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View Full Version : Cueto in July...



Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 05:45 PM
5gs, 3-1, 2.37, 30.ip, 21h, 5bb, 37k (leads the Southern League for strikeouts this month)

Chi-Town Red
07-28-2007, 05:47 PM
hes coming along nicely...lets hope he finishes strong, and gets a shot at AAA next year

KeyMastur
07-28-2007, 05:51 PM
he's better than homer bailey...you guys jock bailey way too much

UC_Ken
07-28-2007, 06:04 PM
He may be a better minor league pitcher than Bailey but Bailey has the frame of a power pitcher. Cueto may not have the build to be a 230 IP guy. Maybe he beats the odds and ends up being the next Oswalt. Anyway I'd still bet on Bailey to be the more succesful in the majors but I'm glad we have them both.

mth123
07-28-2007, 06:13 PM
I hope one becomes K-Rod.

Matt700wlw
07-28-2007, 06:17 PM
he's better than homer bailey...you guys jock bailey way too much

I've heard that as well....and I'm not talking from message board posters or other fans...

KeyMastur
07-28-2007, 06:48 PM
He may be a better minor league pitcher than Bailey but Bailey has the frame of a power pitcher. Cueto may not have the build to be a 230 IP guy. Maybe he beats the odds and ends up being the next Oswalt. Anyway I'd still bet on Bailey to be the more succesful in the majors but I'm glad we have them both.
really ?? wow, i'd like to see the games you've been watching where Homer pitches...

he's got 1 pitch - a fastball - than he can at most times throw for stirkes. you can't live off a heater only in the big leagues. they'll eat you alive. both is off-speed pitches need work and the biggest of them all - he doesn't know how to pitch......

cueto throws 95+ also, don't forget that, with a slider and change-up he can throw for a strike.

texasdave
07-28-2007, 09:39 PM
My starting pitcher can beat up your starting pitcher. =)~

dougdirt
07-29-2007, 02:29 AM
Homer Bailey > Johnny Cueto.

He is better now (well if healthy) and he will be better in the future as well. Cueto is very good. Homer is just better, especially when healthy, which I am unsure he has been since April (lets not forget he has been on the DL twice this year for a strained groin... so I am willing to be he was not completely healthy since the first time he went on the DL for it).

icehole3
07-29-2007, 07:56 AM
I wish they would lock Bailey and Mario Soto in a room together for the whole winter.

KeyMastur
07-29-2007, 01:27 PM
Homer Bailey > Johnny Cueto.

He is better now (well if healthy) and he will be better in the future as well. Cueto is very good. Homer is just better, especially when healthy, which I am unsure he has been since April (lets not forget he has been on the DL twice this year for a strained groin... so I am willing to be he was not completely healthy since the first time he went on the DL for it).

haha...funniest comment of the year right there in bold

like i said, you guys jock homer way too much....

you say he's better now....in what sense ?? better stuff ? smarter pitcher (if you say yes on this comment i might as well streak across great american tonight). all you say is he's good and have nothing to back it up. i'm betting all you've seen is cueto's numbers and homer actually pitch on tv or maybe been to a game.

Screwball
07-29-2007, 01:49 PM
haha...funniest comment of the year right there in bold

like i said, you guys jock homer way too much....

you say he's better now....in what sense ?? better stuff ? smarter pitcher (if you say yes on this comment i might as well streak across great american tonight). all you say is he's good and have nothing to back it up. i'm betting all you've seen is cueto's numbers and homer actually pitch on tv or maybe been to a game.

Wow. Just wow. You do realize Homer and Cueto are the same age, yet Bailey is 2 levels ahead of him right now, right? Imagine the difference in numbers if Cueto was in the bigs and Homer was still in AA.

cincrazy
07-29-2007, 01:56 PM
This is one of the more pointless arguments I've ever seen on Redszone. Who cares who is better than who? They're BOTH under our control for the forseeable future, and they're both, good arms. So why exactly are we arguing?

And for those of you that are eating Homer Bailey alive, it was his first year in the big leagues, and he's been battling a groin injury. Give him a break. Johan Santana had an ERA over 6.00 in 86 IP his first year in the majors. I'd say he ended up doing all right for himself, no?

KeyMastur
07-29-2007, 02:05 PM
Wow. Just wow. You do realize Homer and Cueto are the same age, yet Bailey is 2 levels ahead of him right now, right? Imagine the difference in numbers if Cueto was in the bigs and Homer was still in AA.
2 levels ahead ?? why cause homer failed to be the Reds savior this year when he was called up and displayed a nice 6.99 ERA ?? you still really wanna count his putrid major league stats as another level ?? ok, i'll give you that one. he got called up. was he ready ?? (i'll bet you say yes, when it's clear the answer is / was no - he was promoted b/c 1. fan pressure 2. jerry's job in jeopardy 3. just happened to need someone to start). check out livingston - not as electric of stuff, but knows how to pitch.

ok since i'm sure you're a stat rat, let's compare numbers....

Homer (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=456701)

Cueto (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=456501)

hmm....nice IP::BB:K ratio Homer has there.

KeyMastur
07-29-2007, 02:08 PM
This is one of the more pointless arguments I've ever seen on Redszone. Who cares who is better than who? They're BOTH under our control for the forseeable future, and they're both, good arms. So why exactly are we arguing?

And for those of you that are eating Homer Bailey alive, it was his first year in the big leagues, and he's been battling a groin injury. Give him a break. Johan Santana had an ERA over 6.00 in 86 IP his first year in the majors. I'd say he ended up doing all right for himself, no?
i'm just tired of seeing everyone jock homer for a savior....

nate
07-29-2007, 02:09 PM
i'm just tired of seeing everyone jock homer for a savior....

We know, Mrs. Cueto.

KeyMastur
07-29-2007, 02:12 PM
We know, Mrs. Cueto.
ha...not even close....

cincrazy
07-29-2007, 02:16 PM
I don't think anyone is trying to "jock" Homer for a savior. This just happens to be a rotation that badly needs pitching, and Homer has a great arm, and has potential for the future. It's natural to be excited. The guy has had a few bad months in his first time through the major leagues. Hardly enough reason to write him off.

But I do agree with your point about Cueto, he is a better pitcher than Bailey. As far as who has more potential, that might be another story, but Cueto is light years ahead of Bailey in some aspects of pitching.

dougdirt
07-29-2007, 02:55 PM
haha...funniest comment of the year right there in bold

like i said, you guys jock homer way too much....

you say he's better now....in what sense ?? better stuff ? smarter pitcher (if you say yes on this comment i might as well streak across great american tonight). all you say is he's good and have nothing to back it up. i'm betting all you've seen is cueto's numbers and homer actually pitch on tv or maybe been to a game.

Stuff - Homer by a landlide.

Command - Cueto, but not by as much as it has shown this year because I am pretty confident that Homers injury was messing with his command. Still, a healthy Homer doesn't have the command Cueto does.

Velocity - Homer by a little.

Size/projectability - Homer, although I am not too worried at all about Cueto's size, although I wonder how his fastball will be handled by more experienced guys with the lack of downward plane he gets.

The only thing Cueto has better than Homer is his control, and while control is important I think when Homer is healthy (and he hasnt been for the last 6 weeks according to comments he has made recently) that Homer's control is fine. Not that Johnny isnt a very good pitcher, he is. He will probably be making the top 40 of top prospect lists all offseason, which is no small feat.

I have seen Johnny throw probably 60+ innings in person or on TV. I have seen Homer throw a little more than that. I have plenty to back up my statement.

JaxRed
07-29-2007, 03:02 PM
Baseball America's Top 25 Prospects as of July 16.....

Bailey #5 , Cueto not even in the "Just Missed" which added another 10 names or so.

jojo
07-29-2007, 03:03 PM
Stuff - Homer by a landlide.

Command - Cueto, but not by as much as it has shown this year because I am pretty confident that Homers injury was messing with his command. Still, a healthy Homer doesn't have the command Cueto does.

Velocity - Homer by a little.

Size/projectability - Homer, although I am not too worried at all about Cueto's size, although I wonder how his fastball will be handled by more experienced guys with the lack of downward plane he gets.

The only thing Cueto has better than Homer is his control, and while control is important I think when Homer is healthy (and he hasnt been for the last 6 weeks according to comments he has made recently) that Homer's control is fine. Not that Johnny isnt a very good pitcher, he is. He will probably be making the top 40 of top prospect lists all offseason, which is no small feat.

I have seen Johnny throw probably 60+ innings in person or on TV. I have seen Homer throw a little more than that. I have plenty to back up my statement.

Yep. Homer is clearly the more projectable arm.

TOBTTReds
07-29-2007, 04:03 PM
both is off-speed pitches need work and the biggest of them all - he doesn't know how to pitch......



You bolded it, not me. But he knows how to pitch probably better than any Reds pitcher right now outside of Harang. He understands pitching pretty darn well. Although he knows how to pitch, doesn't mean he can show it easily. When his command is poor, it is hard for him to show that he knows how to pitch.

Caveat Emperor
07-29-2007, 04:58 PM
Baseball America's Top 25 Prospects as of July 16.....

Bailey #5 , Cueto not even in the "Just Missed" which added another 10 names or so.

In fairness to Cueto, if any publication is going to ding him points for being undersized and not fitting the prototypical pitcher image, its going to be BA, IMO.

I like what Cueto has done thus far, but he's the type of guy that I'm not going to get terribly excited about until I see what he does against AAA hitters on a regular basis.

KeyMastur
07-30-2007, 01:32 AM
You bolded it, not me. But he knows how to pitch probably better than any Reds pitcher right now outside of Harang. He understands pitching pretty darn well. Although he knows how to pitch, doesn't mean he can show it easily. When his command is poor, it is hard for him to show that he knows how to pitch.
what ???????? hahaha. that's a good joke. thanks. was havin a rough day.

you're tellin me he's smarter than bronson, lohse, santos, weathers, and yes, even livingston ??

i'm not talkin command. i'm talkin brains.

KeyMastur
07-30-2007, 01:33 AM
In fairness to Cueto, if any publication is going to ding him points for being undersized and not fitting the prototypical pitcher image, its going to be BA, IMO.

I like what Cueto has done thus far, but he's the type of guy that I'm not going to get terribly excited about until I see what he does against AAA hitters on a regular basis.
thank you

BA (Baseball America) will make or break a kids career. you get a good report from them, other people (like the homer-mania people) will start to believe the hype too

TOBTTReds
07-30-2007, 02:06 AM
what ???????? hahaha. that's a good joke. thanks. was havin a rough day.

you're tellin me he's smarter than bronson, lohse, santos, weathers, and yes, even livingston ??

i'm not talkin command. i'm talkin brains.

I'll give you Weathers.

dougdirt
07-30-2007, 02:16 AM
thank you

BA (Baseball America) will make or break a kids career. you get a good report from them, other people (like the homer-mania people) will start to believe the hype too

BA likes Mr Cueto just fine. There is only so much 'hype' than can be created. In the end, everyone makes up their own mind on something for this reason or that reason. I go with my eyes.... not what BA says, although what BA says is actually what teams and teams scouts tell them that helps them form an opinion based on what they see themselves.

dougdirt
07-30-2007, 02:21 AM
Also Keymastur, You seem to laugh at everything you disagree with that someone else says. It started off with me saying Bailey was better than Cueto, then when Aves stated his opinion that was also funny.

You blasted me for my comment and said it was baseless because I probably have never seen Cueto pitch. Then when I came back to you with why I said what I said, and noted how much I have seen each guy pitch you seemingly had no response.

I have a question for you. What makes you any more qualified than me, or Aves, or anyone else for that matter that a simple opinion of who is a better pitcher is laughable if we disagree with you?

Topcat
07-30-2007, 02:56 AM
I just think it is awesome that the Red's have count them 2 ! Pitchers that will become serious difference makers in the future. God I love the thought!

DoogMinAmo
07-30-2007, 03:42 AM
I'll give you Weathers.

Sometimes I feel Bronson overthinks himself when he pitches, but that is another topic for another time.

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:24 AM
Dude, you are looking at Homer's Major league stint, and saying he isn't as good as Cueto. If Cueto were up there now, he would have the same problems. They are both probably a little too young right now, although I'd rather see Homer working on his curve (which is a plus plus pitch, if you actually have watched Homer pitch before, his fastball isn't his only plus plus pitch) against major leaguers than minor leaguers, but thats another argument. As they've said before, stats aren't everything. If they are to you, lets take a look at this...

Homer's Major League Stats=Little Success
Cueto's Major League Stats=No Success

Take a look at their FSL stats

Homer-
13 GS, 3.31 ERA, 10.1 K/9, 2.8 BB/9

Cueto-
26 GS, 3.40 ERA, 8.3 K/9, 2.8 BB/9


And Southern League Stats

Homer-
13 GS, 1.59 ERA, 10.2 K/9, 3.7 BB/9

Cueto-
6 GS, 2.23 ERA, 10.6 K/9, 1.73 BB/9



So take what you will from that, but honestly, this is like comparing Votto to Bruce. Everyone knows the real answer (Bruce, Bailey), but we can argue all day, even though it doesnt matter, they're all going to trememdously help this ballclub.

jojo
07-30-2007, 08:24 AM
thank you

BA (Baseball America) will make or break a kids career. you get a good report from them, other people (like the homer-mania people) will start to believe the hype too

BA has an impact of zilch on a minor leaguer's career. FO's have their own scouting reports.

The hype is largely for us.

M2
07-30-2007, 09:51 AM
The world doesn't sort itself out neatly according to BA prospect lists. Homer Bailey very well could turn out to be the better pitcher than Cueto. Then again Cueto, with his ridiculous arm speed and eat-em-alive slider, could be the superior pitcher.

Who knows, maybe Carlos Fisher will be better than both of them. Stranger things have happened. Jeremy Bonderman and Rich Harden have been outdone by Aaron Harang to date. That wasn't supposed within the realm of possibility. You'd have been labeled a certifiable lunatic if you had picked Harang as the lead dog through 2007. Yet that's exactly the way it's played out.

JaxRed
07-30-2007, 10:18 AM
"The world doesn't sort itself out neatly according to BA prospect lists."


Nobody said it does.... But Key is laughing at anyone that thinks Homer is better than Cueto. Yet Bailey is the consensus pick among professionals as the better prospect. (not just BA).

Could Cueto end up better? Sure. But right now Bailey is the better prospect in the eyes of actual talent people.

M2
07-30-2007, 11:10 AM
Nobody said it does.... But Key is laughing at anyone that thinks Homer is better than Cueto.

And a host of others are laughing back. I think the absolute surety on both sides is misplaced.


Yet Bailey is the consensus pick among professionals as the better prospect. (not just BA).

Could Cueto end up better? Sure. But right now Bailey is the better prospect in the eyes of actual talent people.

That's nice. When the actual talent people begin to get these things right with some reasonable degree of accuracy, I'll put more stock in what they have to say. The baseball industry is extremely fickle when it comes to young talent. To a degree it's like asking pre-teen girls which boy idol they prefer. The answer is sure to change soon enough.

I understand Bailey's the favorite with the talent oddsmakers at this time, the supposed stub in the stables, but two of the best starting pitchers I've ever seen are short fellows - Pedro Martinez and Johan Santana.

My general take is that Bailey's been overrated. That doesn't mean he's not going to be an ace pitcher someday, just that he's never been quite as complete a package as his hype has insisted. That's not his fault. He's just a kid trying to make it in an extremely competitive game. IMO, his hype has done his development no favors. Cueto's going to get the 150+ IP in the minors that Bailey could sorely use at this juncture ... and that might be the sort of thing that tips the scales. Might not be.

The next three years are going to be major tests for both of these kids. To an extent they have to survive these tweener years in order to come out the other side a quality pitcher. The hardest work is in front of them.

nate
07-30-2007, 12:04 PM
Is it possible to like both players and be happy that they both play for the Reds?

KeyMastur
07-30-2007, 12:05 PM
Is it possible to like both players and be happy that they both play for the Reds?

no, you have to pick one or the other :)

KeyMastur
07-30-2007, 12:07 PM
That's nice. When the actual talent people begin to get these things right with some reasonable degree of accuracy, I'll put more stock in what they have to say. The baseball industry is extremely fickle when it comes to young talent. To a degree it's like asking pre-teen girls which boy idol they prefer. The answer is sure to change soon enough.

I understand Bailey's the favorite with the talent oddsmakers at this time, the supposed stub in the stables, but two of the best starting pitchers I've ever seen are short fellows - Pedro Martinez and Johan Santana.

My general take is that Bailey's been overrated. That doesn't mean he's not going to be an ace pitcher someday, just that he's never been quite as complete a package as his hype has insisted. That's not his fault. He's just a kid trying to make it in an extremely competitive game. IMO, his hype has done his development no favors. Cueto's going to get the 150+ IP in the minors that Bailey could sorely use at this juncture ... and that might be the sort of thing that tips the scales. Might not be.

The next three years are going to be major tests for both of these kids. To an extent they have to survive these tweener years in order to come out the other side a quality pitcher. The hardest work is in front of them.
i like the way this guy thinks....

it's what i've been tryin to say is homer is over-rated and shouldn't be as hyped up as people think. and that cueto WILL be a better pitcher than homer.

KeyMastur
07-30-2007, 12:08 PM
Dude, you are looking at Homer's Major league stint, and saying he isn't as good as Cueto. If Cueto were up there now, he would have the same problems. They are both probably a little too young right now, although I'd rather see Homer working on his curve (which is a plus plus pitch, if you actually have watched Homer pitch before, his fastball isn't his only plus plus pitch) against major leaguers than minor leaguers, but thats another argument. As they've said before, stats aren't everything. If they are to you, lets take a look at this...

his curve is a plus pitch, but can't throw it for strikes when he wants. only thing he can throw for a strike when he needs is a fastball....can't live in the bigs off just that.

dougdirt
07-30-2007, 12:12 PM
i like the way this guy thinks....

it's what i've been tryin to say is homer is over-rated and shouldn't be as hyped up as people think. and that cueto WILL be a better pitcher than homer.

Other people can believe 'hype' all they want. I believe what I see from Homer. I believe what I see from Johnny. I believe Homer > Johnny. Not a slight on Johnny, he just isn't as good now, or do I think he will be as good in the future (assuming both players stay healthy). It has nothing to do with any hype at all.

cincrazy
07-30-2007, 02:46 PM
I just want to win. And if both of these individuals can help us do that, then who cares who is better than who. Can't we all just agree on that?