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WVRedsFan
08-01-2007, 05:13 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/reds/2007-07-31-reds-griffeydunn_N.htm

Interesting article on the two guys who have contributed 121 runs, 191 hits, 52 home runs, and 134 RBI's to a losing team and without whom the Reds would have probably already lost 85 games this year.




WASHINGTON — Ken Griffey strolled into the Cincinnati Reds' clubhouse at RFK Stadium about 45 minutes after Tuesday's trading deadline, grabbed a bag of chips and a sports drink and sat down at a table.
"Where you been?" said teammate Ryan Freel.

"Hey, it's the trade deadline," Griffey said. "I didn't want to have to go back to the hotel to get my stuff."

Then he laughed.

"Nah, the kids are in town," Griffey said.

He and Freel were at the same table where Adam Dunn sat by himself as the clock ticked past the 4 p.m. deadline, where Dunn repeatedly shuffled and cut a deck of cards, banging them on the table more emphatically each time.

Dunn's face was red. So was his shirt. He is still the Reds' left fielder.

"I'm sick of it," Dunn said of the deadline that passed without him being traded despite persistent rumors. "Whatever happens, happens. I've been told it can still happen in August. I don't know. I don't know. … whatever."

Dunn wouldn't say if he was disappointed because he was still a Red or just weary of the uncertainty.

"I'm just employee number 44," he said, referring to his uniform number. "All this bothers my mom more than me. She's so sick and tired of it."

By the time Griffey arrived, Dunn was back to his normal routine, heading to the batting cage to prepare for another game. The only move the Reds had made was sending pitcher Kyle Lohse to Philadelphia on Monday for minor league pitcher Matt Maloney.

While Dunn was consumed by the uncertainty, Griffey had spent the day touring Washington with wife Melissa and their three children. They spent much of the time touring the National Geographic Society headquarters. He even had to take time to walk the family dog, who came along, too.

He also remains with the Reds and sounds like Dunn in one respect.

"I'm just employee number 3," Griffey said.

Not exactly. With more than 10 years in the major leagues and at least the last five with his current team, Griffey must approve any trade. He wouldn't say if he had the opportunity to consider any potential trades but, even if he had, Tuesday wasn't the day.

"Deals for guys like me don't get done at the deadline," Griffey said, reaching down to pull on a new pair of white cleats with red and black trim.

"New shoes for deadline day," he said. "The Nike guys said, 'We don't know what color to make for you.' I said to just make the same ones. We can change to blue or black or whatever later."

While Dunn's name was the one mentioned most often in the weeks leading up to the trade deadline, speculation surrounded Griffey after he made several comments earlier in the season that he would be willing to consider trades.

Teams can make trades after yesterday's deadline, but any players involved must first pass through waivers. That's something Dunn was acutely aware of.

ochre
08-01-2007, 05:19 PM
This article, along with some of the other reports from the last few years, really has me wondering about the level and quality of the communication that occurs from the front office down to the field. Granted it's never necessarily been a Cincinnati strength (that I can remember), but it seems more often than not alienation is, whether intentional, or not, the result (goal?).

Tom Servo
08-01-2007, 05:21 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.

Matt700wlw
08-01-2007, 05:22 PM
I'd hate to be #0....

Aronchis
08-01-2007, 05:25 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.

Then the Reds get picks.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 05:30 PM
I wonder if Dunn was told he was going to be traded :dunno:

11larkin11
08-01-2007, 05:33 PM
I think Dunn wanted to pull a Cantu and switch lockerooms so he could be with AK.

flyer85
08-01-2007, 05:49 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.I think the answer is no on both ends. If the Reds wanted to keep him they wouldn't be trying to trade him ... and all the stuff surrounding getting rid of him obviously has worn on Dunn(even it he tries to laugh it off, this time he didn't).

BrooklynRedz
08-01-2007, 05:50 PM
I think Dunn wanted to pull a Cantu and switch lockerooms so he could be with AK.

They can spoon after the game in the comfort of their suite.

What a joke. I know Dunn isn't walking the streets in search of a newspaper reporter to vent to, but c'mon. What's with all the drama? Dude makes $10mil+ with the guarantee of more next season. What difference does it make? For all we read about the easy-going Texan just counting the minutes until his next fishin' trip, what's with all the bluster? Maybe he should pay more attention to baseball to understand that baseball players are occasionally traded. It happens to the best and worst of them. It's not personal. Certainly no more personal than a dude dropping a fly ball or hitting a home run. Get over it.

redsfan30
08-01-2007, 05:57 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.

This won't be popular, but the fact that Adam Dunn was reportedly willing to sign a long term extention with Washington bothers me. He's willing to play on a horrible team just to be with his friend? That doesn't show me that winning is the number one priority.

I fully know that I will get blasted for the above statement, and that's fine. But if he was indeed willing to sign in Washington that would seem to me to be a pretty good indicator of where his priorities are. Quite honestly if he's not here to win, I don't want him.

osuceltic
08-01-2007, 05:57 PM
They can spoon after the game in the comfort of their suite.

What a joke. I know Dunn isn't walking the streets in search of a newspaper reporter to vent to, but c'mon. What's with all the drama? Dude makes $10mil+ with the guarantee of more next season. What difference does it make? For all we read about the easy-going Texan just counting the minutes until his next fishin' trip, what's with all the bluster? Maybe he should pay more attention to baseball to understand that baseball players are occasionally traded. It happens to the best and worst of them. It's not personal. Certainly no more personal than a dude dropping a fly ball or hitting a home run. Get over it.

No kidding. Console yourself with your $10 million salary and the fact that you're "earning" it by not getting one iota better since the first day you stepped on a major league field. Many, many better players than Adam Dunn have been traded or discussed in trades over the years.

As I've said before ... this team is far too comfortable.

Big Klu
08-01-2007, 05:58 PM
I'd hate to be #0....

Curtis Goodwin was once #00.

osuceltic
08-01-2007, 05:58 PM
This won't be popular, but the fact that Adam Dunn was reportedly willing to sign a long term extention with Washington bothers me. He's willing to play on a horrible team just to be with his friend? That doesn't show me that winning is the number one priority.

I fully know that I will get blasted for the above statement, and that's fine. But if he was indeed willing to sign in Washington that would seem to me to be a pretty good indicator of where his priorities are. Quite honestly if he's not here to win, I don't want him.

You needed this to make that clear to you? The guy is worse today than he was his first day in a Reds uniform. He consistently carries too much weight and gets worse instead of better defensively. Do you really think he's consumed by winning?

registerthis
08-01-2007, 06:03 PM
While Dunn was consumed by the uncertainty, Griffey had spent the day touring Washington with wife Melissa and their three children. They spent much of the time touring the National Geographic Society headquarters.

Gah! Junior was only 6 blocks from my home. I would have invited him over if I had known. Oh well. :(

registerthis
08-01-2007, 06:04 PM
The guy is worse today than he was his first day in a Reds uniform.

Based on what, exactly?

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2007, 06:05 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.

You should have drawn that conclusion awhile ago, he doesn't like it here and neither does Jr. Can't say I blame them, of course guys like me are the reason they are so fed up.

We (guys like me) just cannot stand mediocrity at best and the Reds are just that and more. I always try to remain optimistic but a little of my fiery nature spills out from time to time. And that's when my venom goes towards a player at the top or an organization head. Leadership starts at the top, top of the organization for putting a poor product on the field, and top of the leadership on the field for playing under their ability constantly.

It's certainly not all Dunn and Griffey's fault but they are the leaders of this team on the field whether they like it or not. Guys follow them and for them to have such a non-chalant attitude all these yrs has done nothing but drove us further into the abyss.

Sure perhaps they "lead by example" but when's the last time either of these 2 actually displayed an example that was worth following on a consistent basis. When's the last time you heard Griffey jump somebody's backside for not hustling, it's a little hard to yell at someone else for something you don't do yourself. I guess he led by example there. I guess maybe I am being too hard on Dunn, he just been led astray somewhat by someone leading by example.

No neither of them has said it publicly that they want out but you can rest assured it's constantly on their minds.

Now don't take this and turn it into me saying these guys are worthless ball players or horrible people or people undeserving of an organization or a fanbase appreciating them. By most all accounts both of these guys are extremely good human beings and great guys. The type we all might want to hang out with. But are they the kind of guys you would want to go to war with, are they gonna give you their all?

I dunno but my gut says no, maybe employee #44 if he wasn't being influenced by employee #3.

MWM
08-01-2007, 06:13 PM
So how much money do you have to mkae before you're not allowed to feel any emotions or feel any frustration. Is it $100k, $1MM, $5MM? What's the cutoff? Just curious, because while I don't make as much as Dunn, I do get frustrated some times. Am I supposed to sit tight and not say anything because I'm paid a salary?

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 06:13 PM
This won't be popular, but the fact that Adam Dunn was reportedly willing to sign a long term extention with Washington bothers me. He's willing to play on a horrible team just to be with his friend? That doesn't show me that winning is the number one priority.


That Washington junk was right out of the the Washington FO, and we take it for being a fact? please..just more garbage from the garbage peddler in DC

westofyou
08-01-2007, 06:13 PM
More Yelling

Yep, baseball needs more yelling.

CTA513
08-01-2007, 06:14 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.

The Reds would have to be willing to sign him long term first.

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2007, 06:22 PM
Now don't take this and turn it into me saying these guys are worthless ball players or horrible people or people undeserving of an organization or a fanbase appreciating them. By most all accounts both of these guys are extremely good human beings and great guys. The type we all might want to hang out with. But are they the kind of guys you would want to go to war with, are they gonna give you their all?

I dunno but my gut says no, maybe employee #44 if he wasn't being influenced by employee #3.

Junior worked his tail off to rehab all his injuries. I think his work ethic speaks for itself.

dougdirt
08-01-2007, 06:25 PM
You can only lead little talent so far. Its not Griffey, nor Dunn's fault that somehow Jeff Conine hits cleanup more often than not or that Norris Hopper and Ryan Freel are starting on a daily basis and hitting 1 or 2. Its not Griffey or Dunn's fault that the BP is horrible.

Chip R
08-01-2007, 06:28 PM
This won't be popular, but the fact that Adam Dunn was reportedly willing to sign a long term extention with Washington bothers me. He's willing to play on a horrible team just to be with his friend? That doesn't show me that winning is the number one priority.

I fully know that I will get blasted for the above statement, and that's fine. But if he was indeed willing to sign in Washington that would seem to me to be a pretty good indicator of where his priorities are. Quite honestly if he's not here to win, I don't want him.


Assuming that is true, why wouldn't Dunn want to sign a multi-year extention if it were offered to him by any team? The only teams that he could negotiate with are the Reds and Nats and the Reds weren't offering to re-up him. You never know when a career ending injury can come. Let's say they did trade him to the Nats and he wanted to try his luck as a free agent after the season. Tonight he runs after a ball and tears up his knee and it's bad enough that he can't play any more. The Nats would only be obligated to pay him through the end of the season. After that he doesn't get any more money. Now if he signs an extention and suffers a career ending injury he has that extra money. He may not need it but it's better than nothing.

And who says the Nats can't be good in the future? I'm sure people wondered what Terry Pendelton was thinking about when he signed with the Braves.

Redsland
08-01-2007, 06:30 PM
More Yelling

Yep, baseball needs more yelling.
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2052375070731.gif

New Fever
08-01-2007, 06:34 PM
I think a lot of people base their thoughts on how things were when they played a game. Do you really think a professional athlete would not play his hardest? Especially one that is about to have his contract renewed or sign a long term deal with some team. If he goes out and has a bad year because he is not playing hard or is not in shape he would cost himself millions of dollars, people just don't do that.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 06:37 PM
"I'm just employee number 44," he said, referring to his uniform number. "All this bothers my mom more than me. She's so sick and tired of it.".

Anyone else think it was weird that Dunn said almost the exact same thing that DDN reported vis Marty B?


"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."

Pawining his (justifiable) frustration off on his mom in both cases? Weird.

I'm reading the tea leaves here, but I think articles like this one point to ship that isn't run very tightly. Whether that be becuase of lack of communication, lack of direction, lack of purpose, lack of leadership or all of the above.

This may be Jr and Dunn being jokesters (the part about "we're employee such and so). It may also be signs that the origization has lots of behind-closed doors issues.

westofyou
08-01-2007, 06:41 PM
Pawining his (justifiable) frustration off on his mom in both cases? Weird.

Maybe... just maybe it's a true statement?

As in, I don't care, but my mom does.......

If that's "pawning" then it's a shame that it's construed that way, because I'm fairly certain his Mom probably does find the "telling it like it is" by Marty to be just what it is, telling it like it is from his POV, and one that isn't conveyed in a classy, nor professional manner half the time.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 06:43 PM
Maybe... just maybe it's a true statement?

As in, I don't care, but my mom does.......

If that's "pawning" then it's a shame that it's construed that way, because I'm fairly certain his Mom probably does find the "telling it like it is" by Marty to be just what it is, telling it like it is from his POV, and one that isn't conveyed in a classy, nor professional manner half the time.

Of course, it may very well be true. I was just pointing out that it was weird that he used the exact same phrasing in both comments to two different reporters in stories that showed up on the same day.

westofyou
08-01-2007, 06:44 PM
Of course, it may very well be true. I was just pointing out that it was weird that he used the exact same phrasing in both comments to two different reporters in stories that showed up on the same day.

You don't think the reporters were standing right there next to each other when the comment came out?

It was 1:00, he was in the clubhouse, the writers were too... looking for a story.

They found it.

He didn't go looking for them.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 06:47 PM
You don't think the reporters were standing right there next to each other when the comment came out?

It was 1:00, he was in the clubhouse, the writers were too... looking for a story.

They found it.

He didn't go looking for them.

Uh....the comments were on two different subjects (one Marty, one the prospects of being traded). If they both heard the same comment then one of them totally changed what Dunn said and slipped the "it bothers my mom" part into a totally different story.

And I didn't say he went looking for them.

I'm not picking on Dunner. Simply pointing out that it was odd he used the exact same phrase in two seperate and unrealated stories.

redsmetz
08-01-2007, 06:56 PM
This won't be popular, but the fact that Adam Dunn was reportedly willing to sign a long term extention with Washington bothers me. He's willing to play on a horrible team just to be with his friend? That doesn't show me that winning is the number one priority.

I fully know that I will get blasted for the above statement, and that's fine. But if he was indeed willing to sign in Washington that would seem to me to be a pretty good indicator of where his priorities are. Quite honestly if he's not here to win, I don't want him.

I think someone else pointed this out, but Bowden is most likely blowing it out his rear end. He couldn't have talked to Dunn or his agent without first agreeing to a specific trade and getting permission from the Commissioner's office for the negotiation window. The person who mentioned this said that's always done publically.

Plus this morning's Enquirer had done saying they had not been told of any negotiations that needed to be done.

Jim Bowden...consider the source. I'd sooner believe a snake oil salesman.

redsmetz
08-01-2007, 07:01 PM
Uh....the comments were on two different subjects (one Marty, one the prospects of being traded). If they both heard the same comment then one of them totally changed what Dunn said and slipped the "it bothers my mom" part into a totally different story.

And I didn't say he went looking for them.

I'm not picking on Dunner. Simply pointing out that it was odd he used the exact same phrase in two seperate and unrealated stories.

Ab, oftentimes reporters congregate around a player and they make notes of those conversations, weave them into their story. One story focuses on the Brennaman angle, the other takes it from the trade angle and some folks wanting him out.

Last week when I read the Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun Times on the Reds/Cubs game, they both had essentially had the same quotes, etc. But one started with the quotes at the beginning, worked in the others at the end. The other flipped them entirely.

It most likely was the same conversation. And I"m not surprised by Adam's "it doesn't bother me but it bothers my mom" - that's probably true.

Chip R
08-01-2007, 07:04 PM
Pawining his (justifiable) frustration off on his mom in both cases? Weird.

I'm reading the tea leaves here, but I think articles like this one point to ship that isn't run very tightly. Whether that be becuase of lack of communication, lack of direction, lack of purpose, lack of leadership or all of the above.

This may be Jr and Dunn being jokesters. It may also be signs that the origization has lots of behind-closed doors issues.


I think he's putting up a front. He says it doesn't bother him but I think it does. He's sitting by himself at a table idly playing with some cards right at the trade deadline. A lot of fans like trades because it's like the Love Boat. Something exciting and new is coming our way. Out with the old and in with the new. Change is good and the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. But I think these athletes aren't quite as fond of being traded as we think they are. Imagine working for P&G and then one day your boss tells you that you've been traded to Microsoft and you have to move to Washington and there's nothing you can do about it. P&G doesn't like you any more? What about all your friends you've made at P&G? You have to find a new school for the kids and the wife has to find a new job too. Not to mention the actual physical act of moving. You have to sell your old house and find a new one. Maybe Microsoft helps you out with that if you're lucky. You have a new boss and new co-workers who are wondering about you. Maybe the guy who was traded for you was loved by one and all. They may take that out on you even though you didn't do anything.

Remember when Arroyo was traded? He kept saying stuff like, "I miss BOS and I really liked it there." He clearly was not happy about being traded. It wasn't about whether he liked Cincinnati or not, it was about going somewhere new. What's more frustrating is the not knowing if you'll be traded or not. Fear of the unknown is very common. If you know one way or the other about something, you can deal with it. But not knowng is scary.

I don't know if the front office is responsible for the players feeling like they do. I think they are all frustrated with the constant losing. They fired Narron and they may feel somewhat responsibe for that. They were having a lot more fun last year when they were winning.

I don't think these guys want to be traded. Jr. has gone through it before and at least he has a say in the matter. This is really Dunn's first time around with trade rumors. He's probably feeling a bit insecure. He's said that he wants to stay here long term. It may be pap for the media and fans but he did sign that deal 2 years ago when he didn't have to. We sometimes forget these guys are himan and have feelings and problems lke the rest of us.

M2
08-01-2007, 07:12 PM
Now don't take this and turn it into me saying these guys are worthless ball players or horrible people or people undeserving of an organization or a fanbase appreciating them. By most all accounts both of these guys are extremely good human beings and great guys. The type we all might want to hang out with. But are they the kind of guys you would want to go to war with, are they gonna give you their all?

Best as I can tell, they do give it their all. A lot of people with Jr.'s leg problems would be walking with a cane. Dunn's got himself in the best condition of his life and plays consistently hard baseball -- sometimes confused, but always hard.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2007, 07:22 PM
Best as I can tell, they do give it their all. A lot of people with Jr.'s leg problems would be walking with a cane. Dunn's got himself in the best condition of his life and plays consistently hard baseball -- sometimes confused, but always hard.

Then why don't they call out the F.O. on the constant crap that's tossed out on the field? They have the power to make a difference, yet they choose to collect their checks and go home. Sure maybe they have said some things behind closed doors, but after that continues to happen you gotta start thinking outside the box. Start pressuring them in a new way, cause after 7 1/2 (might as well make it 8) seasons of foolish decisions not a word has come out of Jr.'s mouth.

M2
08-01-2007, 07:39 PM
Then why don't they call out the F.O. on the constant crap that's tossed out on the field? They have the power to make a difference, yet they choose to collect their checks and go home. Sure maybe they have said some things behind closed doors, but after that continues to happen you gotta start thinking outside the box. Start pressuring them in a new way, cause after 7 1/2 (might as well make it 8) seasons of foolish decisions not a word has come out of Jr.'s mouth.

Maybe Jr. figures the last thing a struggling kingdom needs is a civil war. Maybe he's figured the new regime (and there's always been some new regime since he arrived) deserves the time and space to get its act together. Maybe he thinks it's kind of bush to rag on the guys around him. Maybe it's just not way.

Anyway, I don't judge his effort or commitment by how loudly he complains in public. Plus, I've seen Jr. lead teams to big wins and to a division title.

Ltlabner
08-01-2007, 07:58 PM
I think he's putting up a front. He says it doesn't bother him but I think it does. He's sitting by himself at a table idly playing with some cards right at the trade deadline. A lot of fans like trades because it's like the Love Boat. Something exciting and new is coming our way. Out with the old and in with the new. Change is good and the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. But I think these athletes aren't quite as fond of being traded as we think they are. Imagine working for P&G and then one day your boss tells you that you've been traded to Microsoft and you have to move to Washington and there's nothing you can do about it. P&G doesn't like you any more? What about all your friends you've made at P&G? You have to find a new school for the kids and the wife has to find a new job too. Not to mention the actual physical act of moving. You have to sell your old house and find a new one. Maybe Microsoft helps you out with that if you're lucky. You have a new boss and new co-workers who are wondering about you. Maybe the guy who was traded for you was loved by one and all. They may take that out on you even though you didn't do anything.

Remember when Arroyo was traded? He kept saying stuff like, "I miss BOS and I really liked it there." He clearly was not happy about being traded. It wasn't about whether he liked Cincinnati or not, it was about going somewhere new. What's more frustrating is the not knowing if you'll be traded or not. Fear of the unknown is very common. If you know one way or the other about something, you can deal with it. But not knowng is scary.

I don't know if the front office is responsible for the players feeling like they do. I think they are all frustrated with the constant losing. They fired Narron and they may feel somewhat responsibe for that. They were having a lot more fun last year when they were winning.

I don't think these guys want to be traded. Jr. has gone through it before and at least he has a say in the matter. This is really Dunn's first time around with trade rumors. He's probably feeling a bit insecure. He's said that he wants to stay here long term. It may be pap for the media and fans but he did sign that deal 2 years ago when he didn't have to. We sometimes forget these guys are himan and have feelings and problems lke the rest of us.

Great post. Totally agree, it's easy to forget these guys are human.

RedFanAlways1966
08-01-2007, 08:19 PM
They can spoon after the game in the comfort of their suite.

What a joke. I know Dunn isn't walking the streets in search of a newspaper reporter to vent to, but c'mon. What's with all the drama? Dude makes $10mil+ with the guarantee of more next season. What difference does it make? For all we read about the easy-going Texan just counting the minutes until his next fishin' trip, what's with all the bluster? Maybe he should pay more attention to baseball to understand that baseball players are occasionally traded. It happens to the best and worst of them. It's not personal. Certainly no more personal than a dude dropping a fly ball or hitting a home run. Get over it.

Get over it? What... MLB players are humans? Yes, they are.

Who said it is personal? Please show me that quote. I did not read that. I read the article twice and never saw anything about it being personal. Perhaps as a human I am not able to read between the lines like those with above-human qualities and pick up these things.

Doesn't bother me when a person gets tired of hearing this rumor and that rumor... and tells the truth (the truth does not include making comments about taking it personal). But it bothers me when fans think players are machines that are not allowed to show emotions.

ochre
08-01-2007, 08:20 PM
Then why don't they call out the F.O. on the constant crap that's tossed out on the field? They have the power to make a difference, yet they choose to collect their checks and go home. Sure maybe they have said some things behind closed doors, but after that continues to happen you gotta start thinking outside the box. Start pressuring them in a new way, cause after 7 1/2 (might as well make it 8) seasons of foolish decisions not a word has come out of Jr.'s mouth.
How'd that work for Larkin?

redsfan4445
08-01-2007, 08:29 PM
this was on John Fays Blog!!!
Leather pants is a jerk!!

"Very interesting

Remember, that talk about Adam Dunn being traded to the Nationals? I've been told the deal was pretty far along when the Nationals pulled the plug on it.

No explanation was given why. But here’s one theory I heard: Jim Bowden never intended to do make a deal. He just strung the Reds along to waste their time. The Reds do still have a grievance pending against the Nationals over the Gary Majewksi episode."

Matt700wlw
08-01-2007, 08:30 PM
this was on John Fays Blog!!!
Leather pants is a jerk!!

"Very interesting

Remember, that talk about Adam Dunn being traded to the Nationals? I've been told the deal was pretty far along when the Nationals pulled the plug on it.

No explanation was given why. But here’s one theory I heard: Jim Bowden never intended to do make a deal. He just strung the Reds along to waste their time. The Reds do still have a grievance pending against the Nationals over the Gary Majewksi episode."


If true...I wouldn't deal with that unethical jerk off again.

Chip R
08-01-2007, 08:31 PM
How'd that work for Larkin?


Yep. You do something like that and the fans call you a whiner. Jr. was around when that happened. He knows better. And what power do they have anyway? Dunn's option may not be picked up and he's not nearly as popular as Larkin was. Jr.'s got one more year on his deal and he may be gone after that. Plus he's only popular when he's playing well.

redsfan30
08-01-2007, 08:35 PM
If that's true.......

westofyou
08-01-2007, 08:39 PM
How'd that work for Larkin?

Yes, I remember it well, beat around like a Piñata at a 4 year's old party.

Good idea this "vocal" leader stuff, play it in the presses.

The fans are behind you.

RedFanAlways1966
08-01-2007, 08:41 PM
this was on John Fays Blog!!!

"No explanation was given why. But here’s one theory I heard: Jim Bowden never intended to do make a deal. He just strung the Reds along to waste their time."

Here is another theory: John Fay likes to print crap to start trouble and get people fired up. John Fay heard this news from a very unreliable source or made it up.

Just another theory!

CrackerJack
08-01-2007, 08:56 PM
Ehhh, the sympathy's just not there for Adam and his million dollar mom. Why talk to a media person about this? Very Kearns-esque.

OldXOhio
08-01-2007, 08:59 PM
Here is another theory: John Fay likes to print crap to start trouble and get people fired up. John Fay heard this news from a very unreliable source or made it up.

Just another theory!

My sentiments exactly. I guess Fay got tired of blogging about his futile attempts to gather anything meaningful so he figured he'd take a different route.

RFS62
08-01-2007, 09:22 PM
"I'm just employee number 44," he said, referring to his uniform number. "All this bothers my mom more than me. She's so sick and tired of it.".
Anyone else think it was weird that Dunn said almost the exact same thing that DDN reported vis Marty B?



"It bothers my mom more than me," Dunn said. "My family hates the Brennamans (broadcasters Marty and Thom) and Jeff Brantley. If George Grande and Chris Welsh aren't doing the television games, they won't watch. That's sad."



Well, it's become obvious to me that Mr. Dunn needs to enlist the services of the esteemed law firm of Puffy, Puffy, Puffy, and Jobu, Esq. to sue the pants of the Reds for creating a hostile work environment.

The Brennamans are employees of the Cincinnati Reds, and what other company in America would allow their public relations spokespeople to lambast one of their highest paid employees the way those two do, and on a national stage, nonetheless.

It wouldn't be hard to prove that public opinion in the Cincinnati area is largely shaped by Marty and Thom, and that their ongoing and relentless negative commentary is keeping Dunn from enjoying the benefits of numerous endorsement deals. Why, Dr. Shoals and New Balance walking shoes come to mind immediately as potential sponsors if not for the negative connotation associated with walking attributed to the Big Donkey by the Reds mouthpieces.

Yep, I see big bucks in the future. And vindication for the pain and suffering endured by the Dunnster and his distraught family.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2007, 09:23 PM
Here is another theory: John Fay likes to print crap to start trouble and get people fired up. John Fay heard this news from a very unreliable source or made it up.

Just another theory!

If there's any truth to it, Bowden is a bigger snake and Krivsky is a bigger idiot than I previously thought.

I hope it's not true.

vaticanplum
08-01-2007, 09:34 PM
We (guys like me) just cannot stand mediocrity at best and the Reds are just that and more. I always try to remain optimistic but a little of my fiery nature spills out from time to time. And that's when my venom goes towards a player at the top or an organization head. Leadership starts at the top, top of the organization for putting a poor product on the field, and top of the leadership on the field for playing under their ability constantly.

Mario-Rijo, I'm honestly confused here. You begin this paragraph by saying that you "just cannot stand" mediocrity and then proceed below to pound two of the best players -- and THE two strongest offensive producers -- on the team. If your problem truly is mediocrity, I promise you've got plenty to choose from on this team, but Dunn and Griffey ain't it. I am, of course, talking about the baseball skillz here, not student-council readiness or table manners. Unless they cross some serious line of basic human decency (which no one on the current Reds team has come close to doing), baseball skills(z) are the only metric by which I judge the players on my favorite teams. Dunn and Griffey might be mediocre chefs or parakeet owners and perhaps could be blamed for producing a poor meal or a dead pet bird. But they're both unquestionably excellent baseball players and cannot be blamed for their poor team.


It's certainly not all Dunn and Griffey's fault but they are the leaders of this team on the field whether they like it or not. Guys follow them and for them to have such a non-chalant attitude all these yrs has done nothing but drove us further into the abyss.

Dunn, Griffey and a very small handful of other guys are, on the contrary, pretty much the only thing that has prevented this team from being driven as far into the abyss as Kansas City or Baltimore. It's actually not at all dunn or Griffey's fault that this team has been so bad during their tenure here. I'd say that blame rests pretty much squarely with the people who have spent scads of money on damaged goods, who have not managed to pull their farm system out of the bottom of the barrel, who have treated every problem with complacency and resignedness rather than finding a solution, and who have time and again rested on their hands when good choices have presented themselves while jumping on bad ones. Dunn and Griffey, by contrast, have done exactly what they've been paid to do all along: play baseball as well as they can at any given time. yes, Griffey gets hurt, and yes, Dunn has his slumps, but I've never seen evidence that those things are anything but happenstance and they don't fight to get past them.

As far as I know, neither player has a leadership clause in his contract. I'm honestly confused, again, by the mentality that makes the jump from "good" or "rich" to "leader". It's really nice when those things happen to coincide. But it's just that: coincidence. and it's rarer than people realize. These are just two entirely separate things that have more to do with nature than anything else. Scott Hatteberg appears to be a natural leader; I don't expect for him to suddenly become a phenomenal ballplayer as a result. Why should the converse be true? Who appointed Dunn and Griffey leaders? This team has no captain last time I checked. There are many people with whom I work who are very good at what they do and make a ton of money and are pretty much the last people I'd look to for leadership in anything, ever, and that's perfectly fine. Furthermore, there's a difference between being a "non-leader" and being "nonchalant". I've zero evidence that either of these guys is nonchalant, and I actually find it impossible to believe that they are. Sometimes I think people forget just how hard it is to be a major league baseball player, let alone a player of that caliber. You simply cannot get to the level these two are while being nonchalant about your work. Period.

Perhaps -- I have no idea, but it's possible -- they are a little disheartened by the state of the team as a whole and this causes them a lack of gumption in the cheerleading department. Can you blame them? I'd be distrustful of any Reds follower who felt otherwise with the present state of the team. Perhaps if the front office had spent this century doing its respective job as well as Dunn and Griffey have been doing theirs, they'd have a little more to be cheerful about. But in spite of that -- in spite of that -- their baseball playing is still pretty great, better than most other guys' on most other teams. They still do what they're supposed to as far as I'm concerned. And if the other players only followed that example...in fact, I believe that the other players DO follow that example, of playing to more or less the best they can at any given time. Which brings us back to the crux of the REAL problem at hand: the best of this team's ability as a whole is simply not very good. The front office has not put together a talented enough group to win, and the manager charged with inspiring that group to pull together as a whole has largely not been able to do it. THAT is the only person who is paid to lead. And his coaches are the ones paid to teach.


Then why don't they call out the F.O. on the constant crap that's tossed out on the field? They have the power to make a difference, yet they choose to collect their checks and go home. Sure maybe they have said some things behind closed doors, but after that continues to happen you gotta start thinking outside the box. Start pressuring them in a new way, cause after 7 1/2 (might as well make it 8) seasons of foolish decisions not a word has come out of Jr.'s mouth.

They have the power to make a difference according to what? The number of zeros on their checks? The numbers that may well land them in the record books despite their "mediocrity"? That seems a bit contradictory to me. Again, this "power", like their apparent leadership responsibility, is something that I don't really see as part of their job description. Quite the contrary, having no real idea of the atmosphere of the front office, I really question how a reaction like that would go over there. And that doesn't even begin to examine the circus that would be when it got out in the press. How well would it go over, do you think, if word got out that Griffey was criticizing the front office for not building a better team around him? How much do you think his teammates would look to Dunn as a "leader" if he basically gave flat-out word that the players around him suck? They'd be run out of town faster than a cracked-out cheetah -- and rightfully so, in my opinion. And just whose responsibility is it to make sure the front office is running well? It is the front office's. The owners'. Maybe there's a board too, I dunno. But it certainly isn't the players'. The players' responsibility is to play baseball well. Dunn and Griffey have done a fair job of that thus far, I'd say.

It's a natural human inclination, I think, to expect more of the people who give you the most. If one of your brothers sends you a birthday card every year and the other has never seen the inside of a Hallmark store in his life, you're only going to be upset with one of them when you don't get a card one year. And that's fine, to a degree: performance breeds higher expectations; that's how we progress. But in situations like this, when there is a very clear delineation of responsibilities involved and a pretty big disparity between the nature of jobs, I think expectations need to be confined to the people to whom they're charged. If the dishwasher in the restaurant decides to help out the waiter, that is awfully swell of him to go outside of his own call of duty. But if he doesn't, it's not going to make me think any less of his ability to wash dishes. And frankly, if he stops to help the waiter, I'm going to worry about the dishes piling up in the meantime.

KronoRed
08-01-2007, 09:38 PM
I don't buy that from Fay, as much as I can see Bowden doing that I don't think his bosses would be very happy with it.

MWM
08-01-2007, 09:43 PM
vp, brilliant!

RFS62
08-01-2007, 09:46 PM
Awesome post, Vaticanplum

MWM
08-01-2007, 09:58 PM
BTW, Johan Santana did what some are calling for Dunn and/or Griffey to do - call out the FO. It's not playing too well for him here in the Twin Cities today.

REDREAD
08-01-2007, 10:29 PM
I am really beginning to wonder if Dunn is willing to sign with the Reds long-term.

I was kind of surprised he signed the most recent extension, although I guess it really only bought out one year of free agency.

He's made numerous comments over the years that seem to indicate that he's fed up with being here.

MartyFan
08-01-2007, 10:36 PM
They can spoon after the game in the comfort of their suite.

What a joke. I know Dunn isn't walking the streets in search of a newspaper reporter to vent to, but c'mon. What's with all the drama? Dude makes $10mil+ with the guarantee of more next season. What difference does it make? For all we read about the easy-going Texan just counting the minutes until his next fishin' trip, what's with all the bluster? Maybe he should pay more attention to baseball to understand that baseball players are occasionally traded. It happens to the best and worst of them. It's not personal. Certainly no more personal than a dude dropping a fly ball or hitting a home run. Get over it.

My thoughts exactly... :clap:

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Dunn or any other multi-millionaire, regardless of how talented they are on the diamond.

I have a hard time believing that EVERYONE in the Reds last three FO have been unable to communicate with the players...trying to think of who else outside of Kearns, Junior and Dunn that have said anything remotely like "Im just employee # --"

I bet they thought both Junior and Dunn were gone...deals probably fell through and if they fell through what can you do?

Stop being such a puss, work on fielding a little bit...try to reduce your K's and when you can walk...walk.

REDREAD
08-01-2007, 10:40 PM
Then why don't they call out the F.O. on the constant crap that's tossed out on the field? They have the power to make a difference, yet they choose to collect their checks and go home. Sure maybe they have said some things behind closed doors, but after that continues to happen you gotta start thinking outside the box. Start pressuring them in a new way, cause after 7 1/2 (might as well make it 8) seasons of foolish decisions not a word has come out of Jr.'s mouth.

I think Jr is wise to keep his mouth shut. Look at what happened when Larkin spoke up against the FO, and he was justified.

Jr doesn't want to see his name in the headlines every day, he doesn't want the drama anymore. He does his job and goes home, just like the rest of us. And he does give plenty of effort.
If Jr didn't care, he could've easily justified spending a lot more time on the DL and just collected his paychecks.

Basically, nothing Jr or Dunn says will change the course of the front office. That's what Larkin learned. It only makes your employer your enemy. It's just not worth it.

REDREAD
08-01-2007, 10:45 PM
this was on John Fays Blog!!!
Leather pants is a jerk!!

"Very interesting

Remember, that talk about Adam Dunn being traded to the Nationals? I've been told the deal was pretty far along when the Nationals pulled the plug on it.

No explanation was given why. But here’s one theory I heard: Jim Bowden never intended to do make a deal. He just strung the Reds along to waste their time. The Reds do still have a grievance pending against the Nationals over the Gary Majewksi episode."


I find that very hard to believe. Nothing would give Bowden more pleasure than to pluck Dunn (or another good player) away from the Reds again. Say what you want about the guy, but he's all about trying to win.

My guess is that the Nationals made a best offer and gave the Reds a deadline, and then pulled the plug (or something like that).

Bowden has been trying to get Kearns and Dunn ever since he got the GM job in Washington. He's not doing it to waste the Reds time.. that really makes no sense at all, especially when you consider that Wayne had all the time in the world to engineer trades, since the Reds fell out of the race very quickly this year.

CTA513
08-01-2007, 10:47 PM
Dunn will learn he should just not say anything, because people will complain either way.

WVRedsFan
08-01-2007, 11:17 PM
So how much money do you have to mkae before you're not allowed to feel any emotions or feel any frustration. Is it $100k, $1MM, $5MM? What's the cutoff? Just curious, because while I don't make as much as Dunn, I do get frustrated some times. Am I supposed to sit tight and not say anything because I'm paid a salary?

Great post and so true.

You and VP said it all (although she used more words than you :-))

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2007, 11:29 PM
Mario-Rijo, I'm honestly confused here. You begin this paragraph by saying that you "just cannot stand" mediocrity and then proceed below to pound two of the best players -- and THE two strongest offensive producers -- on the team. If your problem truly is mediocrity, I promise you've got plenty to choose from on this team, but Dunn and Griffey ain't it. I am, of course, talking about the baseball skillz here, not student-council readiness or table manners. Unless they cross some serious line of basic human decency (which no one on the current Reds team has come close to doing), baseball skills(z) are the only metric by which I judge the players on my favorite teams. Dunn and Griffey might be mediocre chefs or parakeet owners and perhaps could be blamed for producing a poor meal or a dead pet bird. But they're both unquestionably excellent baseball players and cannot be blamed for their poor team.



Dunn, Griffey and a very small handful of other guys are, on the contrary, pretty much the only thing that has prevented this team from being driven as far into the abyss as Kansas City or Baltimore. It's actually not at all dunn or Griffey's fault that this team has been so bad during their tenure here. I'd say that blame rests pretty much squarely with the people who have spent scads of money on damaged goods, who have not managed to pull their farm system out of the bottom of the barrel, who have treated every problem with complacency and resignedness rather than finding a solution, and who have time and again rested on their hands when good choices have presented themselves while jumping on bad ones. Dunn and Griffey, by contrast, have done exactly what they've been paid to do all along: play baseball as well as they can at any given time. yes, Griffey gets hurt, and yes, Dunn has his slumps, but I've never seen evidence that those things are anything but happenstance and they don't fight to get past them.

As far as I know, neither player has a leadership clause in his contract. I'm honestly confused, again, by the mentality that makes the jump from "good" or "rich" to "leader". It's really nice when those things happen to coincide. But it's just that: coincidence. and it's rarer than people realize. These are just two entirely separate things that have more to do with nature than anything else. Scott Hatteberg appears to be a natural leader; I don't expect for him to suddenly become a phenomenal ballplayer as a result. Why should the converse be true? Who appointed Dunn and Griffey leaders? This team has no captain last time I checked. There are many people with whom I work who are very good at what they do and make a ton of money and are pretty much the last people I'd look to for leadership in anything, ever, and that's perfectly fine. Furthermore, there's a difference between being a "non-leader" and being "nonchalant". I've zero evidence that either of these guys is nonchalant, and I actually find it impossible to believe that they are. Sometimes I think people forget just how hard it is to be a major league baseball player, let alone a player of that caliber. You simply cannot get to the level these two are while being nonchalant about your work. Period.

Perhaps -- I have no idea, but it's possible -- they are a little disheartened by the state of the team as a whole and this causes them a lack of gumption in the cheerleading department. Can you blame them? I'd be distrustful of any Reds follower who felt otherwise with the present state of the team. Perhaps if the front office had spent this century doing its respective job as well as Dunn and Griffey have been doing theirs, they'd have a little more to be cheerful about. But in spite of that -- in spite of that -- their baseball playing is still pretty great, better than most other guys' on most other teams. They still do what they're supposed to as far as I'm concerned. And if the other players only followed that example...in fact, I believe that the other players DO follow that example, of playing to more or less the best they can at any given time. Which brings us back to the crux of the REAL problem at hand: the best of this team's ability as a whole is simply not very good. The front office has not put together a talented enough group to win, and the manager charged with inspiring that group to pull together as a whole has largely not been able to do it. THAT is the only person who is paid to lead. And his coaches are the ones paid to teach.



They have the power to make a difference according to what? The number of zeros on their checks? The numbers that may well land them in the record books despite their "mediocrity"? That seems a bit contradictory to me. Again, this "power", like their apparent leadership responsibility, is something that I don't really see as part of their job description. Quite the contrary, having no real idea of the atmosphere of the front office, I really question how a reaction like that would go over there. And that doesn't even begin to examine the circus that would be when it got out in the press. How well would it go over, do you think, if word got out that Griffey was criticizing the front office for not building a better team around him? How much do you think his teammates would look to Dunn as a "leader" if he basically gave flat-out word that the players around him suck? They'd be run out of town faster than a cracked-out cheetah -- and rightfully so, in my opinion. And just whose responsibility is it to make sure the front office is running well? It is the front office's. The owners'. Maybe there's a board too, I dunno. But it certainly isn't the players'. The players' responsibility is to play baseball well. Dunn and Griffey have done a fair job of that thus far, I'd say.

It's a natural human inclination, I think, to expect more of the people who give you the most. If one of your brothers sends you a birthday card every year and the other has never seen the inside of a Hallmark store in his life, you're only going to be upset with one of them when you don't get a card one year. And that's fine, to a degree: performance breeds higher expectations; that's how we progress. But in situations like this, when there is a very clear delineation of responsibilities involved and a pretty big disparity between the nature of jobs, I think expectations need to be confined to the people to whom they're charged. If the dishwasher in the restaurant decides to help out the waiter, that is awfully swell of him to go outside of his own call of duty. But if he doesn't, it's not going to make me think any less of his ability to wash dishes. And frankly, if he stops to help the waiter, I'm going to worry about the dishes piling up in the meantime.

VP good points!

And before I go on let me re-direct my argument at Griffey and not so much Dunn because in retrospect (and in my last post I leaned this way) Dunn IMO isn't quite like this but he does from time to time show some subtle signs of it. As a matter of fact alot of times he tries to do the right thing (like a bunt he once layed down). He took a lot of crap for bunting but if it had been a game winner and it worked, it would have been praised forever. Myself included, of course I am praising him for trying it because it showed he wanted to win.

The mediocrity I was talking about was tied to the team concept. Sure Griffey's production has been very good when he could do it. But I just began to look at things from a different perspective at some point, call it not blindly following the Griffey worship. I don't mean that as a shot at anyone here, but to places like ESPN who highlight how great a sports star is and how perfect a given guy is. I just refused to buy in until I was able to watch them night in and night out and draw my own conclusions.

The only analogy I can think of is MJ and how he would often shoot himself (the HR), and when the defense played him to make someone else beat them he would kick it out to Paxson or Kerr or even pass it inside to a Bill Wennington or Horace Grant. I have never seen Griffey defer to his teammates by taking advantage of what the defense/pitching gives him. If the game is in the balance and MJ had Griffey's baseball talent his mindset would be to learn how to bunt the ball well enough that if he needed to he could do it when the defense was giving it to him. Griffey would swing the bat and say I'm not bunting, I'm a HR hitter. He'd rather lose pretty than win ugly.

And people on his team will follow the guy because as he says he leads by example. His example has been followed for far to long IMO.

Again this is strictly his gameplay, not his off the field person that I am aware of. He is an outstanding guy but his game is of the selfish variety IMO.

SteelSD
08-01-2007, 11:44 PM
Dunn will learn he should just not say anything, because people will complain either way.

To some, yes. Some have always considered Dunn's silence and affable nature as demonstrative of a lack of fire or emotion. Now that he's shown some fire and emotion, many of those folks will complain that he's a whiner.

To me? I think Dunn's latest comments are exactly what I wanted to see from Dunn. Call it a firm indication of a loss of naivite' if you will, but at some point, I wanted to see Dunn tell someone to basically shut the heck up. I've always held that if Dunn had an issue it was that he was too willing to follow without question regardless of who the leader and without consideration to whether the advice he was given would help or harm him.

So bravo to Dunn for basically telling a broadcasting personality who's recently made a living off needlessly bashing Dunn as well as other young, talented Reds to take a flying expletive deleted. And bravo to Reds leadership for apparently noticing (great email campaign, team Redszone!).

Also, kudos to Dunn for walking into his manager's office to express dissatisfaction with being pulled from games in the 7th Inning. And good job, Dunn, noting that you feel like nothing but a number rather than a name at this point. It's been the Cincinnati Reds who've allowed that to happen.

mlb.tv is a fantastic resource. Let's me watch a ton of games and I haven't, to this day, seen an team's broadcaster bash a good young player like Dunn so incessantly. Heck, I haven't seen another team's announcer bash a BAD young player like that. Nor have I seen such a key player given such faint praise when doing well- said praise offered only begrudgingly or as nothing more than a backhanded slap at a game Marty Brennaman doesn't like but doesn't care to understand.

Especially on a bad team, the good young players represent a potentially brighter future. That translates to hope. Hope represents additional dollars in gate receipts and merchandise sales. I can't even begin to count how much money has probably already been lost because the team has allowed Marty Brennaman to run his mouth about some of their most valuable assets. If even most of what Brennaman said were true, that'd be one thing. But that's just not the case.

I have some hope for Thom Brennaman, but not while his father stays on in order to play his narcisisstic legacy-perpetuation game.

But the last couple of media comments for Dunn? Good for him. GOOD for him.

(BTW, great posts vp and RFS. Well done!)

George Anderson
08-01-2007, 11:52 PM
But here’s one theory I heard: Jim Bowden never intended to do make a deal. He just strung the Reds along to waste their time."

Well if thats the case then Bowden wasted his time by stringing along the Reds.

He cant be that stupid, can he?? :confused:

SteelSD
08-01-2007, 11:59 PM
If the game is in the balance and MJ had Griffey's baseball talent his mindset would be to learn how to bunt the ball well enough that if he needed to he could do it when the defense was giving it to him....

...He is an outstanding guy but his game is of the selfish variety IMO.

Ken Griffey Jr. is selfish because he won't learn how to be a good bunter? Really?

Haven't you considered that the very reason the "shift" is put on is that the opposing team considers a potential bunt single a better alternative to whatever else Griffey might do? Even if Griffey got good at it, all that would do is stifle his offensive game. It's not at all "selfish" for a player to figure out that taking a bunt single while giving up the possibility for much much more is a bad tradeoff- especially when the defense is telling him they believe the exact same thing.

That's not selfish. That's smart.

KoryMac5
08-02-2007, 12:20 AM
VP good points!

And before I go on let me re-direct my argument at Griffey and not so much Dunn because in retrospect (and in my last post I leaned this way) Dunn IMO isn't quite like this but he does from time to time show some subtle signs of it. As a matter of fact alot of times he tries to do the right thing (like a bunt he once layed down). He took a lot of crap for bunting but if it had been a game winner and it worked, it would have been praised forever. Myself included, of course I am praising him for trying it because it showed he wanted to win.

The mediocrity I was talking about was tied to the team concept. Sure Griffey's production has been very good when he could do it. But I just began to look at things from a different perspective at some point, call it not blindly following the Griffey worship. I don't mean that as a shot at anyone here, but to places like ESPN who highlight how great a sports star is and how perfect a given guy is. I just refused to buy in until I was able to watch them night in and night out and draw my own conclusions.

The only analogy I can think of is MJ and how he would often shoot himself (the HR), and when the defense played him to make someone else beat them he would kick it out to Paxson or Kerr or even pass it inside to a Bill Wennington or Horace Grant. I have never seen Griffey defer to his teammates by taking advantage of what the defense/pitching gives him. If the game is in the balance and MJ had Griffey's baseball talent his mindset would be to learn how to bunt the ball well enough that if he needed to he could do it when the defense was giving it to him. Griffey would swing the bat and say I'm not bunting, I'm a HR hitter. He'd rather lose pretty than win ugly.

And people on his team will follow the guy because as he says he leads by example. His example has been followed for far to long IMO.

Again this is strictly his gameplay, not his off the field person that I am aware of. He is an outstanding guy but his game is of the selfish variety IMO.

This analogy makes no sense you can't compare basketball and baseball together. Basketball is by far more of a team sport than baseball is (unless you play with Kobe). Baseball teams are composed of individuals trying to make individual plays, that's why these milestones (755hr's, 300 wins) mean so much to us fans. Basketball is much more of a team concept, especially on the offensive and defensive sides where you have set plays and philosiphies.

I have seen JR grow over the last couple of years and instead of being stubborn and hitting into the shift he has been going the other way the last couple of years to the point where only a few teams shift on him now. He has been very good for Hamilton's adjustment to centerfield, I read a recent article in which Hamilton clearly states that Griffey has been very helpful in his adjustments on balls that are hit to center. JR does this with other palyers as well.

Too many people want JR to be that fired up Greg Vaughn in the clubhouse. He's not, never was in Seattle and never will be here. In all honesty nobody seems to have that fire at all on this team. To me that lack of fire and desire starts with a FO that has failed to put a winner on the field and has bred discontent in the clubhouse. It reminds me of watching the movie the Natural and seeing just how bad those guys were playing before Hobbs got there. Hobbs was a quiet guy but a leader none the less, maybe we need a lil of that Roy Hobbs magic back in Redsland. Hopefully his wrist gets better soon.

coachw513
08-02-2007, 01:14 AM
If Dunn or Griffey play poorly, I will be disappointed in them...

But if Encarnacion can't get a bunt down, Freel gets picked off, Ross strikes out or Coffey gives up a bomb, I will not be disappointed in Dunn or Griffey...

If Arroyo, Harang or Bailey get abused by the manager, I'll be disappointed in the manager, I won't be disappointed by Dunn or Griffey...

If the personnel of the team isn't equipped to compete, I'll be disappointed in the GM, but not disappointed in Dunn and Griffey...

I don't expect Dunn and Griffey to make front office or game managment decisions...I just want them to play well, something they've done extremely well this year (and excepting poor luck with griffey injuries) and for many years previous...do I want them to do better???...often, but this thread simply is a lashing out at convenient targets when instead we are nearly apoplectic over being pathetic...IMHO...

Eric_Davis
08-02-2007, 01:34 AM
Speaking of #44, I'm watching the A's/Mariners game and there's a player wearing #44 for the A's. I can't believe they haven't retired Reggie Jackson's number by now. He was drafted by the A's and played for them when they were in Kansas City, and helped them get to the World Series in '72, then help them Win it in '73 and '74.

I was really shocked to see that number not retired by the A's.

gonelong
08-02-2007, 01:51 AM
"I'm just employee number 44," he said, referring to his uniform number.
..
"I'm just employee number 3," Griffey said.



There is your organizational problem in a nutshell. Two of the Reds main employees feel like a number.

No communication. No plan. No direction. No future. No hope.

I feel like a number
I'm not a number
- Bob Seger

GL

Ron Madden
08-02-2007, 03:19 AM
You should have drawn that conclusion awhile ago, he doesn't like it here and neither does Jr. Can't say I blame them, of course guys like me are the reason they are so fed up.

We (guys like me) just cannot stand mediocrity at best and the Reds are just that and more. I always try to remain optimistic but a little of my fiery nature spills out from time to time. And that's when my venom goes towards a player at the top or an organization head. Leadership starts at the top, top of the organization for putting a poor product on the field, and top of the leadership on the field for playing under their ability constantly.

It's certainly not all Dunn and Griffey's fault but they are the leaders of this team on the field whether they like it or not. Guys follow them and for them to have such a non-chalant attitude all these yrs has done nothing but drove us further into the abyss.

Sure perhaps they "lead by example" but when's the last time either of these 2 actually displayed an example that was worth following on a consistent basis. When's the last time you heard Griffey jump somebody's backside for not hustling, it's a little hard to yell at someone else for something you don't do yourself. I guess he led by example there. I guess maybe I am being too hard on Dunn, he just been led astray somewhat by someone leading by example.

No neither of them has said it publicly that they want out but you can rest assured it's constantly on their minds.

Now don't take this and turn it into me saying these guys are worthless ball players or horrible people or people undeserving of an organization or a fanbase appreciating them. By most all accounts both of these guys are extremely good human beings and great guys. The type we all might want to hang out with. But are they the kind of guys you would want to go to war with, are they gonna give you their all?

I dunno but my gut says no, maybe employee #44 if he wasn't being influenced by employee #3.

Maybe if "Guys Like Us" had more talent and less of that mediocre Fiery nature... maybe if we knew just how hard it is to make the Major Leagues and just how damned hard it is to stay there. Maybe we could understand guys like Griffey and Dunn just a lil' bit better.

Nah, I guess they will never have as much fire or care as much as we Fans do.

Ron Madden
08-02-2007, 03:50 AM
Speaking of #44, I'm watching the A's/Mariners game and there's a player wearing #44 for the A's. I can't believe they haven't retired Reggie Jackson's number by now. He was drafted by the A's and played for them when they were in Kansas City, and helped them get to the World Series in '72, then help them Win it in '73 and '74.

I was really shocked to see that number not retired by the A's.

Reggie never wore #44 in Oakland, he wore #9.

Jpup
08-02-2007, 03:55 AM
Reggie never wore #44 in Oakland, he wore #9.

and his number is retired.

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/oak/history/retired_numbers.jsp

• Number retired in 2004. Played for A's from 1968-75, 1987.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 08:34 AM
A little too much drama for my taste. I like Dunn, but getting traded is part of baseball. Lots of great players have been traded before. I'm sure his mom is quite happy with the $10+M her little boy makes.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 08:36 AM
There is your organizational problem in a nutshell. Two of the Reds main employees feel like a number.

No communication. No plan. No direction. No future. No hope.

I feel like a number
I'm not a number
- Bob Seger

GL

Reggie said a similar thing with the Yankees. I'm sure he wasn't the first. They certainly like the numbers on their contract.

GAC
08-02-2007, 08:51 AM
I wonder if Dunn was told he was going to be traded :dunno:

Since when are FO's obligated to do so?

Strikes Out Looking
08-02-2007, 09:47 AM
I think there is enough frustration to go around and this thread is exhibit 1:

The players--Griffey and Dunn--they are frustrated because the team is backsliding and they are both having pretty good years.

The fans--Frustrated with a last place team--the two highest paid players on the team feel like they are no different than the guy who sweeps out the stadium.

The FO--They've tried to put together a good team, but after years of Leatherpants changing strategies every few months (develop the farm system, win now, trade for prospects, win now etc...) and DanO/Carl Linder (overpay for Larkin/Milton), the FO needs to put together a team that can be somewhat competive now and in the future. Not an easy thing to do.

The media and radio team--It's hard to be upbeat on a last place team, especially when you've been around some of the greatest teams in baseball and seen how it was done. Not an excuse for Marty, but looking through his eyes, it's easy to see why he is frustrated.

I don't know what the answers are. I do believe that if BobCast had fired Jerry Narron in Feb. of 2006 and replaced him with Lou Pinella the Reds and Cubs may be in opposite places in the standings today, but that is only my opinion and I guess I can't go back in a time machine to see if I'm right. I guess as a fan the only thing to do is to be patient and hope it plays out well, even if it hasn't for the last six years.

OldXOhio
08-02-2007, 10:00 AM
Great post and so true.

You and VP said it all (although she used more words than you :-))

No doubt that sometimes we have to remind ourselves that no matter how much money they make, these guys are human beings too. That said, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of the FO telling Dunn he's being dealt one day only to recant that the next. And last I checked, Adam Dunn seems to understand the business side of things when it comes to negotiating his contract with the Reds. The fact that the Reds FO is treating it that way from their standpoint is simply a reality of being a prof athlete. I would have thought AD understood that by now.

RANDY IN INDY
08-02-2007, 10:02 AM
No doubt that sometimes we have to remind ourselves that no matter how much money they make, these guys are human beings too. That said, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of the FO telling Dunn he's being dealt one day only to recant that the next. And last I checked, Adam Dunn seems to understand the business side of things when it comes to negotiating his contract with the Reds. The fact that the Reds FO is treating it that way from their standpoint is simply a reality of being a prof athlete. I would have thought AD understood that by now.

Exactly.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 10:05 AM
The fact that the Reds FO is treating it that way from their standpoint is simply a reality of being a prof athlete. I would have thought AD understood that by now.

Very true.

Additionally, the Reds front office has always stood by Jr. through all of his injury issues and rehab. They've always dealt with him on the level.

MartyFan
08-02-2007, 10:18 AM
Since when are FO's obligated to do so?

Not obligated but if that team wanted to know if they had a chance to sign him longterm they may have discussed such a thing...I thought the same thing about Junior going back to Seattle based on some of the things by people ITK on the board.

I don't think Dunn is too expensive to keep on this team next year or the year after or the year after...I just don't think he is the guy you build your team around.

Dunn is a great "glue" guy...sort of like Tony Perez...or a guy who is a nice addition to an already successful team...but he is not the guy you build around...Cincinnati does need a QB for this team and the same reason he gave up being a QB at Texas is the same reason why he is not that guy for the Reds...he doesn't want it because the QB or Leader of a team is the emotional and mental spark for a team.

Junior is not that guy either.

The best candidate the Reds have for that player is Brandon Phillips...potentially Josh Hamilton (once he is healthy and on the field a little more)

I don't think that Junior or Dunn have given up...they are GREAT players but they play "their game"...but they are not what you build a team around...they are what you add too a team.

Employee #44, I agree.

Chip R
08-02-2007, 10:23 AM
Cincinnati does need a QB for this team and the same reason he gave up being a QB at Texas is the same reason why he is not that guy for the Reds...he doesn't want it because the QB or Leader of a team is the emotional and mental spark for a team.



He was moved from QB to tight end because the Longhorns had a couple of guys ahead of him by the names of Simms and Applewhite. When they moved him is when he turned to baseball full time. So he actually wanted to be the QB.

westofyou
08-02-2007, 10:25 AM
He was moved from QB to tight end because the Longhorns had a couple of guys ahead of him by the names of Simms and Applewhite. When they moved him is when he turned to baseball full time. So he actually wanted to be the QB.


Hush... you're just popping more theories with that pin of logic.

Big Klu
08-02-2007, 10:28 AM
Reggie never wore #44 in Oakland, he wore #9.


and his number is retired.

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/oak/history/retired_numbers.jsp

• Number retired in 2004. Played for A's from 1968-75, 1987.

I think Reggie wore #44 for the A's when he came back for his final season in 1987. But they chose the right number to retire in his honor--he wore #9 during his great years in Oakland.


I find it interesting that the A's choose not to honor any of the players from their distant past. Players like Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, and Jimmie Foxx for the Philadelphia A's deserve some recognition. And what about legendary owner/manager Connie Mack, who--among other things--is the originator of the club's White Elephant mascot, which they still use today?

MWM
08-02-2007, 10:40 AM
I think some folks are missing the point a little. I think his comments were more frustration from the media's constant asking him about it morso that the FO.

BRM
08-02-2007, 10:41 AM
I think some folks are missing the point a little. I think's comments were more frustration from the media's constant asking him about it morso that the FO.

That's the way I took it. This wasn't Adam running up to the media drones and running his mouth or whining. It was Adam answering a question he's probably been asked nearly every day for a couple of weeks.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 11:22 AM
That's the way I took it. This wasn't Adam running up to the media drones and running his mouth or whining. It was Adam answering a question he's probably been asked nearly every day for a couple of weeks.

Good thing he plays in a city with only 3 beat writers.

westofyou
08-02-2007, 11:34 AM
I find it interesting that the A's choose not to honor any of the players from their distant past. Players like Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, and Jimmie Foxx for the Philadelphia A's deserve some recognition. And what about legendary owner/manager Connie Mack, who--among other things--is the originator of the club's White Elephant mascot, which they still use today?

IIRC there are a few notes hanging around the stadium that pays tribute to the WS winners from that era.

I also think it's funny how the White Elephant stigma originated from the franchise that sits across the Bay, and yet they still use it over 100 years later.

KoryMac5
08-02-2007, 11:56 AM
I think there is enough frustration to go around and this thread is exhibit 1:

The players--Griffey and Dunn--they are frustrated because the team is backsliding and they are both having pretty good years.

The fans--Frustrated with a last place team--the two highest paid players on the team feel like they are no different than the guy who sweeps out the stadium.

The FO--They've tried to put together a good team, but after years of Leatherpants changing strategies every few months (develop the farm system, win now, trade for prospects, win now etc...) and DanO/Carl Linder (overpay for Larkin/Milton), the FO needs to put together a team that can be somewhat competive now and in the future. Not an easy thing to do.

The media and radio team--It's hard to be upbeat on a last place team, especially when you've been around some of the greatest teams in baseball and seen how it was done. Not an excuse for Marty, but looking through his eyes, it's easy to see why he is frustrated.

I don't know what the answers are. I do believe that if BobCast had fired Jerry Narron in Feb. of 2006 and replaced him with Lou Pinella the Reds and Cubs may be in opposite places in the standings today, but that is only my opinion and I guess I can't go back in a time machine to see if I'm right. I guess as a fan the only thing to do is to be patient and hope it plays out well, even if it hasn't for the last six years.

I think Sweet Lou would be sitting in Hamilton County jail right now if he had been named manager of the Reds. If looks could kill half of the Cubs bullpen would be dead right now.

gonelong
08-02-2007, 11:56 AM
Reggie said a similar thing with the Yankees. I'm sure he wasn't the first. They certainly like the numbers on their contract.

In my experience almost eveyone likes to feel like they have a part in building something worthwhile. Give them the plan of attack and let them know where they fit into that plan of attack, why you see it as valuable, and how much you are counting on them. If I give my staff ownship in the things we build I invariably get top notch work out of everyone involved.

If you don't tell people the plan, their part in it, or why their specific part is valuable, you get an organization like the Reds run. No matter what you are paying your employees they aren't going to be as happy and as productive as they could be.

GL

KronoRed
08-02-2007, 12:05 PM
Since when are FO's obligated to do so?

Who said they were? I commented that maybe Dunn was upset because he was told he was being dealt and then wasn't

Johnny Footstool
08-02-2007, 12:06 PM
He was moved from QB to tight end because the Longhorns had a couple of guys ahead of him by the names of Simms and Applewhite. When they moved him is when he turned to baseball full time. So he actually wanted to be the QB.

Nice try, but we all know he quit football because he was lazy.

wally post
08-02-2007, 12:07 PM
I think some folks are missing the point a little. I think his comments were more frustration from the media's constant asking him about it morso that the FO.

Bingo! Also, these guys are together a whole lot (like a touring band) and it is common to get into an "us versus them" thing.
This is nothing IMO.

Strikes Out Looking
08-02-2007, 12:42 PM
I think Sweet Lou would be sitting in Hamilton County jail right now if he had been named manager of the Reds. If looks could kill half of the Cubs bullpen would be dead right now.

Dead, but in first place.

Roy Tucker
08-02-2007, 12:58 PM
I think Sweet Lou would be sitting in Hamilton County jail right now if he had been named manager of the Reds. If looks could kill half of the Cubs bullpen would be dead right now.

I think Lou can turn around underperforming teams with talent ('99 Reds, this years Cubs). He certainly has lit a fire under the Cubs this year.

But if the horses ain't there (his stint at Tampa Bay), he can't work miracles. All the fireworks and histrionics can't make up for that.

I believe this years Reds fall in the latter category.

Roy Tucker
08-02-2007, 01:00 PM
And for Dunn, I think it was simply frustration talking.

I can't blame the guy. Even my wife (who doesn't give a flying fig about baseball) has noticed the incessant trade-Dunn pitchfork and torches gang on all the local media.

George Anderson
08-02-2007, 01:05 PM
And for Dunn, I think it was simply frustration talking.

I can't blame the guy. Even my wife (who doesn't give a flying fig about baseball) has noticed the incessant trade-Dunn pitchfork and torches gang on all the local media.

I'm to the point I would almost like to see Dunn traded because I am so tired of hearing and reading about him.

flyer85
08-02-2007, 01:07 PM
I'm to the point I would almost like to see Dunn traded because I am so tired of hearing and reading about him.If you want to read between the lines I think it is safe to conclude Dunn feels the same way.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 01:13 PM
In my experience almost eveyone likes to feel like they have a part in building something worthwhile. Give them the plan of attack and let them know where they fit into that plan of attack, why you see it as valuable, and how much you are counting on them. If I give my staff ownship in the things we build I invariably get top notch work out of everyone involved.

If you don't tell people the plan, their part in it, or why their specific part is valuable, you get an organization like the Reds run. No matter what you are paying your employees they aren't going to be as happy and as productive as they could be.

GL

I think they like to be part of a winner. And if a company or team is circling the drain, then it's no fun no matter how much ownership of the process they have or how informed they are.

Dunn and Jr. have been treated well by the Reds, IMO. Dunn signed an extension with a limited no-trade clause. How many young players get that type of protection?

Steinbrenner was a tyrant in the late 70s; sending players to AAA for making an error. Terrorizing his managers. The clubhouse was divided, etc. But the champagne was just as sweet in 77 and 78.

I understand that Dunn is frustrated. And I backed him up on his little rant against the broadcasters. I think he was 100% right on with that complaint, and I think the Reds need to address that problem.

But I don't sympathize with "Employee #3" and "Employee #44". I think they've been treated just fine by the organization.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 01:15 PM
If you want to read between the lines I think it is safe to conclude Dunn feels the same way.

Do you think he likes playing baseball professionally?

flyer85
08-02-2007, 01:21 PM
Do you think he likes playing baseball professionally?I think he enjoys it lot, unlike a lot of professional athletes it does not define who he is.

OldXOhio
08-02-2007, 01:27 PM
I think Lou can turn around underperforming teams with talent ('99 Reds, this years Cubs). He certainly has lit a fire under the Cubs this year.

But if the horses ain't there (his stint at Tampa Bay), he can't work miracles. All the fireworks and histrionics can't make up for that.

I believe this years Reds fall in the latter category.

I agree with you about the Cubs but the Reds I'm not so sure (you said '99, I assume you meant '90?). The Reds that year, while not untalented, were not what I'd call an abundantly loaded team, outside of the pen of course. I think that team caught lightning in a bottle come the playoffs after struggling most of the 2nd half.

BrooklynRedz
08-02-2007, 02:28 PM
So how much money do you have to mkae before you're not allowed to feel any emotions or feel any frustration. Is it $100k, $1MM, $5MM? What's the cutoff? Just curious, because while I don't make as much as Dunn, I do get frustrated some times. Am I supposed to sit tight and not say anything because I'm paid a salary?

I respect you as a poster, but this is a ridiculous argument. Are you saying I'm not allowed to question the airing of frustrations by a player to the media? Because that's what my post was about: the expression of that frustration. Not the frustration itself.

I'm sorry he's frustrated about being a topic at the trade deadline. But if he didn't want to be a topic, he's not without measures to resolve and prevent that. He and his agent can work something out with the club if he truly wants to remain in Cincy beyond the length of his current contract. There deferred payments, for instance, that reduce the immediate financial burden on the club while also protecting the economic interests of the player.

gonelong
08-02-2007, 03:50 PM
I think they like to be part of a winner. And if a company or team is circling the drain, then it's no fun no matter how much ownership of the process they have or how informed they are.

IMO you just summed up the problem with the Reds organization. They see the team circling the drain when the team could have them directed/focused on working today to build for the future. The team doesn't seem to have a plan for the future, at least not one they are willing to share with the team or the fans from what I can tell.



Dunn and Jr. have been treated well by the Reds, IMO. Dunn signed an extension with a limited no-trade clause. How many young players get that type of protection?

Dunn signed and extension with a limited no-trade clause because he had the leverage to do so. It certainly wasn't out of the kindness by the organization. Dunn & his agent likely asked for it (and wisely so) because he knew the Reds would try to trade him.



But I don't sympathize with "Employee #3" and "Employee #44". I think they've been treated just fine by the organization.

I don't think the organization has mistreated them. I also don't see any signs that the Reds have put in the effort to make them feel like they are anything more than Employee #3 and #44.

Money is gratifying in the short-term, but it doesn't seem to hold up for most people in the long-run, regardless the number of 0's in the check.

GL

Ltlabner
08-02-2007, 03:58 PM
Nice try, but we all know he quit football because he was lazy.

I heard that he didn't sprint from the sidelines to the huddle when he went into games.

NJReds
08-02-2007, 04:02 PM
IMO you just summed up the problem with the Reds organization. They see the team circling the drain when the team could have them directed/focused on working today to buld for the future. The team doesn't seem to have a plan for the future, at least not one they are willing to share with the team or the fans.

While they haven't shared anything with the fans, it's conjecture to say they haven't shared plans with the players. Although it's hard to say how much information ownership should give the players regarding future plans. I wonder how many owners/GMs have team meetings with little powerpoint presentations on what direction a team is going.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Reds have a plan to share. They seem rather clueless at times.


Dunn signed and extension with a limited no-trade clause because he had the leverage to do so. It certainly wasn't out of the kindness by the organization. Dunn & his agent likely asked for it (and wisely so) because he knew the Reds would try to trade him.

Right. He treated that opportunity in a business-like manner, using his leverage. The organization could trade him, too. It's a business. Dunn seems to be taking it personally.


I don't think the organization has mistreated them. I also don't see any signs that the Reds have put in the effort to make them feel like they are anything more than Employee #3 and #44.

In essence, that's what they are. And it's not much different on other teams. To Dunn, I'll agree to some extent. I think Jr. has had the red carpet rolled out for him since he arrived.

MartyFan
08-02-2007, 04:04 PM
In my experience almost eveyone likes to feel like they have a part in building something worthwhile. Give them the plan of attack and let them know where they fit into that plan of attack, why you see it as valuable, and how much you are counting on them. If I give my staff ownship in the things we build I invariably get top notch work out of everyone involved.

If you don't tell people the plan, their part in it, or why their specific part is valuable, you get an organization like the Reds run. No matter what you are paying your employees they aren't going to be as happy and as productive as they could be.

GL

I agree with you to a large degree, there isn't anything I would say any different in team building at the corporate level...but I think it is a bit over the top to pretend we know anything about how this organization under this ownership and GM have treated the employees wearing numbers on their backs...I just flat out think Dunn is not a good fit for this organization and where it is heading...not at this point anyway. I mean when the Reds move to the AL then Dunn would be a great player to have on the roster...it's not because of his salary, his strike outs or his poor fielding...oh wait, yeah it is.

His strike outs really are not a big deal when you look at what else he does but the problem is he only does the "what else" stuff so-so at best...so he is best suited to sit in a dugout and go take "donkey kong" swings a few times a game and then go back and sit on the bench...Krivsky is smart and knows that the value of what the Reds will get by trading Adam Dunn this winter or next summer will be WAY more than what he would have got at the deadline this year...heck, if the team lets him walk we'll probably get more value back than what would have come back in a trade.

I am not sympathetic to Dunn in any way shape or form, seems that he had a discussion with the GM and Ownership when Kearns was sent packing and he caught on for a little bit...seems he worked a little over the off season and came in ready to play. Lately it looks like he has focused on the video games instead of what he is paid to do.

He is a good guy, good player (if used in his proper role of DH) but he is not a player that should take up space on this team.

MartyFan
08-02-2007, 04:08 PM
I think Lou can turn around underperforming teams with talent ('99 Reds, this years Cubs). He certainly has lit a fire under the Cubs this year.

But if the horses ain't there (his stint at Tampa Bay), he can't work miracles. All the fireworks and histrionics can't make up for that.

I believe this years Reds fall in the latter category.

Lou did not manage the Reds in 1999...he was working with Seattle then.

Jack McKeon was the manager of the Reds that year.

RichRed
08-02-2007, 04:14 PM
I just flat out think Dunn is not a good fit for this organization and where it is heading...not at this point anyway.


I think you've just inadvertantly paid Dunn a big compliment.


Lately it looks like he has focused on the video games instead of what he is paid to do.

Good grief, this stuff again? Come on.

MartyFan
08-02-2007, 04:17 PM
It certainly was not a compliment to Dunn on any level...as for the video game thing...just a stereotypical cheap shot that expresses my complete conviction that he is not a complete ball player and that he will not work to even become just below average at the things he is bad at.

Roy Tucker
08-02-2007, 04:19 PM
Lou did not manage the Reds in 1999...he was working with Seattle then.

Jack McKeon was the manager of the Reds that year.

Aw jeez, so I had a senior moment. All those years start running together. At least I was in the right decade.

For the record, I did mean 1990.

nate
08-02-2007, 04:38 PM
I heard that he didn't sprint from the sidelines to the huddle when he went into games.

He was also caught smiling while losing...led the team in smiles per loss.

deltachi8
08-02-2007, 06:43 PM
Didn't Adam shoot a man in reno once just to watch him die....but did so rather lazily?

gm
08-02-2007, 07:00 PM
Speaking of #44.


Speaking of #44 and ED...isn't it ironic that two notable Red's players who have worn #44 have been the most polarizing to Cincy's fanbase, in the past 20 years?

Woe to the next Red's pheenom who is assigned the dreaded "four four"

MWM
08-02-2007, 07:34 PM
I respect you as a poster, but this is a ridiculous argument. Are you saying I'm not allowed to question the airing of frustrations by a player to the media? Because that's what my post was about: the expression of that frustration. Not the frustration itself.

I'm sorry he's frustrated about being a topic at the trade deadline. But if he didn't want to be a topic, he's not without measures to resolve and prevent that. He and his agent can work something out with the club if he truly wants to remain in Cincy beyond the length of his current contract. There deferred payments, for instance, that reduce the immediate financial burden on the club while also protecting the economic interests of the player.

I guess I just didn't see why his salary was relevant then. My reaction was to the idea that he should just sit tight and not compain because he makes a lot of money.

KronoRed
08-02-2007, 09:30 PM
Didn't Adam shoot a man in reno once just to watch him die....but did so rather lazily?

Automatic weapon, slacker

Big Klu
08-03-2007, 02:04 AM
Speaking of #44 and ED...isn't it ironic that two notable Red's players who have worn #44 have been the most polarizing to Cincy's fanbase, in the past 20 years?

Woe to the next Red's pheenom who is assigned the dreaded "four four"

It didn't bother John Roper that much... :D

Ron Madden
08-03-2007, 02:33 AM
It certainly was not a compliment to Dunn on any level...as for the video game thing...just a stereotypical cheap shot that expresses my complete conviction that he is not a complete ball player and that he will not work to even become just below average at the things he is bad at.

Lance?

Lance McAlister is that you?

OldXOhio
08-03-2007, 08:14 AM
Speaking of #44 and ED...isn't it ironic that two notable Red's players who have worn #44 have been the most polarizing to Cincy's fanbase, in the past 20 years?



And yet look how warmly ED is received by the city today. Perhaps the current discontent with Dunn makes some critics now say "you know, Eric Davis wasn't so bad after all." I guess the next forty four will prove to make Dunn look good as well....while he wears another team's uniform of course.

Doesn't make any sense in either player's case.

westofyou
08-03-2007, 11:00 AM
It certainly was not a compliment to Dunn on any level...as for the video game thing...just a stereotypical cheap shot that expresses my complete conviction that he is not a complete ball player and that he will not work to even become just below average at the things he is bad at.

Yawn...........

KronoRed
08-03-2007, 11:04 AM
And yet look how warmly ED is received by the city today. Perhaps the current discontent with Dunn makes some critics now say "you know, Eric Davis wasn't so bad after all." I guess the next forty four will prove to make Dunn look good as well....while he wears another team's uniform of course.


Maybe one day the some Cincy fans will relize that not every good ballplayer needs to be HOF worthy before they can cheer him

deltachi8
08-03-2007, 11:06 AM
Maybe one day the some Cincy fans will relize that not every good ballplayer needs to be HOF worthy before they can cheer him

Or be Pete Rose...

pedro
08-03-2007, 12:17 PM
Lately it looks like he has focused on the video games instead of what he is paid to do.



:rolleyes:

Ron Madden
08-04-2007, 04:58 AM
I agree with you to a large degree, there isn't anything I would say any different in team building at the corporate level...but I think it is a bit over the top to pretend we know anything about how this organization under this ownership and GM have treated the employees wearing numbers on their backs...I just flat out think Dunn is not a good fit for this organization and where it is heading...not at this point anyway. I mean when the Reds move to the AL then Dunn would be a great player to have on the roster...it's not because of his salary, his strike outs or his poor fielding...oh wait, yeah it is.

His strike outs really are not a big deal when you look at what else he does but the problem is he only does the "what else" stuff so-so at best...so he is best suited to sit in a dugout and go take "donkey kong" swings a few times a game and then go back and sit on the bench...Krivsky is smart and knows that the value of what the Reds will get by trading Adam Dunn this winter or next summer will be WAY more than what he would have got at the deadline this year...heck, if the team lets him walk we'll probably get more value back than what would have come back in a trade.

I am not sympathetic to Dunn in any way shape or form, seems that he had a discussion with the GM and Ownership when Kearns was sent packing and he caught on for a little bit...seems he worked a little over the off season and came in ready to play. Lately it looks like he has focused on the video games instead of what he is paid to do.

He is a good guy, good player (if used in his proper role of DH) but he is not a player that should take up space on this team.


I'm all for freedom of speech and things like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.. I really am.


I would never have believed that RedsZone would turn into anything like Reds.com. but I be damned if we aint gettin' close.
:(

GAC
08-04-2007, 05:36 AM
Maybe this team should build the players around Dunn that compliment him? I can never understand why they have this guy batting 6th. It's assinine. And if I hear one more person complain about how Dunn only hits meaningless solo shots I'm gonna shoot the neighbor's dog! It's his fault that the guys in front of him can't get on base and/or are mediocre low OB% players???

But here is an interesting article that I just read on Adam Dunn and Defining Plate Discipline. that I'd appreciate comment on....

http://mvn.com/mlb-stats/2007/05/24/the-adam-dunn-debate-defining-plate-discipline/

The Adam Dunn debate: Defining plate discipline

A small brag, if I the reader will humor me. A study of mine on strikeouts and walks has been published in By The Numbers, which is the official newsletter of SABR’s Statistics and Analysis Committee. The study (which you can find in this PDF file published under my… umm… real name… shhhhh) is entitled “Is Walk the Opposite of Strikeout” and I argue that the answer is no. Walk and strikeout are actually more alike than similar and that the opposite of these two is “ball in play.”

My starting point is the Adam Dunn debate as to whether he is a “disciplined” hitter. Dunn is the paragon of the “three true outcomes” hitter. He’s hit at least 40 HR in the last three years, while averaging something like 170 strikeouts and 110 walks. In 2006, he had one of those three outcomes in more than half of his plate appearances. Because of the large number of walks that he draws, Dunn has been referred to as a very disciplined hitter by some (probably all those who just finished Moneyball), while others have called him undisciplined, for the obvious reason that he’s been flirting with 200 strikeouts over the past few years. Who’s right? Well, a lot comes down to how you define plate discipline.

The most common measure of plate discipline that I’d found is some sort of ratio between strikeouts and walks, usually K/BB. The problem, which I point out in my article is that there is more than one way to avoid striking out. A walk certainly is one, but is it necessary that players with low walk totals are undisciplined. Is it not equally disciplined to take a big fat hanging curve ball and place it in the left field stands?

To that end, I developed two new metrics based on signal detection theory (SDT) http://wise.cgu.edu/sdtmod/index.asp while taking advantage of the pitch-by-pitch data in the Retrosheet data files. The article in By The Numbers goes into greater detail on how the metrics are calculated, but the basic idea behind signal detection theory is this: A batter must see whether or not the pitch is hittable (i.e., in the strike zone… more on the obvious objection to this in a minute) and then decide whether or not he should swing. He might swing at it and miss, or he might not swing and have it be a called strike. Either way he’s made a mistake and will have a strike called against him. However, from a signal detection theory standpoint, the type of mistakes he makes are telling. In fact, through looking at the two types of mistakes, plus the times that he actually hits the ball or takes a called ball, signal detection theory can generate two measures. One looks at how likely a batter is to swing, the other at how good a batter is at reading the strike zone and making good decisions. He may be good at reading the strike zone, just too anxious (or too passive) with his swings. Or, he may simply be guessing in the strike zone.

It turns out that the two measures actually correlate differently to walk and strike out rate. How good a hitter is at reading the strike zone was very correlated with his strikeout rate, but not walk rate. How likely he was to swing was more correlated with his walk rate, but not strikeout rate. Players who swung less walked more. Looks like walks and strikeouts are manifestations of two different skills.

There are a few problems. One is that players do swing at pitches in the strike zone and miss them. The other is that they will sometimes golf a hit off of their shoetops. Retrosheet data (which is free!) doesn’t give pitch locations. Eventually, I’ll learn how to mine the data from MLB’s Enhanced GameDay to my advantage on this one. But, for now, I think it’s an enhancement over the simple K/BB metric we have now.

In any case, take a look at the article, and discuss. I’d like to refine this a bit and it’s always better to have a little bit of collaboration.

And for what it’s worth, Adam Dunn finished #401 last year among all hitters with at least 100 PA. Out of 431. Perhaps you can tell which side of the debate I’m on.

ochre
08-04-2007, 08:18 AM
Maybe this team should build the players around Dunn that compliment him? I can never understand why they have this guy batting 6th. It's assinine. And if I hear one more person complain about how Dunn only hits meaningless solo shots I'm gonna shoot the neighbor's dog! It's his fault that the guys in front of him can't get on base and/or are mediocre low OB% players???

But here is an interesting article that I just read on Adam Dunn and Defining Plate Discipline. that I'd appreciate comment on....

http://mvn.com/mlb-stats/2007/05/24/the-adam-dunn-debate-defining-plate-discipline/

The Adam Dunn debate: Defining plate discipline

A small brag, if I the reader will humor me. A study of mine on strikeouts and walks has been published in By The Numbers, which is the official newsletter of SABR’s Statistics and Analysis Committee. The study (which you can find in this PDF file published under my… umm… real name… shhhhh) is entitled “Is Walk the Opposite of Strikeout” and I argue that the answer is no. Walk and strikeout are actually more alike than similar and that the opposite of these two is “ball in play.”

My starting point is the Adam Dunn debate as to whether he is a “disciplined” hitter. Dunn is the paragon of the “three true outcomes” hitter. He’s hit at least 40 HR in the last three years, while averaging something like 170 strikeouts and 110 walks. In 2006, he had one of those three outcomes in more than half of his plate appearances. Because of the large number of walks that he draws, Dunn has been referred to as a very disciplined hitter by some (probably all those who just finished Moneyball), while others have called him undisciplined, for the obvious reason that he’s been flirting with 200 strikeouts over the past few years. Who’s right? Well, a lot comes down to how you define plate discipline.

The most common measure of plate discipline that I’d found is some sort of ratio between strikeouts and walks, usually K/BB. The problem, which I point out in my article is that there is more than one way to avoid striking out. A walk certainly is one, but is it necessary that players with low walk totals are undisciplined. Is it not equally disciplined to take a big fat hanging curve ball and place it in the left field stands?

To that end, I developed two new metrics based on signal detection theory (SDT) http://wise.cgu.edu/sdtmod/index.asp while taking advantage of the pitch-by-pitch data in the Retrosheet data files. The article in By The Numbers goes into greater detail on how the metrics are calculated, but the basic idea behind signal detection theory is this: A batter must see whether or not the pitch is hittable (i.e., in the strike zone… more on the obvious objection to this in a minute) and then decide whether or not he should swing. He might swing at it and miss, or he might not swing and have it be a called strike. Either way he’s made a mistake and will have a strike called against him. However, from a signal detection theory standpoint, the type of mistakes he makes are telling. In fact, through looking at the two types of mistakes, plus the times that he actually hits the ball or takes a called ball, signal detection theory can generate two measures. One looks at how likely a batter is to swing, the other at how good a batter is at reading the strike zone and making good decisions. He may be good at reading the strike zone, just too anxious (or too passive) with his swings. Or, he may simply be guessing in the strike zone.

It turns out that the two measures actually correlate differently to walk and strike out rate. How good a hitter is at reading the strike zone was very correlated with his strikeout rate, but not walk rate. How likely he was to swing was more correlated with his walk rate, but not strikeout rate. Players who swung less walked more. Looks like walks and strikeouts are manifestations of two different skills.

There are a few problems. One is that players do swing at pitches in the strike zone and miss them. The other is that they will sometimes golf a hit off of their shoetops. Retrosheet data (which is free!) doesn’t give pitch locations. Eventually, I’ll learn how to mine the data from MLB’s Enhanced GameDay to my advantage on this one. But, for now, I think it’s an enhancement over the simple K/BB metric we have now.

In any case, take a look at the article, and discuss. I’d like to refine this a bit and it’s always better to have a little bit of collaboration.

And for what it’s worth, Adam Dunn finished #401 last year among all hitters with at least 100 PA. Out of 431. Perhaps you can tell which side of the debate I’m on.
Now there's a subjective metric. Even the premise behind it is flawed. "In the strike zone" != "hittable". Even Ted Williams had holes in his swing. A disciplined hitter in my book doesn't chase pitches he can't "drive" (at least not with < 2 strikes). I wonder if his metric might not be a better indicator of batter height? In effect his statistic makes the world shattering declaration that those players that swing at pitches with greater frequency put the ball in play more often. I tend to define plate discipline more as the hitters attempt to wait for a pitch that they can really handle. The draw back to that, from a "k" perspective is that they'll tend to put themselves in a lot of 2 strike situations.

I wonder where castro ranks in that system?

WVRedsFan
08-04-2007, 10:11 AM
I'm all for freedom of speech and things like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.. I really am.


I would never have believed that RedsZone would turn into anything like Reds.com. but I be damned if we aint gettin' close.
:(

Although there is a lot of intelligent discussion here, which really sets us apart from Reds.com, it seems no matter how much we try to be a better board, we fall short, and that's normal in the world of the world wide web. The new Old Red Guard doesn't differ much from the Old Old Red Guard mainly because we are people who normally have good days and bad days. Unfortunately, this team causes many of us to have more bad days than good days and the posts reflect this.

That said, the anti-Dunn people really confuse me. I know as a kid I was taught that baseball was really a simple game. You score as many runs as you can and hold the other team to less than you score. This team in its present configuration doesn't do the second part very well, so we need to really score a lot of runs to win. Adam Dunn produces runs. You can count on him for 40 big flies each year and nearly 100 RBIs. Runs. He maybe doesn't do it when we think he should all the time, but he produces. His defense is not good and since he's a huge guy with a long stride and isn't blessed with speed. If you take his RBIs out of the picture, as well as his HRs, you go farther in the hole in needing more runs. You have to replace that production elsewhere and I don't see anyone on the horizon who can do that. So, I don't want to see Dunn go.

Yes, he strikes out a lot, but he also walks a lot. He gets on base at a percentage that lots of guys making far more than he does can only dream about. And yet we want him outa here. Is it because we think we can get a good pitcher, who might pitch every fifth day, for him or is it because we think we can't afford him? Good question. There's more to it than just his defense and striking out. I don't know.

What I do know is this debate will rage forever and a day until he's gone and once he is, I pray that he's traded to the American League. Otherwise, we'll have to face him several times a season and really get hacked off everytime he hits a homer, walks to fill the bases or drives in one of 100 runs against us. And he will return to Cincy ten years from now as a hero. Ask Eric Davis and Frank Robinson about this. They can identify.

NJReds
08-04-2007, 11:31 AM
Although there is a lot of intelligent discussion here, which really sets us apart from Reds.com, it seems no matter how much we try to be a better board, we fall short, and that's normal in the world of the world wide web.

Look at Reds.com a little more closely. And then look at RedsZone. Just because Dunn doesn't get universal acceptance here, doesn't mean that we've regressed to Reds.com levels. That's an insult to all of the people here that post intelligently and without issue.

Not everyone is going to agree on the value of every player. The frustration of many losing seasons takes its toll on even the most loyal of fans. Dunn is a lightning rod like no other...but he is not beyond reproach.

It goes both ways, too. There are many more negative posts against players like Aurilia (when he was here), Hatteberg (when he was signed, and even coming into this year), Alex Gonzalez...the list goes on. Is every single criticism fair, correct, not defensible? Certainly there are not many jump to their defense. Does that make us like reds.com?

Mario-Rijo
08-04-2007, 12:51 PM
Mine has been an Adam Dunn roller coaster for sometime. I always liked him (which I can verify) until sometime early last season, and still since then it's been an up and down situation with my appreciation for him. Right now and for most of this season I have been ok with his entire game I have been looking for his offseason work both in his conditioning and work with Jaramillo to start paying off. So I expected those early bumps in the road.

I do like the HR's and the RBI's and greatly appreciate when we are in a spot where we need patience and someone who is willing to accept the walk that's being given. I don't fault him as much as others for his defense as his major issue out there IMO is his range or more specifically the lack thereof. And my common sense says how can anyone fault a 6'6 275 lb. man for not having great range? Yet for a guy that size his range isn't that bad.

I'm not sure if he has the "quickness" to play 1st, if he doesn't LF or DH is all he is cut out for. If he does have the quickness I can't see why he couldn't play it effectively or at least more effectively than he can play LF. Of course in the IF we have to consider how he would effect everyone else's game, would that part of the equation it make the switch a wash? I can only wonder this as we don't have enough info to make that argument completely. He has played 1st quite a bit in his career (108 games, 83 starts, 763.7 innings) and had 12 errors and a RF9 of 9.69 (lgRF9 9.51) which suggests too me that he has a more than reasonable shot of playing it.

As far as his offense goes the issue I have had with him and the organization is that he hasn't improved much if any from day 1. And prior to this season he had 2 consecutive seasons where his overall production declined from the prior yr. He went from 124 RC, to 111, to 99, decline of that magnitude is just not acceptable from him or the organization for allowing him to go out there w/o any or much help.

This last 2 months will be telling to me as it's 2 of his worst months historically speaking. I expect him to have an avg last 2 months based on the expectations of his off-season conditioning. Which IMO is pretty good considering how he normally produces around these months. If he does the norm I will be pretty disappointed. Either way I will be basing some large degree of his future worth on it.

westofyou
08-04-2007, 01:13 PM
He went from 124 RC, to 111, to 99, decline of that magnitude is just not acceptable from him or the organization for allowing him to go out there w/o any or much help.

Vs the league average in those years his RC was +46, +41 and +19

If +19 is what bothers you the I suppose this year's pace for RC created (about 118) should make you at least smile.

WVRedsFan
08-04-2007, 01:26 PM
Look at Reds.com a little more closely. And then look at RedsZone. Just because Dunn doesn't get universal acceptance here, doesn't mean that we've regressed to Reds.com levels. That's an insult to all of the people here that post intelligently and without issue.

Not everyone is going to agree on the value of every player. The frustration of many losing seasons takes its toll on even the most loyal of fans. Dunn is a lightning rod like no other...but he is not beyond reproach.

It goes both ways, too. There are many more negative posts against players like Aurilia (when he was here), Hatteberg (when he was signed, and even coming into this year), Alex Gonzalez...the list goes on. Is every single criticism fair, correct, not defensible? Certainly there are not many jump to their defense. Does that make us like reds.com?

I really wasn't talking about the Dunn conversation. There will always be disagreements on certain players. For instance, i'm not a Ryan Freel fan and most are. No biggie. That's the way it is and we should agree to disagree.

I was referring to the nasty tone, common on reds.com, that surfaces here from time to time. Like i said, it is mostly the losing, but I wasn't insulting you or anyone else. I've been naughty most of this season too, and I'm trying to be better. It's a 7-step plan, but I can't even get through step 1.:(

Mario-Rijo
08-04-2007, 01:38 PM
Vs the league average in those years his RC was +46, +41 and +19

If +19 is what bothers you the I suppose this year's pace for RC created (about 118) should make you at least smile.

Not so much the +19 that bothers me as it is the drop from +46 or even +41 to +19. And as I stated in that above post he has been fine so far this season September and August will tell the tale.

Can he stay on that pace or will he fall off dramatically? I say he doesn't raise the pace but that's possible as well, but that he will maintain the pace due to his seemingly better conditioning.

westofyou
08-04-2007, 02:08 PM
Not so much the +19 that bothers me as it is the drop from +46 or even +41 to +19. And as I stated in that above post he has been fine so far this season September and August will tell the tale.

Can he stay on that pace or will he fall off dramatically? I say he doesn't raise the pace but that's possible as well, but that he will maintain the pace due to his seemingly better conditioning.
A drop of 5 runs bothers you that much?


It's still good enough to be the 9th best vs the league in franchise history since 1980. And 14th best for a Reds player under age 27 since 1945.

That's a LOT of players who must have disappointed you even more.


CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1980-2007

RUNS CREATED YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Eric Davis 1987 59 124 65
2 Kal Daniels 1987 52 100 48
3 Barry Larkin 1996 49 124 75
4 Reggie Sanders 1995 47 115 68
T5 Kevin Mitchell 1994 46 90 44
T5 Adam Dunn 2004 46 129 83
T7 Eric Davis 1986 42 96 54
T7 Barry Larkin 1995 42 109 67
9 Adam Dunn 2005 41 120 79
10 Barry Larkin 1998 40 114 74

NJReds
08-04-2007, 04:07 PM
I was referring to the nasty tone, common on reds.com, that surfaces here from time to time. Like i said, it is mostly the losing, but I wasn't insulting you or anyone else. I've been naughty most of this season too, and I'm trying to be better. It's a 7-step plan, but I can't even get through step 1.:(


The big difference is that the nasty tone is a daily, even hourly occurance on reds.com. All the good posters that used to be there are gone.

GAC
08-04-2007, 04:32 PM
I wanted to post this chart from Baseball Musing's website- and thanks to texasdave for turning me on to this site - which charts RBI Percentage(RBI-HR) with Runners On....

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/RBIPCT.py?StartDate=07&#37;2F20%2F2001&EndDate=08%2F03%2F2007&SortField=OnRBI.RunnersOn&SortDir=desc&MinPA=2475

Redsland
08-04-2007, 04:48 PM
That chart can't be right because it says Adam Dunn is the 21st-best player in the majors at driving in runners that do not include himself, but I have been told on many occasions that Adam Dunn is not a run producer.

edabbs44
08-04-2007, 04:58 PM
That chart can't be right because it says Adam Dunn is the 21st-best player in the majors at driving in runners that do not include himself, but I have been told on many occasions that Adam Dunn is not a run producer.

It isn't right. :)

You might want to look at the default stats and all that to get some clarity...Dunn isn't "21st best." He's 21st out of 21 with a minimum of 2475 runners on. In other words, dead last.

If you change the defaults to 2000 runners on, he is 75th out of 76 in RBI &#37;. Right behind David Bell and just ahead of Jack Wilson.

I predict any meaning attached to this stat just disappeared.

Redsland
08-04-2007, 05:08 PM
You might want to look at the default stats and all that to get some clarity...Dunn isn't "21st best." He's 21st out of 21 with a minimum of 2475 runners on. In other words, dead last.
So it does. :doh:

He makes up for it with his glove, though. :cool:

pedro
08-04-2007, 05:23 PM
what the chart doesn't tell use is

1. where on base were those runners?

2. what each guys OBP was in those situations which is an improtant factor in the production of runs as well.

Redsland
08-04-2007, 05:36 PM
Okay, so for his career, Adam has driven in 12.42&#37; of the runners on base. Since July of last year, he's driven in 12.83%, so he's been consistent of late.

His worst year was 02-03, when he drove in just 9.11% of runners on. That percentage climbed for three straight years, to 10.34% in 03-04, 14.43% in 04-05, and 15.23% in 05-06, before settling in this year at the 12.83% figure noted above.

You'll remember the 05-06 campaign not only as Adam's best one so far by this measure, but also for being the year that Frank Catalanotto won the title outright. Finishing just out of the money was none other than Jorge Cantu in the fourth slot, one notch higher than Vladimir Guerrero.

So, obviously, now we know why Jorge Cantu is here. ;)

edabbs44
08-04-2007, 05:57 PM
what the chart doesn't tell use is

1. where on base were those runners?

2. what each guys OBP was in those situations which is an improtant factor in the production of runs as well.

While you do have a point, the list does tend to start with the stars at the top and the lesser players towards the bottom. While there are always outliers, Pujols/Vlad/Mags at the top should shock no one and neither should Kendall, Bell and Jack Wilson towards the bottom.

ochre
08-04-2007, 06:08 PM
Dunn's biggest problem (perhaps it's due to his size and the difficulty maintaining a groove on a large scale) is his fairly long funks he goes in to. Outside of '04 (the year he slumped june-ish/july-ish), if you look at his numbers through July, or early August, he's up around 15&#37;, or so. I am hoping he can keep those slump periods minimized from here on out.

This statistic is interesting, but it perhaps goes a bit overboard, particularly with an extreme player like Dunn. It sort of negates his primary strengths/contributions to team run production. His combination of high Secondary average and HR power are fairly unique skill sets. I would use it as evidence as to why he's better suited to hit 2 than 5 though.

Mario-Rijo
08-04-2007, 08:01 PM
A drop of 5 runs bothers you that much?


It's still good enough to be the 9th best vs the league in franchise history since 1980. And 14th best for a Reds player under age 27 since 1945.

That's a LOT of players who must have disappointed you even more.


CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1980-2007

RUNS CREATED YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Eric Davis 1987 59 124 65
2 Kal Daniels 1987 52 100 48
3 Barry Larkin 1996 49 124 75
4 Reggie Sanders 1995 47 115 68
T5 Kevin Mitchell 1994 46 90 44
T5 Adam Dunn 2004 46 129 83
T7 Eric Davis 1986 42 96 54
T7 Barry Larkin 1995 42 109 67
9 Adam Dunn 2005 41 120 79
10 Barry Larkin 1998 40 114 74


Huh, no I said the drop from 46 or 41 to 19. And yes a drop of 22 rc's does bother me.

westofyou
08-05-2007, 12:58 AM
Dunn: "We could have easily folded up the tent and closed up shop and everyone could play for themselves, but I don't see that. I see guys legitimately trying to get guys over, trying to still win. If we keep doing that, it should be a fun last two months."

Dunn gave a lot of credit to Mackanin for that -- "I think it's a lot. He's fun, let's us do our own thing as long as we play hard and show up. He likes to have fun and joke around. He's got a lot of personality."

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/

GAC
08-05-2007, 07:16 AM
what the chart doesn't tell use is

1. where on base were those runners?

2. what each guys OBP was in those situations which is an improtant factor in the production of runs as well.

You're right. It just shows runners on base. But I don't see how knowing those runner's OB&#37; is a factor in charting Dunn RBI percentage once they are on base.

But I will say this....

We were discussing Dunn the other night in chat when texasdave posted this chart in defense of Adam. The way it was presented, and the way we all interpreted it, is that the "key" is the time frame. The reason that Dunn is 21st is because in the last 6 years the "leaders" on that chart have had far greater numbers of men on base in that time frame. And the more numbers of men you have on base gives greater opportunities.

I thought it was presented as more of an indictment of our mediocracy of people batting ahead of Dunn at getting on base.

But I could easily be wrong, and have misinterpreted what dave meant and what the chart illustrates.

That's why I posted it. I thought it needed greater interpretation/expanation as to what it says. Because when I see charts like this, I sometimes turn into Foghorn Leghorn. ;)

http://a7.vox.com/6a00c22521fe748fdb00d09e51ee47be2b-200pi

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 08:47 AM
You're right. It just shows runners on base. But I don't see how knowing those runner's OB% is a factor in charting Dunn RBI percentage once they are on base.

But I will say this....

We were discussing Dunn the other night in chat when texasdave posted this chart in defense of Adam. The way it was presented, and the way we all interpreted it, is that the "key" is the time frame. The reason that Dunn is 21st is because in the last 6 years the "leaders" on that chart have had far greater numbers of men on base in that time frame. And the more numbers of men you have on base gives greater opportunities.

I thought it was presented as more of an indictment of our mediocracy of people batting ahead of Dunn at getting on base.

But I could easily be wrong, and have misinterpreted what dave meant and what the chart illustrates.

That's why I posted it. I thought it needed greater interpretation/expanation as to what it says. Because when I see charts like this, I sometimes turn into Foghorn Leghorn. ;)

http://a7.vox.com/6a00c22521fe748fdb00d09e51ee47be2b-200pi

The key is the filters. If you play around with those criteria, you will see that the chart is actually pretty bad for Adam. Look at it now.

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/RBIPCT.py?StartDate=07%2F20%2F2001&EndDate=08%2F03%2F2007&SortField=1.0*%28OnRBI.RBI-OnRBI.HRs%29%2FOnRBI.RunnersOn&SortDir=desc&MinPA=2000

ochre
08-05-2007, 09:32 AM
It's bad for Dunn if it really means anything big picture-wise. What, exactly, does RBI percentage mean in regards to team runs scored?

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 09:42 AM
It's bad for Dunn if it really means anything big picture-wise. What, exactly, does RBI percentage mean in regards to team runs scored?

It means absolutely nothing. All that needs to take place for a run to score is someone getting on base. It doesn't ever involve a following event taking place for that runner to score.

I often wonder why there are 4 bases on a baseball diamond. They should just take away 2nd, 3rd and home.

ochre
08-05-2007, 09:46 AM
I think that's called cricket. They used to occasionally show matches on Fox sports world, or whatever it was called before it became Fox Soccer Channel.

GAC
08-05-2007, 09:58 AM
It means absolutely nothing. All that needs to take place for a run to score is someone getting on base. It doesn't ever involve a following event taking place for that runner to score.

That's true. But doesn't the chart show a percentage (success rate) of a particular player when that opportunity (runners on base) is present?

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 10:12 AM
That's true. But doesn't the chart show a percentage (success rate) of a particular player when that opportunity (runners on base) is present?

I think we're on the same side here.

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 10:13 AM
I think that's called cricket. They used to occasionally show matches on Fox sports world, or whatever it was called before it became Fox Soccer Channel.

Not sure what you are getting at, but bottom line is a big part of the game is driving runners in. That isn't the strongest aspect of Adam's game.

ochre
08-05-2007, 10:13 AM
That's true. But doesn't the chart show a percentage (success rate) of a particular player when that opportunity (runners on base) is present?
It ignores walks. At worst they are a neutral event. At best they (potentially) advance the runner(s), or put another duck on the pond, for the next hitter without contributing an out. It's something Dunn did 223** times for the last three full seasons (2004-2006). I think that's a fairly important contribution. It would be even nicer if he was followed in the batting order by the team's best contact driven hitter, another compelling reason for Dunn to hit second.

**whoops I was off a column on the stat page, that should read that he has 201 walks not 223. 223 was his RBI total for that period (733 AB).

ochre
08-05-2007, 10:14 AM
Not sure what you are getting at, but bottom line is a big part of the game is driving runners in. That isn't the strongest aspect of Adam's game.
Cricket doesn't have an equivalent to 2b and 3b? Just a bit of humor directed at your sarcasm, sorry.

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 10:37 AM
It ignores walks. At worst they are a neutral event. At best they (potentially) advance the runner(s), or put another duck on the pond, for the next hitter without contributing an out. It's something Dunn did 223** times for the last three full seasons (2004-2006). I think that's a fairly important contribution. It would be even nicer if he was followed in the batting order by the team's best contact driven hitter, another compelling reason for Dunn to hit second.

**whoops I was off a column on the stat page, that should read that he has 201 walks not 223. 223 was his RBI total for that period (733 AB).

I don't think anyone discounts the value of a walk, but since Dunn has been the chief offensive threat on the team during that time span, I'd rather see him contributing by hitting the ball.

***Disclaimer***

When I say "I'd rather see him contributing by hitting the ball", I do not mean "expanding his zone" and swinging at balls in the dirt. That is all. :)

ochre
08-05-2007, 10:57 AM
I don't think anyone discounts the value of a walk, but since Dunn has been the chief offensive threat on the team during that time span, I'd rather see him contributing by hitting the ball.

***Disclaimer***

When I say "I'd rather see him contributing by hitting the ball", I do not mean "expanding his zone" and swinging at balls in the dirt. That is all. :)
I wasn't saying that people were discounting walks, I was just pointing out that the measurement in question didn't have anything to say about them. As I said before, that's kind of a tough stance to take on a player like Dunn. Burrell is towards the bottom on the ones I looked at as well, as he has similar Secondary average and ISOP numbers to Dunn, I contend that RBI percentage doesn't paint those types of players (those stats, SECA and ISOP, are generally long-term maintainable/projectable) all that well, while favoring (in shorter windows like single season runs) fluky one year wonder types (and of course the truly dominant types like Vlad and Pujols).

RANDY IN INDY
08-05-2007, 12:53 PM
I don't think anyone discounts the value of a walk, but since Dunn has been the chief offensive threat on the team during that time span, I'd rather see him contributing by hitting the ball.

***Disclaimer***

When I say "I'd rather see him contributing by hitting the ball", I do not mean "expanding his zone" and swinging at balls in the dirt. That is all. :)

You were wise to use the disclaimer, but soon enough, you will be told that the disclaimer is not a realistic expectation and that swinging more will just create more outs.

GAC
08-05-2007, 01:22 PM
You are right ochre in that it doesn't take into account the BB unless the bases were full during that A/B and a walk drives in a run. It would then be figured into this particular chart/measurement. It would have to be.

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 01:48 PM
I wasn't saying that people were discounting walks, I was just pointing out that the measurement in question didn't have anything to say about them. As I said before, that's kind of a tough stance to take on a player like Dunn. Burrell is towards the bottom on the ones I looked at as well, as he has similar Secondary average and ISOP numbers to Dunn, I contend that RBI percentage doesn't paint those types of players (those stats, SECA and ISOP, are generally long-term maintainable/projectable) all that well, while favoring (in shorter windows like single season runs) fluky one year wonder types (and of course the truly dominant types like Vlad and Pujols).

Burrell being "toward the bottom" is a very relative phrase. The difference between Dunn (12.42&#37;) and Burrell (15%) is roughly the same as the difference between Burrell and Teixeira (17.5%), Manny (17.78%) and Papi (17.84%). Even though Dunn is close to Burrell on the list, he really isn't close to him in RBI percentage.

It's truly amazing how poorly he has performed in this stat. If you drop the "runners on" filter to 1500, he is still scraping the bottom. Dunn is just behind Cristian Guzman and just ahead of Brad Ausmus. Ouch.

gonelong
08-05-2007, 02:20 PM
It seems to me that getting a runner in from 2nd or 3rd is a skill that is much easier to find (and replace) than the skill of scoring a runner from 1st or from Home Plate. I'd think it would then make that skill more valuable due to its scarcity.

GL

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 02:23 PM
It seems to me that getting a runner in from 2nd or 3rd is a skill that is much easier to find (and replace) than the skill of scoring a runner from 1st or from Home Plate. I'd think it would then make that skill more valuable due to its scarcity.

GL

That's why HR hitters are typically paid a lot more money than singles hitters. But no one says you can only be one or the other.

gonelong
08-05-2007, 02:52 PM
That's why HR hitters are typically paid a lot more money than singles hitters. But no one says you can only be one or the other.

I don't suppose Dunn has made the decision that he'd only do one any more than Hatteburg has.

I'd say guys that can do both very well are in short supply. A team such as the Reds will generally have to figure out which warts they are willing to live with in each player.

GL

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 02:56 PM
I don't suppose Dunn has made the decision that he'd only do one any more than Hatteburg has.

I'd say guys that can do both very well are in short supply. A team such as the Reds will generally have to figure out which warts they are willing to live with in each player.

GL

Not hitting 40 HRs isn't exactly a "wart". Hitting in the low .200s usually is.

gonelong
08-05-2007, 03:03 PM
Not hitting 40 HRs isn't exactly a "wart". Hitting in the low .200s usually is.

How about hitting 15 or less while playing a traditionally power position?

I happen to think that Dunn is an extremely unusual player.
GL

edabbs44
08-05-2007, 03:05 PM
How about hitting 15 or less while playing a traditionally power position?

I happen to think that Dunn is an extremely unusual player.
GL

I'm not a huge Hatteberg fan. Never was, so I have my own thoughts on him.

RANDY IN INDY
08-05-2007, 05:43 PM
I happen to think that Dunn is an extremely unusual player.

That, he is.

Jpup
08-05-2007, 07:42 PM
I'm not a huge Hatteberg fan. Never was, so I have my own thoughts on him.

it's hard to be a fan of a guy that gets on base 40% of the time. ;)

pedro
08-05-2007, 10:38 PM
I wanted to post this chart from Baseball Musing's website- and thanks to texasdave for turning me on to this site - which charts RBI Percentage(RBI-HR) with Runners On....

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/RBIPCT.py?StartDate=07%2F20%2F2001&EndDate=08%2F03%2F2007&SortField=OnRBI.RunnersOn&SortDir=desc&MinPA=2475

BTW- Jeff Conine is at 15.72 for his career.

NJReds
08-07-2007, 10:01 AM
Another off-day Dunn story from Fay. I think the headline (not Fay's fault) is a little misleading. Dunn's just saying that he'd like to know but that he understands that there's probably not a decision at this time. The headline conveys a little more frustration then it seems is really there.

Nothing new here, really. Interesting quote from Mackanin.



Dunn: What's the deal?
Player's option 'not on my plate now,' GM says

BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM

Adam Dunn would like to know.

Dunn's future with the Reds is the subject of daily speculation. Will the Reds trade him? Will they pick up his option for next season?

"I'd like to know sometimes what's the deal," he said. "I know they probably don't have the answer. But I'd like to see where their mind is. I don't know what they're thinking."

The Reds tried to trade Dunn before July's trade deadline approached. But his contract lessened Dunn's value: a trade would have voided next year's $13 million club option. So any club that traded for Dunn would have only had him through October unless they were able to negotiate a longer deal.

The talk now is that the Reds will either trade Dunn in the offseason, or not pick up his option and allow him to leave the team as a free agent. In that case, the club would get draft picks for him.

General manager Wayne Krivsky said he didn't know when the club would decide on Dunn's option.

"It's not on my plate right now," Krivsky said. "Because I don't have to make a decision."

Dunn is 27 years old. He's averaged 42 home runs, 98 RBI, 103 runs and 111 walks the last three years. And he's missed a total of five games in the past three years.

That doesn't sound like the type of player a club would want to lose.

"Very often, you concentrate on what a guy can't do, instead of what he can do," Reds manager Pete Mackanin said. "I don't know why it's that way in baseball. But no one is ever completely satisfied."

Dunn's negatives - he's a below-average fielder and has a career average of .221 with runners in scoring position - are reasons to trade him.

Baseball's economics also play a role. Dunn will make $13 million next year if the club picks up the option.

The outfielder will probably never say publicly that he wants out. But the constant talk has to wear on him.

Both local newspaper columnists have called for the club to trade him. Dunn said his mother won't listen to games that Marty Brennaman, Thom Brennaman or Jeff Brantley broadcast.

But there are also fans who love Dunn. They point to Dunn's .363 on-base percentage and his .555 slugging average. That adds up to a .918 on-base plus slugging - the best on the team. OPS is considered by many baseball junkies as the best indicator of offensive production.

Dunn insists he doesn't pay attention to the speculation about his future.

"There's nothing I can do about it," he said, "so why would I?"

Dunn said in spring training that he was embarrassed by his 2006 season, and vowed to improve.

He has. Dunn's batting average is .262; he hit .234 last year.

He hit 40 home runs and drove in 92 runs last year; he's on pace this year to hit 45 home runs and drive in 106 runs.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2007, 10:17 AM
Dunn's a lightening rod. If the club were 64-47 instead of 47-64, Dunn would be a star with his statistics. He's not the worst left fielder in baseball and his 73 RBIs put him on a pace to drive in over 100 runs this year. His OBP is supurb so such a power hitter.

He's expensive, as he should be. Guys who hit 40 homes and drive in 100 runs are not only rare, but not cheap. And yet some dream for Norris Hopper or unproven rookies to man his position.

If Dunn made a lot less money, he wouldn't have all of this thrown at him. But guys like Dunn will make that kind of money and as we've seen with Junior and others, making a lot of money is not very popular.

Chip R
08-07-2007, 10:18 AM
The talk now is that the Reds will either trade Dunn in the offseason, or not pick up his option and allow him to leave the team as a free agent. In that case, the club would get draft picks for him.


Doesn't Dunn have a no-trade clause in his deal till June 15 if his option is picked up?

BRM
08-07-2007, 10:34 AM
Doesn't Dunn have a no-trade clause in his deal till June 15 if his option is picked up?

Yes he does. Maybe John assumes Dunn would waive it for the right deal.

Roy Tucker
08-07-2007, 10:37 AM
General manager Wayne Krivsky said he didn't know when the club would decide on Dunn's option.

"It's not on my plate right now," Krivsky said. "Because I don't have to make a decision."

However, I would imagine WK has a pretty good idea as to what he's going to do about Dunn.

It just that Krivsky plays his cards very close to the vest and isn't going to share right now just because Fay is looking for a story on a slow day.

BRM
08-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Apparently the Cubs are now looking for an outfielder with Soriano out for a month. Dunn and Conine are listed as being on the radar.

From MLBTradeRumors.



Multiple readers have emailed me about a radio report on WSCR 670 The Score out of Chicago today. According to the report, the Cubs are considering multiple trade possibilities to fill the monthlog gap left by Alfonso Soriano's quad injury. On the radar: Craig Monroe, Matt Stairs, Jeff Conine, and Adam Dunn. Additionally, Cubs GM Jim Hendry came out and said today that he's working the phones to find some help.

Contract situations of each player:

Monroe - $1.5MM left in '07, should earn $5MM+ in '08 before reaching free agency
Stairs - $267K left in '07, free agent after season
Conine - $630K left in '07, free agent after season
Dunn - $3.3MM left in '07, free agent after season if traded

Monroe is the right-handed Jacque Jones, contract situation and all. He'd be a poor and mildly expensive addition. He'd probably clear waivers.

Stairs is doing what he does best, mashing righties. He's having his best season since 2003. He's not earning much and has no '08 commitment. He played for the Cubs in '01 and did a decent job. The problem? He might be claimed off waivers before he gets to the Cubs. Jim Hendry really should've made this deal in July. Every AL team will have a crack at him first on waivers. Plus the Jays might fancy themselves contenders at six games out of the wild card.

Conine is on the last leg of his career and doesn't really offer anything Matt Murton doesn't. I don't really see the point but this pickup seems most likely.

Dunn is the most intriguing and also by far the least likely option here. The Cubs would have to give up some good players and pay out a decent chunk of salary for less than two months of Dunn. They'd also have to do something ugly like put him in right field when Soriano comes back. I don't see this happening.

Ltlabner
08-07-2007, 11:30 AM
Conine for Murton straight up....I'd take that in a heart beat. Not sure the Cubs would do this, but Murton is one of a list of their OF guys so he's somewhat expendable. I say that not knowing anything about the Cubs system or how they value Murton so I may be in outerspace on that one.

BRM
08-07-2007, 12:22 PM
Here is another interesting quote from Mackanin in that article NJReds posted.



"He brings a lot to the table," Mackanin said. "He's a major threat. I guarantee you when pitchers see him come to the plate they're afraid of the type of thing that happened (Saturday)."

Saturday, Dunn hit a two-run home run in the 10th inning to lift the Reds to a 9-8 victory.

"You don't want to make a mistake to him because he can hit the ball out of any part of the ballpark," Mackanin said. "That's a real bonus to have him on any team.

"Sure, he has faults. He's not the best defender in the world. He goes through streaks where he strikes out more than you want to see. But there aren't many players that you don't have criticism of some aspect of their game."

BRM
08-07-2007, 02:29 PM
Nothing really new here but it's the latest on MLBTradeRumors. They think he may be looking at a deal similar to Carlos Lee's once he's a free agent.



The Reds plan to either exercise Adam Dunn's option and then trade him in the offseason, or else just not exercise the option. Dunn might command a Carlos Lee-sized free agent deal. One added wrinkle: Dunn would gain full no-trade protection until June 15th if the Reds pick up the option.

RANDY IN INDY
08-07-2007, 03:23 PM
And yet some dream for Norris Hopper or unproven rookies to man his position.

Someone has to do a poll for this one, and all those that vote for Hopper have to fess up.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 03:26 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070807/SPT04/708070381/


May I suggest it become a priority? It could be the most important decision he's had to make...


Unless of coure, Wayne isn't going to be here to make it...

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2007, 03:32 PM
Someone has to do a poll for this one, and all those that vote for Hopper have to fess up.

I bet if a poll was done, the folks who keep pretending that an ungodly amount of people prefer Hopper to Dunn would finally find out different and get off the kick.

RANDY IN INDY
08-07-2007, 03:34 PM
I bet if a poll was done, the folks who keep pretending that an ungodly amount of people prefer Hopper to Dunn would finally find out different and get off the kick.

Ya' think?;)

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 03:34 PM
Someone has to do a poll for this one, and all those that vote for Hopper have to fess up.

Is Marty a RZer? :D

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2007, 03:38 PM
Good find Matt!

LF's in the Central, by the #'s. Boy that Duncan sure is a bargain!


Name Club Avg HR RBI OBP Slug. OPS Salary
Adam Dunn Reds .262 30 73 .363 .551 .918 $10.5 million
Alfonso Soriano Cubs .297 18 42 .336 .511 .848 $10 million
Carlos Lee Astros .298 23 90 .353 .531 .883 $11.5 million
Geoff Jenkins Brewers .269 14 45 .341 .483 .824 $7.3 million
Jason Bay Pirates .260 17 71 .335 .440 .775 $3.5 million
Chris Duncan Cards .285 20 59 .376 .540 .920 $400,000

Cyclone792
08-07-2007, 03:43 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070807/SPT04/708070381/


May I suggest it become a priority? It could be the most important decision he's had to make...

Of course it's not a priority. If it involves 2008, then Krivsky probably isn't worried about it, just like he wasn't worried about 2007 last season.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2006/12/04/ddn120506reds.html


"Wayne came to me in the spring and said he could get (pitcher) Bronson Arroyo for an outfielder — Wily Mo Pena, Adam Dunn or Austin Kearns," said Barton. "Turns out Boston wanted Wily Mo, and that was fine because we had an extra outfielder."

But when Krivsky said he was trading another outfielder, Kearns, and a 25-year-old All-Star shortstop (Lopez) for an old shortstop (Clayton) and a couple of pitchers, "I told him I didn't like the deal and asked who was going to play shortstop next year, and he told me, 'I'm not worried about next year.'"

Wayne wasn't worried about 2007 last season, and we see how well that's working out. Now he's not worried about Adam Dunn's 2008 option, and I'm betting that doesn't work out well either.

Looks like Larry Barton Jr. may have been right all along.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 04:14 PM
General manager Wayne Krivsky said he didn't know when the club would decide on Dunn's option.

"It's not on my plate right now," Krivsky said. "Because I don't have to make a decision."
Other people he didn't have to make a decision on included Castro, Coffey, Freel, and Hatteberg, all of whom were given extensions while the Reds still controlled their rights.

So "don't need to yet" hasn't stopped him from doing it before.

Ron Madden
08-08-2007, 02:45 AM
The problem Is Not that Wayne fails to find a solution for the many problems.

The problem Is that Wayne can't identify the problems.

(JMHO but have at it.)