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Matt700wlw
06-20-2007, 08:08 PM
Why?


"Two outs, nobody on, trying to get a right-handed hitter up there, Castro is 1-for-1 lifetime against him. If there was someone on base, I’d have given Josh a chance to whack it out of the ballpark. I’m just trying to get something going any way we can."


- Trent


He is the only one on God's green earth who thinks Juan Castro is the answer to "get something going"

Tommyjohn25
06-20-2007, 08:09 PM
I have never once chimed in on "Narron bashing" but that is ridiculous, inexcuseable, insane, and just flat out dumb.

vaticanplum
06-20-2007, 08:12 PM
1 for 1 lifetime. Well, there's all the evidence I need.

oneupper
06-20-2007, 08:13 PM
Maybe Narron can't take the losing anymore and wants to be fired.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-20-2007, 08:16 PM
Castellini must not be much of a baseball fan, because even those most causal of fans would know that Jerry Narron has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

What does it say about the GM (other than the fact that he's covering his butt) that Narron is still managing this team?

There's really no justification for retaining Jerry Narron.

Mario-Rijo
06-20-2007, 08:18 PM
I really, really like Juan Castro (the guy and the defender) and I think he needs cut. Well at least sent down to the AAA, and call up Bellhorn I hate to see a guy lose his job. But both he and Moeller are killing us just by being over there on the bench with a uniform on.

My guess is we would get better production from the kid with the uni on that fetches those pieces of wood and donuts. :angry:

Mario-Rijo
06-20-2007, 08:20 PM
Castellini must not be much of a baseball fan, because even those most causal of fans would know that Jerry Narron has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

What does it say about the GM (other than the fact that he's covering his butt) that Narron is still managing this team?

There's really no justification for retaining Jerry Narron.

No justification AT ALL at this point! None!

Danny Serafini
06-20-2007, 08:24 PM
I really, really like Juan Castro (the guy and the defender)

I'm the same way. The first time he was in town I thought he added something to the team, even with his weak bat. But now it's become blatantly obvious that he just doesn't have it anymore. It's not a big money deal, at this point they might as well eat it and see if Keppinger can handle the role.

OnBaseMachine
06-20-2007, 08:26 PM
I don't know what's worse, Narron actuallu thinking Castro is better than a little leaguer or the fact that Krivsky continues to keep him on the 25-man roster. Juan Castro stinks at everything he does on the baseball field. He's worthless.

jojo
06-20-2007, 08:29 PM
Narron just wants it to end at this point. Tommorrow is a day off. Just. Maybe.

I like JN but he's probably eyeing greener pastures.

Cyclone792
06-20-2007, 08:34 PM
Castellini must not be much of a baseball fan, because even those most causal of fans would know that Jerry Narron has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

What does it say about the GM (other than the fact that he's covering his butt) that Narron is still managing this team?

There's really no justification for retaining Jerry Narron.

The Reds were 9-21 in May, and now they're 7-11 in June. Jerry Narron has righted the ship to the tune of a 16-32 record - a .333 winning percentage - since the beginning of May.

Matt700wlw
06-20-2007, 08:34 PM
Ready...Castro vs Hamilton vs Lefties...

Castro vs LH .240 BA, .296 OBP
Hamilton vs LH .250 BA, .327 OBP

Embree vs LH batters: .286 Embree vs RH batters .253




The numbers show Hamilton is the better option....but I don't think anybody should need numbers to know that.

Mario-Rijo
06-20-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm the same way. The first time he was in town I thought he added something to the team, even with his weak bat. But now it's become blatantly obvious that he just doesn't have it anymore. It's not a big money deal, at this point they might as well eat it and see if Keppinger can handle the role.

Good point I forgot about Keppinger, my vote goes to him as well.

westofyou
06-20-2007, 08:48 PM
Castellini must not be much of a baseball fan, because even those most causal of fans would know that Jerry Narron has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.If I had a dime for every time I've heard this said about a MLB manager I'd be rich, rich I'm telling ya... bloody rich!!!

That said, Gene Mauch rears his little head every day in the Reds dugout, today it was the Castro PH. Back in 1985 The Angels had a low slugging CF named Gary Pettis, Gary could get on base though and yet it was not uncommon for Jerry Narron to PH for Pettis, Jerry Narron who had a lifetime .270 OB%, and was .67 points lower than Pettis in that 85 season.

Strikes Out Looking
06-20-2007, 08:57 PM
I'd like to see someone pinch manage for JN for the rest of my lifetime.

I believe a monkey sitting in the dugout could do just as well (or as bad) as the current incumbent manager, and having a monkey as a manager would free up a little cash to use on pitching or pinch hitters.

wheels
06-20-2007, 09:04 PM
Did this really happen?

Is this a joke that I missed somewhere?

I'm serious....I haven't read the game thread, so I'm in the dark.

Castro pinch hitting for Hamilton?

Really?

oneupper
06-20-2007, 09:05 PM
If I had a dime for every time I've heard this said about a MLB manager I'd be rich, rich I'm telling ya... bloody rich!!!

That said, Gene Mauch rears his little head every day in the Reds dugout, today it was the Castro PH. Back in 1985 The Angels had a low slugging CF named Gary Pettis, Gary could get on base though and yet it was not uncommon for Jerry Narron to PH for Pettis, Jerry Narron who had a lifetime .270 OB%, and was .67 points lower than Pettis in that 85 season.

I can't see why Narron would model himself after the manager of the biggest team choke job in baseball history.

But..."Cada Cabeza es un Mundo".

creek14
06-20-2007, 09:11 PM
I've remained fairly upbeat about this team and this season. It's baseball and I love baseball and I have life and death in my life going on right now, so wins and losses seems so trivial.

But this did me in. I am so disappointed.

Virginia Beach Reds
06-20-2007, 09:18 PM
Did this really happen?

Is this a joke that I missed somewhere?

I'm serious....I haven't read the game thread, so I'm in the dark.

Castro pinch hitting for Hamilton?

Really?


he sure did. It was a blatant blow to the grief bone with a frozen sledgehammer to every Reds fan across the county. I mean, what? Juan Castro for Hamilton? Hamilton already hit a homer and had a better chance of getting on base than defensive replacement Juan Castro. Jerry Narron is making us all look like fools for being Reds fans. What could be his reasoning for pinch hitting a defensive sub on the last out of the game, down by 2? let along hitting for Hamilton? I give up.

MrCinatit
06-20-2007, 09:30 PM
I've been sitting here for quite a while trying to think of something appropriate, trying to think of something which does not sound like an overreaction, but I am drawing a blank here.
This is what happens when managers who are not very bright attempt to over think. This is one of many, many reasons why Narron is a remarkably bad manager.

Virginia Beach Reds
06-20-2007, 09:36 PM
I've been sitting here for quite a while trying to think of something appropriate, trying to think of something which does not sound like an overreaction, but I am drawing a blank here.
This is what happens when managers who are not very bright attempt to over think. This is one of many, many reasons why Narron is a remarkably bad manager.

His only thought had to have been lefty/righty matchup. He must have ignored the splits and most importantly common sense. This was throwing in the towel. Should have just walked off the field, conceding to the A's before the 27th out. Would have been more entertaining than watching the offense fail to score minus the homerun, minimal hitting and a blowup of the pen for what seems like the 30th time this year. Then, to pinchhit a 'has been' for an 'almost is' is a disgrace. He should be canned immediately.

I think he should have been canned this weekend when he allowed Stanton to hit for himself then pulled him for another pitcher to start the next inning. BOOOOO.

westofyou
06-20-2007, 09:37 PM
I can't see why Narron would model himself after the manager of the biggest team choke job in baseball history.

But..."Cada Cabeza es un Mundo".

Same reason Whitey modeled himself on Casey, it's where they learned more about the game then anywhere else, despite the wins and losses.

SunDeck
06-20-2007, 09:38 PM
Josh isn't sick again, is he?

Not tuned in to the game or anything (stupid work!).

oneupper
06-20-2007, 09:41 PM
Same reason Whitey modeled himself on Casey, it's where they learned more about the game then anywhere else, despite the wins and losses.

Narron spent lots of time sitting next to Mauch on the Angel's bench. Mauch probably sent him to PH for Pettis just to get him off his back. :)

I'm going to pay close attention about who sits next to Narron on the REDS bench. In 10-15 years, you do NOT want that guy managing your team.

MrCinatit
06-20-2007, 09:45 PM
Narron spent lots of time sitting next to Mauch on the Angel's bench. Mauch probably sent him to PH for Pettis just to get him off his back. :)

I'm going to pay close attention about who sits next to Narron on the REDS bench. In 10-15 years, you do NOT want that guy managing your team.

Might be Castro.
And the reason for sending Juan to PH could be similar.

Danny Serafini
06-20-2007, 09:54 PM
I think he should have been canned this weekend when he allowed Stanton to hit for himself then pulled him for another pitcher to start the next inning. BOOOOO.

Stanton pulled his hamstring running that out, that's why another pitcher came in the next inning.

Gainesville Red
06-20-2007, 09:56 PM
I think I'd rather have Narron hit than Castro. Dent's pretty clutch too.

Virginia Beach Reds
06-20-2007, 09:56 PM
Stanton pulled his hamstring running that out, that's why another pitcher came in the next inning.

He has done this on at least 2 other occasions where an injury did not occur. This man needs to be relieved. Most underperforming team in baseball this year. The manager must be the sacrificial lamb for this nightmare.

Danny Serafini
06-20-2007, 09:59 PM
He has done this on at least 2 other occasions where an injury did not occur. This man needs to be relieved. Most underperforming team in baseball this year. The manager must be the sacrificial lamb for this nightmare.

Now that I think about it I do remember it happening not that long ago. Just wanted to point out the Stanton deal wasn't his fault.

edabbs44
06-20-2007, 10:13 PM
A move that doesn't make any sense on any level. But the game wasn't lost on that move.

Let's not harp on this and forget the fact that, ONCE AGAIN, Wayne's collection of misfits blew another game in the late innings. A few weeks ago, everyone was crowing about how they were desperate to see McBeth up in the majors. He was the second coming. McBeth was going to ride in to the infield on a white stallion in the 9th inning and save the city of Cincinnati from it's historically pathetic season. He now has a sweet 5.68 ERA.

Be careful of what you wish for...

Cedric
06-20-2007, 10:15 PM
A move that doesn't make any sense on any level. But the game wasn't lost on that move.

Let's not harp on this and forget the fact that, ONCE AGAIN, Wayne's collection of misfits blew another game in the late innings. A few weeks ago, everyone was crowing about how they were desperate to see McBeth up in the majors. He was the second coming. McBeth was going to ride in to the infield on a white stallion in the 9th inning and save the city of Cincinnati from it's historically pathetic season. He now has a sweet 5.68 ERA.

Be careful of what you wish for...

Let's harp on it. It's fun discussing how incredibly out of touch Jerry Narron is.

The Reds deserve this. They give the job to the lowest bidder every single time.

4256 Hits
06-20-2007, 10:20 PM
I opened up the box score and saw that Castro PH for Hamilton and first thought was "oh no Hamilton got hurt" so I looked at the bottom of the box score at the notes and there was no note about an injury. That's when I :bang: and thought Narron amazingly went to a new low and I can't see any way he should manage another game.

Virginia Beach Reds
06-20-2007, 10:22 PM
giving up by pinchhitting Juan Castro with the game within reasonable reach is what the City of Cincinnati needs. Jerry Springer, Larry Flynt and other Queen City castaways need to follow Jerry Narron's lead.

Danny Serafini
06-20-2007, 10:24 PM
A few weeks ago, everyone was crowing about how they were desperate to see McBeth up in the majors. He was the second coming. McBeth was going to ride in to the infield on a white stallion in the 9th inning and save the city of Cincinnati from it's historically pathetic season. He now has a sweet 5.68 ERA.

Be careful of what you wish for...

And coming into today it was 3.00. He got tagged for two runs that were partly his fault, but still he suffered from the guy behind him allowing inherited runs. He's still worth seeing what he's got.

Virginia Beach Reds
06-20-2007, 10:26 PM
I like McBeth even though he gave it up today. He's aggressive, throws strikes and goes after hitters. He doesn't look like a wet flower out there on the bump. he has intensity that others on this bullpen should watch and emulate.

GAC
06-20-2007, 10:29 PM
Narron just wants it to end at this point.

So he puts a Juan Castro to his head and pulls the trigger! :mooner:

CTA513
06-20-2007, 10:30 PM
A move that doesn't make any sense on any level. But the game wasn't lost on that move.

Let's not harp on this and forget the fact that, ONCE AGAIN, Wayne's collection of misfits blew another game in the late innings. A few weeks ago, everyone was crowing about how they were desperate to see McBeth up in the majors. He was the second coming. McBeth was going to ride in to the infield on a white stallion in the 9th inning and save the city of Cincinnati from it's historically pathetic season. He now has a sweet 5.68 ERA.

Be careful of what you wish for...

McBeth gave up an infield single and a bloop hit to right field, its not like he got slaughtered by the Athletics today. Ill take his performance today over what Coutlangus did in relief of McBeth.

oneupper
06-20-2007, 10:38 PM
I figured it out.

ITS JUAN CASTRO'S BIRTHDAY!

:birthday::birthday:

(not kidding it REALLY is)

Danny Serafini
06-20-2007, 10:38 PM
Coutlangus might benefit from a trip to Louisville right now. I still think he's got potential, but he made a big jump straight from AA, so it shouldn't be a surprise that he's had some struggles. There's no shame in spending a little time in AAA.

KronoRed
06-20-2007, 10:40 PM
So he puts a Juan Castro to his head and pulls the trigger! :mooner:

A deadly weapon is the last thing I would call Juan Castro ;)

LoganBuck
06-20-2007, 10:58 PM
I figured it out.

ITS JUAN CASTRO'S BIRTHDAY!

:birthday::birthday:

(not kidding it REALLY is)

I actually got upset and started yelling when this happened during the game. To find out it was some sort of birthday present for the worst hitter on the team is not tolerable.

This is the first time I write these words: Fire Narron Now, I can't take it anymore.

flyer85
06-20-2007, 11:04 PM
Juan Castro stinks at everything he does on the baseball field. He's worthless.

He is manos de oro.

CrackerJack
06-20-2007, 11:10 PM
I figured it out.

ITS JUAN CASTRO'S BIRTHDAY!

:birthday::birthday:

(not kidding it REALLY is)

Good God I would not be suprised a bit if that factored into Narron's reasoning.

Help us.

edabbs44
06-20-2007, 11:16 PM
And coming into today it was 3.00. He got tagged for two runs that were partly his fault, but still he suffered from the guy behind him allowing inherited runs. He's still worth seeing what he's got.

And, IIRC, Couter was the greatest at not letting inherited runners score a short while ago. It's just part of the master disaster that was put together. McBeth will fall to the wayside in a bit and will be back in AAA and then Wayne's new flavor of the month will be acquired somehow.

If there is one constant it is that the bullpen is horrific, no matter what order you use them in or how you use them or whatever. And that is 0% on Narron and 100% on Krivsky.

It's truly unbelievable how much rope Wayne has gotten from this crowd. The Reds are teetering on having the worst record in baseball and are currently worse than both TB and KC. This is after Krivsky was allowed to raise payroll by 15% or so.

Jerry pinch hits for a guy who has a really bad OPS vs LHP and he's an idiot. Wayne has constructed arguably the worst team in baseball and the fans want to give him more time. Go figure.

flyer85
06-20-2007, 11:19 PM
Wayne has constructed arguably the worst team in baseball and the fans want to give him more time. Go figure.bring on Depodesta.

edabbs44
06-20-2007, 11:22 PM
bring on Depodesta.

:beerme:

Big Klu
06-20-2007, 11:22 PM
If I had a dime for every time I've heard this said about a MLB manager I'd be rich, rich I'm telling ya... bloody rich!!!

That said, Gene Mauch rears his little head every day in the Reds dugout, today it was the Castro PH. Back in 1985 The Angels had a low slugging CF named Gary Pettis, Gary could get on base though and yet it was not uncommon for Jerry Narron to PH for Pettis, Jerry Narron who had a lifetime .270 OB%, and was .67 points lower than Pettis in that 85 season.

Didn't Gene Mauch also once send light-hitting INF Rob Wilfong to the plate to pinch-hit for Reggie Jackson because he wanted to try to advance a baserunner into scoring position, and he thought Wilfong would be able to bunt, or hit behind the runner? Gene, Reggie is in scoring position when he's standing at the plate! So are all the guys on base!

(FYI, Rob Wilfong hit 39 HRs in an 11-year career. Reggie Jackson had three seasons where he hit at least 39 HRs!)

jojo
06-20-2007, 11:24 PM
Didn't Gene Mauch also once send light-hitting INF Rob Wilfong to the plate to pinch-hit for Reggie Jackson because he wanted to try to advance a baserunner into scoring position, and he thought Wilfong would be able to bunt, or hit behind the runner? Gene, Reggie is in scoring position when he's standing at the plate! So are all the guys on base!

(FYI, Rob Wilfong hit 39 HRs in an 11-year career. Reggie Jackson had three seasons where he hit at least 39 HRs!)

Ya but Reggie got struck out by a girl.

OldRightHander
06-20-2007, 11:26 PM
I just got home (long day) and all the way home I just knew there was going to be a thread here about that move. My first reaction when I was listening to the game was, "Oh no, Hamilton's injured." It never occurred to me that Narron would make that move if Hamilton was still healthy. The camel's back is officially broken.

Big Klu
06-20-2007, 11:34 PM
As I mentioned on the game thread, pinch-hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton is like pinch-hitting Freddie Benavides for Paul O'Neill back in the early 90's.

guttle11
06-20-2007, 11:37 PM
I can only imagine the smile on the entire A's organization when that one was announced. The Reds punted on 4th and goal from the 25, with one second on the clock.

westofyou
06-20-2007, 11:38 PM
Didn't Gene Mauch also once send light-hitting INF Rob Wilfong to the plate to pinch-hit for Reggie Jackson because he wanted to try to advance a baserunner into scoring position, and he thought Wilfong would be able to bunt, or hit behind the runner? Gene, Reggie is in scoring position when he's standing at the plate! So are all the guys on base!

(FYI, Rob Wilfong hit 39 HRs in an 11-year career. Reggie Jackson had three seasons where he hit at least 39 HRs!)

In the same game he PH Narron too. BTW Reggie K'd in his only 3 AB's that day.


ANGELS 8TH: Downing singled; DeCinces singled [Downing to
second]; WARDLE REPLACED BUTCHER (PITCHING); WILFONG BATTED FOR
JACKSON; Wilfong forced Downing (third to shortstop) [DeCinces
to second, Wilfong to first]; LYSANDER REPLACED WARDLE
(PITCHING); Grich grounded out (third to first) [DeCinces to
third, Wilfong to second]; Jones struck out; 0 R, 2 H, 0 E, 2
LOB. Twins 3, Angels 1.


ANGELS 9TH: GAGNE REPLACED SMALLEY (PLAYING SS); Boone flied out
to center; Schofield singled; NARRON BATTED FOR PETTIS; Narron
doubled [Schofield to third]; GERBER RAN FOR NARRON; Carew
grounded out (shortstop to first) [Schofield scored]; Debut
game for Craig Gerber; Downing singled [Gerber scored];
DeCinces flied out to center; 2 R, 3 H, 0 E, 1 LOB. Twins 3,
Angels 3.

[CODE]California Angels 4, Minnesota Twins 3

Day

Game Played on Thursday, April 11, 1985 (N) at Anaheim Stadium

MIN A 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 - 3 6 0
CAL A 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 - 4 13 0

SteelSD
06-20-2007, 11:49 PM
ANGELS 9TH: GAGNE REPLACED SMALLEY (PLAYING SS); Boone flied out to center;

Yeah folks. That's Bob Boone there. Just found that amusing.

Caveat Emperor
06-20-2007, 11:54 PM
Yeah folks. That's Bob Boone there. Just found that amusing.

Also a nice reminder that everyone clamoring for Narron to be fired needs to realize: it could be much, much worse.

In fact, given this club's history of nickeling and diming on the skipper, I see no reason to believe the next guy is going to be any better. And I can't argue with that, either -- if this club has a limited number of dollars to spend, the last place I want to see them flushing cash is for a guy who never picks up a bat or throws a baseball off the mound.

redsfan4445
06-21-2007, 12:22 AM
i heard on the radio castro batting for Josh and i was like NARRON you lost your mind!! the guy hit a homer and worked a walk off a pitcher that is having a awesome year.. and CASTRO is better to bat??GESH. i said right then TIME to GET RID OF NARRON!!

Mainspark
06-21-2007, 12:29 AM
If the birthday played into the decision — surely it didn't — Jerry needs to leave immediately. Or stay on the West Coast, if he prefers.
My concern about a mid-season firing is that if the Reds bring in an interim manager of questionable ability, and the team approaches a .500-record the rest of the way, he'll be rewarded with a multi-year contract.
And the managerial cycle we've been on to some extent since Davey Johnson walked Marge's plank will play out still again... and again...

WVRedsFan
06-21-2007, 12:31 AM
Jerry pinch hits for a guy who has a really bad OPS vs LHP and he's an idiot. Wayne has constructed arguably the worst team in baseball and the fans want to give him more time. Go figure.

I've been waiting for over an hour for a rebuttal of that sentiment and so far I hear none. Oh, in another thread, a post about how it's bad to fire a manager mid-season, but that's all.


Jerry needs to go just because moves like this paint the Reds as being horribly stupid, but I expect Krivsky to endorse him, hug him, and extend him. It's Wayne's way of doing things. You kinow, Cromier, Stanton, Coffey--all those guys were extended either with either little or no justification. Why not Narron?

deltachi8
06-21-2007, 12:36 AM
So he puts a Juan Castro to his head and pulls the trigger! :mooner:

Except Castro wouldn't kill Jerry, just lighty tap him on the forehead.

I have stayed out of the Fire Narron arguments for the most part because while certainly not a good or even average manager, I felt the problems with this team were deeper than him.

However, this is just...insane. He kills fans with moves like this...and I would like to think that his own team must somehow be thinking, "Jerry, what the..."

toledodan
06-21-2007, 12:41 AM
i love the reds but moves like this may push me to start watching the indians.:help::rant2:

SteelSD
06-21-2007, 12:53 AM
Also a nice reminder that everyone clamoring for Narron to be fired needs to realize: it could be much, much worse.

Honestly, I'm not sure that the Narron hiring was, at best, a lateral move. Even though his lineups are generally craptacular, I actually like Narron's willingness to hit a guy like Hatteberg at leadoff (flashback to Casey at leadoff for Boone). I really do. But he rarely maxes out the rest of his lineup and his late-game mechanizations with the pen and offense are often mind-numbingly bad. Couple that with his propensity to ride his SP's until they bust, and I'm left with the perception that the guy sort of "gets" something, but will never "get" enough of anything to be a real benefit.

Dom Heffner
06-21-2007, 01:08 AM
i love the reds but moves like this may push me to start watching the indians.

I laughed at that until I realized I watched the entire Devil Rays series this week against the D-Backs without giving the Reds too much attention, other than Bailey's start.

NC Reds
06-21-2007, 01:24 AM
Narron and I grew up in the same town (Goldsboro, NC) so it kind of pains me to pile on, but it is past time for a change. There can be no justification for Castro pinch-hitting in that situation. The obsessive left-right-left distribution of the batting order is ridiculous as well. Who really thinks Phillips or Conine is a clean up hitter? I would stack Griffey-Dunn-Hamilton into a murderer's row instead of sticking a non-RBI producer in the clean up spot.

For my money, if Narron goes he should take Krivsky with him. Why is Juan Castro on a big league roster? Even his defense has slipped.

I really don't think this team is as bad as the record. I could actually see a plus .500 record from here on out with a different manager (and no stupid Krivsky trades).

KronoRed
06-21-2007, 02:42 AM
Also a nice reminder that everyone clamoring for Narron to be fired needs to realize: it could be much, much worse.

To me the difference between Boone and Narron is minimal at best, each over thinks every move on the field, each loves to shuffle the lineup just for fun it seems and each loves them some Juan Castro

WVRedsFan
06-21-2007, 03:03 AM
To me the difference between Boone and Narron is minimal at best, each over thinks every move on the field, each loves to shuffle the lineup just for fun it seems and each loves them some Juan Castro

Post of the month. You can always find someone worse than what we have. Finding someone good is the trick and in this case almost anyone would be much better. Every manager we get either fancies himself as Gene Mauch or someone does. Gene Mauch was a disaster. He may have been smart, but so was Jimmy Carter and we know what kind of President he was, even though I admire him. We need less intelligence and more wins.

If Krivsky leaves Narron in this job beyond the AS break, then we know all we need to know about the dandy GM who came to us from that great state of Minnesota. Comparing Bob Boone to Jerry Narron is a wash. Neither won anything and that is the telling part.

Give me a break. Please.

Ron Madden
06-21-2007, 04:41 AM
Narron should've been fired before The Club left Oakland.

Not so much because Castro K'd to end the game, But because Jerry thought it was a good idea to send Castro to the plate instead of Hamilton.

If I were Commissioner of MLB, I'd make Narron pee in a cup. Jerry must be on drugs... nobody is that dumb.

Ron Madden
06-21-2007, 04:52 AM
In the same game he PH Narron too. BTW Reggie K'd in his only 3 AB's that day.





[CODE]California Angels 4, Minnesota Twins 3

Day

Game Played on Thursday, April 11, 1985 (N) at Anaheim Stadium

MIN A 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 - 3 6 0
CAL A 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 - 4 13 0


I have always believed Gene Mauch was overrated. Kinda like "The Book" so many Managers and Fans follow and are so blinded by.

RedsBaron
06-21-2007, 06:57 AM
If you give some men a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail. If you give some Reds managers Juan Castro, suddenly every situation looks like it calls for Castro. Please take the temptation away.

sonny
06-21-2007, 07:03 AM
Castro must have some pictures of Narron.

...Its the only explanation.

puca
06-21-2007, 07:23 AM
And, IIRC, Couter was the greatest at not letting inherited runners score a short while ago. It's just part of the master disaster that was put together. McBeth will fall to the wayside in a bit and will be back in AAA and then Wayne's new flavor of the month will be acquired somehow.

If there is one constant it is that the bullpen is horrific, no matter what order you use them in or how you use them or whatever. And that is 0% on Narron and 100% on Krivsky.

The talent is lacking, and that falls squarely on Krivsky, but Jerry's usage pattern is just simply bizzare. Some of the horrific pitchers that have cycled through here have ended up having success elsewhere. I'm convinced that Jerry would have mismanaged the Nasty boys.

I wonder if Jerry is so concerned about splitting up the lefties because he has absolutely no idea how to late-game manage against it.



It's truly unbelievable how much rope Wayne has gotten from this crowd. The Reds are teetering on having the worst record in baseball and are currently worse than both TB and KC. This is after Krivsky was allowed to raise payroll by 15% or so..

Wayne is not a good general manager. He has made some good deals, but his body of work is awful. The team he put together has some serious flaws and he flailed about trying to correct them. But unless you think that talentwise this is the worst team in baseball, then there is more blame to be passed around.

Maybe I don't read enough threads, but I honestly haven't noticed many people defending Krivsky. Just because they are criticizing Narron doesn't mean they are giving Wayne a pass.




Jerry pinch hits for a guy who has a really bad OPS vs LHP and he's an idiot. Wayne has constructed arguably the worst team in baseball and the fans want to give him more time. Go figure.

Jerry is being criticized for using arguably the worst hitter in the history of baseball as a pinch hitter. And Hamilton's splits are not all that bad. He is much better against left handers than Castro is, that is for sure.

MrCinatit
06-21-2007, 07:43 AM
Ya but Reggie got struck out by a girl.

So did a representative from almost every ball club a couple of years ago - except for Sean Casey, who hit a foul ball.
Still, I would love to see Jenny Finch pitching for the Reds - for more than one reason.

cumberlandreds
06-21-2007, 08:06 AM
I worked yesterday afternoon and evening so I didn't really know how the game went. I was looking at the boxscore this morning and saw Castro Ph after Hamilton in the box. I thought there is no way Castro ph for Hamilton. But lo and behold he did. Unbelievable. This was case of ph just for the sake of it. You put your most dangerous hitter up to bat all the time. It doesn't matter if he's a lefty,righty or stands on his head when he hits. Narron is really reaching in trying to pull out wins and when a manager starts doing that it's time for a change. Although I don't think it would really help this bunch very much.

RichRed
06-21-2007, 08:22 AM
Can you imagine what Billy Beane must have thought watching that game. "They've got Juan Castro on their roster? And he actually plays? And pinch hits in crucial situations?"

Happy birthday, Juan Castro. Now get lost. You too, Narron.

RedsBaron
06-21-2007, 08:33 AM
Do you remember the old Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bus plays a baseball game against the "Gas House Gorillas"? Bugs plays all nine positions, with the announcer calling out the lineup "firstbase, Bugs Bunny; secondbase, Bugs Bunny, shortstop, Bugs Bunny..............."
Being a Reds fan is like living a version of that cartoon, only it is "pinch hitting, Juan Castro; shortstop, Juan Castro........"

Heath
06-21-2007, 08:37 AM
Castro must have some pictures of Narron.

...Its the only explanation.

ahh...memories of Jason Romano.

Heath
06-21-2007, 08:39 AM
He is manos de oro.

But his bat is made of oreos.

bucksfan2
06-21-2007, 09:37 AM
The move may have been the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Not to mention that of active players Castro is in the bottom 10 of career obp so running him out there to get on base would not make any sense. And if I remember correctly if the Hammer takes one deep then one swing of the bat ties it up. One run is better than none isn't it Jerry?

As for Castro when the trade was made last year there was a spot for Castro on this club. The reds had a very poor left side of the infield and needed a late inning guy who wan't going to make mistakes in the field. Enter Castro. The extention probably didn't need to get done but the problem with him on the bench is that you have him and Moeller who are probably amongst the worst hitters in the entire NL.

As for Krivsky and the talent I would argue that the reds have enough talent to compete in the NL Central. They just havn't maximized it. Look at some of the stats and you will see a bunch of players (Griffey, Dunn, Phillips, Hamilton, Weathers, Harang, Hatty, Conine, etc.) are not performing that bad. The problem is the bullpen and to some extent the management of the bullpen. I give Krivsky the benefit of the doubt considering he inhertied a poorly constructed club and has had one off season and one trading deadline to improve his club. I basically give him until the end of next season to judge how he is doing.

Krusty
06-21-2007, 09:40 AM
Man, stuff like this has me coveting Bob Boone.

Sea Ray
06-21-2007, 09:47 AM
No justification AT ALL at this point! None!

I'm not a Narron basher but this move is the kind you have to remember when the Reds have a Press conference announcing his firing. He brought it on himself with junk like this. The only reason for keeping him at this point is so they can clean house at the end of the year. Castellini must be working from that premise. He's waiting 'till the end of the year before doing a housecleaning. I think WK has a chance to save his job by doing good deals but I think Narron has already sunk his ship.

15fan
06-21-2007, 10:20 AM
Here's a 2007 YTD (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=OPS&minpa=0&split=0&season=2007&pos=all&hand=a&league=nl&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=false&count=273) list of NL OPS.

Juan Castro currently ranks 295th (.424).

Kyle Lohse actually has a higher OPS at .448.

Heath
06-21-2007, 10:21 AM
Lohse has a smaller sample size ;)





:bang:

Heath
06-21-2007, 10:25 AM
Here's a 2007 YTD (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=OPS&minpa=0&split=0&season=2007&pos=all&hand=a&league=nl&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=false&count=273) list of NL OPS.

Juan Castro currently ranks 295th (.424).

Kyle Lohse actually has a higher OPS at .448.

Actually if you look at the list that was linked above, only Steve Finley has more PA's (94) than Castro's 78.

*I won't mention to GM Marty Brennanman that Finley might be available.

paintmered
06-21-2007, 10:27 AM
Listening to the radio yesterday, I remember thinking to myself, "Redszone is going to have a field day with this one."

You never fail to disappoint.

Heath
06-21-2007, 10:31 AM
Listening to the radio yesterday, I remember thinking to myself, "Redszone is going to have a field day with this one."

You never fail to disappoint.


I'm sure you are beaming with pride like all proud parents do.


:D

Roy Tucker
06-21-2007, 10:53 AM
Listening to the radio yesterday, I remember thinking to myself, "Redszone is going to have a field day with this one."

You never fail to disappoint.

I was driving down Kenwood Rd. listening to WLW, heard Castro announced for Hamilton, and my car swerved a bit when I threw both arms in the air. A Blue Ash cop gave me a look. If he would have pulled me over, I'm sure he would have been understanding after I explained it to him.

Tony Cloninger
06-21-2007, 11:00 AM
What were the announcers take on this? All of them....Reds and A's.

The Reds hardly ever question anything narron does.

It's like Chaney PH for Griffey or Geronimo.

Sparky did once PH Rettenmund for Griffey...but at least Merv had a decent track record as a hitter against LHP.

BRM
06-21-2007, 11:01 AM
All I can do at this point is laugh.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 11:02 AM
What were the announcers take on this? All of them....Reds and A's.



Marty just said Castro was pinch hitting for Hamilton. No editorializing or anything. He probably thought it was a good move.

RichRed
06-21-2007, 11:11 AM
Marty just said Castro was pinch hitting for Hamilton. No editorializing or anything. He probably thought it was a good move.

He was secure in the knowledge that Juan wouldn't hit one of those "overrated" home runs.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 11:11 AM
He was secure in the knowledge that Juan wouldn't hit one of those "overrated" home runs.


You mean, "rally killer".

RichRed
06-21-2007, 11:12 AM
You mean, "rally killer".

That too, of course.

Big Klu
06-21-2007, 11:15 AM
What were the announcers take on this? All of them....Reds and A's.

The Reds hardly ever question anything narron does.

It's like Chaney PH for Griffey or Geronimo.

Sparky did once PH Rettenmund for Griffey...but at least Merv had a decent track record as a hitter against LHP.

Yeah, Merv's job was to come off the bench and hit lefties.


It's like:

Darrel Chaney pinch-hitting for Ken Griffey Sr.
Rafael Landestoy pinch-hitting for Dan Driessen.
Tom Foley pinch-hitting for Gary Redus.
Tom Runnells pinch-hitting for Kal Daniels.
Freddie Benavides pinch-hitting for Paul O'Neill.
Damian Jackson pinch-hitting for Reggie Sanders.
Gookie Dawkins pinch-hitting for Austin Kearns.

Heath
06-21-2007, 11:16 AM
Marty just said Castro was pinch hitting for Hamilton. No editorializing or anything. He probably thought it was a good move.

or at 27-44 he just doesn't care anymore.

Heath
06-21-2007, 11:17 AM
Yeah, Merv's job was to come off the bench and hit lefties.


It's like:

Darrel Chaney pinch-hitting for Ken Griffey Sr.
Rafael Landestoy pinch-hitting for Dan Driessen.
Tom Foley pinch-hitting for Gary Redus.
Tom Runnells pinch-hitting for Kal Daniels.
Freddie Benavides pinch-hitting for Paul O'Neill.
Damian Jackson pinch-hitting for Reggie Sanders.
Gookie Dawkins pinch-hitting for Austin Kearns.

Tim Hummel pinch hitting for Adam Dunn.

westofyou
06-21-2007, 11:22 AM
What were the announcers take on this? All of them....Reds and A's.

The Reds hardly ever question anything narron does.

It's like Chaney PH for Griffey or Geronimo.

Sparky did once PH Rettenmund for Griffey...but at least Merv had a decent track record as a hitter against LHP.

The A's Radio guys acted like nothing out of the ordinary.... probably because they like me, remeber Gene Mauch and tons of other stuff like this, Jerry Narron ain't insane... this game makes most people nuts.

WVRedsFan
06-21-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm not a Narron basher but this move is the kind you have to remember when the Reds have a Press conference announcing his firing. He brought it on himself with junk like this. The only reason for keeping him at this point is so they can clean house at the end of the year. Castellini must be working from that premise. He's waiting 'till the end of the year before doing a housecleaning. I think WK has a chance to save his job by doing good deals but I think Narron has already sunk his ship.
You know, I had all night to sleep on this. My guess is that's not the case at all. For some reason, Narron is the Teflon Manager (someone else said this first--I take no credit) when it comes to Castellini and Krivsky. They'll ride that "he doesn't have any bullpen" to death and excuse him. Only pressure from fans (read--attendance) will end Narron's reign in Cincinnati.

cumberlandreds
06-21-2007, 11:24 AM
Tim Hummel pinch hitting for Adam Dunn.

We can probably look forward to seeing Norris Hopper pinch hitting for Jay Bruce in 2009. :(

Tony Cloninger
06-21-2007, 11:31 AM
Nothing worse than being a clone to a guy who, while not being a bad manager (Even Mike Marshall liked him when he was in MON) ....had such unorthodox methods that if you try and emulate them...... are prone to come out looking so stupidly bad.....as this one. I guess if Mauch could PH Wilfong for Jackson...and no one questions it....then why would it be a big deal if Castro hits for Hamilton?

No guts to call him out by the announcers.......pathetic.

bucksfan2
06-21-2007, 11:32 AM
What in the world did Hamilton have to be thinking when this happened? He is 1-2 with a hr and walk and he is taken down for maybe the worst hitter in all of baseball. This has confidence builder written all over it.

Guacarock
06-21-2007, 11:37 AM
If Jerry Narron was a Hollywood casting agent, no doubt he would choose Janet Reno to understudy for Charlize Theron.

Give him the hook. Exit, stage left. Or would that be, stage right? He's got a bigger lefty-righty obsession than Claudette Colbert, who refused to let photographers shoot her right side.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 11:42 AM
or at 27-44 he just doesn't care anymore.


He certainly cared that the rookies blew the game.

BRM
06-21-2007, 11:45 AM
He certainly cared that the rookies blew the game.

Did he go off on the bullpen last night? Does he get fired up when Stanton or Maj blow a game?

flyer85
06-21-2007, 11:56 AM
What in the world did Hamilton have to be thinking when this happened? probably just thought "whatever". The real issue is what were the rest of the players thinking. I am guessing something along the lines of "our manager is a complete idiot".

The decision was beyond absurd yet this the powers that be have seemingly went into their ostrich impersonation with regard to Narron and Krivsky.

At this point canning Narron won't change a thing maybe other a few bizarre in game decisions and batting orders. Krivsky is responsible for the current mess that is the Reds bullpen, his extending of contracts ,etc.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 12:00 PM
Did he go off on the bullpen last night? Does he get fired up when Stanton or Maj blow a game?


He sure did but since it happened in the 7th, he wasn't doing play by play at the time. I have heard him go off on Stanton and Majewski before. However, I don't think he has called for Stanton's release.

RedsManRick
06-21-2007, 12:01 PM
Perhaps the most frustrating thing about baseball to me is the amount of random variation combined with the vast amount of opportunities to react to said variation inappropriately.

In my mind, the best manager is the one who can ignore the small fluctuations that aren't really "real" and can stick with the best options. I would contend that the most important job a manager has is done in the clubhouse, not the dugout. We've seen over and over managers micromanage their teams to death.

I would almost compare it to raising a kid. Lay down the ground rules, instill the values you espouse, and check in regularly to make sure they stay on the right path. But by and large, it's hands off. Despite your instinct, holding their hand every step of the way will not produce a better kid.

BRM
06-21-2007, 12:01 PM
Apparently the Reds are only a quality reliever or two away from being a contender. This gem from Jerry...



"We just need to get some big outs late in the ballgame when we need them from someone other than David Weathers. We’re very, very close to being a very good ballclub, but we’ve got to get some outs when we need them."

BRM
06-21-2007, 12:02 PM
He sure did but since it happened in the 7th, he wasn't doing play by play at the time. I have heard him go off on Stanton and Majewski before. However, I don't think he has called for Stanton's release.

Well, at least he isn't singling out the rookies then. I heard he asked for Ricky Stone to be called up last night.

Puffy
06-21-2007, 12:07 PM
Juan Castro pinch hitting for you in a two run game in the 9th inning.

Boy, if thats not a kick in the testes I don't know what is.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 12:08 PM
Well, at least he isn't singling out the rookies then. I heard he asked for Ricky Stone to be called up last night.


Yes he did. I think someone needs to remind him that all those rookies, Coffey and Majewski did extremely well in AAA too.

toledodan
06-21-2007, 12:10 PM
We can probably look forward to seeing Norris Hopper pinch hitting for Jay Bruce in 2009. :(


no they would bring castro out of retirement to do it!:D:bang::help::laugh:

BRM
06-21-2007, 12:10 PM
Yes he did. I think someone needs to remind him that all those rookies, Coffey and Majewski did extremely well in AAA too.

Yeah, but Stone had success in the majors back in 2002 and 2003. Past success, regardless of how long ago, seems to trump potential and youth.

BRM
06-21-2007, 12:12 PM
Fay agrees with Marty by the way. From his blog:



What do you do? I'd keeping switching the setup guys. Ricky Stone is tearing it up at Louisville. Calvin Medlock is lights out at Chattanooga. Bring 'em up. Could they be worse?

membengal
06-21-2007, 12:12 PM
Apparently the Reds are only a quality reliever or two away from being a contender. This gem from Jerry...

Quote:
"We just need to get some big outs late in the ballgame when we need them from someone other than David Weathers. We’re very, very close to being a very good ballclub, but we’ve got to get some outs when we need them."

Oh dear lord.

It's thinking like that, that leads to Dunn for two relievers. It really is. I am bracing myself.

Strikes Out Looking
06-21-2007, 12:13 PM
I keep checking Redszone to see if there is a sticky posted for a press conference announcing Narron's departure. I'm hoping and praying for it one of these off-days.

I was listening to XM yesterday and they had the O's interim manager on. Basically they were talking about how Perlozzo had lost the team, they weren't practicing any of the basics and the new manager said we are going back to square one--not as a punishment but to make you guys better and prepared. I think the Reds situation is very similar and a change would do them good. I wonder what the players on the bench thought when they saw Castro pinch hit for Josh Hamilton. Next, Valentin will be playing Shortstop "to get his bat into the lineup."

westofyou
06-21-2007, 12:18 PM
I would contend that the most important job a manager has is done in the clubhouse, not the dugout. We've seen over and over managers micromanage their teams to death.

I would almost compare it to raising a kid. Lay down the ground rules, instill the values you espouse, and check in regularly to make sure they stay on the right path. But by and large, it's hands off. Despite your instinct, holding their hand every step of the way will not produce a better kid.

I agree with point one, immensely.

Managing a baseball game is just part of the job, but the personality of the good clubhouse guy doesn't seem to generate the same personality of the tactician, baseball on a whole is not usually like running an NFL offense or floating and shifting lines in the NHL, it's not a by the seat of the pants endeavor, it's chess, plodding, give and take moments and the time that thought gets to meander around in brings in personal feelings, experience and doubt into each decision before it's made.

Thus often the ego of the decider overpowers logic and strangles it in the river of irrational thought.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 12:23 PM
Yeah, but Stone had success in the majors back in 2002 and 2003. Past success, regardless of how long ago, seems to trump potential and youth.

Didn't he pitch with us a few years ago or was that Rick White?

BRM
06-21-2007, 12:25 PM
Didn't he pitch with us a few years ago or was that Rick White?

Stone threw 30 2/3 innings for the Reds in 2005. 6.75 ERA and a 1.79 WHIP.

flyer85
06-21-2007, 12:26 PM
Didn't he pitch with us a few years ago or was that Rick White?it was two years ago and he was awful(30 IP 6.75 ERA). I don't think a 32 year with no stuff is likely to help.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 12:32 PM
Thanks, guys. I thought I remembered him but I get him confused with the equally craptacular Rick White.

Big Klu
06-21-2007, 12:32 PM
Exit, stage left. Or would that be, stage right?

http://www.wingnuttoons.com/snaganim.gif

Redsland
06-21-2007, 12:35 PM
You know that time when you were a kid and you dumped all of the silverware onto the kitchen floor just to see what your parents would do?

Jerry Narron pinch hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton is just like that.

deltachi8
06-21-2007, 12:37 PM
http://www.wingnuttoons.com/snaganim.gif

Heavens to Murgatroid!

Chip R
06-21-2007, 01:16 PM
You know that time when you were a kid and you dumped all of the silverware onto the kitchen floor just to see what your parents would do?

Jerry Narron pinch hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton is just like that.


Maybe he thought he'd get a contract extention if he pinch hit Castro in that situation.

KronoRed
06-21-2007, 01:25 PM
Stone threw 30 2/3 innings for the Reds in 2005. 6.75 ERA and a 1.79 WHIP.

Now that's what we need around here.

Caveat Emperor
06-21-2007, 02:12 PM
To me the difference between Boone and Narron is minimal at best, each over thinks every move on the field, each loves to shuffle the lineup just for fun it seems and each loves them some Juan Castro

I admit I don't follow other teams closely enough to notice, but I rarely see a team trot the same lineup or batting order out two nights in a row in a series AGAINST the Reds.

I think lineup construction is a tired argument. Its not like RBI Baseball -- the team doesn't have the same batting order every time you put the cartridge in.

RichRed
06-21-2007, 02:25 PM
You know that time when you were a kid and you dumped all of the silverware onto the kitchen floor just to see what your parents would do?

Jerry Narron pinch hitting Juan Castro for Josh Hamilton is just like that.

In that case, I hope Castellini ("Dad") has gone to get his belt.

westofyou
06-21-2007, 02:30 PM
I admit I don't follow other teams closely enough to notice, but I rarely see a team trot the same lineup or batting order out two nights in a row in a series AGAINST the Reds.

I think lineup construction is a tired argument. Its not like RBI Baseball -- the team doesn't have the same batting order every time you put the cartridge in.

Reds used 140 lineups last year, tops in the NL, second in MLB, behind Tampa. For his career Jerry averages 128 per season. Bochy - 119, Felipe Alou 129, Baker 117, Cox - 91, Garner 117, LaRussa - 131, Hargrove, 106.

Bob Boone?

145.

NL ball with players like Freel and Aurilia pretty much dictates various orders over the season, add in injuries and the Gen Mauch way and you have guys clicking 140 different lineups a season... Just like I do in Strat... with numbers and all that, can't imagine what happens when real life starts to intrude on the process.

westofyou
06-21-2007, 05:18 PM
BTW: Here's a few other tidbits to feed this story.

Leo Durocher to Gene Mauch when asked why he put on the H&R instead of a bunt


Kid, people talk about percentages, I got my own percentages

Later on in his career Mauch said:


When the game begins you throw away the book and you make your decisions according to the situation, but there's no cut and dried strategy. It varies from game to game, situation to situation.

As for Hamilton being embarrassed, Bobby Veach PH for Babe Ruth in 1925, later that week Huggins PH for Gehrig. In Stan Musial's rookie year he was PH for several times.

MrCinatit
06-21-2007, 07:40 PM
Wasn't there an instance last year where Edwin was yanked for a "scrappy vet" - I am thinking either Womack or Castro, but I could be off base here.
However, I do remember seeing his totally dejected look after the Reds lost - and his replacement failed to produce in a key situation.

:lastyear:

westofyou
06-22-2007, 12:10 AM
http://baseballminutia.com/images/jn.gif

http://baseballminutia.com/images/jn2.gif

http://baseballminutia.com/images/skoal.gif

GAC
06-22-2007, 10:05 AM
bring on Depodesta.

No thanks.

Just because a guy is excellent at looking up statistical data and researching ballplayers doesn't mean he'd make a good GM. There's much more to the job, and he found that out in LA (in over his head IMO). Much more suited as a GM advisor/consultant IMO (like James).

smith288
06-22-2007, 10:08 AM
No thanks. IMHO, he's not GM material. In over his head in LA. Much more sutied as a GM advisor/consultant IMO.
Like Krivsky is apparently showing himself to be as well...

MartyFan
06-22-2007, 10:36 AM
Wasn't Hamilton reported to be feeling dizzy? I thought I read someplace where he was pulled from the game because he was dizzy?

flyer85
06-22-2007, 10:37 AM
Wasn't Hamilton reported to be feeling dizzy? I thought I read someplace where he was pulled from the game because he was dizzy?supposedly he passed out after Jerry told him Castro was PHing for him. :D

Marc D
06-22-2007, 10:45 AM
I don't see as many Narron supporters as there once were. He used to get a lot of the "lets give him more time" excuse as well. His fundamental incompetence has finally shown through to the point no one can honestly support the guy.

WK will turn out the same, 6 weeks untill the trade deadline to leave no doubt. He is the one responsible for JN being here, The Trade and the pen.

The new owner thinks both of these guys are part of the answer.

The more things change the more they stay the same with the Reds. The unable being led by the unknowing.

GAC
06-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Like Krivsky is apparently showing himself to be as well...

Not going to argue with you there smitty (though I think he needs more time); but I simply do not think Depo is GM material as far as his personality, lack of intereaction/communication skills with ballplayers. One of the "knocks" against him while at LA was that he basically ignored, or deemed it insignificant, when it came to assembling that team, various individual personalities, conflicts, and history of some of the players (troublemakers) he signed.

And there was also the accusations of him being aloof and very impersonable (i.e. not a people person). Now some may say those traits are insignificant when it comes to being a GM; but I would disagree.

Heath
06-22-2007, 12:01 PM
supposedly he passed out after Jerry told him Castro was PHing for him. :D

That might be the funniest thing you have said.

Puffy
06-22-2007, 12:05 PM
Not going to argue with you there smitty (though I think he needs more time); but I simply do not think Depo is GM material as far as his personality, lack of intereaction/communication skills with ballplayers. One of the "knocks" against him while at LA was that he basically ignored, or deemed it insignificant, when it came to assembling that team, various individual personalities, conflicts, and history of some of the players (troublemakers) he signed.

And there was also the accusations of him being aloof and very impersonable (i.e. not a people person). Now some may say those traits are insignificant when it comes to being a GM; but I would disagree.

Good point. A lot of the exact same things were said about this guy named Belicheck after his failed coaching stint in Cleveland. Lack of personality, interaction/communication skills with players, aloof, ignored what others thought was important.

The next team who hired that schmuck is still paying for it......

Redsland
06-22-2007, 12:12 PM
Wasn't Hamilton reported to be feeling dizzy? I thought I read someplace where he was pulled from the game because he was dizzy?
That happened on June 14th, when Hamilton came out of the game in the fifth inning. There have been no reports of dizziness since then.

dabvu2498
06-22-2007, 12:20 PM
Good point. A lot of the exact same things were said about this guy named Belicheck after his failed coaching stint in Cleveland. Lack of personality, interaction/communication skills with players, aloof, ignored what others thought was important.

The next team who hired that schmuck is still paying for it......

Maybe a decent comparison. Thing is if you're like that, allegedly, you can get away with some of it if you have great people working for you.

Belichick's "coaching tree":


As of February 14, 2007, seven members of Belichick's "coaching tree" were head coaches of either other NFL teams or NCAA Division I football programs:

Romeo Crennel for the Cleveland Browns
Eric Mangini for the New York Jets
Nick Saban at the University of Alabama
Charlie Weis at the University of Notre Dame
Kirk Ferentz at the University of Iowa
Al Groh at the University of Virginia
Pat Hill at Fresno State University

In addition, eight former Belichick assistants now serve as coordinators, assistant head coaches, or executives for teams around the league:

Josh McDaniels offensive coordinator for the New England Patriots
Dean Pees defensive coordinator for the Patriots
Scott Pioli Vice President of Player Personnel for the Patriots
Phil Savage General Manager for the Cleveland Browns
Rob Ryan defensive coordinator for the Oakland Raiders
Jim Schwartz defensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans
Jim Bates assistant head coach of the Denver Broncos
Jeff Davidson offensive coordinator of the Carolina Panthers

Belichick has been known to cultivate ties with the collegiate branches of his coaching tree: in the 2005 NFL Draft, the Patriots drafted two players from Fresno State, while in the 2006 NFL Draft, the Patriots drafted one Notre Dame player, and then signed two more as free agents after the draft.

In addition, Belichick is a devoted student of the game; during the offseason, he has spent significant amounts of time visiting with other programs to learn from their experiences. For example, he has studied the Navy run offense, and spent time with Jimmy Johnson to learn about drafting and contract negotiations. Similarly, in recent years, he has paid several visits to University of Florida head coach Urban Meyer. Meyer considers himself a protégé of Belichick and has tried to emulate Belichick's success at New England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick

Somehow I doubt that DePodesta's "networking" skills within the game of baseball would allow him to collect a staff of guys like Belichick was able to do.

GAC
06-23-2007, 09:30 AM
Good point. A lot of the exact same things were said about this guy named Belicheck after his failed coaching stint in Cleveland. Lack of personality, interaction/communication skills with players, aloof, ignored what others thought was important.

The next team who hired that schmuck is still paying for it......

I don't know if that's the best comparison/analogy though. I agree that Bill was lacking in interaction skills; but that was mainly due to him being a somewhat withdrawn/not public personality. But he knew how to communicate to his players when he had to, and get them to play at their highest level. And he didn't tolerate troublemakers for the most part.

But being a Browns fan, I'd be the first to tell you that the Browns ****** up! :mooner:

And I will also add that there was possibly an anti-Moneyball media in LA.

Here's an interesting article on Depo's Reign: Statistical Analysis Of All His Trades...

http://danjulien.atspace.com/depo.htm