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Puffy
06-25-2007, 11:24 AM
Alex Gonzalez's last walk was May 25. He has now gone exactly 100 at bats without a walk.

However, he has been hit by a pitch in that time (at around at bat 98 or 99), so wooooohoooooo!

RedsManRick
06-25-2007, 11:25 AM
I bet he has more productive outs than Adam Dunn though!

Falls City Beer
06-25-2007, 11:26 AM
You are what you is.

M2
06-25-2007, 11:38 AM
Gonzalez by month:

April - .329/.372/.519
May - .228/.285/.482
June - .236/.247/.375

The OB went and the SLG followed. What he does in the second half of the season is likely to be hideous.

flyer85
06-25-2007, 11:40 AM
Gonzalez by month:

April - .329/.372/.519
May - .228/.285/.482
June - .236/.247/.375

The OB went and the SLG followed. What he does in the second half of the season is likely to be hideous.... but he is a Gold Glove caliber SS. :p:

NJReds
06-25-2007, 11:43 AM
He also had more runs, RBI and extra base hits than Jose Reyes. Oh and five less walks. ;)

Ltlabner
06-25-2007, 11:45 AM
Yep, can't take a walk to save his life. However, for a guy predected to be a black hole at the plate, I'll take 12 homers, 16 doubles 1 triple and a .765 OPS all day long.

I'll also take his 1.199 OPS in 41 AB's against Pittsburg. The 1.666OPS in 15 AB's against St. Louis. And .771 OPS against Houston in 46 Ab's. For a "weak stick" that's pretty nifty production against division rivals.

Now, if he can get that hammy healed, his son over being deathly ill and figure out how to give it his all in the field when he's surrounded by a craptastic team, life would be a little nicer.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the course of the year. On the one hand, he gets the boost of being in GABP for 1/2 the games. OTOH, he's got a track record of leveling out over the season. Especially as the NL pitchers dial in on him.

registerthis
06-25-2007, 11:54 AM
Yep, can't take a walk to save his life. However, for a guy predected to be a black hole at the plate, I'll take 12 homers, 16 doubles 1 triple and a .765 OPS all day long.

Yep. We can't all be .900 OPS'ers.

Would be nice if he could get on base once in awhile, though. That .765 OPS could quickly become a .665 OPS if the power goes away.

edabbs44
06-25-2007, 11:56 AM
Gonzalez by month:

April - .329/.372/.519
May - .228/.285/.482
June - .236/.247/.375

The OB went and the SLG followed. What he does in the second half of the season is likely to be hideous.

Did you hear that? It's the sound of $14 million being flushed down the toilet. Man, there is a lot that could have been done with that money. Instead, Wayne decided to lockdown the SS position of the worst team in baseball. Nice work, once again.

MrCinatit
06-25-2007, 12:01 PM
With that kind of plate patience, it almost makes sense for him to be batting lead off.

Kc61
06-25-2007, 12:09 PM
Gonzalez by month:

April - .329/.372/.519
May - .228/.285/.482
June - .236/.247/.375

The OB went and the SLG followed. What he does in the second half of the season is likely to be hideous.

Is this the same calculus that folks used to predict that Hatteberg would have a bad 2007? I was going to write to Hatte in the off-season and suggest that he not show up this year, because Redszone predicted he would flame out.

Seriously, I think Gonzo is a very good ballplayer, not having his best year. Like most players, he fluctuates from month to month. But this guy is an upgrade at a key position, which he generally plays well defensively. He has done surprisingly well offensively, overall so far.

The Reds do have some very solid position players. But the pitching quality and usage is so fouled up that it is very hard to evaluate the team.

Not an accident that when Aaron Harang is on the mound, he wins a high percentage of his games with this team.

Johnny Footstool
06-25-2007, 12:26 PM
Is this the same calculus that folks used to predict that Hatteberg would have a bad 2007? I was going to write to Hatte in the off-season and suggest that he not show up this year, because Redszone predicted he would flame out.

Clearly not, because Hatteberg has always been able to take a walk. Hat's predicted decline stemmed more from his age and his decline for two seasons prior to coming to Cincinnati. Comparing Hatteberg to Gonzalez is an apples and oranges argument.


Seriously, I think Gonzo is a very good ballplayer, not having his best year. Like most players, he fluctuates from month to month. But this guy is an upgrade at a key position, which he generally plays well defensively. He has done surprisingly well offensively, overall so far.

Not overall. He did surprisingly well offensively for one month. His overall numbers are unsurprisingly mediocre.


The Reds do have some very solid position players. But the pitching quality and usage is so fouled up that it is very hard to evaluate the team.

Agreed. But I don't see how that pertains to Gonzo's failings at the plate since May.


Not an accident that when Aaron Harang is on the mound, he wins a high percentage of his games with this team.

This is an odd statement. Harang tied for the NL lead in wins last season, pitching in front of the likes of Felipe Lopez and "Rolls" Royce Clayton. So other than Harang being excellent, what does this statement relate to?

M2
06-25-2007, 12:35 PM
Is this the same calculus that folks used to predict that Hatteberg would have a bad 2007? I was going to write to Hatte in the off-season and suggest that he not show up this year, because Redszone predicted he would flame out.

Seriously, I think Gonzo is a very good ballplayer, not having his best year. Like most players, he fluctuates from month to month. But this guy is an upgrade at a key position, which he generally plays well defensively. He has done surprisingly well offensively, overall so far.

The Reds do have some very solid position players. But the pitching quality and usage is so fouled up that it is very hard to evaluate the team.

Not an accident that when Aaron Harang is on the mound, he wins a high percentage of his games with this team.

Actually, Gonzalez has been having his best year this season (in a horse race with his 2003 campaign), which undermines your whole "very good ballplayer" statement. We've seen his best, offensively speaking. He gets worse. We're just beginning to get to know Alex Gonzalez. He is NOT a very good ballplayer.

He's been a niche player, a defensively solid shortstop, though he's not having a particularly good season in that regard. He hasn't provided the defensive impact that was hoped for when he signed.

You can throw red herrings like Hatteberg and the pitching into the mix all you want, Gonzalez's out machine act is going to get tired.

Kc61
06-25-2007, 12:35 PM
The statement about Harang relates to the fact that nit-picking the position players is, IMO, unimportant when the pitching is so awful. The Reds are good enough to win when a high caliber pitcher is out there.

edabbs44
06-25-2007, 12:44 PM
The statement about Harang relates to the fact that nit-picking the position players is, IMO, unimportant when the pitching is so awful. The Reds are good enough to win when a high caliber pitcher is out there.

The Reds can't afford high caliber pitching, so they took the cheap route and went for an upgrade on defense. The result? The worst record in baseball.

Remember the laughter when Lilly, Meche and Marquis were signed?

NJReds
06-25-2007, 12:54 PM
Remember the laughter when Lilly, Meche and Marquis were signed?


I still wouldn't have signed either of those three to the contracts that they ultimately received.

Kc61
06-25-2007, 12:59 PM
And, by the way, the phrase "very good ballplayer" doesn't mean I think Gonzo is a star. I don't. A better phrase would be a "solid major league shortstop." Which I think he is.

I keep going back to Krivsky's statement at the winter meetings that Milton and Lohse were good 3 and 4 starters. And his constant tinkering with the bullpen personnel, which got worse (if possible) in 2007. And the manager's use of those pitchers, which is often questionable.

Milton, Arroyo, and Lohse are a combined 5 and 23, I believe.

So I just can't get too worked up about Gonzalez or, frankly, any of the performances of the starting 8 players.

registerthis
06-25-2007, 01:01 PM
Remember the laughter when Lilly, Meche and Marquis were signed?

The laughter wasn't due to the players, it was due to the money they were given. The same holds true today.

Johnny Footstool
06-25-2007, 01:02 PM
The laughter wasn't due to the players, it was due to the money they were given. The same holds true today.

Money comes and goes, though. It's a far more replaceable commodity than talent.

registerthis
06-25-2007, 01:02 PM
I still wouldn't have signed either of those three to the contracts that they ultimately received.

Marquis's contract isn't ridiculous, but his abysmal K rate would have him drawing Milton comparisons faster than you can say "moon shot".

registerthis
06-25-2007, 01:05 PM
Money comes and goes, though. It's a far more replaceable commodity than talent.

But it's a reality this team must deal with. I don't advocate saving money for the heck of it, i advocate it because this team does not have a limitless budget, and money spent in one area means less money spent in another area. Money may be replaceable, but the willingness to do so varies substantially from team to team.

Johnny Footstool
06-25-2007, 01:20 PM
But it's a reality this team must deal with. I don't advocate saving money for the heck of it, i advocate it because this team does not have a limitless budget, and money spent in one area means less money spent in another area. Money may be replaceable, but the willingness to do so varies substantially from team to team.

Wayne did spend a sizable amount of money this off season. He just didn't spend it well.

M2
06-25-2007, 01:22 PM
And, by the way, the phrase "very good ballplayer" doesn't mean I think Gonzo is a star. I don't. A better phrase would be a "solid major league shortstop." Which I think he is.

He's a regularly employed major league shortstop. So is Royce Clayton.

I'd take Jeter, Tejada, Guillen, Peralta, Cabrera, Betancourt, Young, Reyes, Rollins, Renteria, Ramirez, Hardy and Furcal and those are just the guys I'd prefer without even thinking about it.

There's another six or seven I'd rather have in front of Gonzalez as well (Greene, Vizquel, Tulowitski among them). So is Gonzalez is able to keep a job by being the 21st-25th best SS in the bigs? Yeah. Do I find that something worth getting excited about? No. Would I like to see the franchise find a taker for Gonzalez and seek someone better at SS? You bet.

I'm sympathetic to your argument about the pitching, I've been sick of it for far too many years. That said, the Reds offense is only pace for 750 runs and that's with them smacking a prodigious number of homers. Say Jr. gets injured or Dunn gets traded or the bats just cool off a little bit. Because of out machines like Gonzalez the team lacks the OB skills to survive a power outage.

In other words, the Reds have got no shortage of problems.

Kc61
06-25-2007, 01:32 PM
He's a regularly employed major league shortstop. So is Royce Clayton.


I'm sympathetic to your argument about the pitching, I've been sick of it for far too many years. That said, the Reds offense is only pace for 750 runs and that's with them smacking a prodigious number of homers. Say Jr. gets injured or Dunn gets traded or the bats just cool off a little bit. Because of out machines like Gonzalez the team lacks the OB skills to survive a power outage.

In other words, the Reds have got no shortage of problems.

Oh, I'm not happy with the offense. Yesterday was a prime example, failure to cash in on opportunities, scoring by solos homers. The hitting is virtually all left handed, the team can't hit lefties. The team has lots of slow players. The team has a low BA. Etc., etc.

But I've always believed that defense is the key to winning in all major pro sports. In baseball, that means pitching. And what the Reds are putting out on the mound overwhelms the other reasons for its poor record.

We disagree on Gonzo, to an extent, but I still think the team could win with him. I also think the power hitting outfielders could be adequately replaced by different kinds of offensive talent. But none of it will matter with this pitching.

Puffy
06-25-2007, 01:34 PM
Because of out machines like Gonzalez the team lacks the OB skills to survive a power outage.



And therein lies the problem of Krivsky's up the middle trio. Gonzalez, Phillips and Ross have to be hitting HR's or doubles to make things work. If the power ain't clicking then none of them walks nearly enough to compensate. And Phillips is clearly the cream of this crop, but even he needs to hit .280 to be considered an effective hitter.

Aronchis
06-25-2007, 01:40 PM
Wayne did spend a sizable amount of money this off season. He just didn't spend it well.

A "sizeable" amount? Hardly. Compared to other teams, that was a drop in the bucket.

Most of Cast's hope was spending enough to keep the team together and getting some repeat performances from key 06 contributers(Arroyo, Coffey and Ross). Krivsky then took some money and spread it out among vets who he hoped would compliment the "core". Then the central would be very weak again. Sadly, the Brewers didn't come to that party and the Reds are worse than expected.

I would argue that even before we look at Wayne's poorer moves, we must look at the Arroyo/Coffey collapse. Huge IMO and the reason why the Reds don't have a better record right now. If Arroyo and Coffey have much better second halves, the Reds record will probably improve(though players lost to trades could equalize that improvement).

Of course, Wayne extends his prize trade pickup before he collapses, ouch!!

Kc61
06-25-2007, 02:15 PM
A "sizeable" amount? Hardly. Compared to other teams, that was a drop in the bucket.

Most of Cast's hope was spending enough to keep the team together and getting some repeat performances from key 06 contributers(Arroyo, Coffey and Ross). Krivsky then took some money and spread it out among vets who he hoped would compliment the "core". Then the central would be very weak again. Sadly, the Brewers didn't come to that party and the Reds are worse than expected.

I would argue that even before we look at Wayne's poorer moves, we must look at the Arroyo/Coffey collapse. Huge IMO and the reason why the Reds don't have a better record right now. If Arroyo and Coffey have much better second halves, the Reds record will probably improve(though players lost to trades could equalize that improvement).

Of course, Wayne extends his prize trade pickup before he collapses, ouch!!

I would add Bray's injury. Coming into the season, Coffey/Bray presumably were slated to pitch many relief innings. That failure has really hurt the ballclub, along with the Arroyo performance and the (probably not unexpected) Lohse performance. Arroyo, Lohse, Coffey, Bray.

RedEye
06-25-2007, 03:06 PM
Seriously, I think Gonzo is a very good ballplayer, not having his best year. Like most players, he fluctuates from month to month. But this guy is an upgrade at a key position, which he generally plays well defensively. He has done surprisingly well offensively, overall so far.


Actually, I think Gonzo is a bad ballplayer having a very good year by his offensive standards. His career OBP coming into this year was .298, and he's right on par with that. His career best was 23 HR, so the best case scenario for 2007 was probably low OBP with a bit of pop at the SS position. That's exactly what we're getting right now, so we should be happy. The defense, unfortunately, has look Claytonesque. Given that we probably won't be getting a mulligan on Wayne's decision to sign him in the first place, I think we should be reluctantly happy at this point. It's not Wayne's worst decision at least...

mth123
06-25-2007, 03:08 PM
The statement about Harang relates to the fact that nit-picking the position players is, IMO, unimportant when the pitching is so awful. The Reds are good enough to win when a high caliber pitcher is out there.

But to upgrade the pitching, resources need to be guarded in other areas. The entire argument concerning Gonzalez IMO is that his production (other than his early hot streak) and defense could be replicated by a cheaper journeyman type leaving more money to upgrade the pitching.

Gonzalez in and of himself is not what is wrong with this team, but the dollars thrown his way could have been spent elsewhere making the team a better team overall. Some would prefer we dump our most productive player to free those resources, I personally think that route should be a secondary plan with less money wasted in other less impactful areas the first choice to free spending money for the pitching staff.

The logic is simple, if a cheaper replacement can be had that provides similar production, go that route and save the difference for pitching. Gonzalez production and defense can be replaced by a number of journeyman options. Same argument applies to Conine, Stanton, Lohse etc.

RedEye
06-25-2007, 04:00 PM
But to upgrade the pitching, resources need to be guarded in other areas. The entire argument concerning Gonzalez IMO is that his production (other than his early hot streak) and defense could be replicated by a cheaper journeyman type leaving more money to upgrade the pitching.

Gonzalez in and of himself is not what is wrong with this team, but the dollars thrown his way could have been spent elsewhere making the team a better team overall. Some would prefer we dump our most productive player to free those resources, I personally think that route should be a secondary plan with less money wasted in other less impactful areas the first choice to free spending money for the pitching staff.

The logic is simple, if a cheaper replacement can be had that provides similar production, go that route and save the difference for pitching. Gonzalez production and defense can be replaced by a number of journeyman options. Same argument applies to Conine, Stanton, Lohse etc.

I couldn't agree more with this. Good post.

Aronchis
06-25-2007, 04:04 PM
or the cheaper player doesn't provide the same production and is actually worse. If you want to win now, that usually doesn't cut it and the lack of money forces you to look at lesser products. It would have been wiser to save the money and just throw it into a draft pick or a foriegn player with a big upside.

Ltlabner
06-25-2007, 04:16 PM
The logic is simple, if a cheaper replacement can be had that provides similar production, go that route and save the difference for pitching. Gonzalez production and defense can be replaced by a number of journeyman options. Same argument applies to Conine, Stanton, Lohse etc.

Somehow I doubt if they plugged in any ole journyman that the RZ collective would praise the move. More likely, we'd be barraged with groans of "the FO is cheep", "BCast isn't willing to spend money" and "they aren't serrious about winning".

I'll take my chances with Gonzo over a Ray Olmedo/Anderson Machado type any day of the week. Toss in a tweeked hammy, serriously ill kid and being surrounded by misery and I'm not going to hammer the guy for mistakes in the field. Especially when he's offset them with some output at the plate.