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Reds Fanatic
07-30-2007, 03:39 PM
This is from CNNSI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/07/30/lohse.phillies/index.html



The Reds have traded right-hander Kyle Lohse to the Phillies for a minor leaguer.

Lohse, 29, is 6-12 with a 4.58 ERA this season. His best year was with the Twins in 2003, when he went 14-11 with a 4.61 ERA.

I don't know who the minor leaguer is.

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2007, 03:41 PM
Anyone see this coming?

Redny
07-30-2007, 03:42 PM
Matt Maloney, according to Fox

GIK
07-30-2007, 03:42 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7075268


The Phillies, seeking to upgrade their rotation, have acquired Reds right-hander Kyle Lohse for Class AA left-hander Matt Maloney, according to a major-league source.

M2
07-30-2007, 03:43 PM
Honestly, shouldn't they have the info like what the other half of the trade is, before they push the story?

Anyway, Lohse to the Phillies is hardly shocking.

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2007, 03:43 PM
Matt Maloneys Stats (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Matthew%20Maloney&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=476011)

BRM
07-30-2007, 03:44 PM
Is Maloney a stud or a dud?

RBA
07-30-2007, 03:44 PM
WHIP 1.29

puca
07-30-2007, 03:45 PM
My understanding is that he is a tall soft tossing lefty.

NC Reds
07-30-2007, 03:46 PM
Wow, I can't imagine actually trading for Lohse.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Matthew%20Maloney&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=476011

Here is the link to Maloney's stats. He looks sleepy.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2007, 03:46 PM
Here is some info on Maloney:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Matthew%20Maloney&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=476011



Stats
ERA:
3.94
W-L:
9-7
SV:
0
SO:
115

PlayerFull Name: Matthew M. Maloney
Born: 01/16/1984
Birthplace: Huron, OH
College: Mississippi
Height: 6' 4"
Weight: 220
Bats: L
Throws: L


2007 Season
Team League W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
REA EAS 9 7 3.94 21 21 1 0 0 125.2 117 70 55 13 45 115 0.87 .246
Minors 9 7 3.94 21 21 1 0 0 125.2 117 70 55 13 45 115 0.87 .246

Last 10 Games: (Current team only)
Date OPP W L ERA SV IP H ER BB SO
Jun 05 HAR 1 0 1.50 0 6.0 3 1 1 7
Jun 10 TRE 0 1 5.40 0 5.0 5 3 1 6
Jun 15 @TRE 0 1 1.35 0 6.2 3 1 4 5
Jun 20 BIN 1 0 2.57 0 7.0 5 2 4 5
Jun 25 ALT 1 0 2.35 0 7.2 4 2 2 7
Jun 30 NBR 1 0 6.43 0 7.0 8 5 0 10
Jul 05 ERI 0 0 2.25 0 4.0 3 1 1 5
Jul 16 @ERI 0 1 6.35 0 5.2 8 4 4 5
Jul 21 @AKR 1 0 1.04 0 8.2 4 1 2 10
Jul 26 TRE 1 0 5.14 0 7.0 9 4 0 7
Totals 6 3 3.34 0 64.2 52 24 19 67

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2007, 03:46 PM
He's an Ohio boy!

BRM
07-30-2007, 03:46 PM
He was a 3rd round pick in 2005.

M2
07-30-2007, 03:46 PM
My understanding is that he is a tall soft tossing lefty.

That's the book on him. I guess the hope is that if you're tall, perhaps you'll find some more giddyup on that fastball.

RBA
07-30-2007, 03:47 PM
Individual Pitching Stats
Club (League) Class W L ERA G GS CG SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BB/9 SO/9 AVG WHIP STR%
Reading Phillies (EL) AA 9 7 3.94 21 21 1 0 125.2 117 70 55 13 45 115 5 3.22 8.24 .246 1.29 ---
MINOR LEAGUE TOTALS 9 7 3.94 21 21 1 0 125.2 117 70 55 13 45 115 5 3.22 8.24 .246 1.29 ---
Stats Legend

membengal
07-30-2007, 03:47 PM
Found this take on a blog called Phuture Phillies:

http://phuturephillies.com/tag/players/matt-maloney/

Maloney, Matt, LHP (age 23) Grade = B

On paper, Maloney should be an A++. He put up a sparking 2.03 ERA in 168.2 IP in 2006, allowed only 120 hits and struck out 180 batters, en route to helping lead the Blueclaws to the SAL title. However, there are some problems, in my view. First, he was 22 the entire year, on the high end of the prospect spectrum. College pitchers should dominate at low A, and Maloney did. The second problem, which ties in with the third, is his walk rate. He walked 73 in the 168.2 IP, which is a lot of walks. This ties in with the third problem, his mediocre stuff. He has a deceptive delivery (but it looks max effort to me, which could be a problem), and he relies on his slow curveball to get outs. The problem is, at higher levels, batters are less likely to swing at breaking balls out of the zone. Most guys with fringe stuff are pinpoint control guys, like Kevin Slowey and Jeremy Sowers, and scouts even question their success at higher levels. For a guy with an 86-89 MPH fastball, even for a lefty, I think he’s going to need to really refine his control at the higher levels, or he’s going to hit a wall quickly. Because he clearly didn’t belong in the SAL, we’ll have to see how he does against better competition. I’m not writing him off, though my writeup seems harsh, but I want to see him dominate (or at least pitch well) at higher levels against more advanced hitters. If his control improves, so will his grade.

Ceiling: Because of the lack of a high quality fastball or above average stuff, his ceiling is probably as a 4th/5th starter.

Floor: Brian Mazone without the steroids?

Conclusion: Finesse pitchers are really tough to figure out and project. If his control improves, he’s got a much better shot to reach his ceiling. If it doesn’t improve, he looks more like a AAAA pitcher, or maybe a possible reliever down the road. His 2007 should land him in Reading, where he’ll be the proper age for his level, and will be facing much more advanced prospects. If he repeats his numbers from 2006, he’ll be a legit prospect, and the ceiling might even improve.

Take that for what it's worth. I am guessing that guy (who authored that take on that blog) has as good a handle on his fave team's prospects as anyone. That post was from February 2007.

nate
07-30-2007, 03:47 PM
My understanding is that he is a tall soft tossing lefty.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_476011.jpg

Dude, I love to watch the spin on the ball!

Danny Serafini
07-30-2007, 03:47 PM
Maloney seems to be well thought of:

Awards/Honors:
07/11/2007 Eastern League Mid-Season All-Star
09/22/2006 Baseball America Low Class A All-Star
08/29/2006 South Atlantic League Most Outstanding Pitcher
08/29/2006 South Atlantic League Post-Season All-Star
06/20/2006 South Atlantic League Mid-Season All-Star

He's 9-7 this year, 3.94, 115K/45BB in 125.2 innings. 6-3, 3.34 in his past 10 starts.

Crash Davis
07-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Rated by John Sickels as the #5 Phillies prospect going into this season.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2006/12/18/13314/032

6'4" lefty with a pretty good K rate but prone to the longball.

Joseph
07-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Is the Easter League a pitchers or hitters league?

JaxRed
07-30-2007, 03:49 PM
So.... Dumatrait, Elizardo, or Gosling?

jojo
07-30-2007, 03:49 PM
Is Maloney a stud or a dud?

He's not Lohse.... :cool:

BRM
07-30-2007, 03:50 PM
He's not Lohse.... :cool:

Good point.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 03:50 PM
My intial reaction is that he appears top be a better prospect than Zach Ward, so I'm okay with it.

Decent K numbers this year. Not that impressed wwith the WHIP. 3rd round pick in 2005 draft. Has averaged a K an inning through 331 minor league innings coming into the year. Lefty.

Dig it.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Matt-Maloney.shtml

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2007, 03:51 PM
So.... Dumatrait, Elizardo, or Gosling?

Dumatrait and Gosling probably will both be in the rotation at least til Harang comes back.

Roy Tucker
07-30-2007, 03:51 PM
Looks like pretty decent return for a guy who is as good as gone at the end of the season.

RedsManRick
07-30-2007, 03:52 PM
I haven't looked at any of the posted stats, but I'm going to guess he's a slightly older lefty who doesn't miss many bats.

After looking, I'm pleasantly surprised. Nice pickup.

puca
07-30-2007, 03:52 PM
He's performed well in the low minors and decent in the mid-minors. The rap is that he doesn't have major league stuff or the control to compensate. I'm not going to cry over trading Kyle Loshe, but this guy doesn't excite me in the least.

nate
07-30-2007, 03:52 PM
He's not Lohse.... :cool:

There can only be one!

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2007, 03:52 PM
Arroyo
Livingston
Belisle
Dumatrait
Gosling/Ramirez

Wow!

BRM
07-30-2007, 03:53 PM
From mlbtraderumors.



Wayne Krivsky did well here, as Maloney was the Phillies' ninth best prospect entering the seasona according to Baseball America. He's more about deception and pitch selection that velocity or electric stuff. His upside is pegged as a #4 starter.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 03:53 PM
Throws L
Age 23
6' 4"
220 lbs.



Year Tm Lg IP BABIP WHIP ERA H9 BB9 K9 HR9
2005 BAT 1A 37.0 .364 1.43 3.89 10.1 5.3 4.3 1.5
2006 LWD 1B 168.1 .267 1.15 2.03 8.2 5.3 5.5 0.7

All from BP

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 03:53 PM
The Reds need left handed pitching. We shall see if Maloney was undervalued or not. Big guys like him putting it together at 23 is not rare. He could be Kirk Rueter or Jerry Sowers I guess.

His last 10 starts have been solid.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2007, 03:54 PM
I'd say Maloney is a pretty good return for Lohse. Big lefty, good K/9, unpolished, but still fairly young.

BRM
07-30-2007, 03:54 PM
Rotoworld's take.



That's just not particularly impressive for either side. Maloney ranked behind fellow lefties Josh Outman and J.A. Happ and was probably no better than the team's eighth or ninth best pitching prospect. The Phillies needed a veteran starter, but Lohse is a poor fit for their ballpark with his flyball tendencies. He'll replace J.D. Durbin in the rotation.

Danny Serafini
07-30-2007, 03:55 PM
So.... Dumatrait, Elizardo, or Gosling?

Lohse was scheduled to go tomorrow, and tomorrow was Dumatrait's day in Louisville. Sure lines up well for him.

IslandRed
07-30-2007, 03:55 PM
We all knew Lohse had an "or best offer" price tag on him, so in that context, I like the return.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 03:55 PM
Criterion #1: he comes from an organization that's produced good MLB arms from its system in the last quarter of a century.

Check.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2007, 03:56 PM
Rated by John Sickels as the #5 Phillies prospect going into this season.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2006/12/18/13314/032

6'4" lefty with a pretty good K rate but prone to the longball.

Milton?

Prone to the longball in GABP?

gonelong
07-30-2007, 03:56 PM
I'd say Maloney is a pretty good return for Lohse. Big lefty, live arm, unpolished, but still fairly young.


I have no problem with this trade. You are not going to get alot for Lohse and this kid might give you some servicable innnings as a starter someday. Worth the flyer and price paid IMO.

GL

NJReds
07-30-2007, 03:56 PM
Would we have received draft picks if Lohse had signed elsewhere at the end of the year?

The_jbh
07-30-2007, 03:56 PM
Throws a sinkerball... strikes guys out ... seems like a pitcher who could succeed at GABP?

I would have hoped for a little bit of a better prospect considering there isn't much SP out there but whatever I'll take it if the front office had no desire to look at a 2 or 3 yr deal. We couldn't get a high pick for him, hes barely a C compensation

Kc61
07-30-2007, 03:57 PM
His K/BB numbers at AA are excellent. 115 Ks, 45 BBs in 125 innings. Very promising. Downside is that he's allowed 13 home runs. Obvious red flag for GABP.

Overall, seems like Reds did well essentially trading Zach Ward for Maloney.

Lack of velocity doesn't bother me if he misses bats, which he seems to do.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 03:58 PM
His numbers aren't "excellent" by any stretch--but considering Lohse is Lohse, and soon he'll be Lohse Part II: the Expensive and Bad Lohse, what's not to like, really?

osuceltic
07-30-2007, 03:58 PM
With the caveat that it's unlikely that any pitching prospect traded at this deadline will ever be as good as Kyle Lohse (just reality), the Reds did well here. They clearly didn't have any desire to re-sign Lohse. They got a guy who has a chance to make it. Is he a sure thing? Of course not. Those guys don't get traded for Kyle Lohse.

Having said that, the major league team is worse today than it was yesterday. I know Lohse wasn't popular, but he had some outstanding starts. As a back-end starter, many teams do much worse. But it had become a cost/benefit issue.

So I chalk this up as a solid single for Wayne, with the potential to be much better pending development of the young pitcher.

Now let's see what he can do with the really big fish (Dunn).

BRM
07-30-2007, 04:00 PM
His numbers aren't "excellent" by any stretch--but considering Lohse is Lohse, and soon he'll be Lohse Part II: the Expensive and Bad Lohse, what's not to like, really?

I agree. I'm happy with this deal.

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:00 PM
A trade by WK most are agreeing with?

Is this RZ?

I like it. Like what another poster said, he seems better than Ward, so that's what it's all about.

Kc61
07-30-2007, 04:00 PM
His numbers aren't "excellent" by any stretch--but considering Lohse is Lohse, and soon he'll be Lohse Part II: the Expensive and Bad Lohse, what's not to like, really?

His K/BB is indeed excellent. That's what I said.

His WHIP of 1.29 for a starter with 125 innings is also excellent, or at least very good.

His ERA is not excellent.

His home runs allowed is not excellent.

Puffy
07-30-2007, 04:01 PM
Kyle Lohse is gone - we could have gotten Syd Finch back and I'd be happy.

Yeah.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2007, 04:01 PM
I have no problem with this trade. You are not going to get alot for Lohse and this kid might give you some servicable innnings as a starter someday. Worth the flyer and price paid IMO.

GL

Exactly. He's not Phillip Hughes, but he's got some upside.

deltachi8
07-30-2007, 04:01 PM
Addition by subtraction

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 04:02 PM
His K/BB isn't excellent. None of it is "excellent." Slightly better than average. Probably below average if he makes it to the show.

Puffy
07-30-2007, 04:02 PM
His K/BB are indeed excellent. That's what I said.

His WHIP of 1.29 for a starter with 125 innings is also excellent, or at least very good.

His ERA is not excellent.

His home runs allowed is not excellent.

Just to pick nits, but a 1.30 WHIP is never "excellent" - in any context. Its OK I guess, but not "excellent"

flyer85
07-30-2007, 04:03 PM
The return is fine ... especially when you realize that next year Lohse is likley to be the 3 yr 25M dollar pitcher that Milton was in 2005.

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:03 PM
A weird thing is, is ERA vs. Lefties is WAY lower than against righties. His HR Rate is way lower against Lefties than righties. But, his K rate is much better against righties than lefties.

Stormy
07-30-2007, 04:04 PM
He's not Lohse.... :cool:

That alone makes it a good trade, and the fact that there is the potential for some refinement of his apparently modest arsenal at least gives the move a chance at future dividends. You almost have to like the move for that alone, and for the finality it puts in any chances of trying to extend Lohse. :)

lollipopcurve
07-30-2007, 04:04 PM
That's just not particularly impressive for either side.

Rotoworld....:rolleyes:

Let's see... can a trade be bad for both teams?

Maloney has had a couple of double-digit K games recently -- in AA this year having skipped high-A. Another viable low/mid ceiling arm in the high minors -- like the lefhandedness, too.

Sorry to see Lohse, go, though. He's got some talent, and when he was on he was fun to watch. I foresee a significant downgrade in the rotation for the rest of the year.

bucksfan2
07-30-2007, 04:04 PM
A trade by WK most are agreeing with?

Is this RZ?

I like it. Like what another poster said, he seems better than Ward, so that's what it's all about.

I think its more that people disliked Lohse more than Krivsky.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2007, 04:04 PM
According to Trent Maloney will report to AA Chattanooga.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2007, 04:06 PM
Maloney had some impressive numbers last year and this year:

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/



In 2006, in just his second professional season, he was named South Atlantic League Pitcher of the Year after going 16-9 with a 2.03 ERA and 180 strikeouts in 27 starts and 168.2 innings pitched for Lakewood. He led the SAL in victories, innings pitched and strikeouts.

This year he leads the Eastern League in innings pitched and ranks fourth in strikeouts.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 04:07 PM
I think its more that people disliked Lohse more than Krivsky.

I liked Lohse and I still like this deal.

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:07 PM
He last pitched 4 days ago, so hopefully we get to see him start tomorrow.

EDIT: I take that back, that's Cueto's day, so who knows.

traderumor
07-30-2007, 04:07 PM
The return is fine ... especially when you realize that next year Lohse is likley to be the 3 yr 25M dollar pitcher that Milton was in 2005....which we will gladly let the KC Royals pay...

bucksfan2
07-30-2007, 04:08 PM
I think Lohse for the Phillies could be simliar to what Jeff Weaver was for the Cards last year.

puca
07-30-2007, 04:10 PM
His K/BB numbers at AA are excellent. 115 Ks, 45 BBs in 125 innings. Very promising. Downside is that he's allowed 13 home runs. Obvious red flag for GABP.

Overall, seems like Reds did well essentially trading Zach Ward for Maloney.

Lack of velocity doesn't bother me if he misses bats, which he seems to do.

If he misses bats mostly because A and AA hitters are willing to chase pitches out of the strike zone, then he's fool's gold. Those misses will go away by the time he hits the majors, forcing him to throw his less than average stuff in the strike zone. I've never seen him pitch, but unless he has some killer off speed stuff (and I haven't really heard that he does), improves his location or his velocity, then the will struggle to make it to the bigs.

Kc61
07-30-2007, 04:11 PM
Just to pick nits, but a 1.30 WHIP is never "excellent" - in any context. Its OK I guess, but not "excellent"

I think a 1.29 WHIP for a starting pitcher is pretty darn good. If it goes up to 1.35 in the major leagues, again as a starter throwing a lot of innings, I think that is pretty good too, good enough to be a back end of rotation regular starter.

By comparison, Harang is at 1.19, which is excellent by any standard. Arroyo, however, is 1.41. Matt Belisle, who RedsZone adores, is at 1.46. So Mr. Maloney's 1.29 looks pretty good to me.

Relievers, of course, require lower WHIP numbers because they pitch fewer innings and are expected to allow few base runners. But even for a reliever, 1.29 is decent.

As for strikeouts, Mr. Maloney is 4th in the Eastern League in that category. 115 Ks in 125 innings looks pretty good to me and shows me that he "misses bats."

deltachi8
07-30-2007, 04:11 PM
Also, with the Braves deal and this one, more pressure is put on the Mets to do something. and perhapps overpay to do so.

Doc. Scott
07-30-2007, 04:12 PM
This reminds me of when the Reds traded Dmitri Young to Detroit or Wily Mo Pena to Boston.

In other words, trading someone to a place at a time when his chance to make the trade look like a mistake is as low as possible. Citizens' Bank Park (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=HRFactor&season=2007) is, as of this moment, the only park in the majors that gives up more homers than GABP.

Three PHI starters have given up even more homers than Lohse's 16 (Hamels, Eaton, and Moyer). Only Matt Belisle on the Reds gave up more, and he served up just one more than that.

Kyle's also in the top ten (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=groundToFlyRatio&split=0&league=nl&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=pitch3&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=100&qual=false&count=41) in the NL in highest FB-to-GB ratio among pitchers with 100 innings.

This may be slightly humorous to watch.

Roy Tucker
07-30-2007, 04:14 PM
I think Lohse for the Phillies could be simliar to what Jeff Weaver was for the Cards last year.

Lohse always seemed to have a haphazard approach to the game so you never knew which version you were going to get.

When he's on, he is a good MLB pitcher. When he's off, he's horrid. The probelm is, you only get about 1 good start per 4 starts. I always thought with a little more diligence and preparation, he could up that percentage.

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 04:14 PM
Also, with the Braves deal and this one, more pressure is put on the Mets to do something. and perhapps overpay to do so.

The Mets are on the verge of trading for Twins 2B Luis Castillo, and are thought not to be giving up anyone of significance to get him.

lollipopcurve
07-30-2007, 04:16 PM
The probelm is, you only get about 1 good start per 4 starts.

The routine misconception about Lohse on this board. He's at, or slightly above 50% in quality starts for this year.

wheels
07-30-2007, 04:17 PM
That alone makes it a good trade, and the fact that there is the potential for some refinement of his apparently modest arsenal at least gives the move a chance at future dividends. You almost have to like the move for that alone, and for the finality it puts in any chances of trying to extend Lohse. :)

Sounds a lot like another big tall goofy looking guy that came around a few years ago.

Hmmmm....Wonder what happened to that guy?

dfs
07-30-2007, 04:19 PM
...FWIW I would rather have Matt Maloney at this point than Zach Ward.

Ward was the bait used to get Lohse. It didn't work out on the field, but in the end the organization has a 22 year old lefty at the AA level which is about where Ward would have been if things had worked for him. Of course in the meantime, Ward imploded.

Even grudgingly, you have to give a thumbs up to Wayne on this one.

RANDY IN INDY
07-30-2007, 04:19 PM
I hope that he brings a lot with him, because the Reds are not particularly adept at developing starting pitchers.

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 04:20 PM
Sounds a lot like another big tall goofy looking guy that came around a few years ago.

Hmmmm....Wonder what happened to that guy?

You rang, Mrs. Addams?

http://www.lonecoder.org/images/061010_lurch.gif

wheels
07-30-2007, 04:20 PM
...FWIW I would rather have Matt Maloney at this point than Zach Ward.

Ward was the bait used to get Lohse. It didn't work out on the field, but in the end the organization has a 22 year old lefty at the AA level which is about where Ward would have been if things had worked for him. Of course in the meantime, Ward imploded.

Even grudgingly, you have to give a thumbs up to Wayne on this one.

Hey, there's no "grudgingly" about it.

This is a solid move, and I'm happy with it.

pedro
07-30-2007, 04:21 PM
I think Lohse for the Phillies could be simliar to what Jeff Weaver was for the Cards last year.

Or more likely what Jeff Weaver was to the Mariners at the beginning of this year.

wheels
07-30-2007, 04:22 PM
You rang, Mrs. Addams?

http://www.lonecoder.org/images/061010_lurch.gif


:thumbup:

traderumor
07-30-2007, 04:24 PM
...FWIW I would rather have Matt Maloney at this point than Zach Ward.

Ward was the bait used to get Lohse. It didn't work out on the field, but in the end the organization has a 22 year old lefty at the AA level which is about where Ward would have been if things had worked for him. Of course in the meantime, Ward imploded.

Even grudgingly, you have to give a thumbs up to Wayne on this one.I don't think a 3.03 ERA, 1.17 WHIP and 3:1 K/BB is exactly imploding. His W/L record tells us that he is on a bad team or is EXTREMELY unlucky. I'd say the entire Lohse ordeal is spinning wheels, which is par for the course for the last decade.

Big Klu
07-30-2007, 04:24 PM
He last pitched 4 days ago, so hopefully we get to see him start tomorrow.

EDIT: I take that back, that's Cueto's day, so who knows.

With today's off day, Livingston could go on regular rest tomorrow, followed by Arroyo on his regular turn Wednesday. Harang's turn would be scheduled to go Thursday, so the Reds could bring somebody up to take his place--assuming he can't go (which is what I have heard).

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 04:25 PM
With today's off day, Livingston could go on regular rest tomorrow, followed by Arroyo on his regular turn Wednesday. Harang's turn would be scheduled to go Thursday, so the Reds could bring somebody up to take his place--assuming he can't go (which is what I have heard).

Last I heard, Harang was supposed to go on Friday (if possible). He definitely will not make Thursday's start.

Tom Servo
07-30-2007, 04:26 PM
No qualms here, Lohse needed to be flipped and Maloney seems like an interesting arm. Good job, Wayne.

cincrazy
07-30-2007, 04:26 PM
A solid deal. Even if the guy doesn't work out as a starter, maybe he finds a spot in the 'pen as a situational lefty.

Doc. Scott
07-30-2007, 04:26 PM
...FWIW I would rather have Matt Maloney at this point than Zach Ward.

Ward was the bait used to get Lohse. It didn't work out on the field, but in the end the organization has a 22 year old lefty at the AA level which is about where Ward would have been if things had worked for him. Of course in the meantime, Ward imploded.

Even grudgingly, you have to give a thumbs up to Wayne on this one.

Ward didn't implode, but he is a level behind Maloney. Your reference is to Zach's poor six-start stint in Low-A after the Reds dealt him. He may have a ludicrous 2-14 record this year, but a 3.03 ERA ain't bad. Even if it's in the pitcher-friendly FSL.

Interestingly, Ward and Maloney are exactly two days apart in age.

The flip does look fairly promising from the numbers, but it's a matter of preference: a right-hander without success at AA but higher-grade stuff or a left-hander with more success and less stuff? Maloney has clearly shown starter-level endurance and consistency, while Ward is considered more likely a reliever (but is still starting for now).

In the meantime, the Reds got a season's worth of 4.50ish starts from Lohse for a tad over $4 million. Not exciting, but probably more economical than virtually any non-scrap heap FA signing we could have pulled off.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 04:26 PM
I don't think a 3.03 ERA, 1.17 WHIP and 3:1 K/BB is exactly imploding. His W/L record tells us that he is on a bad team or is EXTREMELY unlucky. I'd say the entire Lohse ordeal is spinning wheels, which is par for the course for the last decade.

In low A.

dfs
07-30-2007, 04:27 PM
I don't think a 3.03 ERA, 1.17 WHIP and 3:1 K/BB is exactly imploding. His W/L record tells us that he is on a bad team or is EXTREMELY unlucky. I'd say the entire Lohse ordeal is spinning wheels, which is par for the course for the last decade.
Fair enough. It's more than I thought Krivsky was going to get for Lohse.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2007, 04:27 PM
With today's off day, Livingston could go on regular rest tomorrow, followed by Arroyo on his regular turn Wednesday. Harang's turn would be scheduled to go Thursday, so the Reds could bring somebody up to take his place--assuming he can't go (which is what I have heard).
Harang is not even making the trip to Washington so the earliest you will see him is Pittsburgh and they may even hold him out until the Los Angeles series next week.

flyer85
07-30-2007, 04:27 PM
as a starter Lohse was serviceable ... the issue is you don't want to pay much for it.

paulrichjr
07-30-2007, 04:28 PM
What is the deal with Krivs and the Phils? Does it not seem like we make a lot of deals with them? Wait...maybe it isn't just Krivs...didn't DanO also trade with them a lot? Have we become the 1960 Kansas City (Yanks) to the Phils?

I have to admit that I am surprised that this is the most we could get for Loshe. I honestly believe that Loshe could get hot down the stretch and really pitch like Weaver did last year (big contract coming next). He was one of the best starters available so I'm not expecting much for Dunn if he is traded.

Doc. Scott
07-30-2007, 04:28 PM
In low A.

Nope. High-A.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 04:31 PM
Nope. High-A.

Doesn't matter, I meant lower than AA. Ward is a sinkerballer who lost his power stuff. His numbers in low A starting show me he may get rocked in AA. The one thing Ward does have going for him possibly is a bullpen move and possible recovery of that power stuff.

wally post
07-30-2007, 04:31 PM
I love the trade. Good job WK. Now... let's trade some more to those mets, yanks, red sox or rangers (Salty might be available, yes?)

pedro
07-30-2007, 04:31 PM
Ward didn't implode, but he is a level behind Maloney. Your reference is to Zach's poor six-start stint in Low-A after the Reds dealt him. He may have a ludicrous 2-14 record this year, but a 3.03 ERA ain't bad. Even if it's in the pitcher-friendly FSL.

Interestingly, Ward and Maloney are exactly two days apart in age.

The flip does look fairly promising from the numbers, but it's a matter of preference: a right-hander without success at AA but higher-grade stuff or a left-hander with more success and less stuff? Maloney has clearly shown starter-level endurance and consistency, while Ward is considered more likely a reliever (but is still starting for now).

In the meantime, the Reds got a season's worth of 4.50ish starts from Lohse for a tad over $4 million. Not exciting, but probably more economical than virtually any non-scrap heap FA signing we could have pulled off.

I think that's a pretty good take on it.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 04:32 PM
Some comments from the phllies fanboard on the phils mlb website (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-phillies&tid=52256) FWIW


Gave up too much. Loshe is a FA at the end of they year, and he's not all that great to begin with. Maloney might not have been a top prospect, but they should have given a lesser one.


Another brilliant pitching aquisition by Hawaiian Shirt Guy and The Rube.


I agree with you. Another Gillick Scrap Heap Pickup.


Terrible trade. We could've brought Maloney up and he's been better than Lohse. Maloney would've been in the rotation by 09' IMO. I think Maloney will be a very good Major league startin pitcher. That was a trade just to be trading.


Typical of the Phillies to acquire garbage.... so when they finish .5 game out of the wild card this year, it will come back to a typical Phillies organization.... CHEAP!!

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 04:32 PM
Again, from Rotoworld.com:


Reds acquired LHP Matt Maloney from the Phillies for RHP Kyle Lohse.

Maloney has a chance to make it as a No. 4 starter, but we would have taken our chances with a supplemental first-round pick first. The 23-year-old Maloney was 9-7 with a 3.94 ERA, 117 H and 115/45 K/BB in 125 2/3 IP for Double-A Reading. He averages about 87 mph with his fastball and doesn't get a lot of grounders. He does have a nice set of secondary pitches, including a plus changeup, but they won't result in as many strikeouts in the majors as they have in the minors. He's not much of a fantasy prospect


As an add, I didn't think the Reds would get a supplemental first-round pick if they let Lohse walk. I didn't think they'd get compensation for him leaving. Still, I don't think the Reds wanted to gamble on arbitration with him anyway...

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:33 PM
With today's off day, Livingston could go on regular rest tomorrow, followed by Arroyo on his regular turn Wednesday. Harang's turn would be scheduled to go Thursday, so the Reds could bring somebody up to take his place--assuming he can't go (which is what I have heard).

I meant in Chattanooga. Cueto is scheduled to go tomorow, as was Maloney, so we'll see who pitches when.

PuffyPig
07-30-2007, 04:33 PM
I think Lohse for the Phillies could be simliar to what Jeff Weaver was for the Cards last year.

What's that, a very bad pitcher who has one real good world series game and makes everyone forget how bad he pitched all season?

Big Klu
07-30-2007, 04:36 PM
Last I heard, Harang was supposed to go on Friday (if possible). He definitely will not make Thursday's start.

That's what I thought. So the Reds could go with Livingston on Tuesday, Arroyo on Wednesday, then bring up somebody from Louisville on Thursday.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2007, 04:37 PM
I'm a little dissapointed with the return.

Maloney is alright. But he's a middling talent that still has a way to go before he can really be considered major league material. It seems like quite a bit of patience will be required for a modest return.

I also did value Lohse more than most on the board. He's basically a league average starter, and there were very few of those available right now. I'm very surprised that a contender in need of a decent starter wasn't willing to up the ante considering how low of a price was for Lohse.

Maloney is pretty unexciting. Low ceiling. Average numbers. I do like the fact that he's 6-4 and throws with his left hand. I think that gives him a a pretty reasonable shot of polishing up his repetoire enough to move up the chain. I'm really more surprised that this is all Lohse could bring in this market.

Chip R
07-30-2007, 04:38 PM
What's that, a very bad pitcher who has one real good world series game and makes everyone forget how bad he pitched all season?


Yep. Everyone except the team(s) that traded him and the team he was just with.

I'm good with this trade. I never wanted Lohse anyway so the Reds are only on the hook for about $2.8M of his salary.

redsmetz
07-30-2007, 04:38 PM
What is the deal with Krivs and the Phils? Does it not seem like we make a lot of deals with them? Wait...maybe it isn't just Krivs...didn't DanO also trade with them a lot? Have we become the 1960 Kansas City (Yanks) to the Phils?

We've only made two trades with the Phillies since Krivsky came on board. Cormier and Ryan Franklin - they also made two waiver claims from the Phils last year (Matt Kata and Rick White). They're one of about half the clubs in MLB that we've traded with since Krivsky's started.

Ravenlord
07-30-2007, 04:39 PM
That's the book on him. I guess the hope is that if you're tall, perhaps you'll find some more giddyup on that fastball.

i believe the logic is that the release point should be closer to the plate giving added velocity from the hitter's perspective.

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:40 PM
The last soft tossing lefty we got from the Phils? Livingston

pedro
07-30-2007, 04:41 PM
The last soft tossing lefty we got from the Phils? Livingston

mariners

NJReds
07-30-2007, 04:42 PM
I'm a little dissapointed with the return.

Maloney is alright. But he's a middling talent that still has a way to go before he can really be considered major league material. It seems like quite a bit of patience will be required for a modest return.

I also did value Lohse more than most on the board. He's basically a league average starter, and there were very few of those available right now. I'm very surprised that a contender in need of a decent starter wasn't willing to up the ante considering how low of a price was for Lohse.

Maloney is pretty unexciting. Low ceiling. Average numbers. I do like the fact that he's 6-4 and throws with his left hand. I think that gives him a a pretty reasonable shot of polishing up his repetoire enough to move up the chain. I'm really more surprised that this is all Lohse could bring in this market.

I agree. MLBtraderumors.com had a story about the Mariners willingness to deal AAA C Jeff Clement. Although it was a longshot, I was hoping to see him land in Cincinnati for Lohse.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 04:43 PM
The last soft tossing lefty we got from the Phils? Livingston

Cormier.

traderumor
07-30-2007, 04:43 PM
In low A.Fort Myers was referred to as High A, which is FSL, same as Sarasota, I suppose.

11larkin11
07-30-2007, 04:45 PM
mariners

12/14/06 MLB nullified the waiver claim for LHP Bobby Livingston by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and the subsequent trade to the Philadelphia Phillies and assigned him to the Cincinnati Reds.




So, kind of.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2007, 04:46 PM
Will Conine bring a similar return?

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 04:47 PM
Will Conine bring a similar return?

I hope Conine brings a position player, preferably a AA RH OFer with some OBP skills and a good glove.

Or, a high rated relief arm.

BRM
07-30-2007, 04:48 PM
12/14/06 MLB nullified the waiver claim for LHP Bobby Livingston by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and the subsequent trade to the Philadelphia Phillies and assigned him to the Cincinnati Reds.




So, kind of.

He was essentially claimed off waivers from Seattle.

redsmetz
07-30-2007, 04:48 PM
The last soft tossing lefty we got from the Phils? Livingston

We claimed Livingston off waivers from Seattle after MLB voided the waiver claim by Tampa Bay and their subsequent trade of Livingston to the Phils.

lollipopcurve
07-30-2007, 04:50 PM
Will Conine bring a similar return?

Don't think so. It'll be less. Hatteberg could bring an interesting prospect, but I'm guessing the Reds want him around next year to mentor Votto.

Ltlabner
07-30-2007, 04:51 PM
What is the deal with Krivs and the Phils? Does it not seem like we make a lot of deals with them?

Uhhhh No.

No more so than the A's in terms of perception.

And certinally not more so than the Twins, which some love to accuse Kriv of having as #1 on his speed dial.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2007, 04:51 PM
Here is some more on Maloney from John Fay's blog:



Here's an excerpt of an article Joe Adelizzi of the Asbury Park Press wrote in advance of the South Atlantic League All-Star Game in June 2006.....

"Perhaps it goes back to his Little League days when his father, Joe, of Huron, Ohio, began teaching him how to pitch.

'He was my coach and the first one to help me understand what pitching was about,' Maloney said. 'He didn't force me to be a pitcher. But when he saw that was what I wanted to do, he guided me.'

His father taught him well, said BlueClaws manager Dave Huppert.

'He has three pitches, and he is close to mastering all of them,' said Huppert, a former catcher who has seen some top guys in his 30 years in the games.

Maloney knows everything works off the fastball. He is not overpowering, although he can break 90 on the radar guns around the league. But he understands the value of location. It has served him well.

'If I can move my fastball around in the strike zone it makes my curve and changeup more effective,' said Maloney, who is 6-4 and weighs 220 pounds. It is not one of those chiseled athletic bodies, but it seems like one made for pitching.

'He may not look very athletic, but he seems to know what he is doing on the mound,' said Murray Cook, a scout for the Boston Red Sox who has been following the BlueClaws for the last two weeks. 'He has mound presence, something rare at this level.'

Huppert senses something else about Maloney that he likes.

'He gets extra tough when men are on base. He goes to a level higher. That's an awful good sign,' Huppert said."

puca
07-30-2007, 04:51 PM
I hope Conine brings a position player, preferably a AA RH OFer with some OBP skills and a good glove.

Or, a high rated relief arm.

OBP doesn't appear to be much of a valuation point for Wayne. If he pays attention to it at all, it is way down on his list.

M2
07-30-2007, 04:52 PM
...FWIW I would rather have Matt Maloney at this point than Zach Ward.

Ward was the bait used to get Lohse. It didn't work out on the field, but in the end the organization has a 22 year old lefty at the AA level which is about where Ward would have been if things had worked for him. Of course in the meantime, Ward imploded.

Even grudgingly, you have to give a thumbs up to Wayne on this one.

I agree. It's not a sexy deal, but he shuffled for a more advanced (and seemingly better) prospect. Maloney's interesting and could be worth a rotation slot in 2009 or so.

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 04:54 PM
OBP doesn't appear to be much of a valuation point for Wayne. If he pays attention to it at all, it is way down on his list.

I agree. I said that's what I "hoped" Conine would bring in return. Realistically we could be looking to get the High A version of Jorge Cantu in return, or the 27 yr old AAA version of Maloney.

MartyFan
07-30-2007, 04:55 PM
I agree. It's not a sexy deal, but he shuffled for a more advanced (and seemingly better) prospect. Maloney's interesting and could be worth a rotation slot in 2009 or so.

Again, the words of SPECIAL K in my signature ring through on this trade today....

Please read below the line.

:beerme:

M2
07-30-2007, 04:55 PM
i believe the logic is that the release point should be closer to the plate giving added velocity from the hitter's perspective.

That and the larger frame should have some untapped leverage and leg drive.

BRM
07-30-2007, 04:56 PM
I hope Conine brings a position player, preferably a AA RH OFer with some OBP skills and a good glove.

Or, a high rated relief arm.

Would you settle for a BA driven, speedy outfielder with very little pop and little to no on-base skills?

redsmetz
07-30-2007, 05:01 PM
I just checked and see that Grant Jackson is the pitching coach in Chattanooga - I wonder if that will help with Maloney? He's done some good work, hasn't he?

Roy Tucker
07-30-2007, 05:01 PM
That and the larger frame should have some untapped leverage and leg drive.

I'll never forget the pitching advice that Don Gullett gave Pete Schourek to get some more giddyup on his fastball.... "Throw harder".

Red Leader
07-30-2007, 05:02 PM
Would you settle for a BA driven, speedy outfielder with very little pop and little to no on-base skills?

If it were my choice, probably not. If I'm Wayne, probably. Guys going to retire at the end of the year and not be worth squat to the Reds. Might as well cash his chips in now rather than hold them and go home with a pocketful of Chuck E. Cheese tokens.

Unassisted
07-30-2007, 05:04 PM
I like the trade. I definitely prefer it to overpaying for Lohse in the future. It would be painful to think of the Mr. Hyde money going Lohse's way every time he did his Dr. Jekyll act on the mound.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 05:05 PM
Interesting too that Maloney (#97) was taken 5 spots after the Reds took Ward (#92) in the 3rd round.

acredsfan
07-30-2007, 05:16 PM
In the big scheme of things, Lohse had to be traded. Anything with some MLB projectability is a win for the Reds the way I see it. What I find myself thinking is man, this is the first trade to effect the MLB roster, but I want something bigger. I don't necessarily want Dunn dealt, but I want a big move to talk about and think about, this one just isn't fun. The problem is that after the talk about the trade subsides, you have to live with the outcome no matter what. It's still a lot of fun to watch take place though.

PuffyPig
07-30-2007, 05:28 PM
I don't necessarily want Dunn dealt, but I want a big move to talk about and think about, this one just isn't fun.

That's were we differ. I only want moves that make us a better team (even if it makes us better only in the future).

I don't believe that a GM should be particularly worriend about trading to simply entertain us.

RedLegSuperStar
07-30-2007, 05:29 PM
Livingston is going to start tomorrow against the Nationals

- C. Trent

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2007, 05:30 PM
A big lefty with solid strikeout rates. Not a bad deal at all for Wayne. Now, hopefully Hatteberg and Conine are next. And Weathers too if the price is right.

redsrule2500
07-30-2007, 05:39 PM
eh, I liked Lohse. Oh well, not really a big trade, we'll see how it pans out.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 05:48 PM
Lohse may have been a league-average starter several years ago, but he's not there anymore. Really he's just benefitting from pitching in the weakest division in baseball. If he were anywhere else his OPSA would be up well over .800, his HRs allowed would be up, and his Ks would decrease. His next contract will carry him to the "non-smiling side" of 30.

Time to cash that lame horse in.

KronoRed
07-30-2007, 05:56 PM
Nice to see Lohse go, the return is at least a SP

KronoRed
07-30-2007, 05:56 PM
Would you settle for a BA driven, speedy outfielder with very little pop and little to no on-base skills?

I think we have enough, Hopper, Freel

Matt700wlw
07-30-2007, 06:02 PM
I have no complaints...Lohse is somebody else's concern now, the Reds get a young guy with some upside (who is also a lefty) and it opens the door for a young guy to get a look, like, let's say, Phil Dumatrait.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 06:14 PM
I think this trade puts Maloney #3 in terms of Reds top (starting) pitching prospects. I go with:

1. Bailey
2. Cueto

3. Maloney
4. Thompson
5. Wood
6. Pelland
7. Watson
8. Fisher

pedro
07-30-2007, 06:16 PM
I have no complaints...Lohse is somebody else's concern now, the Reds get a young guy with some upside (who is also a lefty) and it opens the door for a young guy to get a look, like, let's say, Phil Dumatrait.

I wouldn't be surprised if the guy they traded for gets a chance before Dumatrait.

M2
07-30-2007, 06:26 PM
I think this trade puts Maloney #3 in terms of Reds top (starting) pitching prospects. I go with:

1. Bailey
2. Cueto

3. Maloney
4. Thompson
5. Wood
6. Pelland
7. Watson
8. Fisher

I'd have it

1. Bailey
2. Cueto
3. Fisher
4. Maloney
5. Lecure
6. Wood
7. Viola
8. Roenicke

PuffyPig
07-30-2007, 06:33 PM
I'd have it

1. Bailey
2. Cueto
3. Fisher
4. Maloney
5. Lecure
6. Wood
7. Viola
8. Roenicke


Viola and Roenicke are relievers.

DoogMinAmo
07-30-2007, 06:35 PM
I think this trade puts Maloney #3 in terms of Reds top (starting) pitching prospects. I go with:

1. Bailey
2. Cueto

3. Maloney
4. Thompson
5. Wood
6. Pelland
7. Watson
8. Fisher


I am farely certain Pelland is now a reliever. That much being said, I would have Maloney lower and Fisher higher.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2007, 06:38 PM
I'd go:

Bailey
Cueto
Wood

Watson
Fisher
Maloney
LeCure

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2007, 06:48 PM
I'd go:

Homer Bailey
Johnny Cueto
Carlos Fisher
Matt Maloney
Sean Watson
Travis Wood
Sam Lecure

Wood would probably be three spots higher if healthy due to his stuff and potential.

If we're including relief prospects then I would add Josh Roenicke and Pedro Viola in somewhere in the top eight. I think both of those guys have a chance to be impact relievers in the major leagues, especially Pedro Viola, who sort of reminds me of Damaso Marte.

A little off topic, but I think Kyle Lotzkar will be the next stud prospect after Bailey and Cueto graduate to the minors.

Doc. Scott
07-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Doesn't matter, I meant lower than AA. Ward is a sinkerballer who lost his power stuff. His numbers in low A starting show me he may get rocked in AA. The one thing Ward does have going for him possibly is a bullpen move and possible recovery of that power stuff.

My guess is that Ward's projection as a reliever has more to do with the classic "lack of offspeed stuff" problem than anything else. It certainly isn't due to Zach's frame or any perceived durability or stamina issues.

It is true he hasn't been striking out many this year, but he did in Dayton last year before the trade. That "losing power stuff" thing is a new development.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 07:04 PM
I think that Bailey and Cueto project as relievers.

Blitz Dorsey
07-30-2007, 07:13 PM
Would we have received draft picks if Lohse had signed elsewhere at the end of the year?

Yes, at least one, maybe two. We got a first-round supplemental draft pick for losing Aurilia, and I think we got two picks (second and a third?) for losing Scot Schoenweis of all people.

So, we definitely would have got some type of decent draft pick if we would have kept Lohse and he left as a free agent at the end of the year. But I still like the trade. I would rather have someone who has already excelled in the low minors rather than an unproven draft pick (well, unless we were talking about a top 10 pick or something).

Cedric
07-30-2007, 07:17 PM
I think that Bailey and Cueto project as relievers.

After watching Homer and looking at his AAA periphreals, I agree. Cueto I would lean that way because of his size, but I've never seen him pitch.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 07:18 PM
My guess is that Ward's projection as a reliever has more to do with the classic "lack of offspeed stuff" problem than anything else. It certainly isn't due to Zach's frame or any perceived durability or stamina issues.

It is true he hasn't been striking out many this year, but he did in Dayton last year before the trade. That "losing power stuff" thing is a new development.

Agreed there, he is one pitch away from bolting past everyone on these lists w/ the exceptions of Bailey and maybe Cueto, I might even Toss Watson in there because he already has an exceptional "out" pitch. I would add Watson for sure if he projected to eat innings which for whatever reason he doesn't currently.

But at this point my current list is as follows:

Bailey
Watson
Cueto
Maloney
Thompson
Fisher
EZ
Wood

Lecure I am not yet convinced on. Wood I am hopeful but for now I like EZ, too me he still gets guys out at a more than reasonable rate for a guy who did ok @ 23 in the bigs. If he curbs his BB's a bit he can be a quite effective 4th or 5th man.

Cueto, Watson and Wood could all end up in the pen before it's all said and done. But if I had to choose one to stay in the rotation it's Watson who proects better long term.

If Smit actually has an injury that's not something that will require surgery he may also join Viola and Roenicke as impact BP arms down the road.

Marty and Joe
07-30-2007, 07:19 PM
I was glad to hear of this deal on the way home. Wayne sounded excited about acquiring Maloney (of course...what else would you expect him to say). It also appears that they had different scouts at several of his past starts and the reports were all consistent.

"Knows how to pitch" seems to be a theme in the discussions. Guess we'll see if that holds as he moves up and translates to getting people out at the major-league level without overpowering stuff.

Like others - I like the return for Lohse.

New Fever
07-30-2007, 07:34 PM
Most reports around the internet say that Kyle Lohse won't be a Type A or Type B free agent.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2007, 07:39 PM
I think that Bailey and Cueto project as relievers.

I think that Bailey and Cueto project to be a great 1-2 punch in the rotation for a long time.

MrCinatit
07-30-2007, 07:43 PM
I just hope we don't see these words over the winter:

"With a dwindling free-agent market, the Reds have made an offer to Kyle Lohse..."

M2
07-30-2007, 07:54 PM
Viola and Roenicke are relievers.

I know that, but Pelland made BuckeyeRedleg's list so I figured they were fair game.

Plus, I wanted to go eight deep and after Bailey, Cueto, Fisher, Maloney, Wood and Lecure I'm not too enthusiastic about any of the Reds' farm starters.

RedlegJake
07-30-2007, 07:56 PM
I think a 1.29 WHIP for a starting pitcher is pretty darn good. If it goes up to 1.35 in the major leagues, again as a starter throwing a lot of innings, I think that is pretty good too, good enough to be a back end of rotation regular starter.

By comparison, Harang is at 1.19, which is excellent by any standard. Arroyo, however, is 1.41. Matt Belisle, who RedsZone adores, is at 1.46. So Mr. Maloney's 1.29 looks pretty good to me.

Relievers, of course, require lower WHIP numbers because they pitch fewer innings and are expected to allow few base runners. But even for a reliever, 1.29 is decent.

As for strikeouts, Mr. Maloney is 4th in the Eastern League in that category. 115 Ks in 125 innings looks pretty good to me and shows me that he "misses bats."

Thank You. This isn't 1975 - a 1.30 WHIP is solid mid rotation pitching nowadays. Maloney's KO rate is okay but I'd like it better if was missing bats with a lively fastball rather than breaking stuff. I'd expect the K rate to decline as he progresses and hitters get better. Lefties with good breaking stuff can be deceptive even at ML level IF he can get a bit more command. Another thing I like is his frame - he's big solid
guy and could be a mid rotation innings eater someday. All in all I really like this guy for Lohse. I think its about as much as the Reds could hope to get for him and certainly better than C compensation.

PuffyPig
07-30-2007, 08:08 PM
Yes, at least one, maybe two. We got a first-round supplemental draft pick for losing Aurilia, and I think we got two picks (second and a third?) for losing Scot Schoenweis of all people.

So, we definitely would have got some type of decent draft pick if we would have kept Lohse and he left as a free agent at the end of the year.

Projections indicate that Lohse would not have gotten us any draft picks, as he wasn't going to be an A or a B type FA. Plus we won't likely have offered him arbitration, as it likley would have been very risky.

PuffyPig
07-30-2007, 08:09 PM
I think its about as much as the Reds could hope to get for him and certainly better than C compensation.

Isn't C compensation the "Big Nothing".

GAC
07-30-2007, 08:40 PM
I'd say Maloney is a pretty good return for Lohse. Big lefty, good K/9, unpolished, but still fairly young.

Yep. You got a high level prospect for him. That's what you got to do. But you hit the nail on the head. At 23, he's "unpolished and fairly young." You take your chances (shot), because you weren't going anywhere with Lohse.

pedro
07-30-2007, 08:40 PM
not sure if they were posted yet but here are his stats from previous years (college/minors). looks pretty good to me.

he had a great 2006 season in his first full year in the minors.


Year Team Lg Age Org Level W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP
2004 Mississipp NCAA 20 NCAA 1 3 4.66 11 7 1 0 0 48.1 62 26 25 3 6 42 2 11.54 0.56 1.12 7.82 1.41
2005 Mississipp NCAA 21 NCAA 8 3 3.11 23 13 1 1 4 104.1 94 43 36 10 26 111 5 1 8.11 0.86 2.24 9.58 1.15
Batavia NYPL 21 Phi A- 2 1 3.89 8 8 0 0 0 37.0 38 20 16 2 15 36 3 0 9.24 0.49 3.65 8.76 1.43
2006 Lakewood SAL 22 Phi A 16 9 2.08 27 27 2 1 0 0 168.2 120 54 39 5 73 180 10 0 6.40 0.27 3.90 9.60 1.14

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 08:43 PM
I just hope we don't see these words over the winter:

"With a dwindling free-agent market, the Reds have made an offer to Kyle Lohse..."

Actually Lohse is one of the more attractive options on the FA market (that says a bunch right there). If he stinks in Philly maybe we can get him back for a cheap rate. I would consider another 1 yr deal for him.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 08:47 PM
Very interesting post Pedro. His Hits and HR's per 9 are coming down and his BB's per 9 are going up. Is he perhaps trying to paint the corners more to avoid getting hit hard or is he getting better? I'm not quite sure.

pedro
07-30-2007, 08:52 PM
Very interesting post Pedro. His Hits and HR's per 9 are coming down and his BB's per 9 are going up. Is he perhaps trying to paint the corners more to avoid getting hit hard or is he getting better? I'm not quite sure.

I don't know but if the Reds had a guy who put up a year like Maloney's 2006 in the minors I think most fans would be pretty disappointed to see him flipped for Kyle Lohse.

redsmetz
07-30-2007, 08:59 PM
A couple of random thoughts -

A Reds pitcher named Maloney??? Ya gotta love that (although this one's a soft tosser, no Jim at that)....

The kid's from Huron, Ohio; way up on Lake Erie - big plus - there are now a few more Reds fans up there in the land of the Tribe.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2007, 09:11 PM
A couple of random thoughts -

A Reds pitcher named Maloney??? Ya gotta love that (although this one's a soft tosser, no Jim at that)....

The kid's from Huron, Ohio; way up on Lake Erie - big plus - there are now a few more Reds fans up there in the land of the Tribe.

Bingo. First thing I thought when I saw it was "Maloney. I wonder if...Nah." My next thought was "since he's going to be playing for us we won't have to face him." Soft-tossing lefties are poision to the Reds.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2007, 09:15 PM
I know that, but Pelland made BuckeyeRedleg's list so I figured they were fair game.

Plus, I wanted to go eight deep and after Bailey, Cueto, Fisher, Maloney, Wood and Lecure I'm not too enthusiastic about any of the Reds' farm starters.

My bad on Pelland. I agree on Viola and Roenicke (my 2007 breakthrough performer over on the minor league forum) had I meant to include relievers.

As for starters, of course Bailey and Cueto are no-brainer's. I have Maloney over Fisher (your #3) simply because of a few factors

Fisher is 24.5 years old. He has been solid at High A earning him the promotion to AA, where he has also been pretty good. In 83.2 IP at AA, he has a 73-28 K/BB ratio with a 1.35 WHIP. Not bad, but Maloney, also in AA is a full year younger (in a different league -Eastern) and has put up a 1.29 WHIP with a K/BB ratio of 115-45. Those numbers are just a tad better than Fisher's, but so close that the real difference for me, in seperating the two, is not the numbers, but the fact that Maloney's a full year younger and a lefty.

You know better on which league is harder to pitch in, so that may factor into your decision to place Fisher ahead.

I also notice you left off Thompson in exchange for LeCure. I was wondering what you thought about Thompson. He has struggled a bit making the jump to high A, but I've been impressed enough with his K/BB (71-23 in 75 IP) and the fact that he's 21 years old, that I figured he deserved a spot up there. LeCure is 23, but is pitching pretty well in AA. I just have not been blown away by anything of his. Maybe I'm missing something.

We both agree that Wood has slipped a bit and I can see him making a big jump, if he can stay healthy and have a decent 2008.

Removing Pelland....

1. Bailey
2. Cueto

3. Maloney
4. Thompson
5. Wood
6. Fisher
7. Watson

M2
07-30-2007, 09:31 PM
Fisher is 24.5 years old. He has been solid at High A earning him the promotion to AA, where he has also been pretty good. In 83.2 IP at AA, he has a 73-28 K/BB ratio with a 1.35 WHIP. Not bad, but Maloney, also in AA is a full year younger (in a different league -Eastern) and has put up a 1.29 WHIP with a K/BB ratio of 115-45. Those numbers are just a tad better than Fisher's, but so close that the real difference for me, in seperating the two, is not the numbers, but the fact that Maloney's a full year younger and a lefty.

Fair points. What I like about Fisher is that he's made such strides despite being fairly new to pitching. The video I've seen of his stuff also looks nasty. I've got a mole in Chattanooga who says nice things about him too.


I also notice you left off Thompson in exchange for LeCure. I was wondering what you thought about Thompson. He has struggled a bit making the jump to high A, but I've been impressed enough with his K/BB (71-23 in 75 IP) and the fact that he's 21 years old, that I figured he deserved a spot up there. LeCure is 23, but is pitching pretty well in AA. I just have not been blown away by anything of his. Maybe I'm missing something.

Thompson's a guy I'd have left where he was in the hopes I could flip him. He's always been better on paper than on the mound. Lecure doesn't thrill me, but he's been able to progress forward.


We both agree that Wood has slipped a bit and I can see him making a big jump, if he can stay healthy and have a decent 2008.

I think he might be a sleeper. We'll see how well he bounces back from his time on the shelf this season.

GAC
07-30-2007, 09:31 PM
not sure if they were posted yet but here are his stats from previous years (college/minors). looks pretty good to me.

he had a great 2006 season in his first full year in the minors.


Year Team Lg Age Org Level W L ERA G GS CG SH GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO WP BK H9 HR9 BB9 K9 WHIP
2004 Mississipp NCAA 20 NCAA 1 3 4.66 11 7 1 0 0 48.1 62 26 25 3 6 42 2 11.54 0.56 1.12 7.82 1.41
2005 Mississipp NCAA 21 NCAA 8 3 3.11 23 13 1 1 4 104.1 94 43 36 10 26 111 5 1 8.11 0.86 2.24 9.58 1.15
Batavia NYPL 21 Phi A- 2 1 3.89 8 8 0 0 0 37.0 38 20 16 2 15 36 3 0 9.24 0.49 3.65 8.76 1.43
2006 Lakewood SAL 22 Phi A 16 9 2.08 27 27 2 1 0 0 168.2 120 54 39 5 73 180 10 0 6.40 0.27 3.90 9.60 1.14

Good post pedro. And this illustrates only one thing to me... this is a kid in development. Is he progressing well through the system and have an upside? That's what we should be asking ourselves when we trade away a Lohse.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 09:36 PM
What I like about Fisher, he has a big frame, a strong arm and 4 pitches. They may only be modest, but don't underestimate bulldog types much like everybody did with Harang. He may be something good by the time he is 26-27.

I would think Fisher would rate more highly than Maloney, a soft tossing lefty with questionable stuff and no strong arm.

fearofpopvol1
07-30-2007, 09:44 PM
The way I see it is at best, Lohse is a #4 starter on a good team. Maloney's ceiling is supposedly a #4 starter. Obviously, we won't know for a while if that is his fate, but we essentially got a similar player who is younger and cheaper and that we can actually control for a number of years. Maybe more importantly, a lefty. We are in desperate need of left handed starting pitching.

I like the move.

Blitz Dorsey
07-30-2007, 10:30 PM
Most reports around the internet say that Kyle Lohse won't be a Type A or Type B free agent.

That's interesting. And it makes little sense to me. If we got compensatory picks for the likes of Scot Schoenweis (Type B), I would have to think we would have got something for Lohse. Now, maybe Lohse wouldn't have been a Type A like Rich Aurilia, but I was even surprised that Aurilia was classified as such. Lohse is going to probably sign for around $9 mil a year with someone. Not that his contract would have affected the compensatory picks situation, but I don't know where these internet reports are coming from that we wouldn't have got something for Lohse. Yes, it would have been expensive to offer him arbitration, but the club would have done it IMO. For starters, he never would have accepted, but even if he did getting Lohse back for one year wouldn't have been all that bad for a "worst-case" scenario. Then they still could have traded him next year if they wanted. But like I said that's a moot point since Boras never would have allowed Lohse to accept arbitration when he could be a free agent instead.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 10:35 PM
That's interesting. And it makes little sense to me. If we got compensatory picks for the likes of Scot Schoenweis (Type B), I would have to think we would have got something for Lohse. Now, maybe Lohse wouldn't have been a Type A like Rich Aurilia, but I was even surprised that Aurilia was classified as such. Lohse is going to probably sign for around $9 mil a year with someone. Not that his contract would have affected the compensatory picks situation, but I don't know where these internet reports are coming from that we wouldn't have got something for Lohse. Yes, it would have been expensive to offer him arbitration, but the club would have done it IMO. For starters, he never would have accepted, but even if he did getting Lohse back for one year wouldn't have been all that bad for a "worst-case" scenario. Then they still could have traded him next year if they wanted. But like I said that's a moot point since Boras never would have allowed Lohse to accept arbitration when he could be a free agent instead.

Rules have changed from last off-season to this one. It's documented in a few places on Redszone somewhere.

M2
07-30-2007, 10:45 PM
Rules have changed from last off-season to this one. It's documented in a few places on Redszone somewhere.

Despite that, I expect Lohse will make the Type B cut.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 10:47 PM
Despite that, I expect Lohse will make the Type B cut.

Pitching in Philly, I dunno. He better be thinking of that potential contract I suppose.

harangatang
07-30-2007, 10:58 PM
What I like about Fisher, he has a big frame, a strong arm and 4 pitches. They may only be modest, but don't underestimate bulldog types much like everybody did with Harang. He may be something good by the time he is 26-27.That's a very good comparison. The thing about those big guys who don't throw really hard is the fact they are less likely to have wear and tear on their arms. Since Harang has been here I don't believe he's had any arm troubles, which is definitely a good thing.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 11:13 PM
That's a very good comparison. The thing about those big guys who don't throw really hard is the fact they are less likely to have wear and tear on their arms. Since Harang has been here I don't believe he's had any arm troubles, which is definitely a good thing.

But Aaron throws hard--at least 93 with regularity.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 11:16 PM
But Aaron throws hard--at least 93 with regularity.

Fisher throws between 90-94. Basically what I mean by "strong arm" is guys that can throw in the 90's but doesn't have the potential to hit say......97 like a Homer Bailey can...........with a big frame that can handle many innings despite just having serviceable offspeed and breaking stuff.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 11:17 PM
Fisher throws between 90-94.

Like Homer's fastball topping out at 97. :)

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:18 PM
BA Trade breakdown. (Non-Premium I believe, as I don't own a subscription)


Rays Trade Disgruntled Cantu For Two Relievers

By Matt Eddy
July 28, 2007



The Deal

The Devil Rays remained surprisingly active as the deadline loomed, trading disgruntled first baseman Jorge Cantu and Double-A outfielder Shaun Cumberland to the Reds for righthander Calvin Medlock and lefthander Brian Shackelford, both of whom are minor league relievers. The Reds also get cash to help offset Cantu's $410,000 salary, while the Rays get future considerations.


The Big Leaguer
Cantu was Tampa Bay's most consistent offensive threat in 2005, when he hit .286/.311/.497 with 28 homers and 117 RBIs, while manning second base. But Cantu, whom the Devil Rays signed out of Mexico in 1998, battled injuries in 2006 and his production tumbled to .249/.295/.404 in 413 at-bats. He was optioned to Triple-A to begin this season, as the Rays opted to go with B.J. Upton at second and Akinori Iwamura at third, and Cantu responded by demanding a trade, even threatening not to report to Durham. The 25-year-old Cantu ultimately did report, and even though he didn't play well, he was recalled to the majors in late April. That didn't last long, either, and Cantu was in the minors at the time of the trade. He hit his first home run of the season at any level July 25.


The Prospects
Tampa Bay harbored high hopes for Cumberland, the club's 10th-round pick from a Florida high school in 2003, but the right fielder had yet to translate his tools to on-field production. Even though the 22-year-old was batting just .246/.303/.347 for Montgomery at the time of the trade, he offers speed, arm strength, budding power from the left side and the athleticism to play all three outfield spots. Cumberland's trouble has been plate discipline, as he gives away too many at-bats. His brother Drew, a shortstop, was a Padres supplemental first-round pick in June.


With a fine 129-33 K-BB ratio in 111 1/3 Southern League relief innings in 2006 and 2007, Medlock has proven he can handle Double-A. The 5-foot-10 righty, a 2002 draft-and-follow from North Central Texas JC, throws a lively 88-92 mph fastball, but struggles to get downhill plane on the pitch and, consequently, most of his outs are recorded on fly balls. Medlock, 24, also throws strikes with a curveball and changeup.


The 30-year-old Shackelford, taken by the Royals from Oklahoma in the 13th round of the 1998 draft, pitched for the Reds in both 2005 and 2006, handcuffing lefthanded batters. He hasn't gotten them out this season with Triple-A Louisville, however, as same-siders have hit .296/.391/.370 against him. The 6-foot-1 lefty throws a tailing 88-92 mph fastball, a cutter, a slider and a changeup, all from a high three-quarters arm slot. Shackelford, a two-way player in college, got more than 1,500 at-bats as an outfielder before the Royals switched him to the mound midway through the 2002 season.

Quick Take

Anxious to remake their bullpen, the Devil Rays added two relief candidates in exchange for Cantu, a player without a role, and Cumberland, who had not met expectations. Though Medlock and Shackelford were assigned to Durham, the Rays also added relievers Dan Wheeler and Grant Balfour, giving the organization several options. From the Reds' perspective, it's hard to see where Cantu fits, seeing as they already have Brandon Phillips, one of the better second basemen in the league. It might be third base, where Cincinnati has grown less than enamored of Edwin Encarnacion, who's neither hitting nor playing above-average defense. Cantu was assigned to Triple-A Louisville and played against his old team, Durham, in a doubleheader July 28.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 11:18 PM
Like Homer's fastball topping out at 97. :)

Which it did.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 11:19 PM
Which it did.

Not anymore.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:21 PM
Like Homer's fastball topping out at 97. :)

Actually it's 98 MPH. I seen that several times in the futures game last year.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 11:22 PM
Not anymore.

Uh, ok. Better pop in Bailey's start against the Cards and watch his fastball that first inning. Some real gas. Didn't help him much either without making other pitches.

When Harang was Bailey's age, he was topping out at 92mph much less sitting at 93.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2007, 11:24 PM
Actually it's 98 MPH. I seen that several times in the futures game last year.

Right, I'm talking about now. And the only reason I brought it up is because of the great pains that Aronchis went through to disabuse people of the notion that he EVER threw 97. In his MLB starts, I didn't see a pitch cross 93.

But again, I only made the point to stress how hyperbole so often enters the discussion of minor league arms, only for it to be exposed as false when they can be witnessed by a mass audience with reliable radar guns.

Aronchis
07-30-2007, 11:35 PM
Right, I'm talking about now. And the only reason I brought it up is because of the great pains that Aronchis went through to disabuse people of the notion that he EVER threw 97. In his MLB starts, I didn't see a pitch cross 93.

But again, I only made the point to stress how hyperbole so often enters the discussion of minor league arms, only for it to be exposed as false when they can be witnessed by a mass audience with reliable radar guns.

Oh come on lets don't go through this again. If you didn't see Bailey throw above 93, you weren't really watching. Again, his first inning against the Cards was a example of letting the gas rip. He was touching 95-96 in the 7th inning against the A's. I mean, even freaking Chris Welsh was drooling over the heat that night though Bailey's command of his other pitches was poor as usual.

SteelSD
07-30-2007, 11:35 PM
Right, I'm talking about now. And the only reason I brought it up is because of the great pains that Aronchis went through to disabuse people of the notion that he EVER threw 97. In his MLB starts, I didn't see a pitch cross 93.

But again, I only made the point to stress how hyperbole so often enters the discussion of minor league arms, only for it to be exposed as false when they can be witnessed by a mass audience with reliable radar guns.

Actually, during his last start I did note a few 94 MPH pitches and one at 95. Whether or not it was a "fast" or "slow" gun, I can't verify but I did confirm by watching the game via mlb.tv archived replay.

That being said, I'd suggest that a gun used at a game ("Futures") created to hype prospects is likely to be a little faster than normal.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:36 PM
Oh come on lets don't go through this again. If you didn't see Bailey throw above 93, you weren't really watching. Again, his first inning against the Cards was a example of letting the gas rip. He was touching 95-96 in the 7th inning against the A's. I mean, even freaking Chris Welsh was drooling over the heat that night though Bailey's command of his other pitches was poor as usual.

I gotta say I thought I had seen him touch 96 since he was called up.

fearofpopvol1
07-30-2007, 11:39 PM
I gotta say I thought I had seen him touch 96 since he was called up.

Yep. I can't remember if it was the Cleveland game or the one after, but I for sure remember seeing him "touch" 96 on the radar gun.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:39 PM
Actually, during his last start I did note a few 94 MPH pitches and one at 95. Whether or not it was a "fast" or "slow" gun, I can't verify but I did confirm by watching the game via mlb.tv archived replay.

That being said, I'd suggest that a gun used at a game ("Futures") created to hype prospects is likely to be a little faster than normal.


I guess that's possible, but to be fair he was touted to throw as hard as 98 and then he went out and done it. And the fact that he has touched 95,96 or even 97 bodes fairly well that he can throw it 98 and just isn't to create some movement or have better location or both.

Cyclone792
07-30-2007, 11:48 PM
I'll go ahead and state my support and satisfaction with this deal. I was strongly against extending Lohse beyond this season, and I still don't think he'll be worth Type B status after this season for a compensation pick. So with those two factors, the only option remaining was to deal him now.

As for Maloney, as others have stated, he's got some nice things going for him and looks to be real interesting.

0.93 HR/9
8.24 K/9
3.22 BB/9
2.56 K/BB

BABIP: .301
Total Balls in Play: 358
Ground Balls: 147
OF Fly Balls: 133
IF Fly Balls: 43
Line Drives: 35

He does give up a somewhat high percentage of outfield fly balls and is a little bit of an overally fly ball pitcher, and that's probably why his home run rate is a little high for my tastes. What's amazing is how few line drives he's given up this season with only 35 line drives in 358 total balls in play.

Nevertheless, age 23 in AA isn't a bad spot to be in at all, and he does have good size so hopefully his stuff will develop a bit more as he ages and develops. As others have noted, he's a guy I'd look to maybe see in the rotation by 2009, perhaps sometime next season if he pitches very well and/or the Reds starting rotation has serious holes in it and needs help from down below.

BTW, I think some posters have inquired about league factors and park factors.

In 2004, the Eastern League had an overall league factor of 1029 (average is 1000, greater than 1000 is hitter's league and less than 1000 is pitcher's league). The Southern League, on the other hand, had a league factor of 941 so it was more pitcher friendly. This is good news as Maloney is moving from a slight hitter's league to a pitcher's league.

Also, from 2003-05, Reading had a weighted park factor of 108 (average is 100, greater than 100 is hitter's park and less than 100 is pitcher's park). Chattanooga had a weighted park factor of 117.

Essentially, Maloney will be moving from a hitter's park in a slight hitter's league to a hitter's park in a pitching league. Hopefully he continues putting up similar (or better) numbers in the Southern League with Chattanooga as he's posted thus far in the Eastern League with Reading.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2007, 11:55 PM
He does give up a somewhat high percentage of outfield fly balls and is a little bit of an overally fly ball pitcher, and that's probably why his home run rate is a little high for my tastes. What's amazing is how few line drives he's given up this season with only 35 line drives in 358 total balls in play.

6 foot 4 will do that for ya perhaps, nice downward plane. :thumbup: Browning-Esque?

jojo
07-30-2007, 11:56 PM
I look at the trade like this: Krivsky flipped 10 meaningless starts from Lohse for someone that might be potentially useful in the future (possibly as early as next season as part of the AAAA shuttle).

Maloney really isn't a prospect in the true sense of really being projectible since he's a soft tosser without good stuff. As he gets promoted his college experience might be expected to count for less and less of an advantage. There are a ton of these guys around the minors. But he's a lefty and a guy like Garland (I know he's a righty) also is turdish but has managed to fertilize alot of flowers (he's ate alot of cheap innings for the Sox).

Given the apparent soft market for Lohse, this was probably a nobrainer for the Reds.

acredsfan
07-31-2007, 12:10 AM
That's were we differ. I only want moves that make us a better team (even if it makes us better only in the future).

I don't believe that a GM should be particularly worriend about trading to simply entertain us. I'm not saying that a GM should act that way, I'm just saying that my human nature keeps me wanting to see more. No matter how gruesome it gets. I definitely believe the GM should only make trades if they make sense, but my non-rational side just likes seeing new things.

WVPacman
07-31-2007, 12:13 AM
If maloney is from ohio and if this is a messege to all us reds fans that they are going to try to get players from the OH,KY,WV areas then what about Kyle Farnsworth. He could be a big boost to our struggling bullpen.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2007, 12:16 AM
I'm still perplexed at the market for Lohse. There are a ton of contending teams that have really bad starters on the team. If the bidding price was merely a mildy intriguing prospect, then how come there was not much interest?

Lohse would make a nice #4/5 starter for many teams. There are 4 or 5 teams attempting to contend with AAAA fodder in the rotation right now. Obviously Lohse is not a world beater, but he is a major upgrade over the current chaff teams are throwing out there.

Trading Lohse was the right thing to do, and I'm sure if there was a notably better prospect on the table Krivsky wuld have been happy to take it, but I'm surprised about the lack of interest for a usable starter when teams around baseball are complaining about how they have no pitching.

Reds1
07-31-2007, 12:19 AM
I watched an hour of baseball tonight and unless they mentioned at the very beginning they didn't even mention this trade. Wow!

SteelSD
07-31-2007, 12:41 AM
Oh come on lets don't go through this again. If you didn't see Bailey throw above 93, you weren't really watching. Again, his first inning against the Cards was a example of letting the gas rip. He was touching 95-96 in the 7th inning against the A's. I mean, even freaking Chris Welsh was drooling over the heat that night though Bailey's command of his other pitches was poor as usual.

You're right in noting those two Innings. I just replayed those and of the 32 fastballs Bailey threw in those Innings, 53% were clocked at 95 MPH or harder and 7 of those clocked 96 with one at 97 MPH (very wild). But there are a couple problems...

Only 52% (10) of his 19 pitches at 95+ were called strikes, swinging strikes, or balls hit into play for Outs. Nine of those offerings were Balls and at least 11 of those 17 pitches were out of the strike zone.

Bailey's Strike versus Ball rate between 92-94 MPH during those starts? 76.9%. And he got hit in that range.

Furthermore, during his 27-pitch first Inning versus the Cardinals, 23 of those were fastballs. You rightly noted that his command of secondary pitches was bad, but his command of his fastball at higher velocity was bad as well. Unfortunately, during those two Innings, Bailey was at his worst when pumping a straight 92-94 MPH fastball and completely inconsistent when trying to push higher. That's what happens when a thrower with inconsistent secondary pitches meets MLB hitters. We can only hope he fills out, gains some consistency with his secondary offerings and adds some movement to his fastball or command of his higher-MPH offerings.

Until then, he's "big kid, throws hard".

SteelSD
07-31-2007, 12:54 AM
I look at the trade like this: Krivsky flipped 10 meaningless starts from Lohse for someone that might be potentially useful in the future (possibly as early as next season as part of the AAAA shuttle).

Maloney really isn't a prospect in the true sense of really being projectible since he's a soft tosser without good stuff. As he gets promoted his college experience might be expected to count for less and less of an advantage. There are a ton of these guys around the minors. But he's a lefty and a guy like Garland (I know he's a righty) also is turdish but has managed to fertilize alot of flowers (he's ate alot of cheap innings for the Sox).

Given the apparent soft market for Lohse, this was probably a nobrainer for the Reds.

Basically, I see this trade netting the Reds just about as much as they gave up to get him. That's all well and good, but it doesn't project to do much to help the club.

Not a bad trade considering that Lohse projects to test the market regardless of where he was sent, but not the kind of inspired trade I was hoping for.

Ron Madden
07-31-2007, 04:23 AM
Wayne had to get something in return for Lohse. Maloney must have been the best deal available.

I don't have very high hopes for Maloney but I can live with this deal.

BRM
07-31-2007, 10:01 AM
Per John Fay:



Lohse Speaks

Kyle Lohse spoke to Philly pool reporter Paul Hagen:

What are your emotions right now? “I'm a little excited, happy to be going to a team in the race. But I’m disappointed we couldn’t get it done here. So it's a little bit of mixed emotions.”

Have you pitched better than your numbers would indicate? “I feel that way, but my numbers are what they are. I just try to go out there and give my team the best possible chance to win. I had a couple bad games here and there that kind of skewed the numbers.”

Did you suffer from a lack of run support? “That's probably pretty fair to say. I'm not big on using those things as an excuse, though. I just happen to be one of those guys that seems to happen to. But I'm not trying to put any blame on my teammates.”

So does it at least make you feel a little better to be coming to the team that leads the National League in runs scored? “That's always a good thing for a starting pitcher to hear.”

Sometimes when a pitcher doesn’t get a lot of runs he tries to be too fine: “That's something that happened to me throughout my career. You have some hard luck and then you make things worse because you're trying to be too perfect. ButI feel like I've done a better job of not doing that this year.”

BRM
07-31-2007, 10:02 AM
Wayne's take, per John Fay:



Here's what Wayne Krivsky had to say on the Kyle Lohse-for-Matt Maloney trade and the impending deadline:

On the Maloney: “Matt Maloney is someone our scouts have seen probably his last three or four starts. It was someone – if the Phillies were willing to give him up – we were willing to pull the trigger. Our reports on him are very good – very durable, the Sally League pitcher of the year last year, left-handed, good size, knows how to pitch. We're excited to have him.”

On what they got for Lohse: “We wanted to make a good baseball trade. We feel like we got a guy we can really count on. There was a lot of interest in Kyle we felt like this was the best guy to acquire.”

On trade activity of lack thereof around baseball: “It'll pick up. But I could care less what anyone else does. I'm only worried about the Cincinnati Reds and making us better. I could give a hoot what anyone else is doing. We're busy, I can tell you that. We’re making some calls and we're getting some."

On what the Reds might do: “It takes two make a trade. If it's a transaction that makes sense to our people, we'll make it. If it makes us better, we make it. It's as simple as that.”

On how close Maloney is to the majors: “With any pitcher, any player, they dictate when they move. He's no different from anyone else.”

On interest in Lohse: "He’s been on everybody's radar. There was a lot of interest, many teams. It got down to the point two or three were very active. My preference was not to have Kyle Lohse get on an airplane and got to Washington. I made up my mind that it would be done today before he got on the bus because it would have awkward.”

On Lohse as a Red: "Kyle Lohse has tremendous stuff. He's a good big league pitcher. I'm sure he would tell you that he hasn't been consistent enough. This is a tough deal. There's not higher league than here. It's not a easy game to play. You take the good with the bad, the ups and downs. You try to get better.

"Keep it simple stupid. It goes for being a GM, too. I got my ups and downs."

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 10:07 AM
I don't have very high hopes for Maloney but I can live with this deal.

To me the best part of this deal is not giving Lohse a contract extension

traderumor
07-31-2007, 10:33 AM
On interest in Lohse: "He’s been on everybody's radar. There was a lot of interest, many teams. It got down to the point two or three were very active. My preference was not to have Kyle Lohse get on an airplane and got to Washington. I made up my mind that it would be done today before he got on the bus because it would have awkward.”
Does this mean no one else is going today to avoid being awkward? :confused:

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 10:35 AM
Can't have awkwardness :lol:

camisadelgolf
07-31-2007, 10:36 AM
I think one of the most interesting things about the Lohse trade is that Krivsky pushed the button right before they traveled to Washington. Meanwhile, Adam Dunn is making the trip. That potentially tells me that the Reds aren't getting adequate offers for Dunn or that Washington is making at least a decent attempt at obtaining him.

RedsManRick
07-31-2007, 10:46 AM
My guess is that the Lohse deal was done in principal a few days ago it was just a matter of agreeing on the prospect. It wasn't so much an if but a when. I'd say there are no other deals which are that far along. I'd be shocked if Conine didn't get moved today (my guess is to the Twins), but I'm not expecting anything beyond that.

With Hatteberg's performance this year and an extremely reasonable 1.85M team option, I think he's staying around unless we get a great offer. Not saying I agree, but I'm guessing that's the working plan. We can always trade him next spring after exercising the option.

Blitz Dorsey
07-31-2007, 10:48 AM
I look at the trade like this: Krivsky flipped 10 meaningless starts from Lohse for someone that might be potentially useful in the future (possibly as early as next season as part of the AAAA shuttle).

Maloney really isn't a prospect in the true sense of really being projectible since he's a soft tosser without good stuff. As he gets promoted his college experience might be expected to count for less and less of an advantage. There are a ton of these guys around the minors. But he's a lefty and a guy like Garland (I know he's a righty) also is turdish but has managed to fertilize alot of flowers (he's ate alot of cheap innings for the Sox).

Given the apparent soft market for Lohse, this was probably a nobrainer for the Reds.

Bingo.

SteelSD
07-31-2007, 10:53 AM
Does this mean no one else is going today to avoid being awkward? :confused:

Nah. Just that everyone else traded today is likely going to need a ride to Washington anyway. ;)

registerthis
07-31-2007, 10:57 AM
Nah. Just that everyone else traded today is likely going to need a ride to Washington anyway. ;)

Bring 'em on over I say. Going to tonight's and tomorrow's games at RFK. Wonder if there'll be any uniform switching? :)

SteelSD
07-31-2007, 11:10 AM
Bring 'em on over I say. Going to tonight's and tomorrow's games at RFK. Wonder if there'll be any uniform switching? :)

I was at the Twins/Red Sox game in Minneapolis the day Doug Mientkiewicz was dealt to the Red Sox. That was way too much fun.

redsmetz
07-31-2007, 11:51 AM
I was at the Twins/Red Sox game in Minneapolis the day Doug Mientkiewicz was dealt to the Red Sox. That was way too much fun.

Or Joel Youngblood getting traded during a game he was playing in Chicago, flew to Philadelphia to join the Expos, entered their game in the same inning he'd left in Chicago and got hits in both games!

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/features/flashbacks/08_04_1982.stm

Eric_Davis
07-31-2007, 03:36 PM
My intial reaction is that he appears top be a better prospect than Zach Ward, so I'm okay with it.

Decent K numbers this year. Not that impressed wwith the WHIP. 3rd round pick in 2005 draft. Has averaged a K an inning through 331 minor league innings coming into the year. Lefty.

Dig it.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Matt-Maloney.shtml


I agree. Looks like a good swap....Ward for Maloney. Ward was a 3rd round pick in the 2005 draft after a couple of years in college while Maloney was a 5th round pick in the same draft after a couple of years in college. They're both the same age, but Maloney seems to be progressing faster than Ward. Ward's still hanging around High-A ball while Maloney already has 120 innings thrown in AA with good enough numbers and more importantly, looks good doing so as the REDS' scouts believe.

camisadelgolf
07-31-2007, 03:45 PM
Maloney was selected five picks after Ward (both in the third round).

OnBaseMachine
08-01-2007, 10:54 PM
Matt Maloney made his Reds organizational debut tonight and was pretty dominant: 7 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 1 BB, 10 K. Pretty darn solid debut for Maloney.