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BRM
06-21-2007, 03:21 PM
OAKLAND -- The Oakland Athletics announced today the club has designated outfielder Milton Bradley for assignment and has selected infielder Kevin Melillo from Triple-A Sacramento.

Bradley is batting .292 with two home runs and seven RBI in 19 games this season. He had three stints on the disabled list due to various injuries. He was most recently placed on the 15-day disabled list retroactive to June 3 with a strained right calf and was activated for Wednesday's game against Cincinnati. Bradley had five stints on the DL in his two seasons with the A's. He missed 51 games due to injury this season, 59 last year, 85 in 2005 and 61 in 2003.

Originally selected in the fifth round of the 2004 First-Year Player Draft, the 25-year old Melillo was batting .267 with 21 doubles, six triples, seven home runs and 40 RBI in 67 games for Sacramento this season, seeing all of his action at second base. He also had a .465 slugging percentage and a .368 on-base percentage.


LINK (http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20070621&content_id=2040781&vkey=pr_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak)

flyer85
06-21-2007, 03:26 PM
could he help the Reds? Maybe but at this point it wouldn't matter.

No reason to consider bringing him in, especially with his track record of being hurt.

MartyFan
06-21-2007, 03:29 PM
WASHINGTON NATIONALS Say hello to your newest OF

BRM
06-21-2007, 03:30 PM
Wouldn't surprise me to see the Cardinals grab him.

red-in-la
06-21-2007, 03:31 PM
If you were to trade Dunn today, Bradley would be a better than average replacement. :help:

flyer85
06-21-2007, 03:33 PM
If you were to trade Dunn today, Bradley would be a better than average replacement. :help: ... only if you can get him on the field. :D

traderumor
06-21-2007, 03:34 PM
I don't think Bradley's attitude issues would do real well on a team on the road to nowhere in the current season.

Yachtzee
06-21-2007, 03:34 PM
could he help the Reds? Maybe but at this point it wouldn't matter.

No reason to consider bringing him in, especially with his track record of being hurt.

I'd rather have the Parker Bros. myself. :)

flyer85
06-21-2007, 03:36 PM
I'd rather have the Parker Bros. myself. :)thought you would lean more toward Hasbro. :p:

smith288
06-21-2007, 03:37 PM
Milton completely trashed the clubhouse after he struck out in his last at bat (after they won). This coupled with his inibility to stay on the field, probably led to his demise...

No. We should not go after Guillen redux.

vaticanplum
06-21-2007, 03:38 PM
I misread this as the Reds DFAing Milton and felt my heart go a-twitter. It doesn't matter at this point (and probably can't even happen), but it would be a moral victory.

Chip R
06-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Milton completely trashed the clubhouse after he struck out in his last at bat (after they won). This coupled with his inibility to stay on the field, probably led to his demise...



But he has that fire everyone says this team lacks. ;)

flyer85
06-21-2007, 03:47 PM
I misread this as the Reds DFAing Milton and felt my heart go a-twitter. They DFSed him.

red-in-la
06-21-2007, 03:47 PM
thought you would lean more toward Hasbro. :p:

I believe Hasbro owns Parker Bros.

Roy Tucker
06-21-2007, 03:48 PM
Jose Guillen part deux

BRM
06-21-2007, 03:49 PM
Jose Guillen part deux

Guillen hit pretty well with the Reds...

flyer85
06-21-2007, 03:55 PM
Jose Guillen part deuxI wonder if Milton whizzed on the managers desk?

westofyou
06-21-2007, 04:14 PM
Milton Bradley's career in Oakland -- a fairly tranquil time, compared with some his more contentious stops in Cleveland and Los Angeles -- has ended, and unexpectedly early.

The A's designated the outfielder for assignment on Thursday morning, a day after general manager Billy Beane met with Bradley to let him know that the transaction was coming. Bradley left the clubhouse upset, and he also had expressed dissatisfaction on Tuesday after not being activated when he felt he was ready to return from a calf injury.

There was a good chance of more discontent in the future, with an increasingly crowded outfield in the offing. Chris Snelling is likely coming off the disabled list soon and he is out of options, while Bobby Kielty is also expected to be available by the end of the month. Bradley, who will be a free agent after this season, would have seen a decrease in playing time, according to a source, largely because most of the rest of the outfielders are part of the team's future, while Bradley was not.

"He wasn't going to be happy playing a couple of times a week," a team source said.

The A's have 10 days in which to trade Bradley, waive him or release him. A trade remains a possibility, although by designating him, the team has signaled its intention to part with him, which usually lessens a player's value. Once a player has been designated, interested teams often just wait to see if he is placed on waivers or wait until he is released, but if multiple clubs are after Bradley, the A's might be able to move him within the 10-day span.

Oakland activated Bradley on Wednesday after he'd missed more than two months with first a hamstring strain and then a calf strain. In a year and a half with the A's, Bradley had five stints on the DL and missed 110 games.

Bradley went 0-for-3 with a walk on Wednesday and struck out looking in his final at-bat. He disagreed with the call and exchanged words with home-plate umpire Tim Timmons, prompting manager Bob Geren to come out of the dugout.

Bradley, 29, hit .292 with two homers and seven RBIs in 19 games this year, and last year, he hit .276 with 14 homers and 52 RBIs in 96 games. His best stretch with the team came during last year's American League Championship Series, when Bradley was 9-for-18 with two homers as the A's were swept by Detroit.

Though he had some on-field incidents with the Dodgers and a difficult relationship with manager Eric Wedge in Cleveland, Bradley had few troubles in Oakland apart with some give-and-take with the crowd at Fenway Park in a series at Boston last year. Several sources said that Bradley injured his shoulder last year while having a tirade in the clubhouse, but Bradley emphatically denied that.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/21/SPGA3QJD872.DTL

M2
06-21-2007, 04:32 PM
We should not go after Guillen redux.

Could he fetch Aaron Harang redux?

smith288
06-21-2007, 05:23 PM
Could he fetch Aaron Harang redux?
Not likely when the Guillen redux has done near nothing this year and has thrown a monster tantrum in the A's clubhouse. Im not sure what type of return that would fetch us this year.

Roy Tucker
06-21-2007, 05:58 PM
Not likely when the Guillen redux has done near nothing this year and has thrown a monster tantrum in the A's clubhouse. Im not sure what type of return that would fetch us this year.

It would be a bit of a dicey move, but I could see the Reds doing it.

If I recall correctly, the Reds signed Guillen off the trash heap after he'd been released by several teams. His stock couldn't have been any lower. Something clicked with him in Cinci, the Reds gave him some PT and shined him all up, and then flipped him to the A's.

It would be a gamble given Bradley's track record, but the Reds have to take some chances to acquire true talent.

flyer85
06-21-2007, 06:15 PM
I don't see Bradley having a place to play. Supposedly his tirade was due to his being left on the DL two days longer than he wanted. I doubt there is an interest in playing in Cincy unless he is going to play everyday.

KronoRed
06-21-2007, 06:39 PM
I want nothing to do with this guy, I'd rather see Votto out in left

BuckeyeRedleg
06-21-2007, 06:43 PM
His offensive numbers and the fact that he's a RH hitting OF make him very similar to Austin Kearns.

Austin Kearns with an attitude.

I'm not sure how is defense stacks up, but his numbers are almost identical. He's just two years older and as I said, with much more attitude than AK.

I say, what do they have to lose? Low risk, mid to high reward. Shine him up and flip him.

M2
06-21-2007, 06:53 PM
If Bradley doesn't end up in DC, I'll be stunned.

Johnny Footstool
06-21-2007, 07:04 PM
His offensive numbers and the fact that he's a RH hitting OF make him very similar to Austin Kearns.

Austin Kearns with an attitude.

I'm not sure how is defense stacks up, but his numbers are almost identical. He's just two years older and as I said, with much more attitude than AK.

I say, what do they have to lose? Low risk, mid to high reward. Shine him up and flip him.

I thought Kearns already had an attitude.

Bradley's "attitude" leans more towards the sociopathic. That said, he's a good hitter, good fielder, and has decent speed. If he can stay even remotely healthy, he'll be a contributor to any team.

PuffyPig
06-21-2007, 07:10 PM
If Dunn is traded Bradley is just the type of player we should get.

Why would he come here? So he can inflate his stats at GABP and ride into the sunset with a big FA contract with some other sucker.

He could be another Guillen, except he's had way more actual success than Guillen had when we got him.

MrCinatit
06-21-2007, 07:14 PM
There is fire, then there is Billy Martin-esque insane.
Bradley is leaning more towards that second part. Pass.

Mario-Rijo
06-21-2007, 09:58 PM
I'm torn on this one, I like his game somewhat but he is a crazy man!

Highlifeman21
06-21-2007, 10:00 PM
Why not pick up Milton Bradley if it costs us next to nothing?

I wish he were the PTBNL in the Denorfia deal.

Then we could have flipped him for a warm body.



I just have a feeling that whoever deals with B. Beane for Bradley will probably end up on the short end of the stick.


Like us, when we gave them Denorfia.

Ltlabner
06-21-2007, 10:05 PM
I just have a feeling that whoever deals with B. Beane for Bradley will probably end up on the short end of the stick.


Like us, when we gave them Denorfia.

Funny, I thought we got a semi-tallented young arm (something folks are always clammoring for) and a more long-shot AA arm in return for a 4th outfielder that woln't make a single at bat for this year? Oh yea, we got some cash in the deal too.

How on earth is that "giving away" the great Deno?

pedro
06-21-2007, 10:08 PM
How on earth is that "giving away" the great Deno?

Krivsky did it. Therefore it is bad. And it if it does happen to work out he was just lucky because well .. you know.

Virginia Beach Reds
06-21-2007, 11:30 PM
Funny, I thought we got a semi-tallented young arm (something folks are always clammoring for) and a more long-shot AA arm in return for a 4th outfielder that woln't make a single at bat for this year? Oh yea, we got some cash in the deal too.

How on earth is that "giving away" the great Deno?

I agree. Marcus will be a usable pitcher in the pen. Chris Denorfia's grow on trees for the Reds. Just pick another.

Tony Cloninger
06-22-2007, 01:27 AM
I am ..more and more...growing tired of WK also...but give me a break on the giving away Deno thing. Can we blame him for the Andujar and Montgomery trades too?

Heath
06-22-2007, 02:22 AM
I am ..more and more...growing tired of WK also...but give me a break on the giving away Deno thing. Can we blame him for the Andujar and Montgomery trades too?

I figure at some point that the trade for Roberto Kelly was really Wayne K.

:rolleyes:

KronoRed
06-22-2007, 02:24 AM
I agree. Marcus will be a usable pitcher in the pen. Chris Denorfia's grow on trees for the Reds. Just pick another.
I wish, we could use a few right now.

Highlifeman21
06-22-2007, 09:06 AM
Funny, I thought we got a semi-tallented young arm (something folks are always clammoring for) and a more long-shot AA arm in return for a 4th outfielder that woln't make a single at bat for this year? Oh yea, we got some cash in the deal too.

How on earth is that "giving away" the great Deno?

A healthy Denorfia will start for the A's next year.

IMO, the A's have better OF depth than we do, as evident with the DFA of Mr. Bradley.

Therefore, if Denorfia will start for the A's, a team with better OF depth than the Reds, he's not a 4th OF.

But then again, neither is Norris Hopper.



He's more like a 6th or 7th.

VR
06-22-2007, 09:36 AM
Don't want the guy...but don't the Reds get first dibbs on any waiver transactions?
It does pay to have the worst record in biesbol. :laugh:

Ltlabner
06-22-2007, 09:52 AM
A healthy Denorfia will start for the A's next year.

So that Deno * might * start for them next year proves we gave him away how?

Still fuzzy on how getting two arms and cash back for a guy who woln't take a single at-bat this year, and doesn't figure into the Reds plans in the OF (right or wrong) is "giving him away".

Chip R
06-22-2007, 10:13 AM
I guess I'm a little confused as to why the Reds would want him. Have they instituted a new rule that allows for a 4th OFer?

Benihana
06-22-2007, 10:24 AM
A healthy Denorfia will start for the A's next year.

IMO, the A's have better OF depth than we do, as evident with the DFA of Mr. Bradley.

Therefore, if Denorfia will start for the A's, a team with better OF depth than the Reds, he's not a 4th OF.

But then again, neither is Norris Hopper.



He's more like a 6th or 7th.


Um, exactly how does anything prove they have more outfield depth than we do? I think KGJ, Hamilton, and Dunn would all start over any of their guys, maybe Swisher notwithstanding. Not to mention Bruce and possibly even Votto coming out of the minor leagues, your logic does not hold up AT ALL.

To understand Highlifeman, you must also understand that he is still very upset that Ben Broussard is not the Reds' starting 1B. I think that's all that needs to be said. Chris Denorfia is a fringe major league outfielder. That's all.

I liked the trade then and I like it now.

bucksfan2
06-22-2007, 10:37 AM
If you ask me the A's have a horiable outfield. They offense is awful and any 3 of the reds outfielders would be one of their best run producers. Without Swisher their outfield doesn't have much punch at all.

smith288
06-22-2007, 10:50 AM
Deno = Brady Clark

Within the next 3 yrs or so, Deno will be DFAd.

westofyou
06-22-2007, 11:15 AM
A healthy Denorfia will start for the A's next year.
IMO, the A's have better OF depth than we do, as evident with the DFA of Mr. Bradley.

Therefore, if Denorfia will start for the A's, a team with better OF depth than the Reds, he's not a 4th OF.

But then again, neither is Norris Hopper.

He's more like a 6th or 7th.


I love the notion that we got rid of Bradley because we just had too many outfielders. Let's see, too many fielders like Jack Cust? Or too many guys who can hit left-handed like Bobby Kielty? Or too many power hitters like Shannon Stewart? Oh, don't forget Chris Snelling--the one guy who can actually get injured more regularly than Bradley.

Bradley may have been a zero-tool player when injured, but he was a five-tool player on the rare occasions when he did play. And I don't see the A's overstocked on five-tool players.

C'mon, Billy--come up with something we can believe. Like you want your outfielders to have more at-bats than tantrums in an average month. Fair enough.

http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2007/6/22/01412/1611

westofyou
06-22-2007, 12:39 PM
http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18506374&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478568&rfi=6


The Pittsburgh Pirates have strong interest in trading for controversial outfielder Milton Bradley, who was designated for assignment by Oakland on Thursday.

Highlifeman21
06-24-2007, 07:12 PM
I guess I'm a little confused as to why the Reds would want him. Have they instituted a new rule that allows for a 4th OFer?

I'm not sure Bradley could play CF, but Bradley would be a better option in the OF than Freel. Dunn is the constant in LF, Hamilton would be the everyday in CF, which leaves Griffey and Bradley in RF.

I really look at it as an upgrade over Ryan Freel. And an insurance policy for Griffey.

Highlifeman21
06-24-2007, 07:20 PM
Um, exactly how does anything prove they have more outfield depth than we do? I think KGJ, Hamilton, and Dunn would all start over any of their guys, maybe Swisher notwithstanding. Not to mention Bruce and possibly even Votto coming out of the minor leagues, your logic does not hold up AT ALL.

To understand Highlifeman, you must also understand that he is still very upset that Ben Broussard is not the Reds' starting 1B. I think that's all that needs to be said. Chris Denorfia is a fringe major league outfielder. That's all.

I liked the trade then and I like it now.

Obviously the A's feel they have OF depth to spare if they can jettison Milton Bradley.

As for Ben Broussard, I'm over that. I'm over picking Brandon Larson over Russell Branyan as well.

The Denorfia move still stings b/c it signifies a problem with the Reds' ability to judge/evaluate talent.

You don't at all find it curious as to why the A's would obtain a player out for the year?

As for Chris Denorfia being a fringe major leaguer, we'll have to agree to disagree at that assessment.

But I do appreciate the cheap, personal attack in your post. Thanks.

Benihana
06-25-2007, 11:28 AM
Obviously the A's feel they have OF depth to spare if they can jettison Milton Bradley.

As for Ben Broussard, I'm over that. I'm over picking Brandon Larson over Russell Branyan as well.

The Denorfia move still stings b/c it signifies a problem with the Reds' ability to judge/evaluate talent.

You don't at all find it curious as to why the A's would obtain a player out for the year?

As for Chris Denorfia being a fringe major leaguer, we'll have to agree to disagree at that assessment.

But I do appreciate the cheap, personal attack in your post. Thanks.

Its not a cheap, personal attack. I'm simply noting that in my opinion, you tend to overvalue these overperformers at the minor league level, ignoring the production level they've put up at the major league level. The truth of the matter is that Denorfia is turning 27 in two weeks, he will be almost 28 before he even gets a chance to contribute at the major league level, something he has yet to do. Not to mention, the Reds biggest strength is their outfield depth, and clearly their biggest weakness is pitching in general, and their bullpen specifically. The emergence of Josh Hamilton and the extension of Freel made Denorfia completely expendable. That's all I'm saying.

Chip R
06-25-2007, 12:10 PM
I'm not sure Bradley could play CF, but Bradley would be a better option in the OF than Freel. Dunn is the constant in LF, Hamilton would be the everyday in CF, which leaves Griffey and Bradley in RF.

I really look at it as an upgrade over Ryan Freel. And an insurance policy for Griffey.

Platooning Bradley and Jr.?

traderumor
06-25-2007, 12:15 PM
As for Ben Broussard, I'm over that. I'm over picking Brandon Larson over Russell Branyan as well.Replacement level will tend to do that. Looks like Denorfia might fit that mold as well.

westofyou
06-25-2007, 12:23 PM
Replacement level will tend to do that. Looks like Denorfia might fit that mold as well.

Yesterday I was sitting right above the Reds Bull Pen when McBeth was warming up, the sound that his throws made in the catchers glove was good enough for me to get over Chris DeNorfia.

DeNorfia gets more love then Jeff Jones, Mike Frank, Pat Watkins and Champ Summers on a good day, it's really quite phenomenal for a guy that has 144 MLB AB's, no pop and is out for his age 27 year.

Why it's Brady Clarkesque.

Big Klu
06-25-2007, 02:02 PM
Yesterday I was sitting right above the Reds Bull Pen when McBeth was warming up, the sound that his throws made in the catchers glove was good enough for me to get over Chris DeNorfia.

DeNorfia gets more love then Jeff Jones, Mike Frank, Pat Watkins and Champ Summers on a good day, it's really quite phenomenal for a guy that has 144 MLB AB's, no pop and is out for his age 27 year.

Why it's Brady Clarkesque.

You forgot Steve Gibralter.

Cyclone792
06-25-2007, 02:19 PM
Its not a cheap, personal attack. I'm simply noting that in my opinion, you tend to overvalue these overperformers at the minor league level, ignoring the production level they've put up at the major league level. The truth of the matter is that Denorfia is turning 27 in two weeks, he will be almost 28 before he even gets a chance to contribute at the major league level, something he has yet to do.

Performance at the minor league level is important, because oftentimes good performance at the minor league level (especially with regards to walks and plate discipline) translates to performance at the major league level. Anytime a high caliber defensive center fielder has career minor league numbers of .296/.377/.441/.818, I'm interested. Especially when that same guy strung together two straight seasons in AAA with a near .900 OPS. That's the type of cheap production a team like the Athletics is willing to take a chance on.

How about the Reds? Chris Denorfia never got much of a chance to contribute at the major league level because the Reds just flat out never gave him the chance. Though what's interesting is what playing he did get, he still put up a .278/.358/.382/.740 line. What's the average center fielder's line this season? .264/.326/.406/.732. Looks to me like Denorfia's rate of production is on par with the league average center fielder. Toss in well above average defense, and that's a quality big league player. Who wouldn't want that for a league minimum salary?

Also, while simultaneously stashing Denorfia away on the bench or in Louisville last season in 2006, the Reds draft another center fielder with a reputation of solid defense with their first round draft pick. That's the same college hitter who will be 23-years-old in less than four months and is impressing Dragons fans down in Low-A with a .706 OPS. This comes after impressing fans up in Billings with a .768 OPS in the Pioneer League.

So yea, the Reds drafted a player who looks to be a poor man's version of Chris Denorfia while simultaneously crapping on the original version of Chris Denorfia.

As for the Denorfia trade, I'm rather indifferent on it, partially because McBeth's playing this season while Denorfia isn't. But if you don't believe Chris Denorfia has any value to a big league club, then I can't wait to see your opinion of one Drew Stubbs.

lollipopcurve
06-25-2007, 02:47 PM
So yea, the Reds drafted a player who looks to be a poor man's version of Chris Denorfia while simultaneously crapping on the original version of Chris Denorfia.
Drafted as a college senior, developed (including a stint in the AFL), put on the 40-man roster, promoted to the major leagues and given 150+ ABs.... how is this crapping on a player?

Cyclone792
06-25-2007, 02:58 PM
Drafted as a college senior, developed (including a stint in the AFL), put on the 40-man roster, promoted to the major leagues and given 150+ ABs.... how is this crapping on a player?

How quickly was Denorfia discarded after Kearns was traded away? One week or so? He wasn't able to even get back in the lineup after that until the last two weeks of the regular season altogether. And yet this was a guy who should have been given a realistic chance to start regularly in center field in spring training of last year.

I'm glad the Reds got what looks to be a decent big league reliever in return, but Denorfia's skill set is one that he deserved a much bigger look than he ever got.

Benihana
06-25-2007, 03:03 PM
Performance at the minor league level is important, because oftentimes good performance at the minor league level (especially with regards to walks and plate discipline) translates to performance at the major league level. Anytime a high caliber defensive center fielder has career minor league numbers of .296/.377/.441/.818, I'm interested. Especially when that same guy strung together two straight seasons in AAA with a near .900 OPS. That's the type of cheap production a team like the Athletics is willing to take a chance on.

How about the Reds? Chris Denorfia never got much of a chance to contribute at the major league level because the Reds just flat out never gave him the chance. Though what's interesting is what playing he did get, he still put up a .278/.358/.382/.740 line. What's the average center fielder's line this season? .264/.326/.406/.732. Looks to me like Denorfia's rate of production is on par with the league average center fielder. Toss in well above average defense, and that's a quality big league player. Who wouldn't want that for a league minimum salary?

Also, while simultaneously stashing Denorfia away on the bench or in Louisville last season in 2006, the Reds draft another center fielder with a reputation of solid defense with their first round draft pick. That's the same college hitter who will be 23-years-old in less than four months and is impressing Dragons fans down in Low-A with a .706 OPS. This comes after impressing fans up in Billings with a .768 OPS in the Pioneer League.

So yea, the Reds drafted a player who looks to be a poor man's version of Chris Denorfia while simultaneously crapping on the original version of Chris Denorfia.

As for the Denorfia trade, I'm rather indifferent on it, partially because McBeth's playing this season while Denorfia isn't. But if you don't believe Chris Denorfia has any value to a big league club, then I can't wait to see your opinion of one Drew Stubbs.

My opinion of one Drew Stubbs has been well documented on this board- he's terrible. It was a bad pick at the time and it is a bad pick now. That doesn't make Denorfia any better. He may be an OK major league outfielder in time, but there was absolutely no room for him on this Reds team, and with Jay Bruce coming soon there isn't much room for him in the future. Given that he was out for the year and the Reds need arms in the bullpen in the worst way, I am absolutely 100% for the trade. Period.

Cyclone792
06-25-2007, 03:23 PM
My opinion of one Drew Stubbs has been well documented on this board- he's terrible. It was a bad pick at the time and it is a bad pick now. That doesn't make Denorfia any better. He may be an OK major league outfielder in time, but there was absolutely no room for him on this Reds team, and with Jay Bruce coming soon there isn't much room for him in the future. Given that he was out for the year and the Reds need arms in the bullpen in the worst way, I am absolutely 100% for the trade. Period.

As I said, I'm indifferent on the trade itself. But that's mostly because McBeth's playing this season and Denorfia's not.

What's interesting is that the "depth" of the Reds outfield is really an overrated proposition. Sure, the Reds used to have depth ... but it's disappearing quickly. Pena's gone, Kearns is gone, and now Denorfia's gone. Griffey's gone no later than 2008, and all the accounts I've seen suggests the Reds are much more interested in unloading Dunn rather than resigning him. That leaves Josh Hamilton, Jay Bruce, who was just promoted to AA last week, Ryan Freel, and the world of the unknown for 2009 .. and Freel himself is liable to end his career with a collision each time he walks to the outfield.

Norris Hopper certainly isn't an answer. Nobody has any idea if Chris Dickerson's 170 plate appearances in Louisville is indicative of development or a fluke. Cody Strait is going backwards. And Drew Stubbs is Drew Stubbs.

The Reds may appear to have outfield depth now, but the Griffey and Dunn trains are ready to pull out of the station themselves. When that happens, the outfield could be a problem.

Benihana
06-25-2007, 03:32 PM
As I said, I'm indifferent on the trade itself. But that's mostly because McBeth's playing this season and Denorfia's not.

What's interesting is that the "depth" of the Reds outfield is really an overrated proposition. Sure, the Reds used to have depth ... but it's disappearing quickly. Pena's gone, Kearns is gone, and now Denorfia's gone. Griffey's gone no later than 2008, and all the accounts I've seen suggests the Reds are much more interested in unloading Dunn rather than resigning him. That leaves Josh Hamilton, Jay Bruce, who was just promoted to AA last week, Ryan Freel, and the world of the unknown for 2009 .. and Freel himself is liable to end his career with a collision each time he walks to the outfield.

Norris Hopper certainly isn't an answer. Nobody has any idea if Chris Dickerson's 170 plate appearances in Louisville is indicative of development or a fluke. Cody Strait is going backwards. And Drew Stubbs is Drew Stubbs.

The Reds may appear to have outfield depth now, but the Griffey and Dunn trains are ready to pull out of the station themselves. When that happens, the outfield could be a problem.

Now you're really stretching. IF both Griffey and Dunn are traded, which by the way, I'd give <20&#37; chance of happening, then you might say the Reds could use an extra OF. Even in that case, they'd still have Hamilton and Bruce manning 2 of the 3 spots for the next 5+ years (at which time Denorfia will be 33 years old), and that doesn't even include Freel, who has achieved much more success at the major league level than Denorfia ever has.

More likely, if either one is traded, it will be just one of them. And the Reds will still have four guys on the OF depth chart that still would have been ahead of Denorfia (Dunn/Jr, Hamilton, Freel, Bruce). This also ignores the possibility that Votto may be roaming the OF by the end of the summer, which would make Denorfia the #5 (or 6, if there's no trade) outfielder in the organization. Can you say, spare part?

Cyclone792
06-25-2007, 03:46 PM
Now you're really stretching. IF both Griffey and Dunn are traded, which by the way, I'd give <20&#37; chance of happening, then you might say the Reds could use an extra OF. Even in that case, they'd still have Hamilton and Bruce manning 2 of the 3 spots for the next 5+ years (at which time Denorfia will be 33 years old), and that doesn't even include Freel, who has achieved much more success at the major league level than Denorfia ever has.

More likely, if either one is traded, it will be just one of them. And the Reds will still have four guys on the OF depth chart that still would have been ahead of Denorfia (Dunn/Jr, Hamilton, Freel, Bruce). This also ignores the possibility that Votto may be roaming the OF by the end of the summer, which would make Denorfia the #5 (or 6, if there's no trade) outfielder in the organization. Can you say, spare part?

Griffey is 37-years-old and has an option in 2009 for $16.5 million that most likely will not be picked up. Dunn would need a contract extension to be signed on with the Reds during the 2009 season.

There's no stretching when I state that the chances of Dunn and Griffey both being gone by 2009 is a real reality that will most likely happen. You've obviously failed to take any of this into account.

Always Red
06-25-2007, 03:48 PM
Can you say, spare part?

I think it's obvious that the Reds FO agrees with you, Beni.

I'll be interested to see what Deno can do in a full time role in CF, if the A's give him that opportunity next year. I agree with what Cyclone has written concerning Deno, but to me, that's water under the bridge.

Brady Clark (whom Deno is often compared to) looked like a big loss, early on, but his career did not stay on track.

Denorfia may turn out to be a spare part, as you say. But he earned a better chance than he got here, with the numbers he put up for this organization throughout the minor leagues, especially his past two years in AAA. I do agree that Hamilton's presence and immediate production pushed Deno one step down the ladder.

Benihana
06-25-2007, 04:04 PM
Here's what I don't understand. For all of you Denorfiates (nice word!) who claim that he wasn't given enough of a chance to play, who did you want to see him play over? If he wasn't out for the year, would you play him over Hamilton? Griffey? Dunn? I just don't get it! Best case scenario, he never had a shot, nor should he have had the chance to be anything more than the 4th outfielder, and that job is/was already taken by Ryan Freel. I was fine with trading Freel before the season began and giving the #4 job to Denorfia, but once Freel resigned for cheap, Denorfia was a goner. And I can't envision any other way that it should have went down.

As for your comments Cyclone, if and when the Reds started to struggle in May because of their bullpen woes, you would honestly be against acquiring bullpen help because a guy might be imporant to hang onto for 2009 (when he'll be starting his first season as a regular at age 30) when and if the Reds trade two or more of their current outfielders, I think you would have met some opposition.

Any guy at any position can be considered valuable because they provide depth in case your star players at that position get injured or traded. But especially when they aren't (by anyone's calculations) considered future stars, those are the exact same guys you have to be willing to trade to improve your weaknesses. And that is exactly what happened with Denorfia.

Cyclone792
06-25-2007, 04:12 PM
Here's what I don't understand. For all of you Denorfiates (nice word!) ...

And that blanket label is when I stopped reading.

That type of blanket label reminds me when certain people just started firing around the "statheads" label.

bucksfan2
06-25-2007, 04:20 PM
I cant wait until the daily Deno updates that will surface on this board when he is back to playing full time next season. Fact of the matter is Deno really didn't have a place to play. This organization went with Freel, probably becasue that had simliar skill sets and Freel's popularity with the fans. IMO that your 3rd and 4th outfielders are dime a dozen type players. There is little doubt that in a reserve roll Hopper can give the reds simliar production to what Deno can do. Maybe the reds felt that Deno's best bet was for him to play everyday and realized that they would use him as the 4th outfielder. If that was the case to trade him for a young reliever made sense.

Benihana
06-25-2007, 04:32 PM
And that blanket label is when I stopped reading.

That type of blanket label reminds me when certain people just started firing around the "statheads" label.

wow. lighten up

Always Red
06-25-2007, 04:44 PM
Here's what I don't understand. For all of you Denorfiates (nice word!) who claim that he wasn't given enough of a chance to play, who did you want to see him play over? If he wasn't out for the year, would you play him over Hamilton? Griffey? Dunn? I just don't get it! Best case scenario, he never had a shot, nor should he have had the chance to be anything more than the 4th outfielder, and that job is/was already taken by Ryan Freel. I was fine with trading Freel before the season began and giving the #4 job to Denorfia, but once Freel resigned for cheap, Denorfia was a goner. And I can't envision any other way that it should have went down.

As for your comments Cyclone, if and when the Reds started to struggle in May because of their bullpen woes, you would honestly be against acquiring bullpen help because a guy might be imporant to hang onto for 2009 (when he'll be starting his first season as a regular at age 30) when and if the Reds trade two or more of their current outfielders, I think you would have met some opposition.

Any guy at any position can be considered valuable because they provide depth in case your star players at that position get injured or traded. But especially when they aren't (by anyone's calculations) considered future stars, those are the exact same guys you have to be willing to trade to improve your weaknesses. And that is exactly what happened with Denorfia.

Beni, would that make you an anti-Denorfiate? ;)

Is there any doubt that Denorfia did not get an opportunity? I think that's pretty clear, for whatever reason, the Reds did not want to play him.

Me? I'd have traded Freel away, or put him back in the super-sub role, and Deno would have been my everyday CF. At the beginning of the season, Hamilton was literally a spare part, a guy who needed to be here on the bench to stick with this organization. Hamilton's production sure changed that, for me, and I'd have ultimately given him those AB's instead of Deno. But I believe either Griffey or Dunn will be gone from here soon, and then Hamilton could be moved to RF, which might be his best spot in the OF.

It's a moot point; like I said, I feel the Reds missed on Denorfia. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. If McBeth turns into a bonafide end of the game pitcher, the trade will have been a good one for the Reds, and in the end that's what matters to me.

Highlifeman21
06-25-2007, 06:59 PM
I think it's obvious that the Reds FO agrees with you, Beni.

I'll be interested to see what Deno can do in a full time role in CF, if the A's give him that opportunity next year. I agree with what Cyclone has written concerning Deno, but to me, that's water under the bridge.

Brady Clark (whom Deno is often compared to) looked like a big loss, early on, but his career did not stay on track.

Denorfia may turn out to be a spare part, as you say. But he earned a better chance than he got here, with the numbers he put up for this organization throughout the minor leagues, especially his past two years in AAA. I do agree that Hamilton's presence and immediate production pushed Deno one step down the ladder.

It's the Reds' inability to accurately identify talent that worries me the most.

They missed the boat on Denorfia (shouldn't have let him go, should have given him more PAs post-Kearns) and they really missed the boat on Stubbs (should have never drafted him).

I think they've also largely overvalued Ryan Freel, as well as Norris Hopper.

Conversely, I think they've largely undervalued Adam Dunn, as well as Edwin Encarnacion.

Bottomline, I'm very worried about Krivsky and our scouts collective inability to accurately judge talent.

Votto and Bruce both project well, but after that, we have a steep dropoff offensively and after Bailey, we really have no arms that you can say with any certainty will have long MLB careers.

Chip R
06-25-2007, 07:46 PM
It's the Reds' inability to accurately identify talent that worries me the most.

They missed the boat on Denorfia (shouldn't have let him go, should have given him more PAs post-Kearns) and they really missed the boat on Stubbs (should have never drafted him).


That's what bothered me about giving up on Deno. Just a year earlier he was the Reds minor league player of the year - a title that seems to cause problems for the winners. Then a year later, he's traded. Now either the Reds are stacked at outfielder in the minors or it's an indictment of the Reds minor league system that their POTY one year removed was traded that soon.

I don't know how good Deno is, was or will be but I agree that they should have given him a better shot post-trade.

Aronchis
06-25-2007, 08:03 PM
I disagree. They didn't miss the boat on Deno at all, they knew exactly what he is and the type of player he would be...................which they feel they can replicate again........and again and again.

I think when the A's offered the late blooming McBeth into the picture, it was enough to move the injured soon to be 29 year old player in 2008.

KronoRed
06-25-2007, 09:16 PM
I love how Deno is getting older the more pages this thread has ;)

Rojo
06-25-2007, 09:49 PM
Outfield depth over bullpen depth?

Whatever.

Chip R
06-25-2007, 09:50 PM
I love how Deno is getting older the more pages this thread has ;)


A few more pages and he'll be old enough for Wayne to trade for and put in the bullpen. ;)

Mario-Rijo
06-25-2007, 09:54 PM
That's what bothered me about giving up on Deno. Just a year earlier he was the Reds minor league player of the year - a title that seems to cause problems for the winners. Then a year later, he's traded. Now either the Reds are stacked at outfielder in the minors or it's an indictment of the Reds minor league system that their POTY one year removed was traded that soon.

I don't know how good Deno is, was or will be but I agree that they should have given him a better shot post-trade.

They only took 4 OF's in the draft maybe they think so.

Mario-Rijo
06-25-2007, 10:07 PM
If he could sustain these #'s he would hold some value if he can play CF.

Career 164 PA's
.278 BA, .358 OBP, .382 Slg% (ugh, a little rough but I can overlook that)

Problem is he had this line:

.339 BABIP

I'm not insuating that he couldn't maintain it, for all I know he is elite with his bat control which he would have to be to maintain that BABIP. If he can't however that BA and OBP go way down to bench player at best.

Hopper is fairly comparable but with a much lower BABIP

163 PA's
.288, .340, .370

.315 BABIP

bucksfan2
06-26-2007, 11:05 AM
It's the Reds' inability to accurately identify talent that worries me the most.

They missed the boat on Denorfia (shouldn't have let him go, should have given him more PAs post-Kearns) and they really missed the boat on Stubbs (should have never drafted him).

I think they've also largely overvalued Ryan Freel, as well as Norris Hopper.

Conversely, I think they've largely undervalued Adam Dunn, as well as Edwin Encarnacion.

Bottomline, I'm very worried about Krivsky and our scouts collective inability to accurately judge talent.

Votto and Bruce both project well, but after that, we have a steep dropoff offensively and after Bailey, we really have no arms that you can say with any certainty will have long MLB careers.

How does a difference in opinon mean the reds are have an inability to accurately identify talent? I don't want to even get into the Stubbs debate so I will leave that alone. What exactly did Deno prove at the major league level. He was a very good minor league player but he really had no where to play when Hamilton showed that he was better than expected his first season. So they move Deno, a guy who is unproven, injured until 2008, and will not be a starter for a reliever who shows some promise and you conclude that they can not accurately identify talent?

Heath
06-26-2007, 11:12 AM
IMO -

Denorfia > Hopper

However, when you can get a live arm like McBeth for Denorfia, it's a good deal. And, with The Josh Hamilton Experience exceeding all expectations, Denorfia would have been "expendable". Would Norris Hopper be able to land a Marcus McBeth?

This coming from a guy who really, really, really wanted Denorfia to get regular at-bats.

Heath
06-26-2007, 11:13 AM
Oh, btw, what ever happened to Milton Bradley? I know the Royals claimed him, but he failed a physical. (allegedly) :D

Big Klu
06-26-2007, 11:24 AM
Oh, btw, what ever happened to Milton Bradley? I know the Royals claimed him, but he failed a physical. (allegedly) :D

Milton Bradley? What does he have to do with this thread? :D

flyer85
06-26-2007, 11:29 AM
Oh, btw, what ever happened to Milton Bradley? I know the Royals claimed him, but he failed a physical. (allegedly) :Dactually they traded for him but he was sent back due to a failed physical.

I assume Beane is still trying to find a deal so that someone will take the salary.

Chip R
06-26-2007, 11:37 AM
actually they traded for him but he was sent back due to a failed physical.

I assume Beane is still trying to find a deal so that someone will take the salary.


Don't tell Wayne or he'll trade for him for sure. ;)

Heath
06-26-2007, 12:04 PM
actually they traded for him but he was sent back due to a failed physical.

I assume Beane is still trying to find a deal so that someone will take the salary.

If you got traded to Kansas City, wouldn't you fail your physical too?

flyer85
06-26-2007, 12:28 PM
If you got traded to Kansas City, wouldn't you fail your physical too?I'd fail my physical no matter where I was traded. :help:

KronoRed
06-26-2007, 01:07 PM
Health problems?

Well then he's going to be ours very soon ;)

Highlifeman21
06-27-2007, 10:34 AM
How does a difference in opinon mean the reds are have an inability to accurately identify talent? I don't want to even get into the Stubbs debate so I will leave that alone. What exactly did Deno prove at the major league level. He was a very good minor league player but he really had no where to play when Hamilton showed that he was better than expected his first season. So they move Deno, a guy who is unproven, injured until 2008, and will not be a starter for a reliever who shows some promise and you conclude that they can not accurately identify talent?

Your timeline is wrong.

Hamilton got more playing time b/c Denorfia was injured. Hamilton showed a good spring, but was going to make the club regardless of Denorfia's injury, due to the fact he is a Rule V pick up. Hamilton has outperformed Freel, yet Freel was given an extension. Interesting logic by the FO.

Deno proved plenty at the MLB level. He was our best option defensively in CF, as well as our Minor Leaguer of the Year. Also, he put up IIRC league average offensive numbers in the limited PAs he got in 2006.

He had one bad week immediately following the Kearns departure, and Narron gave up on him.

The Reds got a young arm in McBeth that could be something, could be a back of the bullpen guy. The jury is still out on him.

Denorfia > Freel > Hopper, yet which one of those 3 is gone? That shows me the FO has an inability to accurately judge talent.

westofyou
06-27-2007, 10:45 AM
Denorfia > Freel > Hopper, yet which one of those 3 is gone? That shows me the FO has an inability to accurately judge talent.

So DeNorfia and his 144 MLB ab's is already better then Freel eh?

Don't see it at all myself, Freel actually has a MLB track record.

RANDY IN INDY
06-27-2007, 10:49 AM
So DeNorfia and his 144 MLB ab's is already better then Freel eh?

Don't see it at all myself, Freel actually has a MLB track record.

Projections man, you know.

westofyou
06-27-2007, 10:55 AM
Projections man, you know.

This season Chris projects to head over to Berkeley to check out Telegraph Avenue and then over to the City to have dinner at Sam Wo's in Chinatown.

gonelong
06-27-2007, 11:51 AM
So DeNorfia and his 144 MLB ab's is already better then Freel eh?

Don't see it at all myself, Freel actually has a MLB track record.

I'm not going to sweat losing Denorfia when we get a useful arm in return ... but in the Reds situation I'd have taken my chances with Denorfia at ~$400K over Freel at ~$2.3M and have shopped Freel instead.

Offensively I think you'd get a bit better OBP out of Freel and more steals, though those are both tempered by his propensity to get picked off/caught stealing.

I think you'd get fairly comparable offensive numbers from Denorfia and better OF defense.

To me, they are likely a wash, though as you point out, Freel has a much longer track record to draw upon (which is mostly the Reds own fault for not giving Denorfia a bigger audition last season, IMO).

At a $2M difference in salary I take my chances with Denorfia, though I'd realize I am taking a chance.

GL

westofyou
06-27-2007, 12:04 PM
Offensively I think you'd get a bit better OBP out of Freel and more steals, though those are both tempered by his propensity to get picked off/caught stealing.

You also get a guy who plays every OF position and 2 IF positions, hence part of the salary is tied up in that multi position tool belt.


I think you'd get fairly comparable offensive numbers from Denorfia and better OF defense.

How's his arm issues going to pan out in the long run?

Benihana
06-27-2007, 12:36 PM
Deno proved plenty at the MLB level.

huh?

To understand the Freel situation, you must also remember the timeline. At the time that Denorfia was traded, Encarnacion was really struggling and some were concerned that he could not shoulder the load at 3B. Freel started playing 3B. Freel is much more valuable than Denorfia both because he has a much better major league track record, and perhaps more importantly because he can play almost every position on the field, (not to mention he is a fan favorite) and he comes at a relatively inexpensive price. I think the FO may have even tried to explore a Freel trade in Spring Training, however realizing that there wasn't much of a market for him and he was willing to extend his deal for very little money, the decision became clear.

Denorfia is gone. So is Ben Broussard. I'm not losing any sleep, and neither should you. It's time to move on.

gonelong
06-27-2007, 01:29 PM
You also get a guy who plays every OF position and 2 IF positions, hence part of the salary is tied up in that multi position tool belt.

I'd have a hard time believing that Denorfia wouldn't meet or exceed Freel defensively in all 3 OF positions if the need arose. I don't feel like Freel plays 3B or 2B particularly well and I'd only use him for spot duty at either position. While Freel has an edge with the 2 IF positions, I think Denorfia is a better OF. IMO its a push to a large degree ... I guess it mostly depends on the makeup of the rest of the roster, which if you have Denorfia you have and extra $2M to round out.


How's his arm issues going to pan out in the long run?

I'd say chances are that his arm won't be an ongoing issue, but you never know.

IMO the Reds can't wait around for sure things if the want to be successful ... they'll have to take chances here and there. This is one of those that I'd take in their situation.

GL

BRM
06-29-2007, 11:06 AM
SAN DIEGO (AP) -- The San Diego Padres (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/sdg/;_ylt=AkvO9Lbbmu7jmEcjnS0Rei.pu7YF) agreed to acquire temperamental outfielder Milton Bradley (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6406/;_ylt=AiaDbnTXXOQn3KU1wGu7gBmpu7YF) from the Oakland Athletics (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/oak/;_ylt=Arw6E3ZR7nebAZJY8UJtBiCpu7YF) on Thursday night, the second time in just more than a week that the team decided to add a player with a history of blowups.

The Padres will send Oakland a minor league pitcher, several people with knowledge of the deal said, speaking on condition of anonymity because it had yet to be announced.

Bradley could join the team during a weekend series at the Los Angeles Dodgers (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/lad/;_ylt=Aqflm.MJI_wkqwJ0U5Vmoh2pu7YF), one of his former teams.


LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-padres-bradley&prov=ap&type=lgns)

Benihana
06-29-2007, 11:53 AM
LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-padres-bradley&prov=ap&type=lgns)

that's good news. no more Dunn to Pads rumors.

KronoRed
06-29-2007, 01:59 PM
Bradley steadily making his way to every west coast team, look out Seattle.

Chip R
07-01-2007, 11:50 PM
Just saw Bradley was put on the DL by SD because of a strained oblique muscle. :lol:

Not laughing at Bradley but the irony of the Pads signing this guy and him almost immediately getting hurt.