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Degenerate39
07-18-2007, 02:01 PM
I don't have access to ESPN Insider and Buster Olney's blog but on redreporter and Trent's blog posters have said that Olney said the Braves are interested in Bronson and that the Reds would probably demand Saltamacchia in a trade. Can anyone with Insider access give us the scoop?

From the ORG...

Would anyone do this trade? I really don't know if I would or not. Salty could be the Reds future catcher. But we need Arroyo in the rotation regardless of the year he's having.

reds44
07-18-2007, 02:02 PM
There probably isn't a player on the Reds (witht he exception of Harang) that I wouldn't trade for Salty. Anytime you can get a quality catcher with a quality bat, you have to do it. It's great value.

joshnky
07-18-2007, 02:08 PM
I think it would take more than Arroyo to get Salty from the Braves. they've been pretty adamant in their refusal to trade him. Maybe package a B-level prospect (LeCure?) along with Arroyo to get Salty and a PTBNL. I think that would be realistic and I would do it in a heartbeat given Arroyo's inconsistencies.

bounty37h
07-18-2007, 02:13 PM
Tough one indeed. Would love an upgrade at catcher, which Salty is from what I read/hear, but Ross isnt that bad, decent catcher, not consistent hitter, but has a lil pop. I am from the old school of catching though, defense def comes first, any good hitting is a bonus. So, Ross is among the least of our problems (at least from what I can tell, I dont know if any of his calls or somethign he is doing isn't working with the bullpen, but I think he's doing alright. Arroyo is an important key to this team right now, even with not the year we were hoping for so far from him (not all his fault either). I dont know if I would make it, have to see all teh pieces of the trade to decide which road to go on this one.

joshnky
07-18-2007, 02:33 PM
The question you have to consider is when should the Reds aim to be a serious contender again? If they aim for next year they should stand pat on Dunn and possibly Griffey as well as Arroyo and look to rebuild the bullpen in the offseason and hope Bailey develops into a star next year. Realistically they are 2 to likely 3 years away from contention. At that point Bruce, Bailey and Votto should all be key, inexpensive contributors and Salty would fit well in that plan. You could use the money saved from trading Arroyo to extend and/or pay for arbitration raises for some of our current young contributors (BP, EE, Hamilton) and fill the holes in the bullpen and back end of the rotation.

mroby85
07-18-2007, 02:34 PM
i think it would be a bad move to trade arroyo personally, they are finally starting to have a decent starting rotation, and i think thats more important than a catcher that hits above average. i can live with ross as long as he plays great defense.

jimbo
07-18-2007, 02:37 PM
I'm on the fence on this one. I'm just really reluctant to trade a pitcher like Arroyo. As I mentioned in the thread about his extension being a mistake, he is an innings eater and puts up numbers that will be hard to replace. With as much trouble as this organization has had trying to find pitchers like Arroyo, the deal would have to bring a bit more than Salty in my opinion.

AdamDunn
07-18-2007, 02:39 PM
i think it would be a bad move to trade arroyo personally, they are finally starting to have a decent starting rotation, and i think thats more important than a catcher that hits above average. i can live with ross as long as he plays great defense.

EXACTLY. Bronson Arroyo is a VERY CHEAP No. 2 starter in the current market. David Ross is a solid catcher. People who want an upgrade at the catcher position don't realize that a hitting catcher is going to cost $$$ while a good defensive catcher won't cost nearly as much. Ross might not hit, but he drives in runs, hits homers, and saves us runs on the defensive end. We don't need Salty at that price.

joshnky
07-18-2007, 02:47 PM
saves us runs on the defensive end

Is Ross really that good defensively? He seems to do a poor job of blocking the plate and seems to have a hard time holding onto the ball in these situations. I will admit that he is good at throwing out runners.

I understand the argument that a good defensive catcher is a cheap alternative to a catcher with the whole package but I wonder if we'd be saying that if we knew what it was like to have a catcher who wasn't a black hole offensively. Its been a long time since Bench filled that role for us.

uoduck1017
07-18-2007, 02:48 PM
The question you have to consider is when should the Reds aim to be a serious contender again? If they aim for next year they should stand pat on Dunn and possibly Griffey as well as Arroyo and look to rebuild the bullpen in the offseason and hope Bailey develops into a star next year. Realistically they are 2 to likely 3 years away from contention. At that point Bruce, Bailey and Votto should all be key, inexpensive contributors and Salty would fit well in that plan. You could use the money saved from trading Arroyo to extend and/or pay for arbitration raises for some of our current young contributors (BP, EE, Hamilton) and fill the holes in the bullpen and back end of the rotation.

Great post. I think that is the thing a lot of Reds fans are missing. While we would like to believe the Reds are close to conteding, let's be honest...they're not. Arroyo has been a great pitcher for us, but let's face it, we could be this bad without him. Although Salty is definately unproven, do we know exactly what Arroyo will give us in the next couple of years?

Jr's Boy
07-18-2007, 02:51 PM
Four million next year for Arroyo is a steal.This team needs any and all kinds of pitching,and with the limited financial resources it only makes sense to keep him.But then there's the infamous ''if'' which has become so common place over the year's with this team,if we could free up money,if we could get this or that player.
And you don't build a good,long term starting rotation by trading away solid pitchers who eat a lot of inning's at GABP.

mroby85
07-18-2007, 02:52 PM
Great post. I think that is the thing a lot of Reds fans are missing. While we would like to believe the Reds are close to conteding, let's be honest...they're not. Arroyo has been a great pitcher for us, but let's face it, we could be this bad without him. Although Salty is definately unproven, do we know exactly what Arroyo will give us in the next couple of years?

arroyo is not the reason we're losing though. you don't trade part of the answer because you can lose without someone. losing shouldn't be the ultimate goal. if this bullpen were fixed this team would be right in the thick of things.

Krawhitham
07-18-2007, 02:57 PM
Heard an interesting rumor -- and that's may be all it is, a rumor -- that makes sense, to a certain degree: The Braves are interested in Cincinnati right-hander Bronson Arroyo. But I cannot imagine the Reds making that deal without getting Jarrod Saltalamacchia in return; so far, Cincinnati GM Wayne Krivsky has been asking for big-time return in his trade proposals. Arroyo had one of his best games of the season, by the way, and it may be that Saltalamacchia is about to become an everyday player.

joshnky
07-18-2007, 02:57 PM
if this bullpen were fixed this team would be right in the thick of things.

If this is the plan then I agree with you. If we plan on trading Dunn and/or Griffey, Hatte, Weathers, and Lohse then we might as well trade Arroyo too because we will be a few years from contention.

uoduck1017
07-18-2007, 02:58 PM
I don't think fixing the bullpen would help as much as people think. The offense is inconsistent, and we have only really had 2 quality starters. Fixing the bullpen might have added some W's, but just how many?

ChatterRed
07-18-2007, 02:58 PM
arroyo is not the reason we're losing though. you don't trade part of the answer because you can lose without someone. losing shouldn't be the ultimate goal. if this bullpen were fixed this team would be right in the thick of things.

Good post.

When you're putting a jigsaw puzzle together. You try and find all the pieces..........but while doing so, you don't discard the ones that already fit.

I agree that if we had a bullpen, this team would be doing alot better. They can use Milton's and possibly Dunn's savings in the offseason to fix the bullpen and other needed repairs.

durl
07-18-2007, 03:05 PM
Agreed. The Reds have struggled to find quality pitching for years in an extremely competitive landscape and Arroyo shouldn't be traded for a catcher.

REDblooded
07-18-2007, 03:13 PM
This is one of those potential deals that makes you think, but I'd be hardpressed to turn down Salty for Arroyo. It's not a knock on Arroyo, but the dude is racking up some major innings on that arm of his. I've loved watching him pitch, and he's definitely a solid number 2 arm, but IMO, I'd rather have a positional player like Salty who can play solid D, is young, and can hit for average. He could eventually provide the Reds with the type of production that Cleveland gets from VMart.

joshnky
07-18-2007, 03:18 PM
When you're putting a jigsaw puzzle together. You try and find all the pieces..........but while doing so, you don't discard the ones that already fit.

Or you realize the 10,000 piece puzzle may be too difficult to put together and you exchange it for a 100 piece puzzle. This puzzle was compiled by three different GMs with different visions and has become increasingly complicated. I'm a big fan of Arroyo and what he brings to the team but of all our available trading chips he will bring the best return. A good return may speed up the rebuilding process and help us complete that 100 piece puzzle.

thorn
07-18-2007, 03:20 PM
Another LH bat, Bruce, Votto, Hamilton, Dunn, Griff, albeit a pretty good one. Pitching wins, we've already seen over the past several years, we can't win trying to outscore people and last I checked, we will need Arroyo and possibly another starter in 2-3 years because we don't have a lot in our system. Until these young guys come up and actually put up descent numbers, I'm convinced we are going to have a horrible rotation 2 -3 yrs down the road without Arroyo.

Jmac84
07-18-2007, 06:31 PM
Another LH bat, Bruce, Votto, Hamilton, Dunn, Griff, albeit a pretty good one. Pitching wins, we've already seen over the past several years, we can't win trying to outscore people and last I checked, we will need Arroyo and possibly another starter in 2-3 years because we don't have a lot in our system. Until these young guys come up and actually put up descent numbers, I'm convinced we are going to have a horrible rotation 2 -3 yrs down the road without Arroyo.

Saltalamacchia is a switch hitter. This guy is a stud in the making. I think our strength in the minors now is our pitching depth. I believe that the Reds should focus on rebuilding with young talent, but it doesn't have to be that far in the future. If we can get some good young parts for Dunn and Griffey, then we are on our way. With Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Hamilton and Saltalamacchia (and possibly Encarnacion), we would have a nice young offensive core. We would have to spend some money on pitching in the offseason but we should have plenty available if we subtract salaries like Milton, Griffey, Lohse and Dunn. If I had that trade on the table, I would take it.

AmarilloRed
07-18-2007, 07:26 PM
We need Arroyo for the present. He is a quality starting pitcher and I would never trade a quality starting pitcher for a position player. It is your starting pitching that wins you divisions.

ChatterRed
07-18-2007, 07:32 PM
GOOD starting pitching is the hardest thing to acquire in MLB.

AmarilloRed
07-18-2007, 07:39 PM
GOOD starting pitching is the hardest thing to acquire in MLB.

In my view Harang and Arroyo are good starting pitchers. If we can get some good starting pitchers to help them, we have a chance to challenge for the division in the future.

Chi-Town Red
07-18-2007, 08:13 PM
very tough decision ...stud catcher ( don't forget who can play first as well) VS a solid #2...if you could do it straight up player for player...get Salty...stud catchers only come around once a decade or so

jmac
07-18-2007, 08:54 PM
If this is the plan then I agree with you. If we plan on trading Dunn and/or Griffey, Hatte, Weathers, and Lohse then we might as well trade Arroyo too because we will be a few years from contention.

To go along with what you said, I stated before Weathers could help this team more than the player we would get for him.
"If" we trade Stormy, then who in the world could close on this team next season?
Burton ? No.
Coffey ? He had his chance
Stanton ? :help:

To me , its silly for this team to even consider trading pitching when we need ?
Yep, pitching.
Let me correct myself, if a team wants the Loshes, Stantons or even Belisles of this team fine.But not Harang or Arroyo and if we trade Stormy what are we gonna do, go out and try to "acquire" a dependable closer in the offseason?:rolleyes:

uoduck1017
07-18-2007, 08:57 PM
We need Arroyo for the present. He is a quality starting pitcher and I would never trade a quality starting pitcher for a position player. It is your starting pitching that wins you divisions.

The present currently has us 15 games under .500. If the Reds are serious about building for the future, this is a type of trade you need to make. Arroyo is a good pitcher, but in the time where the Reds can really afford him, we will have a bad team anyway.

FlightRick
07-18-2007, 09:21 PM
I thought that accepted rule of thumb was that we always over-value the prospects in OUR system, and UNDER-value the prospects of other organizations?

With a grand total of 125 major league at-bats, a .285 BA, and a .750 OPS, a "prospect" is still all Saltalamacchia is, and yet, the phrase "stud catcher" has been applied to him in this thread.

Meantime, Arroyo actually *was* a "stud" last year, and has two additional years of being at least slightly superior to league average under his belt. He's also cheap. Cheap this year, and cheap next year. And with the new economics of baseball, probably still "affordable" for the 3 years after that.

If it's the payroll flexibility we want out of a trade,then why do it now when Arroyo is still almost criminally cheap for 18 more months AND when he's sporting a not-so-sexy 4-10 record and a trade value that's the lowest it's been for him since 2003? If we have to, we can flip him next summer, as his dirt-cheapness is running out, and hopefully after he's reverted to form enough that his trade value has rebounded a bit.

Not saying Arroyo is untouchable, by any means.... but trading away one "is" for one "could be" is nowhere near the same as trading one "is" away for another "is" or for a bushel full of "could bes." I'm not ready to do that.

BEETTLEBUG
07-18-2007, 09:22 PM
NO

uoduck1017
07-18-2007, 09:26 PM
NO

Awe-inspiring analysis. :p:

Hey Meat
07-18-2007, 09:56 PM
I was not impressed by Saltmalickya or Salty or whatever his name is. This would be a bad trade.

Mutaman
07-18-2007, 10:09 PM
I really don't understand a lot of people who post here. The name of the game is pitching. The main reason the Reds have been so bad over the last 7 years is because they don't have it. So now we've got Arroyo who is a solid major league pitcher (despite being abused by Naron) who we have signed at a reasonable price. Moreover, he a money ballplayer- he's the only guy on this team who didn't tank down the stretch last year, and he was solid for the Red Sox in the post season and against the Yankees. Plus he seems like a good guy. So why would anyone want to trade him for a catcher!!!

Arroyo, Harang and Phillips are the base on which to build this team. Why in the world would you want to trade them?

reds44
07-18-2007, 10:11 PM
I really don't understand a lot of people who post here. The name of the game is pitching. The main reason the Reds have been so bad over the last 7 years is because they don't have it. So now we've got Arroyo who is a solid major league pitcher (despite being abused by Naron) who we have signed at a reasonable price. Moreover, he a money ballplayer- he's the only guy on this team who didn't tank down the stretch last year, and he was solid for the Red Sox in the post season and against the Yankees. Plus he seems like a good guy. So why would anyone want to trade him for a catcher!!!

Arroyo, Harang and Phillips are the base on which to build this team. Why in the world would you want to trade them?
Correct. He tanked in the middle of the season.

BucksandReds
07-18-2007, 10:23 PM
Under no circumstances do you trade Arroyo for a catcher that has proved nothing. Arroyo is part of the solution. DO you know why his record is awful? No run support. DO you know why his ERA is only around league average? He blew about 4 starts after NArron worked him 120 pitches in San Diego and then he with alot of other guys on the team got the flu and pitched through it even ofering to start for Lohse because Lohse was too sick. He is back to normal now. He is pitching at the level of a number 2 starter now and has given NO indication that this will not continue. If Arroyo is traded for anything less than Saltamacchia and potential #2-3 starter then I am done with Krivsky's Reds.

nmculbreth
07-18-2007, 10:29 PM
I'm not opposed to dealing Arroyo but I don't think trading him straight up for Salty would be the wisest course of action. Trading for prospects is a risky proposition, given that you're giving up a player with a major league track record for only potential. In some cases that is an acceptable risk, IMHO this isn't one of them. In my mind any deal involving Arroyo must involve multiple quality prospects in order to try to offset some of the danger associated with trading for pure potential. Are there a couple prospects that I'd accept straight-up as compensation for Arroyo? Absolutely, Salty isn't one of them.

jmac
07-18-2007, 10:52 PM
Correct. He tanked in the middle of the season.

I would prefer calling it slump which is the same thing EE will/has experience(d).
We arent going to get a pitcher who is perfect and never goes thru dry spells.

AmarilloRed
07-18-2007, 11:09 PM
It seems a lot of people want to trade our best players on our team for next to nothing. I am not saying Saltemacchia is nothing, but he will not help our team the way Arroyo will.

kaldaniels
07-18-2007, 11:22 PM
Devils Advocate here:

So, would Krivsky get any love for turning Wily Mo into Salty???

Mutaman
07-18-2007, 11:35 PM
Correct. He tanked in the middle of the season.

Maybe I'm naive but I see a big difference between a midseason slump or period of a dead arm, and spitting the bit when the money is on the line. As I recall we entered last September just 2 games behind the eventual world champs. If others had just come close to performing like Arroyo the Reds would have been in the post season.

CincyRed44
07-19-2007, 01:53 AM
The Braves fans on mlb site do not want Arroyo and Hatteburg if Jarrod Saltalamachia is the asking price. They would rather have either Ian Snell or Tom Gorzelanny and Xavier Nady from the Pirates. Found that quite interesting.

As for my 2 cents, I'd like to have Saltalamachia but not if the asking price starts with Arroyo :mooner:. Now, if JoJo Reyes is included I'd have to think real hard.:evil: Then again if Lohse and Hatteburg could pry him away maybe just maybe :thumbup: Oh well one can dream :D.

AmarilloRed
07-19-2007, 03:07 AM
I am surprised by that. They might also have to give up Saltemacchia to make the Pirates trade happen. To make any trade happen, you need to be willing to pay a high price, and it doesn't sound like the Braves fans want to pay the price to make a trade happen. All GMs will probably start and end their trade talks with the Braves with Saltemacchia. If he is not traded, I doubt a Braves trade will happen.

Marge'sMullet
07-19-2007, 08:34 AM
If this is the plan then I agree with you. If we plan on trading Dunn and/or Griffey, Hatte, Weathers, and Lohse then we might as well trade Arroyo too because we will be a few years from contention.

Totally disagree...I wouldn't trade just to be trading. The Reds need to keep as many pieces of the puzzle together as they can. I wouldn't fire sale, but I would trade Dunn and Lohse. I like Hatte helping along Votte and I like him cheap. Don't forget that good teams have good veterens and good benches. Weathers is cheap too and I would keep. You can't trade Griffey he is the only player keeping the REDS on the map. If we didn't have Griffey we would be Washington..KC or Pitts.

ChatterRed
07-19-2007, 09:16 AM
I stand pat and deal in the offseason. Re-evaluate what savings you have (less Milton), cut some guys and sign some new ones for the bullpen.

I actually wish that if they were going to trade at the deadline, they'd think about next year and maybe get a closer (Gagne) or a RH power bat (Cabrera).

The way the offense is playing, I hate to trade Dunn right now. I've wanted to trade him for 2 years and most of this season, but I think he may be improving somewhat. I think the offensive deficiencies are the big hole created by the lack of a RH power bat, although I think putting Phillips in the cleanup spot might be the right thing to do. He has a knack for the big hit and would fit well between Griffey and Dunn. I'd bat Hamilton leadoff. If we had a legit power bat on 1B, the first 5 hitters in the lineup would all be 25-40 HR potential guys.

CF Hamilton
1B Hatteberg
RF Griffey
2B Phillips
LF Dunn
3B Encarnacion
SS Can't think of his name - but the new guy (I always want to call him A-Rod)
C Ross