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BearcatShane
07-30-2007, 10:37 AM
I didn't actually hear this myself but someone told me that Kurkjian was on ESPN radio this morning and he said there is a good possibilty Dunn goes to Washington for Cordero and Rouch and talks are heating up between the Reds and the Mariners about Griffey.



What do you guys think about Dunn for Cordero and Rauch? On the surface it looks like a decent return for Dunn but I don't know. If the Reds KNOW they are not going to pick up Dunn's option I guess you take the best deal avaliable and this deal would not be THAT bad.





Oh, and apparantly Kurkjian said the Dunn deal could be finalized before the game tomorrow.

Puig Your Red
07-30-2007, 10:44 AM
Dunn for Cordero and Rauch?

We're not going to do it again are we?

BearcatShane
07-30-2007, 10:47 AM
Dunn for Griffey and Rauch?

We're not going to do it again are we?



Did you mean Dunn for Cordero and Rouch?

Puig Your Red
07-30-2007, 10:52 AM
Also, I hope the Dunn deal would be finalized before the game tomorrow considering the trade deadline is 3 hours before the game.

Report seems fishy.

Degenerate39
07-30-2007, 10:52 AM
I'm not willing to trade Dunn until Bruce is Major League ready.

Carin4Narron
07-30-2007, 10:53 AM
Someone should tell Bowden that the MLB is not fantasy baseball, he has Larkin Boone and Rijo in the front office and Wanger,Lopez,Young,Kearns in the field. Now he wants Dunn?

He didn't win in Cincy with those guys and he won't win in DC with them.

redrum
07-30-2007, 10:53 AM
I hate the idea of trading for relievers. Especially ones that have made their mark in a pitchers park. Especially ones that are getting expensive. Especially ones that have shouldered a heavy work load. Especially ones being pawned off by Jim Bowden.

foltza
07-30-2007, 10:53 AM
that's dumb, unless cordero will then be moved for prospects. stop with the band-aids. we're more than one or two players from contending. we need prospects

Degenerate39
07-30-2007, 10:55 AM
Someone should tell Bowden that the MLB is not fantasy baseball, he has Larkin Boone and Rijo in the front office and Wanger,Lopez,Young,Kearns in the field. Now he wants Dunn?

He didn't win in Cincy with those guys and he won't win in DC with them.

Doesn't he have Deangelo Jimenez too?

Dracodave
07-30-2007, 10:56 AM
Color me unimpressed by both moves. Dunn for Codero and Rauch..? And what young starter?

And unless Griffey can bring back a young starter or catcher and two other prospects

Fil3232
07-30-2007, 11:05 AM
If Dunn goes to DC for that return, the days of Dan O'Brien will suddenly look like the golden years of Reds baseball.

Cordero is an awful, awful target for the Reds. (Kind of like Majewski, but more expensive).

OesterPoster
07-30-2007, 11:09 AM
Oh please. This is just Jimbo floating out his trade ideas through his normal channel of leaks.

IamWallaman
07-30-2007, 11:17 AM
No way K would go for that little after the pricetag was set so high.

IF Dunn were to get traded for something like that (or a comparable move) Jocketty is as good as hired.

BearcatShane
07-30-2007, 11:26 AM
Maybe the Reds KNOW they are not picking up Dunn's option so they will take the best deal avaliable. Would you rather have Cordero and Rauch or draft picks?

runfreelrun
07-30-2007, 11:33 AM
Come on guys, get what you can for Dunn and let's move on. He is a homerun hitter with numerous liabilities. He shouldnt play against lefties, because he has no clue against them. I am sick and tired of people defending him, claiming he is worth more then what we could get, but lets be honest he isn't. His value is higher with the reds then with anyone else in baseball, we just need to except it, dump him and use his 13 million wisely this offseason.

improbus
07-30-2007, 11:33 AM
Let's not get too crazy here. Have any of you looked at Cordero's numbers? They're pretty strong. He's never had an ERA over 3.2, he actually has a better road ERA than home (which negates the whole, he plays in a spacious ballpark complaint). His career numbers are the same against righties and lefties (both hit about .215). He's used to making alot of appearances, which he would have to do. When he sees RISP, his BA against is .164.

Plus, think about it this way. You would have two Reds teams to root for, Reds West and Reds East (and they could lose a combined 200 games...)

Finally, IMO, this team would have 5-6 (minimum) more wins with Weathers in the 8th and Cordero in the 9th, with or w/o Dunn. Opponents are hitting .321 w/ an OPS over .900 in the 8th. I don't care if you throw out Pujols and Ryan Howard, you will still lose games with that kind of pitching.

IamWallaman
07-30-2007, 11:37 AM
Maybe the Reds KNOW they are not picking up Dunn's option so they will take the best deal avaliable. Would you rather have Cordero and Rauch or draft picks?

How many more broken relievers can we horde from WSH? Rauch could be something but Cordero is a classic "pitcher's park phenom". Put those two in GABP regularly and watch the fireworks...

We simply can't afford to sell all our major pieces for moderately successful relief pitching. We should be replenishing that supply from the minors...

mound_patrol
07-30-2007, 11:40 AM
Everything I read about Cordero is that you should stay away from Cordero. He's a guy that has to use maximum effort and they said his good years are behind him. Just what i've read about him. I dont know much about rauch except he use to be a good prospect.

BearcatShane
07-30-2007, 11:43 AM
How many more broken relievers can we horde from WSH? Rauch could be something but Cordero is a classic "pitcher's park phenom". Put those two in GABP regularly and watch the fireworks...

We simply can't afford to sell all our major pieces for moderately successful relief pitching. We should be replenishing that supply from the minors...


Cordero: 3.21 ERA at home, 1.96 ERA on the road.


http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=430101&statType=2

Fil3232
07-30-2007, 11:44 AM
Come on guys, get what you can for Dunn and let's move on. He is a homerun hitter with numerous liabilities. He shouldnt play against lefties, because he has no clue against them. I am sick and tired of people defending him, claiming he is worth more then what we could get, but lets be honest he isn't. His value is higher with the reds then with anyone else in baseball, we just need to except it, dump him and use his 13 million wisely this offseason.

And I am sick and tired of people ripping Dunn even though all the statistical evidence points to Dunn being every bit worth $13 million.

improbus
07-30-2007, 11:45 AM
How many more broken relievers can we horde from WSH? Rauch could be something but Cordero is a classic "pitcher's park phenom". Put those two in GABP regularly and watch the fireworks...

We simply can't afford to sell all our major pieces for moderately successful relief pitching. We should be replenishing that supply from the minors...

Cordero's only 25 and Rauch is 28, not exactly Stanton and Cormier...

Look, I'm hesitant to trade with ol' Leatherpants, but alot of people feel we got the better of the last deal, and the two guys we got have been hurt almost the whole time.
The downside, both are arbitration eligible this off-season

44Magnum
07-30-2007, 11:48 AM
I would take Rauch and Cordero for Dunn.

BearcatShane
07-30-2007, 11:48 AM
And I am sick and tired of people ripping Dunn even though all the statistical evidence points to Dunn being every bit worth $13 million.



Is Dunn worth 13 million? Yes. I just think some people think the money could be spent on other areas to improve the team.

ChatterRed
07-30-2007, 11:48 AM
Some people on here can't face the true facts, even when you repeat them over and over. Cordero pitches better ON THE ROAD. Hmmm.

Yet people still want to rip the guy. He's TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OLD. He's not 40. Good Gracious.

Fil3232
07-30-2007, 11:49 AM
I'd rather take draft picks than Cordero and Rauch. Cordero is homer happy, doesn't have very strong K rates, and is/will be expensive. Rauch is almost 30 and seems to have a ceiling as a middle reliever.

An absolute atrocious package for Dunn. I have faith that Krivsky isn't this dumb though. Hopefully he is floating this to get LAA or another team to up an offer.

Fil3232
07-30-2007, 11:51 AM
Is Dunn worth 13 million? Yes. I just think some people think the money could be spent on other areas to improve the team.

The Reds need to improve their pitching. Have you seent he FA list of pitchers for this offseason? There is absolutely nothing that will help the Reds next year outside of Zambrano (who won't be wearing Red). If anything, the Reds will dump a ton of offense to overpay for mediocre pitching.

mound_patrol
07-30-2007, 11:53 AM
Cordero is a fly ball pitcher. Not good for the GABP.
Can someone tell me about Rauch?

Heath
07-30-2007, 11:59 AM
TK's got the banana phone from Bowden to "lower" the Dunn price.

Nothing here to see.

IMO, if the rumored Jocketty move to Cinti is legit, I would not be shocked from some backdoor comments what the "new guy" would do.

Redsnake
07-30-2007, 12:00 PM
Dunn for Cordero and Rauch. Then use the $13 million on Tori Hunter then I would be happy.
The bullpen just got better, the defense just got better and with the exceptions of homeruns the offense is better.

Heath
07-30-2007, 12:01 PM
Cordero is a fly ball pitcher. Not good for the GABP.
Can someone tell me about Rauch?

He's tall.

jimbo
07-30-2007, 12:16 PM
Cordero is homer happy....

He has only given up 6 home runs this season in 51.0 innings. I wouldn't exactly call that "homer happy."

His careeer ERA/WHIP/BAA is 2.62/1.15/.215. Those are nice numbers in my book, plus he's only 25. I wouldn't totally discount this possible trade. I'm still on the fence about it, but adding an established closer is a must and this trade would do just that.

durl
07-30-2007, 12:23 PM
Dunn is an enigma, isn't he? He hits for power and has a good OBP. It's those dang strikeouts and his inability to get runners in that drives most people batty. And do we want to pay $13 million for an OBP consisting mainly of walks? He's not going to generate runs by walking.

Seriously, I'm on the fence regarding his $13 million price tag. It seems pricey for a guy who's only RBIs come primarily via the long ball.

What it comes down to is the question of can we win more games with better pitching than we can with Dunn hitting homers? Honestly, I believe we can.

Fil3232
07-30-2007, 12:26 PM
He has only given up 6 home runs this season in 51.0 innings. I wouldn't exactly call that "homer happy."

His careeer ERA/WHIP/BAA is 2.62/1.15/.215. Those are nice numbers in my book, plus he's only 25. I wouldn't totally discount this possible trade. I'm still on the fence about it, but adding an established closer is a must and this trade would do just that.

For a 4.5 million pitcher, pitching a lot of his innings in a pitcher's paradise, that is pretty homer-happy to me. And while his career stats look nice, his K/9 has steadily decreased, his BB rate has risen, he is giving up more homers than early in his career, and his FIP has been 4.65 and 4.40 last year and this year, respectively. Add in that he is getting expensive and this is a return that Krivsky shouldn't touch with a 10 ft. pole.

BLEEDS
07-30-2007, 12:28 PM
I'm not willing to trade Dunn until Bruce is Major League ready.

Bruce is Jr's replacement, not Dunns.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

jimbo
07-30-2007, 12:36 PM
For a 4.5 million pitcher, pitching a lot of his innings in a pitcher's paradise, that is pretty homer-happy to me. And while his career stats look nice, his K/9 has steadily decreased, his BB rate has risen, he is giving up more homers than early in his career, and his FIP has been 4.65 and 4.40 last year and this year, respectively. Add in that he is getting expensive and this is a return that Krivsky shouldn't touch with a 10 ft. pole.

Good post After comparing Cordero's numbers to his peers, he does give up more home runs. I guess it just doesn't seem like much when you first look at it. I'm not sure I'd characterize it as you did, but I now have my doubts about putting him in GABP.

Degenerate39
07-30-2007, 12:41 PM
Bruce is Jr's replacement, not Dunns.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I know but I wouldn't want to trade either of them until he's ready.

REDblooded
07-30-2007, 12:45 PM
I'll take Rauch and Cordero for Dunn in a heartbeat. A coked up, ephedrine laced heartbeat.

Krawhitham
07-30-2007, 12:52 PM
as much as I would like to see Dunn gone, I would never trade with leather pants again

BLEEDS
07-30-2007, 01:02 PM
This is the trade I WOULD make for Dunn - a CHEAP (relatively) YOUNG PROVEN closer.

We'd have him locked up - through arbitration - until 2009. We only have Dunn through 2008.

This would be IDEAL - IFF we are Dedicated to going out and getting a FA LF-er (or CF and move Hamilton/Freel to Left) with some pop. $10-11M or so... Byrnes, Rowand, etc...

Then, we should still have $15-$20M to spend on Starting Pitching.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BigREDSfaninKY
07-30-2007, 01:05 PM
Cordero pitching in GABP for his career: 7 games, 0-1 1 sv, 3.12 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 8.2 IP/5 H/3 ER/5 BB/10 K/.167 BAA. Not as bad as I would've imagined.

kaldaniels
07-30-2007, 01:10 PM
This is the trade I WOULD make for Dunn - a CHEAP (relatively) YOUNG PROVEN closer.

We'd have him locked up - through arbitration - until 2009. We only have Dunn through 2008.

This would be IDEAL - IFF we are Dedicated to going out and getting a FA LF-er (or CF and move Hamilton/Freel to Left) with some pop. $10-11M or so... Byrnes, Rowand, etc...

Then, we should still have $15-$20M to spend on Starting Pitching.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bleeds, could I get some more details on your opinion. I understand you are leading the march to sign Zambrano...however I see him staying with the Cubs, and furthermore, I don't see the Reds winning a bidding war for him, despite the 15M you just cleared up. Are all your eggs in Zambrano's nest or do you have other SP in mind???

Also, any examples of young proven closers you mentioned???

I like what you've done with your numbers, but kinda need a few more names to see where you are going with this.

Jim
07-30-2007, 01:16 PM
as much as I would like to see Dunn gone, I would never trade with leather pants again

I agree. I will always be leery about a deal with Bowden.

BuckU
07-30-2007, 01:21 PM
Rauch is almost 30 and seems to have a ceiling as a middle reliever.

This has me scratching my head....considering the Reds biggest weakness is....um.....middle relief

AmarilloRed
07-30-2007, 01:25 PM
as much as I would like to see Dunn gone, I would never trade with leather pants again

I think we should all be wary of trading with Bowden. I would have a medical test done on both players before I would even think about any future deal with Bowden. As for the trade, I am not sure I would want to make any trade where we did not receive a outfielder back in the trade , unless the Reds plan on Votto or Bruce playing left field.

Jay Bruce
07-30-2007, 01:52 PM
I'd rather take draft picks than Cordero and Rauch. Cordero is homer happy, doesn't have very strong K rates, and is/will be expensive. Rauch is almost 30 and seems to have a ceiling as a middle reliever.

An absolute atrocious package for Dunn. I have faith that Krivsky isn't this dumb though. Hopefully he is floating this to get LAA or another team to up an offer.

I completely agree with your opinion on this deal. Cordero is massively overrated, while Rauch is also likely to give up his fair share of homers, last year giving up 1.28 HR/9. This year, it is down to 0.63/9, but his HR/ Flyball ratio is an unsustainable 4.6%, showing that he has been pretty lucky this year in that regard. If he is traded to the Reds, you will probably see a return to the norm, and a lot of homers. Think Majewski and his BAPIP equalizing after the trade. Stay away from this deal.

Fil3232
07-30-2007, 02:04 PM
This has me scratching my head....considering the Reds biggest weakness is....um.....middle relief


Middle relief is not something you trade one of your best offensive players to get. It is something you develop, cheaply, from within. In a nutshell, it is a player like Clavin Medlock. Too bad Wayne peddled him for an Out Machine.

redrum
07-30-2007, 02:17 PM
This has me scratching my head....considering the Reds biggest weakness is....um.....middle relief

Relievers are made, not born. The Reds biggest problem is that they don't have enough starting pitching to push some into relief. They may have some quality relievers already (Belise and Loshe), they just happen to be starting games.

Wayne has spent a year targeting other teams minor league and major league relievers when, IMO, he should have been acquiring as many potential Joe Nathan's as possible.

Homer Bailey
07-30-2007, 02:18 PM
Middle relief is not something you trade one of your best offensive players to get. It is something you develop, cheaply, from within. In a nutshell, it is a player like Clavin Medlock. Too bad Wayne peddled him for an Out Machine.

Well said Big Ticket.... :cool:

BuckU
07-30-2007, 02:58 PM
Middle relief is not something you trade one of your best offensive players to get. It is something you develop, cheaply, from within. In a nutshell, it is a player like Clavin Medlock. Too bad Wayne peddled him for an Out Machine.

Best offensive player indeed, but also one who might not be with the team next year anyway. So why not trade him for the most glaring weakness on the team (middle relief & closer).

Ideally, next year you take the Dunn 13 million and bring in some right handed pop.....ideally.

improbus
07-30-2007, 03:02 PM
Well said Big Ticket.... :cool:

And we've done a fine job of developing middle relievers.....

Homer Bailey
07-30-2007, 03:05 PM
And we've done a fine job of developing middle relievers.....

And a great job of trading for them as well......

We have some talented young pitchers that everyone writes off because they are rookies. I'm not saying that this bullpen staff is sufficient and are not doing so well only because they are young, but it's not like we don't have ANYONE...

Also I was poking fun at fil because I just figured out who he is :p:

uoduck1017
07-30-2007, 03:16 PM
What do you guys think about Dunn for Cordero and Rauch?

:barf: I think that pretty much sums it up.

BLEEDS
07-30-2007, 03:53 PM
Bleeds, could I get some more details on your opinion. I understand you are leading the march to sign Zambrano...however I see him staying with the Cubs, and furthermore, I don't see the Reds winning a bidding war for him, despite the 15M you just cleared up. Are all your eggs in Zambrano's nest or do you have other SP in mind???

Also, any examples of young proven closers you mentioned???

I like what you've done with your numbers, but kinda need a few more names to see where you are going with this.

I've outlined it a few times. In a Perfect world, yes I would sign Z - probably give us about a 20-25 game Win swing, since we wouldn't have to face him as an opposing pitcher too!! - but there are a number of 2nd tier pitchers out there we could go for. Jason Jennings and Freddy Garcia I've mentioned before. They are relatively still on the upside of the young/proven slope. The other proven guys are on the old side, and younger guys are obviously not that proven. Those guys can be had for $8-12M... right in our ballpark...

Hope that helps.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
07-30-2007, 05:30 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if Dunn was traded for his best friend Kearns? Kearns and Cordero?

Jones1
07-30-2007, 05:38 PM
These guys numbers are pretty good and we all know Dunn isnt getting resigned so why not get something for him now instead of nothing later and use his 13 mil to pay for some more pitching next year!

If this trade happens it will be one of the best ever made by any Reds GM..

Degenerate39
07-30-2007, 05:50 PM
These guys numbers are pretty good and we all know Dunn isnt getting resigned so why not get something for him now instead of nothing later and use his 13 mil to pay for some more pitching next year!

If this trade happens it will be one of the best ever made by any Reds GM..

And how do "we" know he's not getting re-signed?

Muggerd
07-30-2007, 05:52 PM
Id trade adam dunn for chone figgins :D

Dracodave
07-30-2007, 05:55 PM
Id trade adam dunn for chone figgins :D

Dunn for Chone Figgings, Dustin Mosely, and a PTBNL maybe.

Muggerd
07-30-2007, 05:58 PM
Dunn for Chone Figgings, Dustin Mosely, and a PTBNL maybe.

What if its Figgins and Irvin Santana? Im pretty sure the Angels offered something like that earlier but that was just a rumor.

Dracodave
07-30-2007, 06:00 PM
What if its Figgins and Irvin Santana? Im pretty sure the Angels offered something like that earlier but that was just a rumor.

SANTANA!? NO! NO NO!!!!! His road era is HUGE and He is HORRIBLE outside of pitching parks...

I stray from pitchers with road ERA's over 5 and his is almost 9.


Home 4 2 3.42 8 8 0 0 0 0 52.2 52 22 20 6 3 14 38
Away 9 8.79 11 11 0 0 0 0 57.1 84 60 56 17 4 28 49

Muggerd
07-30-2007, 06:04 PM
SANTANA!? NO! NO NO!!!!! His road era is HUGE and He is HORRIBLE outside of pitching parks...

I stray from pitchers with road ERA's over 5 and his is almost 9.


Home 4 2 3.42 8 8 0 0 0 0 52.2 52 22 20 6 3 14 38
Away 9 8.79 11 11 0 0 0 0 57.1 84 60 56 17 4 28 49


The angels park isnt a pitchers park though :dunno:

tripleaaaron
07-30-2007, 07:08 PM
If Balester is involved I take the deal, we can call it square on the maj injury as well.

AmarilloRed
07-31-2007, 01:36 AM
I think we should all calm down and wait until the trade deadline. We can all overreact if he is actually traded.:D

larryboy
07-31-2007, 10:42 AM
I think Dunn stays and Griffey puts on the 24 once again. There is a lot of activity in the M's camp.

eastkyred
07-31-2007, 11:36 AM
I think getting Cordero and Rouch would be the best return we could hope for from Dunn. If we aren't picking up his option, and I wouldn't, this is a good deal. We tried to trade for bullpen help last year and it hasn't panned out, but that just means we still desperately need to improve our bullpen. The main piece this bullpen needs is a legit closer, and I think Cordero can fill that role for years to come. This is much better than letting Dunn go and getting draft picks.