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flyer85
06-11-2007, 04:08 PM
... no Norris Hopper, can't beleive it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playerrating



1 Magglio Ordonez DET RF 87.3
2 Alex Rodriguez NYY 3B 78.2
3 Vladimir Guerre LAA RF 76.3
4 Miguel Cabrera FLA 3B 73.7
5 Jake Peavy SD SP 71.4
6 David Ortiz BOS DH 70.9
7 Dan Haren OAK SP 68.8
8 Gary Sheffield DET DH 65.4
9 Chase Utley PHI 2B 63.3
10 Grady Sizemore CLE CF 63.3
11 Matt Holliday COL LF 62.2
12 Kevin Youkilis BOS 1B 61.2
13 Prince Fielder MIL 1B 60.6
14 Ichiro Suzuki SEA CF 60.2
15 Jose Reyes NYM SS 60.0
16 Derek Jeter NYY SS 58.9
17 James Shields TB SP 58.2
18 Hanley Ramirez FLA SS 56.5
19 C.C. Sabathia CLE SP 56.3
20 Brad Penny LAD SP 55.7
21 Mark Teixeira TEX 1B 54.6
22 Victor Martinez CLE C 54.2
23 Orlando Cabrera LAA SS 53.7
24 Jorge Posada NYY C 53.7
25 Placido Polanco DET 2B 53.4
26 Jimmy Rollins PHI SS 53.4
27 Dan Uggla FLA 2B 53.0
28 J.J. Putz SEA RP 52.5
29 Travis Hafner CLE DH 51.8
30 Edgar Renteria ATL SS 51.7
31 John Lackey LAA SP 51.1
32 Josh Beckett BOS SP 49.4
33 Chris Young SD SP 48.6
34 J.J. Hardy MIL SS 47.3
35 Justin Morneau MIN 1B 46.8
36 Brian Roberts BAL 2B 46.6
37 Eric Byrnes ARI LF 46.3
38 Kelly Johnson ATL 2B 46.0
39 Todd Helton COL 1B 45.6
40 Torii Hunter MIN CF 45.5
41 Aaron Rowand PHI CF 44.9
42 Kelvim Escobar LAA SP 44.3
43 Mike Lowell BOS 3B 43.3
44 F Cordero MIL RP 43.2
45 Al Reyes TB RP 42.9
46 Albert Pujols STL 1B 42.8
47 Carlos Lee HOU LF 42.7
48 Alex Rios TOR RF 42.2
49 David Wright NYM 3B 42.1
50 Chad Gaudin OAK SP 41.6
51 Tom Gorzelanny PIT SP 41.4
52 Derrek Lee CHC 1B 41.3
53 John Smoltz ATL SP 40.0
54 Adrian Gonzalez SD 1B 39.6
55 Barry Bonds SF LF 38.8
56 Jason Bay PIT LF 38.7
57 Brandon Webb ARI SP 38.4
58 Matt Morris SF SP 38.0
59 Rich Hill CHC SP 36.4
60 C Granderson DET CF 36.1
61 Adam Dunn CIN LF 35.5
62 Carl Crawford TB LF 35.4
63 Sergio Mitre FLA SP 34.6
64 Takashi Saito LAD RP 34.5
65 Cole Hamels PHI SP 34.4
66 Russell Martin LAD C 34.3
67 Ian Snell PIT SP 33.7
68 B.J. Upton TB 2B 33.7
69 Carlos Guillen DET SS 33.7
70 Johan Santana MIN SP 33.4
71 Alfonso Soriano CHC LF 33.1
72 Ken Griffey Jr. CIN RF 33.0
73 Josh Willingham FLA LF 32.6
74 Nick Swisher OAK 1B 32.3
75 B Phillips CIN 2B 32.1
76 Jhonny Peralta CLE SS 31.7
77 Jeremy Guthrie BAL SP 31.7
78 Fausto Carmona CLE SP 31.7
79 Casey Kotchman LAA 1B 31.5
80 G Matthews Jr. LAA CF 31.5
81 O Hernandez NYM SP 31.4
82 Michael Cuddyer MIN RF 31.1
83 John Maine NYM SP 30.6
84 Billy Wagner NYM RP 30.3
85 Brian Fuentes COL RP 30.3
86 Derek Lowe LAD SP 29.4
87 Carlos Beltran NYM CF 29.4
88 Gil Meche KC SP 29.1
89 Bobby Abreu NYY RF 29.0
90 Chipper Jones ATL 3B 28.4
91 J Isringhausen STL RP 28.2
92 J Verlander DET SP 28.2
93 Jorge Sosa NYM SP 28.0
94 Orlando Hudson ARI 2B 27.8
95 Manny Ramirez BOS LF 27.7
96 Reggie Willits LAA LF 26.9
97 Tim Hudson ATL SP 26.9
98 Curt Schilling BOS SP 26.8
99 Jeff Francoeur ATL RF 26.6
100 F Rodriguez LAA RP 26.4

NJReds
06-11-2007, 04:11 PM
Why take a shot at Hopper? He's been a decent guy off the bench for the Reds. He is what he is...a good 4th OF. Would you rather have DeWayne Wise?

flyer85
06-11-2007, 04:14 PM
He's been a decent guy off the bench... bench player? He started all three games in the just completed series. It's a shot at Narron, not Hopper. Hopper is what he is, Narron just thinks he's something else.

Joseph
06-11-2007, 04:15 PM
Why take a shot at Hopper? He's been a decent guy off the bench for the Reds. He is what he is...a good 4th OF. Would you rather have DeWayne Wise?

I don't think it was a shot at Hopper, it was just a reflection on the inordinate 'dap' he gets from broadcasters and fans.

TOBTTReds
06-11-2007, 04:25 PM
I don't think it was a shot at Hopper, it was just a reflection on the inordinate 'dap' he gets from broadcasters and fans.

Which I am sort of surprised about. I don't mean to start something here, but I thought the obsession with the scrappiness of Freel by fans and coaches had a lot to do with something that Hopper will never be...figure it out.

smith288
06-11-2007, 04:30 PM
Can we trade for Johan Santana while his ESPN rating is low?

Sea Ray
06-11-2007, 04:38 PM
I think it's interesting that there are so few Reds on this list. Goes to show that we have a talent issue here, not a managerial one.

Also interesting where Adam Dunn falls and why Reds fans are so torn over how good he is. It shows that Adam Dunn is the best player on this team but it also shows that isn't saying much. Other teams evaluating players for trades don't care how he compares to other Reds players. They compare him to other major leaguers. They'll say he's not Babe Ruth. He's Carl Crawford or Curtis Granderson with a $13mill pricetag.

Joseph
06-11-2007, 04:43 PM
I think it's interesting that there are so few Reds on this list. Goes to show that we have a talent issue here, not a managerial one.

Also interesting where Adam Dunn falls and why Reds fans are so torn over how good he is. It shows that Adam Dunn is the best player on this team but it also shows that isn't saying much. Other teams evaluating players for trades don't care how he compares to other Reds players. They compare him to other major leaguers. They'll say he's not Babe Ruth. He's Carl Crawford or Curtis Granderson with a $13mill pricetag.

30 goes in to 100 how many times?

3.33.

We have right about the 'average' number we should honestly. Now granted the good teams have more than three probably, but it's not like we're truly under represented. This is an ESPN list, based on recognition more than ability.

Always Red
06-11-2007, 04:45 PM
Still no love for Aaron Harang.

NJReds
06-11-2007, 04:47 PM
I don't think it was a shot at Hopper, it was just a reflection on the inordinate 'dap' he gets from broadcasters and fans.

Ah. My mistake. I don't get to listen to Reds broadcasters all that much. And most of my fan interaction is with RZ.

smith288
06-11-2007, 04:51 PM
Still no love for Aaron Harang.
Its based on a nerd formula centered on performance not personal opinion.

Apparently Aaron isnt Ian Snell good yet. :lol:

RichRed
06-11-2007, 04:53 PM
Here is how they arrive at the ratings:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2897967


Players receive points for their major league rankings in the following disciplines:

Batters: Batting bases accumulated, runs produced, OBP, BA, HRs, hits, runs, RBIs, net steals, difficulty of defensive position, and team win percentage.

Starting pitchers: ERA compared to league average weighted by IP, wins weighted by win percentage, defensive independent bases allowed per IP (limiting HR, BB and HBP), strikeouts, opponents' BA, and innings pitched.

Relievers: Wins and saves with a stiff penalty for blown saves, ERA compared to league average weighted by IP, K-BB ratio, opponents' BA, and preventing inherited runners from scoring.


Weights

Batters MLB ranks in:
Batting bases accumulated 20%
Runs produced 15%
OBP 15%
BA 10%
HRs 10%
RBIs 5%
Runs 5%
Hits 5%
Net steals 5%
Team win percentage, defensive position 5% each

The offensive player ratings seem to me to rely too heavily on counting stats but what do you guys think?

Sea Ray
06-11-2007, 04:53 PM
30 goes in to 100 how many times?

3.33.

We have right about the 'average' number we should honestly. Now granted the good teams have more than three probably, but it's not like we're truly under represented. This is an ESPN list, based on recognition more than ability.


It's not just the number out of 100. It's where the players are listed. Having no one higher than 60 is part of the problem.

Obviously it's one list which is certainly open to debate and change.

Patrick Bateman
06-11-2007, 04:59 PM
This list has Polanco rated #25. There are way too many holes in this formula to consider this list valid. Not to metnion Reggie Willits as a top 100 player.

Redsland
06-11-2007, 05:02 PM
Team winning percentage gets the same weight as runs scored, for whatever reason.

RedsManRick
06-11-2007, 05:16 PM
Nate Silver pretty much tore it apart via a BP Unfiltered Blog post today.

His basic point is spot on. What exactly is it measuring? It looks like a really good formula for MVP voting. I'm not sure what usefulness it has beyond that that isn't already accomplished by something like VORP, WARP, or Win Shares, all 3 of which are actually measuring something that can be described apart from the formula itself.

MartyFan
06-11-2007, 05:34 PM
The dumbest list I've seen...pretty much ever.

pedro
06-11-2007, 05:36 PM
The dumbest list I've seen...pretty much ever.

why? it's just a list of the guys have the top 100 statistical seasons this year. I think it's pretty interesting.

edit: I see you mean in execution, not concept.

M2
06-11-2007, 05:41 PM
Horrible system, could have been devised by a second grader, but I like that Brandon Phillips ranks #6 among 2Bs. He's definitely in the top 10 in terms of overall play and it's nice to see him get recognition even if it's by a catastrophically stupid system.

Johnny Footstool
06-11-2007, 05:44 PM
Any system that rates Placido Polanco sixty places ahead of Carlos Beltran is fundamentally flawed, unless it's measuring illiterative names.

pedro
06-11-2007, 05:59 PM
Any system that rates Placido Polanco sixty places ahead of Carlos Beltran is fundamentally flawed, unless it's measuring illiterative names.

That is pretty egregious.

KoryMac5
06-11-2007, 09:38 PM
Juan Castro must be 101st on that list.

KronoRed
06-11-2007, 09:39 PM
Juan Castro must be 1001st on that list.

You forgot a 0 there

coachw513
06-11-2007, 11:10 PM
I think it's interesting that there are so few Reds on this list. Goes to show that we have a talent issue here, not a managerial one.

Also interesting where Adam Dunn falls and why Reds fans are so torn over how good he is. It shows that Adam Dunn is the best player on this team but it also shows that isn't saying much. Other teams evaluating players for trades don't care how he compares to other Reds players. They compare him to other major leaguers. They'll say he's not Babe Ruth. He's Carl Crawford or Curtis Granderson with a $13mill pricetag.

His contract is and of itself why his greatest asset to the Reds is as a trading chip...I do agree his value to us exceeds the value as compared to others, but his ability to hit 40+ HR for a power deficient club (re: Padres/Dodgers/Angels) potentially sets his value higher...for this franchise at that cost, Dunn (and I've said this specifically before) must be Ramirez, Rodriguez, Guerrero or Pujols...that is, he must be able to carry us, make others around us better and be a guy that changes the game when he's AB or nearing AB...he's a very good player and probably is our best statistical player but he hasn't been nor will he be that type of guy...he's a supporting actor getting lead actor money...FWIW, I wish we were a better team, and able to justify the contract and keep him here...it will be a sad day if it happens, a lousy day if it doesn't return value in turn...

IMHO, this is also why Griffey should not be traded...he still has some of "it"...still impacts the game with his presence, still brings the "uh-oh" to the opposing dugout...that combined with the chase to 600 (and the corresponding purchase of tix by fans) should keep Griffey in RF for the Reds through the end of next season...

blumj
06-11-2007, 11:10 PM
Well, if these rankings are what they used to pick their projected All Star team rosters, I think their system's done at least as good a job as the real system usually does. Probably better.

OldXOhio
06-12-2007, 10:46 AM
I'd be more interested in a list of the actual top 100 in the game, not just those that are hot in 2007. Polanco at 25 and Meche even being on the list make this article something not worth spending more than about 30 seconds glancing at.

edabbs44
06-12-2007, 10:57 AM
I'd be more interested in a list of the actual top 100 in the game, not just those that are hot in 2007. Polanco at 25 and Meche even being on the list make this article something not worth spending more than about 30 seconds glancing at.

Why? The list changes daily. It's a representation as to how a player has performed to this date for 2007 only. Pretty cool. If those guys don't deserve to be there, then they'll be moving down as the season goes on.

OldXOhio
06-12-2007, 01:50 PM
Why? The list changes daily. It's a representation as to how a player has performed to this date for 2007 only. Pretty cool. If those guys don't deserve to be there, then they'll be moving down as the season goes on.


I did not realize it is an ongoing thing, but nonetheless, I guess I'm in the camp that pays closer attention to career norms than outliers.

TeamBoone
06-12-2007, 05:18 PM
I think it's interesting that there are so few Reds on this list. Goes to show that we have a talent issue here, not a managerial one.



Personally, Edwin and Josh, maybe even Freel and/or Gonzalez, could easily be on that list... depends on the criteria used when compiling it.