Bowden, The Draft, and Why the Reds Stink Now

[JLB5]

I was reading through one of Lonnie Wheeler (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/lonniewheeler/)'s blog posts and ran across this little gem:


It actually gets worse. Jim Bowden’s last five drafts (1999-2003) were almost total washouts, producing zero Reds for the current roster. Chris Denorfia, taken in ’02, was traded for Marcus McBeth, who still hasn’t thrown a pitch for Cincinnati; and that’s it. Ryan Wagner was in the big Washington swap, but only as the third-ranked commodity that the Reds dealt away. Austin Kearns was drafted in 1998, the same year as Dunn and Coffey.

I knew it was bad, but I didn't realize it was this bad. Right now the Reds are in the window where players from those draft years should be making a major contribution to this team. To come up with a great big donut hole for that whole period is beyond pitiful. Joey Votto and maybe Richie Gardner and Carlos Guevara are about the only prospects remaining who project to possibly take the field for the Reds. Bowden's best pick during that whole time frame was Rich Hill who didn't sign. He also drafted Sowers with a first round pick who did not sign either. Ryan Wagner was the only player drafted during that entire period that has made a substantial contribution to a MLB club.

From this I draw 2 conclusions. 1. I give Krivsky a bit more rope because he had almost zero major league prospects when he took over to use as bargaining chips or roster completion. 2. A fire sale is in prime need to help replinish this deficiency. (I thought that already, but this solidifies it even more).

Reds Draft History (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/draft/Cin.shtml)

[klw]

On the flip side that 1998 draft was extremely productive.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/draft/cincinnati-reds-1998.shtml

[NorrisHopper30]

we drafted BJ Ryan?

...

[JLB5]

we drafted BJ Ryan?

...

Traded in 1999 for Juan Guzman who went 6-3 with a 3.03 ERA for the Reds. He signed with TB as a free agent and pitched 1 game for the D-Rays the next year for which he earned 12 million dollars and was never heard from again.

[bigredbunter]

On the flip side that 1998 draft was extremely productive.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/draft/cincinnati-reds-1998.shtml

Check out the pick from the 21st round in '98---One Alex Kellner. Apparently died two years before the draft. Played MLB in the 1940s---Why would we draft a deceased ballplayer? Anyone know the story here?

[klw]

Its a flaw on the site. I'm guessing that there was another player with that name was the draftee. The one who is referenced seemed to play in the 40's

[JLB5]

Its a flaw on the site. I'm guessing that there was another player with that name was the draftee. The one who is referenced seemed to play in the 40's

That's correct. The actual player drafted was a different Alex Kellner who was a catcher from North Carolina.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/1998/draft/news/1998/06/03/21st_round_02/

[bigredbunter]

Its a flaw on the site. I'm guessing that there was another player with that name was the draftee. The one who is referenced seemed to play in the 40's

OK Thanks---Wonder who was taken in the 21st round...

[hebroncougar]

I'm not sure it's all Bowden's fault. I think the Reds are absolutely abysmal at developing talent as well. Face it, their farm system stinks, and has since they had a flurry of prospects come up in the mid 80's.

[JLB5]

I'm not sure it's all Bowden's fault. I think the Reds are absolutely abysmal at developing talent as well. Face it, their farm system stinks, and has since they had a flurry of prospects come up in the mid 80's.

Marge didn't do any favors with her "All scouts do is watch games" approach and the Linder regime didn't do much at first to improve the situation. Bowden gets some but not all of the blame.

I also think promoting Gullet to MLB pitching coach was a mistake. He seemed to be doing a great job with pitcher development at the minor league level. The one guy I'd like to see them get involved is Ron Oester. I believe he is coaching with the Florence Freedom now. Heard him on the radio before the season and he seemed open to coming back if the Reds made an offer. He said he really enjoys teaching and thinks he's a better coach than player.

[dougflynn23]

Marge didn't do any favors with her "All scouts do is watch games" approach and the Linder regime didn't do much at first to improve the situation. Bowden gets some but not all of the blame.

I also think promoting Gullet to MLB pitching coach was a mistake. He seemed to be doing a great job with pitcher development at the minor league level. The one guy I'd like to see them get involved is Ron Oester. I believe he is coaching with the Florence Freedom now. Heard him on the radio before the season and he seemed open to coming back if the Reds made an offer. He said he really enjoys teaching and thinks he's a better coach than player.
:confused:Ronny O was an absolute disaster as the Rds minor league coordinator a couple of years back. He fought with his superiors, was a loose cannon in meetings, and the straw that broke the camel's back was when he went AWOL from the Reds developmental facility in Latin America because the hotel he was staying at didn't launder his towels. He was fired soon after. Oester has proven he does not play well with others.

[JLB5]

:confused:Ronny O was an absolute disaster as the Rds minor league coordinator a couple of years back. He fought with his superiors, was a loose cannon in meetings, and the straw that broke the camel's back was when he went AWOL from the Reds developmental facility in Latin America because the hotel he was staying at didn't launder his towels. He was fired soon after. Oester has proven he does not play well with others.

I didn't know Dan O brought him back, I was living in Texas then and missed that. I just remember him quitting in '01 when he had the misunderstanding with Bowden over the manager job. Thanks for the info.

[big boy]

It has to be pretty hard to swing and miss at that many picks. Seems like you could pull out a guide and do better.

[dougflynn23]

:eek: That's what happens when you get infatuated with "toolsy" guys and HS pitchers. Bowden's legacy will always be Chris Gruler, Josh Hall, and Ty Howington.

[hebroncougar]

:eek: That's what happens when you get infatuated with "toolsy" guys and HS pitchers. Bowden's legacy will always be Chris Gruler, Josh Hall, and Ty Howington.

To be fair.........Chris Gruler and Ty Howington were extremely high on most, if not all draft ratings. Both had lots of injuries, unfortunately.

[redsfanmia]

The fact that the Reds management didnt allow Bowden to draft and then sign the best avaliable talent because they were cheap didnt help.

[Chi-Town Red]

yea Ownership has to take some of the blame for the o-fer

[redsfanmia]

The Reds drafted Jermey Sowers knowing that he was going to Vanderbilt so essentially they wasted a first round pick because Uncle Carl didnt want to spend the cash and a first rounder. This is one example that we know about how many others are there that we dont?

[harangatang]

we drafted BJ Ryan?

...Yep, the Reds sure did. Not to mention they didn't protect Trevor Hoffman from the 1993 expansion draft (happened in 1992) with the recommendation from Jim Tracy (at the time he was the manager at AA for the Reds). Florida took Hoffman in the draft and then traded him to San Diego in the Gary Sheffield deal in 1993. I doubt the Reds would still have both pitchers at this point, but an 8th inning with Ryan and a 9th inning with Hoffman sure sounds better than what the Reds currently have at the present time.

[ChatterRed]

I agree with the original post. People don't realize how bad the Reds minors were when Krivsky took over. Small market organizations CANNOT FAIL IN DRAFTING OR PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. It is essential to their chances at success. The richer organizations can buy a player here or there, but we cannot afford to.

Jim Bowden and Dan OBrien set this organization way back. Give Krivsky some rope.

[JLB5]

I agree with the original post. People don't realize how bad the Reds minors were when Krivsky took over. Small market organizations CANNOT FAIL IN DRAFTING OR PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. It is essential to their chances at success. The richer organizations can buy a player here or there, but we cannot afford to.

Jim Bowden and Dan OBrien set this organization way back. Give Krivsky some rope.

The last 5 years of Bowden/Linder left the cupboard bear. Dan O started to right the ship at the minor league level, but the Milton contract hamstrung the team at the major league level. Krivsky has been tasked with turning over the ML roster and restocking the minors, all while "being competetive" and being stuck with Milton. I don't think he's St. Krivsky or that he walks on water, but it's difficult to fathom how bad the situation was he walked into.

The other issue I don't see mentioned much is that players (and more importantly their agents) know the situation here and that makes inking free agents all the more difficult. You don't think Krivs wouldn't have liked to have retained Schoenweiss rather than sign Stanton? Or kept Aurillia rather than Conine? (Although I think Conine has been better and cheaper). I don't want to get into "The Trade" here because this is more about the situation the new owner/GM walked into. The moves that take place over the next month are what will make or break this regime IMO. They have the opportunity to start restocking the system to allow this team to be competitve over the next several years or they can try to cobble together another collection of misfits, hasbeens, and neverwillbes that hope to be the blind squirrel finding the nut. I, for one, hope its the former and not the latter.

[redsfanmia]

Jim Bowden and Dan OBrien set this organization way back. Give Krivsky some rope.

Bowden set the the ogranization back but DanO did a great job in the short time he was here. I think that the minor league system would be better off if DanO was still here.