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View Full Version : Reasonable Bullpen Innings expectations?



Orenda
07-24-2007, 05:08 PM
Isn't it time to see a heavy rotation of Burton, Salmon, McBeth, Coutlangus, Gosling, and Bray? As well as another call-up of Elizardo and potentially Dumatrait. Its my opinion its past time to make some room to start building the bullpen for next season, and we could potentially have 2-3 cheap effective middle relievers out of that group. I would like to see the relievers get around 35-40 Innings pitched (coutlangus excluded). Most importantly, I want them to get a lot of innings against division hitters and see how they can handle adjustments that will be made against them after more exposure. What does everybody think? How much work would you like to see these guys get the rest of the way?

jamess697
07-24-2007, 11:26 PM
Anyone else sick of seeing Saarlos, Coffey, and Stanton. I honestly believe bad things are going to happen when I see them come into the game. Can McBeth, Salmon, and Dumatrait do any worse?

captainmorgan07
07-24-2007, 11:46 PM
count me as one of them who is sick of all 3

uoduck1017
07-24-2007, 11:49 PM
It is unfortunate that Stanton has stunk it up lately, basically negating any trade value. Also, I would be surprised if the Reds ate that contract and released him. Hopefully Big Bob understands and allows Wayne to dump Stanton.

REDblooded
07-24-2007, 11:53 PM
Anyone else sick of seeing Saarlos, Coffey, and Stanton. I honestly believe bad things are going to happen when I see them come into the game. Can McBeth, Salmon, and Dumatrait do any worse?


They would have to try REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hard, but I guess it's possible.

Jefferson24
07-24-2007, 11:54 PM
I'm sick of a lot of players on this team. I'm even growing tired of watching or listening to the games because some of these dead weight, roster spot stealing, has been or never was kind of guys. There's only 7 or 8 guys on the current roster that I want to see stay, let the rest of them go.

I'm really looking forward to some trades. If we don't do much I'll be tuning in a lot less the rest of this year.

HokieRed
07-25-2007, 12:23 AM
I share the weariness in watching the same old failures over and over. I am feeling a little better about the bullpen, though, particularly for next year. I hope we keep Weathers, because I just can't see trading the best reliever we have when the bullpen is as weak as it is. To me, he's the MVP of this team. Next year I see this as a start: Weathers, Bray, Coutlangus, Gosling, Belisle, Burton, and one other of Stanton, Salmon, McBeth, Majewski, Medlock. Unless we bring in somebody, as I hope we do, or Everyday Eddie somehow makes it back. If we could bring in one really good arm and we get progress from one of Salmon, McBeth, or Majewski, this group could be pretty good.

BearcatShane
07-25-2007, 12:24 AM
I think the Reds are trying to showcase Saarloos and Stanton for teams looking to trade.

roby
07-25-2007, 12:35 AM
I think the Reds are trying to showcase Saarloos and Stanton for teams looking to trade.

Problem is, those two are not co-operating at all!

uoduck1017
07-25-2007, 01:33 AM
I share the weariness in watching the same old failures over and over. I am feeling a little better about the bullpen, though, particularly for next year. I hope we keep Weathers, because I just can't see trading the best reliever we have when the bullpen is as weak as it is. To me, he's the MVP of this team. Next year I see this as a start: Weathers, Bray, Coutlangus, Gosling, Belisle, Burton, and one other of Stanton, Salmon, McBeth, Majewski, Medlock. Unless we bring in somebody, as I hope we do, or Everyday Eddie somehow makes it back. If we could bring in one really good arm and we get progress from one of Salmon, McBeth, or Majewski, this group could be pretty good.

I believe Aaron Harang is the team MVP but that is a different subject. Weathers has been great this year but I honestly believe we should try to trade him. He is getting up there in age and I don't think he can duplicate his numbers from this year. However, if they kept him, I would not be dissappointed.

AmarilloRed
07-25-2007, 02:07 AM
I believe Ramirez will be rebuilding his arm strength after Narron nearly destroyed his arm last year. I would not expect to see him again until next year. I fully support the rest of your post. I would also like to see what a healthy Majewski can do, although I am probably an extreme minority.

HokieRed
07-25-2007, 09:49 AM
My bad, have to agree, Harang is definitely the MVP.

He can rake
07-25-2007, 05:03 PM
I was optimistic when the Saarloos deal was made, especially when I heard that Hatteburg said he had crazy movement on his pitches. Unfortunately he only has movement when he keeps the ball below the waist, and he hasn't shown the ability to do that. I'm not advocating dumping him, instead I say we should have left him at AAA long enough to work on his location. If after extended time there things were the same, then it would have been time to cut ties with him...

Coffey is an intriguing case, he's got the stuff, but not he confidence anymore. Last year he was challenging batters and succeeding. This year, he's blowing leads like crazy. I haven't totally soured on him, but I find it hard to stand behind a guy when he is giving up so many line drives... on second thought, maybe I would want to be behind him for shelter...

Stanton was a dumb signing from the beginning. He has shown spurts of being effective, but he just doesn't have it anymore. He's basically a bullpen coach for any of the young guys who want to listen to him. Unless he wants to be a coach, let him go...

lo ryder
08-04-2007, 10:59 PM
This is well past the point or absurdity. The bp sucks and the front office refuses to address it. Never thought i would say this, but my Loyalty is beginning to waiver with this shoddy representation.

Toto, take me to 75 and 76.

Doro
08-04-2007, 11:10 PM
How would you go about addressing it?

Chi-Town Red
08-04-2007, 11:30 PM
they tried everyone, and then some

UPRedsFan
08-04-2007, 11:45 PM
It has a chance to be decent next year with Guardado and Bray back.

That would give them a combination of Guardado, Bray and Coutlangus from the left side. Weathers and Burton from the right. I like Burton's rapid progress this season. It's not hard to imagine a decent bullpen in 08 with Salmon or McBeth coming into their potential. I'd like to see Salmon back up now and give him Coffey's innings to get some experience for next year.

BEETTLEBUG
08-04-2007, 11:48 PM
I agree give someone Coffey's innings

texasdave
08-04-2007, 11:53 PM
Is there any particular reason why Bill Bray hasn't been brought up yet? He seems to be pitching well for the Bats. And the big club could definitely use some help.

If absolutely everything went right the 2008 bullpen could be respectable. Weathers, Burton, Coffey and Ramirez from the right side; coupled with Bray, Coutlangus and Guardado from the left side. But how often does that happen?

jmac
08-04-2007, 11:55 PM
It has a chance to be decent next year with Guardado and Bray back.

That would give them a combination of Guardado, Bray and Coutlangus from the left side. Weathers and Burton from the right. I like Burton's rapid progress this season.

I am not sure about the future of EG but I agree on other parts.
In fact I would like to see Bray here now and I agree totally about Burton.

captainmorgan07
08-04-2007, 11:58 PM
i am very encouraged by burton. he has been very good his last few outings.

jmac
08-05-2007, 12:03 AM
I have a question regarding the BP.
First let me say...Todd Coffey gets credit for a hold which is ridiculous.
Then Gosling gets a "blown save" in the early part of game.
When you hear it quoted , this team or that team has that many blown saves , are they including like instances like tonight ?
I mean to count a 6th inning run should seem more like a "blown hold" but I am sure they dont want to add a statistic.

AmarilloRed
08-05-2007, 03:32 AM
It has a chance to be decent next year with Guardado and Bray back.

That would give them a combination of Guardado, Bray and Coutlangus from the left side. Weathers and Burton from the right. I like Burton's rapid progress this season. It's not hard to imagine a decent bullpen in 08 with Salmon or McBeth coming into their potential. I'd like to see Salmon back up now and give him Coffey's innings to get some experience for next year.

You left out Majewski. I may be the only Majewski supporter on Redzone. I think he could be a good reliever if he ever gets healthy.

AdamDunn
08-05-2007, 04:29 AM
You left out Majewski. I may be the only Majewski supporter on Redzone. I think he could be a good reliever if he ever gets healthy.

You're not the only one... but healthy is a BIG if.

Orenda
08-05-2007, 10:55 AM
Are you referring to his mental health? The guy has been back for a while now. Have I missed something with him? I do remember him saying something about shoving things in uncomfortable places though.

UPRedsFan
08-05-2007, 04:02 PM
I'm counting him out because he is already healthy. He's just not effective.

AmarilloRed
08-05-2007, 04:20 PM
Here are his stats this year in AAA:1-1 4.03 era, 37 games, 4 sv, 33 hits, 17 runs, 17 er, 2hr, 15 bb, 30 strikeouts and a .243 batting average. It is not a overpowering line by any means, but it should be good enough to warrant a tryout in spring training. Especially with the bullpen we have. If he can stay healthy like he is now, I believe he will help the Reds in the future. His stats on the Reds this year are horrific, but I believe he was injured then. For the sake of fairness I will reveal them: 0-1, 15.88 era, 10 games, 5 2/3 innings, 16 hits, 10 runs, 10 er, 1 hr, 1 bb, 3 strikeouts, and a .516 BA allwed. Ouch! I really hope he was injured when he put those numbers up.

Vada Pinson Fan
08-05-2007, 07:26 PM
Anyone else sick of seeing Saarlos, Coffey, and Stanton. I honestly believe bad things are going to happen when I see them come into the game. Can McBeth, Salmon, and Dumatrait do any worse?

I feel the same way james. Saarloos hasn't helped much here. Coffey is just plain horrible and the same goes for Stanton. Coffey couldn't spot his fastball if his job depended on it. And for whatever reason, why doesn't Coffey's job depend on him pitching better and holding a lead/not letting a deficit get worse? When Todd Coffey was sent to Louisville, he should have been left there... for the year!

Why is Pete Mackanin following in Narron's shoes and bringing in Coffey & Stanton in crucial situations? I know some out there are reading this and wondering "well, who else does Pete use when the rest of the bullpen is tired or whatever?" My answer is this: with the year-long predictable lousy results of Coffey and Stanton let's give the manager two warm bodies from AAA or AA and give those relief replacements on the job training during this dismal year for the team. As I said in an earlier post today: find out exactly what you have in the minors. Ready the team for 2008..... now!

Orenda
08-05-2007, 07:51 PM
why doesn't Coffey's job depend on him pitching better and holding a lead/not letting a deficit get worse?


Great question. To me it seems management has decided to allow Coffey to attempt to pitch through his woes this season. Yet they don't have Bray, Salmon, and McBeth on the roster taking their lumps for next season. Some guys due to their past success and contracts, are given more opportunities to succeed, see Stanton, Coffey, Majewski. It would be tough being one of the younger guys and knowing your always the odd-man out in an options game. They're always one Coffey like outing from being back in Louisville. At least remove Santos and replace him with one of the younger guys

jimbo
08-05-2007, 08:53 PM
It would be tough being one of the younger guys and knowing your always the odd-man out in an options game.

Welcome to major league baseball. It might be a shocker to some, but the "options game" is not something that just happens in Cincinnati. It's a game that is played in every major league organization.

If a young player is fragile enough to where it's too tough for him to deal with how mlb works when it comes to the options game, then he's probably never going to make it. If he's good enough, his chance will eventually come.

Orenda
08-05-2007, 09:22 PM
Welcome to major league baseball. It might be a shocker to some, but the "options game" is not something that just happens in Cincinnati. It's a game that is played in every major league organization.

If a young player is fragile enough to where it's too tough for him to deal with how mlb works when it comes to the options game, then he's probably never going to make it. If he's good enough, his chance will eventually come.

I dont agree with giving Todd Coffey, Victor Santos and Mike Stanton repeated chances with bad results, while you could be giving younger arms a real look. Do you think Brad Salmon would be as bad as Todd Coffey is right now? Coffey is off, so why not send him down and give him an extended period to get right in Louisville. I relize how teams around baseball option down younger players, but I don't get why this team continues to do so in their current state. So you think Coffey and Stanton have earned the right to be in the bullpen over some others?

jimbo
08-05-2007, 10:24 PM
So you think Coffey and Stanton have earned the right to be in the bullpen over some others?

I never said that. But it's a lot easier for us to sit here behind a keyboard and suggest to an owner to continue eating contracts like Stanton's.

Coffey will probably be sent down before Tuesday and I would expect Salmon back up. Salmon's numbers were decent when he was up, but I was not impressed with his stuff and I get the impression that the people in charge in the organization aren't either. I can turn the same argument around and suggest why not let Coffey stay up here and work through his problems here? The season is lost anyways.

AmarilloRed
08-06-2007, 01:42 AM
I agree that Coffey needs to be at Louisville a while. He has dug himself a huge hole in Cincinnati, and he needs to prove himself at Louisville before we see him in Cincinnati again. He needs to show he can dominate at AAA. He also needs to learn to give up less than 1 hit in a inning. He may never see the majors again if he doesn't show a lot of improvement.

jimbo
08-06-2007, 01:51 AM
He needs to show he can dominate at AAA.

He pretty much did that earlier in the season when he was sent down. During that time in Louisville, Coffey put up a 0.00 ERA, a 0.63 WHIP, and 10 Ks in 8 innings pitched.