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11larkin11
07-19-2007, 10:13 PM
Didn't see this posted, maybe I missed it.


MIAMI -- The timing was uncanny and entirely coincidental.
An unfounded trade rumor had circulated Thursday morning reporting that Reds left fielder Adam Dunn was traded to the Brewers. Sure enough by the same afternoon, Dunn emerged from a closed door meeting with interim manager Pete Mackanin and members of the coaching staff.

However, Dunn wasn't headed anywhere. Instead, he had something on his mind and wanted to talk with Mackanin about it.

Several times, including the previous three games vs. Atlanta, Dunn had been lifted during the late innings for Norris Hopper in left field for defensive purposes. In Tuesday's game, Cincinnati had a six-run lead in the seventh inning.

The meeting was viewed as entirely positive.

"It was a great conversation," Mackanin said. "At least he expressed it. Every manager loves players that don't want to come out of the game. He didn't come in complaining. He was expressing that he didn't like coming out. It was kind of a 'get it off your chest' good. He's fine with everything."

Although a prolific home run hitter, Dunn is considered below average defensively.

"I understand a lot of situations. I've got it. I'm not dumb," Dunn said. "We just talked about some situations. [In a] one-run game, I've got it. Sometimes, though, in the seventh inning, there's a lot of game left."

"'It's not that I think you're a bad outfielder,'" Mackanin said he told Dunn. "'Hopper is going to get to more balls and has better range. It's that easy. It's not that we think you're going to drop balls.'"

Since taking over, Mackanin said he's tried to meet with many of the players individually and build working relationships.

"It's important for them to know that I'm approachable," he said. "I prefer if they have a problem, come in and talk to me and I'll do what I can. I think players like a personal touch. It's more important for me to talk to the guys that aren't playing well and show them you're not mad at them."

"He's an easy guy to talk to," Dunn said.

Matt700wlw
07-19-2007, 10:17 PM
Today was a bit head scratching....pulled him in the 7th down by 2

redsfan4445
07-19-2007, 10:24 PM
so far the new manager is making the right choices.. Norris got a big hit in the 8th!!.. i dont make any deals till around the 31st.. lets see how far we are out after the 4 game series with Milwaukee.. i love the change in attitude on this team.. and another thing... im more interested now post-Narron!

Big Klu
07-19-2007, 10:29 PM
Today was a bit head scratching....pulled him in the 7th down by 2

I didn't agree with it either, but I think it had everything to do with trying to save the bullpen after a 15-inning game yesterday. Kc61 mentioned this in the game thread, and it made sense. A double-switch had to be made, and Dunn was the last player to bat, so he was the "lucky" guy who was removed.

I still didn't agree with it, though. But it worked out.

paulrichjr
07-19-2007, 11:24 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

Mackanin has nothing to loseposted: Thursday, July 19, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

Pete Mackanin's title is interim manager, and there is no side agreement, no guarantee that he is going to manage the Reds next year, or even tomorrow. Cincinnati could hire someone like Joe Girardi this summer or Tony La Russa in the offseason, and Mackanin would be out of a job. He is realistic about the possibilities.
"I'm in a precarious situation," he said the other day, in the visiting manager's office at Shea Stadium. "I'm aware of it."

But the circumstances are liberating for him, in a sense. He can do what he wants, when he wants to, and do everything he can to take advantage of this opportunity and help build his case to be a major league manager -- if not with the Reds, then with some other team.

So far, so good. The Reds were 31-51 on the day that Jerry Narron was fired, and there was a sense in the clubhouse that the players were drifting, not playing intensely. Cincinnati is now 9-4 since Mackanin took over, and in their most recent victory, their interim manager took the kind of chance that might go against the book, the kind of chance he feels free to take. This is from The Associated Press account of the game:


Cincinnati employed an unusual defense in the 10th to extinguish a Braves rally.
With Chipper Jones standing on third with one out and Jeff Francoeur about to hit, Reds interim manager Pete Mackanin moved center fielder Ryan Freel in front of the bag at second, and the strategy paid off.

Brandon Phillips made a leaping catch of Francoeur's liner before throwing to third baseman Jeff Keppinger to force out Jones, who had moved down the line to score the winning run. Jones' RBI double earlier in the inning off David Weathers tied it at 3.

"When I hit it, I thought the game was over," Francoeur said. "He got it, and that stunned me. And then of course he threw out Chipper. It was like a nightmare, and then the game went on for another two hours. As the game went on, it didn't seem like we were supposed to win."

Mackanin said the other day, "It's my job to come up with a scheme to have a little bit more success. ... I want to win, I want to manage in the big leagues. ... It's too easy to cover your rear end by bringing in righty-righty, lefty-lefty. You take some chances."

Mackanin recalled a conversation he had with Felipe Alou when he was a coach for Alou with the Expos. Alou had a reputation for trying different things, double steals and hit-and-runs in crazy situations, and he explained it to Mackanin: When you are the Expos and you are playing a team like the Atlanta Braves, you need to try different things. If you are Pete Mackanin and you are an interim manager and you want to be manager, permanently, you take chances.

CTA513
07-20-2007, 12:46 AM
How long will it take for this to get flipped around to make Dunn look like a selfish player?

KronoRed
07-20-2007, 01:10 AM
How long will it take for this to get flipped around to make Dunn look like a selfish player?

I'm surprised it hasn't happened already

Hey lets try one!

"Well maybe if Dunn WORKED HARDER he wouldn't be pulled late in games"

:devil:

Ron Madden
07-20-2007, 04:32 AM
I'm surprised it hasn't happened already

Hey lets try one!

"Well maybe if Dunn WORKED HARDER he wouldn't be pulled late in games"

:devil:


Dunn just doesn't care, he sucks in LF, he's not a clutch hitter, he's got a terrible batting average with runners in scoring position, hits meaningless HRs and strikes out too much.

Great Baseball Minds such as Marty Brennamen, Bad Fundamentals and Prose see all these things, we could learn something from them if only we pay attention.

:evil: ;)

icehole3
07-20-2007, 06:29 AM
Dunn just doesn't care, he sucks in LF, he's not a clutch hitter, he's got a terrible batting average with runners in scoring position, hits meaningless HRs and strikes out too much.

Great Baseball Minds such as Marty Brennamen, Bad Fundamentals and Prose see all these things, we could learn something from them if only we pay attention.

:evil: ;)

I couldnt have said it any better, there's always a reason why someone gets pulled...memo to Dunn youre defensive play this year is laughable and if anyone disagrees theyre smoking crack, he's a bad defensive outfielder, no way around that guys Im sorry.

Eric_Davis
07-20-2007, 07:28 AM
Some numbers to support Mackinen:

Hopper has 4 assists in 99 TC this year with Zero errors, and that's "hopping" around from Center to Left to Right and back again, with each park he does this in a first time experience or very new experience for him. Dunn's in his 6th year patrolling the National League Parks.

Other REDS' outfielders and their assist totals:
Hamilton has 6 assists in 177 chances with 2 errors.
Junior has 3 assists in 171 chances with 3 errors.
Dunn has 2 assists in 149 chances with 4 errors.
Freel has 1 assist in 106 chances with 2 errors.

Hopper's assists have come from every outfield position.

Where Hopper excels at nailing runners, he's more exceptional in his ability to cover a larger area than anyone else on the team, and it's a huge difference not a marginal one. Someone might say small sample size, but then it would be different for the different positions. Hopper's numbers are consistent no matter which outfield position he's playing. We have possibly one of the best defensive outfielders in the game in Hopper. So, yes. It's a no-brainer to substitute him for Dunn in late-inning situations all the time.

In Left Field Hopper's Range Factor is 3.11 and Zone Rating is .972
Dunn's is 1.81 and .839
Hamilton's Range Factor in LF is 1.67 I remember how clutsy Hamilton looked at times out there this year. It was obvious he'd been away from the game for three years and then all of a sudden had to play outfield in the Major Leagues. That was a tall task for anyone, yet alone Hamilton. Hamilton will get better with more experience. Dunn won't.

Hopper's other numbers: In Center Field: Range Factor of 3.28 and Zone Rating of .905
Hamilton in Center Field: Range Factor of 2.81 and Zone Rating of .870
Freel in Center Field: Range Factor of 2.68 and Zone Rating of .842

Hopper's numbers in Right Field: Range Factor of 3.18 and Zone Rating of .857
Griffey's Range Factor is .207 and Zone Rating is .819
Hamilton's Range Factor in Right Field is 3.11 and Zone Rating is .900

Hopper obviously has exceptional numbers, but these only tell half the story of defense. You get the other half through watching him in person, and those that see him "in person", not on TV, get the whole picture of just how much ground he covers, and how runners are shocked at how quickly he gets to a ball, thus his ability to get the assist as they underestimate how much time they have to get to the next base.

Hopper's a valuable weapon defensively for the REDS and saves many a run for the pitchers, who have to love it when he's playing behind them.

RBA
07-20-2007, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the numbers ED, but most fans of baseball can tell with their own two eyes the rankings of the Reds outfield. It's really a simple matter.

Always Red
07-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Dunn just doesn't care, he sucks in LF, he's not a clutch hitter, he's got a terrible batting average with runners in scoring position, hits meaningless HRs and strikes out too much.

Great Baseball Minds such as Marty Brennamen, Bad Fundamentals and Prose see all these things, we could learn something from them if only we pay attention.

:evil: ;)

Eric_Davis posted some nice numbers that support what Pete Mack is doing; I have no problem with Dunn coming out at the end of games for defensive purposes. But I'd wait till the 9th,, in games the Reds are winning.

As for what is written above, by Ron Madden, well, I have a little story to tell. Last night we convened "Man Club" (well, that's what my daughters call it anyway) in my hot tub, cigars, a few beers, and Marty on the radio. We sat there for an hour, and it coincided with Freels' Hr and the Weathers closing out the game.

Now my buddies know I am a diehard fan, and also conceded that I know more baseball than they do; they are casual fans. But what I heard from them blew me away, and reinforced everything I read here.

"Adam Dunn is awful, he's the worst defender in baseball, he absolutely cannot hit unless the Reds are way behind or way in front, they need to get rid of him. Ryan Freel is the best leadoff man in the game. He's like Pete Rose. Why hasn't he won any Gold Gloves- that's a travesty right there. If we had a lineup full of guys like him, it'd be great. Norris Hopper should be playing LF every day instead of Adam Dunn. Dave Ross is just in a little slump, he'll be OK. When they trade Junior away, he'll probably move back to CF, which is his best position. The Reds pitching is much better this year than it's been in quite some time. Jerry Narron was a huge jerk. At Redsfest, we stood in line waiting to get his autograph, and then he left when his cell phone rang. Man, I can't believe what a jerk that guy was, I'm glad he got fired."

Well, I was nearly speechless, and tried to refute all of these assertions with true facts, but was outvoted- majority rules. I was told Marty Brennaman has seen far more baseball than I have, and if he says something is true, then by Golly, it is. Now, other than the Narron story at Redsfest, this is what you hear from the average Reds fan. Jerry is a lot of things, a very pedestrian manager certainly, but is absolutely NOT a jerk. This was just one guy's story, though. He was just pissed that he didn't get an autograph when he wanted it.

Where do they get this info? From the radio. From the TV. Most Reds fans get their opinions from Marty, JB, Thom, George and Chris. Most Reds fans are casual fans of the game, who are actually ignorant of what is really going on. I tried to explain how Freel's OBP is abysmal, and how all that diving around leads to more triples than anything, and how getting picked off is really a bad thing, and I was literally shouted down. I sat there, smoked the rest of my stogie, and thought about it some more.

The broadcast crew has a responsibility to get things right. This involves the use of stats to decide who is awful and who isn't.

These guys do more than just tell a story; they shape opinion, too. They have a responsibility to get it right, and support their own opinions with fact.

RichRed
07-20-2007, 09:15 AM
"I understand a lot of situations. I've got it. I'm not dumb," Dunn said. "We just talked about some situations. [In a] one-run game, I've got it. Sometimes, though, in the seventh inning, there's a lot of game left."

Dunn's right - he's not dumb. How many times has he been pulled from a game with a lead only to watch the bullpen lose it and then watch far inferior hitters like Hopper (or Freel the other day) get the ABs he should be getting to try to win the game late? I'm sure it's frustrating.

Unless there's about a 10-run lead with this bullpen, I take my chances with Dunn in left and his bat in the lineup.

dabvu2498
07-20-2007, 09:38 AM
How many times has he been pulled from a game with a lead only to watch the bullpen lose it and then watch far inferior hitters like Hopper (or Freel the other day) get the ABs he should be getting to try to win the game late? I'm sure it's frustrating.


B-R's gamelogs says they've only lost one game that he's been removed from this season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=dunnad01&t=b

April 19th vs. the Astros when he was removed before the 8th in a double switch with the Reds up 6-2. In that game, his position in the lineup didn't come around again and they lost 8-6.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200704190.shtml

GAC
07-20-2007, 09:47 AM
I don't know why; but does anybody else think this statement by Pete is hilarious? I keep getting this image of him standing well behind the desk and out of reach while he makes it to Adam....


"'It's not that I think you're a bad outfielder,'" Mackanin said he told Dunn. "'Hopper is going to get to more balls and has better range. It's that easy. It's not that we think you're going to drop balls.'"

I guess if I had a guy 6' 6" and 266 lbs standing in my office I wouldn't tell him he was a bad OFer who sometimes demonstates the poise and agility of a 3 legged cow! :lol:

But it makes one wonder why he doesn't do late inning defensive substitutions for Jr in RF, because Jr has definitely lost range IMO.

nate
07-20-2007, 10:07 AM
B-R's gamelogs says they've only lost one game that he's been removed from this season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=dunnad01&t=b

April 19th vs. the Astros when he was removed before the 8th in a double switch with the Reds up 6-2. In that game, his position in the lineup didn't come around again and they lost 8-6.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200704190.shtml

That's pretty interesting!

I still think NoHo is like Freel with a little more sense. He can cover ground because he's fast but he doesn't make good choices in the outfield. Sometimes, that speed kills because you think you can make the play but you'd be much better backing off and fielding the ball cleanly.

If you just want someone who can cover a lot of ground in, say the 9th with a 3 or 4 run lead and Dunn's spot not due up, then he's your man. Otherwise, leave the lumberjack in there.

Big Klu
07-20-2007, 10:17 AM
But it makes one wonder why he doesn't do late inning defensive substitutions for Jr in RF, because Jr has definitely lost range IMO.

Probably because the Reds only have one backup OF, and he's being used for Dunn.

BRM
07-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Probably because the Reds only have one backup OF, and he's being used for Dunn.

I think Keppinger played some outfield in Louisville. I don't know how well he played out there though.

KronoRed
07-20-2007, 10:33 AM
But it makes one wonder why he doesn't do late inning defensive substitutions for Jr in RF, because Jr has definitely lost range IMO.

Hall of famers don't get pulled from games :D

WVRedsFan
07-20-2007, 10:46 AM
Hall of famers don't get pulled from games :D

Well, I fully understand the purpose of defensive replacements. If you have a short lead, a defensive replacement is mandatory if you think you have enough runs. Unfortunately, with this team, there are never enough runs (the last few games notwithstanding). Regardless of the statistics posted earlier in this thread, and if I were the manager, I'd want the Dunn and Griffey bats in the lineup just in case we lost the lead or the game becomes tied. Nothing bothers me more than to see the 3-5 positions up ocupied with Castro, Hopper, or any number of other lesser hitters when we went into an inning with a 4 run lead that becomes a 1 run deficit.

Of course, I'm pretty short-sighted on things like this and my record in managing still stands at 17-14 in Little League many years ago, so I'm no expert.

MartyFan
07-20-2007, 11:07 AM
I personally don't care if he finds a 9 year old little leaguer to come in for Dunn in a game if the little leaguer has better defense and the team wins.

nate
07-20-2007, 11:28 AM
I personally don't care if he finds a 9 year old little leaguer to come in for Dunn in a game if the little leaguer has better defense and the team wins.

And won't need his bat later.

You might be on to something. We could pay him in gum and soda (before arbitration).

CTA513
07-20-2007, 02:12 PM
Some numbers to support Mackinen:

Hopper has 4 assists in 99 TC this year with Zero errors, and that's "hopping" around from Center to Left to Right and back again, with each park he does this in a first time experience or very new experience for him. Dunn's in his 6th year patrolling the National League Parks.

Other REDS' outfielders and their assist totals:
Hamilton has 6 assists in 177 chances with 2 errors.
Junior has 3 assists in 171 chances with 3 errors.
Dunn has 2 assists in 149 chances with 4 errors.
Freel has 1 assist in 106 chances with 2 errors.


Griffey has 6 errors.

icehole3
07-20-2007, 04:10 PM
Griffey has 6 errors.

not bad for a guy learning a new position

Eric_Davis
07-20-2007, 04:44 PM
I don't know why; but does anybody else think this statement by Pete is hilarious? I keep getting this image of him standing well behind the desk and out of reach while he makes it to Adam....



I guess if I had a guy 6' 6" and 266 lbs standing in my office I wouldn't tell him he was a bad OFer who sometimes demonstates the poise and agility of a 3 legged cow! :lol:

But it makes one wonder why he doesn't do late inning defensive substitutions for Jr in RF, because Jr has definitely lost range IMO.

Thats's true, but there's only one Hopper. Freel doesn't have much more Range than Junior because he screws it up in so many other ways by misplaying the ball or getting a bad jump. Hopper can only go to one spot, and it won't be Center because Hamilton or Freel will already be out there, and more balls are hit to LF, so that's where he goes.

Eric_Davis
07-20-2007, 04:47 PM
Griffey has 6 errors. It was late, thanks. It's really strange that I can't edit it.

TOBTTReds
07-20-2007, 04:48 PM
not bad for a guy learning a new position

Also, errors for outfielders are meaningless unless you have about 20. Most of those 6 errors were on ground balls that he bobbled and misplays after a hit occured.

Also, icehole, did you know that Ron Madden was joking. You answered him seriously, and I think RM was 100% joking, then you say "I couldn't have said it better." maybe i missed something.

Matt700wlw
07-20-2007, 04:49 PM
Also, errors for outfielders are meaningless

Unless your name is Adam Dunn ;)

VR
07-20-2007, 04:54 PM
I guess Adam charged in there and told him to stop pulling him in the 8th inning.

So he pulled him in the 7th.

Problem solved.

Reds1
07-20-2007, 04:58 PM
so far the new manager is making the right choices.. Norris got a big hit in the 8th!!.. i dont make any deals till around the 31st.. lets see how far we are out after the 4 game series with Milwaukee.. i love the change in attitude on this team.. and another thing... im more interested now post-Narron!

Winning will do that! :)

Falls City Beer
07-20-2007, 05:03 PM
Hopper's a pretty awful outfielder himself. He's fast, but he takes atrocious routes to balls. He looks a bit like Deion out there at times.

RedsBaron
07-20-2007, 05:08 PM
Hopper's a pretty awful outfielder himself. He's fast, but he takes atrocious routes to balls. He looks a bit like Deion out there at times.

He's scrappy. ;)

MartyFan
07-20-2007, 05:49 PM
And won't need his bat later.

You might be on to something. We could pay him in gum and soda (before arbitration).

That's the spirit!!! :beerme:

Eric_Davis
07-20-2007, 08:05 PM
Hopper's a pretty awful outfielder himself. He's fast, but he takes atrocious routes to balls. He looks a bit like Deion out there at times.

If you've seen that, it comes from his limited amount of time at each of the RF, CF, LF positions for every stadium he is seeing for the very first time.

Eric_Davis
07-20-2007, 08:06 PM
.

TOBTTReds
07-20-2007, 08:10 PM
Hopper's a pretty awful outfielder himself. He's fast, but he takes atrocious routes to balls. He looks a bit like Deion out there at times.

For probably the first time ever, I'm 100% with you on this.

Ron Madden
07-21-2007, 02:46 AM
I couldnt have said it any better, there's always a reason why someone gets pulled...memo to Dunn youre defensive play this year is laughable and if anyone disagrees theyre smoking crack, he's a bad defensive outfielder, no way around that guys Im sorry.

My post was meant to be sarcastic.

Sorry for not making my point very clear, but thank you for reinforcing my original point.

Ron Madden
07-21-2007, 02:58 AM
Eric_Davis posted some nice numbers that support what Pete Mack is doing; I have no problem with Dunn coming out at the end of games for defensive purposes. But I'd wait till the 9th,, in games the Reds are winning.

As for what is written above, by Ron Madden, well, I have a little story to tell. Last night we convened "Man Club" (well, that's what my daughters call it anyway) in my hot tub, cigars, a few beers, and Marty on the radio. We sat there for an hour, and it coincided with Freels' Hr and the Weathers closing out the game.

Now my buddies know I am a diehard fan, and also conceded that I know more baseball than they do; they are casual fans. But what I heard from them blew me away, and reinforced everything I read here.

"Adam Dunn is awful, he's the worst defender in baseball, he absolutely cannot hit unless the Reds are way behind or way in front, they need to get rid of him. Ryan Freel is the best leadoff man in the game. He's like Pete Rose. Why hasn't he won any Gold Gloves- that's a travesty right there. If we had a lineup full of guys like him, it'd be great. Norris Hopper should be playing LF every day instead of Adam Dunn. Dave Ross is just in a little slump, he'll be OK. When they trade Junior away, he'll probably move back to CF, which is his best position. The Reds pitching is much better this year than it's been in quite some time. Jerry Narron was a huge jerk. At Redsfest, we stood in line waiting to get his autograph, and then he left when his cell phone rang. Man, I can't believe what a jerk that guy was, I'm glad he got fired."

Well, I was nearly speechless, and tried to refute all of these assertions with true facts, but was outvoted- majority rules. I was told Marty Brennaman has seen far more baseball than I have, and if he says something is true, then by Golly, it is. Now, other than the Narron story at Redsfest, this is what you hear from the average Reds fan. Jerry is a lot of things, a very pedestrian manager certainly, but is absolutely NOT a jerk. This was just one guy's story, though. He was just pissed that he didn't get an autograph when he wanted it.

Where do they get this info? From the radio. From the TV. Most Reds fans get their opinions from Marty, JB, Thom, George and Chris. Most Reds fans are casual fans of the game, who are actually ignorant of what is really going on. I tried to explain how Freel's OBP is abysmal, and how all that diving around leads to more triples than anything, and how getting picked off is really a bad thing, and I was literally shouted down. I sat there, smoked the rest of my stogie, and thought about it some more.

The broadcast crew has a responsibility to get things right. This involves the use of stats to decide who is awful and who isn't.

These guys do more than just tell a story; they shape opinion, too. They have a responsibility to get it right, and support their own opinions with fact.


I'm in full agreement with you AR. Misinformation is never a good thing.

:beerme:

Ron Madden
07-21-2007, 03:12 AM
Some numbers to support Mackinen:

Hopper has 4 assists in 99 TC this year with Zero errors, and that's "hopping" around from Center to Left to Right and back again, with each park he does this in a first time experience or very new experience for him. Dunn's in his 6th year patrolling the National League Parks.

Other REDS' outfielders and their assist totals:
Hamilton has 6 assists in 177 chances with 2 errors.
Junior has 3 assists in 171 chances with 3 errors.
Dunn has 2 assists in 149 chances with 4 errors.
Freel has 1 assist in 106 chances with 2 errors.

Hopper's assists have come from every outfield position.

Where Hopper excels at nailing runners, he's more exceptional in his ability to cover a larger area than anyone else on the team, and it's a huge difference not a marginal one. Someone might say small sample size, but then it would be different for the different positions. Hopper's numbers are consistent no matter which outfield position he's playing. We have possibly one of the best defensive outfielders in the game in Hopper. So, yes. It's a no-brainer to substitute him for Dunn in late-inning situations all the time.

In Left Field Hopper's Range Factor is 3.11 and Zone Rating is .972
Dunn's is 1.81 and .839
Hamilton's Range Factor in LF is 1.67 I remember how clutsy Hamilton looked at times out there this year. It was obvious he'd been away from the game for three years and then all of a sudden had to play outfield in the Major Leagues. That was a tall task for anyone, yet alone Hamilton. Hamilton will get better with more experience. Dunn won't.

Hopper's other numbers: In Center Field: Range Factor of 3.28 and Zone Rating of .905
Hamilton in Center Field: Range Factor of 2.81 and Zone Rating of .870
Freel in Center Field: Range Factor of 2.68 and Zone Rating of .842

Hopper's numbers in Right Field: Range Factor of 3.18 and Zone Rating of .857
Griffey's Range Factor is .207 and Zone Rating is .819
Hamilton's Range Factor in Right Field is 3.11 and Zone Rating is .900

Hopper obviously has exceptional numbers, but these only tell half the story of defense. You get the other half through watching him in person, and those that see him "in person", not on TV, get the whole picture of just how much ground he covers, and how runners are shocked at how quickly he gets to a ball, thus his ability to get the assist as they underestimate how much time they have to get to the next base.

Hopper's a valuable weapon defensively for the REDS and saves many a run for the pitchers, who have to love it when he's playing behind them.

I think it's silly to replace an offensive threat that hits in the middle of your batting order for defense in LF during a close game.

icehole3
07-21-2007, 07:13 AM
My post was meant to be sarcastic.

Sorry for not making my point very clear, but thank you for reinforcing my original point.

no problem, he's a horrible horrible outfielder and has no right to open his piehole when it comes to defense.

GAC
07-21-2007, 07:50 AM
Hall of famers don't get pulled from games :D

He does when he pulls something. ;)

Who played RF Friday night?

I have no problem at all with Hopper being used as a defensive replacement late in the game. But it really depends on certain variables. But more importantly... is it a close game, and is Stanton coming in? :mooner:

RFS62
07-21-2007, 08:15 AM
Where do they get this info? From the radio. From the TV. Most Reds fans get their opinions from Marty, JB, Thom, George and Chris. Most Reds fans are casual fans of the game, who are actually ignorant of what is really going on. I tried to explain how Freel's OBP is abysmal, and how all that diving around leads to more triples than anything, and how getting picked off is really a bad thing, and I was literally shouted down. I sat there, smoked the rest of my stogie, and thought about it some more.

The broadcast crew has a responsibility to get things right. This involves the use of stats to decide who is awful and who isn't.

These guys do more than just tell a story; they shape opinion, too. They have a responsibility to get it right, and support their own opinions with fact.


Excellent post. I believe you've hit the nail on the head. The casual fan, who outnumbers RedsZoner types a bazillion to one, gets his information from the talking heads. And their word is passed down from Abner Doubleday himself, in daily visions.



B-R's gamelogs says they've only lost one game that he's been removed from this season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=dunnad01&t=b

April 19th vs. the Astros when he was removed before the 8th in a double switch with the Reds up 6-2. In that game, his position in the lineup didn't come around again and they lost 8-6.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200704190.shtml


Great work, Dabvu. Outstanding.



I guess Adam charged in there and told him to stop pulling him in the 8th inning.

So he pulled him in the 7th.

Problem solved.


Hilarious. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

jojo
07-21-2007, 09:25 AM
I don't know why; but does anybody else think this statement by Pete is hilarious? I keep getting this image of him standing well behind the desk and out of reach while he makes it to Adam....



I guess if I had a guy 6' 6" and 266 lbs standing in my office I wouldn't tell him he was a bad OFer who sometimes demonstates the poise and agility of a 3 legged cow! :lol:

But it makes one wonder why he doesn't do late inning defensive substitutions for Jr in RF, because Jr has definitely lost range IMO.

Since range is probably 70% of playing defense, especially in the outfield, there could be no greater criticism of Dunn's defense than replacing him in high leverage situations because of his range.

For Dunn to be OK with the situation after that conversation, we'd have to believe it went something like this:

Adam: "Me want play more".

Pete: "Adam, it's not that you're a bad outfielder, it's just that you're not a very good outfielder"

Adam: "Me catch ball".

Pete: "Adam it's not that you don't catch the ball, you just don't catch enough."

Adam: "Me not good?"

Pete: " Adam, it's not that you're not good, it's that you're not not bad. Here's a lollipop"

Adam: "Oh, goody! Me go to locker now."


Pete (afterward in his office to a reporter): "I clearly explained to Dunn that he's lousy and he perfectly understood because, well, I'm a gifted communicator with a long future as a manager".

Reporter: "Curiously, advanced play-by-play based defensive metrics suggest that Jr has been much worse defensively in right than Dunn has been in left. Since right field is further right on the defensive spectrum than left, shouldn't Jr be the one getting spelled late in games-especially since it would save some wear and tear on Jr?"

Pete: "Well it's not that Jr is not a worse defender than Dunn it's just that Jr is not, not a......"

Reporter: " Oh no! My laptop is starting to smoke!!!!!!!!!"

My initial impressions of Pete is that I have no idea what his guiding philosophies are yet (or if he really has some). He's made stat-based arguments using 7 at bats as a justification and applied some sound principals unevenly (cases in point-defensive substitutions and pitcher usage...he's pulled back on the starters but runs Weathers out for four straight games?). Best case scenario? Pete is a competent manager. Worst case scenario? He's like listening to "the Cutman" talking baseball (i.e. if he's on in the background, he sounds intelligent. If you actually listen to and think about what he's saying, he's scary bad).

Anyway, say what you want about Dunn but he's a competitor (and a college educated one). The fact that we haven't heard a peep of complaint about this from his own mouth speaks volumes about him as a person and a teammate IMHO.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-21-2007, 02:56 PM
Now my buddies know I am a diehard fan, and also conceded that I know more baseball than they do; they are casual fans. But what I heard from them blew me away, and reinforced everything I read here.

"Adam Dunn is awful, he's the worst defender in baseball, he absolutely cannot hit unless the Reds are way behind or way in front, they need to get rid of him. Ryan Freel is the best leadoff man in the game. He's like Pete Rose. Why hasn't he won any Gold Gloves- that's a travesty right there. If we had a lineup full of guys like him, it'd be great. Norris Hopper should be playing LF every day instead of Adam Dunn. Dave Ross is just in a little slump, he'll be OK.

It's it scary how many people feel this way. It has gotten to a point where I stay away from discussions on the Reds at the water cooler with co-workers or the pub with my softball buddies. It is so frustrating and just doesn't seem to be worth the aggravation anymore.

Last summer after a softball game, I'm sitting at the bar with a couple buddies and they knowing I'm the Reds "expert" of our group of friends, ask me what I think of Juan Castro acquisition and his scrappy D. I was in a pretty foul mood that night and I tell them I think he's pretty much the bane of my existence. Some guy sitting across the bar hears it, smiles, rolls his eyes and then starts talking rather loudly to his buddy on how I'm crazy for thinking "manos de oro" sucks eggs and what a great addition he's been, blah blah blah. He's talking just loud enough for me to hear it. Like I said, I already was in a foul mood and I certainly was in no mood for banana-phone caller man butting in on my conversation, so I told him to shut the hell up. I seriously almost come to blows with this guy over freaking Juan Castro! Sad. Later on I was pretty upset with myself that I would get that angry with a complete stranger.

Since then I have vowed to stay away from any Reds talk with the common "casual" fan and will try my best to stay away from call-in shows. I wish it didn't bother me, but I just can't help it.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 03:53 PM
I seriously almost come to blows with this guy over freaking Juan Castro! Sad.

Juan Castro strikes again...even when he's not there. :D