Reds Fire Narron, Name Mackanin Interm Manager

[reds44]

Sources have told me Jerry Narron has been fired, Pete Mackanin will be the interim manager. More to come.

-Trent

It's about time.

[boognish]

If true, what purpose is served at this point?

The season is lost, and he should be forced to endure this debacle like the rest of us...with a puppetmaster dictating how young players are to be utilized.

[Chi-Town Red]

and the complete spiral has begun

[Screwball]

Pete Mackanin, Pete Mackanin...



Who?

[captainmorgan07]

mackanin hasn't managed since he was the interim managers for the pirates a few years ago. He has been an advanced scout in the reds system this year.

[boognish]

and the complete spiral has begun

I think begun is the wrong verb...this team has been circling the drain for weeks.

[rotnoid]

I wonder if this is all somehow related to the Hargrove move. Maybe the Reds have a guy in mind and are afraid the M's are going to go after him.

[Degenerate39]

Get Oester!

[reds44]

Narron had to go. I no nothing about Mackanin, but Narron had to go.

This should have been done about a month ago too.

The way he handled the pitching staff (especially Arroyo) was borderline comical.

He lost the clubhouse after the Edwin fiasco.

[reds44]

Pete Mackanin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Peter Mackanin, Jr. (born August 1, 1951 in Chicago, Illinois) is a former Major League Baseball player and current coach.

Mackanin was drafted by the Washington Senators in the 1969 Major League Baseball Draft and made his debut with them in 1973, after they'd moved and become the Texas Rangers. In a 9-year career, he also played for the Montréal Expos, Philadelphia Phillies, and Minnesota Twins. In 548 games, he had a batting average of .226, 355 hits, 30 home runs, and 141 RBI.

After retiring as a player, Mackanin spent many years managing and coaching in the minor leagues. He became the Expos' Third Base Coach in 1997 and spent four years in that position. After returning to minor league managing for two years, he became Bench Coach for the Pittsburgh Pirates for the 2003 season. He served as interim Manager of the Pirates for the last month of the 2005 season, leading the team to a 12-14 record. He is currently the Advance Scout for the Cincinnati Reds.

He is a graduate of Brother Rice High School in Chicago.

[Degenerate39]

Where did you find this info at? I cant find it any where

[Chi-Town Red]

He is a graduate of Brother Rice High School in Chicago.
i like him already

[boognish]

He lost the clubhouse after the Edwin fiasco.

I don't think this is accurate. How do you know?

It's feasible that the double-standard applied to Phillips and later Hamilton regarding the situation lost him points, but to say he lost the clubhouse for benching a player after (ostensibly) for not running out a ball? That's pretty far-fetched..

[reds44]

Where did you find this info at? I cant find it any where
That he was fired?
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

I got the Mackanin info off the ORG, by way of wikipedia.

[reds44]

I don't think this is accurate. How do you know?

It's feasible that the double-standard applied to Phillips and later Hamilton regarding the situation lost him points, but to say he lost the clubhouse for benching a player after (ostensibly) for not running out a ball? That's pretty far-fetched..
Fay has written it multiple times.

[rotnoid]

I don't think this is accurate. How do you know?

It's feasible that the double-standard applied to Phillips and later Hamilton regarding the situation lost him points, but to say he lost the clubhouse for benching a player after (ostensibly) for not running out a ball? That's pretty far-fetched..

The label "player's manager" leads me to believe he never really had the clubhouse to begin with. There's obviously been trouble for some time and it's been getting progressively worse. I mean, some guys on this team appear to have just quit.

[boognish]

It's also interesting that the hire came from advance scouting. Several posters on this forum have given anecdotal evidence suggesting the Reds' advance scouting is awful--and I am inclined to agree based on what little I have seen.

[jmble]

The info on Narron being fired is on Trent Rosencranz's blog on cincinnati.com. Right now that's the only place it's being reported.

I think the decision of interim coach is a great one. Not because of who it is, but because of who it's not. I've been having nightmares about Bucky Dent becoming interim manager and doing just well enough to get the shot at the job next year. This move looks to me like they will be performing an outside search to bring somebody good in here. My hope is Girardi. I know some of you love that idea and some of you hate that idea, but at least we are going to get something different.

[jnwohio]

Pete Mackanin, Pete Mackanin...



Who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Mackanin

Currently the Reds advance scout.

[boognish]

Fay has written it multiple times.

I'll remember your glib reply the next time you rip Fay, who conjures plenty of stories out of thin air.

I side more with rotnoid's take that Narron may never have "had the clubhouse" anyway, as "having the clubhouse" is a nebulous concept to begin with.

[reds44]

I'll remember your glib reply the next time you rip Fay, who conjures plenty of stories out of thin air.

I side more with rotnoid's take that Narron may never have "had the clubhouse" anyway, as "having the clubhouse" is a nebulous concept to begin with.
I don't remembering ripping Fay. Trent has written it to.

You don't think players quit on a manager?

[reds44]

Mackanin was 12-14 as the interm manager of the Pirates.

[spartcock77]

Thank you it has finally happened, lets hope we can get Girardi, another candidate that i think we should take a look at at the end of the year is Terry Pendelton, the braves hitting coach who some think may takeover for Cox when he retires, but we should at least give it a shot

[captainmorgan07]

the next big question is are there any other coaches on the staff being shown the door and given their walking papers. If it were me i'd send dick pole and tom hume right with narron.

[boognish]

I don't remembering ripping Fay. Trent has written it to.

You don't think players quit on a manager?

Sorry, I did not mean to accuse you of doing so; it's a matter of course on this site, and I think, myself, that Fay is more than a little enamored with his own pseudo-celebrity.

As far as "quitting on a manager," players can definitely lose respect for one, but the veteran players seem to be performing to their abilities...I don't think there is any tangible effect. Are Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey--I chose them as the longest-tenured Reds--going to perform at higher than their current All-Star caliber level? I don't really see what you are getting at. The bullpen has been musical chairs all season, and I doubt Ricky Stone, Brad Salmon, Marcus McBeth, or any of the newcomers looked at Encarnacion's benching from before they were on the club and became disenfranchised with Narron.

Just my opinion.

[reds44]

I wonder what happens to Hamilton's babysitter, Johnny Narron, now.

[reds44]

Fron the Reds:



CINCINNATI - At a press conference at noon Monday at Great American Ball Park, Cincinnati Reds president and chief executive officer Bob Castellini and executive vice president and general manager Wayne Krivsky will announce Pete Mackanin as interim field manager for the remainder of the 2007 season.



Mackanin, 55, will replace Jerry Narron, whose Reds teams went 31-51 (.378) this season and 157-179 (.467) overall.



The club will have no comment until tomorrow's press conference in the field level interview room.



Mackanin (pronounced mah-CAN-in) will be introduced Tuesday at 4:00 p.m. in the field level interview room as the 59th manager in Reds history, the 49th since 1900.



He previously was in the organization from 1990-92, when he managed Class AAA Nashville in the American Association, and he rejoined the Reds in February 2006 as the Major League club's advance scout.



It will be Mackanin's second stint as an interim manager in the Major Leagues. In 2005 he managed the final 26 games for the Pittsburgh Pirates, who went 55-81 under Lloyd McClendon.

He spent 7 seasons on the Major League coaching staffs of the Montreal Expos (third base coach, 1997-2000) and Pirates (bench coach, 2003-05) and has 21 seasons of managerial experience in the minor leagues and winter leagues.

Mackanin managed in the minors for 13 years and produced 917 victories and league championships in 1995 (Ottawa, International League) and 2002 (Lynchburg, Carolina league). For 8 seasons he skippered winter ball clubs in Venezuela, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico. In 1988, he led Aguilas del Zulia to Venezuelan League and Caribbean Series championships.

An infielder, Mackanin was selected by the Washington Senators in the fourth round of the June 1969 free-agent draft. In 9 Major League seasons he appeared in 548 games for the Texas Rangers, Expos, Philadelphia Phillies and Minnesota Twins.

He will wear uniform number 46.

[keeganbrick]

Sorry Hatch, I was rooting for ya.

[kbrake]

I was excited when Boone was sent packing. I was excited when Miley was sent packing. This time its just hard to get as excited. I mean dont get me wrong Narron had to go, but its just hard to believe this really means anything. And I guess this move by itself doesnt mean anything. It might be a start, but a very small start.

[Redskinalum02]

The real question remains:

Is Pete a "Baseball Guy"...or at least does he consider himself a "Baseball Guy"?

[reds44]

I don't get it. People have been calling for Narron's head for months now, and when it happens it just a ho-hum whatever attitude.

Mark me down as someone who was very pleased with this move.

[Redskinalum02]

I am pleased as well. There's nothing wrong with hiring an interim mgr in the midst of a lost season. Pete can just take the Reds to offseason where WK & BCast can get their real guy. I like the move.

[ED44]

I really thought they would hand it over to Dent...and I am happy they didn't. This means we may actually go with an actual SEARCH in the offseason, rather than Dent being successful for the remainder of this season...get an extension...and have the same mess next year. I like this move...A LOT.

[Degenerate39]

I don't get it. People have been calling for Narron's head for months now, and when it happens it just a ho-hum whatever attitude.

Mark me down as someone who was very pleased with this move.

I'd like to be marked down as well. Narron wasn't cutting it.

[757690]

While Narron wasn't as bad a manager as most posters made him out to be, he simply was not a good one. The best test of a manager is his team's bullpen and defense. Good managers, Sparky, Weaver, Cox, LaRussa, Leland, Herzog...they always had decent bullpens and strong defenses. It is no coincidence. They know how to best use whatever players they have. Narron simply failed on both counts.
There are plenty of good managers out there, mostly coaches on other teams, Terry Pendelton, Jerry Manuel, Tony Pena, Kirk Gibson, too many to name. Cast has shown a desire to get the best person possible, at least with Wayne and the Broadcasting crew, so there is reason to be confident. I just hope that Mackanin doesn't get off to a fast start and they hire him withour looking around. They made that mistake with Narron, hopefully they will learn.

[muethibp]

Narron was a horrendous manager. I am glad he's gone. That said, he was victimized by the bullpen this year and it's hard to believe things will change and it's also hard not to feel just a little sorry for him...as sorry as you can feel for a guy that will be paid for not working for the next 15 months.

[Screwball]

I don't get it. People have been calling for Narron's head for months now, and when it happens it just a ho-hum whatever attitude.

Mark me down as someone who was very pleased with this move.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I think most people realize that with a bullpen this young/inexperienced (McBeth, Cooter, Salmon) and a starting staff this inconsistent (Lohse, Arroyo, Belisle), it doesn't really matter much who the manager is -- the Reds will still find ways to lose.

Personally, as long as Mackanin doesn't mess up the arms of Harang, Arroyo, or any of the young guys in the pen, then I'll be happy. (Talk about setting your standards low...:help:)

[CRedsLarkin11]

I guess the reason I'm "ho-hum" is because I want them to make a real effort this offseason to find a real manager. If they do that, I'll be happy. This is a good step in the right direction though. This had to be done

[reds44]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I think most people realize that with a bullpen this young/inexperienced (McBeth, Cooter, Salmon) and a starting staff this inconsistent (Lohse, Arroyo, Belisle), it doesn't really matter much who the manager is -- the Reds will still find ways to lose.

Personally, as long as Mackanin doesn't mess up the arms of Harang, Arroyo, or any of the young guys in the pen, then I'll be happy. (Talk about setting your standards low...:help:)
See, I disagree with that. There is no way anybody will convinve me this team in 31-51 bad. Never. Narron has done so much stupid stuff in his time here that it was becoming painful to watch. Having Ramirez pitch an innings of relief, then start the next day, pinch hitting Juan Castro for Hamilton, walking Daryl Ward to get to Alfonso Soriano, abusing the arms of Arroyo and Harang, the mismanagement of Arroyo, the Edwin fiasco last year, the Edwin fiasco this year, the constant tinkering of lineups, and the list goes on and on and on. Narron does not know how to use a bullpen. He uses guys night after night after night, and thinks because they don't pitch full innings their arms are rested.

This team is underachieving, alot.

[reds44]

Also, it seems as if people are lumping Wayne/BCast with the guys before them. We have yet to see Wayne hire a manager, so how do we think we know what he is going to do?

[BLEEDS]

Ho-Hum? This was INEVITABLE for a guy to take a Practically .500 team from a year ago and MISMANAGE them to the worst record in Baseball.

Sure we Over-Achieved BIG TIME last year, but his Continuous Lineup Shuffling, putting guys like Dunn 6th or Lower, RIDICULOUSLY putting lineups L-R-L-R-L to avoid "late inning mis-matches", and WORST Off all his Choices with the PITCHING STAFF. I think a Blind Monkey and an etch-a-sketch could have done better management of our SP and Bullpen call-ups.

ALSO, this should end the RIDICULOUS reliance and USE of Juan Castro. He can now burn those naked pictures of Narron and a Goat that he's been hanging over his head to get him in the lineup - UNLESS WK is being blackmailed too.

GOOD RIDDANCE!!! I say. Get a REAL manager in here, and get some REAL PITCHERS on this staff, and we can use the #4 Offense in the NL to get us to the playoffs next year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[jimbo]

See, I disagree with that. There is no way anybody will convinve me this team in 31-51 bad. Never. Narron has done so much stupid stuff in his time here that it was becoming painful to watch. Having Ramirez pitch an innings of relief, then start the next day, pinch hitting Juan Castro for Hamilton, walking Daryl Ward to get to Alfonso Soriano, abusing the arms of Arroyo and Harang, the mismanagement of Arroyo, the Edwin fiasco last year, the Edwin fiasco this year, the constant tinkering of lineups, and the list goes on and on and on. Narron does not know how to use a bullpen. He uses guys night after night after night, and thinks because they don't pitch full innings their arms are rested.

This team is underachieving, alot.

All of what you are saying is a matter of opinion. I personally think accusing him of "abusing" pitcher's arms is kind of ridiculous. Why is it all of the sudden fans think these players need babied? And you can call it a fiasco all you want, but EE has been a different player since that "fiasco."

I personally don't like to celebrate anyone losing their job. Narron has gotten bashed constantly on this board and is now the scapegoat, but he was a very small part of the problem. This team sucked with Narron, and still sucks. This change does nothing. It'll be interesting to see how long it will take for fans to start turning on Mackanin.

[HokieRed]

All this stuff about losing the team's confidence etc. seems to me nonsense. Might be true but the reason Narron got fired is that somebody had to take the fall for the Reds' failure, and Castellini isn't yet ready to conclude that it was his guy, Krivsky, who is responsible--however obvious that is.

[Screwball]

See, I disagree with that. There is no way anybody will convinve me this team in 31-51 bad. Never. Narron has done so much stupid stuff in his time here that it was becoming painful to watch. Having Ramirez pitch an innings of relief, then start the next day, pinch hitting Juan Castro for Hamilton, walking Daryl Ward to get to Alfonso Soriano, abusing the arms of Arroyo and Harang, the mismanagement of Arroyo, the Edwin fiasco last year, the Edwin fiasco this year, the constant tinkering of lineups, and the list goes on and on and on. Narron does not know how to use a bullpen. He uses guys night after night after night, and thinks because they don't pitch full innings their arms are rested.

This team is underachieving, alot.

I think you're missing the point. Did Jerry Narron make some indefensible moves? Of course. Did he cause the team to lose a couple games they would have otherwise won? Probably.

But the problem is hiring a new manager doesn't change the talent level of the pitching staff. With a wildly inconsistent rotation and largely ineffective bullpen, the Reds will still lose more often than not. Is 35-47 really all that different from 31-51? Nothing much changes, except if they win a little bit more they'll end up missing the playoffs with a worse draft pick to show for it.

Basically, I'm glad to see that Narron won't be around to potentially damage any of our pitchers' arms. Beyond that, I really don't see the joy that you do.

[Degenerate39]

I wonder how Mackanin is going to use Castro and the Mole?

[goreds2]

I just heard about the firing on WLW. A good move and hopefully we can at least play .500 ball the rest of the season. :eek:

Best of luck to Narron but he was not the right fit here. :(

[Screwball]

I wonder how Mackanin is going to use Castro


Hopefully as a late inning PH specialist for some rookie. :cool:

[durl]

After Narron took over for Miley in 2005 the Reds went .500 for the rest of the season. In 2006, Narron led the Reds to their best season since 2000. He did some good things here.

I don't feel one way or another about Narron's firing. We knew "something" had to happen and usually the manager takes the fall even though it's not all his fault. I just hope the team makes a turnaround and plays better for the rest of the season. Our bullpen needs serious improvement before this team can win, regardless of who manages.

[adampad]

I'm not upset to see Narron go. But what about his brother? Isn't he still Hamiltons handler?

[reds44]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...v=st&type=lgns

A source told PA SportsTicker that Joe Girardi, the 2006 National League Manager of the Year with the Florida Marlins, twice interviewed for the Reds job this past week but turned the position down because he would have had to retain some of the current coaching staff.

Girardi also turned down the Baltimore job after Perlozzo was fired.

[goreds2]

Today (before the firing), Marty and Thom mentioned that LaRussa may not manage the Cards next season. His contract is up.

:redszone:

[boognish]

Today (before the firing), Marty and Thom mentioned that LaRussa may not manage the Cards next season. His contract is up.

I have fundamental problems with LaRussa's micromanaging ways, but it would be worth bringing him in to see the fireworks from the WLW broadcast booth as a by-product of Franchester's enmity...

This team needs an overhaul, and the next 60 days (to include waiver trade deadline) should be telling one way or another as to whether this FO has what it takes.

[jnwohio]

When all is said and done Narron's failure is the lack of finding a way to turn around even a few of all the close games the Reds have lost. Yep the bullpen sucks big time. Yep the offense is inconsistent. But when a team is so close so often and can't win even 40% let alone 50% of its games, you have to question what kind of contribution you are getting from the Mgr.

I was around back in the early 1980's and let me tell you those teams were bad in ways that would make the current bunch look like champions. The teams of 96-98 were bad in ways this team is not. Yet the bottom line says this team may be the worst of all of them. Still, those teams of other years just plain did not have the talent to even stay in games. The games were usually settled by the half way point. However, this team has the ability to often lead or be even right down to the end but then invariably loses. I got to think effective leadship would find a way to have at least had this team at .400 to .450. Not world beaters but right in there with the mediocre NL Central pack.

I do believe the way Harang and Arroyo were used coming off those back to back marathon efforts in SanDiego was what dropped this team from just so so to truly bad. After his start, Harang was away from the team on bereavement. The day following his next scheduled turn was an off day. They could have left him on bereavement, used a starter from AAA on his scheduled day, and gotten two extra days of rest for both Harang and Arroyo. But instead they brought Harang back on regular rest and he was roughed up. Then they brought Arroyo back in the next game with the same results. It took Harang about 3 starts to begin to recover his form; and Arroyo needed twice that. I don't necessarily fault the management for leaving them both in so long in SanDiego to try and oull a win out there. I do fault the management for not realizing the wear it had out on them and not using the perfect oppurtunity to get them both 2 extra days of rest before their next start.

[Degenerate39]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...v=st&type=lgns

A source told PA SportsTicker that Joe Girardi, the 2006 National League Manager of the Year with the Florida Marlins, twice interviewed for the Reds job this past week but turned the position down because he would have had to retain some of the current coaching staff.

Girardi also turned down the Baltimore job after Perlozzo was fired.

Get new coaching if that's what Girardi wants

[Screwball]

When all is said and done Narron's failure is the lack of finding a way to turn around even a few of all the close games the Reds have lost. Yep the bullpen sucks big time. Yep the offense is inconsistent. But when a team is so close so often and can't win even 40% let alone 50% of its games, you have to question what kind of contribution you are getting from the Mgr.


Very good point, jnw. I saw a statistic a couple of days ago (can't remember where, RedReporter maybe?) that said of the Reds' 50 losses, they had the lead in the 5th inning or later in 28 of them. While that stat screams out poor pitching <cough> BULLPEN <cough>, it also reflects back on the guy in charge, i.e., Jerry Narron.

While I still maintain the team's pitching (or lack thereof) will have them mired in their losing ways in the 2nd half, it most likely won't be as drastic with a new skipper at the helm. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how Pete does.

[sig]

finally. Glad to see Narron go. I had to watch him in Texas and cringed when the Reds broiught him on. He is a horrible game manager.

I don't think Girardi will take the job.

Just a couple of off the wall names that might be good hires. Trey Hillman has been an excellent manager in Japan. Won the title there last year. He had a lot of support for the Ranger job but it went to Ron Washington. Mistake, IMO.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Trey_Hillman

I also like Orel Hershiser who I believe (not sure) was a recent candidate for the Dodger job. I realize there almost no chance he even gets interviewed for the job.

[BigRedVA]

It's about time!

[HokieRed]

If the Girardi story is true, that's really unfortunate. Whose decision would that be within the org--K's?

[George Foster]

Narron had to go. I no nothing about Mackanin, but Narron had to go.

This should have been done about a month ago too.

The way he handled the pitching staff (especially Arroyo) was borderline comical.

He lost the clubhouse after the Edwin fiasco.

He lost me last year during the Cardnials series when in a tie game, bottom of the 9th, man on 1st and 2nd, no outs....he intentionally walks Pujols. Why?

He only has a 33% chance to get a hit. It made zero sense. the next batter put the ball in play with the bases loaded and the Cards won.

Pujols had a 67% chance to make an out. You throw a ground ball the next batter and you get out of the inning. YOU NEVER PUT THE WINNING RUN ON THIRD WITH NO OUTS ON PURPOSE. It will go down in my book as the worst move in Narron's managing career.

[reds44]

Narron on getitng the boot:



Jerry Narron, always the Southern gentleman, returned my call a few minutes ago. He was upbeat. Part of baseball like is getting fired. Here's what he said:

"As a baseball person, I appreciated the chance to manage the Cincinnati Reds. I can't tell you how much that meant to me. It's a great organization, it's a great city. The fans are great.

"I'm sorry our about record. I've said we're close to being a good ballclub. We were in every game. I'm disappointed we don't have a better record. I appreciate the effort of the players. They did not quit in the least bit. They battled when we'd get down. They never gave up."

"I appreciate the opportunity that Bob Castellini and Tom and Joe Williams gave me. They've been nothing be great to me."

Narron met with Wayne Krvisky after the game Sunday, and then with Bob Castellini.

"It's a critical period for the Reds -- the next six months," Narron said. "I hope Wayne Krivsky can get the job done. This club could go from worst to first. The nucleus is there. It just needs a little tweaking."

Narron said he'll eventually return home to North Carolina.

"I enjoyed my time here," he said. "I love the town. It's a great baseball town. I appreciate the support I've gotten from the fans."


Narron's brother, Johnny, is the club's video coordinator. Will he stay on?

"That's up to Johnny and Mr. Castellini," Narron said. "In no way, shape or form was he hired because he's my brother. He's one of the hardest workers we've got. I appreciate the effort of everyone on the coaching. I hope me getting fired doesn't affect them."

-fay

[AmarilloRed]

I believe it was time for him to go. He was awful with the constantly changing lineups, and he overused the starting pitchers. Hopefully, a new manager will have the team playing close to .500 in the second half. I know nothing about Macanin, but hopefully he will be a good caretaker manager for the rest of this year.

[ChatterRed]

The only thing left in this season that matters is what happens by the trading deadline.

We are already looking at next year. A new manager, hopefully a new bullpen, and a righthanded power bat.

[standerson]

Get Oester!

There you go. But will it happen?

[nate]

Ho-Hum? This was INEVITABLE for a guy to take a Practically .500 team from a year ago and MISMANAGE them to the worst record in Baseball.

Sure we Over-Achieved BIG TIME last year, but his Continuous Lineup Shuffling, putting guys like Dunn 6th or Lower, RIDICULOUSLY putting lineups L-R-L-R-L to avoid "late inning mis-matches", and WORST Off all his Choices with the PITCHING STAFF. I think a Blind Monkey and an etch-a-sketch could have done better management of our SP and Bullpen call-ups.

ALSO, this should end the RIDICULOUS reliance and USE of Juan Castro. He can now burn those naked pictures of Narron and a Goat that he's been hanging over his head to get him in the lineup - UNLESS WK is being blackmailed too.

GOOD RIDDANCE!!! I say. Get a REAL manager in here, and get some REAL PITCHERS on this staff, and we can use the #4 Offense in the NL to get us to the playoffs next year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Sparky Anderson "might" have this team on the top step but we'd still be in the cellar. The amount that Jerry was the problem on this team was so small that it should've been burried in the noise floor of one's "problemometer".

Pitching, yes, we need it and we need it badly. Bullpen, a solid starter, absolutely. The field manager, man give any one of Bob Boone, Dave Miley or Jerry Narron a league average pitching staff and one might be talking about them in same revered (on Baseball Tonight) breath as Terry Francona and Joe Girardi.

[Moosie52]

Did anyone think Narron was a long term piece of this puzzle?

[durl]

The drumbeat of "abusing pitchers" continues on here. I just don't get it. That's just grasping at straws in my opinion. Someone has to pitch the game and Narron got bashed if the starters stayed in past 100 pitches and he got bashed if he went to the bullpen before they hit 100.

If the starters can't throw for strikes and therefore pitch more efficiently <cough...HOMER>, causing the bullpen to be used earlier, that's not Narron's fault. In the same way, if relievers can't keep opponents from scoring 4-5-6 runs in a game, that's not as much the manager's fault as people may wish.

Narron took the fall. For better or worse, something has been done. But I doubt even the exhalted Girardi could make this bullpen better by his mere presence.

[Screwball]

The drumbeat of "abusing pitchers" continues on here. I just don't get it. That's just grasping at straws in my opinion. Someone has to pitch the game and Narron got bashed if the starters stayed in past 100 pitches and he got bashed if he went to the bullpen before they hit 100.

If the starters can't throw for strikes and therefore pitch more efficiently <cough...HOMER>, causing the bullpen to be used earlier, that's not Narron's fault. In the same way, if relievers can't keep opponents from scoring 4-5-6 runs in a game, that's not as much the manager's fault as people may wish.

Narron took the fall. For better or worse, something has been done. But I doubt even the exhalted Girardi could make this bullpen better by his mere presence.

While that my be true at times, there were several instances in which Narron's really rode his horses (i.e. Harang and Arroyo) too hard. They were both at or near the top in IP last year, and Narron continued to ride them hard this year. I saw a stat that said Harang is 2nd in the NL in pitches per game (108, second to only C. Zambrano) this year, and we all saw the effects of Arroyo's tired arm (lost velocity, breaking balls lost command and sharpness). Thank God Harang is an absolute beast and he hasn't had a nasty 4-5 game stretch like Arroyo had.

There's also the fact that JN seemed to ride the hot hand in the bullpen. One guy has a good outing, and Narron will use him everyday for 4 days straight, or 5 out of 6, or at least warm him up in 'pen everyday, etc. etc. It's only July and I start wondering if some of the arms in the bullpen are going to start falling off.

Now while I realize this is in part because the bullpen he had to work with has been so awful Narron hasn't had much choice, but he certainly didn't help things. He was setting a scary precedent with Homer, IMO. He's going to start pitching well again, and I really don't want to see him going 114+ pitches anymore in this lost season.

[reds44]

I just spoke with Steve Mandell, Joe Girardi's agent. He would not comment on the report that Girardi had interviewed with the Reds.

"As you know he's broadcasting with Fox and the Yankees," Mandall said. "There's a lot of speculation out there. It's not relevant."

Would Girardi be interested down the line?

"If the opportunity presents itself, he'd look at his options," Mandell said.

Girardi is the hot name. But three guys with World Series rings as managers -- Bob Brenly, Tony LaRussa and Ozzie Guillen -- figure to be available after the season. Joe Torre could be on the list as well.

I don't think money will be a problem as far as Bob Castellini is concerned when hiring a manager.

-Fay

Ozzie would be awesome in Cincinnati. I would sign up for that in a heartbeat. It won't happen though.

[IamWallaman]

-Fay

Ozzie would be awesome in Cincinnati. I would sign up for that in a heartbeat. It won't happen though.

Not keen on Ozzie... or LaRussa (I'd feel like a tool watching the Reds if he were hired)

...but I could see BCast really pushing for the Cardinal connection, including Jock.

Just... wow...

[reds44]

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=cin

Press conference video.

[AmarilloRed]

The drumbeat of "abusing pitchers" continues on here. I just don't get it. That's just grasping at straws in my opinion. Someone has to pitch the game and Narron got bashed if the starters stayed in past 100 pitches and he got bashed if he went to the bullpen before they hit 100.

If the starters can't throw for strikes and therefore pitch more efficiently <cough...HOMER>, causing the bullpen to be used earlier, that's not Narron's fault. In the same way, if relievers can't keep opponents from scoring 4-5-6 runs in a game, that's not as much the manager's fault as people may wish.

Narron took the fall. For better or worse, something has been done. But I doubt even the exhalted Girardi could make this bullpen better by his mere presence.

Narron kept the starting pitchers in too long. A pitcher like Aaron Harang can do it, but he ruined Arroyo's arm for this year, and maybe his career. We all know the bullpen would have been terrible regardless of Narron. He didn't just have them at 100 pitches. He would often have Harang and Arroyo at 120-130 pitches. He did abuse the starting pitchers, and he should have been fired for it.

[Red Daddy]

I just can't throw all the blame on Jerry. This team is simply not very good. Hatteburg is our leadoff hitter for goodness sake. He's a 37 year old, slow, first baseman. The whole bullpen has been sorry except for Weathers.

Narron didn't bring in Sarloos, Bray, Mewjeski, or Lohse. Freel getting hurt was not Narron's doing.

I would like a new direction, but I can't say I'm glad this happened. Sparky, Lou Pinella, Joe Torre, and Billy Martin couldn't fix this train wreck.

[durl]

Narron kept the starting pitchers in too long. A pitcher like Aaron Harang can do it, but he ruined Arroyo's arm for this year, and maybe his career. We all know the bullpen would have been terrible regardless of Narron. He didn't just have them at 100 pitches. He would often have Harang and Arroyo at 120-130 pitches. He did abuse the starting pitchers, and he should have been fired for it.

I seriously doubt Arroyo's career in baseball is over because of a couple of long outings.

You're actually pointing out Narron's predicament quite well. He could leave starters in for what many to see as too long and get ripped by fans, or he can go to the bullpen, let them blow the game (and the win for the starter) and get ripped by fans.

I realize a new manager may come in and turn this bullpen around. I'll just be shocked if it actually happens. I've been of the mindset that throwing money at the problem won't make it go away but Castellini MUST open up the checkbook a little bit more and bring in some reliable guys into the bullpen instead of forcing Krivsky to shop in the bargain bin all the time.

[reds44]

From the DDN:


"I was told after the game," Narron said, adding that he was talking only to the Daily News and no other media. "They said they were going to try something different."

Narron, a lifetime baseball man with a passion for the game, is leaving with sadness but not with anger.

"It was very disappointing because I know this ball club can be very, very competitive," Narron added. "We were in nearly every game, we just couldn't seem to get it done. In that last month, we were given no chance to get better."

[reds44]

Some stuff from Trent concerning Hamilton and the other Narron.



Talked to Johnny Narron he said, 'as far as I know, my postition hasn't changed.' Despite how close he is with his brother, Johnny wants to continue to work for and with the Reds.

Said Josh Hamilton: 'as long as I'm here, Johnny's going to be here'

[Degenerate39]

Some stuff from Trent concerning Hamilton and the other Narron.

Good to know Hamiltons baby siter is still here

[reds44]

Stark and scouts on Reds

I'd been hearing scouts talk for several weeks about the lethargy that pervaded almost everyone on the field not named Ryan Freel or Scott Hatteberg. They weren't kidding.

"They weren't playing hard for him," one scout said of Narron. "They were comfortable with him -- too comfortable. Jerry is such a nice guy, I think they kind of took advantage of him."

"It's incredible to me the guys on that team who don't run balls out -- big-name guys," the scout said. "But he doesn't take them out or sit them down."

"They played like it was Sept. 20 and they were out of the race," said one scout. "Yeah, I know they're out of the race now. But they were playing like it was the end of September."



Another bit, one player talked to other media sources and said too much of the focus was on Griffey, Hamilton and Homer, not the team. Considering the source, the way to read that was 'too much of the focus isn't on me, me, me.' Hamilton dismissed that talk and said he didn't know Griffey was on a home run chase.

-Trent

[TC81190]

See, I disagree with that. There is no way anybody will convinve me this team in 31-51 bad. Never. Narron has done so much stupid stuff in his time here that it was becoming painful to watch. Having Ramirez pitch an innings of relief, then start the next day, pinch hitting Juan Castro for Hamilton, walking Daryl Ward to get to Alfonso Soriano, abusing the arms of Arroyo and Harang, the mismanagement of Arroyo, the Edwin fiasco last year, the Edwin fiasco this year, the constant tinkering of lineups, and the list goes on and on and on. Narron does not know how to use a bullpen. He uses guys night after night after night, and thinks because they don't pitch full innings their arms are rested.

This team is underachieving, alot.

Edwin fiasco. :laugh:

Did he do some stupid things? Yes, but he was a good guy and at the least I will miss the fact that he was one of the classiest guys in the game.

[TC81190]

Another bit, one player talked to other media sources and said too much of the focus was on Griffey, Hamilton and Homer, not the team. Considering the source, the way to read that was 'too much of the focus isn't on me, me, me.' Hamilton dismissed that talk and said he didn't know Griffey was on a home run chase.

Mark me down as saying I think Brandon Phillips said this.

[TC81190]

-Fay

Ozzie would be awesome in Cincinnati. I would sign up for that in a heartbeat. It won't happen though.

That quote got me pumped. No lies.



And everyone, stop complaining about pitchers throwing 100 pitches, these are MLB starting pitchers, not a 5 year old little leaguer that needs to be coddled before and after every game.

[JLB5]

Mark me down as saying I think Brandon Phillips said this.

Yes, it was Phillips. His full comments are in another thread.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59946

[jimbo]

That quote got me pumped. No lies.



And everyone, stop complaining about pitchers throwing 100 pitches, these are MLB starting pitchers, not a 5 year old little leaguer that needs to be coddled before and after every game.

Thank you. :clap:

[reds44]

That quote got me pumped. No lies.



And everyone, stop complaining about pitchers throwing 100 pitches, these are MLB starting pitchers, not a 5 year old little leaguer that needs to be coddled before and after every game.
It's not 100 pitches. It was becoming a surprise if Narron only left a guy out there for 100 pitches. Normally when Harang, Arroyo, or Loshe got to 100 pitches Narron thought they had another inning left.

[BLEEDS]

Mark me down as saying I think Brandon Phillips said this.

Can I mark you down as having read this too?!:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1401440

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[BenHayes]

Bob Brenly , Ken Macha , Ronnie Oester or how about Barry Larkin?

[Blue]

Stark and scouts on Reds

I'd been hearing scouts talk for several weeks about the lethargy that pervaded almost everyone on the field not named Ryan Freel or Scott Hatteberg. They weren't kidding.

"They weren't playing hard for him," one scout said of Narron. "They were comfortable with him -- too comfortable. Jerry is such a nice guy, I think they kind of took advantage of him."

"It's incredible to me the guys on that team who don't run balls out -- big-name guys," the scout said. "But he doesn't take them out or sit them down."

"They played like it was Sept. 20 and they were out of the race," said one scout. "Yeah, I know they're out of the race now. But they were playing like it was the end of September."


-Trent


GAWD. What a crock.

Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton, Phillips, Gonzalez. None of those guys are having seasons that indicate that they haven't been playing hard.

Now, the relievers, those guys are the ones I would suspect of not playing hard.

That scout must have been Bob Boone.

[Blue]

Bob Brenly , Ken Macha , Ronnie Oester or how about Barry Larkin?

I'd love for Barry to come back and coach the team. Lots of intensity, and he'd have a good relationship with Dunn and Griffey, plus Billy Hatcher and Tom Hume, if they stay.

[redsfanmia]

GAWD. What a crock.

Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton, Phillips, Gonzalez. None of those guys are having seasons that indicate that they haven't been playing hard.

Now, the relievers, those guys are the ones I would suspect of not playing hard.

That scout must have been Bob Boone.

Have you watched any games? Freel, Hatteberg, Phillips, Conine, Hamilton, and Dave Ross play hard everyone else just goes through the motions.

[jimbo]

Normally when Harang, Arroyo, or Loshe got to 100 pitches Narron thought they had another inning left.

Maybe it had more to do with the fact he had nobody in the bullpen that he could rely on. There are other pitchers who are throwing as many or more pitches than Harang and Arroyo and doing just fine. I see no problems with a pitcher throwing 100-120 pitches a game if they are healthy and have had no past arm injuries or surgeries.

As much as Jack McKeon was loved by Reds fans, many forget that he openly said that he never counted pitches and expected his starters to have a mindset of finishing what they started. I'm not advocating not keeping track of pitch counts, but I'm totally against babying starting pitchers.

[Blue]

Have you watched any games? Freel, Hatteberg, Phillips, Conine, Hamilton, and Dave Ross play hard everyone else just goes through the motions.

BWAHAHAHA! Dunn and Griffey are on pace to go through the motions to the tune of about 46 HRs and 44 HRs, respectively.

My goodness. Think of what they could do if they actually tried!

[reds44]

Maybe it had more to do with the fact he had nobody in the bullpen that he could rely on. There are other pitchers who are throwing as many or more pitches than Harang and Arroyo and doing just fine. I see no problems with a pitcher throwing 100-120 pitches a game if they are healthy and have had no past arm injuries or surgeries.

Yeah because the wear and tear hasn't showed on Arroyo's arm this year.

[HUHUH]

BWAHAHAHA! Dunn and Griffey are on pace to go through the motions to the tune of about 46 HRs and 44 HRs, respectively.

My goodness. Think of what they could do if they actually tried!

Amen brother. If those two actually gave a &%$* about the team instead of personal accomplishments, we'd be a lot better off.

[jimbo]

Yeah because the wear and tear hasn't showed on Arroyo's arm this year.

He's been sharp his last two starts and he has attributed it to his diet and conditioning, both of which he has made changes to.

[TC81190]

Can I mark you down as having read this too?!:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1401440

PEACE

-BLEEDS

LOL, nope sure didn't. I only came here today to read the Narron threads.

[Screwball]

He's been sharp his last two starts and he has attributed it to his diet and conditioning, both of which he has made changes to.

I find it to be a pretty big coincidence that the 4 or 5 starts immediately ensuing his 129 pitch outing were horrific, while the last 2 starts immediately following extra rest were more like himself. His dieting and conditioning may help some, but I doubt that alone changes the velocity on his fastball 4-5 mph in such a short period of time.

IMO, his numbers (absurdly low K rate, skyrocketing ERA) along with the look of his pitches (lost velocity, little command and sharpness on his breaking stuff) made it pretty clear he was suffering from a tired arm that came as a direct result of Narron riding him harder than he should have.

[JLB5]

Heard something interesting on SportsTalk (700 WLW) on my way home. Caller claimed to have a source on the coaching staff who said Narron got into it with Krivsky last week over the bullpen, complaining that he needs a vet to pitch in 8th. Krivsky responded that he needed to deal with the current roster or maybe it was time for him to go. This falls in line with the comments Narron made to Welsh on Sunday about it not being fair to him or the players to keep running the youngsters out their late in games.

This whole thing has me wondering if Narron was not the driving force behind "The Trade" last year and now he was demanding "The Trade 2.0." If this is true, then it indicates that maybe Wayne is smart enough to realize that trading for a couple of retread bullpen arms isn't going to fix this team in the long term. Maybe it signifies a commitment to rebuilding and he is taking his time to get the best deals for the pieces he is about to trade. Maybe Narron couldn't handle that, especially if Krivsky is saying that they are about to go young and things are going to possibly get worse before better.

Personally, I would like to think this is how it went down. It gives me hope that Krivsky actually might have a plan for the future and getting Narron out of the way is phase one of the rebuilding model.

[Screwball]

Heard something interesting on SportsTalk (700 WLW) on my way home. Caller claimed to have a source on the coaching staff who said Narron got into it with Krivsky last week over the bullpen, complaining that he needs a vet to pitch in 8th. Krivsky responded that he needed to deal with the current roster or maybe it was time for him to go. This falls in line with the comments Narron made to Welsh on Sunday about it not being fair to him or the players to keep running the youngsters out their late in games.

This whole thing has me wondering if Narron was not the driving force behind "The Trade" last year and now he was demanding "The Trade 2.0." If this is true, then it indicates that maybe Wayne is smart enough to realize that trading for a couple of retread bullpen arms isn't going to fix this team in the long term. Maybe it signifies a commitment to rebuilding and he is taking his time to get the best deals for the pieces he is about to trade. Maybe Narron couldn't handle that, especially if Krivsky is saying that they are about to go young and things are going to possibly get worse before better.

Personally, I would like to think this is how it went down. It gives me hope that Krivsky actually might have a plan for the future and getting Narron out of the way is phase one of the rebuilding model.


I could see this being true. Being forced to pitch guys that are basically learning on the job doesn't exactly scream job security. Of course then again, outside of Weathers, Narron's scrappy vets (Stanton, Cormier, Santos, etc.) haven't gotten the job done either.

Although if this is true, I'm kinda curious as to why Krivsky seemed to be so emotional during yesterday's press conference when talking about Jerry.

[JLB5]

I could see this being true. Being forced to pitch guys that are basically learning on the job doesn't exactly scream job security. Of course then again, outside of Weathers, Narron's scrappy vets (Stanton, Cormier, Santos, etc.) haven't gotten the job done either.

Although if this is true, I'm kinda curious as to why Krivsky seemed to be so emotional during yesterday's press conference when talking about Jerry.

I think Wk's emotions do fit with this scenario. First, he's already said that the recommendation was made last week when the confrontation about the pen supposedly took place. Second, he admitted his share of the fault in not providing Narron with a winning roster. It makes sense if WK had decided that patching up the pen is not the solution to this organization's ills and he was going to have a manager openly advocating that as the most needed move. He was emotional because he felt bad, knowing Jerry was right that the pen is crap, but also knowing that Narron couldn't keep his mouth shut while he went about righting the team on a higher level.

[Screwball]

I think Wk's emotions do fit with this scenario. First, he's already said that the recommendation was made last week when the confrontation about the pen supposedly took place. Second, he admitted his share of the fault in not providing Narron with a winning roster. It makes sense if WK had decided that patching up the pen is not the solution to this organization's ills and he was going to have a manager openly advocating that as the most needed move. He was emotional because he felt bad, knowing Jerry was right that the pen is crap, but also knowing that Narron couldn't keep his mouth shut while he went about righting the team on a higher level.

Ah, good points and it does make sense.

[jimbo]

I find it to be a pretty big coincidence that the 4 or 5 starts immediately ensuing his 129 pitch outing were horrific, while the last 2 starts immediately following extra rest were more like himself. His dieting and conditioning may help some, but I doubt that alone changes the velocity on his fastball 4-5 mph in such a short period of time.


He only had a day or two of extra rest. It wasn't like he was skipped a start. I would venture to guess that changing your diet and conditioning would have a lot bigger impact than a one extra day of rest or two.

[Screwball]

He only had a day or two of extra rest. It wasn't like he was skipped a start. I would venture to guess that changing your diet and conditioning would have a lot bigger impact than a one extra day of rest or two.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. An extra day of rest is very improtant to pitchers nowadays - especially one with a tired arm, and I just don't see how a few days of eating better could make his fastball jump from 85/86 to 90 mph.

[jimbo]

Yeah, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you'd ever eaten a bad diet and suddenly changed, you'd be amazed at how quickly you feel better and have more energy. I can't see how an extra day of rest does much of anything.