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RedLegSuperStar
07-22-2007, 08:47 PM
Fay -


I expect the Reds will make a couple of moves today. Get the old Louisville bullpen shuffle going.

Todd Coffey and Kirk Saarloos out, Bill Bray and Gary Majewski or Bill Bray in, perhaps? I'm just guessing.

And if you thought Kyle Lohse has lost all trade value, consider this: Lohse's ERA (4.71) is lower than three of the four starters Milwaukee will run out against the Reds in the upcoming series. Chris Capuano comes in at 4.96, Jeff Suppan at 4.92, and Dave Bush at 4.83.

A better bullpen and offense will help you record. Lohse is 5-12. Suppan and Bush are 8-8. Capuano is 5-6.

Harang is listed as the starter so he's back up. I think Bray will be up before tomorrows game. I thought earlier in the week I heard Hamilton will be eligible to come off the DL so he maybe up here. Also I think Alex Gonzalez will be back tomorrow. There's sure to be some moves tomorrow..

flyer85
07-22-2007, 08:51 PM
Majewski ... ack.

Salmon was a lot better him.

RedLegSuperStar
07-22-2007, 08:56 PM
My guess though..

Aaron Harang re-instated from the bereavement list, Alex Gonzalez re-instated from the restricted list, and Bill Bray called-up from Louisville. Chad Moeller and Ricky Stone designated for assignment, Todd Coffey sent to Louisville / or possibly a DL move


I got to think they will send Hamilton to Louisville to get some at bats.

CTA513
07-22-2007, 09:17 PM
Majewski ... ack.

Salmon was a lot better him.

The decision should be easy, but I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Majewski up here and Salmon still in Louisville.

Always Red
07-22-2007, 09:23 PM
The decision should be easy, but I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Majewski up here and Salmon still in Louisville.

Well, Salmon will be here next year, for sure. Options, and all.

They need to see if Maj can still pitch or not. If not, he's out of here, next.
He looked a lot like Coffey last time I saw him pitch. 95mph, right over the heart of the plate, with no movement, and no breaking balls.

We're not playing to win right now. They have to be building for next year.

Off topic, but I'm not sure Kriv will survive his 2007 bullpen reconstruction.

GAC
07-22-2007, 09:36 PM
Is anyone else tired of hearing "our guys have good stuff, yet seem to throw bad pitches" reasoning? I've been hearing it all year.

It's like they are saying some of our guys have what it takes, as far as "stuff", but somehow lose their focus and leave a pitch here and there over the plate, which ends up burning them.

And I'm also tired of hearing the "we need to make quality pitches" remark too.

Maybe, just maybe, when you have the worst BP in the NL, these guys don't have the stuff? ;)

flyer85
07-22-2007, 09:36 PM
The decision should be easy, but I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Majewski up here and Salmon still in Louisville.they do seem to have a tin ear for the bullpen stuff.

My advice is focus bat missers and don't worry as much about the other stuff.

Bring up Bray(16K in 9.2) and either Salmon or McBeth. Majewski is toast.

KronoRed
07-22-2007, 09:43 PM
Majewski? I'd rather keep Coffey up here.

Always Red
07-22-2007, 09:44 PM
Is anyone else tired of hearing "our guys have good stuff, yet seem to throw bad pitches" reasoning? I've been hearing it all year.

It's like they are saying some of our guys have what it takes, as far as "stuff", but somehow lose their focus and leave a pitch here and there over the plate, which ends up burning them.

And I'm also tired of hearing the "we need to make quality pitches" remark too.

Maybe, just maybe, when you have the worst BP in the NL, these guys don't have the stuff? ;)

Well, since you posted after my comment, GAC, I'll assume you were commenting on my post. If not, I apologize for the assumption.

I did not say that either Coffey or Majewski had good stuff.

I said:


He looked a lot like Coffey last time I saw him pitch. 95mph, right over the heart of the plate, with no movement, and no breaking balls.

That's not to imply that they have good stuff.

If I implied anything, it's that they are throwers rather than pitchers.


Maybe, just maybe, when you have the worst BP in the NL, these guys don't have the stuff?

I totally agree. This is the worst bullpen I've ever seen the Reds have. Bar none.

Krivsky transformed this bullpen from one of soft-tossers to one of hard throwers, and it's worse than it ever has been.

Always Red
07-22-2007, 09:48 PM
Majewski is toast.

Since they're already paying him, and the season is lost, I'd give Majewski one more shot to see if he can come up with any movement or command. If he fails, then cut your losses now, and you won't have him hanging around in ST next year.

Just last year, this guy was a good set-up man. Yes, he's been awful as a Red, no doubt. It's worth a shot, since there is literally nothing to lose, to see if he can regain his form. I know it's a long shot, but do you keep running Coffey out there?

flyer85
07-22-2007, 09:49 PM
I did not say that either Coffey or Majewski had they don't. They both can throw pretty hard but neither has an out pitch. Instead they rely heavily on the vagaries of BABIP and their defense.

What the Reds need are guys that have an out pitch. It will show up with Ks. If the reason Bray is not here is a 6+ ERA that is a mistake. His 16/2 KK to B ratio says he is more likely a victim of bad luck more than anything else.

flyer85
07-22-2007, 09:51 PM
Since they're already paying him, and the season is lost, I'd give Majewski one more shot to see if he can come up with any movement or command. He's never really had it, I don't know what people were/are expecting. When the Reds made "the trade" I pointed out he was exactly the wrong kind of reliever they needed to be acquiring. Non bat-missing relievers with an elevated BB rate are extremely volatile and living on borrowed time.

Cedric
07-22-2007, 09:51 PM
I swear it seems like yesterday that the Pirates and Reds were two of the top organizations in the sport. Now they get mentioned together only in their futility and what players they might unload.

Sad really.

RedsManRick
07-22-2007, 09:56 PM
Do these guys actually accomplish anything in Louisville, or do we just get to send them down so that they can beat up on AAA guys and we can fool ourselves in to thinking something has changed.

If Majewski a different pitcher now than he was 2 months ago? How about Coffey? I see as much evidence of a poor coaching staff as I do of bad players.

jojo
07-22-2007, 10:05 PM
Do these guys actually accomplish anything in Louisville, or do we just get to send them down so that they can beat up on AAA guys and we can fool ourselves in to thinking something has changed.

If Majewski a different pitcher now than he was 2 months ago? How about Coffey? I see as much evidence of a poor coaching staff as I do of bad players.

It's really just the AAAA shuttle. Rotate, lather, rinse, repeat. Coffey and Co aren't working on their games at this point. In AAA the goal is just for them to get in some work and not get moldy. They're part of a rotating pool of somewhat useful, somewhat freely available developed talent that ebbs and flows between the holding tank portion of AAA (becoming more and more the true function of AAA) and the margins of modern rosters.

KronoRed
07-22-2007, 10:11 PM
Since they're already paying him, and the season is lost, I'd give Majewski one more shot to see if he can come up with any movement or command. If he fails, then cut your losses now, and you won't have him hanging around in ST next year.

Just last year, this guy was a good set-up man. Yes, he's been awful as a Red, no doubt. It's worth a shot, since there is literally nothing to lose, to see if he can regain his form. I know it's a long shot, but do you keep running Coffey out there?
They have a lot more money tied up in Coffey then they do in Magic, I'd rather let Coffey work it out up here.

flyer85
07-22-2007, 10:14 PM
They have a lot more money tied up in Coffey then they do in Magic, I'd rather let Coffey work it out up here.coffey needs to go back to AAA and be told to work on an out pitch. I don't care whether its his slider or splitter but if he is to have long term success one of the two must become a plus pitch.

There is really no money tied up in Majik and only a little in Coffey. The Reds need to worry about performance and forget about the money.

coachw513
07-22-2007, 11:22 PM
Quite honestly it doesn't matter to me who the Reds use from the pen right now as long as it is one of the guys who might actually develop in the future...as much as Weathers has been outstanding this year, and Stanton has been very useful less a couple of outings, those guys just have to be moved by the deadline by my standards...

And after watching the horror movie known as Saarloos the past 2 days in person, it goes without saying that he needs to be sent down as well...

I have absolutely no problem watching the likes of McBeth, Gosling, Burton, Coffey etc struggle to close games or keep them close for the remainder of the year...can we just begin figuring out who among them actually might succeed next year and beyond???

The last 2 days were insane and literally you could feel the life simply being sucked out of the Reds when Pete had to stroll to the mound...I thought it was hard to watch on TV but this was tortuous :eek:

GAC
07-23-2007, 09:20 AM
Well, since you posted after my comment, GAC, I'll assume you were commenting on my post. If not, I apologize for the assumption.

I did not say that either Coffey or Majewski had good stuff.

I said:



That's not to imply that they have good stuff.

If I implied anything, it's that they are throwers rather than pitchers.



I totally agree. This is the worst bullpen I've ever seen the Reds have. Bar none.

Krivsky transformed this bullpen from one of soft-tossers to one of hard throwers, and it's worse than it ever has been.

No, I wasn't referring to your post.

Just a random thought because I have heard everyone from Narron to the Reds announcers, and now Pete, make those comments. ;)

GAC
07-23-2007, 09:24 AM
Majewski? I'd rather keep Coffey up here.

I don't want neither. And Coffey is a choker!

http://frankthetank.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/ozzie-guillen-choke.jpg

:mooner:

membengal
07-23-2007, 10:05 AM
...

bucksfan2
07-23-2007, 10:15 AM
coffey needs to go back to AAA and be told to work on an out pitch. I don't care whether its his slider or splitter but if he is to have long term success one of the two must become a plus pitch.

There is really no money tied up in Majik and only a little in Coffey. The Reds need to worry about performance and forget about the money.

Im done with Coffey and want him out of this organization. I voiced displeasure with him this spring when he came into camp fat, out of shape and talking about how he wanted another shot at the closer job. He continues to rely on one pitch and really has not shown any ability to improve or become a good reliever. I have heard over and over again Jeff Brantly saying that he has the stuff to become a very good reliever but he just can't put it all together. It is true that he is young and has a good arm but he has shown absolutly zilch in terms of improving as a pitcher.

M2
07-23-2007, 10:39 AM
The Reds need to remake this franchise and what do we get instead? Yet another pointless reliever shuffle.

You have to wonder if this franchise quite understands its predicament.

flyer85
07-23-2007, 10:44 AM
You have to wonder if this franchise quite understands its predicament.Honestly I think they do understand it. What they haven't come to grips with are the hard decisions that need to be made moving forward. They are not "just a few players away" from competing.

LincolnparkRed
07-23-2007, 10:46 AM
The Reds need to remake this franchise and what do we get instead? Yet another pointless reliever shuffle.

You have to wonder if this franchise quite understands its predicament.
I quit wondering a long time ago. It has been how many years of once player/s x and or y come back we will be rolling. The worst part is one year it was Josh Hancock, this year it was Majic and Bray. Thinking small begets small moves. I say blow it up and turn into the Marlins of 2006 for the rest of the year, play the AAA and AA guys that might have a future, no Bellhorns or Stones please.

Kc61
07-23-2007, 10:46 AM
They have a lot more money tied up in Coffey then they do in Magic, I'd rather let Coffey work it out up here.

Work out what?

I've now changed my mind about trading Weathers. I would keep him. I would also keep Guardado. I would acquire two good relievers this trade deadline and off-season. I would get Bray up here.

Two new guys, Weathers, Guardado, Bray. You might have a decent bullpen.

Bringing young guys along is great, if they have major league stuff. I'm afraid that many of the Reds' young relievers just don't.

I thought Salmon did ok. Coutlangus against lefties, with a day off once in awhile. I like Roenicke and Pelland at AA who throw hard and have a chance. Not impressed otherwise.

Roy Tucker
07-23-2007, 10:51 AM
The Reds need to remake this franchise and what do we get instead? Yet another pointless reliever shuffle.

You have to wonder if this franchise quite understands its predicament.

I agree. All this micro-managing of the Cinci-Louisville shuttle is getting a little silly. They keep trying to find a guy who is on a statistical upswing and then ride the curve upwards all based on small sample sizes. The system is thrashing. Lots of paging and swapping and no real work getting done.

The Reds are trying to rebuild a bullpen on the fly which is a bit like flying a 747 from NY to LA and doing a hot-swap replacement of engines in mid-flight.

BRM
07-23-2007, 11:11 AM
Honestly I think they do understand it. What they haven't come to grips with are the hard decisions that need to be made moving forward. They are not "just a few players away" from competing.

I honestly don't know if the front office agrees with you. It would not surprise me if they believed this team is a few bullpen arms away from contention.

nate
07-23-2007, 11:17 AM
I honestly don't know if the front office agrees with you. It would not surprise me if they believed this team is a few bullpen arms away from contention.

If they had a few good bullpen arms, playing in this year's NL Central, they _would_ be "in contention."

flyer85
07-23-2007, 11:20 AM
I honestly don't know if the front office agrees with you. It would not surprise me if they believed this team is a few bullpen arms away from contention.I think WK is in a catch-22. He's caught between knowing he has to rebuild and knowing he can't without losing his job.

That's why my predicition is he will trade Dunn for magic beans. It's the only potential deal he can make that COULD possibly change the immediate(could be for the better or worse) future. I think he will take the gamble because at this point it's the only chance, albeit a small one, to be around a few years from now.

paulrichjr
07-23-2007, 12:22 PM
I think WK is in a catch-22. He's caught between knowing he has to rebuild and knowing he can't without losing his job.

That's why my predicition is he will trade Dunn for magic beans. It's the only potential deal he can make that COULD possibly change the immediate(could be for the better or worse) future. I think he will take the gamble because at this point it's the only chance, albeit a small one, to be around a few years from now.


You might be right but I hope that you are not. Wayne needs to feel that he is going to be with the Reds next year and should not feel that his job could be over at the end of this season. We must find stability in this organization and constantly changing GMs is not helping us.

flyer85
07-23-2007, 12:27 PM
We must find stability in this organization and constantly changing GMs is not helping us.if "win now" isn't an issue and wasn't the reason DanO was fired than I have misread Castellini.

paulrichjr
07-23-2007, 01:11 PM
if "win now" isn't an issue and wasn't the reason DanO was fired than I have misread Castellini.

I agree...and his attitude toward "win now" CAN work if you are willing to spend the money like George is but it is doomed to failure if you are not.

I love the way the Indians have run their organization for the last 12 years or so...which is why I wish that the Reds had looked there for a GM instead of to Minnesota. They sacrificed for just a couple of years and now have built a team that should be in the hunt for another 5 years or so. Cast might be win now but he better get his checkbook out this winter if that is true.

Danny Serafini
07-23-2007, 01:19 PM
Hope you weren't expecting much in the way of moves today. Only move made is sending down Stone to make room for Harang according to team press notes.

BRM
07-23-2007, 01:25 PM
Hope you weren't expecting much in the way of moves today. Only move made is sending down Stone to make room for Harang according to team press notes.

That's not surprising. I really didn't expect anything more than Harang's return anyway.

Jpup
07-23-2007, 01:45 PM
Rumors right now include Conine to the Yankees and still Dunn to LA.

PuffyPig
07-23-2007, 01:52 PM
What the Reds need are guys that have an out pitch. It will show up with Ks. If the reason Bray is not here is a 6+ ERA that is a mistake. His 16/2 KK to B ratio says he is more likely a victim of bad luck more than anything else.

I checked because I knew you must be right.

Bray has a 7.56 ERA which looks bad. His K/W ratio is 13/2(based on the stats I saw, I beleive it is now 16/2). he has given up 0 HR's. His BABIP is an unreal .512. It leads to a DIPS ERA of 0.80.

He's pitched great. Get him up here if his health is OK.

wheels
07-23-2007, 02:13 PM
I don't think anyone in the Reds organization uses BABIP, or even knows it exists.

RedLegSuperStar
07-23-2007, 03:03 PM
Rumors right now include Conine to the Yankees and still Dunn to LA.

Angels or Dodgers?

Spitball
07-23-2007, 03:47 PM
I love the way the Indians have run their organization for the last 12 years or so...which is why I wish that the Reds had looked there for a GM instead of to Minnesota.

I don't understand why. I like the way the Indians have done things also, but over the past five years, the Twins have been a better organization averaging 91 wins to the Indians' average of 78.6.

The Indians have done a good job of rebuilding, but I prefer the Twins ability to draft and acquire pitching. It was relief pitching that derailed the Indians in 2006, and they are 10th in ERA in the AL this season.


They sacrificed for just a couple of years and now have built a team that should be in the hunt for another 5 years or so.

That's what people were saying after 2005 but started retracting a bit after 2006.

NJReds
07-23-2007, 03:49 PM
Rumors right now include Conine to the Yankees and still Dunn to LA.

I wonder if the Yankees are still after Conine. They've been getting decent production from Phillips, and the rookie Shelley Duncan had three homeruns this weekend after his callup from AAA. Giambi might be back in August, as well.

Jpup
07-24-2007, 01:54 AM
Angels or Dodgers?

Angels.