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flyer85
06-12-2007, 11:51 PM
BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | PDAUGHERTY@ENQUIRER.COM

No love for Adam Dunn. No affection for the Big Donkey. Man averages 42 homers, 95 RBI and 104 runs scored the last three years. He’s only 27 years old. People think you can find those numbers on Aisle 13 at Wal-Mart.

No love for 334 walks between 2004 and 2006. No time for 179 homers in the previous five seasons. Only seven current players have hit more long balls during that time. It’s practically a Hall of Fame lineup: Rodriguez, Pujols, Ortiz, Ramirez, Jones, Thome, Soriano ... Dunn.

No love for our town’s Dave Kingman, Greg Luzinski and Rob Deer. Chicks dig the long ball? Evidently not. Chicks dig line drives with runners in scoring position and Web Gems on the Worldwide Leader.

No room in Cincinnati for Adam Dunn. Wayne Krivsky’s Reds are going to pitch and play defense. Dunner’s gonna hit big flies and go fishing. Jerry Narron’s Reds will do the “little things.” The Big Donkey is better at the big things that travel 400 feet.

The Reds are looking to trade him. This is the notion. It’s a good one, even if it has been out there since last offseason. Or, according to Dunn, since 2002.

“Oh-two, oh-three, oh-four,” he said. Oh-eight, I’ll hear it. Oh-nine. I’ll believe it when I see it.”

Dunn handles this the way he handles all things: Easily. A little self deprecation, a big shrug. Adam Dunn is a big ol’ boy whose demeanor is as placid as 6 a.m. on a farm pond. He’ll never be the player people want him to be, probably. He’ll never go ulcerous worrying about it.

“We’ll go shopping, me and you,” Ken Griffey Jr. interjected, a reference to Dunn being shopped to other clubs. “Where’d you like to go? Nordstrom?”

“Bass Pro (Shops)," Dunn said.

He could be gone in a month or six weeks. He could be a Red all year. Wishing to trade a player doesn’t make it so. Dunn makes $10 million this year; he’s scheduled to make $13 million next year, if the Reds exercise their option, which they almost certainly won’t.

Any team wanting Dunn would have to pick up what’s left of this year’s deal (likely $4 million-plus) and negotiate a new one. Without a contract, Dunn becomes a rent-a-player, never a good idea.

So there’s that. And this:

It will be hard to trade him. Teams serious about winning don’t often target home run hitters at the trade deadline. Especially home run hitters who play defense, um, casually, and strike out close to 200 times a year. Dunn’s skills limit his trade factor. He’s a natural-born designated hitter, which might cut a whole league out of the equation.

Regardless, it has become obvious Dunn is no longer a great fit here. Which is too bad, because he’ll leave here with everyone wanting more. Fans who loved him even a year ago have run out of patience with him now. They heard Dunn talk about being a “great” outfielder. They heard of his offseason and spring work with hitting coach Brook Jacoby.

They saw him hit balls to left field the first few weeks of the season. They saw a lightbulb turn on. They were pleased.

Only now, the season’s a mess, Dunn hasn’t become a great outfielder and he has struck out 83 times in 220 at-bats. He is who he is. Probably, always will be. It’s not all bad, and if the Reds were playing well, he wouldn’t be hearing the critical noise.

But they aren’t, and he is.

Some of us made our peace with the Big Donkey. Some of us, after the last two months of last season, saw the unmet potential and shrugged, the way Dunn might. Forty and 100, with 100 runs scored, ain’t bad. A guy could make $10 million a year playing baseball with those numbers.

If he’s traded, it’d open a spot for Norris Hopper to play every day. It’d signal from Krivsky the next meaningful shift in philosophy. The first was trading Wily Mo Pena for Bronson Arroyo. It’d remove a laid-back clubhouse presence, for better or worse.

It’d ship a lot of runs out of town, too. Several scouts were at Great American Ball Park by late this afternoon. They weren’t looking at Eric Milton.

In the end that is what really scares me about trading Dunn, the fact that some in the organization might actually think Hopper is an everyday player.

If they don't get a young RH OF bat in return for Dunn it will be a long cold winter before spring returns for the Reds.

WVPacman
06-13-2007, 12:13 AM
See thats exactly what almost all of us have been saying.To trade Dunn or any other young player would destroy this team for yet another seven years. THANK YOU PAUL DAUGHERTY

RedEye
06-13-2007, 12:15 AM
See thats exactly what almost all of us have been saying.To trade Dunn or any other young player would destroy this team for yet another seven years. THANK YOU PAUL DAUGHERTY

Except I don't think that Daugherty is really saying that Dunn shouldn't be traded. I think he's much more ambivalent than that...

wheels
06-13-2007, 12:18 AM
The Norris Hopper thing is mind boggling.

It really is. I can't stop shaking my head.

RedsMan3203
06-13-2007, 12:18 AM
If WK trades... That is the begining of the end of his GM life...

It would be difficult to swallow.. Losing Pena and then Kearns... (still believes the trade was for the best) and then Dunn.

It would be crazy and uncalled for...

I mean check this OF would... Hopper/Hamebone/Freel - Thats gonna win some games.

RedEye
06-13-2007, 12:21 AM
Somehow I doubt that both Dunn and Griffey will be traded. Frankly, we just don't have enough OF to go around right now with Freel on the shelf. I suspect that Wayne is probably shopping both of them right now, and that he will deal the one he can get the best return for. Let's hope his next big trade is better than his last one!

WVPacman
06-13-2007, 12:29 AM
Except I don't think that Daugherty is really saying that Dunn shouldn't be traded. I think he's much more ambivalent than that...

Oh I know that, I think he is just saying with those kind of stats 42 homers, 95 RBI and 104 runs scored the last three years and hes only 27 that the reds front office should give thie guy more credit.Instead of giving Dunn any credit for putting those kind of numbers on a bad team since he has been here they are throwing him under the bus and on the trading block.Just think what kind of numbers he would put up if we had a good team ever year?? It would be scary!!I think he needs to stay b/c he could help the reds become a better team for years besides the way he has been struggling do they really think we will get anybody good in return in a trade now??

Its just frustrating to watch our young players get traded year in and year out. I mean I would'nt mind to trade Dunn IF we would get a talented player back and the truth is we are'nt getting nothing good back as of now b/c Dunn is struggling big time.

TeamBoone
06-13-2007, 12:34 AM
RBI just under 100 last year; over 100 the two seasons preceding that.

RedEye
06-13-2007, 12:46 AM
Oh I know that, I think he is just saying with those kind of stats 42 homers, 95 RBI and 104 runs scored the last three years and hes only 27 that the reds front office should give thie guy more credit.Instead of giving Dunn any credit for putting those kind of numbers on a bad team since he has been here they are throwing him under the bus and on the trading block.Just think what kind of numbers he would put up if we had a good team ever year?? It would be scary!!I think he needs to stay b/c he could help the reds become a better team for years besides the way he has been struggling do they really think we will get anybody good in return in a trade now??

Its just frustrating to watch our young players get traded year in and year out. I mean I would'nt mind to trade Dunn IF we would get a talented player back and the truth is we are'nt getting nothing good back as of now b/c Dunn is struggling big time.

I agree with you about Dunn. He puts up pretty good stats and takes a lot more flack than he should.

I also think that Daugherty has a pretty good read on the way we "analytical" Reds fans think about this player others love to hate. The resignation of Daugherty's sarcasm just hits the right tone for me. Paul's like us: he wishes Dunn were more valued, but realizes he isn't, and just hopes that we'll get something of value in return when Dunn is traded (and that's when, not if).

It's a sorry state of affairs. It really is.

WVPacman
06-13-2007, 12:51 AM
I agree with you about Dunn. He puts up pretty good stats and takes a lot more flack than he should.

I also think that Daugherty has a pretty good read on the way we "analytical" Reds fans think about this player others love to hate. The resignation of Daugherty's sarcasm just hits the right tone for me. Paul's like us: he wishes Dunn were more valued, but realizes he isn't, and just hopes that we'll get something of value in return when Dunn is traded (and that's when, not if).

It's a sorry state of affairs. It really is.

I agree with you 100%

RedLegSuperStar
06-13-2007, 01:03 AM
I still can't fathem Dunn being dealt.. this year. Dunn could be dealt in the offseaon though. I'm on the other side of the trade Dunn fence.. only if the trade partner is the Dodgers. Dodgers have a surplus of youth and this is the Reds chance to stock up. What's to say Dunn wouldn't bolt for Houston when his contract is up? He's already stated he would love to play there. There's always going to be "if's" and there's always going to be the "what if's". I just think this team isn't going anywhere this season and with purhaps a Billingsley and Kemp/or Ethier type deal it balances out. We get a rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Billingsley, and Belisle/Lohse. As for Kemp or Ethier they add an upgrade to the defense and they are more of situational hitters as opposed to just a homerun hitter. Homeruns are great and exciting.. but this team needs those who can hit with runners in scoring position and don't strike out nearly 200 times. Dunn sells tickets which would hurt sales if a deal is done..unless this team is so far out of it as the deadline nears. This would be a savings of over 11+ million dollars next year because all three of the mentioned make near the league minimum and Dunns option is for 13 million next year. Add Miltons contract to that and this team can actually add some significant upgrades. But in no way should this team deal Dunn to deal Dunn and I don't want that to come acrossed that way. Dunn for bullpen help and a washed up utility player are not what this team needs. If Dunn is dealt the Reds need to get the highest value in return and don't take anything less. Billingsley isn't being used like last season and Kemp isn't either.. so asking for those two may be right up the Reds alley.

RedEye
06-13-2007, 01:06 AM
I still can't fathem Dunn being dealt.. this year. Dunn could be dealt in the offseaon though. I'm on the other side of the trade Dunn fence.. only if the trade partner is the Dodgers. Dodgers have a surplus of youth and this is the Reds chance to stock up. What's to say Dunn wouldn't bolt for Houston when his contract is up? He's already stated he would love to play there. There's always going to be "if's" and there's always going to be the "what if's". I just think this team isn't going anywhere this season and with purhaps a Billingsley and Kemp/or Ethier type deal it balances out. We get a rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Billingsley, and Belisle/Lohse. As for Kemp or Ethier they add an upgrade to the defense and they are more of situational hitters as opposed to just a homerun hitter. Homeruns are great and exciting.. but this team needs those who can hit with runners in scoring position and don't strike out nearly 200 times. Dunn sells tickets which would hurt sales if a deal is done..unless this team is so far out of it as the deadline nears. This would be a savings of over 11+ million dollars next year because all three of the mentioned make near the league minimum and Dunns option is for 13 million next year. Add Miltons contract to that and this team can actually add some significant upgrades. But in no way should this team deal Dunn to deal Dunn and I don't want that to come acrossed that way. Dunn for bullpen help and a washed up utility player are not what this team needs. If Dunn is dealt the Reds need to get the highest value in return and don't take anything less. Billingsley isn't being used like last season and Kemp isn't either.. so asking for those two may be right up the Reds alley.

I think we're really agreeing more than you think. We're not really on two different sides of the fence. My main point is that 1) it's sad we're probably going to trade Dunn and 1a) it's even sadder that we probably won't get anything good in return for him.

cincyinco
06-13-2007, 01:37 AM
question..

I know if dunn is traded this year it voids the 08 option.

but what if we exercise the 08 option and then attempt to trade him? what happens under this scenario?

KronoRed
06-13-2007, 01:58 AM
If we trade him at anytime before the offseason it voids, in the offseason we pick it up or he's a FA...also I thought I'd read where picking it up also kicks a limited no trade clause in?

MartyFan
06-13-2007, 02:00 AM
I don't think Dunn is the difference maker this team needs. Not now, not a year or two from now.

This team needs some attitude, confidence and some leadership...both Junior and Dunn are way too placid to be the spark this team needs...they will go out and get their numbers, be GREAT TEAM MATES, encourage others to go out and try real hard and all that...but we need a Greg Vaughn...yeah, I said it...Someone who is used to winning (at any level) to come in and start rattling the cages to get guys on this team to start playing "the right way"...doing the little things.

Then we need to have the BP act like they have the last week.

Just my thoughts

RedEye
06-13-2007, 02:14 AM
I don't think Dunn is the difference maker this team needs. Not now, not a year or two from now.

This team needs some attitude, confidence and some leadership...both Junior and Dunn are way too placid to be the spark this team needs...they will go out and get their numbers, be GREAT TEAM MATES, encourage others to go out and try real hard and all that...but we need a Greg Vaughn...yeah, I said it...Someone who is used to winning (at any level) to come in and start rattling the cages to get guys on this team to start playing "the right way"...doing the little things.

Then we need to have the BP act like they have the last week.

Just my thoughts

I don't think anyone's arguing that Dunn is a "rattle their cages" type player. Never has been, never will be. It's just not his style. What he is, however, is a rare 40-100-100-100 player who has been consistently undervalued by Reds fans outside of this board. Does that mean he should not be traded? Not necessarily. It just means that the Reds should be careful when they consider potential offers. And something tells me that they won't be quite careful enough.

mth123
06-13-2007, 05:22 AM
Look, we all have some Cincinnai roots or we wouldn't be on here. Deep down, we all like the firey type that inspires you with the way they play. But the truth is, if that matters at all in terms of wins and losses its marginal and is really only the cherry on top of the sundae that the talent on the team creates. IMO w/o Dunn (or a replacement for his production) there won't be a very good sundae for that cherry to sit on.

I'm not sure there is enough hand clapping and dirty uniforms available to make up for the loss of 40HR, 100 Runs and 100 RBI (or Dunn's OBP and Slugging for the more stat enlightened). That said, I'm more open to a Dunn trade now than I have ever been. If good talent can be acquired it may be just as well. Looking at Dunn's OBP in 2007 has me wondering if the team (out of a lack of understanding what it has) hasn't tinkered with him so much that he's messed-up beyond repair. Those clamoring for Dunn to swing more on the close and questionable have gotten just what they wanted. He's swinging (and missing pitches he can't handle) more and his K's have increased his walks have dropped, he makes more outs than ever, but hey that BA is up 16 points from last year so I guess its working. Yippeee!!!!!

Ltlabner
06-13-2007, 06:20 AM
Those clamoring for Dunn to swing more on the close and questionable have gotten just what they wanted. He's swinging (and missing pitches he can't handle) more and his K's have increased his walks have dropped, he makes more outs than ever, but hey that BA is up 16 points from last year so I guess its working. Yippeee!!!!!

That's one scenario. But do we really know that (1) he's swinging more and (2) those swings are at close and questionable pitches? Perhaps they are and it is just how you describe. But because his walks have dropped doesn't prove that this is what is happening.

It could also be a mechnical thing. He's still swining at "his" pitches but missing. It could also be a downgrade in skills ala a young player with old player skills. It may be something else that I can't think of right now. Hahahah

I wonder how many pitches per plate appearnce he's taking. Wonder if that has dropped too?

Highlifeman21
06-13-2007, 06:54 AM
It finally happened.

Adam Dunn compared to Kingman, Deer and Luzinski all in the same article. Hell, in the same sentence.

Some people will be glad when Norris Hopper gets his everyday spot in the lineup thanks to a Dunn trade.

I will despise Hopper to another degree, and this FO to an unprecedented level.

Ltlabner
06-13-2007, 07:30 AM
Adam Dunn compared to Kingman, Deer and Luzinski all in the same article. Hell, in the same sentence.

FWIW, the BP guide for 2007 lists Deer as one of his comparables. The Luzinski isn't too far off is it? (see numbers below). And while I know everybody hates the Kingman comparison, I hope Dunner emulates the length of playing time and age of retirement. Kingman is the only one of this entire list that played past his early 30's. (Deer splits the difference).

Again FWIW BP also list Troy Glaus, Mike Epstein and Kevin Maas (yeech) as Dunn comps.





Seasons Age of
(Translated) BA OBP SLG in MLB Retirment

Troy Glaus .257 .366 .532 10 30
Mike Epstein .263 .374 .500 13 31
Kevin Maas .244 .346 .498 5 30
Rob Deer .226 .334 .506 12 35

Adam Dunn .243 .371 .524 ? ?

Greg Luzinski .271 .365 .530 15 33
Dave Kingman .235 .307 .535 19 37

redsmetz
06-13-2007, 07:41 AM
I thought this was one of Daugherty's more flawed columns on a couple of accounts. He wrote:


No love for 334 walks between 2004 and 2006. No time for 179 homers in the previous five seasons. Only seven current players have hit more long balls during that time. It’s practically a Hall of Fame lineup: Rodriguez, Pujols, Ortiz, Ramirez, Jones, Thome, Soriano ... Dunn.

No love for our town’s Dave Kingman, Greg Luzinski and Rob Deer.

Huh? He places Dunn among the pantheon of some of the best players in the game today, then he turns around and hooks him to three players who basically were one-trick ponies? Particularly Deer?

He later explains about Dunn's contract and states simply that the Reds aren't likely to pick up his option at $13 million. Again, what? I doubt seriously that the Reds would allow Dunn to just walk after this year. Even with the limited trade protection early next season, they would be better off taking the option and trading him close to next year's deadline.

Elsewhere in the Enquirer, they had a piece about Dunn's contract and his comment that it was structured the way it was for a reason - he wanted protection ultimately as to who he would be traded to if that were to occur. He repeated that he wants to stay here, but understands the business side doesn't always allow that.

That said, I continue to think we'll ultimately regret letting him go, good return or not. Perhaps Daugherty is acknowledging without saying it that the average Reds fan is a dope.

GAC
06-13-2007, 08:22 AM
Even if Dunn is traded, I don't think Krivsky envisions Hopper as his everyday replacement in LF. Sorry, not buyinng it, and no where has that been indicated anywhere. Lets not get panicy.

Did anyone here Daugherty's comments played on WLW Tuesday morning? I'm not sure if they were from his show the previous night or not, or if Jim Scott was doing an interview with him; but he was showing no love/appreciation for Dunn at all. He said he'd dump him for a several rosin bags just to get the 13 mil off the books. Why? (according to Daugherty)..... basically he's a defensive liability anywhere he plays in the field, hit's monstrous HRs with nobody on, can't produce in the clutch, and the Reds can't afford that, referring to the 13 mil due.

Daugherty also had no love for Hopper either. Called him NoHo. :lol:

lollipopcurve
06-13-2007, 09:04 AM
I will despise Hopper to another degree

Thinking that a Dunn trade would have anything to do with Norris Hopper is a mistake.

wheels
06-13-2007, 09:14 AM
Thinking that a Dunn trade would have anything to do with Norris Hopper is a mistake.

I don't know about that.

The anti-Dunn bandwagon is running full bore, with Hopper as it's muse. Just listen to Marty Brennaman.

Krusty
06-13-2007, 09:26 AM
This team hasn't won a thing with Dunn and Griffey on the roster. So what are you losing at this point if he is traded?

RichRed
06-13-2007, 09:43 AM
Did anyone here Daugherty's comments played on WLW Tuesday morning? I'm not sure if they were from his show the previous night or not, or if Jim Scott was doing an interview with him; but he was showing no love/appreciation for Dunn at all. He said he'd dump him for a several rosin bags just to get the 13 mil off the books. Why? (according to Daugherty)..... basically he's a defensive liability anywhere he plays in the field, hit's monstrous HRs with nobody on, can't produce in the clutch, and the Reds can't afford that, referring to the 13 mil due.


Exactly. This is why the first paragraph of his article is strange to me because every time I've heard him speak, HE'S one of those who "underappreciates" what Dunn brings to the table.

He spews the same unsubstantiated garbage that you mention above (meaningless HRs, indifferent attitude, non-clutch, etc.) that Marty does. He's referred to him as the Reds' Dave Kingman on more than one occasion.

If Marty is the captain of the anti-Dunn ship, Daugherty is the first mate, yet he tries to come across in the article as if he's just an interested observer.

NC Reds
06-13-2007, 09:59 AM
I have said this a million times and I will say it a million times more - Dunn is not the problem in Cincinnati. Dunn is not why we aren't winning games. Griffey and Dunn are the most feared hitters in the lineup. Norris Hopper is strictly AAAA. I do advocate trading Griffey because of his age.

Keep Dunn, bring up Votto, and jettison all of the non-performing veteran relievers. Fire Narron and Krivsky. Bring in a GM that has figured out how bad Juan Castro is and release him as well.

The core of a good offense (Dunn, Hamilton, EdE, Votto, Bruce) for a long time is on the horizon (late 2008 is my prediction for Bruce) - now watch Krivsky louse it up.

westofyou
06-13-2007, 10:03 AM
This team hasn't won a thing with Dunn and Griffey on the roster. So what are you losing at this point if he is traded?

Why don't they trade Marty and Paul then?

At least the city would get a tad smarter on the issue.

Then they can trade Dunn and Griffey for another relief pitcher who will fail and we can all marvel at Hoppers 2 strike approach and sub .400 slg %.

Yipeeeee

BRM
06-13-2007, 10:06 AM
Why don't they trade Marty and Paul then?


I like the premise but I'm not sure there's much value there. What could the Reds get in return for those two? A couple of transistor radios?

edabbs44
06-13-2007, 10:14 AM
This team hasn't won a thing with Dunn and Griffey on the roster. So what are you losing at this point if he is traded?

Bravo...if you can get a few pieces for Adam Dunn and then spend his salary on more talent, I'm all ears.

BTW, I didn't realize how similar Luzinski and Dunn are to this point in Adam's career. Luzinski had more BA and a little less HRs, but wow.

Kc61
06-13-2007, 10:16 AM
If the Reds trade Dunn, and possibly Griffey, can they be a better team? Yes, but only if they get the right players -- in the trades or elsewhere -- to fill the positions.

Without Dunn and Griffey, the Reds have one starting caliber outfielder, Hamilton. And I don't think Hamilton should be in center. He should probably be in right.

Freel is obviously a big question mark out there. Hopper is a fourth outfielder or platoon man in my book. Neither is the everyday centerfielder for a host of reasons.

Jay Bruce will be up soon. He is the real deal, so you only need a stopgap in his position -- which is also a corner outfield position.

So -- if you remake this outfield you need a true centerfielder. My concept is Hamilton in right, Bruce in left, and a true centerfielder yet to be acquired. I'm leaving out Stubbs who is a long way away.

KoryMac5
06-13-2007, 11:47 AM
It finally happened.

Adam Dunn compared to Kingman, Deer and Luzinski all in the same article. Hell, in the same sentence.

Some people will be glad when Norris Hopper gets his everyday spot in the lineup thanks to a Dunn trade.

I will despise Hopper to another degree, and this FO to an unprecedented level.

I haven't heard the FO mention playing Hopper everyday. I just can't phathom anyone being that naive to think Norris Hopper is an everyday player. That being said this FO isn't always the best judge of talent. :bang:

paulrichjr
06-13-2007, 12:19 PM
If the Reds trade Dunn, and possibly Griffey, can they be a better team? Yes, but only if they get the right players -- in the trades or elsewhere -- to fill the positions.

Without Dunn and Griffey, the Reds have one starting caliber outfielder, Hamilton. And I don't think Hamilton should be in center. He should probably be in right.

Freel is obviously a big question mark out there. Hopper is a fourth outfielder or platoon man in my book. Neither is the everyday centerfielder for a host of reasons.

Jay Bruce will be up soon. He is the real deal, so you only need a stopgap in his position -- which is also a corner outfield position.

So -- if you remake this outfield you need a true centerfielder. My concept is Hamilton in right, Bruce in left, and a true centerfielder yet to be acquired. I'm leaving out Stubbs who is a long way away.


I agree with everything you said. If we trade these guys then get something out of them or let Dunn especially go as a free agent and get some draft choices. Don't trade for more junk. If we are going to break it down then do it the right way. Don't half do it like they did with JimBo. I will say this though...I'm not so sure that this team is one of the worst teams in baseball and I could easily see us 4 to 5 games back in 2 weeks. Then what?

KronoRed
06-13-2007, 12:35 PM
This team hasn't won a thing with Dunn and Griffey on the roster. So what are you losing at this point if he is traded?

Could say the same for Harang and Arroyo

TeamBoone
06-13-2007, 03:45 PM
I find it odd how some people think two guys stink because the 9-PLAYER team they are on isn't winning... and how that somehow seems to translate into those two men being worthless.

Boggles my mind.

vaticanplum
06-13-2007, 10:37 PM
This team is so silly.

paintmered
06-13-2007, 10:49 PM
This city is so silly.

I agree.

KronoRed
06-13-2007, 10:56 PM
This team is so silly.

If you ain't Big Red Machine like you ain't nothin

WVRedsFan
06-14-2007, 01:58 AM
Forgive me...

Madman Krivsky in his desire to create a team that relies on pitching and defense (in GABP, no doubt--a place where you can "get em on, get em over and get em in" all night and a three run homer will beat you) supposedly wants to trade Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey for salary reasons and pitching (like he can judge pitching--Gary Majewski, Mike Stanton, Kirk Saarloos, et al).

My prediction is he will pull the trigger on one of these players in return for prospect pitching (something he has failed at horrilbly), and watch that 4.51 runs per game average go down to 3.7 runs per game and no pitching on earth can correct that. Worst case scenario is both will be traded. Would he bring up the younsters? No. Veterans. That's the ticket. Before you go ballastic and post criticisms, look at the record. Hatteberg, Conine, Clayton, Stanton, and a host of others usually fill the bill.

This is lunacy.

Ron Madden
06-14-2007, 03:28 AM
I have to say I enjoyed listening to the game last night. Hated that the Reds lost the game but they just got beat.

Neighther Joe or Thom dwelled on every little mistake, like Reds hitters taking a strike or Reds pitchers throwing a ball out of the strikezone.

The Reds played a good game and lost. I just thought it was refreshing to listen to announcers who were not looking for one player to blame for that loss.

Daugherty is no diifferent from the rest of the local media, they all follow Marty's lead.

redsmetz
06-14-2007, 05:43 AM
Forgive me...

Madman Krivsky in his desire to create a team that relies on pitching and defense (in GABP, no doubt--a place where you can "get em on, get em over and get em in" all night and a three run homer will beat you) supposedly wants to trade Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey for salary reasons and pitching (like he can judge pitching--Gary Majewski, Mike Stanton, Kirk Saarloos, et al).

My prediction is he will pull the trigger on one of these players in return for prospect pitching (something he has failed at horrilbly), and watch that 4.51 runs per game average go down to 3.7 runs per game and no pitching on earth can correct that. Worst case scenario is both will be traded. Would he bring up the younsters? No. Veterans. That's the ticket. Before you go ballastic and post criticisms, look at the record. Hatteberg, Conine, Clayton, Stanton, and a host of others usually fill the bill.

This is lunacy.

I forgive you - for being just a bit myopic.

One can focus all you want on the sole vets WK has signed, but even that's a bit myopic. Hatterberg/Conine, clearly understood as caretakers until the future arrives (Votto) are putting up decent numbers in their platoon; Clayton was always recognized as nothing more than a throw-in - I wouldn't have bothered, but it didn't change that he was just a throw-in. Stanton in the last week is finally pitching like what I think the Reds expected from him.

So the "host of others"? Just on the current active roster: Arroyo (30), Lohse (28), Majewski (27), McBeth (26), Gonzalez (30), Ross (30), Phillips (25), Hamilton (26) - hardly an AARP member there - not an AARP member there and all WK acquisitions. I'll give you Santos at 32 as creeping up there.

This club has been underperforming the entire season - it's got nothing to do with "vet love" or any such nonsense. The new ownership inherited a disaster and it will take time to correct it. The media tells us they're shopping Griffey and Dunn. I expect most every team throws up flyers on many of their top players to see what the market will bear. It doesn't mean they're trading them and WK, wisely I think, keeps out of the fray (unlike one predecessor who Marty leaves unnamed) who couldn't shut his yap about anything. I can't say what will happen, but management is staffed by Madmen, as you so eloquently put it.

Always Red
06-14-2007, 07:12 AM
I will despise Hopper to another degree

Really? I don't know him at all, is he a jerk or something, what kind of a guy is he? ;)

Now I have no problem rooting for a guy like Hopper to do well, but most here fully realize Hopper's role on any team- 4th or 5th OF. He was hot, and hitting about .340 2 weeks ago, and has considerably cooled off since- down to .287.
Narron doesn't know how to ride a hot streak and how to lay off, that's for sure.

I don't know why you'd despise Hopper? It's not about him. It's about how JN and the FO could allow any 5th OF to play as much as he does, or to encourage so much talk of him replacing Dunn in LF. I've been reading that all over town for the last week, from the Enquirer to Lance to Marty, and every time I hear it, it makes me want to hurl.

I can despise a front office that values Hopper over Dunn, but no way do I blame or despise Norris Hopper because of it.

redsmetz
06-14-2007, 07:17 AM
Just a follow up to my last post - I had to rush it to get out for my walk.

Certainly things haven't gone perfectly. There have been arguable moves (e.g. "The Trade") that didn't meet short term goals and their long term results can't be known yet.

But to fall on the tired old saw that there's serious vet love going on here is just a quick route that doesn't always stand up. I think this team is growing increasingly younger. Even moves that some will characterize as failures, aren't necessarily that. Some might argue that Saarloos in Louisville is a failure of that trade, and yet I would suggest that acquiring a pitcher with options who can be sent down to work out problems and come back a better ML pitcher isn't necessarily a failure. The other Rule V pick, Jared Burton, is going to be a tough act to get through this season, but DL'ing him and then a rehab assignment buys us time with what will very likely be an astute pick up. Him being on the roster this year is problematic, but hopefully it will pay off dividends in subsequent years as (and, yes, if) he develops.

These are works in progress. The losing is obviously frustrating, but I like the direction this team is heading ultimately. This isn't the first time in Reds history that the team has stunk up the universe, but I think we'll make quicker progress than it feels like right now.

MartyFan
06-14-2007, 07:19 AM
I don't think anyone's arguing that Dunn is a "rattle their cages" type player. Never has been, never will be. It's just not his style. What he is, however, is a rare 40-100-100-100 player who has been consistently undervalued by Reds fans outside of this board. Does that mean he should not be traded? Not necessarily. It just means that the Reds should be careful when they consider potential offers. And something tells me that they won't be quite careful enough.

I agree. BUT this team needs that sort of person...NOW..I don't think this team is out-classed in the league...I mean MLB. All I was pointing out was that if Dunn, who is an incredible talent, is not going to be the guy to put the Reds over the top but he can bring us the guy who either moves the team closer to that than he is very tradeable. Perhaps we get the stopgap OFer needed until Bruce arrives and some young impact pitching?

redsmetz
06-14-2007, 07:20 AM
I don't know why you'd despise Hopper? It's not about him. It's about how JN and the FO could allow any 5th OF to play as much as he does, or to encourage so much talk of him replacing Dunn in LF. I've been reading that all over town for the last week, from the Enquirer to Lance to Marty, and every time I hear it, it makes me want to hurl.

I can despise a front office that values Hopper over Dunn, but no way do I blame or despise Norris Hopper because of it.

Hopper playing during that time was a result of Freel's injury and Hamilton's illness. Is he getting the playing time now that Hamilton's back - for the most part no. You are correct that he's a good extra outfielder to have and those guys get their playing time throughout the course of any season.

Of course, we don't know that the FO values Hopper over Dunn. Mostly it's from Marty and some of the media making those statements. I believe Wayne's response is a rather terse "no comment" - that's not valuing Hopper over Dunn.

MartyFan
06-14-2007, 07:26 AM
I like Special K because he is always NO COMMENT on players, trades and potential trades...I don't think anyone on the board can say what the F.O. think of any one player...not even EE...who seems to have his focus now.

PLEASE ALLOW ME TO :deadhorse BTW, when did it become a bad thing to send a guy who is under performing down? Before the players Union got so powerful a veteran player could be sent to the minors...now with guaranteed contracts, guaranteed slots, a player needs only to put in his time, be the best at that spot on his team and he is set! THIS ENDS MY :deadhorse

Highlifeman21
06-14-2007, 07:37 AM
This team hasn't won a thing with Dunn and Griffey on the roster. So what are you losing at this point if he is traded?

Offensive production in truckloads.

A cornerstone franchise player.

Highlifeman21
06-14-2007, 07:44 AM
Really? I don't know him at all, is he a jerk or something, what kind of a guy is he? ;)

Now I have no problem rooting for a guy like Hopper to do well, but most here fully realize Hopper's role on any team- 4th or 5th OF. He was hot, and hitting about .340 2 weeks ago, and has considerably cooled off since- down to .287.
Narron doesn't know how to ride a hot streak and how to lay off, that's for sure.

I don't know why you'd despise Hopper? It's not about him. It's about how JN and the FO could allow any 5th OF to play as much as he does, or to encourage so much talk of him replacing Dunn in LF. I've been reading that all over town for the last week, from the Enquirer to Lance to Marty, and every time I hear it, it makes me want to hurl.

I can despise a front office that values Hopper over Dunn, but no way do I blame or despise Norris Hopper because of it.

I lump Norris Hopper into contributing to Chris Denorfia being traded, fueling more heated rumors of Adam Dunn on his way out of town, and the Fall of the Roman Empire.

I'm sure he even had a hand in the JFK assassination, and the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.

Ravenlord
06-14-2007, 08:00 AM
... but no way do I blame or despise Norris Hopper because of it.

if anything Hopper should be encouraged to keep pushing the issue even though his absolute peak is worth less than Dunn's career norm.

Always Red
06-14-2007, 08:08 AM
I lump Norris Hopper into contributing to Chris Denorfia being traded, fueling more heated rumors of Adam Dunn on his way out of town, and the Fall of the Roman Empire.

I'm sure he even had a hand in the JFK assassination, and the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I think Hopper assassinated Deno's arm, come to think of it....

coachw513
06-14-2007, 08:10 AM
Offensive production in truckloads.. Absolutely



A cornerstone franchise player. Absolutely not IMHO

Redsland
06-14-2007, 10:08 AM
Clayton was always recognized as nothing more than a throw-in…
That's simply not true. Krivsky wanted to improve the defense at the shortstop position. So he traded Lopez away and "upgraded" to Clayton.

Any other interpretation requires you to assume that two everyday starting players (and a total of three #1 draft picks) are only worth two middle relievers and some throw-ins. That's absurd.

redsmetz
06-14-2007, 10:28 AM
That's simply not true. Krivsky wanted to improve the defense at the shortstop position. So he traded Lopez away and "upgraded" to Clayton.

Any other interpretation requires you to assume that two everyday starting players (and a total of three #1 draft picks) are only worth two middle relievers and some throw-ins. That's absurd.

Oh, Wayne did the whole song and dance, but did anyone believe that Clayton would be with this club this year? We all knew he was a rental. Have you ever heard a manager or GM not extol the virtues of some player or another this way? That said, again no one expected him to be here beyond last season. You're fooling yourself if you think that.

Redsland
06-14-2007, 10:55 AM
Wayne saw Clayton as a veteran rental player who would improve the defense and help push the club into the playoffs. He was a key part of last year's win-now push.

westofyou
06-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Wayne saw Clayton as a veteran rental player who would improve the defense and help push the club into the playoffs. He was a key part of last year's win-now push.

He also had a reputation as someone who didn't "share" well and the Reds needed a body to fill in for the departed FL. Considering Lopez's ineptness at SS it was a wash in the field, more or less. Neither of them was going to win the Roy McMillian award however.