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View Full Version : Complaints about Dunn. Not related to K's or D.



dfs
07-23-2007, 10:17 PM
For all the spring training talk about how Adam Dunn was going to change his
approach to hitting, I just don't see it. I would make him sit down and watch one of the tapes of Hatteberg hitting. (yeah, I know they don't really have tape anymore) Hatteberg just flips that outside pitch down the left field line or into the hole. It's to the point where pitchers don't throw him a pitch on the outside of the plate because it's pretty much a sure single. If Dunn would learn to do that, he would be better than Pujols. Instead he has to hit everything to the right side. It's really tiresome.I don't mind the K's, but this is just painful to watch.

jojo
07-23-2007, 10:26 PM
For all the spring training talk about how Adam Dunn was going to change his
approach to hitting, I just don't see it. I would make him sit down and watch one of the tapes of Hatteberg hitting. (yeah, I know they don't really have tape anymore) Hatteberg just flips that outside pitch down the left field line or into the hole. It's to the point where pitchers don't throw him a pitch on the outside of the plate because it's pretty much a sure single. If Dunn would learn to do that, he would be better than Pujols. Instead he has to hit everything to the right side. It's really tiresome.I don't mind the K's, but this is just painful to watch.

Ya. Just the other day I was thinking that Dunn would be a much better hitter if he gave up roughly 20 pts of OBP and 100 pts of SLG for his career.

:D

Spitball
07-23-2007, 11:28 PM
For all the spring training talk about how Adam Dunn was going to change his
approach to hitting, I just don't see it. I would make him sit down and watch one of the tapes of Hatteberg hitting. (yeah, I know they don't really have tape anymore) Hatteberg just flips that outside pitch down the left field line or into the hole. It's to the point where pitchers don't throw him a pitch on the outside of the plate because it's pretty much a sure single. If Dunn would learn to do that, he would be better than Pujols. Instead he has to hit everything to the right side. It's really tiresome.I don't mind the K's, but this is just painful to watch.

I see your point. If Dunn could protect against certain pitches, he could be a better hitter. You are right.

TOBTTReds
07-23-2007, 11:44 PM
Ya. Just the other day I was thinking that Dunn would be a much better hitter if he gave up roughly 20 pts of OBP and 100 pts of SLG for his career.

:D

I don't think his slugging would really go down much. He is strong like bull, not like Hatteberg. Also, he didn't say swing at more either, so his OBP could actually go up. I know you gave a smiley there, but I still felt like it was half serious.

RedsManRick
07-23-2007, 11:54 PM
Let's not confuse willingness for ability. You don't see Bronson Arroyo trying to blow fastballs past guys and you don't see Dave Ross bunting for hits.

I agree 100% that if Dunn could flip the outside pitch to left field he would be a better hitter. I also think that if he were able to that with any reliability, he would.

TOBTTReds
07-24-2007, 12:13 AM
Let's not confuse willingness for ability. You don't see Bronson Arroyo trying to blow fastballs past guys and you don't see Dave Ross bunting for hits.

I agree 100% that if Dunn could flip the outside pitch to left field he would be a better hitter. I also think that if he were able to that with any reliability, he would.

You see it every once in a while though. We've seen good controlled 2 handed swings from him the last month, so as the scouts say, you only need to see it once to know it is in there.

coachw513
07-24-2007, 12:18 AM
I understand the sentiment because I enjoy watching Hatteberg hit more than I do Dunn...but my eyes are simply wrong in this case (I realize we were simply talking about the "poke it to left field" scenario)

Under every conceivable scenario, this year and for career, Dunn has been more effective than Hatteberg:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6763/season_by_all_batting_splits.html (Dunn's '07 splits)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/5514/season_by_all_batting_splits.html (Hatteberg's '07 splits)

I hate learning I am wrong :rolleyes:

Patrick Bateman
07-24-2007, 12:32 AM
Hatteberg may have the bets approach to hitting that I have ever seen. It's very rare that he swings at a pitch that he doesn't think he can hit. He has tremendous vision of the strikezone, and he knows what pitches he can hit.

I would say that just about any hitter could learn from Hatteberg's game. Whether that would improve Dunn or not is a different matter, but if there is anyone who gets the most out of their abilities, it is Hatteberg. If Hatteberg had Dunn's power, he would be an amazing hitter. Probably Pujols-esque. He just doesn' have the top end ability.

Down the road, I would love Hatteberg to be the Reds hitting coach. His approach to hitting is absolutely top notch. He goes up to the plate simply looking for pitches that he can hit. If he can't the hit the pitch he let's it go by. It's not that he goes up the plate with the thought of going for walks, it's that he is more than willing to take them given the opportunity. As I said, his ability to recognize pitch location is really second to none IMO.

Crash Davis
07-24-2007, 01:39 AM
Adam Dunn. Such a lightning rod on this site and in this city.

I don't remember being more excited about a player coming through the minors than I was about Adam Dunn. I don't remember being more at odds with a whole fan base than I've been with Adam Dunn and most of the Reds fans of the past five years. He's been one of my favorite players ever to wear a Reds uniform, and I still have trouble believing how much he's been singled out as a true problem even though he's been carrying this Reds offense since his debut.

Still, he's without a doubt the most frustrating player to watch day-in and day-out since I've been following the Reds. I love the guy. I wouldn't trade him unless I got bowled over with a ludicrous offer. I appreciate what he offers to a team. But, damn, he could be so much better. He could be so much smarter as a hitter. My biggest problem with Adam Dunn isn't "strikeouts" or "defense", per se. It's that he's actually regressed in every phase of the game since his rookie season. I always expected him to build on his impressive debut, and continue to grow as a player. I was wrong.

Not only has Dunn regressed as an overall talent, but he still has the same achilles heal he had five years ago: he refuses to hit situationally. This isn't a matter of talent to take an outside pitch the other way, or skill to protect the strikezone. It's strictly mindset. Good baseball players hit to the situation every time. You go up to the plate with a plan in mind, and you do not resolve to hit a HR every time...just ask Andruw Jones. There are times for walks, there are times where it makes every bit of sense to swing from the heels, and there are times to protect the plate. Adam Dunn does not change his approach, and the larger problem is that he does have the talent to do so. Sure, it gets over-emphasized by George Grande, and the ESPN houseboys get the memo every year to hand-wring it all seaosn, but it's true: you have to hit situationally to win baseball games. There's simply no denying it.

Adam Dunn is a tremendous offensive force...as well as my favorite Red since Eric Davis. But he hasn't given himself a fair chance to improve as a hitter.

Ron Madden
07-24-2007, 02:01 AM
If Player #1 could only be like player #2.

We would have two Player #2's and cease to possess Player #1.

Ron Madden
07-24-2007, 02:13 AM
Adam Dunn. Such a lightning rod on this site and in this city.

I don't remember being more excited about a player coming through the minors than I was about Adam Dunn. I don't remember being more at odds with a whole fan base than I've been with Adam Dunn and most of the Reds fans of the past five years. He's been one of my favorite players ever to wear a Reds uniform, and I still have trouble believing how much he's been singled out as a true problem even though he's been carrying this Reds offense since his debut.

Still, he's without a doubt the most frustrating player to watch day-in and day-out since I've been following the Reds. I love the guy. I wouldn't trade him unless I got bowled over with a ludicrous offer. I appreciate what he offers to a team. But, damn, he could be so much better. He could be so much smarter as a hitter. My biggest problem with Adam Dunn isn't "strikeouts" or "defense", per se. It's that he's actually regressed in every phase of the game since his rookie season. I always expected him to build on his impressive debut, and continue to grow as a player. I was wrong.

Not only has Dunn regressed as an overall talent, but he still has the same achilles heal he had five years ago: he refuses to hit situationally. This isn't a matter of talent to take an outside pitch the other way, or skill to protect the strikezone. It's strictly mindset. Good baseball players hit to the situation every time. You go up to the plate with a plan in mind, and you do not resolve to hit a HR every time...just ask Andruw Jones. There are times for walks, there are times where it makes every bit of sense to swing from the heels, and there are times to protect the plate. Adam Dunn does not change his approach, and the larger problem is that he does have the talent to do so. Sure, it gets over-emphasized by George Grande, and the ESPN houseboys get the memo every year to hand-wring it all seaosn, but it's true: you have to hit situationally to win baseball games. There's simply no denying it.

Adam Dunn is a tremendous offensive force...as well as my favorite Red since Eric Davis. But he hasn't given himself a fair chance to improve as a hitter.


I like Dunn's approach at the plate, he waits for a pitch he can drive and let's the ones he can't hit hard pass. Sometimes he gets fooled and and takes good pitches.

Why swing at something you can't do anything with?

RANDY IN INDY
07-24-2007, 08:48 AM
Adam Dunn. Such a lightning rod on this site and in this city.

I don't remember being more excited about a player coming through the minors than I was about Adam Dunn. I don't remember being more at odds with a whole fan base than I've been with Adam Dunn and most of the Reds fans of the past five years. He's been one of my favorite players ever to wear a Reds uniform, and I still have trouble believing how much he's been singled out as a true problem even though he's been carrying this Reds offense since his debut.

Still, he's without a doubt the most frustrating player to watch day-in and day-out since I've been following the Reds. I love the guy. I wouldn't trade him unless I got bowled over with a ludicrous offer. I appreciate what he offers to a team. But, damn, he could be so much better. He could be so much smarter as a hitter. My biggest problem with Adam Dunn isn't "strikeouts" or "defense", per se. It's that he's actually regressed in every phase of the game since his rookie season. I always expected him to build on his impressive debut, and continue to grow as a player. I was wrong.

Not only has Dunn regressed as an overall talent, but he still has the same achilles heal he had five years ago: he refuses to hit situationally. This isn't a matter of talent to take an outside pitch the other way, or skill to protect the strikezone. It's strictly mindset. Good baseball players hit to the situation every time. You go up to the plate with a plan in mind, and you do not resolve to hit a HR every time...just ask Andruw Jones. There are times for walks, there are times where it makes every bit of sense to swing from the heels, and there are times to protect the plate. Adam Dunn does not change his approach, and the larger problem is that he does have the talent to do so. Sure, it gets over-emphasized by George Grande, and the ESPN houseboys get the memo every year to hand-wring it all seaosn, but it's true: you have to hit situationally to win baseball games. There's simply no denying it.

Adam Dunn is a tremendous offensive force...as well as my favorite Red since Eric Davis. But he hasn't given himself a fair chance to improve as a hitter.

Really good post, Crash.:beerme:

jojo
07-24-2007, 08:52 AM
I don't think his slugging would really go down much. He is strong like bull, not like Hatteberg. Also, he didn't say swing at more either, so his OBP could actually go up. I know you gave a smiley there, but I still felt like it was half serious.

I know what youre suggesting seems like an easy thing. But truthfully, I think it's just not that easy for a 27 year old to effectively change his approach at the plate without risking a negative effect on his production.

RANDY IN INDY
07-24-2007, 09:11 AM
If he would work at it, maybe his production would go up.

NJReds
07-24-2007, 09:12 AM
It was a long time ago, and there was no such thing as message boards and sports talk radio or ESPN, but I seem to remember hearing similar complaints about Reggie Jackson when he was a Yankee.

Those three homeruns against the Dodgers stopped most of that and he became a Yankee legend.

Spitball
07-24-2007, 06:09 PM
This probably has already been posted, but I think it pretty much sizes up what the eyes tell us.

http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2007/06/adam-dunns-plate-discipline.html

Also, I have a hypothetical question. This has probably already been addressed, but I always stay away from Adam Dunn threads.

If Adam Dunn could cut his strikeouts by 50, what would be the results?

The way I figure it (and I may have figured it incorrectly) Dunn hit .357 last year when he put the ball in play. So, if Dunn had learned to cut down on his swing enough to reduce his strikeouts by 50, wouldn't it likely have meant an additional 18 hits last year?

Jojo, I believe Mike Schmidt significantly cut his K's at an even older age.

Redsland
07-25-2007, 10:04 AM
PC's methodology assumes that the batter has made a mistake if he fails to swing at a called strike. Which, of course, presupposes that umpires never make bad calls. And that all strikes should be swung at, which is simply not true. There's also something unseemly about the fact that two-strike fouls are good, yet other fouls are bad. I understand the thought process behind it (protect the plate), but there seems to be a bias here toward contact hitting as opposed to impact hitting, if that's a term.

deltachi8
07-25-2007, 12:53 PM
Why swing at something you can't do anything with?

Excellent point

RANDY IN INDY
07-25-2007, 01:27 PM
Do some of you guys truly believe that "all" the pitches that Adam Dunn doesn't swing at are pitches that he cannot handle? I truly appreciate the things that Adam Dunn does well, but I have never believed that he cannot improve on his areas of weakness.

Patrick Bateman
07-25-2007, 02:14 PM
Do some of you guys truly believe that "all" the pitches that Adam Dunn doesn't swing at are pitches that he cannot handle? I truly appreciate the things that Adam Dunn does well, but I have never believed that he cannot improve on his areas of weakness.

Definiely not. Dunn for the most part is still very susceptible to breaking pitches under the strikezone (that being the biggest negative in hs plate approach). Most other pitches and locations he has a very good ability to recognize.

Chip R
07-25-2007, 02:20 PM
I like Dunn's approach at the plate, he waits for a pitch he can drive and let's the ones he can't hit hard pass. Sometimes he gets fooled and and takes good pitches.

Why swing at something you can't do anything with?


Some people feel that a player like Dunn shouldn't be walking as much as he does because he takes pitches that are balls that could be hit for base hits and RBIs if only he would swing at them.

Hoosier Red
07-25-2007, 04:19 PM
The problem I see with the strikeouts does have to do with Dunn's approach.
There are certain pitches that will be strikes that he will not swing at.(The pitches he can't "drive")
But they are still strikes. And it doesn't seem to matter if they are strike three he still won't swing.
The problem with only picking pitches you can drive is you are basically limiting yourself to pitchers mistakes.
A guy like Dunn is strong enough to muscle some borderline pitches into the outfield for a hit.

When people talk about expanding your strike zone with two strikes. They're not talking about swinging at balls, they're talking about swinging at strikes where you can't necessarily drive them.