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paulrichjr
07-31-2007, 05:21 PM
The trade deadline is over and I am very disappointed.

Hatteberg, Conine, Weathers are still on the team. Dunn and Griffey both are and while I didn't want them to leave I would have been excited to have seen what might have been. Is it possible that no one needed Weathers? This guy should have brought some major talent back. The 2 headed first baseman would have been good to have gotten rid of so that Votto could be up here. Are we playing for 2007?

flyer85
07-31-2007, 05:22 PM
after all this excitement I am going to need a nap. :D

NC Reds
07-31-2007, 05:26 PM
I can see Hatteburg, Conine, Weathers, and even Griffey passing through waivers, so they may move in August.

Dunn (thankfully) should be a Red the rest of the year.

M2
07-31-2007, 05:29 PM
It's like waking up on Christmas morning and finding you've only got tube socks under the tree.

Aronchis
07-31-2007, 05:29 PM
I can see Hatteburg, Conine, Weathers, and even Griffey passing through waivers, so they may move in August.

Dunn (thankfully) should be a Red the rest of the year.

The old fluff is definitely wavier material. Though, we enjoy the thrill of a blockbuster:)

Reds Fanatic
07-31-2007, 05:29 PM
From John Fay:


John Fay reports that manager Pete Mackanin talked to general manager Wayne Krivsky shortly after the non-waiver trade deadline (4 p.m.), and Mackanin said that Krivsky told him the Reds didn't make any trades. The Reds did make one move. Catcher Chad Moeller was outrighted to Triple-A, and infielder Mark Bellhorn was called up.

BRM
07-31-2007, 05:30 PM
I can see Hatteburg, Conine, Weathers, and even Griffey passing through waivers, so they may move in August.

Dunn (thankfully) should be a Red the rest of the year.

3 of those guys are on relatively cheap contracts. I doubt they would clear waivers.

Sea Ray
07-31-2007, 05:35 PM
In reference to the "grade Krivsky" threads earlier in the year I said the jury's still out; let's see what he does to pump talent into this team between now and the end of 2007. Well a major opportunity just passed w/o adding anything significant to this team's needs and maybe even subtracted a possible bullpem arm in Medlock. Sure, he may still make some deals between now and the end of the year but it'll be harder.

Krivsky is failing my test as a GM that can improve this team's fortunes. He still gets 'till the end of the year but I'm leaning towards the thinking that he's not "the guy" and I would not be disappointed if Cast removes him prematurely.

BTW, were there any deadline deals today?

StillFunkyB
07-31-2007, 05:36 PM
Sweet.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2007, 05:36 PM
The only thing I'm dissapointed in is Weathers.

It doesn't look like Krivsky tried to move him, when it seemed that there was a pretty nice market for him. Other than that, I guess it would have been nice to see Conine moved, but I doubt the Reds would have gotten anyone back of even moderate interest.

BRM
07-31-2007, 05:37 PM
John Fay speculated a couple of days ago that Wayne might want to give Pete a fair shake as far as winning the manager job. He couldn't trade any major talent away in order to do that. This is what Fay wrote on Sunday:



My guess is Kyle Lohse is gone. Scott Hatteberg and/or Jeff Conine also might be moved.

Beyond that, I don't see a lot happening.

That's because - this is just my theory - Krivsky wants to give interim manager Pete Mackanin a fair chance to earn the permanent gig. For Mackanin to do that, the Reds have to continue to play well.

flyer85
07-31-2007, 05:37 PM
BTW, were there any deadline deals today?I think WK is not quite sure what to do to get this turned around. There isn't a get well plan, just a hope that players will start performing at a higher level.

Doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing.

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 05:37 PM
I'm more upset that Votto will keep sitting down in AAA while the vet squad keeps manning 1st base.

and Bellhorn? yipes

paulrichjr
07-31-2007, 05:38 PM
The only thing I'm dissapointed in is Weathers.

It doesn't look like Krivsky tried to move him, when it seemed that there was a pretty nice market for him. Other than that, I guess it would have been nice to see Conine moved, but I doubt the Reds would have gotten anyone back of even moderate interest.


Tube socks would have been fine for him... I just wanted to see Votto. Now, oh well...

BRM
07-31-2007, 05:39 PM
You guys keep missing the memo. This team is soooo close to contending....

PuffyPig
07-31-2007, 05:39 PM
Based on the trades not made today, it doesn't look like there was much prospect talent up for grabs.

The only FA player the Reds needed to move was Conine, and he wouldn't have brought much.

You can't force trades.

Just because you want to trade Weathers for major talent, doesn't mean others are going to play the game.

Unless you know what Wayne turned down, it's hard to comment.

VR
07-31-2007, 05:40 PM
I'd guess Dunn to the Nationals could still happen in August..as Washington would have first dibs on a waiver claim.

Marc D
07-31-2007, 05:41 PM
Team sitting dead last stands pat. That makes sense.

smith288
07-31-2007, 05:41 PM
L-A-M-E

Caveat Emperor
07-31-2007, 05:41 PM
It's like waking up on Christmas morning and finding you've only got tube socks under the tree.

I'd still prefer the tube socks to Justin Germano or Branden Harris.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 05:41 PM
The Reds are in such good shape, standing pat was the right thing to do...:bang:

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 05:42 PM
John Fay speculated a couple of days ago that Wayne might want to give Pete a fair shake as far as winning the manager job. He couldn't trade any major talent away in order to do that. This is what Fay wrote on Sunday:

Good Grief that's a foolish thing to do.

Does Wayne really think find the right manager and this team is contending?

Eric_Davis
07-31-2007, 05:42 PM
Guess this means that Votto is staying in Louisville.

Sea Ray
07-31-2007, 05:42 PM
I think WK is not quite sure what to do to get this turned around. There isn't a get well plan, just a hope that players will start performing at a higher level.

Doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing.


Not knowing what to do is a problem for a man in his position. If that's the case then he should be removed. It's his job to know, however I do agree that doing nothing is preferable to trading Dunn for folks like Dave Williams, Bong and Bubba.

BRM
07-31-2007, 05:44 PM
Does Wayne really think find the right manager and this team is contending?

It's starting to look a little like that. Finding an arm or two for the bullpen + getting the right manager = team contends.

Red Leader
07-31-2007, 05:45 PM
Rotoworld.com


The Reds didn't make any trades Tuesday before the 4 p.m. EDT deadline.

Bronson Arroyo, Adam Dunn, David Weathers and Jeff Conine are all staying. The first three make sense, but Wayne Krivsky should have moved one or both of his veteran (which is another word for old) first basemen for whatever they could get. It's time to find out whether Joey Votto is ready. The Reds apparently do have one move they're making tonight: Mark Bellhorn is being added to the roster as a replacement for Chad Moeller.

My opinion, Wayne could have done something. He could have done a lot, IMO.

Arroyo for JoJo Reyes and Yunel Escobar is one deal that was mentioned. If Wayne makes that deal the rest of the dominos could have fallen. Gonzalez could have been dealt so that Escobar could have played. What would Gonzalez bring back in a trade? No idea, but something. Conine could still be moved, but he should have been moved today. Hatteberg could have netted some decent prospects. Weathers could have netted some good prospects. Dunn, who knows. There was obviously some interest in him, but if it wasn't a super knock your socks off deal, then I understand not dealing him. A lot could have been done to improve this team. Instead Wayne decided to be nice guy and keep the team intact so that Pete Mackanin has a "decent" team to manage for the rest of the season to determine if he really should be a permanent manager? Give me a break. Wayne, you just sealed your fate buddy.

Always Red
07-31-2007, 05:45 PM
Yes, a disappointment.

This team is going nowhere, and Kriv did not take advantage of an opportunity to sell high in some cases. Dave Weathers is a nice pitcher and has done a good job this year, but he is of little use to this team, either this year or next. He could have garnered a very nice prospect, by the look of things today.

He made no moves to improve the team immediately, and yet no moves to improve the team in the future. Stand pat. ? That gets you nowhere.

IMO, Kriv thinks this team, as comprised now, is close to winning, and has somehow, someway, convinced Castellini of the same. I look for Mackanin to be offered a one year contract for 2008 sometime in the next two weeks. Seriously, I think it will happen.

Well, I'm gonna go start drinking now. I'm glad Dunn is still with the team, but today was just kind of a depressing day to be a Reds fan. Again.

Sea Ray
07-31-2007, 05:45 PM
Good Grief that's a foolish thing to do.

Does Wayne really think find the right manager and this team is contending?

I agree. If WK really is more worried about Pete Mac than improving the future talent on the field then he's clueless and needs to go.

flyer85
07-31-2007, 05:46 PM
Does Wayne really think find the right manager and this team is contending?I am not sure it is possible to know. WKs issues likely all go back to the reason DanO was fired(told BCast this team was not close to contending) and WK was hired(told BCast they were just a few pitchers away), which precludes WK from going into a rebuilding mode. Instead he is a less offensive version of Bowden but is stuck in the mode of patching together the best team he can regardless of whether there is anywhere near enough talent to contend.

Aronchis
07-31-2007, 05:46 PM
Wayne is pretty much boxed into a corner by Cast's demands. He better win or else.

I think he is DOA FWIW. Though the experience may shake Cast up enough that he changes his tune and hires a new GM to actually rebuild the franchise.

I suspect the next GM search isn't that far off.

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 05:46 PM
One one hand I'm glad Dunn is still here, means the Reds aren't insane, on the other it's ridiculous to hold on to guys with medium value because no one offered that much for them, tell me what the win difference would be if the Reds had moved Hat and brought up Votto? would it be that big a deal? and we'd have a jump start on seeing if Votto is ready, you can always go get Hat back if the team you dealt him to turns the option down.

Now, maybe Wayne wasn't offered much but still, standing pat and hoping for what? :confused:

BRM
07-31-2007, 05:47 PM
I agree. If WK really is more worried about Pete Mac than improving the future talent on the field then he's clueless and needs to go.

Maybe Wayne doesn't feel the talent on the field needs much improving? Maybe he thinks the team is really close. :dunno:

Heath
07-31-2007, 05:49 PM
Wayne is pretty much boxed into a corner by Cast's demands. He better win or else.

I think he is DOA FWIW. Though the experience may shake Cast up enough that he changes his tune and hires a new GM to actually rebuild the franchise.

I suspect the next GM search isn't that far off.

Probably to the West to another team that wears Red.

Far-flung story - maybe BCast was getting info from that "possible replacement".

:dunno:

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 05:49 PM
John Fay speculated a couple of days ago that Wayne might want to give Pete a fair shake as far as winning the manager job. He couldn't trade any major talent away in order to do that. This is what Fay wrote on Sunday:

If that's the case, then Wayne should be fired for not doing his job.

Caveat Emperor
07-31-2007, 05:49 PM
A lot could have been done to improve this team.

No offense RL, but when the chip that starts the dominos falling is dealing a good starting pitcher w/ cost certainty signed below market value, I don't think that improves the team.

Frankly, what I saw this deadline was a lot of teams being extra stingy with top minor league talent. If they want to play that game, I'll take my draft pick at the end of the year and be happy.

The only thing worse than inaction is action for the sake of action. Thats what it seems a lot of people want around here.

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 05:49 PM
It's starting to look a little like that. Finding an arm or two for the bullpen + getting the right manager = team contends.

He might just be right, if contending = 82 wins if everyone has a career year.

smith288
07-31-2007, 05:49 PM
Guardado & Bray close.

flyer85
07-31-2007, 05:50 PM
Maybe he thinks the team is really close. :dunno:He can't be that stupid but is likely cornered due to the premise that got him hired in the first place.

BRM
07-31-2007, 05:50 PM
If that's the case, then Wayne should be fired for not doing his job.

I have my doubts that is the case but it is an interesting take from Mr. Fay.

Aronchis
07-31-2007, 05:52 PM
No offense RL, but when the chip that starts the dominos falling is dealing a good starting pitcher w/ cost certainty signed below market value, I don't think that improves the team.

Frankly, what I saw this deadline was a lot of teams being extra stingy with top minor league talent. If they want to play that game, I'll take my draft pick at the end of the year and be happy.

The only thing worse than inaction is action for the sake of action. Thats what it seems a lot of people want around here.

The problem is, Arroyo's contract isn't below market value for long. He will be 32 in 2009 and he doesn't have a overly impressive frame. He may have another 1-2 years left at top form. Trading him for a package of prospects actually isn't that crazy if you rebuild.

flyer85
07-31-2007, 05:52 PM
We're going to talk to Wayne Krivsky in a bit. I don't think he'll shed a lot of light on what happened.Ya think.

Unassisted
07-31-2007, 05:52 PM
It's easy to be disappointed over no moves under the assumption an opportunity was missed. But I'd be more disappointed by bad trades to unload the few trading chips the team still possesses.

We don't know the extent to which Wayne's hands were tied by ownership. If the deals offered didn't Wayne's and Castellini's standards, maybe they wouldn't have been popular on RedsZone either?

PuffyPig
07-31-2007, 05:52 PM
Team sitting dead last stands pat. That makes sense.

I think the Pirates tried to dump Wilson, but couldn't get it done.

M2
07-31-2007, 05:55 PM
Based on the trades not made today, it doesn't look like there was much prospect talent up for grabs.

The only FA player the Reds needed to move was Conine, and he wouldn't have brought much.

You can't force trades.

Just because you want to trade Weathers for major talent, doesn't mean others are going to play the game.

Unless you know what Wayne turned down, it's hard to comment.

Fair enough. I'd rather Krivsky tell clubs demanding something for nothing to get stuffed. No deals certainly beats bad ones, but it's still deflating. The Reds really do need a GM who can barter them forward. I know it's hard to do and I appreciate that, but there really is no substitute.


You guys keep missing the memo. This team is soooo close to contending....

That's certainly either the lingering problem or the perceptual danger.

Obviously the Reds aren't all that close. I think fans get it even though folks are prone to take every series win as the beginning of a cheesy movie montage in which our ragtag heroes play themselves back into contention. Still, fans know this isn't a very good.

While I don't go in for blaming Adam Dunn for the team's ills there is a sane reaction buried inside of the calls to trade him, namely that the Reds are a bad team and some big changes are needed. Even when the blame/cure is misplaced, the general observation is correct.

At some juncture the Reds need to show they understand it too. Krivsky's engineered more turnover than DanO did, but the team still is plagued with the same problems.

UKFlounder
07-31-2007, 05:58 PM
It's like waking up on Christmas morning and finding you've only got tube socks under the tree.

It's more like when Grandma & Grandpa come over - you hope they bring some new toy for you, but sometimes they don't.

Anybody who is terribly disappointed with the lack of major moves today has not really paid much attention to how this administration operates. It's generally a fairly slow, conservative approach, and that's the way they went about it today.

Disappointing perhaps, but not shocking or even surprising. (Kind of like when NFL free agency comes along and the Bengals don't gobble up a star - what did you really expect?)

Edit: I'm leaving work right now, but it looks like your post just above mine agrees with me sort of in the conservative nature of Krivsky et al.

I agree a more creative, energetic approach would be an improvement.

Red Leader
07-31-2007, 06:00 PM
The problem is, Arroyo's contract isn't below market value for long. He will be 32 in 2009 and he doesn't have a overly impressive frame. He may have another 1-2 years left at top form. Trading him for a package of prospects actually isn't that crazy if you rebuild.


Right. Harang is a different story. He's got the build to be a workhorse and has been more consistent.

If you move Arroyo for JoJo Reyes and Escobar then you've got a replacement starter for Arroyo that is under your control for a long time and is on a similar time frame to Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto. The more guys you have hit at the same time, the better, IMO. You've also got a young SS, so you've got a MLB proven SS in Gonzalez that you can afford to move. I know Gonzalez hasn't been the defensive wizard he was built up to be this year, but he's an improvement at SS for a good number of teams. Detroit actually almost pulled the trigger on a Jack Wilson deal. I'm just saying Wayne could have made the Arroyo deal. That could have led to other deals and possibilities that weren't available to him prior to that deal. Another deal could have given him surplus somewhere else and so on and so on. He did nothing. Conine will still retire at the end of the year. Dunn still has a $13M option for next year we don't think he'll want to pick up. Weathers' value probably won't go up any higher than it is now. Same with Hatteberg. Yet he did nothing. And we still suck.

Cyclone792
07-31-2007, 06:00 PM
Krivsky's engineered more turnover than DanO did, but the team still is plagued with the same problems.

Run differentials ...

2006 1st Half: -0.17 per game (5.03 runs scored vs. 5.20 runs allowed)
2006 2nd Half: -0.51 per game (4.12 runs scored vs. 4.63 runs allowed)
2007 thus far: -0.55 per game (4.61 runs scored vs. 5.16 runs allowed)

Lots of turnover as you point out, and the run differential is going in the wrong direction.

Roy Tucker
07-31-2007, 06:00 PM
If that comment about giving Mackanin a decent team to see what he can do is true, then I think I'll take up drinking again.

I'm glad they kept Dunn, sorta glad they kept Junior, and wonder why Conine, Hatteberg, and Weathers weren't dealt. The Arroyo trade was intriguing, but I'm highly suspect of Braves pyrite no matter how much it glitters now.

I suppose Conine (and maybe Griffey) can pass through waivers and be dealt later, but I wouldn't think that for Hatteberg and Weathers.

But what I would like to see is the kids on the farm up with the big club. If they are planning on depending on them in 2008, best be finding out what they are capable of starting right now.

Aronchis
07-31-2007, 06:02 PM
Right. Harang is a different story. He's got the build to be a workhorse and has been more consistent.

If you move Arroyo for JoJo Reyes and Escobar then you've got a replacement starter for Arroyo that is under your control for a long time and is on a similar time frame to Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto. The more guys you have hit at the same time, the better, IMO. You've also got a young SS, so you've got a MLB proven SS in Gonzalez that you can afford to move. I know Gonzalez hasn't been the defensive wizard he was built up to be this year, but he's an improvement at SS for a good number of teams. Detroit actually almost pulled the trigger on a Jack Wilson deal. I'm just saying Wayne could have made the Arroyo deal. That could have led to other deals and possibilities that weren't available to him prior to that deal. Another deal could have given him surplus somewhere else and so on and so on. He did nothing. Conine will still retire at the end of the year. Dunn still has a $13M option for next year we don't think he'll want to pick up. Weathers' value probably won't go up any higher than it is now. Same with Hatteberg. Yet he did nothing. And we still suck.

I would want more than that for Arroyo, but you get the general point. The Reds will have plenty more chances to trade him.

bucksfan
07-31-2007, 06:03 PM
Based on the trades not made today, it doesn't look like there was much prospect talent up for grabs.

The only FA player the Reds needed to move was Conine, and he wouldn't have brought much.

You can't force trades.

Just because you want to trade Weathers for major talent, doesn't mean others are going to play the game.

Unless you know what Wayne turned down, it's hard to comment.

I am more suprised than anything that something of value to both sides was not able to be worked out for Weathers or either Hatte or Conine. Beyond that I am not disappointed as I did not know first hand that there was something better out there "to be had". Like someone else mentioned, probably the one disappointment would be that we don;t get to see Votto's audition yet (but I do like seeing Hatteberg in there, just realistic about the future).

pedro
07-31-2007, 06:07 PM
I hate that proposed Arroyo deal and am glad that Krivsky passed.

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:07 PM
Per C. Trent.



The Kriv-Dawg: "This is just the non-waiver trading deadline, that doesn’t mean there can’t be trades in August. There just wasn’t anything out there today suitable for us, so we passed."

pedro
07-31-2007, 06:08 PM
Per C. Trent.

Conine will be traded IMO. Maybe Hatteberg too.

Griffey will pass through waivers too IMO, so he could still get flipped as well.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-31-2007, 06:10 PM
Can't say I'm surprised.

Yawner at the '06 deadline.

Yawner in the off-season.

Yawner at the '07 deadline.

Wayne's a yawner. And eventually, a goner.

smith288
07-31-2007, 06:13 PM
Everyone and their brother will be placed on the waiver wire now.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2007, 06:15 PM
Wayne has no plan.

He's got to be on the way out. I have to believe that.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 06:15 PM
Can't say I'm surprised.

Yawner at the '06 deadline.





Last year was more eventful...

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:17 PM
Last year was more eventful...

The Reds picked up Lohse and Cormier on the 31st last year.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 06:18 PM
The Reds picked up Lohse and Cormier on the 31st last year.

I meant in general..."The Trade" included.

This year...blaaaaaaaaah

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 06:18 PM
Conine will be traded IMO. Maybe Hatteberg too.

Griffey will pass through waivers too IMO, so he could still get flipped as well.

I wouldn't be so sure on JR, with only 1 year left on his deal he is a bit more attractive to teams

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:19 PM
I meant in general..."The Trade" included.

This year...blaaaaaaaaah

The trade was early in July but I know what you mean.

Roy Tucker
07-31-2007, 06:20 PM
Wayne has no plan.

He's got to be on the way out. I have to believe that.

Yeah, his moves (or non-moves) are all reactive. No bold strokes, no apparent direction as to where he is going, just bouncing off the other pool balls.

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:20 PM
I wouldn't be so sure on JR, with only 1 year left on his deal he is a bit more attractive to teams

Yeah, I think there is a decent chance he'd get claimed. Same with Hatteberg.

Red Leader
07-31-2007, 06:21 PM
The Kriv-Dawg: "This is just the non-waiver trading deadline, that doesn’t mean there can’t be trades in August. There just wasn’t anything out there today suitable for us, so we passed."

What? No mention of the deadline for players to be eligible for the playoff roster?

Sorry, if my sarcasm seems like an overreaction today, but I'm pretty ticked off that no moves were made. There were players to be moved and this team could have been improved, IMO. Wayne choosing not to move Weathers in particular has me scratching my head. I personally really like Yunel Escobar. I think he's going to be a good offensive and defensive player. Acquiring him would have allowed the Reds to move Alex Gonzalez and his long term contract. More importantly, it would have freed up some cash so that the Reds would have had a chance to sign Adam Dunn to a 2 or 3 year contract for 2008 and beyond.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 06:22 PM
What? No mention of the deadline for players to eligible for the playoff roster?

Sorry, if my sarcasm seems like an overreaction today, but I'm pretty ticked off that no moves were made.

Elizardo and Belhorn have arrived to save the season!

World Series bound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Redsland
07-31-2007, 06:23 PM
Wayne has no plan.
That's not true.

John Fay asked what the plan was at the Mackanin press conference. Wayne spilled the beans to Fay with the cameras rolling and everything.

The plan is, and I quote, "To get better. To get better people. To play better."

Nice plan, eh? :rolleyes:

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:23 PM
Elizardo and Belhorn have arrived to save the season!

World Series bound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Easy now. Bray and Guardado still aren't ready.

pedro
07-31-2007, 06:23 PM
What? No mention of the deadline for players to be eligible for the playoff roster?

Sorry, if my sarcasm seems like an overreaction today, but I'm pretty ticked off that no moves were made. There were players to be moved and this team could have been improved, IMO. Wayne choosing not to move Weathers in particular has me scratching my head. I personally really like Yunel Escobar. I think he's going to be a good offensive and defensive player. Acquiring him would have allowed the Reds to move Alex Gonzalez and his long term contract. More importantly, it would have freed up some cash so that the Reds would have had a chance to sign Adam Dunn to a 2 or 3 year contract for 2008 and beyond.

I just fail to see what trading Arroyo does to help the Reds win. Reyes upside just isn't that good and pitching is where it's at.

Red Leader
07-31-2007, 06:24 PM
Seriously. It seems to me that Wayne's vision extends to next week (maximum). Hey, look at the big picture! Answer some of those questions!

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:24 PM
That's not true.

John Fay asked what the plan was at the Mackanin press conference. Wayne spilled the beans to Fay with the cameras rolling and everything.

The plan is, and I quote, "To get better. To get better people. To play better."

Nice plan, eh? :rolleyes:

Well, it's better than saying "to keep rocketing towards suckitude". ;)

Tom Servo
07-31-2007, 06:26 PM
Wayne has no plan.

He's got to be on the way out. I have to believe that.
Agreed, on both points.

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:26 PM
Wayne speaks.



Wayne Krivsky downplayed the fact that the Reds made no trades on the day of non-waiver deadline.

“This is just the non-waiver,” Krivsky said. “It doesn’t mean that there still can’t be trades in August. There wasn’t anything out there today that was suitable for us, so we passed.”

“I’m always looking to improve the team. There wasn’t anything out there today that improved the team. We’ll stand pat and go with what we have right now.”

Disappointed? “No, not at all.”

Are there players in the minors ready to help the cause soon? “You never know about minor leaguers and how they develop. Everyone develops differently. I don’t have a crystal ball to tell you who’s going to be ready and who’s not. We give them to opportunity to play and give them the best chance to have success. Their performance dictates who moves up to next level.
“You can’t get too far ahead of yourself there.”

On the timing of Chad Moeller-Mark Bellhorn transaction: “We felt like we’d go with Bellhorn instead of Chad for the time being. That decision was made this afternoon.

Are there any deals still in the works" “You’ve got to get waivers on players. Until you get waivers on the players, there’s no sense talking about that. We’ve been talking about guys without waivers for months now. Everybody’s going to take a deep breath.”

On the TBAs in the rotation for Thursday and Saturday: “We’ll figure it out. We’ll let you know as soon as we notify the player. Someone will pitch Thursday and Saturday.”

Again, you're not disappointed: “No, not at all. We’re real happy about the trade yesterday, acquiring Matt Maloney, and we’re happy to acquire Jorge Cantu and Shaun Cumberland. We’ll go forward and continue the process of improving out inventory of minor league players and try to make the major league team better. The only restriction we have in August and September is we have to have waivers in order to trade a player.”

Aronchis
07-31-2007, 06:27 PM
I wonder if Wayne will return to Minny after Cast releases him?

Red Leader
07-31-2007, 06:28 PM
I just fail to see what trading Arroyo does to help the Reds win. Reyes upside just isn't that good and pitching is where it's at.

What does keeping Arroyo help? We aren't winning anything this year. We aren't winning anything next year. 2009 is the earliest I could see for a decent season. By then, hopefully Bailey and Cueto will be up and pitching well. Harang will still be around. That's a year and a half more of wear and tear on Bronson Arroyo's arm. Do you honestly think that in a year and a half that Bronson Arroyo will be that much better than JoJo Reyes? Do you think Alex Gonzalez will be that much better than Yunel Escobar? Now consider the salaries of those 4 players. Would you rather have the salaries of Arroyo and Gonzalez in a year and a half, or Reyes and Escobar?

Redmachine2003
07-31-2007, 06:29 PM
SAD SAD SAD This team just doesn't get it no matter who owns it. They just never have a plan to get better.

pedro
07-31-2007, 06:33 PM
What does keeping Arroyo help? We aren't winning anything this year. We aren't winning anything next year. 2009 is the earliest I could see for a decent season. By then, hopefully Bailey and Cueto will be up and pitching well. Harang will still be around. That's a year and a half more of wear and tear on Bronson Arroyo's arm. Do you honestly think that in a year and a half that Bronson Arroyo will be that much better than JoJo Reyes? Do you think Alex Gonzalez will be that much better than Yunel Escobar? Now consider the salaries of those 4 players. Would you rather have the salaries of Arroyo and Gonzalez in a year and a half, or Reyes and Escobar?


I definitely think Arroyo will be better than Reyes and while Escobar is intriguing he's no sure thing either. As for Bailey/Cueto the chances that either of them ever approach what Arroyo has already done is probably less than 50%.

I don't care about salaries, that's the owners problem. Arroyo should bring back more than those two guys IMO, that's all.

KronoRed
07-31-2007, 06:34 PM
Wayne speaks.

That was almost Dan O like

Falls City Beer
07-31-2007, 06:34 PM
I'll say that I'm not upset that Dunn is still a Red.

*tiny lil FCB grins deviously*

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 06:35 PM
"We’ll stand pat and go with what we have right now.”

Mike Brown re-emerges....

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:39 PM
I'll say that I'm not upset that Dunn is still a Red.

*tiny lil FCB grins deviously*

That part doesn't bother me either.

BRM
07-31-2007, 06:39 PM
"We’ll stand pat and go with what we have right now.”

Mike Brown re-emerges....

Not many last place clubs would have the nerve to make a statement like that. Hoepfully he's got something brewing for August.

Marc D
07-31-2007, 06:43 PM
We’ll go forward and continue the process of improving out inventory of minor league players and try to make the major league team better -WK

Its always comes back to this one simple concept. You can't do both at once, there must be a priority.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2007, 06:56 PM
I'm more upset that Votto will keep sitting down in AAA while the vet squad keeps manning 1st base.

and Bellhorn? yipes

I didn't expect anything earth shattering, but I just can not see how "we" didn't move either Hatteberg or Conine...


How the hell do you justify keeping Votto in AAA?!?

I'm fine with keeping Arroyo, as this years FA SP's is pretty wretched...I can even see keeping Weathers if you didn't get the price you expected.

But not moving one of the 1B's is kinda shocking. :shrug:

Always Red
07-31-2007, 07:04 PM
I'll say that I'm not upset that Dunn is still a Red.

*tiny lil FCB grins deviously*

FCB, that's the first time I've seen you smile! It's a good look on you!

BTW, I agree, I'm very happy Dunn is still a Redleg. What they need, is for guys to be on base in front of him...

IslandRed
07-31-2007, 07:07 PM
Frankly, what I saw this deadline was a lot of teams being extra stingy with top minor league talent. If they want to play that game, I'll take my draft pick at the end of the year and be happy.

Seeing what (didn't) happen today across MLB, I've about concluded that the trading-deadline extreme makeover has gone the way of the Edsel. I can't remember the last time a team actually brought in a franchise-shifting haul of young talent at the deadline. Rebuilding is more of an offseason event these days. Whether Krivsky will be around to do it remains to be seen.

We've done a lot of supposing about what certain players should or shouldn't have fetched this week, but the market has spoken. That market is the 29 other GMs and no one else; a player's trade value is what one of those GMs will give for him and nothing else. Krivsky may have a tendency to overvalue certain players; so do we.

edabbs44
07-31-2007, 07:16 PM
WK is dead to me. My guess is that he is scared out of his mind to make any move which might rock the boat. He has to go.

fearofpopvol1
07-31-2007, 07:21 PM
I didn't expect anything earth shattering, but I just can not see how "we" didn't move either Hatteberg or Conine...


How the hell do you justify keeping Votto in AAA?!?

I'm fine with keeping Arroyo, as this years FA SP's is pretty wretched...I can even see keeping Weathers if you didn't get the price you expected.

But not moving one of the 1B's is kinda shocking. :shrug:

This is my sentiment as well.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2007, 07:23 PM
Seeing what (didn't) happen today across MLB, I've about concluded that the trading-deadline extreme makeover has gone the way of the Edsel. I can't remember the last time a team actually brought in a franchise-shifting haul of young talent at the deadline. Rebuilding is more of an offseason event these days. Whether Krivsky will be around to do it remains to be seen.

We've done a lot of supposing about what certain players should or shouldn't have fetched this week, but the market has spoken. That market is the 29 other GMs and no one else; a player's trade value is what one of those GMs will give for him and nothing else. Krivsky may have a tendency to overvalue certain players; so do we.

You're right--it is more of an offseason thing--Wayne did nothing then too.

As each day passes, Wayne reveals himself as less than capable of both striking while the iron is hot and massaging the market when it isn't hot.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2007, 07:25 PM
Screw Wayne Krivsky. I've been riding the fence on Krivsky for a while now, never was a Krivsky hater nor lover, but this pushes me over the top. I now want Krivsky fired immediately. You have a stud first base prospect in the minors ready to step up and produce, yet you hang on to Jeff Conine and Hatteberg, who have no future ahead of them in Cincinnati? Dumb. And David Weathers was one of the top relief pitchers on the market, yet he remains a Red? The M's offered top prospect Wlad Balentien for relief help, where you at Krivsky. Balentien's RH power bat would have looked awful nice in Cincy.

As for the Arroyo deal, after thinking it through - I possibly would have made that deal. I am a huge fan of Yunel Escobar, plus Reyes is a solid project who projects as a #3 starter. I love Arroyo but the Reds are abusing him, so who knows how long his arm will last. I don't what to think about this potential deal.

As much as I love Griffey, I would have dealt him while he is healthy. I think he would've netted a pretty good return.

This really pisses me off. I just love it when a last place team stands pat.:rolleyes:

flyer85
07-31-2007, 07:27 PM
This really pisses me off. I just love it when a last place team stands pat.:rolleyes:It could be worse ... the Reds could have added Matt Morris :D

Always Red
07-31-2007, 07:30 PM
Screw Wayne Krivsky. I've been riding the fence on Krivsky for a while now, never was a Krivsky hater nor lover, but this pushes me over the top. I now want Krivsky fired immediately. You have a stud first base prospect in the minors ready to step up and produce, yet you hang on to Jeff Conine and Hatteberg, who have no future ahead of them in Cincinnati? Dumb. And David Weathers was one of the top relief pitchers on the market, yet he remains a Red? The M's offered top prospect Wlad Balentien for relief help, where you at Krivsky. Balentien's RH power bat would have looked awful nice in Cincy.

As for the Arroyo deal, after thinking it through - I possibly would have made that deal. I am a huge fan of Yunel Escobar, plus Reyes is a solid project who projects as a #3 starter. I love Arroyo but the Reds are abusing him, so who knows how long his arm will last. I don't what to think about this potential deal.

As much as I love Griffey, I would have dealt him while he is healthy. I think he would've netted a pretty good return.

This really pisses me off. I just love it when a last place team stands pat.:rolleyes:

excellent rant! :thumbup:

pedro
07-31-2007, 07:36 PM
Screw Wayne Krivsky. I've been riding the fence on Krivsky for a while now, never was a Krivsky hater nor lover, but this pushes me over the top. I now want Krivsky fired immediately. You have a stud first base prospect in the minors ready to step up and produce, yet you hang on to Jeff Conine and Hatteberg, who have no future ahead of them in Cincinnati? Dumb. And David Weathers was one of the top relief pitchers on the market, yet he remains a Red? The M's offered top prospect Wlad Balentien for relief help, where you at Krivsky. Balentien's RH power bat would have looked awful nice in Cincy.

As for the Arroyo deal, after thinking it through - I possibly would have made that deal. I am a huge fan of Yunel Escobar, plus Reyes is a solid project who projects as a #3 starter. I love Arroyo but the Reds are abusing him, so who knows how long his arm will last. I don't what to think about this potential deal.

As much as I love Griffey, I would have dealt him while he is healthy. I think he would've netted a pretty good return.

This really pisses me off. I just love it when a last place team stands pat.:rolleyes:

I like Votto and all, but stud's OPS more than .869 in AAA.

I think Reyes is fools gold.

I think trading Weathers for scraps is a dumb idea.

Some of the spare parts such as Conine will be dumped, just not today.

nate
07-31-2007, 07:38 PM
Screw Wayne Krivsky. I've been riding the fence on Krivsky for a while now, never was a Krivsky hater nor lover, but this pushes me over the top. I now want Krivsky fired immediately. You have a stud first base prospect in the minors ready to step up and produce, yet you hang on to Jeff Conine and Hatteberg, who have no future ahead of them in Cincinnati? Dumb. And David Weathers was one of the top relief pitchers on the market, yet he remains a Red? The M's offered top prospect Wlad Balentien for relief help, where you at Krivsky. Balentien's RH power bat would have looked awful nice in Cincy.

As for the Arroyo deal, after thinking it through - I possibly would have made that deal. I am a huge fan of Yunel Escobar, plus Reyes is a solid project who projects as a #3 starter. I love Arroyo but the Reds are abusing him, so who knows how long his arm will last. I don't what to think about this potential deal.

As much as I love Griffey, I would have dealt him while he is healthy. I think he would've netted a pretty good return.

This really pisses me off. I just love it when a last place team stands pat.:rolleyes:

How do you know that any of those offers really happened?

It might have, it might not have...only the GMs know and we'll only know if they decide to talk about it.

redsfan4445
07-31-2007, 07:39 PM
maybe BOB has a plan and cant spill the beans because it would be tampering.. AND told Wayne to not do anything?? maybe Wayne acting all gaga over Pete at the press conference, made BOB realize "I got to find a GM that can keep it together and improve this team..hmm Jockety comes to mind"

i surely thought Hatteburg was going to be traded to the Yankees for that AA pitcher.. i cant recall his name and Conine would be shipped to the Mets for a minor leauger..THEN Votto would have been brought up to play 1st!

I am glad Bronson didnt get traded!!.. that would tell the fans "sorry we changed the plan to bring a championship team here.. uh its going to take 10 years!! but keep coming out to get them bobbleheads!!"

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2007, 07:41 PM
Another thing:

This dumb organization calls up Bailey when he was not ready to pitch in the big leagues, yet absolutely refuses to call up the one guy (Votto) who is ready for the majors? This may be the dumbest organization in sports.

The Cincinnati good 'ole boy network.

edabbs44
07-31-2007, 07:42 PM
How do you know that any of those offers really happened?

It might have, it might not have...only the GMs know and we'll only know if they decide to talk about it.

This is one of the favorite excuses for Krivsky, along with such favorites as "he's only been here for *current amt of time*", "a better manager would have this team in better position" and "the team was in worse shape when he got handed the reigns."

Who knows what his options were? I guess only a select few in the FO do, but bottom line is that he did nothing. Pretty scary.

nate
07-31-2007, 07:44 PM
This is one of the favorite excuses for Krivsky, along with such favorites as "he's only been here for *current amt of time*", "a better manager would have this team in better position" and "the team was in worse shape when he got handed the reigns."

Who knows what his options were? I guess only a select few in the FO do, but bottom line is that he did nothing. Pretty scary.

Explain how what I said was an excuse.

He didn't "do nothing" nor is the time to "do something" over.

How many other teams "did something"?

pedro
07-31-2007, 07:44 PM
Why is it that all the angriest clairvoyants are Reds fans?

Heath
07-31-2007, 07:45 PM
It could be worse ... the Reds could have added Matt Morris :D

Please, there are moderators of which they would like peaceful dinners and sleep. :D

nate
07-31-2007, 07:45 PM
Why is it that all the angriest clairvoyants are Reds fans?

I dunno, but all of this spleen vent is ruining my shoes.

redsmetz
07-31-2007, 07:45 PM
For the rant that said "a last place stands pat" - presently we're not the last place team. Technically, too, we didn't stand pat; we made a few small moves.

Getting the nit-picking out of the way, if making an allegedly "blockbuster" trade meant not getting fair value for the pieces we were offering, I say "well done" - settling for less is so 2006 (and I'm not sure we did that then). We witnessed a giant baseball game of "chicken" and no one blinked. The deadline is not impermeable, trades can still happen; just not as easily.

I agree with FCB (I don't think he was being sarcastic or ironic), part of me is still glad to have Adam Dunn.

The little bit of movement isn't indicative of anything really. For those who want to lop of Krivsky's head? I'll use the quote of whoever it is who thinks we're on the endless track of nothingness - lather, rinse, repeat or whatever it is. Firing the GM so quickly would be a huge step backward - Deja Vu all over again.

edabbs44
07-31-2007, 07:48 PM
Explain how what I said was an excuse.

He didn't "do nothing" nor is the time to "do something" over.

How many other teams "did something"?

It was an excuse. If it wasn't an excuse, then what was it?

"He didn't do nothing'"? What exactly did her do? Trade two younger relievers for a one year flash in the pan currently in the minors and dump his pet project? Wonderful.

The time to do something is over, since even if Conine or Hatteberg get through waivers, they won't net anything of worth. Dunn and Griffey will not make it through waivers.

nate
07-31-2007, 07:52 PM
It was an excuse. If it wasn't an excuse, then what was it?

It was a statement to the effect of "you don't know that those were deals on the table, its just something some reporter typed up and thrust out there for the masses to devour like so many peanutes."



"He didn't do nothing'"? What exactly did her do? Trade two younger relievers for a one year flash in the pan currently in the minors and dump his pet project? Wonderful.

Just because its not a sexy, multiplayer deal doesn't mean its nothing.


The time to do something is over, since even if Conine or Hatteberg get through waivers, they won't net anything of worth. Dunn and Griffey will not make it through waivers.

I disagree.

Geez...have a cream soda or something.

pedro
07-31-2007, 07:55 PM
http://www.davidlynch.de/seconddog.jpg

D-Man
07-31-2007, 08:03 PM
As each day passes, Wayne reveals himself as less than capable of both striking while the iron is hot and massaging the market when it isn't hot.

I fault Wayne for the former more than the latter.

Regarding the former, Krivsky missed an oh-so-immenent opportunity to deal Hatteberg to the Yanks in June when NY was still sorta in it.

As for the latter, only one 1B was dealt during the trade deadline, and he was an All Star. Teams were looking for pitching, relievers, and depth only. I'd rather keep Hatteberg for another 30 days than get a mediocre return. I suppose at least one of the two Reds 1Bs will be dealt in August, but that doesn't excuse Krivsky from overplaying his cards back in June.

Trade deadline aside: Boston sports fans are the new evil empire. They have no reason to gripe about their sports team for the next ten years. Seriously. It might be a Boston trifecta this year. If Simmons does another whiny Boston sports column, I'll be done with him.

Strikes Out Looking
07-31-2007, 08:07 PM
Krivsky's major mistake during his tenure as GM of the Reds was not made today (or the last week). The fact that he hung onto a manager that had lost the respect of the team and the ability to get them to play to their ability was the mistake. He did fix it, however, it was much too late to be able to evaluate his players under an average manager (I believe Petey Mac is average). Thus, I believe Wayne made no moves today because 1.) He's still not sure what direction to take with players like Dunn, 2.) after last year's deal with the Nat's, he may be a bit gunshy on trades at the deadline, and 3.) He wasn't offered what he thought was Fair market value.

By the way, this is only my opinion--I am not clairvoyant!

nate
07-31-2007, 08:09 PM
Krivsky's major mistake during his tenure as GM of the Reds was not made today (or the last week). The fact that he hung onto a manager that had lost the respect of the team and the ability to get them to play to their ability was the mistake. He did fix it, however, it was much too late to be able to evaluate his players under an average manager (I believe Petey Mac is average). Thus, I believe Wayne made no moves today because 1.) He's still not sure what direction to take with players like Dunn, 2.) after last year's deal with the Nat's, he may be a bit gunshy on trades at the deadline, and 3.) He wasn't offered what he thought was Fair market value.

By the way, this is only my opinion--I am not clairvoyant!

Good points! I agree with 3 the most.

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 08:10 PM
1) he has no plan, then

2) Then he should find another line of work

3) The most reasonable.

Marc D
07-31-2007, 08:15 PM
1) he has no plan, then

2) Then he should find another line of work

3) The most reasonable.


Agree with 1 and 2

How long are we using #3? I thought that was the excuse for doing nothing this past off season?

nate
07-31-2007, 08:16 PM
Agree with 1 and 2

How long are we using #3? I thought that was the excuse for doing nothing this past off season?

Maybe the market didn't get better or (pinky to mouth) got worse?

Matt700wlw
07-31-2007, 08:17 PM
Agree with 1 and 2

How long are we using #3? I thought that was the excuse for doing nothing this past off season?

It's an excuse, but it works :)

Always Red
07-31-2007, 08:18 PM
Maybe the market didn't get better or (pinky to mouth) got worse?

Yes, I noticed that the Padres did not improve their club, either...

nate
07-31-2007, 08:22 PM
Yes, I noticed that the Padres did not improve their club, either...

Did we need another infielder? Another left-handed batter?

Don't they already have good pitching?

Don't they need hitting?

M2
07-31-2007, 08:35 PM
John Fay speculated a couple of days ago that Wayne might want to give Pete a fair shake as far as winning the manager job. He couldn't trade any major talent away in order to do that.

Man, I hope that's wrong because if that's Wayne's thinking he needs to be fired immediately (and I'm not currently in the Krivsky-must-go camp).

First, evaluating Mackanin on his W-L is such a grade school way of running the club. Krivsky's the GM for crying out loud. If he wants Mackanin as the permanent manager then he should insist on Mackanin as the permanent manager. Beyond that, there's other ways to judge a manager, most having to do with his handling of players and game situations. I'd expect a good organization to evaluate its field captain beyond some simpleton metric.

Second, and this is the firing offense part of it, if Krivsky is willfully not pursuing the moves this franchise needs to return to prominence in order to protect a crony in the near term then that's about the worst accusation you can toss at a GM. It's dereliction of duty.

I certainly hope this is just another one of those dumb things John Fay thinks and then writes/utters for public consumption.

Always Red
07-31-2007, 08:35 PM
Did we need another infielder? Another left-handed batter?

Don't they already have good pitching?

Don't they need hitting?

And what do our Redlegs need? Wait, I'll answer that- everything.

Something needed to be done today. Some changes, of some kind. Standing still, standing pat, with this team is not an answer.

Moving forward.

Are you happy with nothing being done?

Do you think this team is on the cusp of winning a championship, as it is right now?

The excuses I've heard today include mostly that the right players were not there. How does anyone know that? Well, Morgan Ensberg is a guy who could help this team out. Even when his BA is .230, he's still getting on base 37-38% of the time, and he has RH pop. He could platoon at 1B with Votto and back up 3B, or even replace EE if that's what the powers that be decide. At the very least, he's cheap for the rest of this year, knows how to get on base, and has RH power off the bench.

This team needs to improve its OBP.

Doing exactly nothing is no answer for this team.

I'm glad that Arroyo and Dunn were not traded. They, along with Junior and Harang, are the best players on this team. We need more guys like them.

There are a multitude of little moves that need to be done. But, OK, we have an admittedly sore-shouldered Elizardo, and Bellhorn.

At least Bellhorn can hit better than Moeller.

I think Krivsky is paralyzed with fear after being ridiculed so badly last year (maybe unfairly ridiculed, at that, as it turns out). So now, he's reduced to turning over rocks in hopes of finding a player or two (Hammy). He's good at that, no doubt. But this team needs a GM who knows how to deal, how to bluff, how to make a move happen.

Today is the first day that I am convinced that Krivsky is not the guy to do that.

pedro
07-31-2007, 08:38 PM
Man, I hope that's wrong because if that's Wayne's thinking he needs to be fired immediately (and I'm not currently in the Krivsky-must-go camp).

First, evaluating Mackanin on his W-L is such a grade school way of running the club. Krivsky's the GM for crying out loud. If he wants Mackanin as the permanent manager then he should insist on Mackanin as the permanent manager. Beyond that, there's other ways to judge a manager, most having to do with his handling of players and game situation. I'd expect a good organization to evaluate its field captain beyond some simpleton metric.

Second, and this is the firing offense part of it, if Krivsky is willfully not pursuing the moves this franchise needs to return to prominence in order to protect a crony in the near term then that's about the worst accusation you can toss at a GM. It's dereliction of duty.

I certainly hope this is just another one of those dumb things John Fay thinks and then writes/utters for public consumption.

I agree.

IslandRed
07-31-2007, 08:48 PM
I certainly hope this is just another one of those dumb things John Fay thinks and then writes/utters for public consumption.

He certainly likes to dive into bubblegum psychoanalysis. Fortunately, he's wrong most of the time, so it's easy for me to discard stuff like this.

IslandRed
07-31-2007, 08:56 PM
You're right--it is more of an offseason thing--Wayne did nothing then too.

As each day passes, Wayne reveals himself as less than capable of both striking while the iron is hot and massaging the market when it isn't hot.

Fair criticism. Even if I don't agree with it, I can at least understand how a GM (with an owner breathing down his neck) could choose the course of action he did last offseason. No such slack next time around. If there is a next offseason for WK, that is.

Actually, in a way it would make me feel better if everything's been 100% his idea. A bad GM can be replaced. Bad strategic direction coming straight from the owner's box? Much harder.

MrCinatit
07-31-2007, 09:05 PM
During the off season, I watched the moves with the small hope that the vets would be used as trade bait later in the season, if it became obvious that the Reds were nowhere near contention.
We are nowhere near contention. And the vets are still here. Only a couple of stinking moves were made - both of them being "easy" moves.
I've fallen very far off the fence. Wayne is not the way to go.

mth123
07-31-2007, 09:22 PM
Not making a big deal for players with some value like Dunn, Griffey, Arroyo, Hatte and Weathers is one thing. No need to dump them for a poor return. I wasn't in favor of a Dunn or Arroyo deal anyway. I might have been willing to sell off the others for a long-term something versus a long term nothing.

The real failing here is not clearing the decks of as much roster junk as possible. The team is hamstrung by the nickle-dime 2008 contracts committed to the likes of Stanton and Freel. Conine has no future in this organization and it seems a couple of replacements were acquired or brought up in Cantu and Bellhorn. With Gonzalez back, Keppinger may need those ABs as well.

Frankly, I'm more disappointed in who wasn't subtracted than I am in who wasn't added.

Rojo
07-31-2007, 09:31 PM
Doesn't look like the buyers were doing much buying -- I'm glad Krivsky didn't peddle for the sake of it.

I would've given Stanton and Conine away but this deadline doesn't mean that much for those two.

REDREAD
07-31-2007, 10:35 PM
Looks like Wayne was more concerned about avoiding a mistake than being proactive.

This lowers Wayne's grade as a GM even further.

At bare minimum, he should've moved Conine and Lohse. He could've probably gotten similiar talent to what he gave up for them (at least). If he absolutely had to keep Hat, I could accept that, but sitting on his rearend doing nothing isn't going to help the future.

We gave up prospects for Lohse and Conine, and at the end of the year, we'll have nothing to show for it. Another example of draining the talent level of the organization, even though we didn't give up a whole lot for them.

August post deadline deals are a lot more difficult to make. The Reds haven't done a good one since Greene-Hammonds. The 2003 dumps of Sullivan, Heredia, etc don't count as good ones.

If Wayne is going to become paralyzed with fear of failure like DanO, I'd really like him fired immediately.

And who really gives a rip if Pete is given a "Fair shot" of winning? This team sucks. I really don't care who the manager is next year, Wayne can bring him back, but Wayne shouldn't use Pete as an excuse for his failure to improve the club.

pedro
07-31-2007, 10:39 PM
Looks like Wayne was more concerned about avoiding a mistake than being proactive.

This lowers Wayne's grade as a GM even further.

At bare minimum, he should've moved Conine and Lohse. He could've probably gotten similiar talent to what he gave up for them (at least). If he absolutely had to keep Hat, I could accept that, but sitting on his rearend doing nothing isn't going to help the future.

We gave up prospects for Lohse and Conine, and at the end of the year, we'll have nothing to show for it. Another example of draining the talent level of the organization, even though we didn't give up a whole lot for them.

August post deadline deals are a lot more difficult to make. The Reds haven't done a good one since Greene-Hammonds. The 2003 dumps of Sullivan, Heredia, etc don't count as good ones.

If Wayne is going to become paralyzed with fear of failure like DanO, I'd really like him fired immediately.

And who really gives a rip if Pete is given a "Fair shot" of winning? This team sucks. I really don't care who the manager is next year, Wayne can bring him back, but Wayne shouldn't use Pete as an excuse for his failure to improve the club.

Um they traded Loshe for Prospect. But don't let that stop you....

REDREAD
07-31-2007, 10:39 PM
Frankly, what I saw this deadline was a lot of teams being extra stingy with top minor league talent. If they want to play that game, I'll take my draft pick at the end of the year and be happy.
.

But we aren't eligible to get draft picks for Lohse and Conine.
Those were two that you just try to get another Zach Ward for.

Hat probably isn't good enough to get compensation for either, but I'm not 100% sure.

It would've been great to unload Stanton, just to free up cash and a roster spot for next year. Instead, we risk Father Time making Stanton even tougher to deal.

Caveat Emperor
07-31-2007, 10:43 PM
Screw Wayne Krivsky. I've been riding the fence on Krivsky for a while now, never was a Krivsky hater nor lover, but this pushes me over the top. I now want Krivsky fired immediately. You have a stud first base prospect in the minors ready to step up and produce, yet you hang on to Jeff Conine and Hatteberg, who have no future ahead of them in Cincinnati? Dumb. And David Weathers was one of the top relief pitchers on the market, yet he remains a Red? The M's offered top prospect Wlad Balentien for relief help, where you at Krivsky. Balentien's RH power bat would have looked awful nice in Cincy.

As for the Arroyo deal, after thinking it through - I possibly would have made that deal. I am a huge fan of Yunel Escobar, plus Reyes is a solid project who projects as a #3 starter. I love Arroyo but the Reds are abusing him, so who knows how long his arm will last. I don't what to think about this potential deal.

As much as I love Griffey, I would have dealt him while he is healthy. I think he would've netted a pretty good return.

This really pisses me off. I just love it when a last place team stands pat.:rolleyes:

Couple of points:

Re: Hatteberg & Conine - The latter of those two is going to pass through waivers, so he remains a viable trade option as the season moves on. The former, Hatty, I don't see a problem with holding onto. Just because Joey Votto is the heir apparent doesn't mean the club needs to cut all ties with the old guard. Hatteberg would be immensely valuable as a bat off the bench. Its laughable what has passed for pinch hitting around here recently -- having a guy like Hatteberg for late-inning swings off relievers wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Thus, if the offers for him weren't blowing you away, I don't see any loss in holding onto him. If all he nets is a couple lotter tickets in high-A and a middling AA/AAA arm, I think that's misusing an asset that could be potentially valuable next year, albeit in a different role than he has this year.

Re: David Weathers -- He's a remarkably consistent reliever on a team that hasn't had many of them since Scott Sullivan's arm exploded. If you dealt David Weathers today, you'd be stuck looking for his replacement almost immediately. There is nobody in the minors ready to replace him, and I have to imagine if a team had good young relief pitching to deal back for Weathers, they wouldn't be looking at him in the first place.

He, like Hattberg, is cost-certain for next year -- which means you lose absolutely nothing by holding onto him and possibly retain the ability to make a better deal in the future, either at the winter meetings or during the season next year. As a solid reliever with end and middle game ability, he shouldn't be cast aside for anything less than a projectable return. If you don't get it, there is no sense dumping him just for the sake of doing something. I think his value will hold, especially when teams get a look at the crap FA market for relievers this year again.

Re: Bronson Arroyo - Again, the issue of contract and cost-certainty comes into play here because you retain the ability to make a deal involving him in the offseason and into next year.

Frankly, I think dealing a pitcher like Arroyo is moronic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it puts the team deeper in the hole for starting pitching. If you assume Bailey isn't as advertised, the team has nothing on the horizon in the minors. Dealing Arroyo would require the team go out and sign another pitcher to replace him in the FA market (good luck with that, the decent pitchers that do hit the market get bid out of Cincinnati dollars in minutes) just to maintain the level of competency (2 quality starters) that the team entered this year with. Say "see ya" to an improved ballclub next year.

Further, the market for Arroyo is limited right now to teams in contention. They're the only ones talking turkey because everyone else is busy selling -- rarely do teams in the cellar make moves to add payroll and top-talent at the ML level with an eye towards competing next year. If you wait until the winter meetings and are still dead-set on moving Bronson, you make *every* team (virtually) a bidder for his services because there isn't a team in baseball that wouldn't improve their rotation by adding Arroyo.

I think the reality that everyone needs to face is that teams are hoarding minor league talent these days -- top prospects are unbelievably overvalued right now due to the belief (rightly or wrongly) that the key to playing winning baseball outside of New York, Chicago and LA is getting as young and cheap as possible. Everyone has lists upon lists of untouchable players and then demand the sun, moon and stars for the guys who weren't even good enough to make THAT list.

If anything, I'm wondering if some savvy GM couldn't make a splash by selling off minor league parts for ML return, especially guys either about to hit arbitration or just hitting arbitration, and then locking them into deals or by dealing upper level prospects for multiple high-ceiling lower level prospects. If the market is so overvaluing them, flood the market with your prosepects and see if you can't net back more return.

Regardless, I'm OK with the Reds sitting today. We all want to see the face and image of this team change, but thats only because we always envision it working out better for us than it usually does.

osuceltic
07-31-2007, 10:57 PM
Everyone making the "trade Conine for whatever ... " point ... Krivsky has to deal with these GMs in the future also. If he blinks in a negotiation and takes a guy he knows can't play -- under the theory that "I'll take what I can get," then he's saying to all those other GMs that he'll blink first.

Is a no-chance minor leaguer worth that?

I'm more upset with the failure to get anything done with Dunn. I think that's going to hold this franchise hostage into next season unless they can work out an offseason trade in conjunction with a new contract. If that's even possible with the way his deal is structured.

Patrick Bateman
07-31-2007, 11:02 PM
Has anyone come to the conclusion that Votto isn't ready for the majors, and that perhaps it would be best to wait until he will succeed in the majors, rather than start his arb. clock when he's not all that good?

I would have only dealt Hatteberg if there was a good offer on the table. He has a sweet option for next season where he would make a terrific bench player, and insurance in case Votto isn't ready for the show next season.

Nobody knows the true offers on the table. What we do know is that Davies was had for Dotel, so I think that would be the best possible return for Weathers. Perhaps not even that. If teams are offering nothing but crap, Krivsky should be taking a hard lined stance to tell teams that they are going to have to part with something of value to get a player they want, otherwise every year you will be selling off useable parts for middling prospects who never help down the line. Weathers has a solid contract for next season and maybe a team will give a more serious offer later on.

I'm not saying I'm pleased Weathers and Conine are still here, but it takes two to tango. We don't know the offers on the table, and knowing how little activity there was at the deadline, I'd be surprised if there was much value coming back in trade offers. Anyways, I'm conent with Votto in AAA. He's doing good, but he's hardly mopping the floor with pitching. He's doing fine, but I'd like to see him further develop. I have no problem with Hat/Conine for the remainder of the season.

The supposed Arroyo trade would have been an absolute train wreck. You don't see off an above average starter at a very fair contract for an infielder who projects as an average 2nd basemen and a starter who may never be more than AAAA calibre. Once Salty was traded to Texas, I had zero interest in trading with the Braves. They didn't have enough to make an Arroyo trade worthwhile.

REDREAD
07-31-2007, 11:20 PM
Um they traded Loshe for Prospect. But don't let that stop you....

Ok.. thanks, I didn't see a sticky, and I was going under the premise that nothing happened today. I'm obviously a bit behind, so I stand corrected.

In any event, that's good that Wayne at least unloaded Lohse for something.

EDIT: I see I missed that yesterday.

Unassisted
08-01-2007, 12:50 AM
I certainly hope this is just another one of those dumb things John Fay thinks and then writes/utters for public consumption.

It was total speculation on Fay's part and he even admitted as much. The problem is that people here have taken that "preserve the team for Mack" ball and run with it. What they've failed to notice about that ball before working themselves into a lather over what it means is that the ball has Fay's name on it and not Krivsky's.

Kc61
08-01-2007, 01:01 AM
Right now, it is hard to see what the plan is.

The Reds aren't trying to get young. They aren't moving older players for youth. They aren't stockpiling kids like Florida did so many times via trades of veterans. The last two drafts, under this FO, have been ok but haven't brought any big time pitching prospects.

The Reds aren't trying to win now. They haven't traded for good pitching. They didn't sign a single free agent starter last off-season. The pitching staff right now is two good starters, David Weathers, and a couple of possibilities in the pen.

Maybe they are standing still until they hire a big time manager who will direct the next series of moves. But based on the recent history, I doubt even that.

I wish I could engage the team's top brass in a discussion of their plan, because even to a fan who closely follows the team, it is not readily apparent.

pedro
08-01-2007, 03:33 AM
Ok.. thanks, I didn't see a sticky, and I was going under the premise that nothing happened today. I'm obviously a bit behind, so I stand corrected.

In any event, that's good that Wayne at least unloaded Lohse for something.

EDIT: I see I missed that yesterday.

I kind of like Maloney too. He seems Like a trade up too. Had a good year in 2006 anyway. We'll see. Big lefties always have some sort of allure.

Jpup
08-01-2007, 05:44 AM
I can't imagine why Jeff Conine or Mike Stanton are still Cincinnati Reds. I'm glad Krivsky did not trade any of the rest. Hatteberg will be needed for next season because I'm not sure Votto can just be handed the job until he mashes a little more in AAA and succeeds for a while. Arroyo would be untouchable unless I was really getting a ton back. Jo-Jo Reyes is fool's gold IMO. Escobar I couldn't really comment much on because I haven't watched him played much or even looked at his numbers. I watched Reyes pitch 2 times on ESPN and he looks a lot like a guy the Braves would like to unload on an unsuspecting club that they have been beating to death for 15 years.

As far as the rest: Dunn, well my feelings are known as far as he is concerned. I can find no real reason to trade him. Jr., well he has to approve any trade and I would think that Atlanta would be one of a small handful of teams he was willing to go to. The Braves didn't have many extra chips after trading for Texeira and they got the pop they need now. Weathers, is signed for a very reasonable contract and someone is needed in the Reds bullpen because I don't see anything of much value there right now and really not a lot on the horizon.

I would have traded other guys that I think are just spare parts, but they aren't really performing in Cincinnati so what makes anyone think they would perform anywhere else? I would have loved for the Reds to have gotten Saltalamacchia, but I doubt he was ever available after the Braves got in on Texeira. I am almost suprised that we didn't see Dunn dealt to LA, either one, for something that we would hate. Can you tell I have lost all confidence in the Reds front office?

For those that keep saying that the Reds don't have a plan, well that is bunk. Bob Castellini said the plan is to, "win at the Major League level." Now, how to get there is the real question. I still say that Paul DePodesta would be a good start. Keep Tony LaRussa and Walt Jocketty away from Cincinnati. I would rather have Tony Danza, he could at least get Alyssa Milano to make a guest appearance at GABP.

...now, on with the losing. :(

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 07:41 AM
Funny....people were screaming after the trade that if that's all Kriv could get for FeLo and AK then he should have walked away and stood pat. He was an idiot for giving them away for nothing. Now, when apparently the available deals out there weren't so great, and he stood pat, he's an idiot for not giving players away for nothing. Good to see he can do exactly what some here at RZ wanted him to do...and still get slagged.

Let's see; he didn't get rid of Dunn for peanuts. That's good. He didn't trade Arroyo in some goofy deal for prospects and thus sqander our a hyper-critical pitching resource. That's good. He didn't dump EE (because they hate him you know) for a tub of rosin. That's good. He unloaded Loshe for a decent/interesting arm (a move most here seemed to like). That's good.

Yet the angst is at a fever pitch that this was a horrable deadline season for Kriv? Hummm...the black hellicopter crowd that thinks Wayne can't catch a break might be onto something.

I am suprised that there wern't any other deals, yes. However, when I scan BP's list of transactions, I don't see every other team in MLB making 100 trades while we do nothing. I would have liked to see us move Conine, Freel and Weathers while the moving was good, but if there were no deals to be made, what's the point. If Kriv moved them for another nobody, people would poo-poo the move as "nothing for nothing" and rolled their eyes. I figured Hatte would bring something nice in return, however, I see the point others have made that he could be a usefull stopgap next year.

Weathers, that's a guy I'd consider a mistake for hanging onto. Yes he's the only consistant bullpen arm, however, the chances of him duplicating this success next year are low. In a pitching starved market, this was the time to get a strong return for him.

I expected more activity from the Reds. As someone said, standing pat with a horrable team doesn't make lots of sense. Overall, I'm confused about the outcome of this trade deadline. Overall I expected more activity, however, that Kriv didn't make some of the mistakes he could have made is a sucesss in my book. So after all this gibberish I'm not really sure how I feal about it.

nate
08-01-2007, 08:18 AM
The Reds aren't trying to get young. They aren't moving older players for youth. They aren't stockpiling kids like Florida did so many times via trades of veterans. The last two drafts, under this FO, have been ok but haven't brought any big time pitching prospects.

I think all of the guys we traded for this past week are younger than the guys we traded.


The Reds aren't trying to win now. They haven't traded for good pitching. They didn't sign a single free agent starter last off-season. The pitching staff right now is two good starters, David Weathers, and a couple of possibilities in the pen.

I don't think you're going to be happy with this offseason either because unless they go for Zambrano, the free agency starting pitching tree is looking pretty senior and / or barren.

Although, a guy who has pitched a no-hitter is available!

I do agree with your assessment of the pitching staff.


I wish I could engage the team's top brass in a discussion of their plan, because even to a fan who closely follows the team, it is not readily apparent.

Well, the plan for every team is to get better...I know Wayne says that and we freak out here but what is he supposed to say?

I see the tactics used to execute that plan as:


horde as much potential as possible, see what sticks
try to capitalize on rebounding veterens, see what sticks
flip potential and rebounds when the time is right
make safe trades


Maybe not sexy or exciting but that's what it looks like they're doing to me.

edabbs44
08-01-2007, 08:27 AM
horde as much potential as possible, see what sticks
try to capitalize on rebounding veterens, see what sticks
flip potential and rebounds when the time is right
make safe trades


Maybe not sexy or exciting but that's what it looks like they're doing to me.

Agree with that, except for #1. Maybe they are hording as much potential as possible without risking anything, but hey can do more in the hording department if you ask me.

I guess bottom line is, will this be enough? I doubt it. This FO needs to get a set and do something. Mostly betting on longshots isn't the best strategy.

MrCinatit
08-01-2007, 08:28 AM
Ok.. thanks, I didn't see a sticky, and I was going under the premise that nothing happened today. I'm obviously a bit behind, so I stand corrected.

In any event, that's good that Wayne at least unloaded Lohse for something.

EDIT: I see I missed that yesterday.

Wait...I thought every major network on the planet had around the clock coverage about the Lohse trade! :p:

nate
08-01-2007, 08:46 AM
Agree with that, except for #1. Maybe they are hording as much potential as possible without risking anything, but hey can do more in the hording department if you ask me.

Gnashed teeth from "OMG THREE CATCHERS IS THAT ENOUGH? LOLLL" and "WTF ANOTHER INFIELDER....NOOB!" covers the ground around here like Kudzu.


I guess bottom line is, will this be enough? I doubt it. This FO needs to get a set and do something. Mostly betting on longshots isn't the best strategy.

I understand your frustration but I don't think "don't just stand there, do something!" is any more a plan than "win now."

I think baseball club change takes place on a more gradual pace than us win-starved Reds fans are willing to put up with. BTW, as someone mentioned the other day, look at Detroit's transaction list from 2002 - present...it contains much hilarity.

jojo
08-01-2007, 08:53 AM
Funny....people were screaming after the trade that if that's all Kriv could get for FeLo and AK then he should have walked away and stood pat. He was an idiot for giving them away for nothing. Now, when apparently the available deals out there weren't so great, and he stood pat, he's an idiot for not giving players away for nothing. Good to see he can do exactly what some here at RZ wanted him to do...and still get slagged.

Let's see; he didn't get rid of Dunn for peanuts. That's good. He didn't trade Arroyo in some goofy deal for prospects and thus sqander our a hyper-critical pitching resource. That's good. He didn't dump EE (because they hate him you know) for a tub of rosin. That's good. He unloaded Loshe for a decent/interesting arm (a move most here seemed to like). That's good.

Yet the angst is at a fever pitch that this was a horrable deadline season for Kriv? Hummm...the black hellicopter crowd that thinks Wayne can't catch a break might be onto something.

I am suprised that there wern't any other deals, yes. However, when I scan BP's list of transactions, I don't see every other team in MLB making 100 trades while we do nothing. I would have liked to see us move Conine, Freel and Weathers while the moving was good, but if there were no deals to be made, what's the point. If Kriv moved them for another nobody, people would poo-poo the move as "nothing for nothing" and rolled their eyes. I figured Hatte would bring something nice in return, however, I see the point others have made that he could be a usefull stopgap next year.

Weathers, that's a guy I'd consider a mistake for hanging onto. Yes he's the only consistant bullpen arm, however, the chances of him duplicating this success next year are low. In a pitching starved market, this was the time to get a strong return for him.

I expected more activity from the Reds. As someone said, standing pat with a horrable team doesn't make lots of sense. Overall, I'm confused about the outcome of this trade deadline. Overall I expected more activity, however, that Kriv didn't make some of the mistakes he could have made is a sucesss in my book. So after all this gibberish I'm not really sure how I feal about it.


Pretty much spot on.

REDREAD
08-01-2007, 11:22 PM
I kind of like Maloney too. He seems Like a trade up too. Had a good year in 2006 anyway. We'll see. Big lefties always have some sort of allure.

I really can't complain about that move. That's all I was really asking for Wayne to do.. move the guys that won't be here next year and move Stanton if possible.

At least he moved Lohse for something that might be useful. Even if Maloney washes out, at least there was some effort to do the right thing.

By the same token, I didn't mind the Deno trade either. We may ultimately lose that one, as MacBeth has been kind of underwhelming, but I liked the thought process behind it.