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View Full Version : Has this town turned on Dunn?



KoryMac5
06-16-2007, 12:03 PM
I have been doing a lot of reading on several different sites throughout webland. It seems to me that the majority of opinions on Dunn have changed vastly over the last several months. Some examples:


being a reds fan I am glad to see this guy thinks there are a lot of suitors for Dunn. Most reds fans are sick and tired of Adam Dunn. If you watch a game on TV or go to a game the boos' get louder and louder everytime he strikes out. I can not way till this guy it out of Cincy. People talk about his power, He plays in our friendly GABP. Shoot even Phillips and Gonzo are on pace for around 30 HR's this year for crying out loud. I can not wait until he is shipped out.



the only way we get anything for dunn is to trade him to the state of califonia..put him on a big platform and let him swing away and power the wind machines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Let's just face it. We're stuck with Dunng for the rest of the year and these idiots obviously love him so I'm sure they will give him 13 mil for next year and probably sign him to another 4 year deal. Thanks WK and the Castileni brothers, thanks alot.


swing at pitches that are that low , almost in the dirt , then strike out out looking at the picth right down the middle? very Frustrating . Personally, IMO he can leave and take his strikeouts and horrible fielding with him . GO REDS!!

Obviously these are some of the worst but not many opinions online that were really complementing him. Do you feel this Anti-Dunnism is a general consensus among Reds fans.

dougdirt
06-16-2007, 12:47 PM
Adam Dunn is a very very flawed baseball player. He has his good points (power and walks) and he has his bad points (fielding, strikeouts, getting hits). The casual fan hates him in part, at least in my opinion, to years of Marty Brennamen destroying Adam Dunn at every chance he gets. To the casual fan Marty is the be all, end all of Reds knowledge.

RedFanAlways1966
06-16-2007, 12:48 PM
Do you feel this Anti-Dunnism is a general consensus among Reds fans?

No. If the REDS were winning, then Dunn would not be such a whipping boy. The high Ks and non-gold-glove defense make him an easy target for those who like to place blame. Those people are allowed to have their opinion (it is the United States), but they should look for bigger problems... pitching, other hitters (who own a lower OPS than Dunn... there are lots of these types), pitching, the lack of a bench and pitching.

MWM
06-16-2007, 12:54 PM
Turned? They were never high enough on the guy to have to turn. He's never been appreciated by the masses. He's not Pete Rose and he's not Albert Pujols. I bet he can't wait to go somewhere else.

Edskin
06-16-2007, 12:56 PM
I think most casual fans probably feel that way about Dunn.

And then you have a group of die-hards who absolutely love the guy and seem to fail to see any real flaws in his game.

As someone "in the middle," I can tell you that my biggest disappointment has been that Dunn is seemingly incapable of improving on his weaknesses. Seems to me that he is a "good" player right now, warts and all. I've felt for the past several years that he could be a "great" player if he was able to make some minor tweaks to his approach. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened and he now appears to be stuck on "good."

"Good" is OK, but it's not untradeable.

dougdirt
06-16-2007, 12:57 PM
edskin, the line below your name makes me sad. Why would anyone ever wish they hated baseball?

Edskin
06-16-2007, 12:59 PM
Doug-

It's a jab at myself. If I hated baseball then the Reds wouldn't drive me crazy. I could have a normal, relaxing summer :)

MWM
06-16-2007, 01:31 PM
And then you have a group of die-hards who absolutely love the guy and seem to fail to see any real flaws in his game.


This is probably the most inaccurate statement that gets said more often than anything else in the history of this site. There just simply isn't any of the fan you're talking about. Even the most ardent of Adam Dunn fans realize he has plenty of faults. Yet we keeping having to read about these fans that don't exist.

pedro
06-16-2007, 01:38 PM
This is probably the most inaccurate statement that gets said more often than anything else in the history of this site. There just simply isn't any of the fan you're talking about. Even the most ardent of Adam Dunn fans realize he has plenty of faults. Yet we keeping having to read about these fans that don't exist.

It is a shame that just because one might actually appreciate what Dunn does bring to the game that it is assumed that automatically means they can't see the shortcomings in his game. He's not a good defender, he can be pitched to, and he is very streaky and yet he's been the Reds single best offensive player over the last 6 years. Personally I think there are a lot more fans that undervalue his contribution than overvalue it. Either way, I'm not convinced paying 13 million a year for Dunn would be a good idea unless he can get his OPS up in the .950 range, which doesn't appear too likely at this juncture.

Edskin
06-16-2007, 01:49 PM
Perhaps my statement was a stretch, but I have had many a discussion with people on this board who feel that Dunn is borderline untradeable.

MWM
06-16-2007, 01:55 PM
Must have been via PM.

KronoRed
06-16-2007, 01:57 PM
Turned? They were never high enough on the guy to have to turn. He's never been appreciated by the masses.
Dunn isn't the first guy to be treated like that and he won't be the last (Hi Edwin), since the BRM how many players have Cincy fans said "well he's good at this and that but he's not (incert BRM name)" as if it's normal to hold every new Reds player up to hall of famers.

Players are players, enjoy what they can do, it's the ones who can't do anything well we should be complaining about.

Edskin
06-16-2007, 02:23 PM
You know what it REALLY boils down to with Dunn?

For me, it's something I don't like to talk about because it is very presumptious and it is potentially character-damaging if enough people say it. So, generally, I try to keep my mouth shut about it unless it's an obvious case.

And let me state clearly, that this is nothing more than a gut feeling. A semi-educated guess. I have no sources, no data.

But deep down, I really do question Dunn's desire, work ethic, intensity, love of the game, etc...

I say this because I see this guy with tremendous physical skills. And I also say this because at times, he seems to command the plate. But it makes no sense to me that over the past few years, he has seemed incapable of making any marked improvements in areas that are fairly obviously in need of improvement.

I have no problem with Dunn having a high K rate. No problem at all. But why does he have to challenge MLB records year after year in that department?

I look at a guy like Hatteberg, and I see a player that almost never "gives away" an AB. He also seems to be at the max concentration level. Now, his talent presents him from reaching any sort of great levels, but I feel as if he maxes out his tank.

I'm just not sure with Dunn.

In a way, it's a compliment. I'm admitting he's already a good player and thinking deep down that he could be even better. It's possible that I just overrate his actual talent and that I should just accept him for what he is.

Dunn seems like a really cool dude. Someone I'd want to hang with. A good teammate. I bet he's really fun to be around on long road trips. But I do wonder if perhaps he isn't a bit TOO content to be "what he is" as a player?

Like I said, this is a personal observation, based soley on watching sports over the years. Nothing more. But yes, I do think it those feelings fuel my attitude towards Dunn.

westofyou
06-16-2007, 02:27 PM
Like I said, this is a personal observation, based soley on watching sports over the years.

Baseball is a game, not a sport. ;)

Players both act and display differently then they do in the back and forths.

It's the hardest game that looks easy that was ever invented.

pedro
06-16-2007, 02:28 PM
That's too bad Edskin.

Edskin
06-16-2007, 02:31 PM
WOY-- No doubt. That's why I don't claim anything I said to be fact.

But honestly, even back in little league there were players on my team that were MUCH, MUCH better than I was. They got significantly better results at 50% effort than I even dreamed of achieving at 100% effort.

Obviously, in order for Adam Dunn to accomplish what he's accomplished he has to be "trying." But yeah, I do wonder about if max effort/energy level>

Edskin
06-16-2007, 02:34 PM
That's too bad Edskin.

I don't why you say that. It's not as if 100% of MLB players push themselves to 100% effort and concentration levels at all times.

It's like any other company or situation in life.

Think about where you work. There are probably people that do quite well while putting forth less effort, yet attaining equal or better results.

It's just human nature. The human condition. I certainly don't know the answers about Adam Dunn or anyone else, but I'm pretty sure that it applies as a general theory.

pedro
06-16-2007, 02:37 PM
Obviously, in order for Adam Dunn to accomplish what he's accomplished he has to be "trying." But yeah, I do wonder about if max effort/energy level>

The way I look at it is that Adam Dunn is probably one of the 10 largest men to ever play baseball for an extended period of time. And I'm not sure any other 275 LB player has ever played as many games in the OF as Dunn has. IMO a guy that big is never going to be able to move fast enough or be co-ordinated enough to look like he's giving maximum effort level. Especially compared to a player like Freel who is buzzing around like a hummingbird.

Edskin
06-16-2007, 02:41 PM
pedro-- It's not so much his actual body language. I'm not talking about fist-pumping or throwing water jugs.

It comes down to the fact that at a very young age, Dunn had great success and had equally obvious flaws. I figured by now through study, hard work, etc...he would have improved in those areas. Again, I may very well just be overrating his potential. But that's where my opinion stems from, not his body language.

pedro
06-16-2007, 02:52 PM
pedro-- It's not so much his actual body language. I'm not talking about fist-pumping or throwing water jugs.

It comes down to the fact that at a very young age, Dunn had great success and had equally obvious flaws. I figured by now through study, hard work, etc...he would have improved in those areas. Again, I may very well just be overrating his potential. But that's where my opinion stems from, not his body language.

"Energy Level" to me suggests an observation about his play on the field, not his study or practice habits.

Spitball
06-16-2007, 03:55 PM
"Energy Level" to me suggests an observation about his play on the field, not his study or practice habits.

Except with the observable energy level we see on the field and the lack of progress in areas of weakness (fielding, making contact, etc.), we can logically assume he lacks the desire to improve his game.

WVRed
06-16-2007, 04:03 PM
Must have been via PM.

No, it was on this board, but it was in Dunn's first two years with the club. Hope OBM doesn't mind a quote from a year ago.:)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45663&page=8&highlight=Adam+Dunn+trade


On pace for over 600 career home runs, 900+ OPS(probably will be closer to .950 when his career is over), and anywhere from 1500 to 2000 career walks. I think he will be a lock for the HOF when that time comes.

BTW...

Career Batting Average

Mike Schmidt-.267
Johnny Bench-.267
Reggie Jackson-.262
Ozzie Smith-.262
Gary Carter-.262
Harmon Killebrew-.256

Harmon Killebrew may be the best comparison to Dunn. He only hit over .280 twice in his career, and never hit over .288. His career batting is only .256 while Dunn's is .249, and you have to think Dunn's will go up once he continues to mature as a hitter.

Check out his bio. Similar to Dunn. Great OBP and SLG, plenty of strikeouts and walks, homeruns, and not so great batting averages. It appears Dunn hits more doubles than Harmon did, though as Dunn will be halfway to HK's career double total by the end of this year most likely.

Mario-Rijo
06-16-2007, 04:43 PM
You know what it REALLY boils down to with Dunn?

For me, it's something I don't like to talk about because it is very presumptious and it is potentially character-damaging if enough people say it. So, generally, I try to keep my mouth shut about it unless it's an obvious case.

And let me state clearly, that this is nothing more than a gut feeling. A semi-educated guess. I have no sources, no data.

But deep down, I really do question Dunn's desire, work ethic, intensity, love of the game, etc...

I say this because I see this guy with tremendous physical skills. And I also say this because at times, he seems to command the plate. But it makes no sense to me that over the past few years, he has seemed incapable of making any marked improvements in areas that are fairly obviously in need of improvement.

I have no problem with Dunn having a high K rate. No problem at all. But why does he have to challenge MLB records year after year in that department?

I look at a guy like Hatteberg, and I see a player that almost never "gives away" an AB. He also seems to be at the max concentration level. Now, his talent presents him from reaching any sort of great levels, but I feel as if he maxes out his tank.

I'm just not sure with Dunn.

In a way, it's a compliment. I'm admitting he's already a good player and thinking deep down that he could be even better. It's possible that I just overrate his actual talent and that I should just accept him for what he is.

Dunn seems like a really cool dude. Someone I'd want to hang with. A good teammate. I bet he's really fun to be around on long road trips. But I do wonder if perhaps he isn't a bit TOO content to be "what he is" as a player?

Like I said, this is a personal observation, based soley on watching sports over the years. Nothing more. But yes, I do think it those feelings fuel my attitude towards Dunn.

I couldn't agree more that's the exact same way I feel/have felt. I am just used to watching players improve as they grow in the sport. It's not often that you find a guy who had such high production for an extended period of time (more than a yr or yr and a half) that gets visibly worse at every turn thereafter.

The players that come to mind that fit the above description are guys who seemingly are one of a few type of guys, 1.) Just playing the game because they can and are in it for the money, 2.) Guys who feel like they have made it and no longer need to work, or 3.) Guys who are too busy living the "nightlife" to overly concern themselves with more than basic involvement in their JOB.

A couple of guys who's name comes to mind.
Raul Mondesi
Juan Gonzales

Just sayin' right or wrong that's the way I see it.

pedro
06-16-2007, 05:16 PM
Except with the observable energy level we see on the field and the lack of progress in areas of weakness (fielding, making contact, etc.), we can logically assume he lacks the desire to improve his game.

oh please.

maybe he can't hit the low inside pitch b/c he's a giant human?

maybe he isn't the swiftest LF b/c he's one of the largest men to ever play out there?

the only thing that can be logically assumed here is that a bunch of people who have never met the guy are making statements they can't back up about a person they've never met.

baseball's a hard game in case you hadn't noticed. maybe he hasn't improved because he's not capable of it.

Highlifeman21
06-16-2007, 06:30 PM
Turned? They were never high enough on the guy to have to turn. He's never been appreciated by the masses. He's not Pete Rose and he's not Albert Pujols. I bet he can't wait to go somewhere else.

If I'm Adam Dunn I would love to get traded to a town where I either A) have a legitimate chance to win and see the playoffs or B) might be appreciated and respected for what I bring to the team.

When Dunn tore up the minors in 2000 and 2001, this town saddled him with Griffey as the mainstays for the offense that would pound homers and plate runs and put us into the playoffs. It's 2007, and only last year did the Reds remotely sniff any delusion of postseason grandeur.

For Adam's sake, I hope he gets traded and goes on to complete what should be a HOF career. For the Reds sake, I hope that trade comes back to haunt us as almost Ruth-esque or Robinson-esque. I hope years down the road, we're all talking about how we never should have traded Adam Dunn.

KronoRed
06-16-2007, 08:11 PM
/\ Get ready to be told you are not a real Reds fan ;)

pedro
06-16-2007, 08:23 PM
For the Reds sake, I hope that trade comes back to haunt us as almost Ruth-esque or Robinson-esque. I hope years down the road, we're all talking about how we never should have traded Adam Dunn.

why on earth would you want that?

dougdirt
06-16-2007, 08:29 PM
If I'm Adam Dunn I would love to get traded to a town where I either A) have a legitimate chance to win and see the playoffs or B) might be appreciated and respected for what I bring to the team.

When Dunn tore up the minors in 2000 and 2001, this town saddled him with Griffey as the mainstays for the offense that would pound homers and plate runs and put us into the playoffs. It's 2007, and only last year did the Reds remotely sniff any delusion of postseason grandeur.

For Adam's sake, I hope he gets traded and goes on to complete what should be a HOF career. For the Reds sake, I hope that trade comes back to haunt us as almost Ruth-esque or Robinson-esque. I hope years down the road, we're all talking about how we never should have traded Adam Dunn.

If he doesn't improve his game, no city is going to embrace him for the game he brings. There will be groups of guys everywhere that will appreciate him, but nowhere will take a liking to him so long as he still plays horrible defense, strikes out 185+ times a year, hits .250 and fails time and time again with runners on base.

I don't have a problem with Dunn, but that is all the truth.

MWM
06-16-2007, 08:35 PM
If he doesn't improve his game, no city is going to embrace him for the game he brings. There will be groups of guys everywhere that will appreciate him, but nowhere will take a liking to him so long as he still plays horrible defense, strikes out 185+ times a year, hits .250 and fails time and time again with runners on base.

I don't have a problem with Dunn, but that is all the truth.

You're probably right, but I think it all depends on expectations. When Adam came up he was supposed to become one of the elite power hitters in the game. I think most people thought he had MVP potential. That's a big part of why his lack or progression had led to such a distaste for him in Cincy. If he was in another organization that didn't need him to be "the guy" it could be different. Plus, they would know what they're getting up front. He might not be beloved, but he might not be the object of scorn like he is in Cincy.

dman
06-16-2007, 08:36 PM
This is probably the most inaccurate statement that gets said more often than anything else in the history of this site. There just simply isn't any of the fan you're talking about. Even the most ardent of Adam Dunn fans realize he has plenty of faults. Yet we keeping having to read about these fans that don't exist.

MWM, this isn't exactly true neither. I remember when this site went to the rep point system seeing several regular good posters here lose valuable rep points because they made a comment about A.D. that somebody obviously disagreed with.

I try to avoid posting about Dunn, but I'm with edskin on this issue. I'm somewhere down the middle with him. I'm the first to admit, I'm not a stat savvy (sp?) person. I see things at face value. With Dunn, I see a player who hits some monster home runs, draws an incredible amount of walks. But, 200 K's a season and only reeling in around 100 RBI's or so for 40 H.R. seasons?

To me, Dunn is a victim, as are a number of Reds players, of this team not having a real leader in the clubhouse, be it a player, manager, or coach. Not having a person to light a fire under Adam's behind has caused him to become complacent in his game.

westofyou
06-16-2007, 09:28 PM
why on earth would you want that?

Because then being right would taste like steak and eggs?

Yachtzee
06-16-2007, 09:32 PM
Personally, I feel like Adam Dunn was better when he first came up because he had such a great "eye" for the strike zone. Unfortunately, from what I could tell as an outsider, persons in the manager's office felt he shouldn't take so many walks because he wasn't driving in runs. There was a lot of pressure on Dunn to be more aggressive. I can't help but think that all those managers and hitting coaches trying to "fix" him ended up just causing him to make poor choices and strike out more. That is reason #1 why I can't stand it when I hear people talk about "being more aggressive at the plate." I'd much rather batters wait until they get a pitch they can handle or take the walk than chase something out of the zone in an attempt to hit behind the runner or get that all important sac fly.

mth123
06-16-2007, 09:44 PM
Personally, I feel like Adam Dunn was better when he first came up because he had such a great "eye" for the strike zone. Unfortunately, from what I could tell as an outsider, persons in the manager's office felt he shouldn't take so many walks because he wasn't driving in runs. There was a lot of pressure on Dunn to be more aggressive. I can't help but think that all those managers and hitting coaches trying to "fix" him ended up just causing him to make poor choices and strike out more. That is reason #1 why I can't stand it when I hear people talk about "being more aggressive at the plate." I'd much rather batters wait until they get a pitch they can handle or take the walk than chase something out of the zone in an attempt to hit behind the runner or get that all important sac fly.

Agree completely.

GAC
06-17-2007, 06:47 AM
I think most casual fans probably feel that way about Dunn.

That's the key.... the casual fan. And the majority of your fans fall into the casual fan category. And when we say "casual fan", it's not meant to infer they are ignorant or don't have a love/passion for their team. But where I work, where an overwhelming majority fall into the range - love to talk BA; but have no idea what OPS is, the value of OB%, runs allowed, runs scored, etc. - they do not hold a fair assessment of Adam Dunn. They all seem to say the same thing - K's way too much and can't hit in the clutch. Most want him traded that I have talked to.

QUESTION: did they come to that assessment on their own, via observation, or has that "belief" been promoted by people within the media?

I like Dunn; but the guy does have some flaws in his game. I don't know if he is worth the 13 Mil next year though. I've watched every game, and have been to four so far this year, and our corner OFers are defensive liabilities out there. It's almost an embarassment.

But I don't believe, as far as position in the batting order, that Narron utilizes Dunn properly. Anyone who bats Dunn 6th is an idiot IMHO.

NJReds
06-17-2007, 07:25 AM
I think the perceived backlash comes from the fact that there are many more outlets for fans to express their frustrations with a player (message boards, talk radio, etc.). Twenty years ago, this was all water cooler talk and much harder to gauge. Dunn's the lightning rod, no doubt. I can only imagine what Dave Winfield would've gone through with the Yankees in the early 80s (beyond the harsh media criticism).

The good thing about Dunn is he doesn't seem visually affected by the criticism, which most likely drives the people who are most vocal against him even more upset.

NJReds
06-17-2007, 07:28 AM
Because then being right would taste like steak and eggs?

That seems like the other extreme of those who root against Dunn (or any player) so that their postings on an anonymous message board are proven correct. At some point, it becomes less about being a fan of a team and more about the personal satisfaction that a bunch of strangers think that you're smart. Unless, of course, you were kidding.

LINEDRIVER
06-17-2007, 10:40 AM
It dawned on me a few days ago that Dunn could very well rack up 3,000 career K's, easily surpassing Reggie Jackson's all-time mark of 2,597.

Dunn currently has 1017 K's in 3072 AB's. At that rate, which is 33.1%, he would need approx 9000 AB's to hit the 3000 mark.

He is in his 7th season. 18 years of at least 500 AB's and he's got his 9000/3000. However, he might have 650-700 HR's by that time so it should be interesting to see what comes first....700 or 3000.

Matt700wlw
06-17-2007, 10:43 AM
After watching Dunn last night, I'm on my John Kerry trading Dunn bandwagon.

I can't decide from day to day if I want to trade him or not. I keep flip flopping on the issue.



When he's in a slump, it's easy to say "trade him"....when he's hot, it's tough.

Chip R
06-17-2007, 12:24 PM
The way I look at it is that Adam Dunn is probably one of the 10 largest men to ever play baseball for an extended period of time. And I'm not sure any other 275 LB player has ever played as many games in the OF as Dunn has. IMO a guy that big is never going to be able to move fast enough or be co-ordinated enough to look like he's giving maximum effort level.


I agree with pedro. Even when he's running at full speed he's not going to look like he's running hard because he's just so big. I think it was Friday night when Dunn hit a ball to the wall and stopped at 2nd instead of trying for a triple. I think I detected a few boos probably from people who thought he should have been in with a triple. Maybe Ryan Freel could have gone to 3rd on that but he probably would have been thrown out. Now maybe Dunn would have endeared himself to some fans by sliding headfirst into 3rd and getting thrown out. I prefer he remain at 2nd if he doesn't feel he can make it to 3rd. Outs bad. Baseruners good.



Personally, I feel like Adam Dunn was better when he first came up because he had such a great "eye" for the strike zone. Unfortunately, from what I could tell as an outsider, persons in the manager's office felt he shouldn't take so many walks because he wasn't driving in runs. There was a lot of pressure on Dunn to be more aggressive. I can't help but think that all those managers and hitting coaches trying to "fix" him ended up just causing him to make poor choices and strike out more.

I think this could be very true. For all of the people that complain about Dunn not improving, it seems like he has changed his approach at the plate over the several years that he has been here. Perhaps he is trying to please everybody and he ends up pleasing no one. Failure to improve on your weaknesses doesn't necessarily mean you aren't working to improve on them. We heard how he was working on improving his fielding. While he's not the Gold Glover that he has said he would like to be, I don't think he has regressed this year.



I like Dunn; but the guy does have some flaws in his game. I don't know if he is worth the 13 Mil next year though. I've watched every game, and have been to four so far this year, and our corner OFers are defensive liabilities out there. It's almost an embarassment.


Sometimes people on here act like it's a mortal sin to pay anyone in this market anythng over $10M a year. Perhaps people would be happier if everyone made no more than $4-5M a year.

In baseball there are two commodities that are highly valued. One is good starting pitching. That is why Jeff Suppan and Ted Lilly and Gil Meche and Jeff Weaver all commanded a lot of money on the free agent market this off season. None of these guys are in the class of a Roy Oswalt or a Jake Peavey or a Johann Santana. Yet because starting pitching is so highly valued, those free agents commanded quite a bit of money.

The other commodity that is highly valued is power. A-Rod isn't making $25M cause of his glove. Soriano didn't sign that huge contract with the Cubs because he was a good average hitter. Carlos Lee didn't get all that money from HOU because he is a good LFer. They are all getting their money because they can hit for power. Just like starting pitching, if everyone had it, it wouldn't be so expensive. Dunn is going to make at least $13M because he can hit 40 HRs a year and he is on the market. Now whether Krivsky decides to keep him or not is irrelevant. If he keeps him, he's going to have to pay him that kind of money. That's the price of doing business. It'd be nice if you cold have a guy like Ryan Howard making under $1M a year and still give you all that power for a below market price. But within a few years, he is going to command market value for the power he brings to the table. We can't afford Dunn? We've been paying $12M a year for Jr.s services for going on 8 years now. Since then the payroll has doubled. There's a new ballpark and more Reds games are on TV. The Reds aren't in the poorhouse by any means. They don't bring in the revenue the Yankees do but this is Cincinnati, not New York City. They may say they aren't doing all right but they are doing just fine. You don't have to pay every Tom, Dick or Harry $10 a year but you can afford paying a player or three $10M a year even in this city.

But, like any other commodity, power can be traded or sold. If there are teams out there that are willing to pay for power, the Reds should by all means look to see what they can get for a Dunn. There are some teams on the west coast that are in the hunt for the playoffs who need power. Wayne should play these teams off of each other to see who can give him the most for Dunn. The Reds are holding all the cards. He's not going to be a free agent if he stays here unless the Reds want him to be. No need for a fire sale in this case. If Wayne doesn't get an offer that brings good value back, he can just tell the other teams that the Reds are going to keep him unless the offer is sweetened. We've had him for this long, what's another year?

RANDY IN INDY
06-17-2007, 12:55 PM
Sometimes people on here act like it's a mortal sin to pay anyone in this market anythng over $10M a year.

They've been conditioned by the front office of the team for years.

Highlifeman21
06-17-2007, 04:19 PM
why on earth would you want that?

The Reds need to learn how to evaluate talent.

So far, they've shown an inept ability to do so.

pedro
06-17-2007, 04:44 PM
The Reds need to learn how to evaluate talent.

So far, they've shown an inept ability to do so.

So you want them to make a bad trade to prove a point? Great.

pedro
06-17-2007, 04:56 PM
After watching Dunn last night, I'm on my John Kerry trading Dunn bandwagon.

I can't decide from day to day if I want to trade him or not. I keep flip flopping on the issue.



When he's in a slump, it's easy to say "trade him"....when he's hot, it's tough.

Please keep your political commentary to yourself. thanks.

Highlifeman21
06-17-2007, 05:14 PM
So you want them to make a bad trade to prove a point? Great.

My point is that trading him is a bad trade. Period.

13.5 Mil seems like a bargain to me for the type of offensive production he offers.

Pay him 15 Mil a year, and lock him up til he's 32. By that time, I'm hoping this organization could get its collective act together to put a winning team together.

dman
06-17-2007, 10:32 PM
The Reds need to learn how to evaluate talent.

So far, they've shown an inept ability to do so.

Not only are they bad at evaluating talent, every manager from Bob Boone through the present have been terrible stewards of the talent we have.

guttle11
06-17-2007, 11:33 PM
My point is that trading him is a bad trade. Period.

13.5 Mil seems like a bargain to me for the type of offensive production he offers.

Pay him 15 Mil a year, and lock him up til he's 32. By that time, I'm hoping this organization could get its collective act together to put a winning team together.

Trading him is not bad if it's done right. That takes us to the "return" which is so completely obvious it doesn't need to be pointed out, and really is for another discussion.

I LOVE Dunn, but the Reds simply do not need him in order to build a contender. I'd rather them wait until next year to trade Dunn (because it's possible Bruce could be ready in 12 months), but if you get a good deal now, take it.

I don't think this team is very far off from contending in the NL Central, and not just because the division is horrible right now. They could do it next year, but the way I see it, every move they make should be done with 2009 in mind. Quite frankly, I don't think $15 million on Dunn would look so good at that time, given the amount of good young talent that should be here in Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, Encarnacion, Phillips, and Bailey. (Possibly Cueto? Maybe Stubbs in 2010?) Why not go out and get arms who can be ready at that time as well?

Dunn is as strong an offensive weapon as we've had in Cincy for a long, long time, but simply put, he's not needed. Pitching is needed, and Dunn's the best resource we have to get the arms we'll need in 2009 and beyond. Better than the draft and free agency combined.

WVPacman
06-17-2007, 11:42 PM
I would bet money that all those reds fans that booed Dunn these last few games CHEERED him when he hit those homers or knocked in a run. In other words you could call them hypicrites.:thumbdown

NJReds
06-18-2007, 04:11 PM
I heard Mets fans complaining on sports talk radio because Wright and Reyes were smiling in the dugout during last night's game (a loss to the Yankees).