiz as #3
The #4 pitcher (Belisle) is better than it was with Claussen as #4
The choices at #5 are better than what there was to choose from with Hudson or Ramirez or whoever.
The bullpen is as bad as it was then at the moment, but there are better prospects in AAA and AA and at the Major League Level than there was then.

The Manager's the same....maybe that needs to change.

Some fans impatience remains the same.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with much here?

Just a few things about the before and after Krivsky takeover:

1) Hatteberg is not better than Casey. Equal, at best. I'd still take Casey.

2) Felipe's 2005 was pretty solid. Let's wait to see how Gonzalez fares the rest of the season.

3) WK had nothing to do with Encarnacion playing 3rd this season. Don Rickels as GM would have the same result as Krivsky in this area.

4) Hamilton over Griffey's 2005? You sure?

5) Dunn has regressed since 2005.

6) Arroyo hasn't been too sharp lately. Might want to rethink that.

7) Ortiz and Lohse are pretty similar. That one is pretty much a wash.

8) Again, not sure why Kriv is getting props for Belisle. Pee Wee Herman could have called him up and put him in the rotation. What next, he's going to get credit for Homer?

9) The BP is MUCH worse than 2005.

Phhhl
06-06-2007, 10:02 PM
I was paraphrasing Wayne with the "inside baseball" stuff. Basically, it was when he talked about intangibles scouts and baseball people see that don't show up in the box score. He was referring to Homer being ready to debut in the major leagues. Daugherty strongly suggested the move to bypass him earlier in the season was motivated by suppressing his major league service (money). Krivsky denied that. A caller later commented that Krivsky seemed to be big leaguing the listening audience with that response, and I have to agree.

The tone of this thing was civil. But, I do think it was contentious and interesting.

Kc61
06-06-2007, 10:15 PM
There are a number of key things we will learn soon.

1 -- Will ownership spend on the draft? This is absolutely key. If they overdraft players due to lower salary demands, this is just a disaster. I think they'll step up.

2 -- Are the Reds willing to make fundamental changes to the team, even if unpopular with the fans? I'm talking primarily about the outfield. Other than Hamilton, I don't see a future with the other guys. As much as folks like Griffey and Dunn, they are both DHs right now and take up a lot of salary space.

3-- Will the Reds get a proven field manager? It's really pretty simple. Over the past many years, the Reds won with proven managers. Piniella, Dave Johnson, Jack McKeon. They lost with guys like Knight, Boone, and Narron.

Draft well; make key personnel changes; get a winning manager. If they aren't willing to do these things, it is going to be a long dry spell.

Blimpie
06-06-2007, 10:17 PM
As disappointing as the Reds are I think sometime people forget that Krivsky inherited a team that had planned to have Tony Womack at 2nd base, no established 3rd baseman, Rich Aurilia at 1st , one decent starting pitcher, no bullpen, and the worst defense in the league. That's a lot of stuff to overcome IMO.Excellent reminder...but Krivsky had to know those little nuggets when he eagerly accepted the GM position. All this with a brand new owner-who made it painfully clear-that he wanted to "win now" in lieu of the "rebuild" model.

pedro
06-06-2007, 10:17 PM
I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with much here?

Just a few things about the before and after Krivsky takeover:

1) Hatteberg is not better than Casey. Equal, at best. I'd still take Casey.

2) Felipe's 2005 was pretty solid. Let's wait to see how Gonzalez fares the rest of the season.

3) WK had nothing to do with Encarnacion playing 3rd this season. Don Rickels as GM would have the same result as Krivsky in this area.

4) Hamilton over Griffey's 2005? You sure?

5) Dunn has regressed since 2005.

6) Arroyo hasn't been too sharp lately. Might want to rethink that.

7) Ortiz and Lohse are pretty similar. That one is pretty much a wash.

8) Again, not sure why Kriv is getting props for Belisle. Pee Wee Herman could have called him up and put him in the rotation. What next, he's going to get credit for Homer?

9) The BP is MUCH worse than 2005.

You'd rather have Casey right now?

Honestly, that strains credibility to the limit.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 10:18 PM
There are a number of key things we will learn soon.

1 -- Will ownership spend on the draft? This is absolutely key. If they overdraft players due to lower salary demands, this is just a disaster. I think they'll step up.

2 -- Are the Reds willing to make fundamental changes to the team, even if unpopular with the fans? I'm talking primarily about the outfield. Other than Hamilton, I don't see a future with the other guys. As much as folks like Griffey and Dunn, they are both DHs right now and take up a lot of salary space.

3-- Will the Reds get a proven field manager? It's really pretty simple. Over the past many years, the Reds won with proven managers. Piniella, Dave Johnson, Jack McKeon. They lost with guys like Knight, Boone, and Narron.

Draft well; make key personnel changes; get a winning manager. If they aren't willing to do these things, it is going to be a long dry spell.

My only problem with "wait for the draft" is that when they draft poorly people will say, indignantly, "Well, how can you KNOW how they drafted; you'll have to give 'em at least 3 or 4 years before you know."

Yeah, that's not the answer I like either.

pedro
06-06-2007, 10:19 PM
My only problem with "wait for the draft" is that when they draft poorly people will say, indignantly, "Well, how can you KNOW how they drafted; you'll have to give 'em at least 3 or 4 years before you know."

Yeah, that's not the answer I like either.

I think the tell tail sign, at least as to how it relates to Castellini's ownership, won't as much be who they draft as how they handle the money side of it. That we will know by August 15th as they have to have everyone signed by then under the new rules.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 10:21 PM
I'm sorry, but did you give this post much thought?

Just a few things about the before and after Krivsky takeover:

1) Hatteberg is not better than Casey. Equal, at best. I'd still take Casey.

2) Felipe's 2005 was pretty solid. Let's wait to see how Gonzalez fares the rest of the season.

3) WK had nothing to do with Encarnacion playing 3rd this season. Don Rickels as GM would have the same result as Krivsky in this area.

4) Hamilton over Griffey's 2005? You sure?

5) Dunn has regressed since 2005.

6) Arroyo hasn't been too sharp lately. Might want to rethink that.

7) Ortiz and Lohse are pretty similar. That one is pretty much a wash.

8) Again, not sure why Kriv is getting props for Belisle. Pee Wee Herman could have called him up and put him in the rotation. What next, he's going to get credit for Homer?

9) The BP is MUCH worse than 2005.

I'm talking about 2007 vs. 2007.

1) Have you seen Casey's numbers this year?

2) Have you seen Lopez' SS numbers this year, offensively and defensively.

3) Wayne K still gets credit for EdE playing 3rd Base this year by not trading him.

4) I know you know how Junior's defense would look in Center this year, and maybe the extra rest he gets by being in right has helped to keep him healthy and improve his hitting. CF is a defensive position. Though Hamilton has not been good there, either, as he's learning at the Major League level after being out of baseball for a few years, he's going to end up with a better year there then Junior would have given us had he stayed there the whole year.

5) Dunn is having a better year this year than in 2005 (his defense has improved and his OPS is higher), but I had said anyway that it's the same.

6) Arroyo hasn't been too sharp lately, but that doesn't matter, as I said he's better than Harang as the #1, and so far this year he's been better than Harang.

7) Ortiz and Lohse are pretty similar, you say. You're right. They have been.

8) Krivsky gets credit for Belisle because he didn't trade him away and he gave him the chance to start. He'd get the blame if he was pitching for another team right now and doing well, so he gets the credit, too.

9) I'd say they are closer to the same:
(2005: .801OPS, 4.75ERA)
(2007: .763OPS, 4.92ERA)

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 10:21 PM
I think the tell tail sign, at least as to how it relates to Castellini's ownership, won't as much be who they draft as how they handle the money side of it.

I think it will be both.

And I think you can tell, in general, whether a team has drafted well or poorly the day of. Yeah, you might have an outlier or two, but talent generally speaks for itself.

Stormy
06-06-2007, 10:23 PM
Currently, with the exception of the Drew Stubbs fiasco in last year's draft, I'm rather satisfied with the direction of the Reds' farm system. The system is in better shape now than it has been in years, and the Reds have a nice collection of talent. It's not as much as I'd prefer, but it's moving in the right direction. I have no idea how much credit Krivsky deserves for the surging farm, but he's been at helm during the surge so he deserves at least some credit.

On the flip side, I'm not at all satisfied with the direction of the big league club, especially this season, and this bullpen that Krivsky pieced together is a massive symbol of the immense problems with the current roster construction.

Now ... the next seven to eight weeks are crucial in my evaluations of Krivsky, specifically regarding the draft and the upcoming trading deadline. The type of decisions this organization makes between now and July 31st may go a nice, long way to determining the aptitude and competence of the current regime.

If the Reds are able to turn up some good fortune tomorrow and Friday in the draft, then that'll a major point in Krivsky's favor. Likewise, if the proper veteran players are sent packing prior to the trading deadline for youth and also with the underlying implication that the youth movement and rebuilding period is real and being utilized, then that'll be another major point in Krivsky's favor.

But if Krivsky screws up one or both of those aspects, then my patience for him will effectively be gone and it's quite likely that I'll be a voice in the corner calling for his dismissal.

Wow! Your summation depicts exactly my own sentiments about the current state of this franchise, and where it is potentially headed (in both best and worst case scenarios). The 'surge' of the minor league system is one of the primary reasons I believe that we could potentially have a more effective, and less protracted, rebuilding process at hand than many expect.

However, the seeming enormous disconnect between the promising, if modest, minor league renaissance, and the misaligned construction of numerous units within the overall MLB roster, creates apprehension. There's a concern that the actual 'process' of the reconstruction could very easily be derailed if the current GM/FO venture down the wrong path in terms of draft philosophy, roster purges, transition to the youth movement, and offseason allocation of budget and personnel targets.

Great post, Cyclone. The remnant of this draft period, personnel movement toward the deadline, and develomental season, will go a long way towards determining if my first cautious optimism regarding the future of this franchise in years is misguided, or not.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 10:25 PM
You'd rather have Casey right now?

Honestly, that strains credibility to the limit.

No...here was the quote:


Since Krivsky took over:

1B is better than it was with Casey.

I'm saying that I would take Casey over Hatteberg in 2005. Maybe I misphrased it, but I was saying it's pretty much a push (Casey 2005 vs Hatte 2007) but I would take Casey 2005.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 10:29 PM
I'm talking about 2007 vs. 2007.

1) Have you seen Casey's numbers this year?

2) Have you seen Lopez' SS numbers this year, offensively and defensively.

3) Wayne K still gets credit for EdE playing 3rd Base this year by not trading him.

4) I know you know how Junior's defense would look in Center this year, and maybe the extra rest he gets by being in right has helped to keep him healthy and improve his hitting. CF is a defensive position. Though Hamilton has not been good there, either, as he's learning at the Major League level after being out of baseball for a few years, he's going to end up with a better year there then Junior would have given us had he stayed there the whole year.

5) Dunn is having a better year this year than in 2005 (his defense has improved and his OPS is higher), but I had said anyway that it's the same.

6) Arroyo hasn't been too sharp lately, but that doesn't matter, as I said he's better than Harang as the #1, and so far this year he's been better than Harang.

7) Ortiz and Lohse are pretty similar, you say. You're right. They have been.

8) Krivsky gets credit for Belisle because he didn't trade him away and he gave him the chance to start. He'd get the blame if he was pitching for another team right now and doing well, so he gets the credit, too.

9) I'd say they are closer to the same:
(2005: .801OPS, 4.75ERA)
(2007: .763OPS, 4.92ERA)

If you are taking '07 vs '07, then that is ridiculous. But I see where your analysis is coming from then, since EdE is a huge winner over Randa the Retired and Mercker has had TJ surgery and obviously a large downgrade from even Coffey.

Seriously though, your analysis would then state that Krivsky has made this team better than the '27 Yanks since Hatteberg is a better player in 2007 than Gehrig.

pedro
06-06-2007, 10:30 PM
No...here was the quote:



I'm saying that I would take Casey over Hatteberg in 2005. Maybe I misphrased it, but I was saying it's pretty much a push (Casey 2005 vs Hatte 2007) but I would take Casey 2005.

Well how exactly is Krivsky supposed to sign the 2005 version of Sean Casey?

Either way, the fact remains that Sean Casey was traded by Dan O'Brien and the Reds really had no first baseman when he was hired so I'm not terribly sure how acquiring Hatteberg has been a bad move. The guys not a star but he's been pretty steady for the Reds.

Marc D
06-06-2007, 10:36 PM
I sure think picking up Phillips and Hamilton off the scrap heap and flipping WMP for Arroyo were pretty decent moves and moves that help build a foundation for this team. But I guess those aren't positive "benchmarks" are they? It's a lot easier IMO to sit around and say they should have done better and they are a bunch of lying morons than it is to give any sort of fair evaluation of what has really occurred both good and bad doing their tenure.

So a lot of Krivsky's moves to solidify the bullpen and bench haven't worked? They sure haven't crippled the teams future or present either, despite the loud protests to the contrary.

As for DanO and Miley, I'm not sure who was in their camp until the end but it sure wasn't me.


I've given WK credit for his dumpster diving many times. BP and it looks like hamilton so far have been great moves. WK was fortunate enough to also get career years from Arroyo and Ross, they both now seem to remember who they are. Lets hope hamilton doesn't relapse or something because then WK is down to 1.

The list of the negatives doesn't need to be rehashed but to simply play The Trade and this bullpen off as good tries that fell just a bit short of the mark is disengenious at best.

Bottom line is the list of cons is far longer than the list of pro's for WK. If you want to wait 3-4 years to reach a conclusion that your perogative. It didn't take much longer than 18 months for anyone to see Dan O was in over his head and its pretty obvious to me that WK is in the same boat.

When this trade deadline comes to pass and he's swung and missed yet again there can be no doubt. If he knocks it out of the park I'll gladly start to change my opinion of him.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 10:41 PM
When this trade deadline comes to pass and he's swung and missed yet again there can be no doubt.

Oh, there'll be doubters. Wayne's the most teflon of Reds' GMs. I've never known a GM to get such a wide berth before. It's absolutely mystifying to me. I simply refuse to believe that it's just me being "impatient"--I know I'm not alone.

red-in-la
06-06-2007, 10:44 PM
I think the tell tail sign, at least as to how it relates to Castellini's ownership, won't as much be who they draft as how they handle the money side of it. That we will know by August 15th as they have to have everyone signed by then under the new rules.

Remember the quick signing......for a bunch of money? I think his name was Chris Gruler......now, that worked out well.:D

paulrichjr
06-06-2007, 10:46 PM
I'm not sure yet how Wayne gets credit for the "surge" on the farm. If anyone should be getting credit it would have to be DanO. I don't miss DanO but I have often said and will say once again that DanO stated that he was building for the future via the draft and he did a fairly good job doing so. People judge DanO by his lack of vision for the big club but in fact I would say that an owner that obviously had tighter purse strings dictated the approach that DanO took. He did exactly what he said he would do and frankly I can say without a doubt that this team WOULD NOT be any worse than they are right now if he were still here. We have the worst record in the NL and we are not far from being the worst in all of baseball.

I despise the win now approach that Kriv's was mandated to do because it almost never works. The Indians did things the right way and are reaping huge rewards this year and will do so for the next 5 years. This being said I do not want Krivs fired. I am ready for stability from this organization and you need more than 18 months to turn around a sinking ship. DanO wasn't given a fair shot to work under a new mandate and I don't think Wayne has been either. Narron on the other hand needs to be gone yesterday.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 10:47 PM
I'm not sure yet how Wayne gets credit for the "surge" on the farm. If anyone should be getting credit it would have to be DanO. I don't miss DanO but I have often said and will say once again that DanO stated that he was building for the future via the draft and he did a fairly good job doing so. People judge DanO by his lack of vision for the big club but in fact I would say that an owner that obviously had tighter purse strings dictated the approach that DanO took. He did exactly what he said he would do and frankly I can say without a doubt that this team WOULD NOT be any worse than they are right now if he were still here. We have the worst record in the NL and we are not far from being the worst in all of baseball.

I despise the win now approach that Kriv's was mandated to do because it almost never works. The Indians did things the right way and are reaping huge rewards this year and will do so for the next 5 years. This being said I do not want Krivs fired. I am ready for stability from this organization and you need more than 18 months to turn around a sinking ship. DanO wasn't given a fair shot to work under a new mandate and I don't think Wayne has been either. Narron on the other hand needs to be gone yesterday.

So it's Castellini?

May I recommend following another team till BobC dies?

paulrichjr
06-06-2007, 10:50 PM
So it's Castellini?

May I recommend following another team till BobC dies?

Somehow I am missing something in your post or you are missing something in mine.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 10:50 PM
Seriously though, your analysis would then state that Krivsky has made this team better than the '27 Yanks since Hatteberg is a better player in 2007 than Gehrig.

I never thought of it like that. :D Print the World Series tickets.

flyer85
06-06-2007, 10:50 PM
not sure what you mean. explain?if a first round pick doesn't sign you get the pick right after the following draft.

Example Reds pick 15, if they don't sign the player they will get pick 15A next year. In addition players can't hold out the entire year, they have to the middle of august to sign.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 10:50 PM
Well how exactly is Krivsky supposed to sign the 2005 version of Sean Casey?

Either way, the fact remains that Sean Casey was traded by Dan O'Brien and the Reds really had no first baseman when he was hired so I'm terribly sure how acquiring Hatteberg has been a bad move. The guys not a star but he's been pretty steady for the Reds.

The original post seemed like a comparison between the team before Krivsky got here and the team now. So it would have been the 2005 Casey versus the 2007 Hatteberg.

Bottom line is that this team is battling for the 1st overall pick next year. Not sure how that one slips by Krivsky's Komrades. Or the Krivsky Krew. Or Wayne's World.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 10:53 PM
Somehow I am missing something in your post or you are missing something in mine.

What you're saying is: it's not really Wayne's fault because he's operating under a win now mandate?

Tell me if I'm with you or not.

So my leap in logic says that if it's not Wayne's fault because he's under a mandate, then who is the mandate coming from? Castellini. Therefore, it is Castellini who is making improvement difficult for the Reds. Does that make any sense? I don't know.

pedro
06-06-2007, 10:54 PM
The original post seemed like a comparison between the team before Krivsky got here and the team now. So it would have been the 2005 Casey versus the 2007 Hatteberg.

Bottom line is that this team is battling for the 1st overall pick next year. Not sure how that one slips by Krivsky's Komrades. Or the Krivsky Krew. Or Wayne's World.

Yeah, you can back off of the nick naming. I could come up with a few choice ones myself but I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear them any more than I want to hear yours.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 10:55 PM
If scouts and G.M.'s can't judge a draft the day they make the picks (the majority of them are wrong most of the time if judged by the results of how far a player develops based upon when he was drafted), then how can we as fans, no matter how well informed we think we are, make the same judgement within 2 months of the draft?

You have to give that stuff some time.

I see BA's analysis of the players available and I see less than 1/100th of the information I'd want to know about a player before selecting him.

As I've asked before....Who here on this board has seen in person (not on TV) more than once or twice any of the players who will be selected in the first 2 rounds of this draft?

If you have, please speak up now.

Falls City Beer
06-06-2007, 10:59 PM
If scouts and G.M.'s can't judge a draft the day they make the picks (the majority of them are wrong most of the time if judged by the results of how far a player develops based upon when he was drafted), then how can we as fans, no matter how well informed we think we are, make the same judgement within 2 months of the draft?

You have to give that stuff some time.

I see BA's analysis of the players available and I see less than 1/100th of the information I'd want to know about a player before selecting him.

As I've asked before....Who here on this board has seen in person more than once or twice any of the players who will be selected in the first 2 rounds of this draft?

If you have, please speak up now.

Using that logic, though, you can NEVER take a GM or an organization to task. You perpetually extend them credit they've not earned and don't deserve if you keep delaying evaluation of their work, in the draft, minors, or the MLB team. It's a constant deferral of accountability; then it's a bureaucracy.

Eric_Davis
06-06-2007, 11:00 PM
Seriously though, your analysis would then state that Krivsky has made this team better than the '27 Yanks since Hatteberg is a better player in 2007 than Gehrig.

But, seriously, it's only been 1-1/3 seasons.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 11:04 PM
But, seriously, it's only been 1-1/3 seasons.

I know what you are saying, but it should be what was there BK (Before Krivsky) and what is here now. I cannot believe that Narron has had this much of a negative impact on today's roster if you are correct in saying that Wayne has improved all of those spots.

Don't forget though...Narron was 46-46 with the 2005 team.;)

flyer85
06-06-2007, 11:10 PM
But, seriously, it's only been 1-1/3 seasons.
Wayne has done some good, some bad. A small market GM needs to have a better ratio and hopefully he will get better. It's the fact that he ever saw anything in the likes of Castro, Comier, Stanton, etc that causes my lack of confidence.

Patrick Bateman
06-06-2007, 11:20 PM
1) Hatteberg is not better than Casey. Equal, at best. I'd still take Casey.


7) Ortiz and Lohse are pretty similar. That one is pretty much a wash.

I really have to disagree with these ones. Casey is a great guy, but he's not even a decent use of a roster spot right now. His days as an effective hitter are long gone. He simply has no power.

Hatteberg is hardly a world beater, especially at 1st base, but he's still a pretty effective hitter. He continues to get on base at a huge clip and he has enough occasional power to remain an effective hitter. As a platoon you could get a lot worse production out of a guy. He's probably best as a bench/role player, but he is miles ahead of Casey at this point. There's no comparison.

Again, Ortiz is simply not a major league pitcher. He doesn't fool hitters and he leaves the ball up in the zone. He's basically Milton.

Lohse has been a solid, respectable starter this season. As a general rule, he strikes out more batters, he walks less batters, and he gives up less homers. Of the things Lohse has control over, he is far better than Ortiz. Again, it's no contest. His 4.00 DIPS ERA since joining the Reds atest to that. The trade made for Lohse has bene a good one. For 4M the Reds got a league average starting pitcher which has turned out to be a bargain. Now of course Lohse is a pretty bad bet passed this season and I have no interest giving him loads of money on a long term deal, but comparing him to Ortiz is laughable. As a middle of the roitation starter, Lohse has gotten the job done so far.

The rest of your post, I'll agree with. Krivsky clearly has not gotten the job done this season, and has not spent his assets wisely since last year's mid season.

WVRedsFan
06-06-2007, 11:26 PM
That being said, Paul should have grilled him on all the multiyear contracts he's given aging veterans (Castro, Stanton, Cormier, Maybe even Freel and Weathers). If he didn't delve into that then Paul gave WK a pass

You just answered your earlier question. That is the problem. He banked on Castro being the all-around utility guy without noticing that no one else even wanted him. Why? Because he was in Minnesota earlier? He banked o n Stanton and Cormier being better than what he had without looking at the decline they had suffered. Cormier was a situational lefty and Narron had to use him in other ways. Not good. Stanton ditto. Old guys. Krivsky loves them. HE banked on Freel being an everyday player. Foolish. He gave Weathers the two-year contract because he was there. and cheap (not ragging on Weathers so much as the thought process).

Castellini doesn't run the team. Krivsky does. And I submit to you that he (Krivsky) has very poor judgment (and I will always believe Arroyo and Philllips were lucky choices -- one a player who everyone thought just didn't have it and another who was going to be a reliever).

And mark this down. Give him another year and this organization will be a decade from winning--or more. Can anyone do better? I don't know, but I'm willing to take the chance. Today.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 11:28 PM
I really have to disagree with these ones. Casey is a great guy, but he's not even a decent use of a roster spot right now. His days as an effective hitter are long gone. He simply has no power.

Hatteberg is hardly a world beater, especially at 1st base, but he's still a pretty effective hitter. He continues to get on base at a huge clip and he has enough occasional power to remain an effective hitter. As a platoon you could get a lot worse production out of a guy. He's probably best as a bench/role player, but he is miles ahead of Casey at this point. There's no comparison.

Again, Ortiz is simply not a major league pitcher. He doesn't fool hitters and he leaves the ball up in the zone. He's basically Milton.

Lohse has been a solid, respectable starter this season. As a general rule, he strikes out more batters, he walks less batters, and he gives up less homers. Of the things Lohse has control over, he is far better than Ortiz. Again, it's no contest. His 4.00 DIPS ERA since joining the Reds atest to that. The trade made for Lohse has bene a good one. For 4M the Reds got a league average starting pitcher which has turned out to be a bargain. Now of course Lohse is a pretty bad bet passed this season and I have no interest giving him loads of money on a long term deal, but comparing him to Ortiz is laughable. As a middle of the roitation starter, Lohse has gotten the job done so far.

The rest of your post, I'll agree with. Krivsky clearly has not gotten the job done this season, and has not spent his assets wisely since last year's mid season.

I was comparing Lohse this year to Ortiz of '05. Same with Hatteberg and Casey.

edabbs44
06-06-2007, 11:29 PM
You just answered your earlier question. That is the problem. He banked on Castro being the all-around utility guy without noticing that no one else even wanted him. Why? Because he was in Minnesota earlier? He banked o n Stanton and Cormier being better than what he had without looking at the decline they had suffered. Cormier was a situational lefty and Narron had to use him in other ways. Not good. Stanton ditto. Old guys. Krivsky loves them. HE banked on Freel being an everyday player. Foolish. He gave Weathers the two-year contract because he was there. and cheap (not ragging on Weathers so much as the thought process).

Castellini doesn't run the team. Krivsky does. And I submit to you that he (Krivsky) has very poor judgment (and I will always believe Arroyo and Philllips were lucky choices -- one a player who everyone thought just didn't have it and another who was going to be a reliever).

And mark this down. Give him another year and this organization will be a decade from winning--or more. Can anyone do better? I don't know, but I'm willing to take the chance. Today.

Tremendous post.

Patrick Bateman
06-06-2007, 11:39 PM
I was comparing Lohse this year to Ortiz of '05. Same with Hatteberg and Casey.

Comparing the current players to the ones in '05 don't really tell the story in how well Krivsky has improved the team. Without getting Hatteberg, the Reds weren't going to magically get the production from the '05 version of Casey. It's really quite irrelevant what these guys did before Krivsky came. The improvements should be based on the production of the players since Krivsky came over. Though this isn't your fault, you did follow what ED posted (I misunderstood at first).

Anyways, when Krivsky took over, the situation was quite different than originally stated in this thread. Dunn was the 1st basemen, Pena, Griffey, and Kearns were the OF's. The real competetions should be really Pena vs. Hatteberg and Arroyo vs. crappy 5th starter. Those were the actual changes that Krivsky made since that time.

Regarding Lohse, anyway you look at, he is far better than Ortiz ever was since '05.

Overall, the entire major league team has shown no real signs of improvements since Krivsky took over. I might argue that there are better core players in place than before he took over with guys like Hamilton and Phillips being added, but overall, Krivsky has not gotten the job done.

Aronchis
06-06-2007, 11:41 PM
Sorry, but Cast does run the Reds, he is the one that accepted Krivsky and made him GM. He also can stick his nose in anytime he wants.

He is part of the problem. But he also must be part of the solution.

WVRedsFan
06-06-2007, 11:41 PM
Since Krivsky took over:

1B is better than it was with Casey.

I disagree. It may be a push, but it's not better.

2B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
Agreed.

SS is better than it was with Lopez.
I disagree. We're better defensively slightly (look at Gonzalez' errors), but offensively, Lopez was better and would be doing better here than in that cavern he plays in in Washington.

3B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
Agreed.

Catcher is better than it would be if LaRue was behind the plate.
CF is better than it was with Griffey.
I really disagree here. Ross had a career year last year, the likes of which he will never see again. The other two are simply fodder. Larue wasn't a favorite of mine, but I'd take him today over Ross. As for CF being better, once again defensively, but offensively, no.

LF is the same.
Agreed.

RF is better this year with Griffey than it would be with Kearns, or maybe it's a push.
No. We're better off with Griffey, but the difference is the lack of a right-handed power bat which Kearns was.

The #1 pitcher (Arroyo) is better than it was with Harang as #1
No. no way. Arroyo is either hurt by Narron's mismanagement or he had a career year last year like Ross. Tonight's performance was pitiful.

The #2 pitcher (Harang) is better than it was with Milton as #2
Agree so much.

The #3 pitcher (Lohse) is better than it was with Ortiz as #3
I don't think so. I see little difference except the big salary and the Minnesota ties.

The #4 pitcher (Belisle) is better than it was with Claussen as #4
Agreed.

The choices at #5 are better than what there was to choose from with Hudson or Ramirez or whoever.
Milton is better than the lizard? Never.

The bullpen is as bad as it was then at the moment, but there are better prospects in AAA and AA and at the Major League Level than there was then.
And the signings already mentioned led to that--total lack of judgment on the part of the GM. And the future is great, but it is iffy at best.


The Manager's the same....maybe that needs to change.
Totally agree, but as long as Krivsky's the GM, he will be the manager. They go hand-in-hand.


Some fans impatience remains the same.

After 8 years of mostly losing (if you count 1999) or 17 (if you count 1990), I don't think it's unreasonable to be impatient.

Fact is, with a few tweaks, we have become worse. The pitching staff created by Krivsky is worse because of the bullpen, the offense is worse because of the personnel and trades (I can't imagine ever starting Juan Castro, but since he's there, he plays. A Krivsky decision all the way with an 'amen' from Narron). We have regressed back to 2004-2005 and that is inexcusable.

LINEDRIVER
06-07-2007, 12:01 AM
Sorry, but Cast does run the Reds, he is the one that accepted Krivsky and made him GM. He also can stick his nose in anytime he wants.

He is part of the problem. But he also must be part of the solution.

BigShotBob can stick his nose in, however he's really just a baseball fan and not really a baseball guy. In the perfect world, the best and quickest way to improve this club is to ****can the garbage. However, I don't think BigShot Bob is going to say, "Send Milton home and I'll eat his 9 million. Send Stanton home and I'll eat his 5 million. Send Lohse home and I'll eat his 4 million. Send Ross home and I'll eat his 2 million." There are just so many millions that can be eaten. The Reds pay LaRue about 3 mill this yr to play in KC. The Reds are paying Rheal Cormier 2.5 mill to sit at home. Perhaps BigShotBob can better protect his investment by sending Krivsky home before he makes anymore boneheaded moves that hogtie the Reds 25-man roster.

Eric_Davis
06-07-2007, 12:36 AM
After 8 years of mostly losing (if you count 1999) or 17 (if you count 1990), I don't think it's unreasonable to be impatient.



Obviously, you feel that way, and that's what counts.

I personally really enjoyed 1995. I enjoyed it so much I spent $2500 and flew out to Cincinnati to enjoy my only appearance at a REDS' home game and witnessed the win over the Dodgers in the playoffs. And, great accolades to the people of Cincinnati and the surrounding area as you were all great...each and every one of you.

I also enjoyed the year where we lost the one-game playoff to the Mets.

I sincerely believe that in Castellini and Krivsky, and whoever comes after Krivsky under Castellini, that you will witness this franchise's turnaround into a premier Baseball Club (meaning the whole organization) again.

I know how much time it takes for new ownership to make an effect on an organization with 200-300 employees, when it took over a situation that was as poor as it could be.

It takes years.....many years.

paulrichjr
06-07-2007, 12:44 AM
What you're saying is: it's not really Wayne's fault because he's operating under a win now mandate?

Tell me if I'm with you or not.

So my leap in logic says that if it's not Wayne's fault because he's under a mandate, then who is the mandate coming from? Castellini. Therefore, it is Castellini who is making improvement difficult for the Reds. Does that make any sense? I don't know.

OK I will say that part of the problem is that mentality. I don't think it came just from Cast though. I think Wayne got the job by saying the right things such as "Win now!" This is a strategy that might get you a job from a new owner but not one that is grounded in reality when your team has as many holes as the Reds had. The main point of my post was meant to be that Wayne is getting credit from some for turning around the farm system...that is what really astounds me. He is even getting credit for his third basemen who happened to come to the organization before even DanO was here.

I have been critical of Wayne since his first move (getting rid of Hancock - which I thought was foolish) and I still feel that he wasn't the best man for the job. I am not ready to throw in the towel on the guy yet though because despite his many flaws he has done some things right (just as DanO did and never got credit). Give him through the draft and through the trade deadlines. If he makes trades for next year and the next that are smart then more time is warranted. More stupid trades like the ones in the middle of last year and I am ready to pull the plug.

Eric_Davis
06-07-2007, 01:35 AM
Paul, though I said that Krivsky should get credit for EdE at 3rd Base because he'd get the blame if he wasn't here, I also won't give any G.M. credit for anything organizationally after only 1-1/3 seasons, any more than I would give credit or blame to a G. M. of any organization of 200-300 people after only 1-1/3 seasons.

I'd make my assessment after 3 seasons when evaluations would more of a cause-and-effect analysis. Anything less is not good business, and if you make decisions like this in less time than this you'll have unhappy employees because of the constant change, and you'll go bankrupt.

There are too many dynamics to evaluate correctly cause-and-effect in a 200-300 employee business in 1-1/3 seasons. That's where I was referring to irresponsibility earlier. An owner who would do this would be irresponsible.

Ron Madden
06-07-2007, 03:42 AM
Oh, there'll be doubters. Wayne's the most teflon of Reds' GMs. I've never known a GM to get such a wide berth before. It's absolutely mystifying to me. I simply refuse to believe that it's just me being "impatient"--I know I'm not alone.


Wayne gets a wide birth because "The Voice" and "The Now True Face " of this "Once Proud Franchise" has yet to unleash his wrath.


There is but one opinion that means anything at all anymore in Reds Country. Untill Marty questions WK's tenure as GM very few others in local media will.

None of the beat writers, local tv and radio folks dare to disagree with the "Hall Of Famer".

I've been a Reds Fan all of my life and never seen anything like this.

One word of praise or disdain that Marty happens to utter about a anyone during the game will be repeated time and time again by beat writers, local tv/radio host.

As long as Marty continues to support Kriviski.. rest assured the local media and most of the fanbase will follow his lead.

Ron Madden
06-07-2007, 04:03 AM
Wayne has done some good, some bad. A small market GM needs to have a better ratio and hopefully he will get better. It's the fact that he ever saw anything in the likes of Castro, Comier, Stanton, etc that causes my lack of confidence.

I doubt if there is one member here who has disagreed with each and every move made by Wayne.

What scares hell outta me is just how many members here agree with and will defend every move the man has ever, or never made.

Aronchis
06-07-2007, 04:13 AM
OK I will say that part of the problem is that mentality. I don't think it came just from Cast though. I think Wayne got the job by saying the right things such as "Win now!" This is a strategy that might get you a job from a new owner but not one that is grounded in reality when your team has as many holes as the Reds had. The main point of my post was meant to be that Wayne is getting credit from some for turning around the farm system...that is what really astounds me. He is even getting credit for his third basemen who happened to come to the organization before even DanO was here.

I have been critical of Wayne since his first move (getting rid of Hancock - which I thought was foolish) and I still feel that he wasn't the best man for the job. I am not ready to throw in the towel on the guy yet though because despite his many flaws he has done some things right (just as DanO did and never got credit). Give him through the draft and through the trade deadlines. If he makes trades for next year and the next that are smart then more time is warranted. More stupid trades like the ones in the middle of last year and I am ready to pull the plug.

Yeah, but who hired him and set the vision? Mr. Cast.

Remember, he was turned down twice before he "settled" for Special K. I think he should have dug a little deeper and ignored the advice of the "baseball men" who had been limping down the Reds hall for a decade and Krivsky fired eventually anway.

It is up to Cast to fix the problems whether he helped cause them or Krivsky's sub-parness was the sole reason. My view it is a organizational failure thus it starts with the President making the changes.

My worry is that Cast doesn't know anything is wrong and thinks everything is just 'bad luck'.

GAC
06-07-2007, 08:27 AM
I haven't listened to this interview but I remember Wayne being on TV not too long ago and he really didn't exactly exude warmth that's for sure.

This past winter, at Redsfest, I got to talk to Wayne a couple of times in length. I also stood back and observed as he talked and listened to many fans at the WLW booth. He seemed very personable and was interested in what fans opinions and thoughts were. I personally was impressed. I also let him know what I thought of Milton. ;)

Sea Ray
06-07-2007, 08:30 AM
Since Krivsky took over:

1B is better than it was with Casey.
2B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
SS is better than it was with Lopez.
3B is better than it was with Flavor-of-the-Day.
Catcher is better than it would be if LaRue was behind the plate.
CF is better than it was with Griffey.
LF is the same.
RF is better this year with Griffey than it would be with Kearns, or maybe it's a push.
The #1 pitcher (Arroyo) is better than it was with Harang as #1
The #2 pitcher (Harang) is better than it was with Milton as #2
The #3 pitcher (Lohse) is better than it was with Ortiz as #3
The #4 pitcher (Belisle) is better than it was with Claussen as #4
The choices at #5 are better than what there was to choose from with Hudson or Ramirez or whoever.
The bullpen is as bad as it was then at the moment, but there are better prospects in AAA and AA and at the Major League Level than there was then.

The Manager's the same.



I agree and that's what puzzles me. Why is this team so bad? It seems to me that Kriv has improved a lot of areas of this team. Maybe it's the bullpen but I don't know.

GAC
06-07-2007, 08:39 AM
I agree and that's what puzzles me. Why is this team so bad? It seems to me that Kriv has improved a lot of areas of this team. Maybe it's the bullpen but I don't know.

When one looks at the numbers, the pitching is unchanged, and pretty much on par with last year's (still bad). And our offensive production, while not suffering a huge drop overall, has dipped. It certainly hasn't been imprved on enough to overcome the pitching (Runs Allowed).

The Out Machine thread has some good discussion/insights on it, and I still stand on what I stated over there....


We are 10th in the NL in OB% at .323 (21st overall). Slightly below the league avg (.327). Last year we had an OB% of .336 (7th) in the NL. So in comparison to last year there has been a dip.

But with Runners in Scoring Position, in the NL, we are....

- 16th (.229)
- 16th in Hits (97)
- 15th in XBH (33)
-15th in TBs (161)
-14th in SLG% (.381)


So while we may have somewhat of a problem getting men on - the larger problem looms once we get them on.

But our pitching just isn't where we want it to be.

We are 5th in the NL in Runs (256). But Runs Allowed? 281 (#1 in the NL).

This offense may have it's problems; but it's compounded by the pitching IMHO.

The way this offense is performing you'd need 5 Oswalts in the rotation. ;)

Highlifeman21
06-07-2007, 09:11 AM
I applaud Doc for taking the path of most resistance and chewing Kriv's butt for awhile. I didn't hear the interview but it sounds like Kriv might of been squirming like a nightcrawler on a hot griddle.

Kriv's comment along the lines of 'inside baseball stuff and we wouldnt understand' bugs me a bit considering it came just a couple of days after he admonished the unwashed masses with his 'have a wider lens' comment when the Josh Hamilton not in Colorado situation was brought up.

If you'll remember....

Wayne Krivsky said he didn't think it was best for Hamilton to fly out here (Denver) for one game.

"It didnít seem like the wise and prudent thing to do to go through all that travel for one game. If heíd been eligible for Friday that would be a different," Krivsky said. "Based on everything he went through physically, it didnít make sense to do it for one game. I'm sure I'll get criticized for that, but that goes with the territory -- have a little wider lens than one game, youíve got to put it all together and itís the smart thing to do."

IMO, Kriv is coming off like a jerk. Perhaps its just the reality setting in that he is overwhelmed, inexperienced and unprepared for the task at hand.

Actually, I think Krivsky handled Hamilton returning to the roster well.

He makes a great point about unnecessary travel for 1 game. Why ship Hamilton's butt almost cross-country for 1 game, when he might not be completely 100% and rest is the best thing for Josh to get healthy?

Krivsky is looking at the big picture, whether many of us realize it or not. You can translate that to the Bailey situation as well. Bailey's not 100% ready, but Krivsky's felt some pressure to bring the kid up, so he did. Bailey's put up a nice ERA in AAA, but his K/BB ratio is still alarming, and he doesn't have command of his 2nd and 3rd pitches yet. Essentially, Krivsky's throwing a 1 pitch thrower to the wolves, yet many wanted Bailey to start the year on the Big Club?

We can't judge the Reds for how they look now, but rather how they're going to look for 2009.

paulrichjr
06-07-2007, 09:15 AM
Paul, though I said that Krivsky should get credit for EdE at 3rd Base because he'd get the blame if he wasn't here, I also won't give any G.M. credit for anything organizationally after only 1-1/3 seasons, any more than I would give credit or blame to a G. M. of any organization of 200-300 people after only 1-1/3 seasons.

I'd make my assessment after 3 seasons when evaluations would more of a cause-and-effect analysis. Anything less is not good business, and if you make decisions like this in less time than this you'll have unhappy employees because of the constant change, and you'll go bankrupt.

There are too many dynamics to evaluate correctly cause-and-effect in a 200-300 employee business in 1-1/3 seasons. That's where I was referring to irresponsibility earlier. An owner who would do this would be irresponsible.


I agree with most everything you said here. I have disagreed with the hiring of the man since day 1 mainly due to one reason and that was because I don't trust John Allen's judgement. After day 1, I disagreed with the hiring because I didn't like over 50% of the moves that he made. I have been wrong on the Arroyo trade (so far) only. Even though I don't agree with his hiring I cannot see firing him now. We have to give him a chance longer than a season and a half (again unless he pulls another "The Trade")

Narron, who I like a lot as a person, needs to go. Just watching a game in person and on TV, shows so much more than following along on threads. The man cannot handle a pitching staff and I feel part of the revolving door problem with the bullpen is Narron's "bad luck" and "bad moves".

WVRedsFan
06-07-2007, 10:05 AM
Wayne gets a wide birth because "The Voice" and "The Now True Face " of this "Once Proud Franchise" has yet to unleash his wrath.


There is but one opinion that means anything at all anymore in Reds Country. Untill Marty questions WK's tenure as GM very few others in local media will.

None of the beat writers, local tv and radio folks dare to disagree with the "Hall Of Famer".

I've been a Reds Fan all of my life and never seen anything like this.

One word of praise or disdain that Marty happens to utter about a anyone during the game will be repeated time and time again by beat writers, local tv/radio host.

As long as Marty continues to support Kriviski.. rest assured the local media and most of the fanbase will follow his lead.

If you listened to the post game radio show where Thom and Marty chat about the game, the criticism came out. Both agreed that you can give lip service to "winning now" but there was no proof that it was ever going to happen. They also mentioned Narron, so the tide is turning.

I guess we'll see how "impatient" Castellini is very shortly.

Az Red
06-07-2007, 11:09 AM
I just don't see anyone building a fire under the Reds. Win one game and everyone pats each other on the back and high fives. 'See, we're turning it around'. Then lose four in a row, shrug their shoulders and shift a few chairs. Someone should be squirming in that deck chair as the seat gets hotter and hotter.

If Narron is in that hot seat, maybe the front office is worried about the effect on Hamilton. If Jerry Narron goes, will his brother follow?

Sea Ray
06-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Even though I don't agree with his hiring I cannot see firing him now. We have to give him a chance longer than a season and a half

I agree. If I'm Cast i take WK aside and explain to him that he gets to keep his job for now but "I'm none too pleased and we're going to have some changes in philosophy around here. No more multiyear contracts for aging veterans. We're going with the youth movement ala Florida Marlins. I'm not happy about the money you've blown in Stanton, Castro, Cormier and possibly Arroyo."

M2
06-07-2007, 11:33 AM
Using that logic, though, you can NEVER take a GM or an organization to task. You perpetually extend them credit they've not earned and don't deserve if you keep delaying evaluation of their work, in the draft, minors, or the MLB team. It's a constant deferral of accountability; then it's a bureaucracy.

Exactly.

Wayne Krivsky's coming off a bad year. The team is 62-100 over its last 162 games. Things only seem awful because they ARE awful.

Krivsky inherited a hideous mess. I've got sympathy for that, but he needs to regroup immediately. What he does starting with today's draft and extending through the end of August (a period during which Jerry Narron needs to be canned) will pretty much tell us what we need to know about whether he's going to be able to lead this franchise out of the wasteland. This is a leadership moment, not rising to the moment is just another form of failure.

WVRedsFan
06-07-2007, 11:40 AM
I agree. If I'm Cast i take WK aside and explain to him that he gets to keep his job for now but "I'm none too pleased and we're going to have some changes in philosophy around here. No more multiyear contracts for aging veterans. We're going with the youth movement ala Florida Marlins. I'm not happy about the money you've blown in Stanton, Castro, Cormier and possibly Arroyo."


I'm not sure that hasn't been done already. We'll never know.

We'll see how all this plays out, but if anything is going to be done, it should be soon.

The question is how far do you let him go before you realize that it's just not working? Outside of the moves for Phillips and maybe Arroyo, I see nothing really positive to come out of his tenure. Other moves leave me scratching my head and his unconditional loyalty to Narron (enough to extend his contract even though he seemingly had not proven anything--it wasn't like anyone was going to snatch him from us) may be the straw that breaks the proverbial back with Castellini.

But, like I said, we'll see.

IslandRed
06-07-2007, 11:40 AM
Currently, with the exception of the Drew Stubbs fiasco in last year's draft, I'm rather satisfied with the direction of the Reds' farm system. The system is in better shape now than it has been in years, and the Reds have a nice collection of talent. It's not as much as I'd prefer, but it's moving in the right direction. I have no idea how much credit Krivsky deserves for the surging farm, but he's been at helm during the surge so he deserves at least some credit.

On the flip side, I'm not at all satisfied with the direction of the big league club, especially this season, and this bullpen that Krivsky pieced together is a massive symbol of the immense problems with the current roster construction.

Now ... the next seven to eight weeks are crucial in my evaluations of Krivsky, specifically regarding the draft and the upcoming trading deadline. The type of decisions this organization makes between now and July 31st may go a nice, long way to determining the aptitude and competence of the current regime.

If the Reds are able to turn up some good fortune tomorrow and Friday in the draft, then that'll a major point in Krivsky's favor. Likewise, if the proper veteran players are sent packing prior to the trading deadline for youth and also with the underlying implication that the youth movement and rebuilding period is real and being utilized, then that'll be another major point in Krivsky's favor.

But if Krivsky screws up one or both of those aspects, then my patience for him will effectively be gone and it's quite likely that I'll be a voice in the corner calling for his dismissal.

As is often the case, you've saved me some typing.

Redsland
06-07-2007, 11:43 AM
Doc took one for the team.

He just flushed his access to the GM, but he did it by demonstrating to the GM how keenly interested the fans are in what the heck is going on around here.

I hope Wayne got the message. He certainly seemed to.

Sea Ray
06-07-2007, 11:50 AM
What he does starting with today's draft and extending through the end of August (a period during which Jerry Narron needs to be canned) will pretty much tell us what we need to know about whether he's going to be able to lead this franchise out of the wasteland. This is a leadership moment, not rising to the moment is just another form of failure.


What would be the purpose of firing him in season? I think they'd be much better served to clean up this mess in the off season. Interim managers are an uncomfortable situation and the market will be better in the off season. The only reason to can the manager in season is if you have something to salvage, see Jack McKeon/FL Marlins.

Chip R
06-07-2007, 11:51 AM
What would be the purpose of firing him in season? I think they'd be much better served to clean up this mess in the off season. Interim managers are an uncomfortable situation and the market will be better in the off season. The only reason to can the manager in season is if you have something to salvage, see Jack McKeon/FL Marlins.


Maybe it's to prevent any further damage to the team i.e. Harang's, Arroyo's and Bailey's arms.

IslandRed
06-07-2007, 11:55 AM
I agree. If I'm Cast i take WK aside and explain to him that he gets to keep his job for now but "I'm none too pleased and we're going to have some changes in philosophy around here. No more multiyear contracts for aging veterans. We're going with the youth movement ala Florida Marlins. I'm not happy about the money you've blown in Stanton, Castro, Cormier and possibly Arroyo."

That's cool. I'd be curious to know if Castellini himself is the source of the failed philosophy -- not the tactical decision of signing aging veterans, but in the strategic, "let's try to win now even though we have a bunch of holes and not much coming from the farm system yet" sense that led to the failed tactical decisions. In the end it doesn't much matter, though. What matters is that they agree on the right path to follow now.

BRM
06-07-2007, 11:59 AM
From Daugherty's blog this morning.



Calling Bob Castellini

A very good move for the Reds owner today would be to go public with any plan and/or vision he has for his ballclub. The initial idea -- no 5-year plans, doing whatever it takes to bring championship baseball back to Cincinnati etc. -- is, um, untenable, at least for now. Castellini doesnt like being front and center, cameras rolling, but someone needs to be the face of the organization, and quickly. Fans will suffer through just about anything, if they see any hint of a better future. Right now, what they see is incompetence and a lack of accountability.

Today's the 1st day of the amateur draft, a perfect time for the owner to say the commitment hasnt wavered, but the course has changed, be patient, here's what we need to do etc. I'll be calling him today.

Live big, Bob Howsam.

RFS62
06-07-2007, 11:59 AM
That's cool. I'd be curious to know if Castellini himself is the source of the failed philosophy -- not the tactical decision of signing aging veterans, but in the strategic, "let's try to win now even though we have a bunch of holes and not much coming from the farm system yet" sense that led to the failed tactical decisions. In the end it doesn't much matter, though. What matters is that they agree on the right path to follow now.



This is EXACTLY what I think has happened. The "serve two masters" issue we talked about last week.

It all adds up..... the lip service to "winning now" and the promise to "build for the future". Even the Yankees don't have the money to pull that off, as we have seen, if every single decision isn't spot on.

It's a system doomed by design, regardless of the execution, for a team with our limited resources. And it's not crying "poor mouth" when you state the facts of the economic realities of mlb... in fact it's reality distortion if you chose to ignore it.

pedro
06-07-2007, 12:08 PM
Exactly.

Wayne Krivsky's coming off a bad year. The team is 62-100 over its last 162 games. Things only seem awful because they ARE awful.

Krivsky inherited a hideous mess. I've got sympathy for that, but he needs to regroup immediately. What he does starting with today's draft and extending through the end of August (a period during which Jerry Narron needs to be canned) will pretty much tell us what we need to know about whether he's going to be able to lead this franchise out of the wasteland. This is a leadership moment, not rising to the moment is just another form of failure.

I agree with that whole heartedly.

M2
06-07-2007, 12:13 PM
What would be the purpose of firing him in season? I think they'd be much better served to clean up this mess in the off season. Interim managers are an uncomfortable situation and the market will be better in the off season. The only reason to can the manager in season is if you have something to salvage, see Jack McKeon/FL Marlins.

The purpose of canning Narron would be multifold.

1) It sends the message that 62-100 baseball is intolerable. Right now the franchise is coming across as oblivious to how bad the major league product has been.

2) Narron's supposedly there to win now and his pitcher handling is a major cause for concern. An interim manager, someone to whom it's made clear that his job is to be a caretaker for the rest of the season, won't feel the pressure to burn out the franchise's precious assets.

3) What about the current situation isn't already uncomfortable?

4) You've always got something to salvage. In this case, the Reds need to figure who's essential and who's expendable heading into a major rebuild.

M2
06-07-2007, 12:17 PM
This is EXACTLY what I think has happened. The "serve two masters" issue we talked about last week.

It all adds up..... the lip service to "winning now" and the promise to "build for the future". Even the Yankees don't have the money to pull that off, as we have seen, if every single decision isn't spot on.

It's a system doomed by design, regardless of the execution, for a team with our limited resources. And it's not crying "poor mouth" when you state the facts of the economic realities of mlb... in fact it's reality distortion if you chose to ignore it.

Yep, half in one spot and half in another won't get it done. Seemingly this is something fans understand better than the franchise.

Krivsky really needs to present Castellini with two all-in options and make it clear that there is no viable middle road. That gets back to this being a leadership moment.

RichRed
06-07-2007, 12:52 PM
2) Narron's supposedly there to win now and his pitcher handling is a major cause for concern. An interim manager, someone to whom it's made clear that his job is to be a caretaker for the rest of the season, won't feel the pressure to burn out the franchise's precious assets.


I agree with this. I think Narron's a horrible manager but a few weeks ago, I was of the opinion that they should just wait until the season is over to make a change.

I have since changed my mind because the Reds simply can not afford to let Jerry be the one calling the shots on how many pitches Arroyo and Harang are allowed to pitch for even one more trip through the rotation, nor can he be allowed to continue his criminal mismanagement of the bullpen.

Jerry is taking a team already on life support and reaching for the plug with every boneheaded move he makes.

Please get rid of Narron. Now.

Roy Tucker
06-07-2007, 01:16 PM
I agree with this. I think Narron's a horrible manager but a few weeks ago, I was of the opinion that they should just wait until the season is over to make a change.

I have since changed my mind because the Reds simply can not afford to let Jerry be the one calling the shots on how many pitches Arroyo and Harang are allowed to pitch for even one more trip through the rotation, nor can he be allowed to continue his criminal mismanagement of the bullpen.

Jerry is taking a team already on life support and reaching for the plug with every boneheaded move he makes.

Please get rid of Narron. Now.

I hate to be a bandwagon jumper, but I'm starting to feel the same way.

Narrron's increasingly panicky mishandling of the starters and bullpen is starting to become very noticeable even a rose-colored glasses guy like myself.

Watching LaRussa smoothly shift through his bullpen like a Turboglide transmission on a '58 Buick while watching Narron blow up his tranny by ramming gears without a clutch has made it all the more obvious.

Marc D
06-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Yep, half in one spot and half in another won't get it done. Seemingly this is something fans understand better than the franchise.

Krivsky really needs to present Castellini with two all-in options and make it clear that there is no viable middle road. That gets back to this being a leadership moment.


As you alluded to, the scary part is how many casual fans were saying this when WK and company came on board yet the braintrust seemingly can't see it.

This is the basis of my disdain for current management. Everything else is a symptom of this disease.

Sea Ray
06-07-2007, 02:44 PM
Yep, half in one spot and half in another won't get it done. Seemingly this is something fans understand better than the franchise.

Krivsky really needs to present Castellini with two all-in options and make it clear that there is no viable middle road. That gets back to this being a leadership moment.

Who ever thought signing Castro, Stanton and Co was a win now move? I don't think WK is that stupid. I honestly think he figured guys like those could mentor the youngsters. I'm not so sure that's what's happening but I think that was the idea.

As for Narron, if they're concerned about his burning up pitchers then they need to have a meeting about pitch counts. Set one for each starter.

M2
06-07-2007, 02:58 PM
Who ever thought signing Castro, Stanton and Co was a win now move? I don't think WK is that stupid. I honestly think he figured guys like those could mentor the youngsters. I'm not so sure that's what's happening but I think that was the idea.

As for Narron, if they're concerned about his burning up pitchers then they need to have a meeting about pitch counts. Set one for each starter.

Mentor the youngsters?

They've got coaches, right? There's plenty of other veterans on the roster. You pay players to play. You only get 25 roster slots, burning them up on "mentors" is nothing short of insane. Mike Stanton was brought in to be a primary setup man. Castro was signed to be a reserve IF. They were tweaks on a team that the front office mistakenly thought only needed tweaking.

Eric_Davis
06-07-2007, 03:28 PM
From Daugherty's blog this morning.

The Blazers had to do this, and the first several efforts by management appeared as lip service to the fans, and was continually called out until they got it straight. But, because of the decade-long abuse of the fans...notice I say the fans and not the team, it's taking 3, 4, 5 years to swing the momentum the other direction. Many will never be fans again who were fans for decades.

I continued to keep my season tickets through the bad times, but I was among a group of 10% who felt that way. On the flip side, it was good. It got rid of the old stale fans who would sit on their butts and never clap...literally...and expected every game to be perfection. The fans that replaced them were much poorer and cared more about enjoying themselves that night, then where the Blazers were in the standings. It doesn't mean they were apathetic towards winning, but they simply were better people who cared more about enjoying the moment than about moaning and complaining if they didn't win every game by 20 points.

In the last couple of years, the reporters were out of touch with the fans who attended the games. The fans over the last three years were seeing the changes and understood the patience it takes to turn around a franchise that's fallen as far as they fell. The reporters (except for two, Dwight Jaynes and Brian Meehan) continued to abuse the team because they thought it made for better headlines. They always looked for the bad and never the good, and when they couldn't find it, they made it up.

The REDS aren't there, but be cautious of reporters who would rather write negative things because it sells more papers than to look at the overall picture of things.

Case in point:

Your 2008 Cincinnati REDS:

1B Joey Votto, who will improve each and every year for the next 7 years and will be cheap as dirt for most of them.

2B Brandon Phillips, who will improve each and every year for the next 3 years and produce at a level equal to those 3 years for 3 more after that. He's very affordable for the next 3 years, and who know what Single-A player will replace him after that in order to afford to keep some pitching, such as Bailey 3 or 4 years from now.

3B Edwin Encarnacion, who will continue to improve each and every year for the next 4 years and will maintain the level of the last 3 years of performance for 3 years after that. Like Phillips, he'll be very affordable for the next years, and the same applies to him after that where he can be replaced, kept, or traded in order to afford some pitching 4 years from now.

SS Alex Gonzalez, who will cement the defense as Phillips, Ed E, Hamilton, and Bruce attempt to improve their defensive positions over the next couple of years. He won't be resigned after his contract is up, and he might be moved before that if a younger player forces him out. This position three years from now will be manned by a league-minimum player as 3rd Base, 1B, 2B, and CF head into the meat of their arbitration years.

LF Adam Dunn or Jay Bruce. If Dunn, the REDS should only keep him if they can work out a deal in his contract where they have flexibility to move him next year if they want to. They have to make sure that he doesn't walk away after an expiring contract and they get nothing for him. That would be a total loss. Either trade him now, or sign him to a 2-3 year deal even if it means over-paying him for 3 years with the ability to trade him to any club when they want to do it. If it's Bruce, whom I see as a mid-season call-up next year, Bruce will continue to improve for the next 8 years....the stud of the franchise. He'll also be cheap for the next five years, relative to his production. He'll get a good contract five years from now, and they may have to trade EdE and/or Phillips by then to be able to afford him.

CF Josh Hamilton, who may move to LF when Bruce comes up, will be a question mark, as we won't know what might happen based upon his most recent past (the last 4 years with the last year not-withstanding). But, if Hamilton continues his recent trend, then, he'll be affordable for the next 3 years and will continue to improve over the next 3 years and maintain the same level of play as the next 3 years for 3 years after that. They might move him when he becomes too costly with one of the Rookie or A-Ball players or a draftee from today to replace him. He'd bring a nice pitcher to this team in a trade 3 years from now. They need to be able to afford quality (not quantity) pitching.

RF Junior, who should hit his 600th Homerun as a RED and retire as a RED after 2009 where he goes into the Hall-of-Fame in a REDS' ballcap. A Free-Agent could fill the spot in 2010 if a younger player doesn't step up.

I'm tired of typing and pitching is much harder to do anyway, so I'll let someone else do the 2008 Pitching for the REDS. Besides, it should be much different, we hope, right?