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savafan
07-27-2007, 12:35 PM
http://www.athensnews.com/issue/article.php3?story_id=28865

By Mark Chalifoux
Athens NEWS Sports Columnist

The Cincinnati Reds insult their fans by making them pay for a poor product. They insult their fans by not doing anything to make their team better. They insult their fans by refusing to trade Adam Dunn for anything less than a Cy Young winner (from this century). Before, some of that could have been blamed on incompetence and poor management. After I attended the Reds game last Tuesday, one thing is now clear. The Reds have changed their stance. Instead of merely doing nothing for the fans, the Reds have decided to actively work against them.

Cincinnati mailed in its season a long time ago. It was more than a month back when I wrote that all the Reds had left to offer fans was the ballpark experience. It's not ideal, it's not fair to season ticket holders and die-hard fans, but that's the way things go sometimes. It's something a lot of teams go through; every now and then the pieces of the puzzle just don't have a chance of coming together.

That was painfully clear early in the season, but the Reds still had the ballpark experience. Not much, but it was something. Now they are trying to destroy that by putting Mike Stanton into games.

Stanton wasn't always a bad pitcher. He's got a career ERA under 4; his problem (I assume) is that he's getting old (he turned 40 in June). He's lost his touch. And there's absolutely no reason for the Reds to continue sending him out to the mound. The season may be over, but it's not completely lost. The team could be using this time to try out new pitchers. They could give some of the young arms a chance to see what they can do at the Major League level and move a couple of the starters to the bullpen. If they want to find out what players have Major-League-caliber stuff, now is the time to test them out. The only logical reason the Reds keep sending Stanton to the mound is because they hate their fans.

It may seem like I'm unfairly piling on Stanton. After all, he's just one of the many poor pitchers prized by the Reds. The problem with Stanton, though, is that time absolutely stands still when he enters the game. His 34-pitch top-of-the-ninth inning Tuesday was excruciating to watch live. He takes so much time between pitches that sitting in the ballpark watching him actually becomes an unpleasant experience.

I've seen a lot of sporting events during my time as a fan, but nothing was as dreadful as that half-inning. I'd much rather watch the Bobcats on the football field turning the ball over seven times during a rout than watch another Mike Stanton pitching performance.

Live baseball is fairly boring as it is. More than any other major sport, it relies as much on the atmosphere at the ballpark as on the action on the field. That makes what Stanton does even more impressive. It's easy to get bored at an NBA game when the action falls apart or when the teams stop caring because there's nothing else going on. At a baseball game, where a fan derives a fair amount of entertainment from things not happening on the field, it's nearly impossible for the action to get so boring that the experience actually becomes unpleasant.

The Reds may have other reasons they let Stanton pitch (blackmail?), but if they cared at all for the fans, they would throw them a bone during his appearances. If they are forced to send Stanton to the mound, the team could at least make hot dogs half-price during his appearance or have another mascot race on the Jumbo-tron to keep fans entertained. The team needs to show it still cares about the fans.

That is, unless my theory is right -- that maybe the Reds really do hate their fans. If that's the case, Mike Stanton will be pitching well into his 50s.

HotCorner
07-27-2007, 12:38 PM
Someone got paid to write this? :help:

This guy sure doesn't like Mike Stanton. The article should be titled - "Mike Stanton is Pure Evil" :lol:

RedLegSuperStar
07-27-2007, 12:38 PM
Wait do the Reds hate their fans or do they just love Mike Stanton?

savafan
07-27-2007, 12:42 PM
I don't know, every time I see Stanton come into a ballgame, I take it as a personal affront against myself...

KronoRed
07-27-2007, 12:43 PM
The Reds hate the fans because they won't dump one of their best players (Dunn) for peanuts? :dunno:

Danny Serafini
07-27-2007, 12:45 PM
That article was so lame it's not even worth commenting on.

savafan
07-27-2007, 12:46 PM
That article was so lame it's not even worth commenting on.

Um...you just did. :p:

pedro
07-27-2007, 12:48 PM
That article is an embarrassment to Bobcats everywhere.

BCubb2003
07-27-2007, 12:56 PM
The Athens News is the alt-weekly in Athens, for what it's worth.

Roy Tucker
07-27-2007, 01:02 PM
Actually, as a baseball fan, I found that 34 pitch inning by Stanton to be interesting. On the surface it was excruciating but underneath there was a lot going on.

It was a display of a pitcher trying to get by on pure guile and no stuff. Stanton trying to get Braun out was the proverbial old grizzled vet with nothing left trying to get out the young stud hitter. That was also the inning where Fielder broke his bat and flared a luck RBI hit to LF after battling Stanton.

Or maybe I was imagining all this and it was just boring.

nate
07-27-2007, 01:07 PM
Actually, as a baseball fan, I found that 34 pitch inning by Stanton to be interesting. On the surface it was excruciating but underneath there was a lot going on.

It was a display of a pitcher trying to get by on pure guile and no stuff. Stanton trying to get Braun out was the proverbial old grizzled vet with nothing left trying to get out the young stud hitter. That was also the inning where Fielder broke his bat and flared a luck RBI hit to LF after battling Stanton.

Or maybe I was imagining all this and it was just boring.

Totally agreed. If you see it in the boxscore you think "Mike F_____ Stanton did it again" but if you watched it, he was really battling and, I felt, winning. The hits he gave up weren't screamers, they just happened to fall in.

macro
07-27-2007, 01:13 PM
Live baseball is fairly boring as it is.

I stopped reading right after that sentence.

pedro
07-27-2007, 01:16 PM
I'd much rather watch the Bobcats on the football field

This is the one that got me.

Chip R
07-27-2007, 01:16 PM
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. He's got the Stanton part right but that's pretty much it.

RFS62
07-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Actually, as a baseball fan, I found that 34 pitch inning by Stanton to be interesting. On the surface it was excruciating but underneath there was a lot going on.

It was a display of a pitcher trying to get by on pure guile and no stuff. Stanton trying to get Braun out was the proverbial old grizzled vet with nothing left trying to get out the young stud hitter. That was also the inning where Fielder broke his bat and flared a luck RBI hit to LF after battling Stanton.

Or maybe I was imagining all this and it was just boring.



You weren't imagining. You nailed it.

It's only boring to people who really don't understand baseball. Nice that many of them have jobs writing about it.

BCubb2003
07-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Actually, as a baseball fan, I found that 34 pitch inning by Stanton to be interesting. On the surface it was excruciating but underneath there was a lot going on.

It was a display of a pitcher trying to get by on pure guile and no stuff. Stanton trying to get Braun out was the proverbial old grizzled vet with nothing left trying to get out the young stud hitter. That was also the inning where Fielder broke his bat and flared a luck RBI hit to LF after battling Stanton.

Or maybe I was imagining all this and it was just boring.

Of course, when a batter has a many-pitch at-bat, we consider that a good thing, so a pitcher having a many-pitch at-bat should be a bad thing.

I agree that Stanton was battling, to his credit, but we need some guys who can come in and get a big strikeout when needed.

redsmetz
07-27-2007, 01:19 PM
The Athens News is the alt-weekly in Athens, for what it's worth.

So is City Beat here in Cincinnati. Bill Peterson does a decent job examining the sports scene.

RedsManRick
07-27-2007, 01:20 PM
I love the article. "Mike Stanton" was a euphemism, and apt one. Maybe the tempo point was a bit overkill. I don't agree that we should employ players based on some aesthetic quality rather than an actual baseball decision. However, it was an indication that the Reds are so focused on increasing their chances of maybe eeking out a meaningless victory, by running out a "proven veteran" pitcher, that they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Not only is it likely the wrong choice in the short term, as a baseball decision geared around winning a specific game, but it shows very little vision. Let's figure out if Todd Coffey really is a choker by giving him a sample size of more than 4 important chances. Let's see what Jared Burton can do. Let's dump Stanton entirely and give Dumatrait some ML experience.

Nearly every decision I see tells me that the Reds either completely miss the big picture or are too scared that fans wouldn't understand a big picture approach. It's sad and I feel genuinely insulted as a fan. I feel like management, both in the front office and on the field, is making decisions to avoid being blamed for failure rather than creating a plan for success.

vaticanplum
07-27-2007, 01:25 PM
They insult their fans by refusing to trade Adam Dunn for anything less than a Cy Young winner (from this century).

And I'd like to see how much love this guy'd be feeling from the Reds if they did trade him for anything less.

Danged if you do...

Red Leader
07-27-2007, 01:26 PM
I agree that Stanton was battling, to his credit, but we need some guys who can come in and get a big strikeout when needed.

Sure, that may be what the Reds need, can't deny that, but I believe Roy's comments were that of a fan of the game of baseball in general. If you love the game, you find stuff within each game to enjoy whether your team is winning or losing.

BCubb2003
07-27-2007, 01:26 PM
I love the article. "Mike Stanton" was a euphemism, and apt one. The Reds are so focused on increasing their chances of maybe eeking out a meaningless victory by running out a "proven veteran" pitcher, that they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Not only is it likely the wrong choice in the short term, as a baseball decision geared around winning a specific game, but it shows very little vision. Let's figure out if Todd Coffey really is a choker by giving him a sample size of more than 4 important chances. Let's see what Jared Burton can do. Let's dump Stanton entirely and give Dumatrait some ML experience.

Nearly every decision I see tells me that the Reds either completely miss the big picture or are too scared that fans wouldn't understand a big picture approach. It's sad and I feel genuinely insulted as a fan.

I have a theory about this, but it's kind of complicated, and later when I have the time I'll put it into words. The short version is that it's too much to expect for the Reds to go Tampa Bay on us when Castellini is trying to instill a winning attitude.

RedsManRick
07-27-2007, 01:31 PM
I have a theory about this, but it's kind of complicated, and later when I have the time I'll put it into words. The short version is that it's too much to expect for the Reds to go Tampa Bay on us when Castellini is trying to instill a winning attitude.

I agree Bcubb. I think ironically Castellini is undermining his own ambition due to a failure of understanding the path to success and a incorrect judgement of the fanbase's ability to cope with a true, well designed, plan. The Tigers went through a nearly complete rebuild in under 5 years. The Brewers are in year 5 of a 7 year plan. Yes, 2003 may have sucked in Detroit, but I'm guessing the fanbase who they lost has come back 5 fold.

I would much much much rather lose 120 games for the next three years and win a World Series in 2012 than I would win somewhere between 75 and 85 games in perpetuity under the guise of "putting a winner on the field every year". Give me a plan. Explain to me why it will work and then go execute the thing. "Winning right now" and being "impatient" is not only not a plan, but it's a point of view that is actually self-defeating.

Castellini wants to have his cake and eat it too. It just doesn't work like that unless you're George Steinbrenner and can afford to buy a second cake. He's going to keep taking small bite after small bite and end up with both an empty plate and an empty stomach.

GAC
07-27-2007, 01:32 PM
What's interesting is that this guy is actually a sports columnist, yet made no mention of Castro.

Maybe someone should nominate him for ORG membership so he can get educated. ;)

smith288
07-27-2007, 01:45 PM
Ugh, this read as a blog post from an high school drop out. Just some nobody's rambling thoughts.

redsmetz
07-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Just out of curiousity, I took a little bit of time and looked at the Tigers' transactions since 2003. They've done a lot right, but they picked up a lot of dreck too over that time, trying to find the right mix. I can't say at this point that the Reds aren't on the same path. Neither the Tigers nor the Brewers I think were tearing it up left and right. They improved the club over a period of time, not overnight. Take a look at the transactions on baseball-reference.com - it's interesting.

Danny Serafini
07-27-2007, 01:48 PM
Um...you just did. :p:

Yeah I know, I was hoping that point would slip through unnoticed. :laugh:

Roy Tucker
07-27-2007, 01:50 PM
Of course, when a batter has a many-pitch at-bat, we consider that a good thing, so a pitcher having a many-pitch at-bat should be a bad thing.

I agree that Stanton was battling, to his credit, but we need some guys who can come in and get a big strikeout when needed.

Oh yeah, as a Reds fan I was yelling at Stanton just to strike the bum out.

But as a dispassionate fan (an oxymoron, I suppose), it was interesting to see Stanton's role of vet with nothing left hanging on by his fingernails. Brewer batters weren't getting anything good to hit yet not nasty enough to miss. Hence, foul balls out the ying-yang.

The stretch of 2000-2007 has left me becoming more of a dispassionate observer of the game rather than a rabid Reds fan. Or maybe I'm just becoming an old fart. Get off my lawn.

westofyou
07-27-2007, 01:54 PM
The stretch of 2000-2007 has left me becoming more of a dispassionate observer of the game rather than a rabid Reds fan. Or maybe I'm just becoming an old fart. Get off my lawn.

Or you're realizing that there is more to the meal than the meat on the plate.

pedro
07-27-2007, 01:55 PM
Or you're realizing that there is more to the meal than the meat on the plate.

and that Wayne Krivsky is Seitan ;)

Jpup
07-27-2007, 01:56 PM
i can't take anyone serious who says that baseball is boring. I never get tired of watching baseball, maybe I am just boring.

RedsManRick
07-27-2007, 02:23 PM
Redsmetz, it's funny you mention that because I did just that the other day myself. What struck me is that you're right, they both did some real stupid things along the way. However, what also struck me is that there is one thing you HAVE to do or you have no chance. That's player development. Yes, good trades help. So do smart FA signings. But if you don't develop a core of cheap talent in house, you're screwed. Period. End of story. Get that right first, then focus on the "grown-up" talent.

dougdirt
07-27-2007, 02:30 PM
Redsmetz, it's funny you mention that because I did just that the other day myself. What struck me is that you're right, they both did some real stupid things along the way. However, what also struck me is that there is one thing you HAVE to do or you have no chance. That's player development. Yes, good trades help. So do smart FA signings. But if you don't develop a core of cheap talent in house, you're screwed. Period. End of story. Get that right first, then focus on the "grown-up" talent.

Fortunately the Reds do have quite a nice chunk of actual talent heading its way to Cincinnati and soon between the likes of Bailey, Bruce, Votto and Cueto.

dabvu2498
07-27-2007, 02:33 PM
Tiger pitchers age 35+ since 2003:
Steve Sparks
Alan Levine
Troy Percival
Kenny Rogers
Todd Jones
Jose Mesa

Reds pitchers age 35+ since 2006:
Hammond
R. White
Weathers
Stanton
Mercker
Cormier
Michalak
Guardado

redsmetz
07-27-2007, 02:58 PM
Redsmetz, it's funny you mention that because I did just that the other day myself. What struck me is that you're right, they both did some real stupid things along the way. However, what also struck me is that there is one thing you HAVE to do or you have no chance. That's player development. Yes, good trades help. So do smart FA signings. But if you don't develop a core of cheap talent in house, you're screwed. Period. End of story. Get that right first, then focus on the "grown-up" talent.

The move that jumped out at me (and it bolsters your point) was drafting and signing (and developing) Verlander. Obviously that wasn't the only move. They did make some nice trades that paid off, some free agent signings, but it helps to develop your own. We haven't been real good at that until recently.

Hap
07-27-2007, 03:22 PM
The Athens News is the alt-weekly in Athens, for what it's worth.

I lived in Athens for six years and I don't recall the A-Nus ever having much of a sports page.

pedro
07-27-2007, 03:24 PM
I lived in Athens for six years and I don't recall the A-Nus ever having much of a sports page.

me too and me neither.

RFS62
07-27-2007, 03:36 PM
Oh yeah, as a Reds fan I was yelling at Stanton just to strike the bum out.

But as a dispassionate fan (an oxymoron, I suppose), it was interesting to see Stanton's role of vet with nothing left hanging on by his fingernails. Brewer batters weren't getting anything good to hit yet not nasty enough to miss. Hence, foul balls out the ying-yang.

The stretch of 2000-2007 has left me becoming more of a dispassionate observer of the game rather than a rabid Reds fan. Or maybe I'm just becoming an old fart. Get off my lawn.


Or you're realizing that there is more to the meal than the meat on the plate.



It's the difference between the casual fan and the student of the inner game.

Sadly, the casual fans far outnumber the true affectionados.

So much goes on between each pitch that is interesting. And the players themselves and their trials and trevails add to the theater.

There's a smorgasbord of strategy, ballet, art, science, gymnastics and human drama in every single game.

Yep, boring. Kill the ump.

MississippiRed
07-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Actually, as a baseball fan, I found that 34 pitch inning by Stanton to be interesting. On the surface it was excruciating but underneath there was a lot going on.

It was a display of a pitcher trying to get by on pure guile and no stuff. Stanton trying to get Braun out was the proverbial old grizzled vet with nothing left trying to get out the young stud hitter. That was also the inning where Fielder broke his bat and flared a luck RBI hit to LF after battling Stanton.

Or maybe I was imagining all this and it was just boring.

Pretty much the exact thing I was thinking while watching it. Stanton appeared to have his good stuff, it just wasn't quite good enough to get past Braun. He did throw everything but the kitchen sink up there. Great piece of baseball viewing, I thought.

Hoosier Red
07-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Tiger pitchers age 35+ since 2003:
Steve Sparks
Alan Levine
Troy Percival
Kenny Rogers
Todd Jones
Jose Mesa

Reds pitchers age 35+ since 2006:
Hammond
R. White
Weathers
Stanton
Mercker
Cormier
Michalak
Guardado

I think the point is that it doesn't matter without the player development.
There's really no difference between 35 year old dreck and 31 year old dreck. As long as you're not signing it to a long term contract the odds are about the same.
The Tigers got Rogers, the Reds got Weathers.

Big Klu
07-29-2007, 02:37 AM
I lived in Athens for six years and I don't recall the A-Nus ever having much of a sports page.


me too and me neither.

I was a student at OU from 1989 to 1994, and I don't remember the A-News having much in sports, either.

Now if you're looking for a Marxist editorial page, then you've found the right rag.

MartyFan
07-29-2007, 03:18 AM
Hopefully the guy isn't an alum of OU...OU used to have one of the really good schools for journalism..but this guy "retro-blows"

GAC
07-29-2007, 07:30 AM
i can't take anyone serious who says that baseball is boring. I never get tired of watching baseball, maybe I am just boring.

That's what I tell my wife anyway. :evil:

RedsBaron
07-29-2007, 08:17 AM
The Athens News insults its readers by making them read a poor product. The Athens News insults its readers by not doing anything to make its paper better. The Athens News insults its readers by paying Mark Chalifoux to be its sports columnist and write columns not worthy of a high school newspaper. Before, some of this could have been blamed on incompetence and poor management. After I read Chalifoux's latest column, in which he criticized the Reds for not dumping their leading run producer over the last four seasons, one thing is now clear. The Athens News has changed its stance. Instead of doing nothing for its readers, the Athens News has decided to actively work against them.
The Athens News started mailing it in a long time ago, but by putting Mark Chalifoux into the paper it is obvious that the paper is trying to destroy the experience of reading the newspaper.
Maybe Chalifoux once knew how to write. Maybe he is getting old. He's lost his touch. And there's absolutely no reason for the Athens News to continue sending him out to its readers. The paper could use this time to try out new writers. The only logical reason the Athens News keeps printing Chalifoux's columns is because the paper hates its readers.
Reading a newspaper is fairly boring as it is. More than most activities, it relies upon creating an atmosphere. Chalifoux's columns are so bad, they destroy the atmosphere, contribute to global warming, and make reading the paper actually unpleasant.
The Athens News needs to show it still cares about its readers by dumping Chalifoux as a columnist. That is, unless my theory is right--that maybe the Athens News really does hate its readers. If that's the case, Mark Chalifoux will be featured in the Athens News for another fifty years.

GAC
07-29-2007, 08:43 AM
The Athens News insults its readers by making them read a poor product. The Athens News insults its readers by not doing anything to make its paper better. The Athens News insults its readers by paying Mark Chalifoux to be its sports columnist and write columns not worthy of a high school newspaper. Before, some of this could have been blamed on incompetence and poor management. After I read Chalifoux's latest column, in which he criticized the Reds for not dumping their leading run producer over the last four seasons, one thing is now clear. The Athens News has changed its stance. Instead of doing nothing for its readers, the Athens News has decided to actively work against them.
The Athens News started mailing it in a long time ago, but by putting Mark Chalifoux into the paper it is obvious that the paper is trying to destroy the experience of reading the newspaper.
Maybe Chalifoux once knew how to write. Maybe he is getting old. He's lost his touch. And there's absolutely no reason for the Athens News to continue sending him out to its readers. The paper could use this time to try out new writers. The only logical reason the Athens News keeps printing Chalifoux's columns is because the paper hates its readers.
Reading a newspaper is fairly boring as it is. More than most activities, it relies upon creating an atmosphere. Chalifoux's columns are so bad, they destroy the atmosphere, contribute to global warming, and make reading the paper actually unpleasant.
The Athens News needs to show it still cares about its readers by dumping Chalifoux as a columnist. That is, unless my theory is right--that maybe the Athens News really does hate its readers. If that's the case, Mark Chalifoux will be featured in the Athens News for another fifty years.

I wish we could still give out rep points! Excellent! I really think you should email him this. :laugh:

ddrone
07-29-2007, 08:53 AM
While the A news is a marxist,hippie lovin rag of a paper,from the photo I would have to assume he is just a kid.
However,you would think that even a High schooler would have written a better article.And no,the A news never has or had a real sports section.