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paulrichjr
07-19-2007, 10:09 PM
I have no proof but my eyes tell me that the bullpen has improved 100% since Narron was fired. I know yesterdays game (15 innings against the Braves) would have never gotten into even the 10th if Narron had managed the bullpen. Mack seems to trust the guys a lot better and spreads it out to keep guys fresh. I honestly think Krivs bullpen woes might just had been caused by on Jerry Narron. Could we have gone to October last year with Mack handling the pen?

RedFanAlways1966
07-19-2007, 10:44 PM
Could we have gone to October last year with Mack handling the pen?

No. The bullpen had a 4.40 ERA in 2006. Not great, but not as bad as this year. The bullpen had a 2.76 ERA in September last year. The starters had a 5.11 ERA in August and the offense managed 3.25 runs/game in 28 September games. The REDS were tied for 1st place on August 24, 2006. The bullpen DID NOT blow it from there until the end. Zero blown saves from that point.

mth123
07-20-2007, 01:14 AM
I have no proof but my eyes tell me that the bullpen has improved 100% since Narron was fired. I know yesterdays game (15 innings against the Braves) would have never gotten into even the 10th if Narron had managed the bullpen. Mack seems to trust the guys a lot better and spreads it out to keep guys fresh. I honestly think Krivs bullpen woes might just had been caused by on Jerry Narron. Could we have gone to October last year with Mack handling the pen?

I think Narron was a big part of what was wrong with the pen. But there is still a problem down there.

WVRedsFan
07-20-2007, 01:49 AM
I think Narron was a big part of what was wrong with the pen. But there is still a problem down there.

No doubt. The issue is how the bullpen is used. With Mac, I see some of the same things Narron did with one exception--he distributes the innings better, but still goes to the same old faces. He may have learned a lot with Stanton, but tonight Weathers was out of gas and still he put him in to save it. Mac is old school with a brain while Narron was old school without a clue.

Pete looks good only because Narron was so bad.

The sad part is that Krivsky couldn't tell that he was that bad.

RedsManRick
07-20-2007, 02:07 AM
Weathers got lucky tonight. That's 4 straight days now. After getting touched up in his 3 straight night of work, you'd like he'd give him a blow. Coffey had thrown a total of 9 pitches since the ASB and was on 2 days of rest. Maybe I'm wrong, but a fully rested Coffey with 26 pitches under his belt, or Weathers with 56 pitches, a blown save, and 6 baserunners to 1 K in 3.1 the last 3 nights running. Uggh. I'm not one to confuse the outcome with the decision. It worked, but I wouldn't want to see it ever again.

mth123
07-20-2007, 02:21 AM
I think the main difference I see is that MacKanin isn't riding his starters to the point of breaking and he isn't using so many guys for just a hitter or two (Coffey aside). He always seems to have a rested arm or two held back for the next day instead of wearing them out by throwing a full warm-up regimen in the pen each day only to come in for 1 batter.

Weathers is getting worn out because the Reds are actually playing a little better and there are more save situations. Its time make the scary decsion to give some one else a chance when Weathers is tired. Coffey would be my choice, but I think MacKanin is trying to rebuild his confidence by using him in small enough doses that he can't take a beating. I'm guessing we'll see his load increase gradually. I'd give Burton a shot.

GAC
07-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Could we have gone to October last year with Mack handling the pen?

Not when most of your offensive players, whom you counted on, performed quite offensively the last two months. ;)

paulrichjr
07-20-2007, 02:05 PM
Can anyone post numbers from the bullpen pre Mack and since Mack took over? I have no idea where to get them but I feel like they are a lot better.

A weak bullpen can make a good team horrible. I think the Reds were an average team with a guy who couldn't manage a bullpen which made us worse than horrible...

TOBTTReds
07-20-2007, 02:47 PM
I think he is managing our starters better, which allows him to use the pen more effectively. How many times would Narron leave a starter in two batters to many into a new inning, then bring Coffey in with men on. Coffey struggles against the first batter he faces, so bringing him in with men on is setting yourself up for disaster. Having the pen come in with no men on base is a much more successful scenario.

edabbs44
07-20-2007, 03:02 PM
Remember when Stanton had "turned the corner" a few weeks ago, or when McBeth and Cooter were the flavors of the month?

The bullpen was, is and will be what it is: not good. Just because they have a 2 week run of effectiveness doesn't mean they are now good. If these same posts can be made in September, I'll believe.

RedFanAlways1966
07-20-2007, 09:47 PM
Can anyone post numbers from the bullpen pre Mack and since Mack took over? I have no idea where to get them but I feel like they are a lot better.

Before tonight's game...

Narron - 2007 bullpen (82 games)
235IP, 127ER, 244H, 188K, 100BB, 28HRA
1.46 WHIP, 4.86 ERA

Mackanin - 2007 bullpen (14 games)
43.1IP, 19ER, 45H, 36K, 22BB, 6HRA
1.55 WHIP, 3.95 ERA

TOBTTReds
07-21-2007, 09:32 PM
I think he is managing our starters better, which allows him to use the pen more effectively. How many times would Narron leave a starter in two batters to many into a new inning, then bring Coffey in with men on. Coffey struggles against the first batter he faces, so bringing him in with men on is setting yourself up for disaster. Having the pen come in with no men on base is a much more successful scenario.

See what I wrote yesterday about Coffey above. He comes in today, and just blows up with men on. He just can't do it right now. Nothing he could do about the second hit, but the first was hit well.

flyer85
07-21-2007, 09:33 PM
same bullpen full of bad pitchers.

TOBTTReds
07-21-2007, 09:35 PM
OK, now Coffey is really proving what I said before. Killing him.

paulrichjr
07-22-2007, 11:35 AM
I have no proof but my eyes tell me that the bullpen has improved 100% since Narron was fired. I know yesterdays game (15 innings against the Braves) would have never gotten into even the 10th if Narron had managed the bullpen. Mack seems to trust the guys a lot better and spreads it out to keep guys fresh. I honestly think Krivs bullpen woes might just had been caused by on Jerry Narron. Could we have gone to October last year with Mack handling the pen?

Can this thread be deleted? I don't want it ever brought back up to haunt me... (The "real" bullpen is back I guess) :(

jojo
07-22-2007, 11:41 AM
Cheer up. This just means you can never run for office. :-)

redsrule2500
07-22-2007, 01:15 PM
Yeah, I support the deletion of the thread ;)

RedFanAlways1966
07-22-2007, 03:58 PM
Yeah, I support the deletion of the thread ;)

LOL, redsrule2500. You were lookin' right at first, but the good ol' small sample size gotcha. The last three games (5.1IP, 16ER) have been atrocious for the bullpen.

Narron - 2007 bullpen (82 games)
235IP, 127ER, 244H, 188K, 100BB, 28HRA
1.46 WHIP, 4.86 ERA

Mackanin - 2007 bullpen (17 games)
48.2IP, 35ER, 64H, 39K, 23BB, 8HRA
1.79 WHIP, 6.47 ERA

bucksfan2
07-23-2007, 08:58 AM
This pen is bad and I think Mackanin got a healthy dose of it this past weekend. However I think Mackanin has used it better than Narron did. I think Narron basically let the starters do what they wanted instead of making the right managerial move. I think in just under a month of managing this club Mackanin has a better feel for his pitchers than Narron ever had. I have some problems with the bullpen as it is right now.
- Saarloos seems like he has trouble controlling his pitches when he first starts. As a starter he wouldn't have the same problem because he would have hours to warm up. Now as a reliever he has to warm up and be ready to pitch in short notice.
-Coffey is not a major league reliever. The guy has pitch, an average fastball that sits at the same speed every pitch. He doesn't go to another pitch. He has a weak psyche and continues to get shelled in high pressure situations. He needs to be sent packing until he learns how to pitch.
-McBeth and Salmon all have good stuff and high upsides. It does them no good to sit in AAA and face lesser hitters while this present bullpen continues to stink. Why not let these guys take their lumps this season and let them improve as a pitcher now instead of next year when the reds get a clean slate.