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Jpup
07-28-2007, 05:38 PM
per Rosenthal.

mth123
07-28-2007, 05:38 PM
On Fox game. Details later

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 05:38 PM
Rosenthal just reported this on the Fox game that is on.

Interesting to say the least.

mbgrayson
07-28-2007, 05:39 PM
FoxSports reporting today (Angels-Tigers game) that the Reds are getting Jorge Cantu for someone...unkown who...?

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 05:40 PM
You finished 4th in the race sir. I finished 3rd only because of my extended thread title.

Haha

mbgrayson
07-28-2007, 05:42 PM
You finished 4th in the race sir. I finished 3rd only because of my extended thread title.

Haha

Lol

Admin should delete duplicate threads....

Red Leader
07-28-2007, 05:42 PM
WTH do we need him for? Yes, he'd be a decent RH bench bat, a sure upgrade there, but IIRC he's got more than a bench salary. He's a 2B that plays 1B.

My only guess is that Conine is on his way out and they wanted a RH platoon partner for Hatteberg. Still, ????

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 05:43 PM
The Reds aquire the Cantu that is smoking at AAA to the line of:

.244/.303/.356/.659

This was in only 23 games.

Joseph
07-28-2007, 05:44 PM
For whom?

And why are we ADDING?

Redny
07-28-2007, 05:44 PM
Buying low.

Red Leader
07-28-2007, 05:45 PM
For whom?

And why are we ADDING?

Better be someone I could care less about losing.

Don't the Rays still owe us a player from Brendan Harris?

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 05:45 PM
For whom?

And why are we ADDING?

No word yet on whom the Reds gave up. I would have to hope that it was a middling prospect.

RL mentioned the theory of wanting a RH bat on the bench if Conine is soon to be traded. I could see that.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2007, 05:45 PM
We better not be giving up anything.

Cantu is one of the last appealing players I could think of going after.

Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 05:47 PM
I cannot confirm or deny the report...

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2007, 05:48 PM
No word yet on whom the Reds gave up. I would have to hope that it was a middling prospect.

RL mentioned the theory of wanting a RH bat on the bench if COnine is soon to be traded. I could see that.

Except he can't hit lefties, and never really has. Career wise, hes' been slightly better against righties. He is not the type you use a platoon player. I'd rather toss Hatteberg out against lefties too f those are the only options.

Here's his career line against lefties:

.291/.444/.735

Red Leader
07-28-2007, 05:49 PM
Cantu got some sweet OBP skilllzzz. :rolleyes:

jojo
07-28-2007, 05:50 PM
If true, thus ends the grande experiment with improving the defense......

Seriously, that's just what this roster needs for next season,,,,

Three catchers, two left-handed firstbaseman and two Keppinger types to take at bats away from EE.

For me it's kind of a meh....

WVRedsFan
07-28-2007, 05:50 PM
Except he can't hit lefties, and never really has. Career wise, hes' been slightly better against righties. He is not the type you use a platoon player. I'd rather toss Hatteberg out against lefties too f those are the only options.

Here's his career line against lefties:

.291/.444/.735

He's hitless in his last 17 ABs. This is typical Wayne Krivsky. Go out on a limb and hope for the best. It's way beyond that now, Wayne.

And like AK says, he'd better not give up anyone good for this Hor-hay guy.

mth123
07-28-2007, 05:50 PM
WTH do we need him for? Yes, he'd be a decent RH bench bat, a sure upgrade there, but IIRC he's got more than a bench salary. He's a 2B that plays 1B.

My only guess is that Conine is on his way out and they wanted a RH platoon partner for Hatteberg. Still, ????

He makes 410K. Kind of backfill that the Reds should be after to fill out the roster follwing a purge. He might put on a power show in GABP.

As long as the guy the reds trade is a real stinker (Saarloos anyone?) this is a decent gamble.

Red Leader
07-28-2007, 05:51 PM
KeyMastur reporting it's Shackleford and Medlock to the Rays for Cantu.

If that's the case. Damn. Shack I don't mind, but Medlock? Not worth it, IMO.

camisadelgolf
07-28-2007, 05:51 PM
Two thoughts came to mind for me (but they won't develop beyond thoughts in my head):
1.) Maybe Alex Gonzalez will be gone for a long time.
2.) Maybe Edwin Encarnacion is on his way out.

How I feel about this all depends on who was traded to get him. I'm not excited about him, though. He can't take a walk, is inconsistent, and as I recall, doesn't play particularly good defense. On the other hand, he managed to get 117 RBI for the 2005 Devil Rays, and he's only 25 years old.

indy_dave00
07-28-2007, 05:52 PM
Shows how little I know about Tampa Bay , he hit .286 , 40 2b's , 28 homers and drove in 117 runs in 2005.

WVRedsFan
07-28-2007, 05:52 PM
KeyMastur reporting it's Shackleford and Medlock to the Rays for Cantu.

If that's the case. Damn. Shack I don't mind, but Medlock? Not worth it, IMO.

For crying out loud. Our GM is a madman.

Medlock? Wow.

Red Leader
07-28-2007, 05:53 PM
Shows how little I know about Tampa Bay , he hit .286 , 40 2b's , 28 homers and drove in 117 runs in 2005.

He did have a WOW season back in 2005, but has really struggled with injuries and performance since.

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 05:55 PM
For crying out loud. Our GM is a madman.

Medlock? Wow.

If you had been paying attention to the Reds love(or lack of) for Medlock, no it is not.

mth123
07-28-2007, 05:55 PM
KeyMastur reporting it's Shackleford and Medlock to the Rays for Cantu.

If that's the case. Damn. Shack I don't mind, but Medlock? Not worth it, IMO.

Ughh! If Medlock is involved WK should be fired unless another player is coming also.

KronoRed
07-28-2007, 05:55 PM
He's bench fodder, sure hope we didn't give up anything more then bench fodder to get him

WVRedsFan
07-28-2007, 05:57 PM
If you had been paying attention to the Reds love(or lack of) for Medlock, no it is not.


Oh, I've been paying attention, but I don't agree with it (of course, it doesn't matter what I think).

There has to be another shoe to drop, don't you think? Surely we wouldn't carry 3 first basemen like we do catchers. Would we?

Marty and Joe
07-28-2007, 05:57 PM
Low-risk, high reward - depending on who we gave up. Buying low is correct.

Another potential pluck like Ross, Ross, Phillips, etc.

Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 05:57 PM
If he takes the place of Castro, it can't all be bad, can it? Or should I say Cantu?

If he returns to 2005 form, that's an even bigger plus.

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm not saying that Cantu is going to become what he was in '05 but here is what he did that season at the age of 23.

.286/.311/.497/.808 40 2B ; 28 HR ; 117 RBI

He is younger than Brandon Phillips and here is what Phillips line would be this season extended to 155 games.

.280/.326/.480/.806 24 2B ; 30 HR ; 93 RBI

Most everyone has been saying Phillips is the 2nd best 2nd baseman in the league this season. Well, WK might be trying to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Phillips is incredibly better on the defensive side but...

I still think you trade Gonzalez if at all possible in the winter and move Phillips to SS. Cantu would then be an option at 2B.

WVRedsFan
07-28-2007, 05:58 PM
Low-risk, high reward - depending on who we gave up. Buying low is correct.

Another potential pluck like Ross, Ross, Phillips, etc.

Yeah, that Ross move really has turned out well for the offense, no? Of course, we didn't give up anything for him, right?

"throw it on the wall and see if it sticks..." - Wayne Krivsky

camisadelgolf
07-28-2007, 05:59 PM
If Cantu can put together a great second half, he should make great trade bait (or make Encarnacion trade bait). I think Saarloos-for-Cantu would be great. I have enough faith in Wayne to think that whoever Way-K traded is going to make it work out for the Reds because I keep in mind things like the fact that the Reds had Womack, Aurilia, FeLo, and Freel on the roster when they traded for Brandon Phillips.

indy_dave00
07-28-2007, 06:00 PM
Appears perhaps Reds feel with Medlock's struggles at Louisville 2-1 5.63 era , 16 innings , 17 hits , 14 walks ,17 strikeouts , that he may have reached his limit as a AA/AAA pitcher .

camisadelgolf
07-28-2007, 06:01 PM
The Reds don't need Medlock. They already have Coutlangus, Coffey, Majewski, Bray, Burton, Salmon, McBeth, Guevara, Pelland, etc.

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 06:04 PM
I'm really not understanding why most people are worried about losing Medlock. He is a 25 year old righty who just now made it to AAA and has been hit hard since getting there.

If it is Shack and Medlock the Reds aren't losing out on much at all imo.

WVRedsFan
07-28-2007, 06:04 PM
The Reds don't need Medlock. They already have Coutlangus, Coffey, Majewski, Bray, Burton, Salmon, McBeth, Guevara, Pelland, etc.

True. And in that list, they don't need Majewski either (and some others), but we have him and still pin a hope on him.

Wonder if we could steal Brendan Harris away from them? Nah, no takebacks.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2007, 06:04 PM
I really don't care about Medlock or Shackelford anyways. I'll just jope that Cantu is used very scarcely. Even in his best years he could never got on base.

Considering he's limited to 1st due to his terrible defensive ability, he's about as bad an option as you will find at 1st. His power simply can't make up for his lack of on base abilty. Though GABP is a good fit for his abilities.

Johnny Footstool
07-28-2007, 06:04 PM
He's 25 years old, had a blockbuster 2005 season, and won't get squat in arbitration next season.

He's a good buy-low candidate. Can't walk to save his life, though.

jojo
07-28-2007, 06:06 PM
He's 25 years old, had a blockbuster 2005 season, and won't get squat in arbitration next season.

He's a good buy-low candidate. Can't walk to save his life, though.

Cant catch either.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2007, 06:07 PM
The Reds don't need Medlock. They already have Coutlangus, Coffey, Majewski, Bray, Burton, Salmon, McBeth, Guevara, Pelland, etc.

I don't know about that but Shackelford gets LH's out extremely well. But it's a deal I would do. Why not? After looking at his statistics I can live with it, at least through the end of the season. He definitely isn't a great defender and his K/BB ratio is pretty much atrocious, but his power in this lineup and park say directly behind Dunn is interesting.

mth123
07-28-2007, 06:08 PM
The Reds don't need Medlock. They already have Coutlangus, Coffey, Majewski, Bray, Burton, Salmon, McBeth, Guevara, Pelland, etc.

Yeah, but the idea is to have numbers to sort through. Many of these guys will flame out. I'd rather have Medlock than Cantu, but I'm ok with Cantu as the 25th guy for now. Castro goes back on the DL and maybe Cantu takes a step forward out of the AL East and into GABP. If his presence lets WK feel better about pulling the trigger on a more significant deal (relatively) involving Conine or Freel then its a positive. Medlock was too much to pay. Maybe the Reds get Dukes as a PTBNL.;)

WVRedsFan
07-28-2007, 06:10 PM
Wonder when we can expect the deal including Conine and/or Hatteberg to be announced?

Many have mentioned this deal is a clue that Edwin is getting traded. Excuse me, but I don't get it. I can see one of the 2 first sackers getting traded over this, but not Edwin.

Mainspark
07-28-2007, 06:12 PM
From MLB.com a week ago....

The Rays sent Jorge Cantu down to Triple-A Durham on Thursday (July 19), perhaps signaling the end of the 25-year-old's time with the Devil Rays. Tampa Bay's 2005 MVP was extremely upset when he didn't make the roster out of Spring Training, but he didn't do much to help his cause after he was called up nearly three months ago. Cantu was hitting .207 (12-for-58) at the time of his demotion, and he made it clear he doesn't want to come back to Tampa Bay. He said he'd talk with his agent before he reports to Durham.

"It's clear enough that I have no business here, so it's time to go," he said. "Obviously, the team is going in a different direction and sometimes you don't fit in their plans and that's the way it goes. I'm sure there's somebody out there who will really appreciate what I've done here."

Look for Cantu to find a home somewhere with a team gambling that a change of scenery will turn Cantu's season around. His situation parallels that of Vinny Castilla's in 2001. Castilla was hitting .215 with two homers and nine RBIs when the Devil Rays released the third baseman in May that year. Castilla signed with Houston, where he hit .270 with 23 homers and 82 RBIs to help the Astros reach the playoffs.

mth123
07-28-2007, 06:14 PM
Wonder when we can expect the deal including Conine and/or Hatteberg to be announced?

Many have mentioned this deal is a clue that Edwin is getting traded. Excuse me, but I don't get it. I can see one of the 2 first sackers getting traded over this, but not Edwin.

Maybe Cantu's ability to play a crummy 2B coupled with Hopper's speed and ability to take bad routes in the OF will let WK let go of Freel. Some one needs to get picked-off a little more to fill the void, but Phillips seems to have stepped up in that area this season.

TOBTTReds
07-28-2007, 06:14 PM
How about everyone criticizes this move as if it is a blockbuster or the deal that WK thinks will turn around the team? That would be new around here.

If this is the only move WK does, then I would be upset. But you have to put the ball on the tee, before you can hit it.

RedLegSuperStar
07-28-2007, 06:15 PM
Wonder when we can expect the deal including Conine and/or Hatteberg to be announced?

Many have mentioned this deal is a clue that Edwin is getting traded. Excuse me, but I don't get it. I can see one of the 2 first sackers getting traded over this, but not Edwin.

Minnesota might offer up Baker or Slowey for Encarnacion.

I Like the Cantu move though.. in GABP he could put up some decent numbers.. like said.. low risk.. high reward.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2007, 06:16 PM
OK, I'll bite --

Why is a team over 10 games back in the race, with barely a pulse this time 2 weeks ago, out there in talent acquisition mode?

At a position they have 2 veterans currently and one "future star" in AAA?

Giving up potential help (not that Medlock has been shown anything but disdain from this administration) in the spot where they most need it -- the bullpen -- from the minors?

Acquiring a guy who, outside of a great year in 2005, really doesn't bring any outstanding talents to the ballclub?

I mean -- I'm not upset with acquiring Cantu or giving up Shack and Medlock, but I'm just baffled by why Krivsky even wasted time picking up the phone to make the deal? This screams "motion for the sake of motion" to me.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2007, 06:21 PM
Who here has enjoyed Jeff Conine scuffling to a .737 OPS this season?

Well that's Jorge Cantu at his best.

During Cantu's best season (2005) he had a RC/27 of 4.95. Currently this season, Conine has a number of 5.00.

So basically, if this move turns out perfectly, we have Jeff Conine. And it's very, very likely that he will underperform that number.

It would be different if I thought Cantu could play a passable 2nd base, I could live with his power and poor on base abilities (much like Phillips and his great glove). But he can't play 2nd. He's limited to 1st IMO.

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 06:23 PM
Another buy low deal from Krivsky. The guy craves them;)

Falls City Beer
07-28-2007, 06:24 PM
This really isn't a big deal. He'll likely be better bench help than anything that currently exists in the Reds' system.

mth123
07-28-2007, 06:25 PM
OK, I'll bite --

Why is a team over 10 games back in the race, with barely a pulse this time 2 weeks ago, out there in talent acquisition mode?

At a position they have 2 veterans currently and one "future star" in AAA?

Giving up potential help (not that Medlock has been shown anything but disdain from this administration) in the spot where they most need it -- the bullpen -- from the minors?

Acquiring a guy who, outside of a great year in 2005, really doesn't bring any outstanding talents to the ballclub?

I mean -- I'm not upset with acquiring Cantu or giving up Shack and Medlock, but I'm just baffled by why Krivsky even wasted time picking up the phone to make the deal? This screams "motion for the sake of motion" to me.


Agree somewhat.

I think Cantu is a decent gamble. Right Park for him and the move from the AL East has to help him. Many questioned why Phillips was needed when the Reds already had Aurilia, Freel and Womack competing at 2B, and wondered why Hatte with Pena LF and Dunn at 1B. Almost everyone said the Josh Hamilton move was a publicity stunt. I personally am always for the Reds getting under 25 talent that may be able to play a role for cheap.

I do agree that Medlock looks like a major overpayment and I am upset by that. Cantu was so far out of the picture that a Saarloos or Shack alone should have gotten him.

Medlock likely turns into nothing but I wouldn't deal him for a reclamation project given the Reds need to audition for help in the pen. Guys in Cantu's situation are usually picked up for cash or 30 something minor leaguers.

flyer85
07-28-2007, 06:26 PM
He is a hacker that should only play against LHP. He has no on base skills. He should only bat low in the order.

Kinda leaves with ... blah.

oneupper
07-28-2007, 06:26 PM
Silly Question. Can we stick Cantu in AAA and have him as "injury reserve."

Could we be sending Cantu in a package deal to the Mets or Phillies?

DoogMinAmo
07-28-2007, 06:26 PM
Another buy low deal from Krivsky. The guy craves them;)

Exactly.

To me the fact that this is a deadline deal is sheer coincidence. Personally, I like the fact that he has his pulse on the buy low market at all times.

CE, shouldnt a GM always be in talent aquisition mode?

guttle11
07-28-2007, 06:27 PM
Juan Castro isn't going to replace himself, people!!! :help:

Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 06:27 PM
Who here has enjoyed Jeff Conine scuffling to a .737 OPS this season?

Well that's Jorge Cantu at his best.

During Cantu's best season (2005) he had a RC/27 of 4.95. Currently this season, Conine has a number of 5.00.

So basically, if this move turns out perfectly, we have Jeff Conine. And it's very, very likely that he will underperform that number.

It would be different if I thought Cantu could play a passable 2nd base, I could live with his power and poor on base abilities (much like Phillips and his great glove). But he can't play 2nd. He's limited to 1st IMO.

I've been ok with Jeff Conine, just not where they bat him the order. He needs to be lower.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2007, 06:28 PM
Who here has enjoyed Jeff Conine scuffling to a .737 OPS this season?

Well that's Jorge Cantu at his best.

During Cantu's best season (2005) he had a RC/27 of 4.95. Currently this season, Conine has a number of 5.00.

So basically, if this move turns out perfectly, we have Jeff Conine. And it's very, very likely that he will underperform that number.

It would be different if I thought Cantu could play a passable 2nd base, I could live with his power and poor on base abilities (much like Phillips and his great glove). But he can't play 2nd. He's limited to 1st IMO.


But he's 16 yrs younger and probably about 1.5 mill cheaper overall.

Redny
07-28-2007, 06:31 PM
Lancaster has it, sort of....

http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/sports/comments/rays-deal-cantu-to-reds/

mth123
07-28-2007, 06:32 PM
So. Have we gotten anything official yet? The report form Keymastur (apparantly an insider type who lists his location as "it's a secret") is the only place I've sen anything about who the Reds gave up.

TOBTTReds
07-28-2007, 06:35 PM
The Rays are really starting to move the parts that didn’t fit here.

On the heels of last night’s Seth McClung deal, two sources have confirmed that Jorge Cantu is on his way to the Reds for a couple of minor-league pitchers—believed to be lefty Brian Shackelford and right-hander Calvin Medlock.



I would be furious if they trade Medlock for Cantu, even if it was straight up. I know he has struggled at AAA, but still.

I don't see WK giving up possible bullpen help for this.

vaticanplum
07-28-2007, 06:35 PM
OK, I'll bite --

Why is a team over 10 games back in the race, with barely a pulse this time 2 weeks ago, out there in talent acquisition mode?

At a position they have 2 veterans currently and one "future star" in AAA?

Giving up potential help (not that Medlock has been shown anything but disdain from this administration) in the spot where they most need it -- the bullpen -- from the minors?

Acquiring a guy who, outside of a great year in 2005, really doesn't bring any outstanding talents to the ballclub?

I mean -- I'm not upset with acquiring Cantu or giving up Shack and Medlock, but I'm just baffled by why Krivsky even wasted time picking up the phone to make the deal? This screams "motion for the sake of motion" to me.

Because he's available, and he's young. The veterans won't be here very long and if the triple Aers pan out, they can flip him.

I watched Cantu play a fair amount against the Yankees for a couple of years. he really does have talent. I wouldn't expect great things of him, nor do I think krivsky is currently trying to acquire anyone from whom he expects great things. But I've bemoaned the lack of this team's bench all season and this is a good help for that. I think it's a totally fine low-key move. As long as they don't start pinch hitting him for hamilton when he comes back.

Buckeye33
07-28-2007, 06:37 PM
I would be furious if they trade Medlock for Cantu, even if it was straight up. I know he has struggled at AAA, but still.

I don't see WK giving up possible bullpen help for this.

Can you explain why you would be so furious over losing a 25 year old righthanded pitcher who just now made it to AAA? And has been hit hard in that brief time at AAA?

RedsManRick
07-28-2007, 06:38 PM
I have an idea. Let's trade for a disgruntled underacheiving middle infielder who can't get on base and swings for the fences every time. I'm guessing Krvisky thinks he found Brandon Phillips v 2.0.

All we had to give up were two pitchers who could likely contribute on the big league level. good thing we don't need any strikeout guys in the pen.

Always Red
07-28-2007, 06:38 PM
Lancaster has it, sort of....

http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/sports/comments/rays-deal-cantu-to-reds/

He's reporting to Louisville, if you read what Marc wrote...

No need to panic. Looks like a good candidate to ride the AAA shuttle for a while, if need be.

Shack and Medlock were both done in this organization; they were simply swapped for someone who was done in Tampa's org.

This is a yawner, IMHO. Waste of time? It probably took about 30 minutes out of both GM's day...

Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 06:39 PM
The OFFICIAL move...

Cantu, OF Sean Cumberland (AA) and future considerations, for Calvin Medlock and Brian Shackelford.

There may be cash involved in some direction as well....but that's the bulk of it.

RedsManRick
07-28-2007, 06:40 PM
Can you explain why you would be so furious over losing a 25 year old righthanded pitcher who just now made it to AAA? And has been hit hard in that brief time at AAA?

12 AAA IP isn't much of a sample size. However, in his career he has a 9.57 K/9 and 3.63 K/BB. And he's not 25 until November.

Uggh.

But hey we did get a .718 career OPS 24 AA OF too. If I didn't know any better, I'd think Bowden was still in charge.

Puffy
07-28-2007, 06:43 PM
Krivsky showing his penchant once again - pick up cheap guys with one discerible skill who have no idea how to take a walk.

Seriously, if it weren't for Junior and Dunn (who were here before Krivsky and are the big "power bats") and Hatteberg (the only guy Krivsky has picked up in his time here who takes walks on any consistent basis, although Conine is patient enough I guess, but hatteberg and Conine are old guys here to hold serve, not young talent) we could potentially ultimately challege for all time lowest OBP. Honestly, think about the guys that are on the block - Hatteberg, EdE, Griffey and Dunn.

mth123
07-28-2007, 06:44 PM
Cumberland was the #29 prospect in TB org according to BA prior to the season. His numbers in AA are ugly. He's considered "toolsy" FWIW. Looks like filler.

Doc. Scott
07-28-2007, 06:44 PM
Shaun Cumberland, 22, was the Rays' 10th-round pick in the 2003 draft out of a Florida high school. Older brother of Drew Cumberland, a shortstop who was picked in the sandwich round this year by San Diego.

This year he hit .246/.303/.347 with AA Montgomery. Last year, he hit .258/.319/.396 with High-A Visalia with 16 homers and 29 steals. Left-handed batter, 6'3"/180#.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Shaun-Cumberland.shtml

Tools alert! But he's still young, and could get better. Results haven't been great so far.

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 06:45 PM
Krivsky showing his penchant once again - pick up cheap guys with one discerible skill who have no idea how to take a walk.

Seriously, if it weren't for Junior and Dunn (who were here before Krivsky and are the big "power bats") and Hatteberg (the only guy Krivsky has picked up in his time here who takes walks on any consistent basis, although Conine is patient enough I guess, but hatteberg and Conine are old guys here to hold serve, not young talent) we could potentially ultimately challege for all time lowest OBP. Honestly, think about the guys that are on the block - Hatteberg, EdE, Griffey and Dunn.


You must not have read much on Krivsky, hardly surprising and expected. He comes from a toolsy ideology and organization.

Doc. Scott
07-28-2007, 06:46 PM
...and you guys are overreacting about Medlock, I think. Both he and Shackleford are fringy and the Reds have decent depth in relievers at the moment. Dime a dozen. I'm not saying Calvin's worthless, but I don't think he'll help Tampa Bay more than Cantu could possibly help the Reds.

I like Coutlangus over Shackleford- he's several years younger and is better at missing bats. Yeah, Jon has some control issues, but so did Brian. In a LOOGY, I think it's worth a higher chance of a walk for a good chance at a strikeout.

Good for Calvin in that he's going to get a chance in TB that's likely more substantial than what he'd get here.

Cantu has holes in his game- plate discipline, defense, etc.- but he's exactly the type of guy you buy low on.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2007, 06:53 PM
CE, shouldnt a GM always be in talent aquisition mode?

Yeah -- but this trade really strikes me as not so much "talent acquisition" as it does "talent shuffling."

They gave up a couple of guys I wasn't too high on to get a guy I'm not too high on. I suppose the biggest uspide I see to Cantu is RH pop off the bench once Conine leaves town. Otherwise, he lacks defensive versatility (which you want to see in a bench player) and doesn't seem to enjoy getting put on base for free.

I'm not mad about this deal -- certainly I'm not going to miss the bits they're trading away -- but I'm not excited about it either.

jojo
07-28-2007, 06:53 PM
Krivsky showing his penchant once again - pick up cheap guys with one discerible skill who have no idea how to take a walk.

Seriously, if it weren't for Junior and Dunn (who were here before Krivsky and are the big "power bats") and Hatteberg (the only guy Krivsky has picked up in his time here who takes walks on any consistent basis, although Conine is patient enough I guess, but hatteberg and Conine are old guys here to hold serve, not young talent) we could potentially ultimately challege for all time lowest OBP. Honestly, think about the guys that are on the block - Hatteberg, EdE, Griffey and Dunn.

Didn't you read moneyball? OPB is overvalued by the market now. Strikeouts though....they're bargain basement... :cool:

fearofpopvol1
07-28-2007, 06:54 PM
I have an idea. Let's trade for a disgruntled underacheiving middle infielder who can't get on base and swings for the fences every time. I'm guessing Krvisky thinks he found Brandon Phillips v 2.0.

All we had to give up were two pitchers who could likely contribute on the big league level. good thing we don't need any strikeout guys in the pen.

If you may recall, Brandon Phillips was labeled similarly before coming over to the Reds. Sometimes a change of scenery isn't such a bad thing you know...

Anyway, I like the move. Not really a big deal, but could be one of those diamonds in the rough (low risk, high reward). We need some power off the bench. It could also signal that Conine/Hatte (or both) are on their way out.

RedsManRick
07-28-2007, 06:54 PM
Cantu has holes in his game- plate discipline, defense, etc.- but he's exactly the type of guy you buy low on.

Can you expound on that point? Will his defense improve? Will he learn to take a walk?

If I had to guess, I be we see Krivsky trade away EE to the Twins and install Cantu at 3rd...

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2007, 06:56 PM
If you may recall, Brandon Phillips was labeled similarly before coming over to the Reds. Sometimes a change of scenery isn't such a bad thing you know...

Agreed and it appears both Cantu and Cumberland were more productive players away as opposed to home, especially Cumberland.

indy_dave00
07-28-2007, 06:59 PM
I have no problem sending Jorge Cantu up to pinch hit before Chad Moeller. Moeller has been up 3 weeks 1 at bat. Cantu might actually hit a little off the bench.

Doc. Scott
07-28-2007, 07:00 PM
Can you expound on that point? Will his defense improve? Will he learn to take a walk?

If I had to guess, I be we see Krivsky trade away EE to the Twins and install Cantu at 3rd...

Well, geez, dude- I have no idea. It's all a wager, isn't it?

I don't think it's the world's greatest trade, but it doesn't bother me much.

redsfan30
07-28-2007, 07:00 PM
A 25 year old with a 28 homer, 117 RBI season already under his belt for Brian Shackelford and what appears to be a very over-valued Calvin Medlock looks like a very good deal for the Reds to make.

This looks like a deal that could go in the Brandon Phillips category a year from now.

mth123
07-28-2007, 07:00 PM
Here is the best case with Cantu IMO. He's a guy who had a pretty good season from a power standpoint in 2005. At GABP, he could show good power again. The BB world declares that he's back and somehow somebody wants him and gives up something useful. This could be a shine 'em up and ship 'em out move. If not, he can hardly be a worse option than the bench guys who have been here in 2007.

I just think giving up Medlock was unnecessary.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2007, 07:03 PM
If not, he can hardly be a worse option than the bench guys who have been here in 2007.

This bench has zilch power. I mean: NONE. I actually like this move.

Caveat Emperor
07-28-2007, 07:07 PM
This bench has zilch power. I mean: NONE. I actually like this move.

Especially none from the RH side of the plate -- which was something everyone and their brother identified as a massive deficiency with this team before Spring Training even started.

mth123
07-28-2007, 07:08 PM
This bench has zilch power. I mean: NONE. I actually like this move.

I like getting Cantu as well.

My analogy is that Medlock is like a quarter. A quarter isn't much money and you can call me a tightwad, but I'll be darned if I pay a quarter for something that should only cost a a dime. Given Cantu's status in TB, a dime is all that should have been offered and a quarter is overpaying.

Perhaps Cumberland equates to more change back from my quarter than I expect.

pedro
07-28-2007, 07:08 PM
I think this move is OK. I gives the Reds some more organization depth in the infield which is something they don't have a ton of. At least in the high minors.

Mario-Rijo
07-28-2007, 07:11 PM
From C. Trent


Saturday, July 28, 2007
trade

Reds get Jorge Cantu from DRays. More to come

Here's the official release:



CINCINNATI - Cincinnati Reds executive vice president and general manager Wayne Krivsky today announced the acquisition of IF Jorge Cantu, OF Shaun Cumberland and cash from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays in exchange for RHP Calvin Medlock, LHP Brian Shackelford and future considerations.



Cantu, who is on the 40-man roster, will be optioned to Class AAA Louisville. The Bats and Tampa Bay's Durham affiliate are scheduled to play a doubleheader tonight at Louisville Slugger Field. Cumberland will be assigned to Class AA Chattanooga.



Cantu, 25, in 2005 produced a club-record 117 RBI and was named the Devil Rays' Most Valuable Player by the local chapter of the Baseball Writers' Association of America. He led the Major Leagues by driving in 21.1 percent of the baserunners he inherited, and his RBI total that season was the most by an American League player prior to the age of 24 since 22-year-old Alex Rodriguez had 124 RBI in 1998.



This season, Cantu appeared in 25 games for Tampa Bay and 23 games for Durham.



Cumberland, 22, was selected by the Devil Rays in the 10th round of the June 2003 first-year player draft. In his first professional season he was named Princeton's Player of the Year and in 2006 he produced 16 HR and 98 RBI at Southwest Michigan. Cumberland has spent this season at Class AA Montgomery, where in 99 games he hit .246 with 6 HR an 34 RBI.






I haven't talked to Wayne, but have talked to Cantu's agent. Cantu is expected to just trade dugouts because the Durham Bulls are in Louisville. Cantu has played all the infield positions, but I would guess this means a move of Conine. The Devil Rays gave up on him at second and had him playing more first. His agent said he has played some outfield, but I wouldn't expect that. It'll be interesting to see if he's in the Bats' lineup tonight and if so, where.

lollipopcurve
07-28-2007, 07:13 PM
RH pop off the bench from a guy who can move around the infield a little. Gives the team something it lacked in exchange for surplus bullpen prospects. Makes sense to me.

Always Red
07-28-2007, 07:14 PM
If I had to guess, I be we see Krivsky trade away EE to the Twins and install Cantu at 3rd...

Not likely, Cantu's fielding pct at 3B (.914) makes EE look like a Gold Glover...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cantujo01.shtml

jojo
07-28-2007, 07:15 PM
Here is the best case with Cantu IMO. He's a guy who had a pretty good season from a power standpoint in 2005. At GABP, he could show good power again. The BB world declares that he's back and somehow somebody wants him and gives up something useful. This could be a shine 'em up and ship 'em out move. If not, he can hardly be a worse option than the bench guys who have been here in 2007.

I just think giving up Medlock was unnecessary.

To me this is a meh deal.... best case scenario, he rebounds offensively but gives a decent chunk of it back to the opposition with his fish out of the water leather. He's an atrocious fielder at any position he's played. During his best season, 2005, he had 95 RC. He probably easily gave back 20-25 runs with his putrid defense between 2b and 3b (he's rated off-the-charts bad by both UZR and PMR). His VORP was 31 that season. Factoring in his defense, he wasn't really that much of an advantage over replacement.

So in short, even if he has a rebound year with his bat, he's likely to give most of it back to the opposition. Worst case scenario-he gets significant playing time but doesn't rebound significantly with his bat and represents a huge black hole.

This is not a player that you can view without the context of his glove. His 2005 was a mirage concerning actual worth.

If he's the new pinch hitter for the Reds, wohoo, they just marginally improved by by addressing 100 PA's.

I'm not trashing the move. I just don't see it as a big deal impact-wise.

indy_dave00
07-28-2007, 07:18 PM
Jorge Cantu is dh'ing batting 2nd for Louisville tonight.

RedLegSuperStar
07-28-2007, 07:19 PM
If they think he will play 1B.. what does that say about Votto?

westofyou
07-28-2007, 07:19 PM
For crying out loud. Our GM is a madman.

Medlock? Wow.

Rant much?

TOBTTReds
07-28-2007, 07:24 PM
Can you explain why you would be so furious over losing a 25 year old righthanded pitcher who just now made it to AAA? And has been hit hard in that brief time at AAA?

OK, that was an overreaction on my part. I still am not happy with giving away Medlock. Also, like you said, it's only been a brief time in AAA, and his control was his problem there, wereas it wasn't elsewhere. I've been watching Medlock since Dayton and he is one of those guys I just root for.

mth123
07-28-2007, 07:29 PM
To me this is a meh deal.... best case scenario, he rebounds offensively but gives a decent chunk of it back to the opposition with his fish out of the water leather. He's an atrocious fielder at any position he's played. During his best season, 2005, he had 95 RC. He probably easily gave back 20-25 runs with his putrid defense between 2b and 3b (he's rated off-the-charts bad by both UZR and PMR). His VORP was 31 that season. Factoring in his defense, he wasn't really that much of an advantage over replacement.

So in short, even if he has a rebound year with his bat, he's likely to give most of it back to the opposition. Worst case scenario-he gets significant playing time but doesn't rebound significantly with his bat and represents a huge black hole.

This is not a player that you can view without the context of his glove. His 2005 was a mirage concerning actual worth.

If he's the new pinch hitter for the Reds, wohoo, they just marginally improved by by addressing 100 PA's.

I'm not trashing the move. I just don't see it as a big deal impact-wise.

I just think that GMs are perpetually looking for offense at defensive spots. The old saying goes "shake a tree and 10 gloves fall out, but guys who can hit are hard to find." I agree with you about his defense, I just think some GM will give up something for an offensive boost.

Of course he has to regain enough with the bat in what is a probably very limited opportunity to catch some one's eye for that to work. I'm happy if it just gives Wk the comfort level to move Conine if that is what is needed. (Personally I'd play Keppinger there against LH even for a year or two after Votto takes over.)

Wheelhouse
07-28-2007, 07:32 PM
Sometimes the shots at Krivsky are really bewildering. We got a 24-year old player who was an MVP of a Major League team which included Rocco Baldelli and Carl Crawford in 2005 and a 23 year old AA outfielder with speed and some pop and CASH for two guys that were going absolutely NOWHERE with this organization. There is immense upside for this trade for the Reds. If nothing happens, we didn't lose much. I don't get how anyone can not like this trade.

Highlifeman21
07-28-2007, 07:33 PM
Lancaster has it, sort of....

http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/sports/comments/rays-deal-cantu-to-reds/

So lemme get this straight.

Cantu is/was on Durham's roster. Louisville (Cantu's new team) is hosting Durham.

I guess Medlock and Cantu probably just switched uniforms then. And maybe jersey numbers.

jojo
07-28-2007, 07:35 PM
Sometimes the shots at Krivsky are really bewildering. We got a 24-year old player who was an MVP of a Major League team which included Rocco Baldelli and Carl Crawford in 2005 and a 23 year old AA outfielder with speed and some pop and CASH for two guys that were going absolutely NOWHERE with this organization. There is immense upside for this trade for the Reds. If nothing happens, we didn't lose much. I don't get how anyone can not like this trade.

There really isn't huge upside here. Upside is somewhere around potentially useful IMHO.

vaticanplum
07-28-2007, 07:36 PM
So lemme get this straight.

Cantu is/was on Durham's roster. Louisville (Cantu's new team) is hosting Durham.

I guess Medlock and Cantu probably just switched uniforms then. And maybe jersey numbers.

I can see the billboard now: Cincinnati Reds - a very bad organization, but not a wholly inefficient one.

smith288
07-28-2007, 07:37 PM
Sometimes the shots at Krivsky are really bewildering. We got a 24-year old player who was an MVP of a Major League team which included Rocco Baldelli and Carl Crawford in 2005 and a 23 year old AA outfielder with speed and some pop and CASH for two guys that were going absolutely NOWHERE with this organization. There is immense upside for this trade for the Reds. If nothing happens, we didn't lose much. I don't get how anyone can not like this trade.
Psuedo rep points...

jojo
07-28-2007, 07:39 PM
So lemme get this straight.

Cantu is/was on Durham's roster. Louisville (Cantu's new team) is hosting Durham.

I guess Medlock and Cantu probably just switched uniforms then. And maybe jersey numbers.

Cantu's pants would probably be a little long for Medlock... :D

icehole3
07-28-2007, 07:39 PM
Sometimes the shots at Krivsky are really bewildering. We got a 24-year old player who was an MVP of a Major League team which included Rocco Baldelli and Carl Crawford in 2005 and a 23 year old AA outfielder with speed and some pop and CASH for two guys that were going absolutely NOWHERE with this organization. There is immense upside for this trade for the Reds. If nothing happens, we didn't lose much. I don't get how anyone can not like this trade.

I agree, those pitchers were minimal loses and we've got a few more fringe minor league pitchers if TB wants them...TB's minors are more than likely better than ours at this point in time.

Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 07:43 PM
To give Wayne some credit....his best moves (except Arroyo) has been getting position players for very little.

Why can't that continue?

Always Red
07-28-2007, 07:54 PM
But, RMR, since you've got me thinking about it (not to change the subject), but how do you feel about BP at 3B? He's got the bat for the position. I'm not saying Cantu will play 2B, but everyone talks about BP playing SS. What about 3B, and find another 2B (easier to find?).

Just thinking out loud here.

Ltlabner
07-28-2007, 07:56 PM
Yeah, that Ross move really has turned out well for the offense, no? Of course, we didn't give up anything for him, right?

Actually, while not a hall of fame carear, considering his defense and stellar caught stealing percentage I'm not ranking David Ross on the list of "big time drags on the offense" right now. As long as he keeps crushing pitchers mistakes over the fence and batting 8th I'm generally happy with his performance. His OBP sucks but his OPS just isn't going to be hot this year considering the miserable start he had.


AB R HR RBI
247 27 15 33

As far as this Cantu move. Torn. If he's a bench guy low end sorta player that's one thing. If he's touted as a stud right hand bat that's another. It look right now that he's an improvement to the bench. If it pushes a Castro or Moller asside I'm fine with it.

flyer85
07-28-2007, 07:58 PM
Actually, while not a hall of fame carear, considering his defense and stellar caught stealing percentage I'm not ranking David Ross on the list of "big time drags on the offense" right now. As long as he keeps crushing pitchers mistakes over the fence and batting 8th I'm generally happy with his performance. His OBP sucks but his OPS just isn't going to be hot this year considering the miserable start he had.


AB R HR RBI
247 27 15 33

As far as this Cantu move. Torn. If he's a bench guy low end sorta player that's one thing. If he's touted as a stud right hand bat that's another. It look right now that he's an improvement to the bench. If it pushes a Castro or Moller asside I'm fine with it.The reason Cantu got upset with TB was because he lost his starting role. He wants to be an everyday player.

SteelSD
07-28-2007, 08:00 PM
I'm all for throwing things at walls to see if they stick. But if the price is a potentially serviceable relief pitcher (Medlock) when the team is in desperate need of serviceable relief pitchers, then I've just got to wonder. Cantu must look better in jeans. Shrug.

redsfan30
07-28-2007, 08:04 PM
There really isn't huge upside here. Upside is somewhere around potentially useful IMHO.

You don't see potential upside to this deal???

Wow. Just...wow.

indy_dave00
07-28-2007, 08:06 PM
Cantu has already batted twice tonite for Louisville in first game of double headder. Singled to center in the first grounded to ss to end 2nd he is the DH.

Always Red
07-28-2007, 08:09 PM
You don't see potential upside to this deal???

Wow. Just...wow.

Well, I don't see a downside, either.

Shack is better known for things other than pitching, and Medlock could not beat out Burton, Salmon, Saarloos, or even Gary Majewski. Also, Calvin is 25, old for a phenom, which he is not.

This is simply a swap of players who were stuck in their prospective systems, in an effort to get all of them back on track.

Most likely, none of these guys (even Cantu) will ever again make a real difference on the MLB level.

flyer85
07-28-2007, 08:09 PM
You don't see potential upside to this deal???
some upside. For the most part he is a player without a position because his 2b/3b defense is atrocious and his bat won't play well at 1b.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2007, 08:18 PM
The upside is that he has some power and "can" play multiple positions. If he can get his 2005 numbers back in the fold, then he can be a useful spare part.

My beef is that he will always be overvalued by counting stats rather than actual offensive ability. So if he does regain his 2005 magic, I really fear that he's the type that will find undeserved playing time.

I really don't care about Medlock and Shack, as really don't think much of either player. Medlock may eventually make the bigs, but I seriously doubt he's ever the least bit effective. It's an exchange of spare parts. My concern is that Cantu is used in the wrong role over more deserving players.

Wheelhouse
07-28-2007, 08:22 PM
There really isn't huge upside here. Upside is somewhere around potentially useful IMHO.

I think if he were to replicate his 2005 numbers, and given he's 24 there is the possibility of bettering them, that would be an enormous upside. If he has a season where he is essentially a bench player and hits 12-15 HRs and plays 1B, 2B and 3B that is still a rich amount of ML output vs. what they are trading. I think it's a pretty good move.

Question: do you think Hamilton chimed in favor of Cantu?

redsmetz
07-28-2007, 08:24 PM
The upside is that he has some power and "can" play multiple positions. If he can get his 2005 numbers back in the fold, then he can be a useful spare part.

My beef is that he will always be overvalued by counting stats rather than actual offensive ability. So if he does regain his 2005 magic, I really fear that he's the type that will find undeserved playing time.

I really don't care about Medlock and Shack, as really don't think much of either player. Medlock may eventually make the bigs, but I seriously doubt he's ever the least bit effective. It's an exchange of spare parts. My concern is that Cantu is used in the wrong role over more deserving players.

Well it is a little problematic to ask production from a player at their previous peak level without giving them playing time. That's been a conundrum for a while, right?

deltachi8
07-28-2007, 08:24 PM
yawn....

Ltlabner
07-28-2007, 08:25 PM
Maybe they hope to move Hatte and Conine both. Platton Votto and Cantu next year unless and until Votto takes off at 1B and pushes Cantu into a full time bench job?

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 08:26 PM
Votto is the anti-Cantu.

mth123
07-28-2007, 08:27 PM
Maybe they hope to move Hatte and Conine both. Platton Votto and Cantu next year unless and until Votto takes off at 1B and pushes Cantu into a full time bench job?

I think that is likely. Or Votto goes to LF with Dunn moved (I hope not) and Hatte and Cantu platoon.

Patrick Bateman
07-28-2007, 08:28 PM
But he's 16 yrs younger and probably about 1.5 mill cheaper overall.

Either way, he's not a particularly good player, and he's likely to find his fair share of at-bats.

But remember, that's his upside for producton.

jojo
07-28-2007, 08:29 PM
You don't see potential upside to this deal???

Wow. Just...wow.

I posted an argument a little earlier about why I think Cantu isn't a high ceiling guy.

Basically he's a risky bat with a horrible glove.

Consider what Pecota thinks about Cantu's potential as a second baseman (they'll be lower if he plays third):

2008: PA: 532; VORP: 16.7;
2009: PA: 556; VORP: 16.2;
2010: PA: 543; VORP: 14.6;

Both UZR and PMR agree that his defense whether he's at second or third is off the charts atrocious (think of Lopez as a defensive upgrade over Cantu)

If Cantu actually gets that many PAs in a season, his glove will conservatively be expected to completely wipe out that VORP. Basically, considering his bat and glove, it's most likely he's the rough equivilent of replacement level.

Given his defensive deficiencies, he's pretty much got to perform above his 80-90th percentile projections to represent a tangible advantage to the Reds (i.e. and then were only talking in the range of roughly a win).

While possible, that's not really a definition of high upside in my mind.

RedLegSuperStar
07-28-2007, 08:31 PM
Maybe they hope to move Hatte and Conine both. Platton Votto and Cantu next year unless and until Votto takes off at 1B and pushes Cantu into a full time bench job?

I was thinking what if Gonzalez doesn't return the rest of this season.. move Phillips to SS, Cantu at 2B, deal Conine and/or Hatteberg and have Votto at 1B.

I would like to see this line-up..

Freel CF
Cantu 2B
Griffey RF
Phillips SS
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Ross C

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 08:31 PM
I think that is likely. Or Votto goes to LF with Dunn moved (I hope not) and Hatte and Cantu platoon.

The only problem with that is, Votto can't effectively play LF. The Reds wanted to dump Shack and Medlock, I think that is what to take from this move as sad as it seems.

mth123
07-28-2007, 08:37 PM
The only problem with that is, Votto can't effectively play LF. The Reds wanted to dump Shack and Medlock, I think that is what to take from this move as sad as it seems.

A seaon of winter ball could fix that. It's not like LF is a position of stellar defenders and the drop off from Dunn wouldn't be much if anything.

flyer85
07-28-2007, 08:38 PM
I was thinking what if Gonzalez doesn't return the rest of this season.. move Phillips to SS, Cantu at 2B, deal Conine and/or Hatteberg and have Votto at 1B.

I would like to see this line-up..

Freel CF
Cantu 2B
Griffey RF
Phillips SS
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Ross CCantu should never bat above 6th.

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 08:38 PM
A seaon of winter ball could fix that. It's not like LF is a position of stellar defenders and the drop off from Dunn wouldn't be much if anything.

I disagree. It won't fix it. He simply doesn't play the OF well. He is a 1st baseman by trade after being converted by catcher.

corkedbat
07-28-2007, 08:42 PM
My take?

Conine and Hatteburg are both dealt in the next month (if not the next 48 hours). Votto is the starter at 1st, Cantu is his RH backup, bat off the bench and a reserve infielder.

mth123
07-28-2007, 08:55 PM
I disagree. It won't fix it. He simply doesn't play the OF well. He is a 1st baseman by trade after being converted by catcher.

That may be true, but I see this ownership as more likely to pay Hatte $1.85 Million than Dunn $13 Million in 2008. I think the $ will make the decision and Votto will get a year out there until more cheap OF help arrives. I want Dunn signed to a long term deal, Hatte traded and Votto made the 1B for the foreseeable future, but I just don't think it will happen. I think they love Hatte (and I like him too but it doesn't make it the right move). Votto probably moves to 1B in 2009.

I haven't seen the commitment from ownership that they seemed to imply when they came aboard.

wheels
07-28-2007, 09:16 PM
This is as un-exciting as it gets.

Potential detritus in exchange for fodder.

I've already moved on.

Highlifeman21
07-28-2007, 09:21 PM
I can see the billboard now: Cincinnati Reds - a very bad organization, but not a wholly inefficient one.

Saving travel costs, but not passing on the savings to the fanbase!

I like this move. Shackelford and Medlock were AAAA bullpen guys at best, aka bullpen fodder.

Hopefully Cantu can be a better version of Juan Castro or Javier Valentin.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2007, 09:26 PM
My guess is that Medlock is like every other single arm in the Reds' minors: hyped like hell by folks on this board.

The Reds have ZERO pitching in their minors--Medlock's departure does nothing to change that.

wheels
07-28-2007, 09:31 PM
My guess is that Medlock is like every other single arm in the Reds' minors: hyped like hell by folks on this board.

The Reds have ZERO pitching in their minors--Medlock's departure does nothing to change that.


I'd have to agree with you.

Superdude
07-28-2007, 09:48 PM
I guess I don't mind taking a flyer on Cantu, but what Wayne plans on doing with him is the curious part of this deal. At least with Phillips, there was a spot open for him if things went well. I have no idea where Cantu fits in.

fearofpopvol1
07-28-2007, 09:48 PM
My guess is that Medlock is like every other single arm in the Reds' minors: hyped like hell by folks on this board.

The Reds have ZERO pitching in their minors--Medlock's departure does nothing to change that.

I really think Salmon is notable and could help our club. Beyond that though, I'd generally agree.

KronoRed
07-28-2007, 10:15 PM
Cant catch either.

So we just need to move to the AL:devil:

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 10:23 PM
My guess is that Medlock is like every other single arm in the Reds' minors: hyped like hell by folks on this board.

The Reds have ZERO pitching in their minors--Medlock's departure does nothing to change that.

Yawn, another FCB post with little behind it. Considering the Krivsky group AGREES with you on Medlock, I would speak my words lightly. He was never thought highly of and maybe there is a reason why, or maybe they just made a mis-evaluation. Only time will tell.

Falls City Beer
07-28-2007, 10:35 PM
Yawn, another FCB post with little behind it. Considering the Krivsky group AGREES with you on Medlock, I would speak my words lightly. He was never thought highly of and maybe there is a reason why, or maybe they just made a mis-evaluation. Only time will tell.

Oh lord, yeah--I'm sure Medlock's a real cog in the championship juggernaut.

Tom Servo
07-28-2007, 11:17 PM
I was working all day and this is the first I heard of the deal - I like it, a lot.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-28-2007, 11:37 PM
How many years of service does Cantu have? Please, please, don't compare this one to Phillips.

The guy is one comeback season away from pricing himself out of cheapy town, USA.

And Medlock? Yeah, he musta sucked cuz our brilliant GM thought he did.

No loss on Medlock. No biggie. Let's just keep trading regulars and thowing millions at middle relievers and ignore what we have/had (Medlock, Guevara, etc.).

Yeah, they must suck because Mr. master of the obvious genius Krvisky doesn't think they are worthy of a roster spot.

Meanwhile, he swaps middle relief garbage for middle relief garbage every other week with Louisville.

Damn genius that Krivsky.

Puffy
07-28-2007, 11:43 PM
You must not have read much on Krivsky, hardly surprising and expected. He comes from a toolsy ideology and organization.

Why mustn't I have read anything on Krivsky?? I knew this before he got here and was one of the few who hated the hiring. All I was doing was once again pointing it out. But thanks for the smart ass remark

But smart ass remarks are par for the course with you.

Aronchis
07-28-2007, 11:56 PM
Why mustn't I have read anything on Krivsky?? I knew this before he got here and was one of the few who hated the hiring. All I was doing was once again pointing it out. But thanks for the smart ass remark

But smart ass remarks are par for the course with you.

Your pleasure

paulrichjr
07-29-2007, 12:02 AM
Your pleasure

Hey!!!! Take this to the Sundeck!

GIK
07-29-2007, 12:24 AM
Keep this thread ON TOPIC, please.

VR
07-29-2007, 01:05 AM
Little disappointed RZ hasn't explored the potential word-play fun with Jorge.

That guy Jorge can't play first.

Tom Servo
07-29-2007, 01:09 AM
Little disappointed RZ hasn't explored the potential word-play fun with Jorge.

That guy Jorge can't play first.
Reds fan #1: Jorge can't hit!
Reds fan #2: CANTU!

VR
07-29-2007, 01:11 AM
Reds fan #1: Jorge can't hit!
Reds fan #2: CANTU!

No, he can't. What's his last name?

Spitball
07-29-2007, 01:27 AM
I thought this regime was about pitching and defense. I don't get this trade at all. Maybe Phillips is about to be traded for a potential number one starter. Otherwise, I'm left shaking my head.

fearofpopvol1
07-29-2007, 01:34 AM
I thought this regime was about pitching and defense. I don't get this trade at all. Maybe Phillips is about to be traded for a potential number one starter. Otherwise, I'm left shaking my head.

The thing is though, this isn't a big trade and the pitching that was traded was notable pitching. It's not like Bailey or Arroyo was traded.

MartyFan
07-29-2007, 01:55 AM
I would love to hear/read what TeamClark has to say about this deal...OH, TC????????????

redsrule2500
07-29-2007, 02:08 AM
When I saw "second baseman", I was scared Phillips would be gone soon....

Phhhl
07-29-2007, 02:10 AM
I think it's a good deal on the surface. Cantu is only 25, and despite his lack of discipline at the plate his 2005 season shows he has some skills as a hitter. GAB could be kind to him.

I liked Shack as a lefty specialist, but something happened to him in the eyes of the brass after he had that problem with the girl a couple years ago. He obviously wasn't going to get a chance here after that.

What I am iffy about is what it portends. If they view Cantu as insurance on a trade of Edwin, it's a bad sign. I don't see Cantu breaking this outfield or creating a platoon situation at first base either, especially with Bruce and Votto knocking on the door.

The only scenario that intrigues me is if Cantu were installed as the starting second baseman and Phillips were moved to short. But, that isn't happening with Gonzalez on a three year deal.

So, there you are... the good and the bad. But, I don't mind stockpiling 25 year old middle infielders who have shown they can hit.

MartyFan
07-29-2007, 03:15 AM
I think it's a good deal on the surface. Cantu is only 25, and despite his lack of discipline at the plate his 2005 season shows he has some skills as a hitter. GAB could be kind to him.

I liked Shack as a lefty specialist, but something happened to him in the eyes of the brass after he had that problem with the girl a couple years ago. He obviously wasn't going to get a chance here after that.

What I am iffy about is what it portends. If they view Cantu as insurance on a trade of Edwin, it's a bad sign. I don't see Cantu breaking this outfield or creating a platoon situation at first base either, especially with Bruce and Votto knocking on the door.

The only scenario that intrigues me is if Cantu were installed as the starting second baseman and Phillips were moved to short. But, that isn't happening with Gonzalez on a three year deal.

So, there you are... the good and the bad. But, I don't mind stockpiling 25 year old middle infielders who have shown they can hit.

I thought the same thing...the other thing I considered is how high BP's trade value must be right now and maybe HE is on the move?

Just wondering out loud with this.

But I also thought it opened the chance for EE to be moved, Cantu at 2B, BP to SS and AGon to 3B.

I am pretty certain AGon would be a D upgrade at 3B...also think BP would be OK at SS but I am really not familiar enough with Cantu to know what he would mean at 2B in that situation.

Big Klu
07-29-2007, 03:32 AM
Here's how I see Jorge Cantu.

Best case scenario: Rich Aurilia, Jr.
Worst case scenario: Better than Castro and Moeller, and more pop than anyone on our bench (provided Hamilton is starting)

mth123
07-29-2007, 08:25 AM
Here's how I see Jorge Cantu.

Best case scenario: Rich Aurilia, Jr.
Worst case scenario: Better than Castro and Moeller, and more pop than anyone on our bench (provided Hamilton is starting)

Rich Aurilia JR (w/o the ability to play SS but maybe a little OF thrown in) is a good thought. I hope he hits like Aurilia did in Cincy. I think Conine JR with more power might be a better comp.

Your worst case scenario is right on.

icehole3
07-29-2007, 08:45 AM
The only problem with that is, Votto can't effectively play LF. The Reds wanted to dump Shack and Medlock, I think that is what to take from this move as sad as it seems.

If Dunn can be put in LF then anyone can play LF, even my dead grandmother could play LF better than Dunn

:p:

westofyou
07-29-2007, 11:20 AM
If Dunn can be put in LF then anyone can play LF, even my dead grandmother could play LF better than Dunn

:p:
Intelligent Reds talk for intelligent Reds fans.

Matt700wlw
07-29-2007, 12:13 PM
If Dunn can be put in LF then anyone can play LF, even my dead grandmother could play LF better than Dunn

:p:

Damn skippy! :D

nate
07-29-2007, 12:25 PM
If Dunn can be put in LF then anyone can play LF, even my dead grandmother could play LF better than Dunn

:p:

Grandmother can't hit for power though.

Matt700wlw
07-29-2007, 12:30 PM
Grandmother can't hit for power though.

But she can strike out looking....

RedLegSuperStar
07-29-2007, 12:32 PM
But she can strike out looking....

Don't forget probably be able to take a walk..

Matt700wlw
07-29-2007, 12:36 PM
Don't forget probably be able to take a walk..

Maybe...but can she expand her strike zone?

Redmachine2003
07-29-2007, 01:26 PM
This is kind of Funny in the fact that the same thing was said about Phillips pick up and Some wined about the Hamilton pick up. This Kid put up great Numbers in the Majors two years ago and has some injuries since. Everyone keeps say his D stinks but didn't EE last year. (Some times D can be fixed) If he has got the arm to play 3rd he could be any worse than Freel at 3rd if EE is traded. Lets see if a change can improve his attitude and his over all play. He still has to have upside you just don't lose talent from the age of 23-25.

KronoRed
07-29-2007, 01:34 PM
Intelligent Reds talk for intelligent Reds fans.

Where do we find that? :(

Kc61
07-29-2007, 02:51 PM
How many years of service does Cantu have? Please, please, don't compare this one to Phillips.


And Medlock? Yeah, he musta sucked cuz our brilliant GM thought he did.

No loss on Medlock. No biggie. Let's just keep trading regulars and thowing millions at middle relievers and ignore what we have/had (Medlock, Guevara, etc.).

Damn genius that Krivsky.


Medlock was getting hit hard at AAA, never made BAs list of top thirty Reds prospects, and obviously the Reds didn't value him that highly as a prospect. Every youngish pitcher in the Reds system is not a solid major league prospect, even if he has success at the lower minor league levels.

Unless somebody has access to the Reds own evaluations of Medlock and Guevera, what is the fans basis for saying that they are real major league prospects? Always seemed to me that the better relief prospects are Pelland and Roenicke, guys who throw hard, not Medlock and Guevera.

I really liked this deal yesterday. Cantu has serious upside. One thing Krivsky seems to do well is pick out talented guys who, for whatever reason, aren't making good elsewhere. I don't think he gave up that much.

SteelSD
07-29-2007, 03:14 PM
Unless somebody has access to the Reds own evaluations of Medlock and Guevera, what is the fans basis for saying that they are real major league prospects?

Performance. A prospect doesn't have to turn up on a Baseball America list or be highly thought of by his own organization for him to be potentially helpful.

Kc61
07-29-2007, 03:30 PM
Performance. A prospect doesn't have to turn up on a Baseball America list or be highly thought of by his own organization for him to be potentially helpful.

Many guys are potentially helpful and do well in the minor leagues. Teams are entitled to reject that data if they feel a guy doesn't have major league stuff.

Medlock had poor numbers at AAA in a small sample size. He had done well in the lower minor leagues. He is not a big, hard throwing type, which may enter into the Reds' evaluation of his prospects.

I don't think a team is obliged to give a major league trial to every potentially helpful pitcher. The team is entitled to make some judgments, and I'm ok with this one.

However, I will admit that it would be nice for Krivsky and company to project correctly more often. The Coffey extension, the acquisition of some guys who have not helped, these do give me pause when the Reds deal a pitcher.

I do like the team's Rule 5 selection of Burton, who seems promising, and I also like Coutlangus who was rushed and has been overused this year. But many of the relief decisions have not worked out well.

jojo
07-29-2007, 03:38 PM
This is kind of Funny in the fact that the same thing was said about Phillips pick up and Some wined about the Hamilton pick up. This Kid put up great Numbers in the Majors two years ago and has some injuries since. Everyone keeps say his D stinks but didn't EE last year. (Some times D can be fixed) If he has got the arm to play 3rd he could be any worse than Freel at 3rd if EE is traded. Lets see if a change can improve his attitude and his over all play. He still has to have upside you just don't lose talent from the age of 23-25.

I was overjoyed by the Phillips pickup and was posting praise for the FO within minutes of the transaction hitting the wires (albeit on lesser boards).

Cantu's defense pretty much is unfixable. EE has the defensive tools to improve-i.e. range and arm strength while having age on his side. Cantu basically has played the middle infield and the hot corner despite having the defensive tools of a prospective firstbaseman.

SteelSD
07-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Many guys are potentially helpful and do well in the minor leagues. Teams are entitled to reject that data if they feel a guy doesn't have major league stuff.

Teams are entitled to do anything they want, sure. But I'm not going to act like such entitlement is justification for what appears to be a pretty irrational move.

The fact that Krivsky hasn't been able to identify productive relief pitchers is going to, for me, trump whatever the Reds may think about Medlock's size or stuff. The Reds have a woefully low team OBP. Jorge Cantu can't possibly change that. The Reds need defense. Cantu can't field. The Reds need relief pitchers. Cantu can't do that.

Potential needs filled with this trade: 0

Medlock has a history of performance. Minor league K rates above 9.00. Solid HR rates. Decent, if a bit volatile, BB rates. Unless your version of high minors is only AAA, then Medlock has produced plenty in the high minors (AA). Then 14-odd Innings of struggling with his BB rate at AAA. If that trumps nearly 400 prior Innings of success, then something's entirely wrong with the way the Reds evaluate pitching.

Redmachine2003
07-29-2007, 04:05 PM
I was overjoyed by the Phillips pickup and was posting praise for the FO within minutes of the transaction hitting the wires (albeit on lesser boards).

Cantu's defense pretty much is unfixable. EE has the defensive tools to improve-i.e. range and arm strength while having age on his side. Cantu basically has played the middle infield and the hot corner despite having the defensive tools of a prospective firstbaseman. How can you say that his D is unfixable? His RF is not that much different then EE or Gonzo and hasn't have over 21 E's in a Major league year. He may never win a gold glove but he IMO can be a serviceable 3b or 2b.

HumnHilghtFreel
07-29-2007, 04:07 PM
Potential needs filled with this trade: 0


I actually would have to disagree. I think one need that this trade would possibly fill would be a potentially solid RH bat with pop off the bench. Something that this team has been sorely lacking.

Of course, however, that is dependent on the team keeping him on the bench and not slotting him into a starting role every other day. I can have some hope, can't I?:)

Patrick Bateman
07-29-2007, 04:09 PM
How can you say that his D is unfixable? His RF is not that much different then EE or Gonzo and hasn't have over 21 E's in a Major league year. He may never win a gold glove but he IMO can be a serviceable 3b or 2b.

Range factor and errors are 2 really bad ways of judging a player's fiedling ability.

SteelSD
07-29-2007, 04:45 PM
I actually would have to disagree. I think one need that this trade would possibly fill would be a potentially solid RH bat with pop off the bench. Something that this team has been sorely lacking.

If the acquisition's name were "Jonny Gomes", then I'd have no problem getting behind that characterization. But Cantu is the proud owner of a career .301 minor league OBP and a .692 OPS. He had an unexplained power spike but his pop vanished in short order.

What we're likely to see going forward is an Alex Gonzalez bat coupled with poor defense. To me, that's not worth trading for.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2007, 04:46 PM
Teams are entitled to do anything they want, sure. But I'm not going to act like such entitlement is justification for what appears to be a pretty irrational move.

The fact that Krivsky hasn't been able to identify productive relief pitchers is going to, for me, trump whatever the Reds may think about Medlock's size or stuff. The Reds have a woefully low team OBP. Jorge Cantu can't possibly change that. The Reds need defense. Cantu can't field. The Reds need relief pitchers. Cantu can't do that.

Potential needs filled with this trade: 0

Medlock has a history of performance. Minor league K rates above 9.00. Solid HR rates. Decent, if a bit volatile, BB rates. Unless your version of high minors is only AAA, then Medlock has produced plenty in the high minors (AA). Then 14-odd Innings of struggling with his BB rate at AAA. If that trumps nearly 400 prior Innings of success, then something's entirely wrong with the way the Reds evaluate pitching.

The Reds do need some pop, though--which Cantu does possess to an extent.

Medlock doesn't possess a MLB reliever's complement of pitches.

Team Clark
07-29-2007, 04:46 PM
I would love to hear/read what TeamClark has to say about this deal...OH, TC????????????

Cantu, IIRC had a deep bone bruise issue with his foot last year preventing him from having any balance at the plate. The guy can hit in the right lineup. Shackelford and Medlock are not that much to give up for Cantu, IMO. Others disagree and well that's what makes baseball discussion so much fun. The Reds have Shackelford in Coutlangus and a better version of Medlock in Salmon and/or Burton. I would say McBeth but he's still under construction. :laugh: I don't see that the Reds gave up much for someone who doesn't have a big price tag.

I see them playing Cantu at 1B. He has the potential to regain his 2005 form and be a very productive player for the Reds. Worth the roll of the dice. As in all trades and moves time will tell.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2007, 04:52 PM
Maybe it's for the sake of having a Votto/Cantu platoon next year.

SteelSD
07-29-2007, 04:57 PM
The Reds do need some pop, though--which Cantu does possess to an extent.

Medlock doesn't possess a MLB reliever's complement of pitches.

The Reds have power. They desperately need OBP. Cantu will almost certainly not help the Reds' OBP and I question whether his SLG would actually augment the Reds' 2007 SLG (.427).

As to Medlock's stuff, I'll take my chances on a smallish RP with a history of recording outs before I'll roll the dice on a hitter who does a great job of getting himself out.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2007, 05:01 PM
The Reds have power. They desperately need OBP. Cantu will almost certainly not help the Reds' OBP and I question whether his SLG would actually augment the Reds' 2007 SLG (.427).

As to Medlock's stuff, I'll take my chances on a smallish RP with a history of recording outs before I'll roll the dice on a hitter who does a great job of getting himself out.

Yeah, of what I've seen of virtually all of the Reds' minor league arms that get talked up (most at AA), none has a true hammer pitch, and virtually all have command problems.

And my guess about Cantu is that he's going to represent a replacement for someone leaving via trade. I'm not saying he's the best option, but the bench DOES need power--it simply doesn't exist there (Castro, Lopez, et al).

camisadelgolf
07-29-2007, 05:08 PM
As to Medlock's stuff, I'll take my chances on a smallish RP with a history of recording outs before I'll roll the dice on a hitter who does a great job of getting himself out.

Of course you would. Anyone and everyone would. But as I'm sure you're aware, there are many more factors than that. However, if you want to talk like that, I could just as easily say I'll take the MVP of a Major League Baseball team over a struggling minor league reliever.

jojo
07-29-2007, 05:33 PM
Of course you would. Anyone and everyone would. But as I'm sure you're aware, there are many more factors than that. However, if you want to talk like that, I could just as easily say I'll take the MVP of a Major League Baseball team over a struggling minor league reliever.

What exactly does the MVP of a major league team really mean? Is that anything like McBeth being voted the best changeup in the A's system? BTW, that team was Tampa Bay circa '05... :eek:

Besides, the notion that Cantu was really valuable in '05 is basically a myth given the blackhole his defense was that season. He gave away the majority of the advantage his uncharacteristic offense provided that year.

SteelSD
07-29-2007, 05:48 PM
Of course you would. Anyone and everyone would. But as I'm sure you're aware, there are many more factors than that. However, if you want to talk like that, I could just as easily say I'll take the MVP of a Major League Baseball team over a struggling minor league reliever.

Interesting that no one's noticed that Medlock was the 2005 Reds Minor League Pitcher of the year. Apparently that doesn't mean anything because he's headed out and, thus, must be positioned as being not very good.

Medlock's history of producing Outs on the pitching side is meaningful. So is Cantu's history of producing a ton of Outs on the offensive side. I'll take a chance on the former versus the latter every day of the week, particularly when the former is in short supply.

M2
07-29-2007, 06:21 PM
Hmm, my take on Jorge Cantu back in 2005 was "There's a guy on the juice." He's got an awful swing that had never produced much power before 2004 and suddenly he's driving the ball? Always seemed highly suspicious to me. Anyway, if his power was the product of creative chemistry, then he's officially a no-tool player.

He's an awful defender, which is an odd acquisition for a team supposedly building around pitching and defense.

I hate the guy's game. Always have. It bugs me whenever the Reds acquire a guy whose game I hate.

As for Medlock, all he ever did was pitch well. I don't know if he'll graduate to the majors, but I always rooted for him (that won't change).

camisadelgolf
07-29-2007, 06:39 PM
What exactly does the MVP of a major league team really mean? Is that anything like McBeth being voted the best changeup in the A's system? BTW, that team was Tampa Bay circa '05... :eek:

Besides, the notion that Cantu was really valuable in '05 is basically a myth given the blackhole his defense was that season. He gave away the majority of the advantage his uncharacteristic offense provided that year.


Interesting that no one's noticed that Medlock was the 2005 Reds Minor League Pitcher of the year. Apparently that doesn't mean anything because he's headed out and, thus, must be positioned as being not very good.

Medlock's history of producing Outs on the pitching side is meaningful. So is Cantu's history of producing a ton of Outs on the offensive side. I'll take a chance on the former versus the latter every day of the week, particularly when the former is in short supply.

My point isn't saying anything about the trade. All I'm saying is that if you word it like, "I'll take my chances on a smallish RP with a history of recording outs before I'll roll the dice on a hitter who does a great job of getting himself out," then you're not being fair to the discussion.

SteelSD
07-29-2007, 07:28 PM
My point isn't saying anything about the trade. All I'm saying is that if you word it like, "I'll take my chances on a smallish RP with a history of recording outs before I'll roll the dice on a hitter who does a great job of getting himself out," then you're not being fair to the discussion.

You're going to have to elaborate, because that statement isn't unfair to either party.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2007, 07:48 PM
It's just that there's so much more to it. I'm going to have to disagree with you and leave it at that.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2007, 08:41 PM
The thing I like about him is his BA, OBP and Slg% all go up (and quite steeply) w/ RISP. He plates runs when they are there to be driven in. For all the appreciation for BB's you have to have guys who hit as well.

Sure we need more guys getting on base for this offense as the stats show we stink at, but just because we ain't getting them doesn't mean we stick our nose up in the air at someone who's shown the ability to drive them in.

Medlock may very well have been a solid RP, but he ain't proved nothing yet at this level while Cantu has at least show something. That in itself has got to be worth something.

What's comical is that this conversation has become about Medlock when Shackelford has a proven track record for being a LH specialist in the majors.

LHB Vs. Shack - 89 PA's .190 BA, .281 OBP%, .291 Slg% 1 HR 15 hits 5 BB's 21 K's.

camisadelgolf
07-29-2007, 08:50 PM
I won't lose any sleep over Shackelford due to his age and the emergence of Coutlangus.

jojo
07-29-2007, 08:52 PM
The thing I like about him is his BA, OBP and Slg% all go up (and quite steeply) w/ RISP. He plates runs when they are there to be driven in. For all the appreciation for BB's you have to have guys who hit as well.

You're giving him credit for a skill he doesn't possess. He had an outrageous situational split in 2005 and simply hasn't had enough PA's in the rest of his career for that split to come back to reality.

Razor Shines
07-29-2007, 08:58 PM
I think Cantu has talent and could put up good numbers if he ever learned patience at the plate, I think it's pretty obvious what happened. He had a nice power year in '05, but in 630 PAs he walked exactly 19 times. I'm not an expert but I don't think that's a very good ratio. Obviously the AL looked at that and said "so basically all we have to do is throw the ball toward the plate and he's going to swing." What a surprise his numbers have dropped off, it's hard to hit for power when your not seeing anything near the strike zone but still swinging.

I'm really afraid of the same thing happening to Brandon Phillips next year, he's walked 21 times in 460 PAs this year, not as bad as Cantu, but still bad. I don't know if the Reds have anyone to teach these guys the importance of patience (I don't know what Jacoby's philosophy is). I would like to think that it is something that can be taught/learned, maybe it can but just not at the age they're at now. I don't know.

Mario-Rijo
07-29-2007, 09:45 PM
You're giving him credit for a skill he doesn't possess. He had an outrageous situational split in 2005 and simply hasn't had enough PA's in the rest of his career for that split to come back to reality.

I am? Or are you just taking away credit for it? Who says he doesn't possess this skill? The law of averages I suppose might say so, but they have been wrong before.

Look guys the argument here is very simple, what do we have to lose if he is used appropriately? Calvin Medlock and that's about it apparently. No one is saying he will be a world beater but what does it hurt to see what he's got, when healthy and being used frequently?

Trade Conine and use him as a platoon guy at 1st for the rest of this (lost) season and off the bench and perhaps a start here and there elsewhere (By here and there I mean one every 2-3 weeks). Give him 150-200 PA's and see what you think, if he's as worthless as everyone seems to think he is, dump him and it costs nothing.

jojo
07-29-2007, 09:59 PM
I am? Or are you just taking away credit for it? Who says he doesn't possess this skill? The law of averages I suppose might say so, but they have been wrong before.

I guess I'd expect him to repeat it consistently if it was indeed a skill.

I agree with Steel (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1425998&postcount=106) on this one philosophically but in general it's a meh deal for me because I don't think Medlock was likely to be a high leverage type of major league arm and middle relievers are pretty interchangeable IMHO (atleast they are in most places). That said I haven't followed Medlock closely and basically have him pegged as a shorty with lesser stuff than Cueto.

I don't see any harm in platooning Cantu with Hattie the rest of the season, but by the same token given what I think Cantu's most likely true performance level is, I can't say that I much see the point in it either.

Here's to hoping he makes me look stupid.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2007, 10:03 PM
I guess I'd expect him to repeat it consistently if it was indeed a skill.

I agree with Steel (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1425998&postcount=106) on this one philosophically but in general it's a meh deal for me because I don't think Medlock was likely to be a high leverage type of major league arm and middle relievers are pretty interchangeable IMHO (atleast they are in most places). That said I haven't followed Medlock closely and basically have him pegged as a shorty with lesser stuff than Cueto.

I don't see any harm in platooning Cantu with Hattie the rest of the season, but by the same token given what I think Cantu's most likely true performance level is, I can't say that I much see the point in it either.

Here's to hoping he makes me look stupid.

Medlock's a midget cause celebre. I'd be surprised if the guy throws a full major league season.

Still, Cantu's pretty darn unexciting.

Overall, it's not bad because he possesses more pop than every other bench player on the team, but that's not saying a whole lot.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-29-2007, 11:25 PM
The non-bat missing relief junk that our FO has marched out so far in the Krivsky era:

Joe Mays
Ryan Franklin
Chris Hammond
Rick White
Esteban Yan
Gary Majewski
Rheal Cormier
Mike Burns
Jason Johnson
Sun Woo Kim
Mike Gosling
Victor Santos
Ricky Stone
Kirk Saarloos
Mike Stanton

Granted, most were picked off the scrap heap, but there are some in that illustrious group that cost not only some dough, but talent traded away as well. All the while, little Calvin Medlock has just continued to miss bats every step of the way in our very own system. This is a kid that put up a sickening 59-5 K/BB ratio in AA and although struggling since his recent call-up to AAA still has managed to keep is more than one K per inning thing going to the tune of 76 now in 63.2 IP. Last year, he fanned 70 in 63.2 in AA.

It's one thing if our GM and FO just simply thought that little Calvin's numbers didn't tell the whole story and that he was not talented or worth the time, however, they did go out of their way to place little man on the 40-man roster. So, I ask, what's the point? Never does he or Guevara get a chance when garbage continues to be marched out there. Wayne not only loves him a prospect that looks good in jeans, but he digs him some expensive veteran junkballers that don't miss many bats, don't he?


And Cantu? C'mon. No comparison to the Phillips or Hamilton acquisitions. Why? Well,

1. Hamilton and Phillips had loads of potential and shiny boxes full of tools.

2. They didn't cost anything, unless you consider Jeff Stevens something.

3. If they did pan out (which they have), they were still pretty early into their ML service time. Cantu, although just 25, is less than a year away from arbitration and three from free agency.

Honestly, if Cantu was free and he was pulled off the scrap heap for absolutely nothing, I'd still think this was a bad move. Why? Well, like Juan Castro who as we all know is a super nice fellow, Wayne will now be forced to play him. At least Juan has the perception of having a glove and is real good with the young Latin players. If Wayne needs him some non-fielding, out producing, pop for his bench, there already is a guy down in AAA that fits that description.

Mark Belhorn.

I'm thinking Wayne loves to play the low risk, high-reward bet. Nobody remembers the dozens of failures, but everyone remembers that one feel good story. Forget that the team is still terrible. Risk. Funny, Wayne does play the low-risk card when the one thing this franchise needs is someone willing to put their neck out on the line. Oh wait. He did that too. And he failed. Well, you can't spell risky, without Krivsky, can you?

Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Is that how it goes? I like it. I think I may use it as my sig. That or simply "Wake me when this pathetic franchise wakes it's damn self up."

One of the two. I'm not sure.

Stormy
07-29-2007, 11:44 PM
That's one ripping good yarn of a post BuckeyeRedleg. Great stuff, buddy! My biggest problems with the transaction, to echo your own sentiments are...

* Wayne Krivsky has paraded an entire carnival of clowns through town in his tragecomic attempt to build anything resembling a major league bullpen. So, when you have a homegrown guy who can actually break a pain of glass, who retires batters at an impressive clip, and who has boasted an exceptional K/9 rate for multiple years in the system... why wouldn't you give such a guy a chance to demonstrate whether he's up to the task or not?

I guess it's more fun to throw buckets of money, and personnel, at aging veterans who have no skills left whatsoever, but it's certainly not more effective. What's more, Medlock doesn't seem to be the only casualty of Wayne's apparent dislike for guys with some semblance of a power arm, given the way others have been disposed of, and given the roundtrip ticket Salmon has been on.

* Cantu? What's to be said that hasn't already been mentioned? No glove, artificial power?, and an ability to get on base that will be lucky to get within shouting distance of a 300OBP.

Color me nonplussed.

Falls City Beer
07-29-2007, 11:52 PM
The non-bat missing relief junk that our FO has marched out so far in the Krivsky era:

Joe Mays
Ryan Franklin
Chris Hammond
Rick White
Esteban Yan
Gary Majewski
Rheal Cormier
Mike Burns
Jason Johnson
Sun Woo Kim
Mike Gosling
Victor Santos
Ricky Stone
Kirk Saarloos
Mike Stanton

Granted, most were picked off the scrap heap, but there are some in that illustrious group that cost not only some dough, but talent traded away as well. All the while, little Calvin Medlock has just continued to miss bats every step of the way in our very own system. This is a kid that put up a sickening 59-5 K/BB ratio in AA and although struggling since his recent call-up to AAA still has managed to keep is more than one K per inning thing going to the tune of 76 now in 63.2 IP. Last year, he fanned 70 in 63.2 in AA.

It's one thing if our GM and FO just simply thought that little Calvin's numbers didn't tell the whole story and that he was not talented or worth the time, however, they did go out of their way to place little man on the 40-man roster. So, I ask, what's the point? Never does he or Guevara get a chance when garbage continues to be marched out there. Wayne not only loves him a prospect that looks good in jeans, but he digs him some expensive veteran junkballers that don't miss many bats, don't he?


And Cantu? C'mon. No comparison to the Phillips or Hamilton acquisitions. Why? Well,

1. Hamilton and Phillips had loads of potential and shiny boxes full of tools.

2. They didn't cost anything, unless you consider Jeff Stevens something.

3. If they did pan out (which they have), they were still pretty early into their ML service time. Cantu, although just 25, is less than a year away from arbitration and three from free agency.

Honestly, if Cantu was free and he was pulled off the scrap heap for absolutely nothing, I'd still think this was a bad move. Why? Well, like Juan Castro who as we all know is a super nice fellow, Wayne will now be forced to play him. At least Juan has the perception of having a glove and is real good with the young Latin players. If Wayne needs him some non-fielding, out producing, pop for his bench, there already is a guy down in AAA that fits that description.

Mark Belhorn.

I'm thinking Wayne loves to play the low risk, high-reward bet. Nobody remembers the dozens of failures, but everyone remembers that one feel good story. Forget that the team is still terrible. Risk. Funny, Wayne does play the low-risk card when the one thing this franchise needs is someone willing to put their neck out on the line. Oh wait. He did that too. And he failed. Well, you can't spell risky, without Krivsky, can you?

Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Is that how it goes? I like it. I think I may use it as my sig. That or simply "Wake me when this pathetic franchise wakes it's damn self up."

One of the two. I'm not sure.

He's keeping Burton on the 25-man--despite him sucking.

Obviously I'm one of Wayne's biggest detractors, but I don't think it's a hardthrowing vs. soft-throwing argument. I think it's throws strikes vs. doesn't throw strikes. I wish the Reds had guys who threw strikes and threw hard AND were difficult to hit. But Wayne seems incapable of producing those kinds. Honestly, the Reds have none of the above types in their pen or minors, and Medlock wasn't one either. Year after year, the Reds have some shiny minor league arms that tear up AA and/or AAA and ultimately they end up being nothing. About as good as you're going to find from the system is Coffey or a guy from another system in Coutlangus. No great shakes--two guys you can find rattling around on any team's 40 man rosters.

Basically, I want tons of arms from different systems, and I want the Reds coaching structure in their minors destroyed and revolutionarily replaced.

What Cantu does or doesn't do is basically meaningless--he determines nothing and means nothing. Though it certainly raises the question of why would you spend your time on this deal? That's the great loss here--time spent acquiring him.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 12:16 AM
I wish the Reds had guys who threw strikes and threw hard AND were difficult to hit. But Wayne seems incapable of producing those kinds. Honestly, the Reds have none of the above types in their pen or minors, and Medlock wasn't one either.

How do you know about Medlock? He was never given a chance.

McBeth seems to be very similar to Medlock. So, I guess in all the spinning of wheels by Wayne, we've netted Jorge Cantu for Chris Denorfia.

Like I said, someone wake me soon. That or shoot me.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 12:19 AM
How do you know about Medlock? He was never given a chance.

McBeth seems to be very similar to Medlock. So, I guess in all the spinning of wheels by Wayne, we've netted Jorge Cantu for Chris Denorfia.

Like I said, someone wake me soon. That or shoot me.

Medlock, McBeth, Salmon--all cut from the same overhyped stuff/poor control cloth.

The only way you can get away with poor control is to have stuff that really is the opposite of overhyped (Scott Williamson).

Denorfia for McBeth? Now THAT move's a stinker. It'll just become more painful next season when Denorfia's producing for the A's.

Hoosier Red
07-30-2007, 12:21 AM
He's keeping Burton on the 25-man--despite him sucking.


Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see, and I'm admittedly pretty optimistic, but Burton appears to have pitched better recently(though he was roughed up a little today.)

As far as next season goes Burton's at the very least put himself in the conversation as far as belonging on a big league club.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 12:29 AM
Medlock, McBeth, Salmon--all cut from the same overhyped stuff/poor control cloth.


Like I said, Medlock had a 59-5 K/BB ratio in AA. Something's got to be working right to pull that off.

I still would take a bullpen of Salmon, McBeth, Medlock, Guevara, Coutlangus, Weathers, and even Coffey over some of the yuck yuck that Wayne's been shuttling to and fro on the idiotmobile.

Razor Shines
07-30-2007, 12:37 AM
Maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see, and I'm admittedly pretty optimistic, but Burton appears to have pitched better recently(though he was roughed up a little today.)

As far as next season goes Burton's at the very least put himself in the conversation as far as belonging on a big league club.

I agree he's the one guy in the bullpen that seems to have an ability for missing bats. He had a bad day today. He's young and I can't imagine why someone would say that he shouldn't be on the 25 man roster, considering we lose him if he's not.

SteelSD
07-30-2007, 01:42 AM
The non-bat missing relief junk that our FO has marched out so far in the Krivsky era:

Joe Mays
Ryan Franklin
Chris Hammond
Rick White
Esteban Yan
Gary Majewski
Rheal Cormier
Mike Burns
Jason Johnson
Sun Woo Kim
Mike Gosling
Victor Santos
Ricky Stone
Kirk Saarloos
Mike Stanton

Granted, most were picked off the scrap heap, but there are some in that illustrious group that cost not only some dough, but talent traded away as well. All the while, little Calvin Medlock has just continued to miss bats every step of the way in our very own system. This is a kid that put up a sickening 59-5 K/BB ratio in AA and although struggling since his recent call-up to AAA still has managed to keep is more than one K per inning thing going to the tune of 76 now in 63.2 IP. Last year, he fanned 70 in 63.2 in AA.

It's one thing if our GM and FO just simply thought that little Calvin's numbers didn't tell the whole story and that he was not talented or worth the time, however, they did go out of their way to place little man on the 40-man roster. So, I ask, what's the point? Never does he or Guevara get a chance when garbage continues to be marched out there. Wayne not only loves him a prospect that looks good in jeans, but he digs him some expensive veteran junkballers that don't miss many bats, don't he?


And Cantu? C'mon. No comparison to the Phillips or Hamilton acquisitions. Why? Well,

1. Hamilton and Phillips had loads of potential and shiny boxes full of tools.

2. They didn't cost anything, unless you consider Jeff Stevens something.

3. If they did pan out (which they have), they were still pretty early into their ML service time. Cantu, although just 25, is less than a year away from arbitration and three from free agency.

Honestly, if Cantu was free and he was pulled off the scrap heap for absolutely nothing, I'd still think this was a bad move. Why? Well, like Juan Castro who as we all know is a super nice fellow, Wayne will now be forced to play him. At least Juan has the perception of having a glove and is real good with the young Latin players. If Wayne needs him some non-fielding, out producing, pop for his bench, there already is a guy down in AAA that fits that description.

Mark Belhorn.

I'm thinking Wayne loves to play the low risk, high-reward bet. Nobody remembers the dozens of failures, but everyone remembers that one feel good story. Forget that the team is still terrible. Risk. Funny, Wayne does play the low-risk card when the one thing this franchise needs is someone willing to put their neck out on the line. Oh wait. He did that too. And he failed. Well, you can't spell risky, without Krivsky, can you?

Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Is that how it goes? I like it. I think I may use it as my sig. That or simply "Wake me when this pathetic franchise wakes it's damn self up."

One of the two. I'm not sure.

Bravo. Exceptional post.

StillFunkyB
07-30-2007, 02:43 AM
Bravo. Exceptional post.

I'd like to second that.

This is just another dumb move.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2007, 03:32 AM
See below.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2007, 03:35 AM
The non-bat missing relief junk that our FO has marched out so far in the Krivsky era:

Joe Mays
Ryan Franklin
Chris Hammond
Rick White
Esteban Yan
Gary Majewski
Rheal Cormier
Mike Burns
Jason Johnson
Sun Woo Kim
Mike Gosling
Victor Santos
Ricky Stone
Kirk Saarloos
Mike Stanton

Granted, most were picked off the scrap heap, but there are some in that illustrious group that cost not only some dough, but talent traded away as well. All the while, little Calvin Medlock has just continued to miss bats every step of the way in our very own system. This is a kid that put up a sickening 59-5 K/BB ratio in AA and although struggling since his recent call-up to AAA still has managed to keep is more than one K per inning thing going to the tune of 76 now in 63.2 IP. Last year, he fanned 70 in 63.2 in AA.

It's one thing if our GM and FO just simply thought that little Calvin's numbers didn't tell the whole story and that he was not talented or worth the time, however, they did go out of their way to place little man on the 40-man roster. So, I ask, what's the point? Never does he or Guevara get a chance when garbage continues to be marched out there. Wayne not only loves him a prospect that looks good in jeans, but he digs him some expensive veteran junkballers that don't miss many bats, don't he?


And Cantu? C'mon. No comparison to the Phillips or Hamilton acquisitions. Why? Well,

1. Hamilton and Phillips had loads of potential and shiny boxes full of tools.

2. They didn't cost anything, unless you consider Jeff Stevens something.

3. If they did pan out (which they have), they were still pretty early into their ML service time. Cantu, although just 25, is less than a year away from arbitration and three from free agency.

Honestly, if Cantu was free and he was pulled off the scrap heap for absolutely nothing, I'd still think this was a bad move. Why? Well, like Juan Castro who as we all know is a super nice fellow, Wayne will now be forced to play him. At least Juan has the perception of having a glove and is real good with the young Latin players. If Wayne needs him some non-fielding, out producing, pop for his bench, there already is a guy down in AAA that fits that description.

Mark Belhorn.

I'm thinking Wayne loves to play the low risk, high-reward bet. Nobody remembers the dozens of failures, but everyone remembers that one feel good story. Forget that the team is still terrible. Risk. Funny, Wayne does play the low-risk card when the one thing this franchise needs is someone willing to put their neck out on the line. Oh wait. He did that too. And he failed. Well, you can't spell risky, without Krivsky, can you?

Rinse. Lather. Repeat. Is that how it goes? I like it. I think I may use it as my sig. That or simply "Wake me when this pathetic franchise wakes it's damn self up."

One of the two. I'm not sure.

Wow. I hated to copy the entire post, but it was worth everyone reading again. Rinse. Lather. Repeat. The motto for not only the Krivsky era but for many others. And we will se more in the next two days. The Cantus and Castros will be the rule with Krivsky in charge. Surely, Castellini will see this, but I have a feeling he is too tied up with his produce business and other matters to pay close attention. I can only hope that this madness ends at season's end and we get a real GM with a vision and a manager who can nudge people into performing well. Taking people off the scrap heap is the operational philosophy of the Pirates and Royals. I'd like to hope we're better than that, but with our present "brain trust", we aren't.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 08:42 AM
Calvin Medlock...the savior that got away.

Big Klu
07-30-2007, 08:56 AM
This trade points to the lack of organizational depth in the infield. Prior to the trade, the Reds had only eight infielders at Louisville and Chattanooga combined--nine, if you count Jeff Bannon at Louisville, but then the Bats would have only two outfielders.

Louisville
Mark Bellhorn
Aaron Herr
Paul Janish
Anderson Machado

Chattanooga
Drew Anderson
Luis Bolivar
Enrique Cruz
Michael Griffin


Jeff Keppinger and Pedro Lopez have both been recalled from the minors (Lopez is now injured), and Jerry Gil was lost for the season in Spring Training. So there isn't much down there, in terms of quality or quantity. Cantu may not be much, but he adds to the organizational depth.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 09:15 AM
Blurb on Cantu from BP. Notice the last sentence...


Try to follow along with the Old Regime`s reasoning: in 2003 your second baseman is Marlon Anderson, who does so well that he will never again hold a regular job. Meanwhile, Cantu plays 60 games at Durham and does pretty darn well. Still, the guy is quite young; he`s impatient at the plate, and his glove leaves much to be desired, so you decide to sit on him for a year. You wind up with Rey Sanchez and Geoff Blum manning the keystone. They`re abysmal. On July 17, 2004, Cantu comes up from the minors. Everything about him is the same--the glove, the impatience--but the guy does something none of your other second basemen do: he hits. Now it`s winter. You cannot hope to contend in 2005. You can only hope to grow towards contending. So what do you do--give this Cantu kid a chance? No, you sign Roberto Alomar, who everyone knows is finished. Even he knows he`s finished, and it`s only by virtue of his last-minute retirement that you don`t screw yourself again. Cantu offers a valuable lesson: never consider a player in a vacuum. Cantu has flaws, but he`s infinitely valuable when the alternative is nothing.


Year Tm Lg PA OBP SLG EqA VORP
2004 DUR 3A 392 .335 .576 .271 22.5
2004 TBA MJ 185 .341 .462 .276 11.6
2005 TBA MJ 630 .311 .497 .282 31.4
2006 MNT 2A 33 .212 .387 .204 -2.3
2006 TBA MJ 448 .295 .404 .245 3.0

I'm not fooled into thinking Cantu is the future of much of anything, however, I like the line that I see above with the exception of the OBP. We already have plenty of guys who can get out in the lineup. However, considering the alternatives on the bench right now, I'd take Cantu over the "nothing" we already have, especially considering the GABP effect. If we can replace Castro, Moller (yes, I know he's only there because he catches) Conine, etc with Cantu, Keppinger and Hopper, how in the world isn't that an improvement? Adding Kepp and now Cantu, who can play multiple positions (albiet it not all very well) also frees up Freel who can be packaged with a Loshe or a whomever.

I also like that we got another young OF prospect and cash back in the deal. Shackelford's days with the orginization were over as soon as he was released from the Milwaukee police station (they just had to wait long enough so it didn't look like retrobution). Medlock...maybe he's a solid big league pitcher who just got away. However when the names on your comp list include Brandon Medders, Jeff Harris, Gabe Molina, Doug Sessions, Geoff Duncan and Ronnie Corona I have to wonder if you were really the next big thing.

And here's Medlocks projected numbers from BP (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/MEDLOCK19821108A.php) Color me yawn.


IP WHIP ERA H9 BB9 K9 HR9
62.0 1.58 5.41 10.2 3.8 6.1 1.5

bucksfan2
07-30-2007, 09:53 AM
Cantu had a great season in 2005 and is still young. Medlock has never proven anything at the major league level and this year ran up some stats at a lower level than he should have been. Maybe, juts maybe he was kept in AA so he could boost his stats and get more bang for his buck (a la Zack Ward). There are a lot of people who react adversely to every move Krivsky makes bar none. There are also a lot of people who overvalued Medlock's abilities. I would wonder when the minor league section did their top 10 prospect lists if Medlock's name appeard on more than a quarter of the lists. Sure Medlock could have been good but as of right now he was behind the likes of Salmon, McBeth, Bray, and Maj so his path the the bigs was probably delayed by at least a year. As fir Shack he failed as a red last year, he was a LOGGY who was behind Countlangous, Bray, Guardado, and Stanton two of which are projected as long term fixtures as reds. So Shack is really no loss what so ever. Most organizatoins would be excited about getting a guy who had 100 + rbi a few season ago for a reliever who 2 months ago was in AA and really had his way blocked to the major league pen. But since Krivsky made the move most people are up in arms about it.

MartyFan
07-30-2007, 11:21 AM
Last season he played 109 games with a broken foot and had 62 RBIs. Needless to say, his agent is excited about the prospects of Cantu in Great American Ball Park. His agent also said he saw him hit a 450-foot home run in Durham last week.

That is from C. Trent's Blog...did you guys know he hates "Blogger"?

Anyway, I had no idea his foot was broken when he was playing...major toughness.

jojo
07-30-2007, 11:52 AM
But since Krivsky made the move most people are up in arms about it.

I really don't think this is a fair blanket statement. Many have expressed a negative opinion about the acquisition of Cantu using arguments that IMHO do not display a bias like you suggest.

I think Cantu is pretty much a turd but this opinion was not informed one iota by Krivsky's history in the Reds FO .

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 11:56 AM
I think Cantu is pretty much a turd but this opinion was not informed one iota by Krivsky's history in the Reds FO .

My feeling as well. This had nothing to do with the fact that Wayne Krivsky made the move. It has everything to do with the fact that Cantu's OBP is horrible and always has been. I'm just not convinced that the Reds will stick Cantu on the bench and leave him there (where he belongs). They'll let him platoon with someone, most likely Votto at 1B. Who knows, maybe they'll trade Votto and Conine because of this move. Either way, I'm guessing the Reds will make Cantu the RH portion of a platoon at 1B, and that's bad, because Cantu doesn't hit LH pitching very well.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 12:03 PM
If Cantu was unhappy being a bench player in TB I doubt being in Cincy will make him like it any better.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 12:04 PM
Real good chance is he is in uniform on Tuesday.

I get the feeling that Dunn and Conine will not be Reds come sometime tomorrow.

bucksfan2
07-30-2007, 12:14 PM
I really don't think this is a fair blanket statement. Many have expressed a negative opinion about the acquisition of Cantu using arguments that IMHO do not display a bias like you suggest.

I think Cantu is pretty much a turd but this opinion was not informed one iota by Krivsky's history in the Reds FO .

I did not mean to make blanket statement however over the past year or so a large portion of reds fans critize every move that was made by Krivsky. Whether you like the move or not Krivsky made the move for a reason. Every move the man has made he has had a plan in mind. IMO the failure of most fans is to identify and realize that in order to move foreward you need to take steps backwards. But I ask everyone does this move make this team worse? I say if Cantu can return healthy and to his previous form it is one heck of a move.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 12:21 PM
2 points
1) Medlock is likely to never be anything more than replaceable
2) Cantu is likely a turd.

I guess people are worried that the Reds might actually see Cantu as an everyday player. With his extremely poor glove I find that unlikely but the potential is there.

Reds neither gave up much or got much.

The real issue for WK is can he identify a real return when he is actually giving up something of value.

BRM
07-30-2007, 12:28 PM
I get the feeling that Dunn and Conine will not be Reds come sometime tomorrow.

Conine for sure. I'm not sure Dunn gets traded at this point.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2007, 12:29 PM
I'm not a Krivsky fan, but I don't mind this move at all.

Cantu has shown a great deal of power at a young age. He's a high-ceiling type with flaws. Maybe he pans out to be a Jose Guillen type hitter. Some of those types actually have decent ML careers.

I'm indifferent about the Reds giving up Medlock. He was a bit old for AA ball.

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 12:29 PM
Conine for sure. I'm not sure Dunn gets traded at this point.

Unfortunately, I think Dunn will be traded to the Nats. And this board is going to go offline. And we'll lose a lot of fans. And the Reds will suck even more.

/end Eeyore rant/

BRM
07-30-2007, 12:32 PM
Unfortunately, I think Dunn will be traded to the Nats. And this board is going to go offline. And we'll lose a lot of fans. And the Reds will suck even more.

/end Eeyore rant/

Well, if he goes there for Cordero and Rauch, I agree...the board will go bonkers.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 12:34 PM
Conine for sure. I'm not sure Dunn gets traded at this point.I really think that WK has reached the point of desperation.

Unless he does something major that works out it is hard to see how he survives much longer.

BRM
07-30-2007, 12:36 PM
I really think that WK has reached the point of desperation.

Unless he does something major that works out it is hard to see how he survives much longer.

I don't think Cordero and Rauch is the type of return most on this board are hoping for.

lollipopcurve
07-30-2007, 12:37 PM
I would be OK with a return of Cordero and Rauch, believe it or not.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 12:38 PM
I don't think Cordero and Rauch is the type of return most on this board are hoping for.That is a pretty safe assumption.

With the grievance still hanging out there and the bad feelings over last years trade I highly doubt a deal with the Nats. In the past we never have even gotten a whiff of a WK deal before it happened so the leaking is coming from the Bowden side ... and we know all about him.

BRM
07-30-2007, 12:39 PM
I'd rather just extend Dunn.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 12:42 PM
I'd rather just extend Dunn.I'd rather get something of real value rather than two extreme flyball relief pitchers coming from a pitchers park to HR park.

This isn't about extending Dunn it's about fixing the dearth of talent. The problem is that the two guys will be getting expensive, aren't all that good and would do little to address the real issues.

SteelSD
07-30-2007, 12:44 PM
I'd rather just extend Dunn.

As would I if the prospective return is Cordero and Rauch.

BRM
07-30-2007, 12:45 PM
I'd rather get something of real value rather than two extreme flyball relief pitchers coming from a pitchers park to HR park.

This isn't about extending Dunn it's about fixing the dearth of talent. The problem is that the two guys will be getting expensive, aren't all that good and would do little to address the real issues.

What I meant was, if those two are the best offer Wayne gets, just extend Dunn and go from there.

KronoRed
07-30-2007, 01:41 PM
I guess people are worried that the Reds might actually see Cantu as an everyday player. With his extremely poor glove I find that unlikely but the potential is there.

I think it's extremely likely, the Reds talk D a lot but it seems to be hit or miss in what takes the field

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 01:59 PM
# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP
6. 2007 Brandon Phillips 26 464 .267 .323 .473 18.8
7. 2007 Ronnie Belliard 32 316 .273 .343 .425 13.6
8. 2007 Mark Derosa 32 347 .274 .368 .437 13.6
9. 2007 Mark Loretta 3 339 .272 .371 .385 10.7
10.2007 Freddy Sanchez 29 412 .256 .322 .409 8.6

Cantu BP Projected 25 548 .265 .308 .452 13.7

The more I think about this Cantu signing the more it may be interesting. That's a big "may" but bear with me.

First is his age. 25. We're constantly complaining about older players, yet heres a guy that injects some youth into the Reds roster. And he's got his prime years ahead of him in a bandbox stadium.

Above is a list of current NL second-basemen with at least 200PA. If Cantu was suddenly plugged into 2B and played every day, and he met the PECTOA projection he'd rank 7th in the NL in terms of VORP. He'd be right behind our very own Brandon Philips.

Maybe with AGons recient personal issues part of the Cantu equation is having the option to move BP to SS and start Cantu at 2b? Wild speculation obviously. Or having him around to mix and match along with Keppinger gives them more flexibility if EE bombs, AGon stays AWOL and Phil (god forbid) is injured.

That does nothing to dispell the very valid concerns over his horrid OBP and questionable D, however, maybe there's more to this Cantu picture than is obvious at first glance? :confused:

sonny
07-30-2007, 02:08 PM
# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP
6. 2007 Brandon Phillips 26 464 .267 .323 .473 18.8
7. 2007 Ronnie Belliard 32 316 .273 .343 .425 13.6
8. 2007 Mark Derosa 32 347 .274 .368 .437 13.6
9. 2007 Mark Loretta 3 339 .272 .371 .385 10.7
10.2007 Freddy Sanchez 29 412 .256 .322 .409 8.6

Cantu BP Projected 25 548 .265 .308 .452 13.7

The more I think about this Cantu signing the more it may be interesting. That's a big "may" but bear with me.

First is his age. 25. We're constantly complaining about older players, yet heres a guy that injects some youth into the Reds roster. And he's got his prime years ahead of him in a bandbox stadium.

Above is a list of current NL second-basemen with at least 200PA. If Cantu was suddenly plugged into 2B and played every day, and he met the PECTOA projection he'd rank 7th in the NL in terms of VORP. He'd be right behind our very own Brandon Philips.

Maybe with AGons recient personal issues part of the Cantu equation is having the option to move BP to SS and start Cantu at 2b? Wild speculation obviously. Or having him around to mix and match along with Keppinger gives them more flexibility if EE bombs, AGon stays AWOL and Phil (god forbid) is injured.

That does nothing to dispell the very valid concerns over his horrid OBP and questionable D, however, maybe there's more to this Cantu picture than is obvious at first glance? :confused:

I like Cantu. always have, and I can really see him succeeding in our little sandbox. Defensive issues aside, the Reds have gotten younger, a little more versatile and have given an opportunity to a guy who has had success in the past.

I see the biggest problem with this that we gave up two career minor leaguers. Not too shabby a job from WK, if I may say so.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 02:10 PM
Cantu has no place to play with the Reds beside bench.

BRM
07-30-2007, 02:11 PM
Cantu has no place to play with the Reds beside bench.

I agree with those who have predicted he'll be the RH piece of the 1B platoon once Conine is traded.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 02:12 PM
I agree with those who have predicted he'll be the RH piece of the 1B platoon once Conine is traded.... where his bat will not play well. I saw when the Eggs sent him back down and I didn't mention acquiring him because I honestly couldn't see how he could help the Reds other than as a bat off the bench with some pop ... which is why he was upset about being with the Eggs. he fancies himself an everyday player but the Reds already have BP manning his position.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2007, 02:17 PM
# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP
6. 2007 Brandon Phillips 26 464 .267 .323 .473 18.8
7. 2007 Ronnie Belliard 32 316 .273 .343 .425 13.6
8. 2007 Mark Derosa 32 347 .274 .368 .437 13.6
9. 2007 Mark Loretta 3 339 .272 .371 .385 10.7
10.2007 Freddy Sanchez 29 412 .256 .322 .409 8.6

Cantu BP Projected 25 548 .265 .308 .452 13.7

The more I think about this Cantu signing the more it may be interesting. That's a big "may" but bear with me.

First is his age. 25. We're constantly complaining about older players, yet heres a guy that injects some youth into the Reds roster. And he's got his prime years ahead of him in a bandbox stadium.

Above is a list of current NL second-basemen with at least 200PA. If Cantu was suddenly plugged into 2B and played every day, and he met the PECTOA projection he'd rank 7th in the NL in terms of VORP. He'd be right behind our very own Brandon Philips.

Maybe with AGons recient personal issues part of the Cantu equation is having the option to move BP to SS and start Cantu at 2b? Wild speculation obviously. Or having him around to mix and match along with Keppinger gives them more flexibility if EE bombs, AGon stays AWOL and Phil (god forbid) is injured.

That does nothing to dispell the very valid concerns over his horrid OBP and questionable D, however, maybe there's more to this Cantu picture than is obvious at first glance? :confused:

Here's the thing. Cantu is not a 2nd basemen. If the Reds find themselves inserting Cantu into the line-up at 2nd base at any kind of regular pace, then they are going to be in big trouble.

The only position he might really be able to play without hurting the team is 1st base. Otherwise any of his value derived rom his offense will be mostly lost due to his horrid fiedling abilities.

So I think a better comparison is Cantu against 1st basemen. You'd find that his bat is pretty awful there, and that's his true comparisons. Guys who can't play any kind of skill position.

If Cantu does end up on the team and I fully expect he will, he needs to be held strictly to the bench, and perhaps the occasional start filling in for guys around the infield. If his bat recovers to 2005 levels, he could be a useful bat off the bench, but in any extended role, he is going to be a major liability regardless where he plays. His bat isn't good enough to profile as a 1st basemen, and his fielding prohibits him from playing 2nd or 3rd.

That's my main problem. If his bat does get to 2005 levels, I could easily see him finding playing time. He's the type that will always look better then he really is because he can get counting stats rather than walks and having the ability to get on base.

M2
07-30-2007, 02:24 PM
If Cantu was suddenly plugged into 2B and played every day, and he met the PECTOA projection he'd rank 7th in the NL in terms of VORP. He'd be right behind our very own Brandon Philips.

That assumes PECOTA projected Cantu properly (which it clearly hasn't to date in 2007). For those of us who consider his 2005 a fluke, then PECOTA's basing its projection on an unprojectable set of figures.

Cantu strikes me as awfully similar to another Brandon, Brandon Larson. Could Larson have had his stars align for a season like Cantu's 2005? Sure, but he was more likely to get eaten alive thanks to his horrible plate approach and poor swing mechanics.

Personally, I don't expect anything notable from Cantu in 2007 and we'll see if he can find the right offseason boost before 2008.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 02:33 PM
For those of us who consider his 2005 a fluke .

Do you also consider his 2004 a fluke?


Year Tm Lg PA OBP SLG EqA VORP
2004 DUR 3A 392 .335 .576 .271 22.5
2004 TBA MJ 185 .341 .462 .276 11.6

I have no idea if his AAA team is in a hitters paradise or a pitchers heavy league, nor do I know what position his VORP is calculated on (althought BP lists him as a 2B). That said, these aren't hideous numbers (which also include 185 PA's in the majors).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not campagining for him to be the 2B of the future or to get regular playing time. My gut feel is that he's Keppinger v.2 with more power. My hope is that he is a bench/role player rather than a platoon.

I'm just saying that he's got a little more upside than is obvious at first glance. Yes, his OBP sucks eggs. But if used well (which is a gigantic IF of intergalatic proportions) he can add value to the team, IMO.

M2
07-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Do you also consider his 2004 a fluke?

Yep. He was non-prospect with minimal power and then he suddenly started lashing the ball. Now he's back to being largely ineffectual. I'm on record, I think he juiced.

BRM
07-30-2007, 02:46 PM
Yep. He was non-prospect with minimal power and then he suddenly started lashing the ball. Now he's back to being largely ineffectual. I'm on record, I think he juiced.

He hasn't hit for any power at all this season, at the major league level or AAA.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 02:48 PM
Who knows about Cantu?

BP had rather unimpressive minor league stints after his failed attempt as a 2b with the Indians in 2003.

I just don't see how Cantu ever gets a chance to play with the current configuration of the infield ... and if it made him unhappy in TB the same is likely to happen in Cincy.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 04:59 PM
While I'm not 100 percent convinced that Cantu can be fixed, this was a pretty worthwhile risk to take by Krivsky. Medlock and Shackelford were decisively disposable, and while both Cantu and Cumberland are trying to live down former expectations of greatness, they're both talented and still relatively young, and as much as the Reds farm system is much improved of late, it's still the sort of system that could use a depth move or three.

Cantu doesn't real fix the Reds' being short-handed in the infield; he's not considered much of a second baseman, and shortstop's out of the question. So he really needs to be seen as an alternative to Edwin Encarnacion at third, and since it seems as if the Reds can't muster up more than a perfunctory enthusiasm for Encarnacion, there's clearly an opportunity here—for Cantu if he can get his bat started back up again, and for another team that might like to get Encarnacion. Cantu's only 25, and while he did most of his hitting in the Trop, he is moving to the easier league, and into another organization where the parent club plays in a bandbox. If he can't get turned around here—and learning to wait on his pitch is pretty much the only way he will—he may not ever. He's certainly worth the flyer to find out.

From BP

Rojo
07-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Yep. He was non-prospect with minimal power and then he suddenly started lashing the ball. Now he's back to being largely ineffectual. I'm on record, I think he juiced.

My concern as well. If I was sure he wasn't, I'd like the trade fine.

RedlegJake
07-30-2007, 10:15 PM
I'd like this deal if the guy was happy as a role player but its the only way he can help the Reds - RH bat off the bench with pop. I don't mind the price since I wasn't high on either Shack or Medlock, I just wonder if Cantu quickly becomes disgruntled when he learns he isn't about to start for the Reds, either.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:02 PM
I'd like this deal if the guy was happy as a role player but its the only way he can help the Reds - RH bat off the bench with pop. I don't mind the price since I wasn't high on either Shack or Medlock, I just wonder if Cantu quickly becomes disgruntled when he learns he isn't about to start for the Reds, either.

He may have a gripe when he is already with a team. Coming to a new team he has to take what he gets, that's one of those unwritten rules in baseball. However Krivsky did say he would get playing time. Wait a tick, perhaps EE is heading to Minnesota, the Twins just dealt Luis Castillo to the NYM's. Punto to 2nd and no one with more than a handful of PA's to play 3rd (except perhaps late inning defenders) for them. Minnesota isn't likely to give up this early, somethings brewing people. Opening up 3rd for Cantu/Kepp

camisadelgolf
07-30-2007, 11:36 PM
Maybe the Twins think they'll get Ensberg.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:45 PM
Maybe the Twins think they'll get Ensberg.

Ahh, good point. That might be right down the Twinkies ally, although my gut says Houston would have to pay the remainder of the contract. Will they, quite possible.

pedro
07-31-2007, 12:26 AM
Here's my Jorge Cantu story. I picked him for my "hacking mass" team in 2005 and he hit 28 HR's. I hate him. :)

WebScorpion
07-31-2007, 11:06 AM
Do we really have seventeen pages of discussion about trading two sucky pitchers for a sucky hitter? :confused: I think Wayne was just bored with the inactivity...he prolly put together a blockbuster package for Saltalamacchia and has received no reply. Someone needs to tell him that sometimes no answer IS an answer. I think he's being outbid all over the place. Hey Wayne, offer Dunn AND Hatte for Salty and a minor leaguer...try for guys with cool names like a SS named Elvis or a LHP named Cole. ;) Rumor has it that you've got to do better than Mark Texiera if you want Salty. :eek: