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BearcatShane
07-20-2007, 12:37 AM
and I don't know if they do or don't but if they do they should tell him they are going to trade him for the best possible deal in the next 11 days no matter what the deal is and they will negotiate a new contract when free agency starts.

mroby85
07-20-2007, 12:52 AM
no way! the guy does one thing well, and that is hits home runs.

he plays terrible defense, is a liability on the base paths, he strikes out a TON! hits horrible with RISP, and just from watching him every game, he appears lazy to me.

i don't even want dunn back, they need to spend that money on something more productive.

Screwball
07-20-2007, 01:13 AM
Awesome, I was hoping we could get a good Dunn debate going on around here. I wonder if anybody will point out how often Dunn strikes out? :rolleyes:

jfleur87
07-20-2007, 01:37 AM
i'm all for trading dunn for the interest of the team, and then seeing if we can't resign him through free agency. Not sure how he would take that idea, has that ever been done on purpose before by other teams? anyone?

mound_patrol
07-20-2007, 01:51 AM
no way! the guy does one thing well, and that is hits home runs.

he plays terrible defense, is a liability on the base paths, he strikes out a TON! hits horrible with RISP, and just from watching him every game, he appears lazy to me.

i don't even want dunn back, they need to spend that money on something more productive.

I guess I'll be the first to back Dunn in this thread. I'm glad that how you view Dunn is by strikeouts, which is only part of the equation that measures OBP and OPS, and by you watching him and his personality and assuming he is lazy. Again Dunn is very good at avoiding outs and getting on base. Dunn is well on his way to 100+ RBI's and well over 40 Hrs and 100 runs. And yes, what a liability on the basepaths. The guy is only the most efficient base stealer the Reds have had the past two seasons. But I'm sure Ryan Freel and Norris Hopper playing everyday with their 300 OBP's would make the team so much better.

AmarilloRed
07-20-2007, 02:18 AM
I will be the second. He consistantly walks 80-100 times, hits 40 hr, drives in 90-100 RBI, and scores 100 runs. I am willing to concede he strikeouts too much and does not hit well enough in scoring position.He also could play better defense. He is worth at least his 13 million option and I would look into giving him an extension; at least until another Reds outfielder approaches his offensive production.

ChatterRed
07-20-2007, 02:20 AM
I was all ready to trade up until about 3 weeks ago. Now I'm ready to extend him and fix the bullpen and take our chances.

We have nothing to replace him.

tripleaaaron
07-20-2007, 02:32 AM
I'm all for trading Dunn. I don't think that he however lacks production, or is a bad player, etc. I'm all for trading Dunn, because he is a luxury player. He projects more as a DH, and as a small market franchise we need to maximize value at each position. Dunn is perhaps one of the best power hitters in the game, but with our budget we need a more complete player for the dollar.

Degenerate39
07-20-2007, 08:55 AM
I guess I'll be the first to back Dunn in this thread. I'm glad that how you view Dunn is by strikeouts, which is only part of the equation that measures OBP and OPS, and by you watching him and his personality and assuming he is lazy. Again Dunn is very good at avoiding outs and getting on base. Dunn is well on his way to 100+ RBI's and well over 40 Hrs and 100 runs. And yes, what a liability on the basepaths. The guy is only the most efficient base stealer the Reds have had the past two seasons. But I'm sure Ryan Freel and Norris Hopper playing everyday with their 300 OBP's would make the team so much better.


I will be the second. He consistantly walks 80-100 times, hits 40 hr, drives in 90-100 RBI, and scores 100 runs. I am willing to concede he strikeouts too much and does not hit well enough in scoring position.He also could play better defense. He is worth at least his 13 million option and I would look into giving him an extension; at least until another Reds outfielder approaches his offensive production.

I will be the third. You can't replace Dunn's "bad defense" and good offense with Freel or Hopper's decent defense and bad offense. I don't care how bad of a fielder you are if you hit 40 home runs a year, drive in 100 RBIs, score 100 runs, and walk 100 times that makes up for bad defense.

Chi-Town Red
07-20-2007, 09:00 AM
keep Dunn...if you want to win at GABP...pitching wont do it...you need to score runs...Freel, and Hopper wont win you enough games

TheWalls
07-20-2007, 09:59 AM
and I don't know if they do or don't but if they do they should tell him they are going to trade him for the best possible deal in the next 11 days no matter what the deal is and they will negotiate a new contract when free agency starts.

I don't think Dunn is loyal enough to the Reds to play this game. Having said this, it's a personal favorite when you can trade a guy for something and then resign him over the winter. Reds did that with Mercker a couple of times didn't they?

Fil3232
07-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Dunn is no Gold Glove LF, that is for certain. However, I think his defensive inefficiencies are much exaggerrated. For my money, he is about a league average LF, maybe slightly below average. For his production though, you better believe I want him on my team playing every day. LF, like 1B is an area where a team doesn't really have to have all-world defense. If you can find a player that combines Dunn's offense with the defense of Hopper great, but it's going to be a long summer next year if we have to watch Hopper try and replace Dunn's production.

For a guy that is top ten in the NL in HR, RBI, R, and BB he sure does draw a lot of criticism. I swear sometimes the people of Cincinnati would rather have a Pete Rose clone, real production be-damned, than a bonafide run-producer.

BLEEDS
07-20-2007, 11:50 AM
and I don't know if they do or don't but if they do they should tell him they are going to trade him for the best possible deal in the next 11 days no matter what the deal is and they will negotiate a new contract when free agency starts.

How old are you?

This is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What's your back-up plan, tell him they are going to hold their breath until they turn blue?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Chip R
07-20-2007, 12:03 PM
How old are you?

This is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What's your back-up plan, tell him they are going to hold their breath until they turn blue?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS


I think you can get your point across just as well without being so rude.

bounty37h
07-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I'm all for trading Dunn. I don't think that he however lacks production, or is a bad player, etc. I'm all for trading Dunn, because he is a luxury player. He projects more as a DH, and as a small market franchise we need to maximize value at each position. Dunn is perhaps one of the best power hitters in the game, but with our budget we need a more complete player for the dollar.

I think with ALL of the threads and posts on this subject, your wording has done the best justice of summing up my feelings on Dunn. At teh same time, if we dont get a great trade for him, I am all for keeping him around as well for now.

mound_patrol
07-20-2007, 01:35 PM
At the All Star break Dunn with an average season had 10 win shares for the Reds. Jr was the only guy ahead of him with 12 and he is having a great season. I think it'll be pretty tough to find a LFer who can match Dunns 20 winshares a season.

BLEEDS
07-20-2007, 01:37 PM
Dunn is perhaps one of the best power hitters in the game, but with our budget we need a more complete player for the dollar.

SO, how do you propose to get MORE (complete) for the same or less dollar?

$13M - it's Free Agency time. Give me your proposals.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

mroby85
07-20-2007, 02:29 PM
first of all, i don't remember anyone saying hopper and freel should be the starting outfielders next year, but that is something you address in the offseason. we also have young prospects in jay bruce, and joey votto who just got moved to left field, so i assume that is where he'll be playing when he comes up. you also could possibly look at signing torii hunter, or andruw jones. andruw jones has about the same kind of bat as dunn, but he plays great GREAT defense, and is a right handed bat which would be a nice fit for this team. you may bring up the point that he's hitting around 215 this year, and only has about 15 hr's, but what does that tell you if he has the same amount of rbi's as dunn? he must hit with RISP. not to mention this is way below his average season.
also, you can tell if a player is lazy by the way they conduct themselves on the field. look at the play against NY last sunday when freel had to run about 100 feet to catch one that was only a few steps from dunn. look at the way he doesn't dig when he's running down the first base line. and don't bring up griffey, because he has screws in his leg, and is just playing smart to stay in the lineup.
one last thing, why the heck do people think you aren't going to bring up strikeouts when you're talking about adam dunn? you sure didn't waste any time bringing up his home runs.

AmarilloRed
07-20-2007, 02:39 PM
I am pretty sure Votto will be at first, barring a catastrophe. I have heard he is worse than Dunn in left. Bruce is probably 1-2 years away. As for free agents, any comparable free agent would cost the same or more money than Dunn. We have Freel and Hopper as outfielders right now, and we have to play with what outfielders we have.

Cigar2
07-20-2007, 02:49 PM
Yes, yes..... Let's trade Adam HE SUCK'S..... Let's trade him for some magic beans and scraps.
All because he strikes out to much and isn't scrappy enough and isn't the second coming of Pete Rose.:eek:

mound_patrol
07-20-2007, 02:51 PM
first of all, i don't remember anyone saying hopper and freel should be the starting outfielders next year, but that is something you address in the offseason. we also have young prospects in jay bruce, and joey votto who just got moved to left field, so i assume that is where he'll be playing when he comes up. you also could possibly look at signing torii hunter, or andruw jones. andruw jones has about the same kind of bat as dunn, but he plays great GREAT defense, and is a right handed bat which would be a nice fit for this team. you may bring up the point that he's hitting around 215 this year, and only has about 15 hr's, but what does that tell you if he has the same amount of rbi's as dunn? he must hit with RISP. not to mention this is way below his average season.
also, you can tell if a player is lazy by the way they conduct themselves on the field. look at the play against NY last sunday when freel had to run about 100 feet to catch one that was only a few steps from dunn. look at the way he doesn't dig when he's running down the first base line. and don't bring up griffey, because he has screws in his leg, and is just playing smart to stay in the lineup.
one last thing, why the heck do people think you aren't going to bring up strikeouts when you're talking about adam dunn? you sure didn't waste any time bringing up his home runs.

Andruw Jones use to play great defense. ANdruw Jones is hitting 150 points lower than Dunn in OPS, but hey, he does have like 20 less K's so he must be worth the 16 million a year he would want. And most likely Jones is only going to sign a one year deal this year unless he really turns it up to gain a high priced long term contract.
As for running down the line. Sure if the ball is a hopper to second he doesnt bust down the line because it's not going to do anything for him. But watch Dunn if he hits a double play ball. He'll run hard to try and beat it out. I think you see his big lumbering body and assume hes not hustling. And again i'll say hes got 8 stolen bases, and his two caught steals are a batter interferance and some other weird play if i remember.
You want to bring up K's that fine. But like I said the main stats are OBP and OPS. Sure K's go into that, but his stats are still really good.
And I love how Jr gets a pass because of a past injury even though he's perfectly fine to run. But junior is just "playing smart".

Degenerate39
07-20-2007, 03:07 PM
first of all, i don't remember anyone saying hopper and freel should be the starting outfielders next year, but that is something you address in the offseason. we also have young prospects in jay bruce, and joey votto who just got moved to left field, so i assume that is where he'll be playing when he comes up. you also could possibly look at signing torii hunter, or andruw jones. andruw jones has about the same kind of bat as dunn, but he plays great GREAT defense, and is a right handed bat which would be a nice fit for this team. you may bring up the point that he's hitting around 215 this year, and only has about 15 hr's, but what does that tell you if he has the same amount of rbi's as dunn? he must hit with RISP. not to mention this is way below his average season.

Joey Votto has played 19 games in left field and the rest at first base. He hasn't been moved there.

It'll be a while before Jay Bruce is even up with the Reds.

Andruw Jones and Torre Hunter will be more expensive than Adam Dunn.

BLEEDS
07-20-2007, 03:26 PM
Andrew Jones?!? For $13M, you MIGHT get him for 100 games. For 162 Games, I'd expect you're going to have to pay Ichiro money.

Torri Hunter would be nice. HOWEVER, do we need a Center Fielder, over 30?!?!

If this is the "more complete player for the dollar" argument, it's not holding water...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

mroby85
07-21-2007, 01:57 AM
do you think that could be because andruw jones is worth more? just a thought.

AmarilloRed
07-21-2007, 02:14 AM
All the threads really boil down to one simple question- Do the Reds think they can keep Adam on the team for 13 million dollars? If they do, they will pick up his option and work on a short extension. Wayne Krivsky already signed Adam to a 2 year deal because he had no alternative. I can see him picking up the option and either trading Dunn next year or working on another extension, at least until the Reds minor league system produce a comparable outfielder to Adam.

REDblooded
07-21-2007, 07:32 AM
I guess I'll be the first to back Dunn in this thread. I'm glad that how you view Dunn is by strikeouts, which is only part of the equation that measures OBP and OPS, and by you watching him and his personality and assuming he is lazy. Again Dunn is very good at avoiding outs and getting on base. Dunn is well on his way to 100+ RBI's and well over 40 Hrs and 100 runs. And yes, what a liability on the basepaths. The guy is only the most efficient base stealer the Reds have had the past two seasons. But I'm sure Ryan Freel and Norris Hopper playing everyday with their 300 OBP's would make the team so much better.


I'm pretty sure SB's is just "part of the equation" of baserunning. Not to mention, when talking about Dunn and sb's, before you lose every ounce of credibility you may have, you just may wanna preface that with the words "sample size". Yeah....he's efficient, but that's because the only time he steals a base (like Jr), is when the opposing pitcher completely forgets about the guy. It's not like he's out there attempting 20+ sb's a season.

Chi-Town Red
07-21-2007, 09:19 AM
Im sorry i forgot we pay Dunn to steal bases....he has good speed for a man his size...13 million for his stats will be a bargain for 2008...wait and see

AmarilloRed
07-21-2007, 03:26 PM
I would try to extend him now-13 million will be a super-bargain by the time his option is expired. Comparable outfielders might be 20 million.

mroby85
07-21-2007, 07:37 PM
Im sorry i forgot we pay Dunn to steal bases....he has good speed for a man his size...13 million for his stats will be a bargain for 2008...wait and see

did that guy say we pay him to steal bases? i must have missed that part. i thought that he just responded to the person defending dunn talking about his efficiency when it comes to stealing bases. correct me if i'm wrong.

Chi-Town Red
07-21-2007, 07:50 PM
he was making a big deal in general about Dunn and Junior and base stealing...my point was that is a non factor as far as what they are paid..

mound_patrol
07-21-2007, 09:30 PM
do you think that could be because andruw jones is worth more? just a thought.

No. I think he'll get more because of his reputation. But Jones wouldn't get a whole lot more than Dunn in the Free Agent market.

mound_patrol
07-21-2007, 09:33 PM
I'm pretty sure SB's is just "part of the equation" of baserunning. Not to mention, when talking about Dunn and sb's, before you lose every ounce of credibility you may have, you just may wanna preface that with the words "sample size". Yeah....he's efficient, but that's because the only time he steals a base (like Jr), is when the opposing pitcher completely forgets about the guy. It's not like he's out there attempting 20+ sb's a season.

Wouldn't that make him a SMART baserunner. Taking advantage of the situation would make him heady. Unlike Freel who gets on and thinks he must steal second and third right away no matter the situation. I can't remember Dunn making many mistakes on the base paths.

keeganbrick
07-21-2007, 09:45 PM
no way! the guy does one thing well, and that is hits home runs.

he plays terrible defense, is a liability on the base paths, he strikes out a TON! hits horrible with RISP, and just from watching him every game, he appears lazy to me.

i don't even want dunn back, they need to spend that money on something more productive.

100% steal ratio and is one of /the best run producer on the team

I(heart)Freel
07-21-2007, 10:22 PM
I think the original poster was referring to the fact that Dunn makes some bone-headed mistakes on the basepaths. It's not just stealing, but not tagging up, or not running when he should, or running when he shouldn't. He does do those things on occasion. Goes back to his concentration issues - which incidentally are mostly to blame for his shoddy defense.

Also... I'm starting to think God put me on this Earth to remind people, in every trade/defend Dunn thread, that his salary - while possibly a "bargain" in free agency - can't be viewed in a vacuum. Our payroll will usually be about $70 mill. And we have Griff on contract.

So the question must come back to... is Dunn worth it, for this team, next season and future seasons? Or are the people who advocate trading him thinking that that money might be better spent addressing other team issues?

mound_patrol
07-21-2007, 10:28 PM
I think the original poster was referring to the fact that Dunn makes some bone-headed mistakes on the basepaths. It's not just stealing, but not tagging up, or not running when he should, or running when he shouldn't. He does do those things on occasion. Goes back to his concentration issues - which incidentally are mostly to blame for his shoddy defense.

Also... I'm starting to think God put me on this Earth to remind people, in every trade/defend Dunn thread, that his salary - while possibly a "bargain" in free agency - can't be viewed in a vacuum. Our payroll will usually be about $70 mill. And we have Griff on contract.

So the question must come back to... is Dunn worth it, for this team, next season and future seasons? Or are the people who advocate trading him thinking that that money might be better spent addressing other team issues?


Yes he's worth it in my mind because I think it'll cost a lot more than 13 million to replace his production. It's not Dunn's salary that made us a loser. It's how the money was spent on the bullpen and how badly they've pitched.

AmarilloRed
07-22-2007, 02:12 AM
I think the original poster was referring to the fact that Dunn makes some bone-headed mistakes on the basepaths. It's not just stealing, but not tagging up, or not running when he should, or running when he shouldn't. He does do those things on occasion. Goes back to his concentration issues - which incidentally are mostly to blame for his shoddy defense.

Also... I'm starting to think God put me on this Earth to remind people, in every trade/defend Dunn thread, that his salary - while possibly a "bargain" in free agency - can't be viewed in a vacuum. Our payroll will usually be about $70 mill. And we have Griff on contract.

So the question must come back to... is Dunn worth it, for this team, next season and future seasons? Or are the people who advocate trading him thinking that that money might be better spent addressing other team issues?


Yes he's worth it in my mind because I think it'll cost a lot more than 13 million to replace his production. It's not Dunn's salary that made us a loser. It's how the money was spent on the bullpen and how badly they've pitched.

There may be a time in the future where we will have a prospect outfielder who can approach Dunn's production for $100,000. Jay Bruce is 1-2 years away, and some other prospects in the minor leagues may be able to fill the bill. That time, however, is not now. We still need to pick up Dunn's option this year unless we can receive a good outfield prospect in any trade.

mound_patrol
07-22-2007, 11:21 AM
[QUOTE=mound_patrol;1419110]

There may be a time in the future where we will have a prospect outfielder who can approach Dunn's production for $100,000. Jay Bruce is 1-2 years away, and some other prospects in the minor leagues may be able to fill the bill. That time, however, is not now. We still need to pick up Dunn's option this year unless we can receive a good outfield prospect in any trade.

Bruce should be taking over in RF when Jr is gone not for Dunn in LF

Chi-Town Red
07-22-2007, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=AmarilloRed;1419255]

Bruce should be taking over in RF when Jr is gone not for Dunn in LFexactly

I(heart)Freel
07-22-2007, 12:28 PM
But again... to my earlier point... would Dunn's money be better spent elsewhere?

Yes yes yes... any reasonable person knows that the Reds offense takes a step back if Dunn's dealt. He's good. He is.

And I know Bruce next year is a little premature. (Although he's doing well since his jump to AAA.) I might argue that Bruce is a Red in 2009, if not mid-2008 as an injury replacement. So really we're talking about one year stop gap.

So for 2008, I do think Freel/Hopper as your left-fielder+4th outfielder and a revamped bullpen (thanks to Dunn's $13 million) is the way to go.

I'll start a fresh thread later about how the payroll looks with and without Dunn for 2008. But here's the preview: we don't have much flexibility to get what we need unless we deal him (or don't pick up the option and take the compensation draft picks).

Chi-Town Red
07-22-2007, 12:49 PM
if Dunn is traded before the start of 2008...Bruce will be in the OF.. count on it

BLEEDS
07-22-2007, 02:28 PM
if Dunn is traded before the start of 2008...Bruce will be in the OF.. count on it

I'll take that bet.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Degenerate39
07-22-2007, 03:16 PM
if Dunn is traded before the start of 2008...Bruce will be in the OF.. count on it

I can't imagine Bruce playing in the bigs in 2008. I really think he'll start in Triple A no matter what.

AmarilloRed
07-22-2007, 04:10 PM
But again... to my earlier point... would Dunn's money be better spent elsewhere?

Yes yes yes... any reasonable person knows that the Reds offense takes a step back if Dunn's dealt. He's good. He is.

And I know Bruce next year is a little premature. (Although he's doing well since his jump to AAA.) I might argue that Bruce is a Red in 2009, if not mid-2008 as an injury replacement. So really we're talking about one year stop gap.

So for 2008, I do think Freel/Hopper as your left-fielder+4th outfielder and a revamped bullpen (thanks to Dunn's $13 million) is the way to go.

I'll start a fresh thread later about how the payroll looks with and without Dunn for 2008. But here's the preview: we don't have much flexibility to get what we need unless we deal him (or don't pick up the option and take the compensation draft picks).

This is precisely the problem. We have several years before any minor league outfielders can take over in left. I also agree with most of the posters that Bruce is a natural right fielder, and he should take over for Griffey. So what's the solution? Freel/ Hopper next year is a huge dropoff from Adam Dunn, so that won't work. We really only have 3 options. 1. Pick up Adam Dunn's option and possibly work on a short extension(depending on when we can receive quality help from the minors) 2. We trade Adam Dunn at this year's deadline , and hope to get a major-league ready outfield prospect back 3. Try and sign a left fielder in free agency that is economic. We would have to sign one for less than 13 million, who might approach Adam's production. None of these are really good choices, so I don't envy Reds management.