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TOBTTReds
07-27-2007, 02:03 PM
Yesterday during the game (2nd inning), Marty sounded 100% sure that the Reds can't afford to pick up Dunn's option. When he was discussing trades with John Fay, Marty said (exact words):


"Dont you think this team has to move somebody by August 1st, like players that won't be back next year....Adam Dunn's not gonna be back here next year, lets face facts, its a 13 million dollar option. I cant imagine this team is going to take the risk of picking up his option and then try to trade him."

He said this so emphatically that he knew it was the case.

Personally, I was shocked when I heard this. To me, I don't think there is a chance in the world that the Reds won't pick it up if he isn't traded.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE REDS WILL DO? Not what do you want them to do, or what you think they should do. What will they do?

I just want to see who is crazy here, me or Marty.



****Disclaimer, this is NOT a Marty bashing thread, or an Adam Dunn thread. This IS a "Will the Reds pick up his option?"

TOBTTReds
07-27-2007, 02:05 PM
I must add that neither Fay or Marty realized that Dunn cannot be traded until June 15, iirc, if the option is picked up.

From mlb4u.com:


the deal includes a Team Option for 2008 worth 13M or a 500K buyout- + the option is eliminated if he is traded- + he receives a 500K assignment bonus if traded- + the value of the option could rise to 16M with award-based escalators- + if the option is exercised, he receives a complete a no-trade clause until June 15, 2008 (after that date he can select 19 teams to which he cannot be traded to w/out his consent)

I think I accidentally made the results hidden, if they can somehow not be hidden, someone take care of that. Thanks.

PuffyPig
07-27-2007, 02:06 PM
I'd say that there is zero chance it won't be picked up.

KronoRed
07-27-2007, 02:09 PM
They would be insane to turn it down.

I think marty is in for a big shock, unless Wayne decides to just dump Dunn for nothing he'll still be here manning LF next year

dougdirt
07-27-2007, 02:10 PM
Can I answer this after the trading deadline passes?

nate
07-27-2007, 02:10 PM
I just don't understand why, if he's not traded, it wouldn't be picked up. To get draft picks, they'd have to offer arbitration. If they lose arbitration, they might find out that $13mm is a "deal".

Chip R
07-27-2007, 02:11 PM
Wishful thinking and lobbying on Marty's part.

dougdirt
07-27-2007, 02:13 PM
Oh yeah, Marty's comments yesterday made me laugh. I just threw it in the ever growing pile of 'Things Marty says that he has no freakin clue what he is talking about'.

redsmetz
07-27-2007, 02:13 PM
They would be insane to turn it down.

I think marty is in for a big shock, unless Wayne decides to just dump Dunn for nothing he'll still be here manning LF next year

Maybe the Reds decide to dump Marty? Might he be chomping at the bit to be rid of his favorite whipping boy?

I think they'll pick up Dunn's option - the price tag doesn't phase me (of course, it's not MY money!).

Matt700wlw
07-27-2007, 02:13 PM
I voted "no", but honestly, I'm not getting a good read on this Dunn situation anymore. Either way would not shock me

CTA513
07-27-2007, 02:15 PM
If hes not traded, then yes they will pick up his option.

Ltlabner
07-27-2007, 02:15 PM
Oh yeah, Marty's comments yesterday made me laugh. I just threw it in the ever growing pile of 'Things Marty says that he has no freakin clue what he is talking about'.

I'm a big Marty fan, but yea, his comments yesterday were goofy. Later in the game Marty said something to Thom to the effect of, "Here's your man, Dunn".

But to the point of the thread...I think they pick up the option. It appears they are not getting the haul of players in return they had hoped. I think they pick up the option, enjoy the production and then either see if they can work out another extension with him, work on trading him next year.

cumberlandreds
07-27-2007, 02:17 PM
I voted yes. I think they have set the bar very high for a trade and no one is going to part with what the Reds are asking. $13 million won't be a huge increase when you consider they will be out from under Milton's contract. It's basically a wash.

M2
07-27-2007, 02:20 PM
The chances of the Reds not picking up that option are the same as you throwing a rock and missing the Earth.

Patrick Bateman
07-27-2007, 02:21 PM
He's either being traded or the option is being picked up. If the Reds really didn't want him, then he would be traded for prospects. If he is a Red passed the deadline, then you can bet your life the Reds are prepared to pay him some money.

jojo
07-27-2007, 02:22 PM
I think the Dunn saga ends with the Reds offering him arbitration, Dunn turning them down and the Reds collecting comp picks. I tend to think that if they can't trade him, they'll pick up the option and do the arb dance next season barring a mid season trade. This organisation doesn't strike me as big risk takers and frankly, letting Dunn walk for no immediate return is a bigger risk than picking up his option and at least knowing roughly what you'll get out of left field next season.

Anyway, i'm against a long term deal for Dunn but his '08 isn't the reason. The Reds SHOULD pick up Dunn's option given the current state they're in....

lollipopcurve
07-27-2007, 02:25 PM
Like AK said, he'll either be traded or the option will be exercised (and Griffey will be traded).

osuceltic
07-27-2007, 02:56 PM
(after that date he can select 19 teams to which he cannot be traded to w/out his consent)
That part was news to me and changes my position on this. I figured if they couldn't get anything done before the deadline, they'd pick up the option and go through the same exercise next year at this time. Then, if they couldn't deal him, they'd just let him walk.

But this limited no-trade clause is a problem. They'd have even less leverage than they have now. They'd get nothing for him at next year's deadline. And I'm convinced they have absolutely no interest in signing him to any kind of extension.

Knowing all this, I think they should put on the full-court press to get something done now. Find the best offer out there, pull the trigger and get started on remaking this team.

flyer85
07-27-2007, 03:15 PM
Not trading him and declining the option ... is not an option. :D

BTW, I still believe if Dunn is going to be traded he will end up in Arizona.

osuceltic
07-31-2007, 04:44 PM
I'm not looking for "should Dunn be here next season" arguments. The question is WILL he be here? I think it's very much open to debate. If they're planning to try to make any kind of radical improvement to the pitching staff, do they decline Dunn's option and put that money toward pitching?

What do you think? This is the single biggest issue facing the front office after the season. Predictions?

BRM
07-31-2007, 04:45 PM
I guess they could decline the option and offer him arbitration. Dunn would likely decline, netting the Reds the draft picks. My guess is they pick up the option though.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 04:47 PM
If they let him walk, they look really stupid.

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 04:48 PM
Yep, see you here guys here next year for the annual Dunn Watch ;)

flyer85
07-31-2007, 04:48 PM
At this point the answer would seem to be "yes". If I were a betting man my guess is that WK will not get to make that decision.

Marc D
07-31-2007, 04:50 PM
If they let him walk, they look really stupid.


That hasn't seemed to stop them yet.

missionhockey21
07-31-2007, 04:57 PM
They wanted a king's ransom for Dunn because they hopefully know his value... so why let him walk for just a few mil more than he makes this season. He's a Red in 2008.

Eric_Davis
07-31-2007, 08:01 PM
I think they decline the option and accept the 2 high picks for the 2008 draft rather than sign him and then try to trade him hoping they could do better than those two picks. I think the last thing they would do is keep him for one more year. This just isn't a franchise that can afford to pay $13M for what Dunn offers them in return for that huge of a percentage of their 2008 budget.

It would be financial suicide to keep Dunn for 2008, and it would guarantee this club of finishing no better than .500 again. $13M can be spent a lot more wisely than on the talents of Adam Dunn.

TOBTTReds
07-31-2007, 08:06 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60833

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 08:07 PM
I think they decline the option and accept the 2 high picks for the 2008 draft rather than sign him and then try to trade him hoping they could do better than those two picks. I think the last thing they would do is keep him for one more year. This just isn't a franchise that can afford to pay $13M for what Dunn offers them in return for that huge of a percentage of their 2008 budget.

It would be financial suicide to keep Dunn for 2008, and it would guarantee this club of finishing no better than .500 again. $13M can be spent a lot more wisely than on the talents of Adam Dunn.

I don't like that thinking....if it's truely about winning, and they pick up the option, MAKE it work....ADD to the payroll if that's what it takes. Don't use the "he makes too much" money as an excuse for continued suckiness.

I love spending Billionaires' money for them :)

pedro
07-31-2007, 08:09 PM
I don't like that thinking....if it's truely about winning, and they pick up the option, MAKE it work....ADD to the payroll if that's what it takes. Don't use the "he makes too much" money as an excuse for continued suckiness.

I love spending Billionaires' money for them :)

your right though Matt. We've got no reason to believe the Reds are losing money so we've got no reason to expect that they should have to dump one of their better players just because he's due a raise.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2007, 08:22 PM
For Dunn's sake I almost hope he plays elsewhere next season. He deserves to play for a winner and I just don't see him playing on a winner in Cincy as long as the current regime stays here.

IslandRed
07-31-2007, 08:30 PM
I'm inclined to think we'll pick up the option. From all reports, we set a high price in trade talks and didn't budge. If we weren't intending to keep him I would have expected us to take the best offer on the table, presuming it looked better than draft picks.

M2
07-31-2007, 08:38 PM
Let's see, they didn't trade him and I'll quote myself for the rest "The chances of the Reds not picking up that option are the same as you throwing a rock and missing the Earth."

He's not going to clear waivers, in fact I suspect he won't make it past the Nats claiming spot.

So unless the team can work out a deal in the offseason (which I assume would involve signing a contract extension and then getting flipped), then Adam Dunn will be a member of the Cincinnati Reds for pretty much the next year and that's going to give agita to all the right people.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2007, 08:41 PM
MY guess Griffey dealt for minor leaguers in August sometime. And the Reds will then p/u Dunn's option in the offseason and get him to drop his trade protection to deal him to Bowden and be re-united with Kearnsy!

TOBTTReds
07-31-2007, 08:49 PM
MY guess Griffey dealt for minor leaguers in August sometime. And the Reds will then p/u Dunn's option in the offseason and get him to drop his trade protection to deal him to Bowden and be re-united with Kearnsy!

Don't think they will deal Griffey in August, he'll be approaching 600 strong enough to get fans in the seats.

Don't know if Dunn can drop that June 15th trade clause. The union might have something to do with that.

pedro
07-31-2007, 08:52 PM
Don't think they will deal Griffey in August, he'll be approaching 600 strong enough to get fans in the seats.

Don't know if Dunn can drop that June 15th trade clause. The union might have something to do with that.

the union doesn't usually object unless loss of money and/or service time is effected.

CTA513
07-31-2007, 10:02 PM
I think they decline the option and accept the 2 high picks for the 2008 draft rather than sign him and then try to trade him hoping they could do better than those two picks. I think the last thing they would do is keep him for one more year. This just isn't a franchise that can afford to pay $13M for what Dunn offers them in return for that huge of a percentage of their 2008 budget.

It would be financial suicide to keep Dunn for 2008, and it would guarantee this club of finishing no better than .500 again. $13M can be spent a lot more wisely than on the talents of Adam Dunn.

The Reds won't finish above .500 in 2008 even if Dunn is traded.

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 10:58 PM
If the Reds can't "afford" a player like Adam Dunn at 13 mill then they may as well head down to the international league, do we really want to be the Royals?

Cyclone792
07-31-2007, 11:32 PM
If the Reds can't "afford" a player like Adam Dunn at 13 mill then they may as well head down to the international league, do we really want to be the Royals?

Krono, my man, I know you posted this as a joke, but ..... can I say sure, I really do want to be the Royals? I mean, at least in one aspect, like the following ...

Royals Pythag Winning %

2005 .371
-----------------------
2006 1st Half .371
2006 2nd Half .407
2007 .478

The Royals have a decent collection of young players, and (gasp!) their pythag has dramatically improved in the last season. Dayton Moore really hasn't done that bad of a job with that club, and while everybody laughed at him with the Meche signing (and I wouldn't have done it myself), I have to give Moore credit because Meche has been solid this season.

While Krivsky and the Reds are going backwards in pythag, the Royals and Moore have been making positive leaps in pythag. So the Cincinnati Reds as we know it right now are actually in a current state arguably worse than the Royals.

vic715
07-31-2007, 11:42 PM
I think alot will have to do with who the GM is after this season. Could be that Cast handcuffed Kriv on a Dunn Trade. If Cast is considering Jocketty as the next GM then He will be the one making the decision on Dunn.

Blitz Dorsey
07-31-2007, 11:53 PM
Yes, we'll pick it up and probably trade him this offseason. Or maybe they'll keep him and try and deal him at the deadline if the Reds are out of it in '08.

The only way I could see Dunn staying would be if the Reds are in it next year. But since I think he'll be traded this offseason, it really doesn't matter. The key will be allowing Dunn's agent to negotiate with other teams so they can get a long-term contract with him. Then a team would be willing to give up more to get Dunn, obviously.

Cyclone792
08-01-2007, 12:00 AM
Yes, we'll pick it up and probably trade him this offseason. Or maybe they'll keep him and try and deal him at the deadline if the Reds are out of it in '08.

The only way I could see Dunn staying would be if the Reds are in it next year. But since I think he'll be traded this offseason, it really doesn't matter. The key will be allowing Dunn's agent to negotiate with other teams so they can get a long-term contract with him. Then a team would be willing to give up more to get Dunn, obviously.

The impression I get with his team option is if it's picked up, he has full no-trade protection until June 15th. That includes this offseason, that includes spring training, and that includes the regular season up to June 15th. If that's the case, then the Reds wouldn't be able to pick up his option and immediately trade him this offseason anyway as you're suggesting. In fact, the whole point of that clause in his contract is to protect himself from that very scenario.

If Dunn's option is picked up, I'm fairly certain he's a Red through June 15th unless he personally waives that no-trade clause.

harangatang
08-01-2007, 12:12 AM
Krono, my man, I know you posted this as a joke, but ..... can I say sure, I really do want to be the Royals? I mean, at least in one aspect, like the following ...

Royals Pythag Winning %

2005 .371
-----------------------
2006 1st Half .371
2006 2nd Half .407
2007 .478

The Royals have a decent collection of young players, and (gasp!) their pythag has dramatically improved in the last season. Dayton Moore really hasn't done that bad of a job with that club, and while everybody laughed at him with the Meche signing (and I wouldn't have done it myself), I have to give Moore credit because Meche has been solid this season.

While Krivsky and the Reds are going backwards in pythag, the Royals and Moore have been making positive leaps in pythag. So the Cincinnati Reds as we know it right now are actually in a current state arguably worse than the Royals.I was watching the ESPN Trade Deadline special and there was a comment that the Royals have had the best record in all of baseball since a certain date in June (I can't remember the exact day). I forgot about the whole Gil Meche signing. With Meche sitting at an ERA+ of 128, I can understand why I haven't seen anything more about it.

Eric_Davis
08-01-2007, 06:43 AM
I change my mind on this. I'm halfway going with what Flyer85 said. I don't think this will be Wayne's decision. I think Allen and Castellini will make this decision and they will decide to not pick up his option and take the draft picks. I think Krivsky would rather pick up the option, if he hasn't traded him by then, and continue to try to trade him until the trading deadline of next year for something "better" than the two draft picks because the worst he can do is get the two draft picks.

I didn't cast my vote until this post, so I made it 38-4 in favor of thinking that the REDS will pick up Dunn's option.

RedsBaron
08-01-2007, 07:01 AM
I didn't cast my vote until this post, so I made it 38-4 in favor of thinking that the REDS will pick up Dunn's option.

I'll make it 39-4 then.
Dunn will be a Red until at least June 15, 2008, barring a trade offer that Wayne cannot turn down, and that is now unlikely.

RedsBaron
08-01-2007, 07:04 AM
Maybe the Reds decide to dump Marty?

I vote for that.

flyer85
08-01-2007, 08:48 AM
Not surprising ... Marty's been saying that all year, he's the leader of the "Send Dunn Somewhere Else" parade.

puca
08-01-2007, 09:04 AM
I have a bad feeling about this. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the Reds picking up his option.

It becomes more difficult to trade Dunn if the option is picked up. The fact that the Reds spent a lot of time seeing if Votto could play LF lead me to believe they are planning for life without Dunn. Now that Bruce is in AAA and doing well, that may be another justification as to why Dunn is expendible.

I really think they will decline the option and offer arbitration. If he accepts arbitration, which is doubtful, he won't be protected with a no-trade clause and will be easier to trade. If he declines arbitration the Reds will get the draft picks.

The reason he wasn't moved at the deadline is because Krivsky is desperately trying to save his own job.

GAC
08-01-2007, 09:09 AM
I think Marty was simply dreaming out loud. ;)

But Dunn is a goner. Maybe not this year, but definitely the next. He has priced himself out of Cincy. They are looking for Votto to be that offensive replacement, and at a much cheaper rate.

redsmetz
08-01-2007, 09:09 AM
I have a bad feeling about this. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the Reds picking up his option.

It becomes more difficult to trade Dunn if the option is picked up. The fact that the Reds spent a lot of time seeing if Votto could play LF lead me to believe they are planning for life without Dunn. Now that Bruce is in AAA and doing well, that may be another justification as to why Dunn is expendible.

I really think they will decline the option and offer arbitration. If he accepts arbitration, which is doubtful, he won't be protected with a no-trade clause and will be easier to trade. If he declines arbitration the Reds will get the draft picks.

The reason he wasn't moved at the deadline is because Krivsky is desperately trying to save his own job.

I'm not sure arbitration is an option here. If we decline the option, I believe he's a free agent and then we negotiate with everyone else.

I haven't throught this out completely, but is it possible that Dunn's contract is structured the way it is to keep him a Red? And that keeping him a Red was the intent of both Dunn and his agent and the Reds? I remember Dunn saying something that intimated that the contract was structured that way. I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics to that, but it was earlier this season. And maybe I'm just crazy.

mbgrayson
08-01-2007, 09:18 AM
Not surprising ... Marty's been saying that all year, he's the leader of the "Send Dunn Somewhere Else" parade.

I must admit that I also get tired of hearing Marty's negativism toward Dunn. I mean the guys got flaws, no doubt. I wince everytime he strikes out too. And I know Marty has earned his right to express an opinion after all the years he has covered the Reds. I just wish he could tone it down. It really does seem sometimes that he is trying to drive Dunn out of town.

Look at this nugget of information from today's Dayton Daily News:
"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."

I believe it too. I can't imagine Dunn's family having to listen to Marty wail on Dunn again and again. I just wish Marty could see the good along with the bad and be balanced. Yes the guy strikes out too much, fails in too many RISP situations, and isn't a great fielder. But he is hitting .260/.362/.542 for an OPS of .904 with 27 HRs. Those aren't exactly Juan Castro numbers...

bucksfan2
08-01-2007, 09:31 AM
I must admit that I also get tired of hearing Marty's negativism toward Dunn. I mean the guys got flaws, no doubt. I wince everytime he strikes out too. And I know Marty has earned his right to express an opinion after all the years he has covered the Reds. I just wish he could tone it down. It really does seem sometimes that he is trying to drive Dunn out of town.


Its unprofessionalizm at its best. Marty has been around for a long time but someone needs to tell him to stop his constant criticism of Dunn. Its old, tiresome, and is beginning to lower my view of Marty as a broadcaster.

As for Dunn he should be back for the reds next year. If John Allen is involved in making baseball decisions then I would lose all faith in this reds organization and probably not spend another dime at the stadium until he was fired.

flyer85
08-01-2007, 09:39 AM
"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."I guess maybe if the broadcasters remembered that they are talking about a mothers son maybe they wouldn't be so shrill.

To tell you the truth I believe there is something personal that Marty has against Dunn. The level of animosity displayed is too high. It is obvious that Marty has been campaigning to get Dunn moved somewhere else. It makes no sense for a teams own broadcasters to consistently denigrate one of the teams best assets. Sure he has his warts but he is still a good player. Having XM radio and listened to other broadcasts I have never heard another teams mouthpieces run down their own players.

It is absurd ... and sad.

lollipopcurve
08-01-2007, 09:46 AM
Look at this nugget of information from today's Dayton Daily News:
"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."

I love that Dunn came out with this. Finally. The organization needs to wake up and realize that the so-called "culture" of this team has been polluted by an incredibly poorly conceived media strategy. And if they don't think the players are affected by it, they are woefully mistaken.

flyer85
08-01-2007, 09:53 AM
I love that Dunn came out with this. Finally. The organization needs to wake up and realize that the so-called "culture" of this team has been polluted by an incredibly poorly conceived media strategy. And if they don't think the players are affected by it, they are woefully mistaken.Dunn has really taken the high road all along, probably because he realizes that it is a losing battle.

But the fact the Reds have allowed it to go on and reach this point is bizarre. Don't think for a second that other players don't notice and make a mental note.

It is also interesting that Dunn chose to give that quote to Marc Katz(McCoy fill-in) and not give it to Hal.

Redsland
08-01-2007, 10:10 AM
The organization needs to wake up and realize that the so-called "culture" of this team has been polluted by an incredibly poorly conceived media strategy. And if they don't think the players are affected by it, they are woefully mistaken.
:clap: Hear, hear.

nate
08-01-2007, 10:29 AM
I bet Norris Hopper's mom watches all the games.

Sea Ray
08-01-2007, 11:07 AM
he receives a 500K assignment bonus if traded- + the value of the option could rise to 16M with award-based escalators-

Anybody know what those escalators are? If his salary is $16mill it's a different story...

NJReds
08-01-2007, 11:13 AM
I guess maybe if the broadcasters remembered that they are talking about a mothers son maybe they wouldn't be so shrill.

To tell you the truth I believe there is something personal that Marty has against Dunn. The level of animosity displayed is too high. It is obvious that Marty has been campaigning to get Dunn moved somewhere else. It makes no sense for a teams own broadcasters to consistently denigrate one of the teams best assets. Sure he has his warts but he is still a good player. Having XM radio and listened to other broadcasts I have never heard another teams mouthpieces run down their own players.

It is absurd ... and sad.


Since I don't live in Cincinnati, I don't get to hear Marty all that often. So what I know is from comments on this board. But it always sounded personal to me, and I don't understand how an organization lets its announcers pound on its players in such a manner.

I've grown up in NY and spent some time in the SF Bay Area and I've heard many announcers for the Mets, Giants, A's and Yankees. (edit: as well as the Knicks, Nets, Rangers, Devils, Islanders, Giants, Jets, 49ers and Warriors). I really don't recall any player drawing this type of rancor from an announcer. Heck the Giants announcers even tapdanced around Chris Brown and his strained eyelid...

Cyclone792
08-01-2007, 11:17 AM
Anybody know what those escalators are? If his salary is $16mill it's a different story...

Award-based escalators, which likely means a large chunk of that is probably tied into winning the MVP or finishing mighty high in MVP voting. And if Adam Dunn wins the NL MVP in 2008, then he can have every penny of his maximum value $16 million salary.

Other such awards would be a Silver Slugger, All-Star game appearance, and Gold Glove.

If Adam Dunn hits any of his award escalators, then I have no problem with the team giving him a little raise. People have to remember that if he's hitting those escalators, then he'd likely be having a very nice and productive season for the Reds. I don't see why fans wouldn't want that to happen.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 12:03 PM
I bet Norris Hopper's mom watches all the games.

He is a "run producer"

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 12:04 PM
Krono, my man, I know you posted this as a joke, but ..... can I say sure, I really do want to be the Royals?

I was thinking Royals 1990-Now

So we just have to wait till 2017 it appears..woo :D

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 12:06 PM
Sadly I don't think the radio booth attacks will end with Dunn leaving town, they already have a sore spot for EE and expect Votto and Bruce to land there as well because they strike out too much.

RedsBaron
08-01-2007, 12:41 PM
Sadly I don't think the radio booth attacks will end with Dunn leaving town, they already have a sore spot for EE and expect Votto and Bruce to land there as well because they strike out too much.

I expect that you are correct, unfortunately.
It is a sad commentary that the Reds big offseason acquisition and promotion after 2006 was adding Thom Brennaman to the broadcasting team. The Reds in effect were saying "hey the team stinks but our announcers are great." Sadder still, the announcers are not great.

pedro
08-01-2007, 12:55 PM
Look at this nugget of information from today's Dayton Daily News:
"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."

.


Marty's not a good announcer anymore. He's just a mean spirited judgmental old fool who needs to retire before he makes us all forget that he was once actually pretty good at his job. Personally I find it the height of irony that a guy who is so absolutely lousy at his own job presumes to judge others for how they do theirs.

pedro
08-01-2007, 12:56 PM
and don't get me started on Thom or "the cowboy".......

flyer85
08-01-2007, 01:05 PM
BTW, the Dunn comment about his parents finally got me fired up enough to send an e-mail. I sent it to John Allen ... and got a response within an hour. He stated he forwarded it to Mr. Castellini and asked to be able to send it on to Marty. I told him to go for it.

He made a few other comments but I am not going to share those.

BRM
08-01-2007, 01:07 PM
BTW, the Dunn comment about his parents finally got me fired up enough to send an e-mail. I sent it to John Allen ... and got a response within an hour. He stated he forwarded it to Mr. Castellini and asked to be able to send it on to Marty. I told him to go for it.

He made a few other comments but I am not going to share those.

Were they already aware of Dunn's comments or did your email "shed the light"?

M2
08-01-2007, 01:08 PM
I love that Dunn came out with this. Finally. The organization needs to wake up and realize that the so-called "culture" of this team has been polluted by an incredibly poorly conceived media strategy. And if they don't think the players are affected by it, they are woefully mistaken.

Great post. It's sad that the organization leaves young players to take a shellacking from the guys in the announcer booth.

I'm glad Dunn's stepped up to say something. It goes well beyond him and it's wrong. I'd like to see the whole team make a statement on this one. Veterans like Jr. and Hatteberg and Conine, who've been around to know how abnormal the these constant attacks are, ought to step up and say so. The Reds have an announcer campaigning to release one of the better players on the team. It's incredible and tragic that I can write that sentence. Something needs to be done.

M2
08-01-2007, 01:13 PM
BTW, the Dunn comment about his parents finally got me fired up enough to send an e-mail. I sent it to John Allen ... and got a response within an hour. He stated he forwarded it to Mr. Castellini and asked to be able to send it on to Marty. I told him to go for it.

He made a few other comments but I am not going to share those.

Might I suggest more of us follow flyer's example. Perhaps this is an opportunity to get through to the powers that be.

flyer, could you post John Allen's e-mail or pass it along to those who request it via PM?

flyer85
08-01-2007, 01:14 PM
Were they already aware of Dunn's comments or did your email "shed the light"?his comment was that they were "keenly aware" of that issue.

BRM
08-01-2007, 01:14 PM
his comment was that they were "keenly aware" of that issue.

That's a start then. Thanks flyer.

pedro
08-01-2007, 01:16 PM
That's great Flyer.

nate
08-01-2007, 01:44 PM
Bravo, flyer. Can you share his email address? I'd send him a kindly worded letter too.

RedsBaron
08-01-2007, 01:56 PM
Bravo, flyer. Can you share his email address? I'd send him a kindly worded letter too.

So will I.

lollipopcurve
08-01-2007, 02:00 PM
his comment was that they were "keenly aware" of that issue.

Gives me hope. Great job, flyer.

I'll send one too.

Patrick Bateman
08-01-2007, 02:17 PM
I would too, given the opportunity.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 02:53 PM
Good work Flyer..and..dare I say it? go John Allen

osuceltic
08-01-2007, 02:56 PM
Might I suggest more of us follow flyer's example. Perhaps this is an opportunity to get through to the powers that be.

flyer, could you post John Allen's e-mail or pass it along to those who request it via PM?

Great idea. Let's see if we can get Marty fired so we can get more George Grande and Chris Welsh.

NJReds
08-01-2007, 02:58 PM
Great idea. Let's see if we can get Marty fired so we can get more George Grande and Chris Welsh.

It's not so much about getting him fired. However, it's very unprofessional for a baseball team's announcer to have a personal vendetta against one of the players. Frankly, it shouldn't take emails from fans to get the team to act. But the Reds are a very passive organization.

osuceltic
08-01-2007, 02:58 PM
By the way ... Maybe, just maybe, there are Reds fans out there who feel the same way Marty does not because Marty says so, but because they watch the team and have come to that conclusion on their own.

Of course, if that's the case, they're just ill-informed morons who don't "really" understand the game.

osuceltic
08-01-2007, 03:01 PM
It's not so much about getting him fired. However, it's very unprofessional for a baseball team's announcer to have a personal vendetta against one of the players. Frankly, it shouldn't take emails from fans to get the team to act. But the Reds are a very passive organization.

Marty doesn't dislike Adam Dunn as a person. There is no personal vendetta. Marty is frustrated by Adam Dunn and clearly feels he's not worth the $13 million it would take to keep him next season. It's fine if you don't agree with Marty. But some very reasonable people do agree with him.

I never cease to be amazed by the way so many fans cling to the players on this team when they haven't won in seven years. By all means, let's keep doing what we're doing. If we traded these guys, we might end up one of the worst teams in baseball ...

pedro
08-01-2007, 03:05 PM
Marty doesn't dislike Adam Dunn as a person. There is no personal vendetta. Marty is frustrated by Adam Dunn and clearly feels he's not worth the $13 million it would take to keep him next season. It's fine if you don't agree with Marty. But some very reasonable people do agree with him.

I never cease to be amazed by the way so many fans cling to the players on this team when they haven't won in seven years. By all means, let's keep doing what we're doing. If we traded these guys, we might end up one of the worst teams in baseball ...

By the same token I'm amazed by how many fans cling to Marty Brennaman even though he is no longer a top notch announcer. In fact he's a really bad one at this point. And you're wrong about him not making personal attacks against players, he does it all the time. He's a jerk and I'm praying for the day he's gone and the Reds get an announcer who's own ego doesn't get in the way of his job.

LoganBuck
08-01-2007, 03:11 PM
Marty doesn't dislike Adam Dunn as a person. There is no personal vendetta. Marty is frustrated by Adam Dunn and clearly feels he's not worth the $13 million it would take to keep him next season. It's fine if you don't agree with Marty. But some very reasonable people do agree with him.

I never cease to be amazed by the way so many fans cling to the players on this team when they haven't won in seven years. By all means, let's keep doing what we're doing. If we traded these guys, we might end up one of the worst teams in baseball ...

That is not the point. Marty has gone beyond letting his true feelings be known. It is ok to not like Dunn the player, or the person. It is not ok, to run him down during every broadcast, and to say things like Freel, Hopper, or Keppinger are better hitters, when nearly every statistical comparison shows they are not. He is trying to run a player out of town, and it is very disrespectful, and comes across very poorly. He said last night that it would be "incomprehensible for the the Reds to pick up Adam Dunn's option for next year". Incomprehensible is a word for the continued presence of Juan Castro, or the recently demoted Kirk Saarloos.

I love Marty the broadcaster, Marty the commentator is a brash, conceited fool, who is only concerned with dirty shirts, and leisure suits.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 03:17 PM
I love Marty the broadcaster, Marty the commentator is a brash, conceited fool, who is only concerned with dirty shirts, and leisure suits.

I know I'm known as "pro-Marty" but you raise an excellent point.

I've said before that I enjoy Martys PBP and often disagree with his views on baseball.

I appricate that there are others out there who can also seperate the two. Maybe I am nieve for enjoying the aspects of his job I enjoy while simply seperating out the parts I don't like.

RedsBaron
08-01-2007, 03:25 PM
By the same token I'm amazed by how many fans cling to Marty Brennaman even though he is no longer a top notch announcer. In fact he's a really bad one at this point. And you're wrong about him not making personal attacks against players, he does it all the time. He's a jerk and I'm praying for the day he's gone and the Reds get an announcer who's own ego doesn't get in the way of his job.

I agree. I have come to wish that Marty Brennaman had never been inducted into the broadcaster's wing of the HOF. His attitude seems to be that he is bigger than the team, the guy who will be here after everyone else is gone.
Marty can still call a great game, if he wants to. Unfortunately, he doesn't want to as much anymore.
Adam Dunn is far from a perfect player, and I expect Dunn to fade as a hitter once he reaches is early thirties, but Marty's attacks on Dunn are uncalled for, repetitive, and ignorant.

M2
08-01-2007, 03:26 PM
Here's the e-mail I wrote:


Mr. Allen,

I'm writing in regard to Adam Dunn's comments in the Dayton Daily News today about the treatment he receives from the Reds broadcasters:

"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."

The first thing that crossed my mind is that Dunn's family is not alone. I do the exact same thing. I'm an out-of-town fan and have been since 1972. I find the non-stop vitriol Marty Brennaman directs at young players these days to be inexcusable. I've lived in the Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Baltimore/D.C. media markets during my life and I've never encountered a broadcaster who spews so much venom at the players of the home team. It's not just directed at Dunn either. Brennaman acts as if he's got a blood vendetta against poor Edwin Encarnacion and there's been plenty of others on his hit list.

Anyway, I reached my point with Brennaman a while back and now hear about his continued ranting through others. Yet I think it speaks volumes that he's become so bitter and so relentless that a player's mother can't bear to watch/listen to the games when he's doing the call. I understand the team has been frustrating to watch the past seven seasons. It doesn't please me that the Reds play poor baseball season after season, but Mr. Brennaman has crossed so many lines when it comes to unfairly impugning the character and work ethic of the players on the team that it's become unbearable for this fan. The utter of lack of civility he's displaying in the booth is by far, for me, the most disappointing part of the last seven seasons of Reds baseball.

It's one thing to lose games, it's another to eat your own.

I'm under the distinct impression from comments I've read of late that Mr. Brennaman now seems to be campaigning to have Dunn released at the end of the season (seeing that he hasn't been traded for a negligible return). Does anyone in the organization understand how wrong that is to have him lobbying for a player to be released? How poisonous it is? That's not within a dozen area codes of acceptable behavior for an announcer. It won't end with Adam Dunn either. Jay Bruce and Joey Votto are exciting young talents, but they both swing and miss an awful lot. Homer Bailey may have a great arm, but it's going to take some time before he can harness all that talent. Is ritual denigration from Marty Brennaman going to be the norm for this franchise? I certainly hope not and that basic human decency stands a chance of winning out in this situation.

Adam Dunn's mother and anybody who doesn't want to hate the individual players on the Cincinnati Reds should be able to watch/listen to the games without having to endure the consistent denigration of the players on the field by the members of the announcing team. To the best of my knowledge, this sort of savaging is unheard of elsewhere. I've certainly never encountered it.

Thank you for your time.

I encourage others who feel strongly about this to write in and make your feelings known.

pedro
08-01-2007, 03:30 PM
great letter M2.

Redsland
08-01-2007, 03:31 PM
Killer, killer letter, M2.

M2
08-01-2007, 03:34 PM
Great idea. Let's see if we can get Marty fired so we can get more George Grande and Chris Welsh.

Well, I vastly prefer Grande and Welsh since they don't turn a baseball game into a pogrom.

Yet it's not about Marty's employment for me. It's about the Cincinnati Reds not allowing the team broadcasters to use the players as their personal pinatas. I'd like to think Marty can see the light of reason - hey, if player's families can't bear to watch the games, maybe I've gone overboard. If he can't or won't, if he thinks campaigning to have players released from the team is perfectly normal behavior for a broadcaster, then I'm not going to shed a tear if he gets the boot. Anything is better than that.

nate
08-01-2007, 03:36 PM
Outstanding, M2!

VR
08-01-2007, 03:37 PM
Nicely Done M2, nicely done.

NJReds
08-01-2007, 03:41 PM
Marty doesn't dislike Adam Dunn as a person. There is no personal vendetta. Marty is frustrated by Adam Dunn and clearly feels he's not worth the $13 million it would take to keep him next season. It's fine if you don't agree with Marty. But some very reasonable people do agree with him.


I'm going by what's posted on this board and the words attributed to him. He seems to have crossed the line based on this, IMO. I want the Reds to do what it takes to win. If that means trading Dunn, then so be it. But the announcer is an extension of the team, and should temper his criticisms with facts, not vitriol.

LoganBuck
08-01-2007, 03:41 PM
Can someone PM me a email address for John Allen, I would like to make my feelings known on this issue as well.

lollipopcurve
08-01-2007, 03:43 PM
It's one thing to lose games, it's another to eat your own.

Great letter, great line.

Joseph
08-01-2007, 03:43 PM
Simply terrible that its come to that point for Dunn's family, assuming its true.

I likewise reached my fill point this afternoon with a certain local radio host, who played a clip of Adam's mom and dad complaining about Brennaman and Brantley. It was clearly intended to be a comedy sketch, but it was very impolite to those of us who call ourselves 'southerners' as it was clearly meant to make fun of his family and the 'south'. it was disrespectful to Adam and his family most of all, and he's frankly as bad as Marty or Jeff or Thom now. He's been sliding down the hill for some time. Much like Marty I assume the positive press he gets has gone to his head and he thinks people will blindly follow his lead. Not this Reds fan.

I won't listen to either of those stations [1530 or 700] anymore between this and the Tracy Jones soap opera. I hope the Reds will use some of their financial weight and push for changes at both locations.

Criticism is fine, as long as its justified. Sophomoric attempts at humor and frankly unentertaining radio are something I can do without in life.

membengal
08-01-2007, 03:50 PM
Don't know if its McAlister you are referring to Joseph, but I have called it up on the 'net this afternoon, and to characterize him as vitriolic toward Dunn would be understatement at this point...

lollipopcurve
08-01-2007, 03:52 PM
Don't know if its McAlister you are referring to Joseph, but I have called it up on the 'net this afternoon, and to characterize him as vitriolic toward Dunn would be understatement at this point...

The sooner the Reds get off WLW, the better.

Red Leader
08-01-2007, 03:57 PM
Don't know if its McAlister you are referring to Joseph, but I have called it up on the 'net this afternoon, and to characterize him as vitriolic toward Dunn would be understatement at this point...

I listened to his show yesterday on the way home. I don't know why, I never listen to that show, just wanted to hear some baseball news on trade deadline day.

The impression that I got was that he purposely appeals to the "casual fan" so that he himself feels superior, intellectually. That's just the impression that I got after listening to the last 4 callers of his show, all of whom gave me the mental picture of some mid 30 yr old guy sitting in his parents home, staring at his 1974 Pete Rose baseball card, with a neon sign in the background that says "gO rEDz!!!"

Like I said, I never listen to that show, and yesterday reminded me why. Maybe yesterday was just a "small sample size" of the big picture and I'm out of line making the above comments, but I doubt it.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 04:02 PM
Lance became unlikeable a few years back, interestingly about the time that his big hero Sean Casey was dealt, he's now just like the rest of the local radio guys, Marty included, tabloid radio...say as much junk as you can and maybe .0005% will be true

Matt700wlw
08-01-2007, 04:04 PM
The sooner the Reds get off WLW, the better.

That would be a mistake. The wouldn't find coverage like we have anywhere else. 38 states, half of Canada (at night)...and that's without the other affiliates.

There's a new deal in the works, anyway, I believe

Joseph
08-01-2007, 04:05 PM
Don't know if its McAlister you are referring to Joseph, but I have called it up on the 'net this afternoon, and to characterize him as vitriolic toward Dunn would be understatement at this point...

It is yes.

I tried to listen to that one because I at least get relatively 'breaking' sports news if something happens, but mostly to feel more connected to a city and the teams I love.

I've tolerated his dislike of him [Dunn], but over the past season and a half he's gone beyond dislike and into trying to sway the listeners into not liking him either. He's Marty. I don't know if he's idolizing Marty and thus trying to imitate him [what kid who wanted to be on radio probably didn't in his age group after all?] but its tired and so is his show.

RL, as I said, it's been this way for the better part of a year and a half now. Your assessment of appealing to the casual fan so he can seem more intelligent is pretty well spot on.

Not to single out Membengal, but when he called in a month or so ago and gave Lance points he couldn't out talk, the call had to be ended. In other words, someone with a more intelligent eye explained things to him and he didn't look like the all knowing and so he had to shut it down.

I get that its entertainment, its just not MY entertainment anymore if they won't accept logic and reason.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 04:06 PM
Coverage that basically tells the listener that they should spend their time doing something else?

Joseph
08-01-2007, 04:07 PM
Coverage that basically tells the listener that they should spend your time doing something else?

Sounds like its time to launch Redszone Radio on XM.

Red Leader
08-01-2007, 04:08 PM
Sounds like its time to launch Redszone Radio on XM.

:beerme:

A business venture. I'm in. :laugh:

Matt700wlw
08-01-2007, 04:09 PM
Coverage that basically tells the listener that they should spend their time doing something else?

Reds fans want to hear Reds games....on 700WLW, they have a good chance of doing that because the coverage is so great, they don't necessarily have to be "local" to do it...and the signal doesn't "power down" like a lot of stations have to at night.

If they don't want to listen to the talking heads before or after, that's their choice. Nobody is forcing them to listen, if they don't like what they say.

Nobody's forcing them to listen to Marty either, but unless you have XM or are near a TV, the medium is there for Reds fans, and most Reds fans, even if they aren't Marty fans, will listen to the games if that's the way they have to do it....they like the Reds.

Good for us. Good for the Reds.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 04:12 PM
Sounds like its time to launch Redszone Radio on XM.

That would be great.

I'm sure we could sell at least $17.50 of air time for that. :laugh:

Here's the pitch - tune in and listen to us argue about the same stuff over and over!

M2
08-01-2007, 04:14 PM
Here's the pitch - tune in and listen to us argue about the same stuff over and over!

No way, it should be - tune in and listen to us argue over and over about the same stuff.

Red Leader
08-01-2007, 04:16 PM
No way, it should be - tune in and listen to us argue over and over about the same stuff.

I'm with M2.

He's got more posts. :p:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:mooner: :mooner:

Joseph
08-01-2007, 04:17 PM
I think we can get an hour a day between 2 AM and 3 AM, and we'll have to broadcast out of a 79 Surburban, but it'd be totally worth it to argue about the same things with different featured RZ players everyday over and over.

Matt700wlw
08-01-2007, 04:19 PM
I think we can get an hour a day between 2 AM and 3 AM, and we'll have to broadcast out of a 79 Surburban, but it'd be totally worth it to argue about the same things with different featured RZ players everyday over and over.

I'm in :D and I'm up then!

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 04:20 PM
No way, it should be - tune in and listen to us argue over and over about the same stuff.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. :p:

I'll help in anyway I can, but I don't want the graveyard shift. Drive time or nothing.

Red Leader
08-01-2007, 04:21 PM
After the 1st day:

"Sorry, no show tomorrow, we were all subponead to appear at a Grand Jury hearing involving banned substances. We'll be coming back the day after with a tribute to the career of former broadcaster Marty Brennaman, so stay tuned for that!"

:laugh:

M2
08-01-2007, 04:28 PM
You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

Oh yeah? Well buddy, ... um ... what is it we're talking about again?

Chip R
08-01-2007, 04:31 PM
We can even have a couple of segments on steroids and life in the minors by you-know-who. :evil:

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 04:34 PM
Oh yeah? Well buddy, ... um ... what is it we're talking about again?

Something about arguing about stuff. Or something.

M2
08-01-2007, 04:36 PM
Something about arguing about stuff. Or something.

Hmm, we definitely seem to have lost the thread here, but I'm morally certain you're wrong. That much I'm sure of.

Red Leader
08-01-2007, 04:37 PM
Moving forward we'll have the Down on the Farm report by Puff.....ewwwww, good thing we don't have video. :laugh:

Joseph
08-01-2007, 04:37 PM
Hmm, we definitely seem to have lost the thread here, but I'm morally certain you're wrong. That much I'm sure of.

Just get off your moral high horse pal....

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 04:37 PM
Hmm, we definitely seem to have lost the thread here, but I'm morally certain you're wrong. That much I'm sure of.

The biggest question we need to answer is will our radio show be on during drive-time?

Drive-time or nothing for us, I says.

Well, that and good snackies in the green-room of the Suburban....er...um...radio station.

BRM
08-01-2007, 04:38 PM
If M2 or SteelSD get to host a segment, BadFundamentals/prose14 must be their first guest. That would be quality radio.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 04:39 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here.

Many Redszone members have a face for Radio.

Of this much, I am sure.

M2
08-01-2007, 04:39 PM
The biggest question we need to answer is will our radio show be on during drive-time?

Drive-time or nothing for us, I says.

Well, that and good snackies in the green-room of the Suburban....er...um...radio station.

I refuse to work under those conditions. It's VW Bus or nothing.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 04:40 PM
I refuse to work under those conditions. It's VW Bus or nothing.

Hippie!

Eric_Davis
08-01-2007, 04:42 PM
There's a nice story unfolding.

Where would be the best place for Adam Dunn to play baseball for the next 6 years?

Texas, of course.

What do the REDS need position-wise more than any other position?

Catcher, of course.

Who has the most depth in their organization at catcher now that the trading deadline has passed?

Texas, of course.

A Dunn to Texas trade for catching and whatever else needs to balance the trade would be a perfect match.

jojo
08-01-2007, 04:47 PM
There's a nice story unfolding.

Where would be the best place for Adam Dunn to play baseball for the next 6 years?

Texas, of course.

What do the REDS need position-wise more than any other position?

Catcher, of course.

Who has the most depth in their organization at catcher now that the trading deadline has passed?

Texas, of course.

A Dunn to Texas trade for catching and whatever else needs to balance the trade would be a perfect match.

Do you think Dunn would be enough to get that Pudge guy from Texas? I think he might turn out to be a good one.

M2
08-01-2007, 04:47 PM
Hippie!

I'd stab a hippie with his own pachuli. I just want the sink.

VR
08-01-2007, 04:50 PM
I think we can get an hour a day between 2 AM and 3 AM, and we'll have to broadcast out of a 79 Surburban, but it'd be totally worth it to argue about the same things with different featured RZ players everyday over and over.

Anybody still have the keys to the Redszone Idiotmobile? That would only be fitting as the broadcast vehicle. :beerme:

flyer85
08-01-2007, 04:56 PM
Where would be the best place for Adam Dunn to play baseball for the next 6 years?

Texas, of course.
I made the point a few months back that the Rangers would be a nice fit for Dunn and if he becomes a free agent I could see him signing with them.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 05:02 PM
AL would be nice, I don't want to see Dunn hitting against us 10 times a year

Eric_Davis
08-01-2007, 05:03 PM
Do you think Dunn would be enough to get that Pudge guy from Texas? I think he might turn out to be a good one.

Funny you should joke about that. With Pudge being a free-agent at the end of this year, and if they can move Dunn's contract, then Pudge would be someone I would pay premium dollar for, even at this stage of his career. One of the best catcher's of all-time in both calling games and working with pitchers, especially young pitchers, he would be the greatest asset we could add to this team over the next several years.


There are ways to improve this club immediately for 2008 and I feel signing pudge would be the #1 way of doing it. And they could still trade Dunn to Texas for Max Ramirez or Salomon Manriquez plus whatever else balances out the trade. Either of those two catchers or the REDS' own Miguel Perez or Craig Tatum would then be ready to take over for Pudge 3 or 4 years later.

jojo
08-01-2007, 05:23 PM
Funny you should joke about that. With Pudge being a free-agent at the end of this year, and if they can move Dunn's contract, then Pudge would be someone I would pay premium dollar for, even at this stage of his career. One of the best catcher's of all-time in both calling games and working with pitchers, especially young pitchers, he would be the greatest asset we could add to this team over the next several years.


There are ways to improve this club immediately for 2008 and I feel signing pudge would be the #1 way of doing it. And they could still trade Dunn to Texas for Max Ramirez or Salomon Manriquez plus whatever else balances out the trade. Either of those two catchers or the REDS' own Miguel Perez or Craig Tatum would then be ready to take over for Pudge 3 or 4 years later.

The Tigers have a club option for Pudge in '08.

If they don't exercise it, a two year deal (with an option for a third?) might be enough for him though those two years would likely come at a premium with his offense really declining (but he'd probably benefit from leaving Detroit for GABP).

Raisor
08-01-2007, 05:39 PM
If M2 or SteelSD get to host a segment, BadFundamentals/prose14 must be their first guest. That would be quality radio.

BF is MY white whale.

I at least get to be a sidekick on that interview.

BRM
08-01-2007, 05:40 PM
BF is MY white whale.

I at least get to be a sidekick on that interview.

How could I forget you? We'll just throw M2 out and put you in the seat for that interview.

pedro
08-01-2007, 05:44 PM
NPR (No Pants Radio) with Phil Raisor.

Blitz Dorsey
08-02-2007, 08:59 PM
So the Dunn family likes bad announcers? Maybe they would watch even more Reds game if we brought Steve Stewart back. "He might be boring, but he won't rip on my Adam!"

Sorry, I can't feel sorry for the family of someone who is making $10 million and is setting new MLB strikeout records each year and can't play a lick of defense. He deserves to be criticized when he plays poorly just like he deserves to be praised when he plays well. A terrible announcer like George Grande would never criticize anyone no matter how bad they were playing and that is why Mrs. Dunn likes him. Give me Marty all day who will actually tell you what is on his mind! I relate with Marty a heck of a lot more than I do with someone like Grande or Stewart.

I hope some of you never get what you want and we're left with a couple of muzzled announcers in the radio box.

RedsBaron
08-03-2007, 06:49 AM
Give me Marty all day who will actually tell you what is on his mind!

My problem with Marty is exactly what appears to be on his mind: "How can I advance my vendetta against Adam Dunn today."

nate
08-03-2007, 07:44 AM
So the Dunn family likes bad announcers?

They _love_ bad announcers. They hope the Reds hire Brian Collins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W45DRy7M1no) to announce the games and recycle his most famous line every time Adam hits a dinger.


Maybe they would watch even more Reds game if we brought Steve Stewart back.

Maybe!


"He might be boring, but he won't rip on my Adam!"

Nor will he petition the Reds to start NoHo over Adam Dunn.


Sorry, I can't feel sorry for the family of someone who is making $10 million and is setting new MLB strikeout records each year and can't play a lick of defense.

If he made, say $5 million, would you? How about if he made $3.14 million would you feel sorry for extended family members and perhaps one of the pets (but not all)?

Let's make a deal, if he makes $2.04 million, you won't feel "sorry" but you'll convey empathy with up to 4 close friends and an ex-girlfriend that Adam is "cool" with. Said empathy doesn't have to include any verbal acknowledgment but can be expressed with facial expressions like a furrowed brow or a slightly extended lower lip (which may quiver at your option).


He deserves to be criticized when he plays poorly just like he deserves to be praised when he plays well.

I always wonder why he just doesn't turn in a "Ted Kluszewski c. 1954" year after year.


A terrible announcer like George Grande would never criticize anyone no matter how bad they were playing and that is why Mrs. Dunn likes him. Give me Marty all day who will actually tell you what is on his mind! I relate with Marty a heck of a lot more than I do with someone like Grande or Stewart.

You do? I hadn't noticed.


I hope some of you never get what you want and we're left with a couple of muzzled announcers in the radio box.

With all the "nnd aats a ln drrrrv nto rght fld", the stations can save a lot od money on de-essers!

:)

pedro
08-03-2007, 11:56 AM
After looking at Jay Bruce's .983 OPS in 83 AB's at AAA I really have to think that either Dunn or Griffey will be gone next year. My gut feel is that it'll be Dunn.

KronoRed
08-03-2007, 12:01 PM
I'd hope they want to see more then 83abs before making that decision, be like calling up Bailey after 2 good starts, if Bruce flames out we have little to help.

pedro
08-03-2007, 12:04 PM
I'd hope they want to see more then 83abs before making that decision, be like calling up Bailey after 2 good starts, if Bruce flames out we have little to help.

I don't see him getting called up this year so he'll get another 100 or so AB's in AAA. I don't see it as that much different from when they brought Dunn up so quickly in 2001. As for the comparisons to Bailey, I don't see it b/c it was pretty obvious he wasn't ready.

Blitz Dorsey
08-03-2007, 12:23 PM
They _love_ bad announcers. They hope the Reds hire Brian Collins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W45DRy7M1no) to announce the games and recycle his most famous line every time Adam hits a dinger.



Maybe!



Nor will he petition the Reds to start NoHo over Adam Dunn.



If he made, say $5 million, would you? How about if he made $3.14 million would you feel sorry for extended family members and perhaps one of the pets (but not all)?

Let's make a deal, if he makes $2.04 million, you won't feel "sorry" but you'll convey empathy with up to 4 close friends and an ex-girlfriend that Adam is "cool" with. Said empathy doesn't have to include any verbal acknowledgment but can be expressed with facial expressions like a furrowed brow or a slightly extended lower lip (which may quiver at your option).



I always wonder why he just doesn't turn in a "Ted Kluszewski c. 1954" year after year.



You do? I hadn't noticed.



With all the "nnd aats a ln drrrrv nto rght fld", the stations can save a lot od money on de-essers!

:)

I'm flattered. You put a lot of work into that.

deltachi8
08-03-2007, 02:58 PM
Yesterday during the game (2nd inning), Marty sounded 100% sure that the Reds can't afford to pick up Dunn's option. When he was discussing trades with John Fay, Marty said (exact words):



He said this so emphatically that he knew it was the case.

Personally, I was shocked when I heard this. To me, I don't think there is a chance in the world that the Reds won't pick it up if he isn't traded.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE REDS WILL DO? Not what do you want them to do, or what you think they should do. What will they do?

I just want to see who is crazy here, me or Marty.



****Disclaimer, this is NOT a Marty bashing thread, or an Adam Dunn thread. This IS a "Will the Reds pick up his option?"

Marty is the crazy party.

I remember before the Griffey trade Marty was being interviewed on the radio and was absolutely 100% sure there was no way Ken Griffey Jr would be a Red. (He actually may have used those words, I don't remmber exactly). He said there i sno way a team like Cincinnati can afford to pay that kind of money to a player.

deltachi8
08-03-2007, 03:01 PM
My problem with Marty is exactly what appears to be on his mind: "How can I advance my vendetta against Adam Dunn today."

or talk about my golf game.

pedro
08-03-2007, 03:09 PM
or talk about my golf game.

or his tomato plants

or what his cronies are up to

pretty much anything but what is actually going on in the game.

it's the marty b show! featuring occasional interludes where we discuss todays game! hooray!

osuceltic
08-03-2007, 04:22 PM
Marty is the crazy party.

I remember before the Griffey trade Marty was being interviewed on the radio and was absolutely 100% sure there was no way Ken Griffey Jr would be a Red. (He actually may have used those words, I don't remmber exactly). He said there i sno way a team like Cincinnati can afford to pay that kind of money to a player.

He was right -- they can't afford it. At least, they can't afford it and still put a good pitching staff on the field.

When a team like the Reds commits so much money to a pair of corner outfielders -- and not elite corner outfielders -- they take away all margin for error elsewhere. They have to be perfect in putting together the rest of the roster. Miss on a few spots, and they're dead. We all know the Reds have missed on some of those spots. But it's the lack of maneuverability to correct those mistakes that really hurts -- and that goes back to the two eight-figure beer leaguers on the corners.

M2
08-03-2007, 04:31 PM
He was right -- they can't afford it. At least, they can't afford it and still put a good pitching staff on the field.

When a team like the Reds commits so much money to a pair of corner outfielders -- and not elite corner outfielders -- they take away all margin for error elsewhere. They have to be perfect in putting together the rest of the roster. Miss on a few spots, and they're dead. We all know the Reds have missed on some of those spots. But it's the lack of maneuverability to correct those mistakes that really hurts -- and that goes back to the two eight-figure beer leaguers on the corners.

Nah, it's years incredibly bad talent appraisal that's cost the Reds, particularly in the pitching department. FWIW, Krivsky's vastly superior in that area to DanO or JimBo, but all the previous regimes would have done with cash is blow it on lousy ballplayers, mostly on lousy pitchers.

Plus, what's Jr. cost in net present value? Something like $9M a year? If the Reds can't afford that (or if they can't put together a decent team while paying someone that much cash) then it's time they were moved or contracted. Seriously, if you and Marty are right then Cincinnati shouldn't have a major league baseball team.

Chip R
08-03-2007, 04:36 PM
He was right -- they can't afford it. At least, they can't afford it and still put a good pitching staff on the field.

When a team like the Reds commits so much money to a pair of corner outfielders -- and not elite corner outfielders -- they take away all margin for error elsewhere. They have to be perfect in putting together the rest of the roster. Miss on a few spots, and they're dead. We all know the Reds have missed on some of those spots. But it's the lack of maneuverability to correct those mistakes that really hurts -- and that goes back to the two eight-figure beer leaguers on the corners.

You are under the assumption that the good pitchers would want to come here. I'm not saying they wouldn't but freeing up that money doesn't guarantee anything. And even if they would come here there's no guarantee they would pitch well. Look at Barry Zito. Jeff Suppan isn't exactly in contention for the Cy Young award either.

Red Leader
08-03-2007, 04:44 PM
Not sure where this topic has gone, but to the question that the thread asked originally; "Will the Reds pick up Dunn's option?"

I don't think the Reds can afford NOT to pick up Dunn's option now that they haven't traded him.

Their options are pretty clear:

1) Pick up the option, and they retain his rights at $13M for 2008. They can trade him, but when they pick up the option Dunn has FULL no trade clause until June such and such date, and then he has a partial no trade clause (of I believe 19 teams).

2) Decline option, offer arbitration. Have to buy out his option at $500K. Offer him arbitration (to get draft picks). If he declines / refuses arbitration, the Reds get draft picks. If he accepts arbitration, the Reds will pay whatever figure is decided in arbitration, likely more than $13M for a 2008 contract. So essentially, if he accepts arbitration they'll pay $500K + 2008 salary. Yikes is that stupid.

3) Decline option, don't offer arbitration. Just as stupid, if not more. They don't get draft picks and Adam Dunn leaves a big hole in the offense with nothing interesting on the free agent market short of A-Rod.

So, this really shouldn't even be an option. The two scenarios that involve not picking up the option are financially stupid, and just plain stupid.

M2
08-03-2007, 04:56 PM
RL, can they decline the option and offer arbitration? I'd think declining the option would automatically cut him loose from the roster.

MartyFan
08-03-2007, 04:57 PM
Marty's not a good announcer anymore. He's just a mean spirited judgmental old fool who needs to retire before he makes us all forget that he was once actually pretty good at his job. Personally I find it the height of irony that a guy who is so absolutely lousy at his own job presumes to judge others for how they do theirs.

I don't disagree with you...ironic so many on here would ever presume to know anything about running a baseball organization based on the way they watch a game.

As for Marty...he is what he is...and you are right, he is a mere shadow of what he once was...a very faint one at that.

osuceltic
08-03-2007, 04:59 PM
Nah, it's years incredibly bad talent appraisal that's cost the Reds, particularly in the pitching department. FWIW, Krivsky's vastly superior in that area to DanO or JimBo, but all the previous regimes would have done with cash is blow it on lousy ballplayers, mostly on lousy pitchers.

Plus, what's Jr. cost in net present value? Something like $9M a year? If the Reds can't afford that (or if they can't put together a decent team while paying someone that much cash) then it's time they were moved or contracted. Seriously, if you and Marty are right then Cincinnati shouldn't have a major league baseball team.

They can afford to pay it for the right kind of player. Junior, even this year, isn't that player. And look at his previous years here. A team like the Reds can't shell out that kind of money for that many years (the more important factor) for a guy who doesn't play a premium position, doesn't put up elite numbers and, most significantly, can't stay healthy.

This season has been nice, but he's still an average at best corner outfielder who is a good but not elite hitter.

When you know you're limited financially, the big-money contracts have to go to pitchers and elite talents -- preferably at premium positions. The Reds, of course, didn't know what they were getting with Junior -- they thought that was a bargain extension. But even under the best case scenario, he was stretching their budget. They were counting on a packed park with him in the fold. Didn't happen that way.

And you're right -- talent evaluation remains the big part of it. If you save that money only to spend it on the Eric Miltons of the world, you're going to lose. I'd like to see what Krivsky could do with more room to maneuver before I judge him one way or the other.

To steer this back on-topic, that's where the decision on Dunn's option comes in.

PuffyPig
08-03-2007, 05:12 PM
RL, can they decline the option and offer arbitration? I'd think declining the option would automatically cut him loose from the roster.


You are right that declining the option would "set him free", i.e. make him a FA.

But like evey other FA, the Reds have to offer him arbitration to get the right to compensation.

And if he accepted arbitration, the Reds could trade him without restriction (i.e. the June 15 deadline would not apply, nor would the team restriction).

Redsland
08-03-2007, 05:12 PM
RL, can they decline the option and offer arbitration? I'd think declining the option would automatically cut him loose from the roster.
If the Reds decline the option, Adam becomes a free agent. Presumably a Type A free agent. So the Reds would be entitled to draft compensation if he was offered arbitration and declined it.

Red Leader
08-03-2007, 05:18 PM
RL, can they decline the option and offer arbitration? I'd think declining the option would automatically cut him loose from the roster.

Not 100% sure.

In looking I've heard several people say that if they decline the option, he immediately becomes a free agent.

I've heard other places say that they can decline the option and still offer him arbitration.

I think it comes down to service time. Would Dunn be a free agent after this year (assuming he was on a 1 yr contract for '07) or would he be a free agent after '08?

Rotoworld says that he shouldn't be a free agent until after the '08 season, so I'm assuming we can offer him arbitration if the option is declined and still own his rights.

pedro
08-03-2007, 05:23 PM
My understanding is that you always have to offer your players arbitration if you want compensation, regardless of service time. The best recent example of this would be Rich Aurilia.

M2
08-03-2007, 05:25 PM
If the Reds decline the option, Adam becomes a free agent. Presumably a Type A free agent. So the Reds would be entitled to draft compensation if he was offered arbitration and declined it.

Though your standard free agent hasn't been released, his contract's just run out. There's still that exclusive negotiating period before he can hit the market as well.

It wouldn't surprise me that if the Reds bought out Dunn's option, it would wipe out the exclusive negotiating period and preclude the possibility of offering him arbitration because he wouldn't be your standard free agent whose contract ran out, he'd be a free agent whose contract was declined. Essentially the team has already negotiated his contract and declined it. I'm not sure it would be allowed a second bite at that apple.

Maybe this has been reported on and I've missed it, but I'm wary of the assumption that a declined option sets off the same free agent triggers as a finished contract.

pedro
08-03-2007, 05:27 PM
Though your standard free agent hasn't been released, his contract's just run out. There's still that exclusive negotiating period before he can hit the market as well.

It wouldn't surprise me that if the Reds bought out Dunn's option, it would wipe out the exclusive negotiating period and preclude the possibility of offering him arbitration because he wouldn't be your standard free agent whose contract ran out, he'd be a free agent whose contract was declined. Essentially the team has already negotiated his contract and declined it. I'm not sure it would be allowed a second bite at that apple.

Maybe this has been reported on and I've missed it, but I'm wary of the assumption that a declined option sets off the same free agent triggers as a finished contract.

I'm not sure if that is true, unless that is the rule when the team holds the option. IIRC, the Reds had a mutual option with Aurilia for this season that was declined by both parties.

Red Leader
08-03-2007, 05:28 PM
JAX should know the answer to this. I gotta go. Maybe I'll PM him tonight.

flyer85
08-03-2007, 05:45 PM
If the Reds decline his option, he will become a free agent. The Reds can still offer arbitration. However, they won't need to unless he is not signed by the arbitration deadline(in December). If he signs with another team before the deadline they will get the draft picks. The only way they don't get the picks is if he is not signed by the deadline and they decline to offer him arbitration.

It is likely Dunn would sign with someone else well before the arbitration deadline.

M2
08-03-2007, 06:27 PM
It is likely Dunn would sign with someone else well before the arbitration deadline.

Is it? I'd think teams might wait and let the Reds cheap themselves out of the picks.

Redsland
08-03-2007, 08:13 PM
Maybe this has been reported on and I've missed it, but I'm wary of the assumption that a declined option sets off the same free agent triggers as a finished contract.
It appears to, from what I gather. Here's (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/12/02/no_arbitration_for_nixon/)a similar situation that occurred in your neck of the woods during the past offseason.

Of the others, the Sox offered arbitration only to reliever Keith Foulke, who elected free agency after the Sox declined to exercise the option they held on his contract, choosing to pay him a $1.5 million buyout instead. Foulke could have remained with the Sox by exercising a $3.75 million player option, but declined, his agent saying Foulke was hoping to find a team closer to his Arizona home. Foulke has until Thursday to accept the offer of arbitration, which in essence would make him a signed player.

But the Sox don't expect Foulke to accept arbitration after already turning down the option on his contract. By offering arbitration, though, the team can receive a supplemental draft pick after another club signs Foulke, who, like Gonzalez, is a Type B free agent.

pedro
08-03-2007, 08:54 PM
thanks redsland

Eric_Davis
08-04-2007, 01:43 AM
Not sure where this topic has gone, but to the question that the thread asked originally; "Will the Reds pick up Dunn's option?"

I don't think the Reds can afford NOT to pick up Dunn's option now that they haven't traded him.

Their options are pretty clear:

1) Pick up the option, and they retain his rights at $13M for 2008. They can trade him, but when they pick up the option Dunn has FULL no trade clause until June such and such date, and then he has a partial no trade clause (of I believe 19 teams).

2) Decline option, offer arbitration. Have to buy out his option at $500K. Offer him arbitration (to get draft picks). If he declines / refuses arbitration, the Reds get draft picks. If he accepts arbitration, the Reds will pay whatever figure is decided in arbitration, likely more than $13M for a 2008 contract. So essentially, if he accepts arbitration they'll pay $500K + 2008 salary. Yikes is that stupid.

3) Decline option, don't offer arbitration. Just as stupid, if not more. They don't get draft picks and Adam Dunn leaves a big hole in the offense with nothing interesting on the free agent market short of A-Rod.

So, this really shouldn't even be an option. The two scenarios that involve not picking up the option are financially stupid, and just plain stupid.

All right, except part of #3. They can decline his option and if he's signed between 15 days after the World Series ends and Dec 1, the REDS still get compensated without having to offer arbitration, which they must do by Dec 1.

Raisor
08-07-2007, 05:32 PM
Hey, did anyone hear back from John Allen, or whomever?

REDREAD
08-07-2007, 10:34 PM
Don't think they will deal Griffey in August, he'll be approaching 600 strong enough to get fans in the seats.
.


I think you 're right. The local radio ads are really pimping Jr's chase to 600 (which isn't a bad idea).

Plus, I really don't think Jr would fetch that much in a trade anyhow. He's more valuable to the Reds to give them a little legitimacy than he'd be to another team.

REDREAD
08-07-2007, 10:35 PM
The Royals have a decent collection of young players, and (gasp!) their pythag has dramatically improved in the last season. Dayton Moore really hasn't done that bad of a job with that club, and while everybody laughed at him with the Meche signing (and I wouldn't have done it myself), I have to give Moore credit because Meche has been solid this season.
.


The Royals generally spent their money a lot wiser than Wayne did this past offseason. Sure, they got stuck with LaRue, but that only cost them about 2 million. We threw away that much on Castro over 2 years.

flyer85
08-07-2007, 10:40 PM
I think you 're right. The local radio ads are really pimping Jr's chase to 600 (which isn't a bad idea).

Plus, I really don't think Jr would fetch that much in a trade anyhow. He's more valuable to the Reds to give them a little legitimacy than he'd be to another team.starting to look like Jr may struggle to make it to 600 by the end of the season.