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NJReds
07-21-2007, 10:37 AM
Maybe it's because they're putting more jocks in the booth with little broadcasting experience, but there's more of this going around then I remember growing up. While Brantley may have a point about Coffey's tendencies, I think his substance is lacking style.

I don't think fans tune in to ballgames to hear the broadcasters insult the players like they have a personal problem with them. This isn't analysis, it's bravado. "He knows where to find me." ... are you serious Jeff?





Brantley backs his words
Reds broadcaster says criticism of Coffey valid
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM

MIAMI - Reds radio broadcaster Jeff Brantley on Friday didn't back off what he said about reliever Todd Coffey on the air.

He even went a bit further.

"He chokes," Brantley said. "I stand by that. Very firmly."

Brantley made the remark during Coffey's appearance Thursday at Florida. Ironically, Coffey pitched 12/3 scoreless innings to get the win.

Coffey came into the game in the seventh inning with the Reds down 5-3 and got a double play with runners at first and second. The Reds then scored four runs to go up 7-5.

In the eighth inning with a runner on first base, Coffey started Todd Linden with two balls. Here's what was said by Brantley and Marty Brennaman from that point:

Brantley: "Two-run deficit, he was fine. Two-run lead ..."

Brennaman: "It's hard to understand."

Brantley: "You can't ... You cannot throw the ball ... I'm not even gonna say."

Brennaman: "Well, it's hard to understand how a guy can come in when a team is behind and pitch so well, and then come in to try to protect a lead ... There's ball three. It's just truly amazing."

Brantley: "You can't throw the ball with your right hand if your right hand is on your throat. You can't do both."

Brantley said he has told Coffey similar things.

"When he comes in to preserve a two-run deficit, he pitches fine ... throwing the ball over the plate because he's not worried about anything," Brantley said.

"When he comes in and we're one run ahead or two runs ahead, or if it's any type of close game, he chokes."

Reds media relations director Rob Butcher spoke to Brantley, who is employed by the team, about the remark. Coffey has not spoken to Brantley about the comment.

"... He knows where to find me," Brantley said.

Brantley's motive is to make Coffey a better pitcher.

"I know that's not my job," he said. "But I'm trying to help him."

nate
07-21-2007, 10:42 AM
Brantley: "You can't throw the ball with your right hand if your right hand is on your throat. You can't do both."

Oh, OK! _That's_ what was wrong!


"I know that's not my job," he said. "But I'm trying to help him."

Thanks! What a little booster you are!

RFS62
07-21-2007, 10:43 AM
If Brantley is really trying to help him, he should do it in private.

"... He knows where to find me,"..... give me a break.

He's an arrogant, pompous gasbag.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 10:53 AM
Coffey's response: pure class.

Interestingly, Coffey's response is in the print version of the Enquirer, but not on-line.


"I haven't pitched like I'm supposed to in the 7th and 8th," Coffey said. "That's what he's saying. And I didn't early in the season."

I like the way Coffey has handled this thus far, and I also like how Dunn handled the entire Pete Mack defensive replacement meeting.

They both resisted throwing a hissy fit or saying anything stupid. Good guys, both of them. Dunn, especially, is a great teammate, IMHO. I loved how he backed up Eric Milton earlier in the year. No matter what you think about your team mates, you have to go to war with them as one, as a team. You have to watch each others backs.

Jeff Brantley should be ashamed of himself (Bull in a china shop comes to mind). While he might be right, there are certain things you just do not say out loud. He could have pointed out how well Coffey pitches when the Reds are behind, and how poorly he pitches with a lead, and left it there. Any casual fan with an ounce of intelligence would have known what he was saying, and at that point, he was just stating fact.

This is in very poor taste, IMO.

lollipopcurve
07-21-2007, 11:10 AM
The fact that Marty cozies up to Brantley when Brantley makes remarks like that tells you a little something about where Marty's head is. Guys like that feed off each other.

Wheelhouse
07-21-2007, 11:14 AM
If Brantley is really trying to help him, he should do it in private.

"... He knows where to find me,"..... give me a break.

He's an arrogant, pompous gasbag.

I like him. I think he knows a great deal about the game and his play-by-play is quite good. I don't mind if he's honest.

flyer85
07-21-2007, 11:28 AM
He may be right but calling someone a "choker" like that is classless. If he has a problem with Coffey he should address it with him in private.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 11:30 AM
While Brantley may have a point about Coffey's tendencies, I think his substance is lacking style.


Well put.


I like him. I think he knows a great deal about the game and his play-by-play is quite good. I don't mind if he's honest.

I agree with most of what you say; I also have enjoyed listening to JB for the most part. But there's a difference between being honest and being crass. JB crossed the line. To his credit, he admitted saying it, and didn't try to make us believe that he did not. If it were me, I might have come back (when Fay asked about it) with something like "I was kind of harsh; and it is something Todd and I have talked about before."

The old football coach where I went to high school used to say "There's a difference between standing out, and being outstanding, and the sooner you guys learn that, the better men you'll be."

top6
07-21-2007, 11:34 AM
The funny thing was, they went on and on about how terrible he was, then hardly a word after he strikes out Cabrera, one of the best hitters in the game.

I will never understand why the Reds hire people to continually trash their product. Of course the Reds are awful, but Marty especially seems to hate the young players - i.e., the future - the most. He is a great announcer - and still is probably the best play by play guy I've ever heard - but his act was old five years ago.

MartyFan
07-21-2007, 12:20 PM
I don't see a problem with what Brantley said, when he said it or why he said it...it has been true and Coffey is a better pitcher than that.

While I could really appreciate a little bit of a "homer" attitude from the booth once in a while maybe this is something that has come down from the top to get this team to not be such a bunch of pansies?

Isn't this similar to what many of us on this board have said about Coffey?

As for the comment of "He knows where too find me..." One reason I hate print media is because a writer can take a statement like that and stand it out there all on its own and it looks like a bar fight is about to breakout...when it could have been part of a further dialog and not been said in that spirit at all.

Oh well, for what it is worth, I've written too much.

traderumor
07-21-2007, 01:01 PM
"We have seen a pattern whereby Coffey seems to pitch very well when the Reds are behind, but when they have the lead, he seems to struggle. Perhaps it is because he is unable to handle the pressure and responsibility of holding a lead, which causes him to tighten up, whereas when the Reds are behind he just goes out and pitches."

The George Grande version. Everyone feel better now? :evil:

Always Red
07-21-2007, 01:20 PM
The George Grande version. Everyone feel better now? :evil:

Funny, tr (I really did laugh!); but no, I don't really feel better. ;)

I'd rather the Reds and WLW employees handle themselves with some class and dignity. Grande is well thought of throughout all of baseball for a reason. And it's not for his love of all things Cardinal!

There's a way to say exactly what JB meant without coming across like he's challenging Coffey's manhood: "he knows where to find me." Some things just do not need to be said on the air:


"You can't throw the ball with your right hand if your right hand is on your throat. You can't do both."


Well, maybe it's just that societal norms are changing, and I'm quickly becoming a dinosaur. :(

icehole3
07-21-2007, 01:25 PM
He is making him better, Brantley was the one who brought up how Coffey needs to quit his goofey sprint to the mound because it was effecting him on the first batter and he was right, Coffey was getting lit up at the time ...teams were batting something like .600 off him and he has since quit that knucklehead sprint.

BCubb2003
07-21-2007, 01:45 PM
I like Todd Coffey and hope he succeeds, but I've always wondered if people had unrealistic expectations of him. If I remember right, he was a very late rounds draft pick with a weight problem who came from nowhere and pitched relatively well when there was nothing else in the pen in the late season. But because he was big and ran to the mound, people expected another Rob Dibble. As much as I like him, I found that even when he's pitching well he tends to be messy, putting runners on, getting into trouble then scraping by. Despite his size, he seems more like an "everything has to go right" pitcher than a "blow it by them" guy.

flyer85
07-21-2007, 03:10 PM
there are a lot of reasons the Nuxhall was beloved, not trashing players on air was just one of them.

RFS62
07-21-2007, 03:33 PM
In the lexicon of the professional athlete, there's not much worse than calling someone a "choker". It stabs at the heart of the player. It implies a lack of guts, intestinal fortitude, and yes, even his manhood. These are all silly concepts when you think about it. It is, after all, a game. But they are the very standards which Brantley seems to embrace with his "cowboy" style.

If Brantley thought what he was saying was true and really wanted to help him, he should have had however many conversations with Todd as he wanted, but all in private. Calling him out in public like that isn't a sign of Brantley's "character". In my opinion, it's a sign of his lack thereof.

It doesn't take much guts to sit in a booth and question a players performance. It was classless and brazen.

Notice I haven't said a single thing about whether or not his observation has any merit. My beef with the "cowboy" is in his cowardly attack on a decent man, one who had more class than to fire back with the same lack of regard or civility exhibited by his childish little routine.

"He knows where to find me"..... that really makes me laugh. What are you going to do next time, cowboy? Hold your breath until you turn blue?

traderumor
07-21-2007, 03:59 PM
I heard very little of Thursday's game, but the funny part is that the half inning I did hear was this one and the exchange quoted by Fay. Brantley started to say it initially, but stopped himself, said he shouldn't do it, then did it anyway. At least he didn't try to make excuses, defend himself or say he was taken out of context like so many media types do when they say something that is offensive to some.

Now, I want to know of those who did not like the comment have you never said the same thing about Coffey (or another player) in the privacy of your own home, in the bar, or under your moniker on this or some other board. Come on, now, fess up.

I know you're going to say its not the same as Brantley broadcasting it over all Reds Country, but is your character any better for using the same terminology about another person, even if only a few people heard you or read it in a game thread versus thousands?

RFS62
07-21-2007, 04:05 PM
TR, maybe that's why I pisses me off so much to hear that kind of stuff.

When I make a comment about a player to friends, I don't have to worry about the players family or friends hearing me. I don't have to think about all the opinions I shape from my pulpit.

It's not the same thing. Being a broadcaster carries a responsibility. He could have said the same thing in different words and got his point across. The word "choker" is my problem with his comments.

Athletes know what it means. It's not meant to be helpful.

Maybe fumes from the lard Brantley uses to grease his mullet is affecting his judgment, I'm not sure.

Team Clark
07-21-2007, 04:13 PM
I like him. I think he knows a great deal about the game and his play-by-play is quite good. I don't mind if he's honest.

I agree. It's not like Brantley blindsided Coffey with these comments. He had already had this conversation with him more than once. Brantley has a lot more credibility than anyone else in the booth, including Welsh.

pahster
07-21-2007, 04:16 PM
Maybe fumes from the lard Brantley uses to grease his mullet is affecting his judgment, I'm not sure.

What an image! :eek:

macro
07-21-2007, 04:18 PM
I don't know that I can add much beyond what some of you have already said so eloquently, so I'll just say that I now have no more time for Brantley. And yes, there is a huge difference between grumbling something in the privacy of your living room versus calling a man out over the airwaves.

pedro
07-21-2007, 04:23 PM
I think that's pretty classless.

icehole3
07-21-2007, 04:26 PM
Why put a guy on the air who calls himself Cowboy if you dont expect him to be very blunt and straight forward, he's the friggin Cowboy. The Reds went and got the guy they wanted. He's doing the same act he did on ESPN, what did you guys think you were going to get the sugar coated Cowboy???

Ltlabner
07-21-2007, 04:34 PM
Maybe fumes from the lard Brantley uses to grease his mullet is affecting his judgment, I'm not sure.

Well. I'm glad that we're keeping it classy. I agree 100% that the "I'm just trying to help him" bit is pure crap, but I see nothing wrong with saying what 95% of fans are already thinking, and in most cases saying themselves. Why ignore the big giant elephant in the room or dance around with with euphimisims?

Would it have been more interesting to have a short discussion why Coffey seemingly falls apart underpressure instead of just calling him a choker? Sure. But I hardly lose much sleep over the comments.

BTW...


By Situation AB R HR RBI BB HBP SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

Scoring Position 180 41 4 60 17 1 30 .256 .318 .367 .685
Runners On 279 57 6 66 24 4 44 .287 .345 .416 .761
None On 275 10 6 6 14 3 42 .324 .363 .491 .854

Interestingly when you look at the splits, at first glance it appeas Brantley is dead wrong with Coffey. His AVG/OPS actually goes down as he goes from none on to runners on to RISP. No data (that I can find anyway) regarding having a lead, vs not having a lead.

However when you look has his numbers for "close and late" games it gets ugly...


By Situation AB R HR RBI BB HBP SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
Close and Late 222 13 5 28 21 1 40 .302 .362 .446 .808


In 53 less atbats than "none on" situations, he's surrendered only one less homer, and given up 3 more runs than with no runners on. He's surrendered 22 more RBI's than the no runners on situation. 22 more RBI's facing 53 less batters. That's stunning. I'll give him credit that he's likely cleaning up someone elses mess, or Narron waited till the bases were loaded before calling him in. But still. That's U.G.L.Y. and supports the appearance that Coffey just plain doesn't have confidence in his stuff when a runner is on base and the game is close.

Also intersting that with no runners on the RBI's he surrenders are few and far between. If he comes into the game with someone on base, the RBI's start being surrendered at a drastically higher pace.

I've seen him implode after a few things don't go his way on more than one occasion (in person and on TV). I think he's got a lot of tallent in his arm, and can be usefull if we were managed and utilized properally, but I don't think Brantly is far off on his assement that Coffey folds under pressure.

GAC
07-21-2007, 04:42 PM
Brantley said that about Coffey earlier in the season. During one game, after another of Coffey's melt downs, he stated that Coffey has no conficence in any of his other pitches othre than his fastball. He's been "shell s shocked" and hasn't been able to recover.

I like Brantley. From his experience, he not only knows pitchers, but also the hitters. He gives good game time observations; but doesn't have a radio voice IMO,and at times gets a little too over-analytical or detailed. He over does it at times.

But this bullpen certainly has given him plenty of material to talk about. ;)

Fire Pole and make Brantley the pitching coach.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 04:45 PM
...but I don't think Brantly is far off on his assement that Coffey folds under pressure.

You've totally missed the point, Ltlabner.

It's not about if Brantley was correct in his diagnosis; he obviously is.

It's his bedside manner that totally blows.

It was crass. That's all. Oh, I agree with him, but I don't agree with him calling Coffey a "choker" on TV and verifying it in the media.

I don't have any problem with JB pointing out the truth of Coffey's woes, none at all.

As for me, I just prefer the niceties of civilized society. Because next time, he might be calling out me. Or you.

What does he say next time Coffey comes running out of the bullpen "Here comes the Choker!"

Frankly, I'm having problems seeing how anyone can think that this is right. :confused:

traderumor
07-21-2007, 04:48 PM
I see harsh words about others being wrong whether they are said in private, to hundreds, or to thousands. That makes Brantley wrong, of course, but I also see it wrong for individuals (including myself) to bad mouth a player's performance with hyperbole like "choking." Just my two cents.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 04:49 PM
Brantley said that about Coffey earlier in the season. During one game, after another of Coffey's melt downs, he stated that Coffey has no conficence in any of his other pitches othre than his fastball. He's been "shell s shocked" and hasn't been able to recover.

I like Brantley. From his experience, he not only knows pitchers, but also the hitters. He gives good game time observations; but doesn't have a radio voice IMO,and at times gets a little too over-analytical or detailed. He over does it at times.

But this bullpen certainly has given him plenty of material to talk about. ;)

Fire Pole and make Brantley the pitching coach.

I agree with all of that, GAC, and I'd like to see what Brantley could do as pitching coach. He knows the game, and he has a special talent in describing it to his listeners.

I don't dislike him at all, in fact I think he has helped make Marty a better broadcaster this year, and I have enjoyed listening to the two of them, especially, together.

Except when Marty seldom lays off Dunn, and when JB calls Coffey a choker, on air. Calling someone a choker- man, those are fighting words were I grew up.

We've seen players charge the mound, have we ever seen a player charge the booth?? ;)

Rojo
07-21-2007, 05:02 PM
In my experience, labeling never helps anyone.

Ltlabner
07-21-2007, 05:36 PM
I don't have any problem with JB pointing out the truth of Coffey's woes, none at all.

As for me, I just prefer the niceties of civilized society. Because next time, he might be calling out me. Or you.

So if he said, "Coffey is young and seems to fall apart under pressure" you would have been fine ? Or if he said, "Coffey, who seems to have the tallent, but can't seem to find it when it counts" you would have been fine? Or if he said, "I like Coffey, it is frustrating for the fans when he can't get he job done when it really matters" you would have been fine?

Is the whole issue really that he used the word "chokes"? Why? Because it causes some pre-pubecent, pseudo-macho responce? Because back in high school (where I scored 4 touch downs in a single highschool game, don'tcha know) it was considered an affront to my manhood? Please. Save it for the 25th high school reuinion.

People from whom I expect a more "civilized" manner of communication include heads of state, CEO's of huge corporations, high ranking members of orgianized religions or millitarys, doctors and lawyers. Somehow guys describing a baseball game don't seem to make the cut on this list.



Frankly, I'm having problems seeing how anyone can think that this is right.

I don't necessarly agree with the approach, but I'm just not going to lose any sleep over what some guy describing a baseball game has to say about one of the players. Him being crass (Brantley crass??? Who wouda thunk it?) in his fairly accurate discription of the situation just doesn't register as something all that newsworthy.

cincrazy
07-21-2007, 05:39 PM
Well since Brantley feels the need to play harsh, maybe Coffey should get on the air and make a remark about how awful the Cowboy is at play-by-play, and about how he routinely chokes during crucial and important situations, when a fluid call is needed.

I like Jeff Brantley, but he crossed the line, and instead of admitting it, he flashed a sign of arrogance that rubbed me the wrong way. Coffey the player has a lot to work on, and Brantley the announcer, and person, has a lot to work on, also.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 06:13 PM
So if he said, "Coffey is young and seems to fall apart under pressure" you would have been fine ? Or if he said, "Coffey, who seems to have the tallent, but can't seem to find it when it counts" you would have been fine? Or if he said, "I like Coffey, it is frustrating for the fans when he can't get he job done when it really matters" you would have been fine?

Is the whole issue really that he used the word "chokes"? Why? Because it causes some pre-pubecent, pseudo-macho responce? Because back in high school (where I scored 4 touch downs in a single highschool game, don'tcha know) it was considered an affront to my manhood? Please. Save it for the 25th high school reuinion.

People from whom I expect a more "civilized" manner of communication include heads of state, CEO's of huge corporations, high ranking members of orgianized religions or millitarys, doctors and lawyers. Somehow guys describing a baseball game don't seem to make the cut on this list.



I don't necessarly agree with the approach, but I'm just not going to lose any sleep over what some guy describing a baseball game has to say about one of the players. Him being crass (Brantley crass??? Who wouda thunk it?) in his fairly accurate discription of the situation just doesn't register as something all that newsworthy.

Yes, abner, I'd have been fine with him saying all of those things about Coffey, because they are all true. The stats you posted earlier show that.

IMHO, a Reds broadcaster calling a Reds player a "choker" crosses the line of professionalism; it starts to get personal at that point. Heck, I think a Reds broadcaster calling an opponent a choker would also be crossing the line; I wouldn't care for it.

Brantley showed a lack of professionalism, IMO.

If I called you a choker or say, a slacker, in your line of work, would you be pissed off? Maybe, maybe not. I would be, if I were you.

BTW, I would hope for civilized behavior from more than just the groups of folks you listed above. But, unfortunately, there is less and less civility seen in public these days. That lack of civilized behavior is one reason I no longer go to Bengals games, for instance.

I'd bet that there are a whole bunch of names that would have gotten you riled as a teenager that will still push your buttons, abner.

As for me, I'm not losing any sleep over it, either. After all, he wasn't calling me a choker, publicly.

Newsworthy? You bet it is. Made the morning newspaper. And we've thought enough about the topic to discuss it here at RZ. And I bet we haven't heard the last of it, either.

Ltlabner
07-21-2007, 06:21 PM
Yes, abner, I'd have been fine with him saying all of those things about Coffey, because they are all true. The stats you posted earlier show that.

IMHO, a Reds broadcaster calling a Reds player a "choker" crosses the line of professionalism; it starts to get personal at that point. Heck, I think a Reds broadcaster calling an opponent a choker would also be crossing the line; I wouldn't care for it.

But the statements I made up, and "choker" mean the exact same thing! Talk about doing a dance of semantics and being uber-PC. Whether he calls him a choker, or simply says he seems to implode under pressure, he's making a personal comment because they apply specifically to Todd. If you don't want any personal comments from the broadcast booth then all you can say is "here's the pitch" and "that one is out of the park". The second you say, "he shoulda caught that one" it gets personal.


If I called you a choker or say, a slacker, in your line of work, would you be pissed off? Maybe, maybe not. I would be, if I were you.

I'd bet that there are a whole bunch of names that would have gotten you riled as a teenager that will still push your buttons, abner.

I don't know for sure how I would respond, but my guess is if there was even a shred of truth to what you said, I'd be far more intersted in working harder to prove you wrong than getting riled up that you said it.


Newsworthy? You bet it is. Made the morning newspaper. And we've thought enough about the topic to discuss it here at RZ. And I bet we haven't heard the last of it, either.

Well...you got me there! And I agree. This thread has at least 10 pages in it, I bet. :laugh:

IslandRed
07-21-2007, 06:28 PM
So if he said, "Coffey is young and seems to fall apart under pressure" you would have been fine ? Or if he said, "Coffey, who seems to have the tallent, but can't seem to find it when it counts" you would have been fine? Or if he said, "I like Coffey, it is frustrating for the fans when he can't get he job done when it really matters" you would have been fine?

Is the whole issue really that he used the word "chokes"? Why?

Because words mean things.

The phrases you used in the first paragraph? Acceptable. You're criticizing the performance record. People might come to their own conclusion as to why, but room is left for alternate explanations. Call him a choker, and you're not just criticizing his performance, you're directly indicting his character. You're making damning -- but ultimately unprovable -- accusations of lacking mental or intestinal fortitude. (OK, I suppose it would be provable if he started crying on the mound or lost control of bodily functions or something.) There's just no need for a guy in the booth to go there, in my opinion.

There are probably people who use the word "choker" without meaning it as a character slam, but most people understand what the word is intended to convey. What you're calling semantics, I call accuracy.

indy_dave00
07-21-2007, 06:41 PM
Personally I have no problem with Brantley speaking his mind. He was a closer he knows what it takes to be successful at it.

Its like a parents tough love , codling and excuses only go so far . Todd Coffey is paid millions to play baseball , you get praise when you succeed , criticized when you fail . If Coffey doesn't like it prove Brantley wrong and shut him up. Until then Jeff has ever right to express his opinion .

I'd rather have an announcer say it like it is and not candy coat cheerlead. Nothing angers me more than to hear an announcer say he is trying , then also say he is failing , don't insult a fan by candy coating everything . I've been a Reds fan for 45 years , I know the game don't give me crap that a guy is doing his job when he isn't. Brantley as a former closer to me wants Coffey to succeed but he also owes it to us to be a straight shooter.

I know mine is not a popular opinion but like Brantley , its how I see it.

Always Red
07-21-2007, 06:45 PM
But the statements I made up, and "choker" mean the exact same thing! Talk about doing a dance of semantics and being uber-PC. Whether he calls him a choker, or simply says he seems to implode under pressure, he's making a personal comment because they apply specifically to Todd. If you don't want any personal comments from the broadcast booth then all you can say is "here's the pitch" and "that one is out of the park". The second you say, "he shoulda caught that one" it gets personal.


I think there's a huge difference between saying "Todd Coffey has not pitched well this year in pressure situations" and "Todd Coffey chokes under pressure."

Both sentences are true. Both mean the same thing. One is stating fact, and the other crosses the line of professionalism.

That's it, that's all I've got. I can't make it any clearer than that. if you can't see the difference, then I can't help you, abner.

Let me try it this way: we live in a day and age where it's unusual for people to marry the first person they've "known" in the Biblical sense. Now let's say a fellow marries a gal who has had a handful of boyfriends (maybe 2 handfuls:eek:), maybe even been married a time or two in the past. Would it be better to say that this gal has "had a few relationships prior to the marriage" or that "she is a skank, the town tramp"? If this fellow is your brother, and you're describing his new wife to a common group of friends, which description would you use?

BTW, I am not politically correct at all, in any way , shape or form. Those are fightin words on the west side of town.;)


The second you say, "he shoulda caught that one" it gets personal.

Do you really believe that??:laugh: Because I don't, and if you think I do, well, then you're splitting hairs, and have misunderstood everything I have said.

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything happens next. Hopefully Brantley and Coffey have talked, it's over and we won't need to hear anything else. :beerme:

membengal
07-21-2007, 06:51 PM
Well since Brantley feels the need to play harsh, maybe Coffey should get on the air and make a remark about how awful the Cowboy is at play-by-play, and about how he routinely chokes during crucial and important situations, when a fluid call is needed.

I like Jeff Brantley, but he crossed the line, and instead of admitting it, he flashed a sign of arrogance that rubbed me the wrong way. Coffey the player has a lot to work on, and Brantley the announcer, and person, has a lot to work on, also.

Word.

Classless is as classless does.

Decidedly unimpressed. And now unwilling to keep giving Brantley room to grow at PBP, which he is most certainly awful at. Pretty hard to do PBP with his hands around his throat...

flyer85
07-21-2007, 07:50 PM
Because words mean things.

The phrases you used in the first paragraph? Acceptable. You're criticizing the performance record. People might come to their own conclusion as to why, but room is left for alternate explanations. Call him a choker, and you're not just criticizing his performance, you're directly indicting his character. choker is definitely pejorative.

RedsManRick
07-21-2007, 07:57 PM
Saying that Coffey has struggled is completely different than calling him a choker. It's very similar to the difference in pointing out somebody's race or sexual identity and using a slur. The former is an observation, without moral judgment. You aren't attacking a person's character. The latter is a derogatory label meant to both offend, insult, and imply a lack of some good quality.

There is no doubt in Coffey's performance record and no harm in pointing out it. However, the insult was uncalled for and unprofessional. The "you know where to find me" comment simply clarifies that the insult portion was intentional.

For example, me pointing out that Jeff is want to cross the line of good taste, apparently for the purpose of establishing an identity as confident and cocky, is an observation. Me saying Jeff Brantley is a meathead is meant to both point out his relative lack of intelligence and his tendency towards testosterone driven, jock behavior, while insulting him in the process.

KronoRed
07-21-2007, 08:11 PM
Trying to help? come on..he's a broadcaster, if the players are listening to what the broadcast crew is saying we have big problems :lol: all Brantley trying to do is get noticed, and it worked

WVRedsFan
07-21-2007, 08:23 PM
Excuse this reference, but if the Lord Himself was doing radio or TV for the Reds He'd get trashed on here. It's radio--entertainment--and like Krono said, he got noticed and continues to get noticed so he has accomplished his mission. I was listening to the Braves broadcast of a game the other night and Slip Caray (I think) was just giving the pitcher the business for not throwing strikes--almost calling him stupid.

Isn't it funny? If the player had been Castro, Stanton or maybe Joe Mays, not a peep would have been heard. But diss a fan favorite and lookout!

membengal
07-21-2007, 08:41 PM
That's not the least bit true, WV. We've been all over this before. There are ways that Brantley et al can do their jobs without being classless. It's not that hard. And yet, it seems forever beyond their grasps...

BoydsOfSummer
07-21-2007, 08:44 PM
Brantley and Franchester versus the massive Coffey Brothers. Steel cage, four enter, two leave. All money donated to winners fav charity.

WVRedsFan
07-21-2007, 09:17 PM
That's not the least bit true, WV. We've been all over this before. There are ways that Brantley et al can do their jobs without being classless. It's not that hard. And yet, it seems forever beyond their grasps...

Truth is in the eye of the beholder...

Yes, Mem, we've been all over this before. Ad nauseum.

Once again, it's just radio and TV. It's not brain surgery. Relax.

membengal
07-21-2007, 09:22 PM
Thanks for the lecture.

Relax yourself.

pedro
07-21-2007, 09:23 PM
Truth is in the eye of the beholder...

Yes, Mem, we've been all over this before. Ad nauseum.

Once again, it's just radio and TV. It's not brain surgery. Relax.

No it's not brain surgery. In fact, most of time when the Reds announcers go off on one of their diatribes their is very little brain activity going on at all.

WVRedsFan
07-21-2007, 09:30 PM
Thanks for the lecture.

Relax yourself.

No lecture intended. I apologize if you took it that way. I just don't see the big deal here. I imagine Coffey and Brantley have discussed this privately before and that's why Tood took it so calmly. If not, the result might be interesting.

mbgrayson
07-21-2007, 10:36 PM
See, tonight proves Coffey isn't a choker at all.

He is just plain bad.

CTA513
07-21-2007, 10:37 PM
See, tonight proves Coffey isn't a choker at all.

He is just plain bad.

Is he as bad as Brantelys announcing?

indy_dave00
07-21-2007, 10:46 PM
OMG Coffey really was horrible tonight , 5 batters 5hits 4 runs and a homer allowed . That contract extention really spurred him to success.

But he wasn't alone 10 runs in 2 innings .

mbgrayson
07-21-2007, 10:49 PM
Is he as bad as Brantelys announcing?

About the same....

flyer85
07-21-2007, 10:49 PM
He is just plain bad.we have a winner, whatever movement his pitches use to have is gone.

NJReds
07-21-2007, 10:50 PM
Excuse this reference, but if the Lord Himself was doing radio or TV for the Reds He'd get trashed on here. It's radio--entertainment--and like Krono said, he got noticed and continues to get noticed so he has accomplished his mission. I was listening to the Braves broadcast of a game the other night and Slip Caray (I think) was just giving the pitcher the business for not throwing strikes--almost calling him stupid.

Isn't it funny? If the player had been Castro, Stanton or maybe Joe Mays, not a peep would have been heard. But diss a fan favorite and lookout!

Your dead wrong here. I started the thread, not to trash Brantley the broadcaster, but to bring up the point that while his analysis might be correct, his manner was classless. To call Coffey out "he knows where I am" just was uncalled for.

I don't need my broadcasters to be 'homers' but leave the jock machismo in the lockerroom please.

I don't care who he said this about -- Castro, Stanton, whoever -- it was the wrong thing to do.

indy_dave00
07-21-2007, 10:55 PM
All I got from his , he knows where I am comment was Brantley saying I'll say it to his face and stand behind it. In other words I won't say was taken out of context, I'll tell him to his face.

Classless would be saying it and when Coffey approached him claiming he was misquoted or taken out of context. Sorry I back Brantley completely.

cincrazy
07-21-2007, 11:31 PM
indy dave, I agree in that I don't think Brantley was aiming for a fight when he said "He knows where to find me." But that doesn't take away from the fact that what Jeff Brantley said was completely classless. Todd Coffey hasn't pitched well, but he's far from the only one, and to single him out and belittle him like that wreaks of having a personal agenda against him, in my opinion.

However, maybe he just sees more potential in Coffey than the other's, and really does feel the need to motivate him to get better... but calling him out in public isn't the correct way to do so. Brantley should sign up for Journalism 101 and learn a few things about professionalism.

alloverjr
07-21-2007, 11:38 PM
I think Brantley is a total hack behind the mic. Whoever was responsible for that hire should smack themself in the head a few hundred times. I think the "choke" reference simply shows a genuine stupidity of what commentators should say. I heard the replay of the comments and it sounded like Marty was trying to save him at the end. There surely is a right and wrong way to be critical whether you agree with the analysis or not. Maybe both he and Todd should be sent down to Dayton to work on their trades.

Krusty
07-21-2007, 11:56 PM
You know what irritates me more than what Brantley called Coffey? It is the lunancy of ownership and Krivsky to give Coffey a contract extension when he wasn't eligible for free agency.

When I think of this and the multi-year deals he gave Cormier and Stanton, I think less of Krivisky as a competent GM.

WVRedsFan
07-22-2007, 12:37 AM
Your dead wrong here. I started the thread, not to trash Brantley the broadcaster, but to bring up the point that while his analysis might be correct, his manner was classless. To call Coffey out "he knows where I am" just was uncalled for.

I don't need my broadcasters to be 'homers' but leave the jock machismo in the lockerroom please.

I don't care who he said this about -- Castro, Stanton, whoever -- it was the wrong thing to do.

And I agree. But it's a radio program, and no one wants to see that point, so I give up. You and everyone else wins. I just think it's much ado about nothing, but I'm apparently in the minority. So be it.

Eric_Davis
07-22-2007, 02:15 AM
Way to put all this behind and you and step up, Coffey.

The game was over anyway, so it really didn't matter, but Todd, have some pride.

WVRedsFan
07-22-2007, 02:22 AM
Way to put all this behind and you and step up, Coffey.

The game was over anyway, so it really didn't matter, but Todd, have some pride.If you believe Brantley (and I'm nearly afraid to say this since a couple of people jumped all over me for saying it was much ado about nothing when Brantley said his "choke" thang), Coffey has no movement on his pitches and the straight shots are getting hit hard. He also made reference tonight about him not having enough pitches.

I have no reason to doubt what Jeff said, but does anyone out here see what Brantley sees. Amazingly enough, his pitches seem straighter than two years ago. But, I'm no expert.

MWM
07-22-2007, 03:36 AM
Way to put all this behind and you and step up, Coffey.

The game was over anyway, so it really didn't matter, but Todd, have some pride.

Now these comments irritate the hell out of me. Do you think it's easy pitching in the major leagues? It's one of the hardest jobs on this earth to be successful in. You really have no perspective on that do you? It's not like he can just walk up to the mound and blow guys away whenever he wants. I gurantee you he's got more pride than anyone you know. How the hell else does he get to where he is currently? But it's damn hard, and every time he steps on the mound he's throwing every ounce of pride he has into getting the hitters out. But major league hitters are good. They're REAL good. And getting them out ain't easy, no matter what Marty or Brantley says. Good lord!

membengal
07-22-2007, 08:06 AM
If you believe Brantley (and I'm nearly afraid to say this since a couple of people jumped all over me for saying it was much ado about nothing when Brantley said his "choke" thang), Coffey has no movement on his pitches and the straight shots are getting hit hard. He also made reference tonight about him not having enough pitches.

I have no reason to doubt what Jeff said, but does anyone out here see what Brantley sees. Amazingly enough, his pitches seem straighter than two years ago. But, I'm no expert.

I have no problem with Brantly making THOSE observations.

But you do understand the difference between him making the points you have highlighted above and him calling a player a choker, right? You do understand that baseball radio broadcasts for a team don't need to be an extension of hate-filled sportstalk radio, ratcheting up the controversy for ratings, right?

GAC
07-22-2007, 08:17 AM
But the statements I made up, and "choker" mean the exact same thing! Talk about doing a dance of semantics and being uber-PC. Whether he calls him a choker, or simply says he seems to implode under pressure, he's making a personal comment because they apply specifically to Todd. If you don't want any personal comments from the broadcast booth then all you can say is "here's the pitch" and "that one is out of the park". The second you say, "he shoulda caught that one" it gets personal.

I thoroughly agree. I guess there is some rule of etiquette to be utilized to "mask" or politely temper saying "you're a choker!" Such as you implied - "he implodes under pressure." Ones not as crass, but it says the same thing. Make Emily Post proud.

We, as fans, can say those things, and even worse, because after all we're not public figures. And there may be some truth to that sentiment; but to me, it still "rings" of some hypocrisy when these guys are echoing some of the very sentiments we have stated/believe, and yet we respond.... "Yeah, but I wouldn't say it to their face!" :lol:

I wonder if Marty, Jeff, Chris, and George were publically being critical of this FO, some of the decisions they have made and the direction of this team - which most of us are echoing - would we be reprimanding them for doing so publically, or cheering them on?

Should announcers, on the air, criticize/call out Freel and Phillips when they make stupid base running blunders? They have.

How about when Marty called out Coffey the other night when he picked up the bunt which was going foul, and echoed it several times "That was just plain stupid"? And it was.

We can sight example after example this year where the announcers, during various game time situations, have consistently called out miscellaneous player's performance and/or blunders. Whether it was an AB, running the bases, fielding, pitching, etc. And for the most part we would agree with them.

Coffey is not the only choker in this bullpen either IMHO.

And both Marty and Jeff have made comments about Lohse's inconsistency during games. That the kid seems to have the stuff, but alluding that it appears to be in his head (and yes, I've heard the term "head case" used). Wrong?

How about when the fans boo in mass at a Coffey, Stanton, Saarloos, or whoever, when they come in, blow a lead, and basically stink it up? Is that classless and inappropriate? It happens alot.

Would it have been alright if Brantley had made the comment, not in the booth during the game; but afterwards, where it was heard and then printed by the media?

It just seems to me that many are going after Brantley more because they don't like him as a announcer/play by play guy. And that is fine. He definitely doesn't hold back at times that is for sure. But for anyone on here to allude that the guy doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to pitching (analysis), then they are way off base IMO. Because IMHO, yes he does. And alot of the analysis he gives during the game, in reference to pitching/type of pitches thrown (or maybe needed to be thrown) are pretty accurate.

He probably doesn't belong in the booth. It's probably not the appropriate place for him. How about as a pitching coach somewhere on this team? Maybe even bullpen coach, because whatever Hume is doing, it ain't working.

That way he can address some of these guys privately, because some of them need to have their butts kicked IMO.

Brantly made a gametime comment earlier in the year that really got me to thinking. Basically he said, in reference to this BP's poor performance (and I paraphrase)....

"It's not that these guys in the bullpen aren't bothered when they come in and perform bad; but maybe they understand that this FO is in a "tight spot" when it comes to bullpen arms, and that they are going to keep trotting them out there "in hope" that these guys somehow right themselves? These guys realize this, and they are in a comfort zone or complaceny because they don't feel their jobs are in jeopardy. Who else does this FO have to turn to? They don't really feel "threatened", as far as their job security, because this FO hasn't been able to find any alternative answers. Maybe it's gonna take one or two of these guys being released, lose their jobs, before it wakes some of these kids up?"

But publically criticizing this bullpen, and various members of it, isn't like it's some sort of new revelation that the fans didn't realize, or that this news will take them by surprise.

We've been watching it daily... and they suck! ;)

Ltlabner
07-22-2007, 01:33 PM
You do understand that baseball radio broadcasts for a team don't need to be an extension of hate-filled sportstalk radio, ratcheting up the controversy for ratings, right?

Saying that a player seemingly folds under pressure is "hate-speach" or hate filled? Please.

Saying he's a pedifile with no evidence. Calling into question his fidelity to his wife. Saying he's no good because he's from a certian part of the country, or is part of a certian ethnic group. Saying he's mentally incompetant. Calling into question the marital status of his parents at the time of his conception. Claiming he's inferior because of his religon.

Those are comments that are typically fueled by hate. Let's not dumb down the definition of "hate speach" by including pointing out a ballplayer might not function as well under pressure as he would in less tense situations.

indy_dave00
07-22-2007, 01:46 PM
The games last night was 4-1 when Coffey came in,not totally over. Bases were loaded and no one out ; 5 batters faced by Coffey later it was 11-1 with a runner at 2nd still no one out. I'm sorry I have no idea what has happened to Todd Coffey but he definately can not handle the pressure of a tight game. He has worked 180 games the last 3 seasons and is 27 soon , seems we can't use the when he gets experience excuse anymore.

creek14
07-22-2007, 01:53 PM
Maybe he's hurt.

Everyone trashed Milton, turns out he was hurt.

Few years ago everyone trashed Dempster, turns out he was hurt.

Maybe Todd's hurt.

Wheelhouse
07-22-2007, 01:56 PM
Now these comments irritate the hell out of me. Do you think it's easy pitching in the major leagues? It's one of the hardest jobs on this earth to be successful in. You really have no perspective on that do you? It's not like he can just walk up to the mound and blow guys away whenever he wants. I gurantee you he's got more pride than anyone you know. How the hell else does he get to where he is currently? But it's damn hard, and every time he steps on the mound he's throwing every ounce of pride he has into getting the hitters out. But major league hitters are good. They're REAL good. And getting them out ain't easy, no matter what Marty or Brantley says. Good lord!

I think Jeff Brantley is acutely aware of how difficult it is in the Major Leagues, and is paid to bring his experience to bear on the performances he sees. As far as EricDavis, what exactly frightens you about an opinion being expressed? What can happen? I don't get it.

Blitz Dorsey
07-22-2007, 02:07 PM
Brantley is very rough around the edges -- especially on PBP -- and that makes sense considering this is his first year as a full-time radio announcer. However, I like that he lets it fly. I want to hear what the announcer really thinks, as long as he/she knows what they are talking about. I have no doubt Jeff Brantley knows what is going through a reliever's mind more than just about anyone, and I am glad he gives us his true feelings. If he didn't, people would criticize Jeff for being afraid to criticize.

However, I will agree there are ways to get your point across without being a complete Richard. That is the point I think some of you are making and I concur.

redsrule2500
07-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Well, c'mon, we know it's true.

I really think this a problem with A LOT of Reds, and hurts our chances to compete. Our overall talent is MUCH HIGHER IMO, but we have a lot of "chokers" on the team, aside from a few solid bats. Just take a look at RISP stats for batters and I think the 8th inning says it all for the pitchers (at least the bullpen) - and Kyle Losche is self explanatory.

Problem is, I don't know if it's fixable.

MWM
07-22-2007, 02:35 PM
I I don't get it.

True.

NJReds
07-22-2007, 02:44 PM
I think Jeff Brantley is acutely aware of how difficult it is in the Major Leagues, and is paid to bring his experience to bear on the performances he sees. As far as EricDavis, what exactly frightens you about an opinion being expressed? What can happen? I don't get it.

It's not his opinion that's the problem. I don't think anyone here has a problem with Jeff's opinion. His manner of expressing it was crass and poor. But perhaps I'm just used to quality announcers that and express an opinion without sounding like an oaf.

If we on this message board want to rip players, call them chokers, etc. Then so be it. But Brantley is the voice of the Reds, and he should be able to make his points through descriptions that avoid simple name-calling and generalizations like "choker."

Wheelhouse
07-22-2007, 03:08 PM
True.

You have written some of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen--and you're staying true to form.

Eric_Davis
07-22-2007, 03:14 PM
If you believe Brantley (and I'm nearly afraid to say this since a couple of people jumped all over me for saying it was much ado about nothing when Brantley said his "choke" thang), Coffey has no movement on his pitches and the straight shots are getting hit hard. He also made reference tonight about him not having enough pitches.

I have no reason to doubt what Jeff said, but does anyone out here see what Brantley sees. Amazingly enough, his pitches seem straighter than two years ago. But, I'm no expert.

I don't watch him as much as the rest of you, but I saw his fastball having good movement on it a couple of days ago and it helped me to understand why the REDS keep working with him to become a better pitcher. Some may not want to admit it, but 25% of Brantley's knowledge about Major League Baseball and especially Major League pitching is more than anyone here at REDSZONE or anyone that works for the Enquirer or Post including Trent know about the two subjects. And not having the ability to watch Coffey in person I know less about him than anyone who does get to see him on a regular basis "in person".

Eric_Davis
07-22-2007, 03:18 PM
Now these comments irritate the hell out of me. Do you think it's easy pitching in the major leagues? It's one of the hardest jobs on this earth to be successful in. You really have no perspective on that do you? It's not like he can just walk up to the mound and blow guys away whenever he wants. I gurantee you he's got more pride than anyone you know. How the hell else does he get to where he is currently? But it's damn hard, and every time he steps on the mound he's throwing every ounce of pride he has into getting the hitters out. But major league hitters are good. They're REAL good. And getting them out ain't easy, no matter what Marty or Brantley says. Good lord!

No one's job is easy. I doubt if Coffey could do your job, or you could do mine. His ability and effort should be measured by his peers, and he didn't step up. He did quite the opposite, confirming exactly what Brantley was talking about.

pedro
07-22-2007, 03:20 PM
You have written some of the most nonsensical posts I've ever seen--and you're staying true to form.

And you're one of the biggest jerks that ever graced the pages of Redszone and you're staying true to form as well.

(Mods, I apologize for the personal attack in advance and will gladly take whatever punishment you see fit. It just needed to be said. I need a vacation from this place anyway)

Eric_Davis
07-22-2007, 03:22 PM
I guess all this really depends upon where you're from. Maybe if you're from Cincinnati it's impolite to publicly call someone a choker, but if you're from Philadelphia or New York, it certainly isn't. From those cities, if you find being called a "choker" a problem, then there are some more descriptions of personality they have waiting for you worse than "choker".

It's personal preference, but I think most people prefer the more polite way of addressing one's deficiencies. I've always considered Steve Jones to be the perfect example of this, thus they try to team him with Bill Walton, who is of the Brantley type, lacking class and sensitivity.

Eric_Davis
07-22-2007, 03:30 PM
Maybe he's hurt.

Everyone trashed Milton, turns out he was hurt.

Few years ago everyone trashed Dempster, turns out he was hurt.

Maybe Todd's hurt.

Good point, Creek. I include myself as much as anybody, but all of us make judgements about situations without all the information available. The greatest and most humbling moments in life are when you come to understand a situation better because more information became available to you and it turns out that you couldn't have been more wrong about what you thought was happening.

RFS62
07-22-2007, 03:31 PM
It's not his opinion that's the problem. I don't think anyone here has a problem with Jeff's opinion. His manner of expressing it was crass and poor. But perhaps I'm just used to quality announcers that and express an opinion without sounding like an oaf.

If we on this message board want to rip players, call them chokers, etc. Then so be it. But Brantley is the voice of the Reds, and he should be able to make his points through descriptions that avoid simple name-calling and generalizations like "choker."


Exactly right. Well said.



I guess all this really depends upon where you're from. Maybe if you're from Cincinnati it's impolite to publicly call someone a choker, but if you're from Philadelphia or New York, it certainly isn't. From those cities, if you find being called a "choker" a problem, then there are some more descriptions of personality they have waiting for you worse than "choker".

It's personal preference, but I think most people prefer the more polite way of addressing one's deficiencies. I've always considered Steve Jones to be the perfect example of this, thus they try to team him with Bill Walton, who is of the Brantley type, lacking class and sensitivity.


I think it's less regional and more to the point of an athlete's sensibilities.

"Choker" is a vile word to an athlete, no matter where you're from.

Brantley knows that.

SandyD
07-22-2007, 03:33 PM
It's not that it's "impolite." It's "unprofessional." A broadcaster should be "professional" when on the air. At home, out with friends, it's a different matter. That's my take.

NJReds
07-22-2007, 03:40 PM
I guess all this really depends upon where you're from. Maybe if you're from Cincinnati it's impolite to publicly call someone a choker, but if you're from Philadelphia or New York, it certainly isn't. From those cities, if you find being called a "choker" a problem, then there are some more descriptions of personality they have waiting for you worse than "choker".

BS. I've been watching Yankee and Mets broadcasts for 30 years. I do not recall Bill White, Phil Rizzuto, Frank Messer, Jim Kaat, Ken Singleton, Tim McCarver, Charley Steiner, Ralph Kiner, Bob Murphy, Bobby Murcer, Michael Kay, John Sterling, Howie Rose, Gary Cohen, et al calling out players with crass insults. I'm not fond of Keith Hernandez for similar reasons, although I haven't heard him call Heilman a 'choker' even though he's struggled at times this year.

I can't speak for Philly, but I can't imagine the great Harry Kalas has referred to any of the Phillies as 'chokers.'

Your confusing fan gibberish with professional broadcasting. Again, it's not the analysis that's the problem here. It's the way that JB expressed it, and then capped it off with "He knows where I am."

Eric_Davis
07-22-2007, 04:11 PM
BS. I've been watching Yankee and Mets broadcasts for 30 years. I do not recall Bill White, Phil Rizzuto, Frank Messer, Jim Kaat, Ken Singleton, Tim McCarver, Charley Steiner, Ralph Kiner, Bob Murphy, Bobby Murcer, Michael Kay, John Sterling, Howie Rose, Gary Cohen, et al calling out players with crass insults. I'm not fond of Keith Hernandez for similar reasons, although I haven't heard him call Heilman a 'choker' even though he's struggled at times this year.

I can't speak for Philly, but I can't imagine the great Harry Kalas has referred to any of the Phillies as 'chokers.'

Your confusing fan gibberish with professional broadcasting. Again, it's not the analysis that's the problem here. It's the way that JB expressed it, and then capped it off with "He knows where I am."

That's true. Except for Keith Hernandez ("Women belong in the kitchen, not in the dugout."), Mets and Yankees broadcasters have been an example to all of how to conduct themselves properly publicly. I was thinking of the newspapers, and I shouldn't have crossed print journalism with broadcast journalism.

NJReds
07-22-2007, 04:13 PM
That's true. Except for Keith Hernandez ("Women belong in the kitchen, not in the dugout."), Mets and Yankees broadcasters have been an example to all of how to conduct themselves properly publicly. I was thinking of the newspapers, and I shouldn't have crossed print journalism with broadcast journalism.

The NY Post and the NY Daily news are tabloids whose columnists can be harsh on players. Talk radio as well can be tough as well.

And I do agree that the NY media is much tougher on the pro teams than the Cincinnati media is to its teams.

However I do separate the teams' broadcasters from the beat writers and talking heads that cover the team.

Wheelhouse
07-22-2007, 04:20 PM
And you're one of the biggest jerks that ever graced the pages of Redszone and you're staying true to form as well.

(Mods, I apologize for the personal attack in advance and will gladly take whatever punishment you see fit. It just needed to be said. I need a vacation from this place anyway)

Wow, a conscious, premeditated flouting of the board rules. I agree with you--you do need a little bit of time to cool off.

KittyDuran
07-22-2007, 06:57 PM
Trying to help? come on..he's a broadcaster, if the players are listening to what the broadcast crew is saying we have big problems :lol: all Brantley trying to do is get noticed, and it workedPrecisely... and 83 posts (with 84 being my own) over this is pretty amazing and pretty sad to read (personal attacks) :(.

I might be wrong but could the fact that Coffey's brother is a member of RZ have something to do with the outrage? Also, Coffey is a all around good stand-up guy and he's going against Black Bart! As another brought up, if it was Stanton, Castro or any other whipping boy of RZ, I'm pretty sure not a peep would've been heard.

membengal
07-22-2007, 07:07 PM
Saying that a player seemingly folds under pressure is "hate-speach" or hate filled? Please.

Saying he's a pedifile with no evidence. Calling into question his fidelity to his wife. Saying he's no good because he's from a certian part of the country, or is part of a certian ethnic group. Saying he's mentally incompetant. Calling into question the marital status of his parents at the time of his conception. Claiming he's inferior because of his religon.

Those are comments that are typically fueled by hate. Let's not dumb down the definition of "hate speach" by including pointing out a ballplayer might not function as well under pressure as he would in less tense situations.

No, your bolded part wouldn't be.

But did he put it the way you just did? Did he? Did he?

No, he did not.

What he did was pandering, and very much in line with the sewage that spews from WLW on a regular basis.

Always Red
07-22-2007, 08:02 PM
As another brought up, if it was Stanton, Castro or any other whipping boy of RZ, I'm pretty sure not a peep would've been heard.

Not true for me, Kitty. Even if Joe Nuxhall (I love Joe) himself would have called Joe Mays or even (gasp) Rickey Stone (well, Joe wouldn't do that because Rickey is from Hamilton!) a choker, I would have been severely disappointed.

It's about the "professionalism" thing for me, that's all there is to it. Harry Kalas, and all that, from previous posters who write much more eloquently than I do.

Look, I know some of these guys flat out suck. It's one thing for us to debate that here, or for me to say it to my wife or kids, or buddies, but it's another thing for a guy to state it on Reds radio, then verify it, and then tell a reporter that Coffey "knows where to find me."

It is a tough time to be a Reds fan, for sure. And I do think that Brantley is a Reds fan.

I do really like JB in the booth; I think he has improved Marty's performance this year. I love listening to JB talk about pitching (I've learned more about pitching since I stopped pitching in American Legion ball- a thousand years ago!) I don't want to fire the guy at all. I just think it was wrong, that's all. There are a million and one ways of saying a guy is a choker without using the word.

Maybe I'm just old? :(

Me? Shoot, I even stood up for Uncle Milty and Juan Castro (once upon a time). :D

Ltlabner
07-22-2007, 09:16 PM
But did he put it the way you just did? Did he? Did he?

Is my answer supposed to change as you keep asking the question? :confused:

membengal
07-22-2007, 09:22 PM
Doubt it. Trying to understand why you change what Brantley said and ask why it wouldn't have been ok like that. It would have been fine like your change was. That's the point.

But Brantley didn't do that. He went to what is pretty much a four letter word among ballplayers. And I would expect professional broadcasters to be above such things.

My expectations are apparently too high.

Ltlabner
07-22-2007, 09:38 PM
He went to what is pretty much a four letter word among ballplayers.

I wouldn't expect a fully grown man, and major league baseball player, to have an existiental freakout over a simple word like choker. Getting your shorts in a bunch because someone claims you choke is junior highschool behavior at best. How about this, go out, crush the other team, and leave nothing to doubt? There's just no equating choker to a whole host of other actual slurs.

Then again, maybe I expect too much.

BTW, I find it humorus that Brantley is being pilloried for being too much of a jock and a meathead, yet the source of the bru-ha-ha is a concept that exemplifies being a meathead jock (that is, being enraged that someone would say you are a "choker"). What's next, getting in a huff because someone doesn't think your Firebird is boss?

Chip R
07-22-2007, 11:15 PM
I think this discussion has played itself out.