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Benihana
07-19-2007, 03:39 PM
is pretty remarkable.

In one camp, you have those that believe the Reds should trade Bronson Arroyo for Jarrod Saltalamacchia, a prospect that may someday turn into a Brandon Phillips.*

In another camp, you have those that believe the Reds should trade Brandon Phillips for prospects that may someday turn into another Bronson Arroyo.

Does anybody else see the catch-22 that is going on here? Isn't there somewhere to meet in the middle?

*Obviously Saltalamacchia is a catcher and Phillips is a 2B. But by comparing the two, I mean a young, cheap player that provides plus offense at a premium defensive position. However, I would argue that BP's defense at 2B is much better than Saltalamacchia's at catcher.

westofyou
07-19-2007, 03:42 PM
Does anybody else see the catch-22 that is going on here?

Here's another one I see, The Reds can't do well now under Pete, because then the Reds will think they should hire him. But if the Reds don't do well then they get beat on like a Piñata.

bucksfan2
07-19-2007, 03:44 PM
Don't forget the ceiling for Bailey and Cueto are bull pen relievers.

Unassisted
07-19-2007, 03:46 PM
Here's another one I see, The Reds can't do well now under Pete, because then the Reds will think they should hire him. But if the Reds don't do well then they get beat on like a Piņata.

Not by me. I always favor the long view. I want the decision to replace Pete to be an easy one. Break the cycle of interim -> permanent. If the Reds have to keep the same winning percentage in the second half as they did in the first to make that a reality, it's fine with me.

registerthis
07-19-2007, 03:49 PM
Don't forget the ceiling for Bailey and Cueto are bull pen relievers.

I think there could be a lot of truth to that.

pedro
07-19-2007, 03:49 PM
Not by me. I always favor the long view. I want the decision to replace Pete to be an easy one. Break the cycle of interim -> permanent. If the Reds have to keep the same winning percentage in the second half as they did in the first to make that a reality, it's fine with me.

I think it's short sighted to rule anyone off the list of potential managers, interim or not. Would the Reds be better off with Jim Tracy than Pete Mackanin just b/c Tracy not the interim guy? I think not.

Joseph
07-19-2007, 04:03 PM
It's a simple explanation. You are dealing with several hundred different personalities and opinions.

Not every one of those opinions are expressed in every thread. So while it may look like RZ wants one thing in one thread, and something different in the next, you could be dealing with something as simple as the people who think we should trade phillips in that thread, vs a different group of people who think we should trade Arroyo in another.

It's all about the math.

princeton
07-19-2007, 04:05 PM
You are dealing with several hundred different personalities and opinions.

I count about three. Maybe four.

Benihana
07-19-2007, 04:06 PM
It's a simple explanation. You are dealing with several hundred different personalities and opinions.

Not every one of those opinions are expressed in every thread. So while it may look like RZ wants one thing in one thread, and something different in the next, you could be dealing with something as simple as the people who think we should trade phillips in that thread, vs a different group of people who think we should trade Arroyo in another.

It's all about the math.

No I understand that. It's just funny to me that some people want to trade an apple for a caterpiller. And other people want to trade a butterfly for an appleseed. Why not just keep the apple and the butterfly, and build around them? Especially when they are both signed cheaply for years to come?

westofyou
07-19-2007, 04:08 PM
I count about three. Maybe four.

6 on Mondays... maybe 7 before football season starts.

Falls City Beer
07-19-2007, 04:09 PM
I count about three. Maybe four.

But only one that counts. It's time to elbow out--say, two, three.

Danny Serafini
07-19-2007, 04:09 PM
Break the cycle of interim -> permanent.

The TBS crew broke out an interesting stat yesterday. Going back to 1982, 10 of the past 13 Reds managers were hired midseason.

westofyou
07-19-2007, 04:11 PM
The TBS crew broke out an interesting stat yesterday. Going back to 1982, 10 of the past 13 Reds managers were hired midseason.

Ones not

Lou

Tony

Ray Knight

Big Klu
07-19-2007, 04:21 PM
Ones not

Lou

Tony

Ray Knight

What about Vern Rapp and Bob Boone?

I think the TBS folks got that one wrong. Russ Nixon finished the 1983 season, but Rapp took over in 1984. And Bob Boone took the helm in 2001 after Jack McKeon was dismissed following the 2000 season.

westofyou
07-19-2007, 04:23 PM
What about Vern Rapp and Bob Boone?

duh... 10 of 15.... But then again it was Chippy with the stat, perhaps he read it wrong.

Big Klu
07-19-2007, 04:39 PM
duh... 10 of 15.... But then again it was Chippy with the stat, perhaps he read it wrong.

Actually, he got the 13 right--it's 8 out of 13.

The Reds have hired 13 managers since the beginning of the 1982 season:

Russ Nixon (midseason 1982)
Vern Rapp (prior to 1984)
Pete Rose (midseason 1984)
Tommy Helms (midseason 1989)
Lou Piniella (prior to 1990)
Tony Perez (prior to 1993)
Davey Johnson (midseason 1993)
Ray Knight (prior to 1996)
Jack McKeon (midseason 1997)
Bob Boone (prior to 2001)
Dave Miley (midseason 2003)
Jerry Narron (midseason 2005)
Pete Mackanin (midseason 2007)

Additionally, Knight (who was on the coaching staff in 2003) managed the first game after Boone was fired, because Miley was unable to join the team until the next day. But I don't know if that really counts.

Unassisted
07-19-2007, 05:17 PM
I think it's short sighted to rule anyone off the list of potential managers, interim or not. Would the Reds be better off with Jim Tracy than Pete Mackanin just b/c Tracy not the interim guy? I think not.

I agree and I even like much of what Pete has done. I didn't say I wouldn't give him credit for things he does right. I just want the choice to go a different direction in October to be easy, which is why I'm not going to gripe about things Pete does which don't go well during this interim time. I will just view them as another log on the fire for change.

The choice may not be easy in October. Real life has this annoying tendency to be messier than we'd like it to be. I could live with it being easy to keep Pete, but I want that choice to be a no-brainer. I just have yet to be won over with this small sampling of success.

Highlifeman21
07-19-2007, 06:20 PM
Don't forget the ceiling for Bailey and Cueto are bull pen relievers.

Until Bailey develops his secondary pitches and magically finds some control, he's a back of the rotation starter and or a bullpen guy.

As for Cueto, he's had 1 start at AAA? The jury's still out on him, and he's still more in the mold of "bust" than "stud".

Benihana
07-19-2007, 06:32 PM
As for Cueto, he's had 1 start at AAA? The jury's still out on him, and he's still more in the mold of "bust" than "stud".


Is that so? Exactly how would you explain this? I would LOVE to hear!

puca
07-19-2007, 06:48 PM
Short Pitchers got no reason
Short Pitchers got no reason
Short Pitchers got no reason
To live

They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet

Well, I don't want no Short Pitchers
Don't want no Short Pitchers
Don't want no Short Pitchers
Round here


Appologies to Randy Nueman

(by the way I'm just kidding around)

jojo
07-19-2007, 06:51 PM
No I understand that. It's just funny to me that some people want to trade an apple for a caterpiller. And other people want to trade a butterfly for an appleseed. Why not just keep the apple and the butterfly, and build around them? Especially when they are both signed cheaply for years to come?

I'd trade an apple, caterpillar, butterfly, and appleseed for a PBmax....

jojo
07-19-2007, 06:56 PM
Don't forget the ceiling for Bailey and Cueto are bull pen relievers.

I don't think I've heard that one for Bailey.

As for Cueto, well thats a bias all 3'7" pitchers have to deal with.... I tend to agree with those that think he'll end up in the pen versus the rotation. It's not because I care about his height though....I think he could be an electric high leverage arm in the pen.

But ulimately lets face it, the majority of minor league starting prospects (not alluding to the placeholder arms) end up either hurt and gone or in the pen if they make the dance.

Always Red
07-19-2007, 08:10 PM
I count about three. Maybe four.

Wait, I've got 3 separate personalities. :eek:

Always Red
07-19-2007, 08:12 PM
As for Cueto, well thats a bias all 3'7" pitchers have to deal with....

Freddy Norman was my favorite 3' 7" pitcher. Well, the books all said he was 5' 8", but...