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HokieRed
07-09-2007, 06:38 PM
There continues to be a great deal of talk on this board about trading David Weathers. No doubt he has value and I wouldn't mind seeing him traded if the return is right. But he could also play a very valuable role on this club next year and he's not going to be easy to replace. Krivsky's been trying for a year to improve the bullpen without much success (though I think there are the slightest signs of hope just lately). So why would we think it will be easy to replace the best relief pitcher--by far--that we've had? What I hope people might take up is 1. What teams really would have interest in Weathers? 2. What would be an adequate return? 3. Should we hold onto him?

Doro
07-09-2007, 07:00 PM
I say hold onto him because we arnt going to get anything in return.

bleedsred
07-09-2007, 07:10 PM
HokieRed...you just expressed my thoughts like a hammer driving a nail. I can see trading Stanton and Lohse but trading away guys like JR, Dunn, and Weathers is just throwing away next season. Trade Hatti, bring up Votto...get rid of Castro/Moeller...get Bray HEALTHY and sign a bonafide #2/3 rotation guy and this team is not far off from contending in the central. You would think that the Reds could build a powerful bench with the hitter friendly GAB....

bleedsred
07-09-2007, 07:13 PM
Of course contending also would be related to WK landing 2 arms for BP help....could Stanton/Lohse/ Hatti land a couple of arms?

nmculbreth
07-09-2007, 07:48 PM
1. I think Weathers would be an attractive target for a lot of teams but I think Philadelphia, Detroit and the Yankees would be the most logical destinations.

2. He won't fetch an elite prospect but I could see him bringing in a top 50 -100 type prospect in the right circumstance. I could see a Weathers + Hatteburg package getting Joba Chamberlain + lesser prospect.

3. No. He's old, over-achieving and will never have more trade value than he does right now.

mole44
07-09-2007, 07:57 PM
3. Yes. He's old, over-achieving and will never have more trade value than he does right now.

Bingo. He sucked the last 2 seasons but has been decent this season. He's bound to revert back to the old form. Sell high.

jmac
07-09-2007, 08:23 PM
Bingo. He sucked the last 2 seasons
Are you talking about Weathers ?

jmac
07-09-2007, 08:28 PM
HokieRed...you just expressed my thoughts like a hammer driving a nail. I can see trading Stanton and Lohse but trading away guys like JR, Dunn, and Weathers is just throwing away next season. Trade Hatti, bring up Votto...get rid of Castro/Moeller...get Bray HEALTHY and sign a bonafide #2/3 rotation guy and this team is not far off from contending in the central. You would think that the Reds could build a powerful bench with the hitter friendly GAB....

You are right as well. This team needs a leadoff hitter and a closer. Maybe EG or someone else. Till some of the young guys develope in the pen for 8th inning guys,Weathers would fill role good for another year.
Hey, Weathers would be more of a benefit for this team than the caliber of player he would bring back in a trade.

nate
07-09-2007, 08:41 PM
Hey, Weathers would be more of a benefit for this team than the caliber of player he would bring back in a trade.

That's a good point, you're really just going to trade experience for potential with Weathers. And you'll probably wait longer than you'd like to realize that potential.

keeganbrick
07-09-2007, 08:53 PM
1. I think Weathers would be an attractive target for a lot of teams but I think Philadelphia, Detroit and the Yankees would be the most logical destinations.

2. He won't fetch an elite prospect but I could see him bringing in a top 50 -100 type prospect in the right circumstance. I could see a Weathers + Hatteburg package getting Joba Chamberlain + lesser prospect.
3. No. He's old, over-achieving and will never have more trade value than he does right now.

I dont know if you're going to get Joba Chamberlain for those two.

11larkin11
07-09-2007, 10:43 PM
There is no way we are getting Joba. It would take Griffey/Dunn + Hatteberg/Weather for the Yankees to even think about it. He is a top pitching prospect. Would you have traded Homer for an aging reliever with a 3 ERA last season?

But anyways, I hope we trade him soon, because I'm afraid he may go into a slump starting with yestderdays game.

AmarilloRed
07-09-2007, 11:18 PM
We are now going to trade away our effective relievers?:bang:

jmac
07-10-2007, 12:33 AM
We are now going to trade away our effective relievers?:bang:

I echo your sentiments !

NCRed
07-10-2007, 07:22 AM
Heard on WIP in Philly last night that the Phillies and Reds are talking with Weathers and Lohse the targets for the Phils. Dont know what the Reds would get back?

Chi-Town Red
07-10-2007, 08:52 AM
There is no way we are getting Joba. It would take Griffey/Dunn + Hatteberg/Weather for the Yankees to even think about it. He is a top pitching prospect. Would you have traded Homer for an aging reliever with a 3 ERA last season?

But anyways, I hope we trade him soon, because I'm afraid he may go into a slump starting with yestderdays game. totally agree...the Yankees are not going to trade Joba...period

HokieRed
07-10-2007, 10:20 AM
NCRed, any players from the Phillies mentioned specifically?

NCRed
07-10-2007, 10:36 AM
No - not specifically linked to the Reds but in general when discussing chips the Phils have they mentioned Bourne (speedy OF on the 25 man) and Carrasco in AA. Dont think Weathers/Lohse bring Carrasco but the Phils really need another starter and bullpen help if they think they have a chance. Gillick was quoted as saying he is going after a "fifth" starter.

CySeymour
07-10-2007, 10:44 AM
I think another point to consider is that sure, Weathers is effective THIS year. But what about next? At his age and build, is he gonna be as good next year? Seems to me like a classic case of selling high.

boognish
07-10-2007, 12:31 PM
No - not specifically linked to the Reds but in general when discussing chips the Phils have they mentioned Bourne (speedy OF on the 25 man) and Carrasco in AA. Dont think Weathers/Lohse bring Carrasco but the Phils really need another starter and bullpen help if they think they have a chance. Gillick was quoted as saying he is going after a "fifth" starter.

Wow. If the Reds can get either of those two for Weathers and/or Lohse, they should do so without any second thoughts. Baseball America called Bourn (and I am paraphrasing) Juan Pierre with good plate discipline and a good arm, and Carrasco is ranked 16th in BA's mid-season top 100 prospects and is currently a AA arm who could help as early as the middle of next season, probably out-performing Lohse at that point.

I think more feasible targets would be guys lower in the minors with some question marks, but unfortunately the Phils' system really isn't all that deep at the moment, so they could have to move wither Bourn or Carrasco to acquire the help they need, and would look for a higher-caliber player. Then again, WK has worked a couple trades with Gillick already--albeit they were trades I did not like--for Conine (hmm), Cormier (ick), and Franklin (ugh), so maybe there is a rapport there that makes a deal more likely.

AdamDunn
07-10-2007, 02:16 PM
We are now going to trade away our effective relievers?:bang:

Why not? The season IS LOST! Make no mistake about it. We aren't going to make the playoffs NO MATTER WHAT. We have the second worst record in MLB. Might as well sell off as much as we can.

As for me, I'd trade Weathers to Detroit for Scott Sizemore and Eulogio De La Cruz. That's only based on stats and BA ratings. Never seen either one play.

AmarilloRed
07-10-2007, 03:33 PM
The season may be lost, but we need effective relievers in our bullpen. However, I would be for trading him if we can get legitimate prospects back. There is a lot of sentiment for a fire sale, and I don't want to trade our veterans for next to nothing. Bourne and Carrasco sound like pretty good prospects, and I would trade Weathers for one of them.

jimbo
07-10-2007, 05:35 PM
The season may be lost, but we need effective relievers in our bullpen.

If the season is lost, then having effective relievers in the bullpen is irrelevant. You plug in young players who you want to evaluate for next season and beyond. The second half of this season is the perfect opportunity to do so. Weathers, as good as he's been this season, is not in the long-term plans for this organization so get something for him.

redsfanmia
07-10-2007, 06:35 PM
The season may be lost, but we need effective relievers in our bullpen. However, I would be for trading him if we can get legitimate prospects back. There is a lot of sentiment for a fire sale, and I don't want to trade our veterans for next to nothing. Bourne and Carrasco sound like pretty good prospects, and I would trade Weathers for one of them.

The Reds will lose 92+ games with Weathers or without him, trade him for a few prospects.

AmarilloRed
07-10-2007, 07:44 PM
The Reds will lose 92+ games with Weathers or without him, trade him for a few prospects.

Do you want a reprise of the Kearns trade? It sounds like you are saying trade Weathers for any prospect at all. If we do decide to trade him, I want at least a Type B prospect, preferably an A. Good relievers are at a premium, and he could be a good reliever for another year or two. The market for Weathers is going to be high,even at his age, and I want to make sure wet get the best return for him. We will probably not get multiple prospects, so I would be glad to get 1 good prospect. If we can't get a good trade, keep him.

nmculbreth
07-10-2007, 08:15 PM
There is no way we are getting Joba. It would take Griffey/Dunn + Hatteberg/Weather for the Yankees to even think about it. He is a top pitching prospect. Would you have traded Homer for an aging reliever with a 3 ERA last season?

But anyways, I hope we trade him soon, because I'm afraid he may go into a slump starting with yestderdays game.

Maybe I'm undervaluing Joba Chamberlain but I wouldn't consider him the same type of prospect as Homer Bailey or Phillip Hughes. IMHO he's more like Cueto, in terms of prospect status. If the Yankees are still in wildcard contention around the trade deadline I could envision Brian Cashman parting with a good but not great prospect if he can fill two needs and potentially save his job by doing so.

jmac
07-10-2007, 09:13 PM
Why not? The season IS LOST! Make no mistake about it. We aren't going to make the playoffs NO MATTER WHAT. We have the second worst record in MLB.

Personally, I am not a big fan of being on a 100 loss team that is the butt of all MLB jokes.
This team would beyond pathtic if it wasnt for Weathers.

nmculbreth
07-10-2007, 10:20 PM
Personally, I am not a big fan of being on a 100 loss team that is the butt of all MLB jokes.
This team would beyond pathtic if it wasnt for Weathers.

So we should hold onto Weathers so we only lose 95 games and have a team that is merely pathetic?

jmac
07-10-2007, 10:40 PM
So we should hold onto Weathers so we only lose 95 games and have a team that is merely pathetic?

Again,what we get for Weathers would only be minimal as far as future contributions to this team.
So yes, I say if we can keep him and keep some sort of respectability then do it rather than deal him-lose110 games and get a pitcher like Steve Kelly or Tom Shearn type for louisville( no offense to either of those guys btw).

jimbo
07-10-2007, 10:52 PM
Again,what we get for Weathers would only be minimal as far as future contributions to this team.


What makes you say that? Most of the time when you trade for a prospect, what that prospect turns out to be is an unknown. Many probably thought Harang wasn't going to contribute much in the future when we traded Guillen for him. That turned out quite nicely.

Keeping Weathers merely so that the Reds can win a few more games in a season where postseason play is out of the question is just pointless in my eyes.

jmac
07-10-2007, 11:29 PM
What makes you say that? Most of the time when you trade for a prospect, what that prospect turns out to be is an unknown. Many probably thought Harang wasn't going to contribute much in the future when we traded Guillen for him. That turned out quite nicely.

Keeping Weathers merely so that the Reds can win a few more games in a season where postseason play is out of the question is just pointless in my eyes.

If we could get a Harang then yes sir, but I certainly doubt we would get a player of that caliber. That was the exception rather than the rule.
Everyone is different but myself, as I said , would rather the reds lose 90 with Weathers than lose 110 without him if the player is a minor league caliber type pitcher only.

Carolina Red
07-10-2007, 11:56 PM
It really boils down to whether the FO believes we have a chance this season. If the Reds continue to make up ground between now and the end of the month I don't see trading the best thing they have in a weak bullpen. If we are still 13-15 games out I think you will see the Reds move Hatt and Stormy.

nmculbreth
07-11-2007, 12:14 AM
If we could get a Harang then yes sir, but I certainly doubt we would get a player of that caliber. That was the exception rather than the rule.
Everyone is different but myself, as I said , would rather the reds lose 90 with Weathers than lose 110 without him if the player is a minor league caliber type pitcher only.

What exactly is a "Harang caliber" prospect? While it may be difficult to remember now, when Harang was traded from Oakland he was considered a marginal prospect with mediocre stuff. He's certainly blossomed here but let's not pretend that he was a "can't miss" type prospect.

IMHO the case of Harang is a perfect support for why Weathers should be dealt before the deadline. This is a bad baseball team with or without Weathers and it's highly unlikely that Weathers will be around when the club is able to seriously compete for the post season. I'd much rather take my chances with a player who might contribute in the longterm vs. a guy who is going to help the current team lose 95 games instead of 100+.

AmarilloRed
07-11-2007, 12:38 AM
It really boils down to whether the FO believes we have a chance this season. If the Reds continue to make up ground between now and the end of the month I don't see trading the best thing they have in a weak bullpen. If we are still 13-15 games out I think you will see the Reds move Hatt and Stormy.

Hatteberg or Conine will be dealt regardless. The front office needs to trade one of them to make room for Votto. If Mackanin continues to have the Reds play good baseball, they will hold onto Weathers. Otherwise, he will be traded for the best prospect they can get.

jimbo
07-11-2007, 12:41 AM
If we could get a Harang then yes sir, but I certainly doubt we would get a player of that caliber. That was the exception rather than the rule.


The point is that the Reds didn't know the caliber of player they were getting in Harang at the time because he was still a young pitcher just coming up through the minors. It wasn't an exception at all.

redsfanmia
07-11-2007, 11:25 AM
Do you want a reprise of the Kearns trade? It sounds like you are saying trade Weathers for any prospect at all. If we do decide to trade him, I want at least a Type B prospect, preferably an A. Good relievers are at a premium, and he could be a good reliever for another year or two. The market for Weathers is going to be high,even at his age, and I want to make sure wet get the best return for him. We will probably not get multiple prospects, so I would be glad to get 1 good prospect. If we can't get a good trade, keep him.

I really dont consider the Kearns/Lopez deal a failure, Bray will eventually make that deal look better. Would you rather have Kearns/Lopez or Hamilton/Gonzalez for way less money?

JLB5
07-11-2007, 11:51 AM
It really boils down to whether the FO believes we have a chance this season. If the Reds continue to make up ground between now and the end of the month I don't see trading the best thing they have in a weak bullpen. If we are still 13-15 games out I think you will see the Reds move Hatt and Stormy.

I think it also boils down to the plans for next year. Short of a free agent signing or Everyday Eddie making an amazing recovery, they have no one to fill the void if he leaves. Given his relatively cheap contract, I'd keep him as the closer unless they get bowled over with an offer.

boognish
07-11-2007, 01:23 PM
If we could get a Harang then yes sir, but I certainly doubt we would get a player of that caliber. That was the exception rather than the rule.
Everyone is different but myself, as I said , would rather the reds lose 90 with Weathers than lose 110 without him if the player is a minor league caliber type pitcher only.

Since when is Weathers a 20-win player? Even if replaced by someone with no business on a big-league roster (think Chris Michalak or Joe Mays) there is no way the net loss in dealing Weathers even approaches 20 wins.

Weathers should be traded for the best deal possible while he is at the peak of his value. It will signal a dramatic failure if the front office is not able to trade him for an acceptable prospect.