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View Full Version : Lohse Should Move To Pen



RedLegSuperStar
06-24-2007, 01:55 AM
This is unreal.. one or two starts we'll get a great outing out of Lohse and then he goes on these streaks where he will lose 3-4 in a row and we aren't talking 1-2 run games.. games much like tonight. Lohse is so unconsistant and it's depressing..

Gosling or Dumatrait should be options.

RedEye
06-24-2007, 03:17 AM
Lohse should be traded while he still has any value.

harangatang
06-24-2007, 03:19 AM
Lohse had the same consistency problems before he came to the Reds in Minnesota. This recent streak of bad luck came as no surprise to me or others. Sure he has great stuff but so did other pitchers like Luke Hudson. The problem with Lohse is the fact that Scott Boras is going to demand too much for Lohse if the Reds hang on to him. I think it's time to let Lohse go on his way but I'd wait for his next hot streak before I'd pull the trigger.

KronoRed
06-24-2007, 03:26 AM
Lohse should be traded while he still has any value.

Yep, we have some arms out in the pen and in AAA that I'd rather see getting time then more Lohse, trade him before he has no value at all.

schroomytunes
06-24-2007, 03:58 AM
before we trade him, he has too get HOT!!!!! we can trade him now 4 what a basg of balls. Seriously get a life reds fans, he has no value right now, zip ....he needs to get on fire if not we get a supplemental pick . So stop your whining and root 4 your team 4 PETES SACK,,,, no pun intented.

The Baumer
06-24-2007, 04:14 AM
before we trade him, he has too get HOT!!!!! we can trade him now 4 what a basg of balls. Seriously get a life reds fans, he has no value right now, zip ....he needs to get on fire if not we get a supplemental pick . So stop your whining and root 4 your team 4 PETES SACK,,,, no pun intented.

I've talked to Pete and he'd actually prefer it if people left his sack alone.

OnBaseMachine
06-24-2007, 04:38 AM
Lohse should be traded while he still has any value.

Yep. I would have traded him last week when his ERA was in the solid 4.20-4.30 range. I hope Krivsky doesn't hang on to him too long...

MrCinatit
06-24-2007, 06:18 AM
It was about one year ago today when the Angels dumped Jeff Weaver on the Cardinals, where he did terrible in the regular season but respectable in the post season.
This shows me a couple things:
1) Teams that are in contention will do things which look silly at time - but sometimes they work.
2) Teams that are in contention will look at cases in the past such as that which have worked, and hope they also catch lightening in the bottle.
I am hoping we find some sucker to take him in a trade. He is not doing us any help, this is for certain - and as others have said, I would rather watch a youngster get a chance than a veteran continually fail.

GAC
06-24-2007, 06:19 AM
Over his last three starts, Lohse is 0-3 with an 8.66 ERA. He's lost four of his last five starts and ran his record to 3-10 with a 5.02 ERA. There are two other 10-game losers in the National League and only the Cardinals Kip Wells (11 losses) has more.

Lohse has been a double-digit loser in each of the last five seasons with the Twins and Reds. His last double-digit winning season was 2003 when he was 14-11.

Lurking in the wings is left-hander Bobby Livingston, who pitched a four-hit shutout for Triple-A Louisville on Friday. Livingston, who had one strong start and another decent start for the Reds already this season, is 3-4 with a 4.00 ERA in 13 starts with Louisville.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070623&content_id=2045625&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Hard to trade a guy who is performing like he is, and making 4.2 Mil.

Putting him in the pen, if he performs well, may help to up his trade value.

But what really bothers me is that we were facing a pitcher (Washburn) who entered the night 0-2 with an 8.83 ERA in four June starts, amnd we can't go squat against him. Even poor lefties are killing us.

Always Red
06-24-2007, 09:11 AM
Lohse should be traded while he still has any value.

That ship has sailed, IMHO.

Lohse has the physical stuff to be a good closer, but he's a total head case.

I don't think there will be any takers for him. I put him in middle to long relief and see if you can polish him up a little bit, to trade him for another trinket.

mth123
06-24-2007, 09:41 AM
That ship has sailed, IMHO.

Lohse has the physical stuff to be a good closer, but he's a total head case.

I don't think there will be any takers for him. I put him in middle to long relief and see if you can polish him up a little bit, to trade him for another trinket.

Maybe not. This 3 game bad stretch has been against the Mariners, A's and Angels. Some NL team in need of a starter after the interleague period has ended would probably be willing to stick Lohse in the back of the rotation to face the NL line-ups that Lohse has had some success against. If Lohse can string together a couple decent starts back in the NL, some team with a need will probably give "something" for him. He won't get the return he may have earlier in the year when many were calling for him to be dumped before its too late, but by the time he's moved, he'll only cost his new team less than $2 Million for the rest of the year and there may not be many starters out there to be had.

I could see a number of teams still being interested. LA just lost Schmidt. It looks like Philly has lost both Garcia and Lieber. Atlanta is short a starter. St. Louis and Houston may both try to add a guy to make a run. The Reds won't get a top prospect for him but probably could add an arm for the mix along the lines of Marcus McBeth. Lohse to Atlanta for Joey Devine would be a good deal for both teams IMO.

Reds1
06-24-2007, 10:17 AM
If you have someone you want to start like Dumitrait, etc. you could. He has had some incredible starts so part of me wants to keep running him out there and make sure. He has the stuff we know, but just doesn't seem to have his head right yet.

edabbs44
06-24-2007, 10:29 AM
If the Pen is a nickname for another team, then I'm all ears.

mth123
06-24-2007, 10:51 AM
If the Pen is a nickname for another team, then I'm all ears.

Me too. Nothing gained by Lohse in the pen. As one of a very few starters likely to hit the market, he'll have value even with his current mediocrity. The only way putting him in the pen increases or even equals that value is if he morphs into a shut down reliever. I don't think that is likely.

Falls City Beer
06-24-2007, 10:58 AM
Me too. Nothing gained by Lohse in the pen. As one of a very few starters likely to hit the market, he'll have value even with his current mediocrity. The only way putting him in the pen increases or even equals that value is if he morphs into a shut down reliever. I don't think that is likely.

He won't have value that bring backs good value unless the other team in the deal has absolutely no concept of a particular prospect's ability.

That's the thing about nickel-and-diming a roster together with guys like Lohse: they don't help your team, and they don't bring back value in trade without your team having to dig forever through other teams' minor league systems to find something of even marginal value. Wayne doesn't get the right guys and he doesn't know when to dump them: Lohse is a classic example.

Marc D
06-24-2007, 11:14 AM
Regardless of sport people will always go for "potential". Lohse still has the same appeal he has always had, the flashes of brilliance and the obvious physical skills. GM's will continue to take a flyer on anyone who posses these traits because they think they, or the player, will fix the mental part. As long as the risk isn't too big they will take a flyer on the potential reward. He's obviously not going to bring back a big haul but I have no doubt he has value to contenders(insert my standard disclaimer...in the hands of a competent GM).

Personally if you can't get a single near MLB ready prospect then I would try and get a package of lower level types(2 or 3 A ballers with talent) and hope some pan out down the road. That's the type of deal a contender can part with a lot easier and we should have the patience and vision to try(here is where I insert my worries over a shortsighted owner to go along with the incompetent GM).

All that said they'll probably extend him.

LINEDRIVER
06-24-2007, 11:33 AM
Does JerrNarr have the ***** to tell Lohse he's going to the pen?? I don't think he does.

edabbs44
06-24-2007, 11:37 AM
Does JerrNarr have the ***** to tell Lohse he's going to the pen?? I don't think he does.

The issue is the replacement. It's not like there's another Homer in AAA waiting for the call.

So for as bad as Lohse is, he is pathetically the best they've got.

LINEDRIVER
06-24-2007, 11:46 AM
I have to disagree. I think there is a replacement. Gosling, Dumatrait or Livingston??? It's a matter of a mgr and a GM having the balls & guts to pull the trigger to make the right move(s). If those 3 guys cant provide a better alternative to Lohse, perhaps the 3 of them should be sent home as well. Im just a bit tired of the lousy pitching and the ownership/mgr/GM standing around watching the fire instead of trying to put the fire out.

Falls City Beer
06-24-2007, 11:46 AM
I'd say making him a reliever at this point in the season probably hurts Lohse's trade value. Had they done it at the beginning of the season, and he performed well, then that's a different matter, but it's too late in the season to move him to the pen if the plan is to trade him.

edabbs44
06-24-2007, 11:51 AM
I have to disagree. I think there is a replacement. Gosling, Dumatrait or Livingston??? It's a matter of a mgr and a GM having the balls & guts to pull the trigger to make the right move(s). If those 3 guys cant provide a better alternative to Lohse, perhaps the 3 of them should be sent home as well.

Gosling? The guy from The Notebook?;)

These guys are just the flavors of the month. I would like to see Dumatrait get a shot but the others will just come up, get abused for 2 starts and then get demoted again.

Matt700wlw
06-24-2007, 02:11 PM
I would try Lohse in the pen before all out cutting him.

You have to pay him anyway, you may as well see if he can help the team in some way, shape, or form.

mth123
06-24-2007, 02:31 PM
I would try Lohse in the pen before all out cutting him.

You have to pay him anyway, you may as well see if he can help the team in some way, shape, or form.

I think the right plan is to trade him, not cut him. Anyone suggesting cutting him is off base. His trade value is higher as a starter IMO.

Matt700wlw
06-24-2007, 02:34 PM
I think the right plan is to trade him, not cut him. Anyone suggesting cutting him is off base. His trade value is higher as a starter IMO.

If you can find somebody who wants him, I'm all for it.....


I may be wrong, but I don't think anybody would take him.....and pay his salary. They may take him, if the Reds pick up the tab, or most of it

mth123
06-24-2007, 03:05 PM
If you can find somebody who wants him, I'm all for it.....


I may be wrong, but I don't think anybody would take him.....and pay his salary. They may take him, if the Reds pick up the tab, or most of it

His salary is $4.2 Million and 2/3 of that will be paid by the deadline. I don't see the remaining $1.4 Million as a big issue at this point. If it gets the Reds a player, the Reds should be happy to kick in the $1 Million or so it would take.

I think lots of teams would love to plug him in where injuries have created holes. Philly has two if its 6 Spring Training starters out for the year and another converted to closer. LA lost Jason Schmidt. Atlanta, St. Louis and Houston have been looking all year. The Mets or Yankees might be interested. His worst stretch has come against AL teams. He may string a couple decent outings together when back in the NL. He should at least net what Denorfia did.

Matt700wlw
06-24-2007, 03:07 PM
If it can be done, it needs to be done.

edabbs44
06-24-2007, 04:02 PM
His salary is $4.2 Million and 2/3 of that will be paid by the deadline. I don't see the remaining $1.4 Million as a big issue at this point. If it gets the Reds a player, the Reds should be happy to kick in the $1 Million or so it would take.

I think lots of teams would love to plug him in where injuries have created holes. Philly has two if its 6 Spring Training starters out for the year and another converted to closer. LA lost Jason Schmidt. Atlanta, St. Louis and Houston have been looking all year. The Mets or Yankees might be interested. His worst stretch has come against AL teams. He may string a couple decent outings together when back in the NL. He should at least net what Denorfia did.

The ironic thing, which I have not heard one bit of criticism for, is that WK got no money for taking Lohse last season while giving up a halfway decent minor league arm. That deal was a loser then and is a loser now.

mth123
06-24-2007, 04:21 PM
The ironic thing, which I have not heard one bit of criticism for, is that WK got no money for taking Lohse last season while giving up a halfway decent minor league arm. That deal was a loser then and is a loser now.

I didn't have a problem with acquiring Lohse as an attempt to stay in playoff contention. I viewed it as sort of a "hail Mary pass with the clock winding down." My problem was with keeping him for 2007. When the pitching market got so hot last November with $ flying around the way they were, Lohse could have been traded for a decent young player and some one else could have dealt with the arb case, signing, FA year issue. I think last November the young player that could have been had would have probably been better and closer to the majors than the one given up. Of course its all my speculation at this point.

For 2007, the team needed to upgrade and it made most sense to move Lohse with Harang and Arroyo as "aces", Milton locked up and the 5th spot being a place for cheap options.

KronoRed
06-24-2007, 04:31 PM
Why is the suggestion for our bad starters to throw them in the pen? always heard that about Milton too.

Sometimes a bad pitcher is a bad pitcher.

RANDY IN INDY
06-24-2007, 04:42 PM
Lohse might have some value in the pen. He has a great arm, but I'm not sure he has a closer's mentality. Might be worth a shot, just to see how he handles it. This is the season for experiments.

Matt700wlw
06-24-2007, 04:50 PM
Why is the suggestion for our bad starters to throw them in the pen? always heard that about Milton too.

Sometimes a bad pitcher is a bad pitcher.

He's been a bullpen guy before. I don't know how that went, but he has done it.

If he could come in and be the 7th or 8th inning guy (he has the stuff for it), then all of a sudden, the bullpen has a bit more stability.

What's the worst that happens? They lose more ballgames?

RANDY IN INDY
06-24-2007, 04:52 PM
With is arm, he has the stuff to be a 9th inning guy. Doesn't have to hold anything back. The problem I see is the coconut on top of his shoulders.

mth123
06-24-2007, 04:59 PM
2007 is lost. It was lost in December of 2006. How does putting Lohse in the pen help 2008 and beyond? Lohse is a FA after the season and there is little chance he'll be back. Lohse only helps 2008 and beyond through whatever he returns in trade.

IMO he has more trade value as a crummy starter than as a decent reliever. If he becomes a lights out reliever then he may add value. I don't take the chance at devaluing him further with a move to the pen for that long shot hope. He needs to keep going out there, get back on one of his good streaks for a couple games and be traded off. No pen in that picture IMO.

RANDY IN INDY
06-24-2007, 10:29 PM
Inconsistency doesn't usually trade very well.

mth123
06-24-2007, 10:39 PM
Inconsistency doesn't usually trade very well.

Horacio Ramirez netted Rafael Soriano in the off season when alternatives were plentiful. Lohse will bring back something because teams going for it need innings more than anything. In many cases there is no one internally to turn to and Lohse $ are not prohibitive. I think he is a lousey starter and I wouldn't pay for him at his likely rate at the start of the year, but if I'm a team like Philly who has a shot and lost 2 of my rotation pitchers for the season in the last week, a guy like Kyle Lohse looks pretty good right now. I'm not saying the Reds will get Ryan Howard for him. But as a starter its reasonable that he nets a Marcus McBeth type return. As a reliever he nets a PTBNL IMO because there will be many more bullpen options at the deadline than there will be starter options. This year's version of Kyle Lohse would have been the best guy moved last year at the deadline with the exception of Greg Maddux (and he had a limited list of places he'd go).

edabbs44
06-24-2007, 11:24 PM
With is arm, he has the stuff to be a 9th inning guy. Doesn't have to hold anything back. The problem I see is the coconut on top of his shoulders.

It would make sense to try him in the pen before getting rid of him. He could turn out to be a Joe Nathan. You never know with these kooky starters.

RANDY IN INDY
06-24-2007, 11:28 PM
Horacio Ramirez netted Rafael Soriano in the off season when alternatives were plentiful. Lohse will bring back something because teams going for it need innings more than anything. In many cases there is no one internally to turn to and Lohse $ are not prohibitive. I think he is a lousey starter and I wouldn't pay for him at his likely rate at the start of the year, but if I'm a team like Philly who has a shot and lost 2 of my rotation pitchers for the season in the last week, a guy like Kyle Lohse looks pretty good right now. I'm not saying the Reds will get Ryan Howard for him. But as a starter its reasonable that he nets a Marcus McBeth type return. As a reliever he nets a PTBNL IMO because there will be many more bullpen options at the deadline than there will be starter options. This year's version of Kyle Lohse would have been the best guy moved last year at the deadline with the exception of Greg Maddux (and he had a limited list of places he'd go).

Glad you have that all figured out.;)

Redsland
06-25-2007, 11:47 AM
Brantley was really laying into Lohse in the pre-game show yesterday. Brantley said that pitching every fifth day in the majors is a privledge, and Kyle doesn't deserve it. He said Lohse does't work at his game, doesn't care about the results he gets, and doesn't have his head screwed on right. It was a real tirade.

Later Marty and Fay opined that Lohse wouldn't make his next start.

bucksfan2
06-25-2007, 02:37 PM
Brantley was really laying into Lohse in the pre-game show yesterday. Brantley said that pitching every fifth day in the majors is a privledge, and Kyle doesn't deserve it. He said Lohse does't work at his game, doesn't care about the results he gets, and doesn't have his head screwed on right. It was a real tirade.

Later Marty and Fay opined that Lohse wouldn't make his next start.

It seems as if this announcing crew has taken some serious biasas lately. Lohse and Dunn are two players that no matter how they play they are going to be critized to no end. It is starting to get tiresome to hear the Reds Radio crew continue to berate some players because they do not like them.

KronoRed
06-25-2007, 09:18 PM
/\
Been that way for awhile, railing on players is apparently "good radio"

BRM
06-27-2007, 04:04 PM
Lohse is being pushed back a day, per John Fay.



An adjustment to the upcoming Reds probables: Bronson Arroyo will pitch Friday on regular rest. Kyle Lohse, who had been listed as Friday's starter, will pitch Saturday.

Matt700wlw
06-27-2007, 04:06 PM
6 innings, 3 hits, 1 run


Bobby Livingston's start today.....

RedsManRick
06-27-2007, 04:10 PM
12 innings, 17 hits, 4 runs, 1 k

Bobby Livingston's starts in the majors this year.

5 innings, 9 hits, 10 runs, 2 ks.

Bobby Livingston's line in the majors last year.

Brandon Larson had a career minor league OPS of .860. Things to consider.

Matt700wlw
06-27-2007, 04:15 PM
So you'd rather run Lohse out there every 5 days, when he is not part of the future of this team than see if Bobby Livingston is worthy of being part of the future of the team?

I'd rather see what Livingston can do for the remaineder of the season....or Dumatrait...or whomever. Somebody else. Somebody who may be of help next year and for years to come.


Hell, let's see what both of them can do somewhere along the line.

KronoRed
06-27-2007, 04:18 PM
GO for it, just trade Lohse first

Matt700wlw
06-27-2007, 04:21 PM
GO for it, just trade Lohse first

If they can find someone who wants him, even if the Reds take care of some/most of the salary, then they have to trade him.

The real question is...does anybody want him?

chicoruiz
06-27-2007, 04:29 PM
There will always be a market for guys with great arms, because there will always be people who think they're smart enough to fix what's wrong with them. Especially a guy like Lohse...it seems so easy from a distance; just a good talking-to, get his head screwed on straight, and presto! Who knows, one or two of the clubs that think that may actually be right. But I doubt it...

RedsManRick
06-27-2007, 05:26 PM
I'm all for giving high upside guys a shot. Maybe you do give Livingston a spot in the rotation, but only after you cash in on Lohse. Lohse needs to be moved for something of value or he's a wasted asset. He's horribly inconsistent, but he's got talent, and somebody will give us something for that.

Livingston has 4th starter upside. I'm not too terribly concerned about his development. He's a fringe starter who doesn't quite have the years behind him to cement that status.

BRM
06-29-2007, 11:03 AM
mlbtraderumors.com doesn't think much of Lohse's trade value.



Kyle Lohse, SP, CIN - I was pretty high on Lohse after April, thinking he was about to go all Bronson Arroyo on the NL. Good Bronson, that is. But Lohse followed up his first four starts by going 2-10 with a 6.27 ERA and 4.4 K/9. And that actually included a shutout against the Pirates. It's hard to see how Lohse can help a pennant contender this year, but as a Boras client and impending free agent earning $4.2MM, Wayne Krivsky should dump him off somewhere. OK, so now that I think about it, he's more of a DFA candidate than a trade candidate.

Chip R
06-29-2007, 11:27 AM
mlbtraderumors.com doesn't think much of Lohse's trade value.



I'm not sure other teams have even when he was hot. I don't believe GMs are as mercurial in their thinking as we think they are. In otherwords, I don't think a few outstanding starts is going to influence other GMs that he had turned a corner all of a sudden. They know Lohse is consistantly inconsistant. I don't think the Reds would have gotten any more out of him after that 1-0 shutout of the Cubs as he would get now.

Matt700wlw
06-29-2007, 05:43 PM
He's a Boras client?

That should have been a red flag right there.

redsrule2500
06-30-2007, 02:13 PM
Doesn't he suck under pressure?

I don't think the pen would be a good idea...

Mario-Rijo
06-30-2007, 05:21 PM
People in the pen must throw strikes and that's part of his problem when isn't pitching well he is up there nibbling, gets himself into hitters counts and then gets hammered. The pen is no place for Lohse IMO, like others have mentioned he doesn't have the head for it.

Look at it this way if the Reds can somehow tighten up that defense on the days he pitches and continue to drill it in Lohse's head to throw strikes, he should come out of this season with an ERA of about 4.5 at worst. Gil Meche turned that into 55 Mill last offseason. That means we can offer him salary arbitration and knowing someone will give him a longer term contract offer of some kind he will likely turn arb. down. They take him off our hands which in turn gives us another draft pick ala Schoenweis, perhaps not as good a pick as Schoenweis but a pick all the same.

You put him in the pen where he doesn't wanna be you have no chance of him righting the ship due to his likely worsening attitude. If you keep him as a starter you have some glimmer of hope that he at least will give you an effort out there.

So unless somebody is willing to give you a Zach Ward type prospect or better prior to the deadline you keep him in the rotation and ride his but right into a draft pick.

Patrick Bateman
06-30-2007, 06:31 PM
If there's one thing Lohse does, it's throw strikes. That's undeniable.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2007, 06:38 PM
If there's one thing Lohse does, it's throw strikes. That's undeniable.

So does (did) Eric Milton

Patrick Bateman
06-30-2007, 07:03 PM
So does (did) Eric Milton

MR said if you are going to move to the bullpen than a batter must throw strikes. Then he went on to say that for that reason Lohse does not belong in the pen.

Say all you will about Lohse, but he can throw strikes. That's a fact. If you don't want him in the bullpen because of his flaws, then fine, but strike throwing is not a logical complaint for Lohse.

Mario-Rijo
06-30-2007, 10:57 PM
MR said if you are going to move to the bullpen than a batter must throw strikes. Then he went on to say that for that reason Lohse does not belong in the pen.

Say all you will about Lohse, but he can throw strikes. That's a fact. If you don't want him in the bullpen because of his flaws, then fine, but strike throwing is not a logical complaint for Lohse.

Maybe I should re-phrase that. He doesn't throw quality strikes. And like I said when he is going bad it's because he is trying to nibble and those usually end up not being strikes, he gets into hitters counts and has no chioice but to come to the hitters.

icehole3
07-01-2007, 09:53 AM
I remember Jeff Rantley in one his many rants, going off on Lohse saying his biggest problem is he's a quitter. I guess that means he gets in trouble (like a bad break or an error or 2) and he folds the tent.

Always Red
07-01-2007, 12:38 PM
I remember Jeff Rantley in one his many rants, going off on Lohse saying his biggest problem is he's a quitter. I guess that means he gets in trouble (like a bad break or an error or 2) and he folds the tent.

I wouldn't say he's a quitter, but I would agree that Lohse tends to crump under pressure. That's different than quitting.

His crumping under pressure is noggin-related, IMO. It's also probably the reason he wouldn't make a good closer (and it may be the main reason he doesn't want to be a relief pitcher?).

Today, Lohse is back on top of the world. I fully expect his manic-depressive swings to continue. Wayne should answer the phone if it rings today, and trade him to the Phils, should they ask...