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RedEye
06-21-2007, 06:45 PM
Just in case you didn't run across this article, here's a link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=pavano

Michael Weinreb turns a good phrase, and I think this is a fascinating piece of baseball/human interest writing. Contrary to popular RedsZone opinion, Eric Milton may in fact not be the worst FA pitcher signing in recent memory... although taking the two teams' budgets into account, it's a close race.

Your thoughts?

dougdirt
06-21-2007, 07:22 PM
Mike Hampton. Chan Ho Park. Both much worse FA signings than Eric Milton and its not really even close.

RedEye
06-21-2007, 07:51 PM
Yeah, good point. I didn't think of those guys. At least the Reds got some good starts out of Milton.

westofyou
06-21-2007, 08:22 PM
Mark Davis, Wayne Garland also can be added.

MartyFan
06-21-2007, 08:27 PM
Denny Neagle

Chip R
06-21-2007, 08:28 PM
Mike Hampton. Chan Ho Park. Both much worse FA signings than Eric Milton and its not really even close.


Funny you mention Chan Ho Park. The new morning sports talk host here was saying the Reds need to spend more money like Tom Hicks of the Rangers. He said we need to get our own Chan Ho Park. Unfortunately he was serious.

flyer85
06-21-2007, 09:22 PM
Michael Weinreb turns a good phrase, and I think this is a fascinating piece of baseball/human interest writing. Contrary to popular RedsZone opinion, Eric Milton may in fact not be the worst FA pitcher signing in recent memory... although taking the two teams' budgets into account, it's a close race.

Your thoughts?that entire free agent class(martinez, Benson, Lieber, Pavano, Milton, Clements, Perez, etc) of pitchers was abysmal.

RedEye
06-21-2007, 09:58 PM
that entire free agent class(martinez, Benson, Lieber, Pavano, Milton, Clements, Perez, etc) of pitchers was abysmal.

Without a doubt. I assume you have to take into account both team budget and player performance when assessing which moves were bigger busts. Big market clubs obviously have more margin for error when it comes to these things.

Here's how I'd rank the players you listed, starting with the least-bad deal:

Jon Lieber - I don't really consider Lieber to be a bust in the same sense as the others. I have the impression he's done a credible job as a Phillie, or at least a league-average one. Philadelphia has a large enough budget that I don't believe he has hamstrung them unduly over the past three years.

Pedro Martinez - Yes, he has been injured a lot, but the Mets did get some very productive innings out of him early on. Given their large overall budget, this isn't that bad of a deal IMO. Certainly not good--and they way overpaid--but not an unmitigated disaster.

Matt Clement - Absolutely terrible after his first year, and has been injured this year. I thought this was a great signing at the time, and was jealous of the Red Sox. Strange how things change; he may not even start when he returns. Still, the Sox can afford a few mistakes.

Kris Benson - Was he a free agent in 2005? If I'm not mistaken, he actually got traded after his first year on the deal, which is hard to believe. Anyway, he falls into the Clement category, but he is a degree worse because of the injury. I still can't believe Baltimore traded for him! And for John Maine and Julio Jorge! At least his wife provides some distraction for the press...

Eric Milton - Struggled to stay healthy and struggled to post league average stats when he is. His salary completely hamstrings the franchise, which magnifies his below-mediocre performance.

Odalis Perez - If Eric Milton were a Royal, he'd be Odalis Perez. But KC has even less margin for error than our beloved Redlegs. Odalis moves ahead of Milty on my list for that reason.

Carl Pavano - He's got to be number one, which is why I posted the article. This is just a crazy, crazy story. Bruised buttocks? Hidden rib injuries? Sheesh. Even though the Yanks have a huge cushion, Pavano's deal looks like absolute highway robbery for five wins in three years. Unbelievable.

Okay... this list was a lot less fun to write than I thought it would be. I'm basically splitting hairs... they are all terrible.

Highlifeman21
06-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Without a doubt. I assume you have to take into account both team budget and player performance when assessing which moves were bigger busts. Big market clubs obviously have more margin for error when it comes to these things.

Here's how I'd rank the players you listed, starting with the least-bad deal:

Jon Lieber - I don't really consider Lieber to be a bust in the same sense as the others. I have the impression he's done a credible job as a Phillie, or at least a league-average one. Philadelphia has a large enough budget that I don't believe he has hamstrung them unduly over the past three years.

Pedro Martinez - Yes, he has been injured a lot, but the Mets did get some very productive innings out of him early on. Given their large overall budget, this isn't that bad of a deal IMO. Certainly not good--and they way overpaid--but not an unmitigated disaster.

Matt Clement - Absolutely terrible after his first year, and has been injured this year. I thought this was a great signing at the time, and was jealous of the Red Sox. Strange how things change; he may not even start when he returns. Still, the Sox can afford a few mistakes.

Kris Benson - Was he a free agent in 2005? If I'm not mistaken, he actually got traded after his first year on the deal, which is hard to believe. Anyway, he falls into the Clement category, but he is a degree worse because of the injury. I still can't believe Baltimore traded for him! And for John Maine and Julio Jorge! At least his wife provides some distraction for the press...

Eric Milton - Struggled to stay healthy and struggled to post league average stats when he is. His salary completely hamstrings the franchise, which magnifies his below-mediocre performance.

Odalis Perez - If Eric Milton were a Royal, he'd be Odalis Perez. But KC has even less margin for error than our beloved Redlegs. Odalis moves ahead of Milty on my list for that reason.

Carl Pavano - He's got to be number one, which is why I posted the article. This is just a crazy, crazy story. Bruised buttocks? Hidden rib injuries? Sheesh. Even though the Yanks have a huge cushion, Pavano's deal looks like absolute highway robbery for five wins in three years. Unbelievable.

Okay... this list was a lot less fun to write than I thought it would be. I'm basically splitting hairs... they are all terrible.

Minus probably Jon Lieber's Phillie Phun, that is one big list of suck.

Pedro's been hurt, so you can take him off the suck list, as well. When he's healthy, he's a guy I want in a deciding game. Call me crazy, but I would give him the ball. But unlike Grady Little, I'd pull him when he's done.




I'd also add Jason Schmidt this year, Barry Zito this year and AJ Burnett whenever he signed with Toronto as well as his partner in crime on the Jays, BJ Ryan.

Those 4 top my list of bad contracts at the time, and at least 2 of them look to be horrible with season ending injuries.

TOBTTReds
06-21-2007, 11:56 PM
No love for Darren Driefort???

Tony Cloninger
06-22-2007, 01:17 AM
Driefort.......what a complete sham of a pitcher...based on the hype.

Boras has no shame......he got his money.

TOBTTReds
06-22-2007, 01:37 AM
We may be talking Zito...in what, 7 years?

Hoosier Red
06-22-2007, 09:50 AM
Driefort.......what a complete sham of a pitcher...based on the hype.

Boras has no shame......he got his money.

I'm just curious, do you think its Boras' responsibility to inform teams that his client really isn't that good?

Tony Cloninger
06-22-2007, 05:35 PM
:laugh:.......Not at all........I dislike him more for the way he holds teams hostage for draft picks....the whole JD Drew thing. JD Drew is a Tin Man.....all talent and no real heart or drive IMO for the game...just to get the best paycheck possible. Now we should all try to get the best paycheck possible...i know that..I just think he is Pavano like in his injuries and just "whatever" laid back attitude.

Teams are stupid to let Boras bid against themselves...If there is anyone they should collude against...it is him.

RedEye
06-22-2007, 07:37 PM
We may be talking Zito...in what, 7 years?

I sort of have a feeling that Zito will end up being a better deal. He's not worth what he signed for obviously, but he seems pretty durable and effective. I would be surprised if he's not at least an above-average starter for the foreseeable future. He shouldn't be the best-paid pitcher ever, but I don't think he'll be a complete bust.

OTOH, early 2007 results notwithstanding, I have to think that Gil Meche and Ted Lilly might soon join our list of FA pitcher albatrosses.

Strikes Out Looking
06-22-2007, 10:10 PM
that entire free agent class(martinez, Benson, Lieber, Pavano, Milton, Clements, Perez, etc) of pitchers was abysmal.

Derrick Lowe is not and has not been abysmal for the Dodgers. I wish the Reds had signed him instead of Uncle Milty.

RedEye
06-23-2007, 01:47 AM
Derrick Lowe is not and has not been abysmal for the Dodgers. I wish the Reds had signed him instead of Uncle Milty.

I didn't realize Lowe was the same year as Milty. Somehow I thought he was a year or two afterwards.