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BCubb2003
06-15-2007, 01:14 AM
Cincinnati treats Adam Dunn like Boston treated Ted Williams and New York treated Joe DiMaggio.

Is there a metric for wanting to win?

Or does the player have to come up with a name like "Operation Shutdown"?

Remember when the only metric in baseball was on the outfield wall at Riverfront?

It would be cool if the people who were in charge of the Reds Hall of Fame were in charge of the Reds broadcasting network.

Homer Bailey probably wishes he had Louisville's bullpen.

The pitcher has a say in how many pitches a batter gets to see.

Maybe Dunn wouldn't strike out so much if he went to umpiring school.

Does anybody know who's made the most outs on the team this year?

New marketing slogan: "It's obvious our players aren't using steroids."

Ron Madden
06-15-2007, 03:01 AM
Great stuff BCubb, :laugh:

Cincinnati treats Adam Dunn like Boston treated Ted Williams and New York treated Joe Di Maggio.

As far back as I can remember Reds Fans have shown a lack of appreciation for some very talented power hitters. Frank Robinson, Eric Davis and now it's Adam Dunn. It breaks my heart and boggles my mind.

Razor Shines
06-15-2007, 03:14 AM
Great stuff BCubb, :laugh:

Cincinnati treats Adam Dunn like Boston treated Ted Williams and New York treated Joe Di Maggio.

As far back as I can remember Reds Fans have shown a lack of appreciation for some very talented power hitters. Frank Robinson, Eric Davis and now it's Adam Dunn. It breaks my heart and boggles my mind.

Wow, Eric Davis wasn't appreciated? I was probably too young to notice things like that when he was here. I loved him, but that was mostly because my dad always talked about how hard he played and how good he was. I guess I just assumed he was loved by the city.

What exactly was the biggest beef with Davis?

Ron Madden
06-15-2007, 05:43 AM
Wow, Eric Davis wasn't appreciated? I was probably too young to notice things like that when he was here. I loved him, but that was mostly because my dad always talked about how hard he played and how good he was. I guess I just assumed he was loved by the city.

What exactly was the biggest beef with Davis?


It got pretty nasty for Eric on his first tour of duty in Cincinnati.

WLW radio host started calling him Erica and saying he was a sissy for missing games due to injury.

Some fans even started to boo him and chant Erica at him down at the ball park. Got awful ugly and cruel in my humble opinion.

creek14
06-15-2007, 06:23 AM
Eric wasn't appreciated until he was no longer a Red.

It's said Cincinnati has some of the smartest fans in baseball. Sure doesn't say much for the rest of the league.

Edskin
06-15-2007, 08:38 AM
New marketing slogan: "It's obvious our players aren't using steroids."

Excellent :)

redsmetz
06-15-2007, 08:52 AM
Eric wasn't appreciated until he was no longer a Red.

It's said Cincinnati has some of the smartest fans in baseball. Sure doesn't say much for the rest of the league.

It actually took him nearly killing himself to catch a ball and Marge treating him like ****, plus his cancer for Cincy fan's to love him properly.

To be honest, his swing was just about one of the sweetest things of the game and he could run and run and run, whether in the field or on the basepaths. Oh, it's so bittersweet.

coachw513
06-15-2007, 09:37 AM
IIRC, Bench got "slaughtered" in '71 when he and the Reds fell off from their surprising '70 run to the WS...

It's too easy to identify with (as we have coined) "veteran scrapiness" so fans turn their vitriolic ways upon the superstars, guys who in no way can the angry fan identify with...

Dunn's biggest mistake is in being a wonderfully-good, but not great, player in an era where fans deparately needed someone to be GREAT due to our team being woefully bad during this decade...

Sea Ray
06-15-2007, 09:38 AM
Reds' fans had few problems with Eric Davis. They loved him when he played, the problem was he rarely played. His best year he played in about 130 games. That includes pinch hitting, late inning defensive replacements etc. He actually started less than 3 out of every 4 games. You can't "count on" a guy to carry you if he's out that many games. That frustrated Reds' fans and rightly so.

deltachi8
06-15-2007, 09:39 AM
In my life, I invested in exactly one baseball card outside of the "luck of the draw" method of purchasing wax packs. That card was an Eric Davis rookie card.

westofyou
06-15-2007, 09:43 AM
Wow, Eric Davis wasn't appreciated? I was probably too young to notice things like that when he was here. I loved him, but that was mostly because my dad always talked about how hard he played and how good he was. I guess I just assumed he was loved by the city.

What exactly was the biggest beef with Davis?;
http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/ed1.gif

Sea Ray
06-15-2007, 09:43 AM
Dunn's biggest mistake is in being a wonderfully-good, but not great, player in an era where fans deparately needed someone to be GREAT due to our team being woefully bad during this decade...


That's very debatable. When the Reds needed Dunn the most, last year in Sept, he knocked in 3 runs. To me "wonderfully good" makes an All Star team (at the very least) as a backup. He's not even good enough to warrant All Star status. He along with Griffey is one of the Reds greatest offensive threats, although that's not saying much. The question comes down to this: is he worth $13mill or more a year?

westofyou
06-15-2007, 09:44 AM
In my life, I invested in exactly one baseball card outside of the "luck of the draw" method of purchasing wax packs. That card was an Eric Davis rookie card.

Me too, I bought an autograph ED Card at the Berkeley Flea Market in 1989.

westofyou
06-15-2007, 10:04 AM
He's not even good enough to warrant All Star status. He along with Griffey is one of the Reds greatest offensive threats, although that's not saying much.

Here are the vote leaders:

Carlos Beltran, Ken Griffey Jr. and Soriano

Now the Players vote on th eremaining players and despite the idea that the players have some additional knowledge that makes them highly qualified for selecting All-Stars, their picks can be categorized as “the guys with good Triple Crown stats in the season’s first few months.” I bet Matt Holliday gets in here, maybe Carlos Lee or Jason Bay would also sneak in ahead of Bonds and yes... even Adam Dunn.

BTW Vada Pinson only made 4 AS games and he played in the years they had two.

macro
06-15-2007, 10:23 AM
Remember when the only metric in baseball was on the outfield wall at Riverfront?

By the year 2000, the United States will be using the metric system exclusively, so we should get used to it.


WLW radio host started calling him Erica and saying he was a sissy for missing games due to injury.


Yep, that was Bill Cunningham, who also referred to Paula O'Neill. It was more a part of his act than sincere animosity, but I doubt the players appreciated it nevertheless.

MrCinatit
06-15-2007, 10:38 AM
New marketing slogan: "It's obvious our players aren't using steroids."

I like it!

And, yes Eric Davis was brutalized when he was here,which is a shame because I like the guy. I remember the words "prima donna", "injury prone", "lazy" and "self centered" being used freely - it was unfortunately once he left that we realized how much we needed him, and how special of a player he was.

Sea Ray
06-15-2007, 10:48 AM
Here are the vote leaders:

Carlos Beltran, Ken Griffey Jr. and Soriano

Now the Players vote on th eremaining players and despite the idea that the players have some additional knowledge that makes them highly qualified for selecting All-Stars, their picks can be categorized as “the guys with good Triple Crown stats in the season’s first few months.” I bet Matt Holliday gets in here, maybe Carlos Lee or Jason Bay would also sneak in ahead of Bonds and yes... even Adam Dunn.

BTW Vada Pinson only made 4 AS games and he played in the years they had two.


So the coaches don't choose the backups anymore? I didn't know that.

Regardless of who chooses the All Stars, be it the fans, the players or the coaches, my point is the same. It's not just the Cincinnati fans who "devalue" Adam Dunn. Very few seem to think he's one of the top outfielders in the game. He is what he is; a 40 HR guy who walks a lot. Other players don't walk as much but they hit for a higher avg. Some don't hit as many HRs but they knock in more runs. No sense in turning this into another analysis of Adam Dunn's game but my point is it's not just Cincinnati fans who question his worth.

I for one don't think Carlos Lee is worth $100mill over 6 years and I also don't think Adam Dunn is worth $13mill/yr. At $8mill I'm interested.

Redsland
06-15-2007, 11:14 AM
Eric Davis was supposed to be the next Willie Ways. When he wasn't, the fans turned on him.

Adam Dunn was supposed to hit .280/50/150. When he didn't, the fans turned on him.

We've got some pretty high standards around here. :dunno:

KittyDuran
06-15-2007, 11:36 AM
By the year 2000, the United States will be using the metric system exclusively, so we should get used to it.



Yep, that was Bill Cunningham, who also referred to Paula O'Neill. It was more a part of his act than sincere animosity, but I doubt the players appreciated it nevertheless.My favorite of Willie's is "Fifi" LaRue...:)

pedro
06-15-2007, 11:45 AM
That's very debatable. When the Reds needed Dunn the most, last year in Sept, he knocked in 3 runs. To me "wonderfully good" makes an All Star team (at the very least) as a backup. He's not even good enough to warrant All Star status. He along with Griffey is one of the Reds greatest offensive threats, although that's not saying much. The question comes down to this: is he worth $13mill or more a year?

I think using the "All Star" designation as measure of player value is highly flawed, bordering on meaningless.

Chip R
06-15-2007, 11:58 AM
I like it!

And, yes Eric Davis was brutalized when he was here,which is a shame because I like the guy. I remember the words "prima donna", "injury prone", "lazy" and "self centered" being used freely - it was unfortunately once he left that we realized how much we needed him, and how special of a player he was.


Same as it ever was. They aren't appreciated until they are gone.

Redsland
06-15-2007, 12:05 PM
I think using the "All Star" designation as measure of player value is highly flawed, bordering on meaningless.
Say what?
- Signed, Mark Redman

;)

KronoRed
06-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Same as it ever was. They aren't appreciated until they are gone.

Then we blame the owner

Sea Ray
06-15-2007, 01:05 PM
I think using the "All Star" designation as measure of player value is highly flawed, bordering on meaningless.


No question there are lots of meaningless ways to judge a player's value. My point is that if the All Star voters shared the Adam Dunn man love with those that worship OPS numbers he'd be a perennial All Star.

coachw513
06-15-2007, 01:29 PM
That's very debatable. When the Reds needed Dunn the most, last year in Sept, he knocked in 3 runs. To me "wonderfully good" makes an All Star team (at the very least) as a backup. He's not even good enough to warrant All Star status. He along with Griffey is one of the Reds greatest offensive threats, although that's not saying much. The question comes down to this: is he worth $13mill or more a year?

Oh, I agree totally, and IMHO he is NOT worth that money and therefore needs to fetch us some talent in return...I guess my point was part of the angst Reds fans have with Dunn is the lack of star-power around him and a very mediocre product overall...

but I do think he consistently merits attention as an allstar reserve because of the things he DOES do very well (HR/OPS/BB, etc)...he made it in '02 and IIRC at least a couple of other times he's been in the discussion...

We needed Dunn to be Pujols, Ortiz, Guerrrero, but he's simply the enigma known as Adam Dunn...personally, I've enjoyed him very much and will continue to do so, but he IS just Adam Dunn

Sea Ray
06-15-2007, 01:32 PM
Oh, I agree totally, and IMHO he is NOT worth that money and therefore needs to fetch us some talent in return...I guess my point was part of the angst Reds fans have with Dunn is the lack of star-power around him and a very mediocre product overall...

but I do think he consistently merits attention as an allstar reserve because of the things he DOES do very well (HR/OPS/BB, etc)...he made it in '02 and IIRC at least a couple of other times he's been in the discussion...

We needed Dunn to be Pujols, Ortiz, Guerrrero, but he's simply the enigma known as Adam Dunn...personally, I've enjoyed him very much and will continue to do so, but he IS just Adam Dunn


Very well put :)

paintmered
06-15-2007, 01:33 PM
I like it!

And, yes Eric Davis was brutalized when he was here,which is a shame because I like the guy. I remember the words "prima donna", "injury prone", "lazy" and "self centered" being used freely - it was unfortunately once he left that we realized how much we needed him, and how special of a player he was.

The more things change.... :(

pedro
06-15-2007, 02:10 PM
No question there are lots of meaningless ways to judge a player's value. My point is that if the All Star voters shared the Adam Dunn man love with those that worship OPS numbers he'd be a perennial All Star.

"man Love" and "worship" huh? :rolleyes:

gm
06-15-2007, 02:32 PM
To me "wonderfully good" makes an All Star team (at the very least) as a backup. He's not even good enough to warrant All Star status.

Dunn was in the '02 ASG in Milwukee that went 10 innings and ended in a tie. Adam hit a blast to CF that nearly ended the game in regulation.

Another moment I remember from that game...late innings the NL Mgr needed a 1st baseman...it came down between Dunn and Berkman...Adam asked Lance to play 1b because he "didn't want to embarass himself..."

westofyou
06-15-2007, 03:51 PM
"man Love" and "worship" huh? :rolleyes:

Oh mighty OPS come to me in visions that placate my inner sanctum and help me combat the insulting platitudes thrown against the wall regularly here in Redszone country.

BoydsOfSummer
06-16-2007, 03:30 PM
I used to have to defend Eric Davis also.

I paid $17 for my Davis rook in 1987 I believe.

vaticanplum
06-17-2007, 12:16 PM
From what I have read and gathered (because when I was a kid Eric Davis was my god and I had no idea he wasn't that to everybody else either), I do wonder if racism was part of things with the city's reaction towards Davis. I'm not usually quick to buy into that theory, but it's the cocaine rumors that really do it for me in this case...apparently he bore the brunt of those rumors quite a bit, with NO signs or justification for it...but Strawberry was getting a lot of press at the time, and Strawberry was black and from LA too...

Hard to say. Like I said, I wasn't aware of it at the time so that's definitely hindsight speculation on my part.

And I loathe Bill Cunningham. Loathe. I'm not really a hater, and it's possible that's the case because most of my life hatred is directed right at him.

Matt700wlw
06-17-2007, 12:18 PM
From what I have read and gathered (because when I was a kid Eric Davis was my god and I had no idea he wasn't that to everybody else either), I do wonder if racism was part of things with the city's reaction towards Davis. I'm not usually quick to buy into that theory, but it's the cocaine rumors that really do it for me in this case...apparently he bore the brunt of those rumors quite a bit, with NO signs or justification for it...but Strawberry was getting a lot of press at the time, and Strawberry was black and from LA too...

Hard to say. Like I said, I wasn't aware of it at the time so that's definitely hindsight speculation on my part.

And I loathe Bill Cunningham. Loathe. I'm not really a hater, and it's possible that's the case because most of my life hatred is directed right at him.

Loathe Willie? That's impossible....


;)

Big Klu
06-17-2007, 12:27 PM
It got pretty nasty for Eric on his first tour of duty in Cincinnati.

However, in his second tour, I have never seen a player more loved by the fans. Yes, Tony, Pete, and Johnny were as loved--but I don't think they were more loved by the fans than Eric Davis was in 1996.

Jimbo should never have let him go the second time.

KronoRed
06-17-2007, 12:56 PM
However, in his second tour, I have never seen a player more loved by the fans. Yes, Tony, Pete, and Johnny were as loved--but I don't think they were more loved by the fans than Eric Davis was in 1996.


Fans love comeback stories even more, see Hamilton, Josh

Matt700wlw
06-17-2007, 12:59 PM
Fans love comeback stories even more, see Hamilton, Josh

When he was picked up, there were doubters...with his history, his past....



I don't think there are doubters anymore.....he is one of the most amazing things anybody has ever seen.

There may be 3 truely great players of my and people in my age range's lifetime.....Josh Hamilton, A-Rod, and Ken Griffey, Jr.

KronoRed
06-17-2007, 01:03 PM
When he was picked up, there were doubters...with his history, his past....

They were the minority, in ST they were the ones saying he wasn't going to be hitting .400 all year :evil:

bucksfan2
06-18-2007, 10:14 AM
It has always amazed me that most reds fan would rather have a player who they think resembles Pete Rose than a player who actually is good. Reds fan have loved players who have "played hard" and bashed some of their most talented players. Over the past few years the players the fans have loved are LaRue, Casey, Stynes, and Freel. The players who have taken the most heat are Larkin, Griffey, and Dunn. Its funny that the most talented and best players that the reds have are the ones that take the most heat.

RedsManRick
06-18-2007, 10:46 AM
I like this quote from Bill James, "...there is no logic to admiring athletes, anyway. It's just arbitrary. It's like admiring people who won the lottery."

There are many reasons we cheer. Sometimes we cheer an outcome. Sometimes we cheer a specific event. Sometimes we cheer a player. Of course, these often overlap, but not always. When we cheer the outcome or the event, the quality of the player tends to be irrelevant. We might be cheering for the player too, but it isn't necessary.

But when we cheer the player, we are cheering the person moreso than the accomplishment itself. We don't cheer lottery winners. We don't cheer the player who wins the coin toss to start a football game. We are cheering to show our appreciation for their hard work and effort it took for that accomplishment. When you cheer a Pete Rose, the feeling is that you are cheering his work ethic, quite literally. You cheer Chris Stynes because you feel like he's what you could've been if you worked harder and practiced more when you were young. You are cheering his success precisely because he didn't win the talent lottery. (of course, actually he did -- he just won like $100,000 instead of $10,000,000... not the point thought).

So when Dunn succeeds, we marvel. We cheer the accomplishment. But at the same time, we feel like the ability to do so was something he lucked in to, not something he's worked hard to develop. It can be hard to tell the difference when the homers are raining, but while we still cheer, but we aren't celebrating the person. Then, when the accomplishments stop, we suddenly feel robbed. If only he had worked harder, tried more. Sure, he won the lottery and that's fun. But what did he do with his winnings?

What's sad to me is that it's not necessarily true that those guys aren't trying hard, aren't working as hard. It just doesn't show on the field of play necessarily. For many fans, the enjoyment of baseball comes from the ability to project ones self on to the field. If a guy seems to be coasting on talent, and not on effort, it harms our ability to identify. So long as that player wows with accomplishment, he'll be lauded. But as soon as it stops, it will be gone unless it's backed by appreciation of perceived character.

Jpup
06-18-2007, 10:56 AM
When he was picked up, there were doubters...with his history, his past....



I don't think there are doubters anymore.....he is one of the most amazing things anybody has ever seen.

There may be 3 truely great players of my and people in my age range's lifetime.....Josh Hamilton, A-Rod, and Ken Griffey, Jr.

Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Cal Ripken, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson....I could go on.

westofyou
06-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Cal Ripken, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson....I could go on.

No Doubt.. Hamilton?

Let's not go all Cuckoo Christensen on him just yet.