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Eric_Davis
08-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Three players have distinguished themselves so far from the Class of 2006:

RP Josh Roenicke, 10th round
RP Derrick Lutz, 19th round
LF Daniel Dorn, 32nd round

All three of these players are on the same fast track that Jay Bruce is on from the 2005 Class, as they all look to make their Major League debuts exactly one year following Bruce.

There's already a good thread about Dorn in this Minor League section of REDSZONE (Dorn promoted to...).

All other position players from that draft are 2 levels below Dorn, other than 2 players, who have 11 and 62 at-bats respectively. The one with 62 at-bats is doing nothing special, yet at Low-A, where Dorn already hit at an OPS of over .800 with over 300 at-bats. Spending the rest of this year at AA, and hopefully splitting next year between AA and AAA will earn him a promotion to the Majors where he'll be mature enough having already spent a few years maturing as a College All-American.

If any starter had shown any real success at High-A, even just holding their own at that level, then they'd be listed here, but none have reached that plateau, yet. Two relief pitchers, though, as deemed by the REDS' organization, are excelling well enough to have earned their promotions to AA Chattanooga 10 days before Dorn. So far, both are dominating with about 10 appearances each.

No other relief pitcher is doing well from this class at High-A Sarasota.

It doesn't matter what round a guy is picked in. The REDS have right now three players on the fast track to the bigs from the 2006 Class, and none of them seems to have been rushed.

ochoa30
08-05-2007, 04:20 PM
How the heck could dorn fall so far in the draft? He hit pretty well in college. What kind of player do you think he could be in the majors?

texasdave
08-05-2007, 04:43 PM
I would include Daryl Thompson on that list. I know he wasn't in the Reds' 2006 Minor League Draft; but he was acquired right around that time. And he was in the very low minors. So, for all intents and purposes, he was a 2006 draftee, IMO.

Superdude
08-05-2007, 04:46 PM
Two relief pitchers, though, as deemed by the REDS' organization, are excelling well enough to have earned their promotions to AA Chattanooga 10 days before Dorn. So far, both are dominating with about 10 appearances each.

Are you counting Lutz as one of the two? He started the year in Chattanooga and was sent down to Sarasota.


All other position players from that draft are 2 levels below Dorn, other than 2 players, who have 11 and 62 at-bats respectively.

Valaika was also in the draft and has a decent amount of at bats in Sarasota.

Eric_Davis
08-05-2007, 05:01 PM
Are you counting Lutz as one of the two? He started the year in Chattanooga and was sent down to Sarasota.




Valaika was also in the draft and has a decent amount of at bats in Sarasota.


Yes, Derrick Lutz and Josh Roenicke.

My eyes missed Valaika, so, yes, add him making it 4 players at the Head of the 2006 class even if Valaika does have a .635 OPS at Sarasota. He still gets to spend the rest of the year there and begin it there next year with hopes that he splits 2008 between AA and AAA with eyes on the Majors sometime in 2009.

Derrick Lutz could use a "Prospect Profile" if anyone gets to see him in person and comment on what they see.

Mario-Rijo
08-05-2007, 06:44 PM
Sean Watson is also there and although hasn't found his groove just yet he is doing slightly better.

He has 3 games where he has given up more than 3 ER's, 2 of those were his 1st 2 starts and only 1 since. Of course his IP haven't been consistent yet either, but he seems to making some headway with 8 starts so far.

Eric_Davis
08-05-2007, 07:04 PM
Sean Watson is also there and although hasn't found his groove just yet he is doing slightly better.

He has 3 games where he has given up more than 3 ER's, 2 of those were his 1st 2 starts and only 1 since. Of course his IP haven't been consistent yet either, but he seems to making some headway with 8 starts so far.

I didn't count him because 8 starts with an ERA of 7 in Sarasota doesn't get the teacher's attention. His level is equal at this point to those at Dayton until he proves otherwise. He's doing it today.

As you say, he was giving up mulitple runs in all of his starts but one. At the end of the year, he could definitely join the list, but he's got to pitch a lot better.

tbball10
08-06-2007, 12:29 AM
watson, valaika, turner, heisey all have had solid seasons. of course, stubbs has a lot of ability. also, some of the pitchers like jordan smith, travis webb, and jamie arneson are guys to watch.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 01:40 AM
To me, Josh Roenicke is the number one "fast track" player from last year's draft. He is already at AA, is doing great, will be in the Reds bullpen sometime next year if he keeps it up. I think he is definitely one of the Reds top 10 prospects right now since he is a hard throwing reliever and is being successful at every level.

Dorn deserves mention too. He is likely a platoon guy, and is just breaking in at AA, but certainly did well at High A after skipping a level. Call him a "fast track" guy too.

Lutz has a WHIP of over 1.4 at High A ball. Valaika isn't hitting at High A. Watson is having some trouble breaking in at High A. They all are good prospects, but I don't think you can say they have broken through at this point.

In terms of showing ability at advanced levels, the two best guys so far are Roenicke and Dorn.

camisadelgolf
08-06-2007, 02:07 AM
I don't know if Josh Roenicke deserves the "fast track" title since he's 25 years old and has spent very little time in AA.

dougdirt
08-06-2007, 03:41 AM
KC61, I would be interested in seeing your top 10 prospects if a 25 year old reliever is definately in your top 10. Relief pitching is only so valuable.... maybe I undervalue relievers, but I can't see a reliever with anything less than complete domination and 2 plus pitches all while being young for a league being a true prospect.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 01:27 PM
KC61, I would be interested in seeing your top 10 prospects if a 25 year old reliever is definately in your top 10. Relief pitching is only so valuable.... maybe I undervalue relievers, but I can't see a reliever with anything less than complete domination and 2 plus pitches all while being young for a league being a true prospect.

Roenicke would be my number 5 prospect after the 4 big guns in AAA. In 12 innings of AA ball, he has a 1.5 ERA and has 14 strikeouts and 2 walks. He played four years of college so he is a year older than usual, but this guy has succeeded at every level. He is a big pitcher, not one of the guys with a suspect frame. He throws hard.

You can put A ball prospects ahead of him, but I don't. Roenicke has a real, meaningful chance of helping the major league team in a big way. Soon. Not someone who is three years away, if he stays healthy, if this, if that. Roenicke is real and has performed superbly. (He had 41 Ks in 27 innings at Sarasota before being promoted.)

Yes, he is a reliever. Anyone who has watched the Reds this year shouldn't undervalue top relief prospects.

dougdirt
08-06-2007, 01:38 PM
Yes, he is a reliever. Anyone who has watched the Reds this year shouldn't undervalue top relief prospects.

Or is it becuase the Reds bullpen sucks that some people overvalue quality relief? Relief pitching is fine and dandy and all, but unless you are a K-rod, Gagne or Papelbon type even a normal everyday player is much more valuable.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 01:50 PM
I wouldn't overvalue relief pitchers, but I wouldn't undervalue them either. The mantra that relievers can't be top prospects makes no sense to me.

Compare the odds of Travis Wood helping the Reds materially with the odds that Roenicke will. Wood is several years away, has had injury issues, hasn't yet succeeded at High A ball. Roenicke has no injury issues, did well at High A, and is doing well at Chatanooga.
Wood is younger, so he has more time to succeed. But Roenicke doesn't seem to need the time, he is almost ready to go. (I like Wood; he'd be in my top ten also.)

As for everyday players, there is nobody in the Reds lower minor leagues who is such a great prospect as to rank ahead of Roenicke. Certainly Stubbs isn't. Valaika can't break through at High A. Mesoraca is in low Rookie ball hitting .244, certainly way premature to annoint him. The third baseman at Dayton looks good, but has slowed down some and has a long, long way to go.

Maybe, arguably, Todd Frazier, who I really like. He'd be close to Roenicke in my rankings, but I still take the AA ball guy over the Billings guy right now.

In considering prospects, IMO one needs to focus not only on ceiling but on likelihood of ever getting to the majors and succeeding there. Roenicke, to me, is a virtual lock (barring unforeseen injury) to help the Reds as a reliever, perhaps even a closer. Some of the "younger" prospects in A-ball and Rookie ball, well maybe yes, maybe no.

camisadelgolf
08-06-2007, 02:24 PM
I think Roenicke is a legitimate prospect and deserves more press. I'd rate him around where Daryl Thompson or Alex Smit is on my list of prospects.

dougdirt
08-06-2007, 03:04 PM
I wouldn't overvalue relief pitchers, but I wouldn't undervalue them either. The mantra that relievers can't be top prospects makes no sense to me.
They can be, but they better bring 95 MPH heat, be young and have another plus out pitch.



Compare the odds of Travis Wood helping the Reds materially with the odds that Roenicke will. Wood is several years away, has had injury issues, hasn't yet succeeded at High A ball. Roenicke has no injury issues, did well at High A, and is doing well at Chatanooga.
Wood is younger, so he has more time to succeed. But Roenicke doesn't seem to need the time, he is almost ready to go. (I like Wood; he'd be in my top ten also.)
Roenicke is 25 and 1 level ahead of Travis Wood who is 20. Wood is a lefty with a change up that is rated as the best change up in the minor leagues by some sources. If he can stay healthy, I would say his chances are much greater than Roenickes to help out the Reds in the long run.


As for everyday players, there is nobody in the Reds lower minor leagues who is such a great prospect as to rank ahead of Roenicke. Certainly Stubbs isn't. Valaika can't break through at High A. Mesoraca is in low Rookie ball hitting .244, certainly way premature to annoint him. The third baseman at Dayton looks good, but has slowed down some and has a long, long way to go.
I disagree. I would rank Stubbs, Valaika, Mesoraco and Francisco all above Roenicke. Prospects, in my mind are a mix of where you are, what youve done and what your cieling can be mixed in with age relative to league. Roenicke is already old for a league he just reached 3 weeks ago. While he has been very good, his upside still isnt that of Stubbs, Valaika, Mesoraco or Francisco.



Maybe, arguably, Todd Frazier, who I really like. He'd be close to Roenicke in my rankings, but I still take the AA ball guy over the Billings guy right now.
I think this is where we differ in how we evaluate prospects. You tend to look at a guys closeness a lot more than their cieling.



In considering prospects, IMO one needs to focus not only on ceiling but on likelihood of ever getting to the majors and succeeding there. Roenicke, to me, is a virtual lock (barring unforeseen injury) to help the Reds as a reliever, perhaps even a closer. Some of the "younger" prospects in A-ball and Rookie ball, well maybe yes, maybe no.

I would say Roenicke is as much of a lock as Drew Stubbs is. In my mind, Stubbs is an absolute lock to make the majors. With his defense and on base skills, he will play somewhere one day.

IslandRed
08-06-2007, 03:27 PM
It's just my opinion, but I think Josh Roenicke's age is almost totally irrelevant in the discussion of what kind of pitcher he can be. It's not just because pitchers develop in a less predictable way than position players; it's because his path to this point is totally off the wall. He was a position player in college, and only pitched his senior year, and part-time at that. Obviously, at 25, he has an edge in many forms of maturity over a raw high-schooler, but as a pitcher, he is extremely young. Coming into this season, he'd thrown fewer than 40 innings as a collegian and a pro combined. He's got a lot to learn, a lot to learn with, and a fresh arm. I don't think we can just do the standard "eh, he's old for the level" dismissal with this guy.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 03:28 PM
I would say Roenicke is as much of a lock as Drew Stubbs is. In my mind, Stubbs is an absolute lock to make the majors. With his defense and on base skills, he will play somewhere one day.

This summarizes our disagreement. I see Roenicke as a guy succeeding at AA and Stubbs as an outfielder struggling at low A ball. And Roenicke is a pitcher, which today is the key position in baseball. I just think Roenicke is the better prospect right now.

camisadelgolf
08-06-2007, 03:29 PM
Good point, IslandRed. I also want to make a prediction and say that Roenicke will have a more successful career than Francisco.

dougdirt
08-06-2007, 03:34 PM
This summarizes our disagreement. I see Roenicke as a guy succeeding at AA and Stubbs as an outfielder struggling at low A ball. And Roenicke is a pitcher, which today is the key position in baseball. I just think Roenicke is the better prospect right now.

Roenicke is a relief pitcher. There is a large difference between the value of a relief pitcher and the value of a starting pitcher.

As for Stubbs, he is struggling at times, but other times he shows what the Reds drafted him for. He has 2 months so far with very good OPS's and then 2 with not so good OPS's.

Roenicke is young for a pitcher in terms of being a pitcher, so I will give you that. Still, even as a pitcher I would rank him behind Bailey, Cueto, Watson, Wood and Fisher for sure. Lecure is questionable. But at best he is the Reds 6th best pitching prospect in my mind.

camisadelgolf
08-06-2007, 03:42 PM
Don't forget about the newly-acquired Matt Maloney.

Although starters are more valuable, I think relievers have a higher chance of actually being productive in the Major Leagues, which is why I tend to not penalize them too much when it comes to ranking prospects.

Superdude
08-06-2007, 03:43 PM
I don't think we can just do the standard "eh, he's old for the level" dismissal with this guy.

Age can be overrated with prospects sometimes in my opinion. Let's say you've got two players of absolute equal ability and projection, but one reaches the majors at 25 and one at 22. Baseball America is going to love the 22 year old like a long lost dog, even though they are equal players. That's the reason Ryan Howard was the 27th best prospect in baseball according to Baseball America going into 2005 despite hitting 48 homers the previous year. As long as the guy has enough ability and isn't just out-smarting raw competition, he should get some prospect attention. Roenike certainly has the stuff to make it.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 04:03 PM
According to BA last year, Roenicke is 6'3", 195, hits 95 with his fastball. (That was before he ever threw a pitch in pro ball.) He had 42 Ks in 27 innings at High A with 16 saves. Now, in AA, he has made a seamless transition and has 14 Ks, 2 BBs in 12 innings with 3 saves and a 1.50 ERA. Small sample size at AA, I know. He has moved up from GCL to Billings to Sarasota to Chatanooga in one year.

On a prospects list, I would take a guy like this over Watson, Wood, and Fisher.

As for Stubbs, I've read about his good months and bad months. Bottom line is that right now he is overall hitting .251 with a .739 OBP in low A ball. He is in a league that should not be that much of a challenge for him. Guys like Valaika and Turner, supposedly far lesser prospects than Stubbs, had far less trouble with the Midwest League. Danny Dorn skipped that league altogether.

I just think that performance in leagues close to the majors is too often overlooked on these lists. Reasonable people can disagree.

dougdirt
08-06-2007, 04:07 PM
I guess I am more waiting to hear about Roenickes offspeed stuff and where it is at.

As for Stubbs compared to Valaika, Turner or Dorn I think the thing is that they are viewed as near their cieling already, while Stubbs is a lot more raw right now and is nowhere near his cieling at this point.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 04:13 PM
I guess I am more waiting to hear about Roenickes offspeed stuff and where it is at.

As for Stubbs compared to Valaika, Turner or Dorn I think the thing is that they are viewed as near their cieling already, while Stubbs is a lot more raw right now and is nowhere near his cieling at this point.

I hope you are right. I had visions of Mickey Mantle when the Reds drafted Stubbs. At minimum, I would like to see a platoon of Dickerson and Stubbs in center some day, covering half the outfield and hopefully contributing offensively.

HokieRed
08-06-2007, 05:54 PM
I'd also like to know more about Roenicke's off-speed stuff and his command. There's a very large difference between AA and the major leagues, especially for guys whose pitch repertoire is so limited that they were never given a shot at starting in the minor leagues. I've watched a lot of minor league baseball, and one of the differences is that the hitters will get hits off the mistakes but not knock them out of the ballpark. Not everybody in the minor leagues can hit a 95 MPH fastball, even if it's over the middle of the plate. In the major leagues, everybody can hit a 95 MPH fastball and if you make a mistake with it, the game has been changed--three run dinger. Classic example of a guy whose minore league numbers would make you think he was going to be a lights-out closer--Joe Valentine. I like what I see of Roenicke, but the projection to the majors is very unclear, IMHO.

camisadelgolf
08-06-2007, 06:38 PM
I think Joe Valentine is a fair comparison, but I always saw Valentine as a "probably not", and I see Roenicke as a "maybe", if that makes sense.

HokieRed
08-06-2007, 10:53 PM
My point about Valentine was based on his years in A, A+, and AA ball, when he was, by the way, only 21-22. They're fantastic. During those years, I think we'd have all been saying this is a strong "probably." I hope Roenicke's the real thing and maybe he is, but it would be good to know more about what he's got that's offspeed because he's surely going to need that to keep moving up. I always worry a little about guys who are never tried as starters. Starters are so much more valuable that if a guy has command of a couple of pitches organizations are almost always going to try him there first.

Kc61
08-06-2007, 11:58 PM
My point about Valentine was based on his years in A, A+, and AA ball, when he was, by the way, only 21-22. They're fantastic. During those years, I think we'd have all been saying this is a strong "probably." I hope Roenicke's the real thing and maybe he is, but it would be good to know more about what he's got that's offspeed because he's surely going to need that to keep moving up. I always worry a little about guys who are never tried as starters. Starters are so much more valuable that if a guy has command of a couple of pitches organizations are almost always going to try him there first.

Not all teams think this way anymore. Bullpens have become so important that relievers are groomed today. There's nothing like a top flight starter, but teams are savvy enough to know that relievers are also key and sometimes a good arm should be in the pen.

Roenicke started late, so there wasn't a lot of time to let him begin as a starter.

Amazing that suddenly everyone is worried about off speed pitches. For years on RedsZone everyone is wondering where the hard throwers are in the Reds chain. Suddenly the issue is Roenicke's off speed pitch.

The Reds don't usually advance minor leaguers this fast. They've only done it with their best prospects. They know they have a quality reliever in Roenicke.

HokieRed
08-07-2007, 12:26 AM
The fact teams groom relievers doesn't change what I said. They groom guys who don't have command of enough different pitchers to be starters. Of course the guys in the bullpen have good arms; the issue is how many pitches they have command of. I'm still going to insist we need to know more about Roenicke's off-speed stuff. To take another example, command was the issue with one reliever the Reds really pushed fast--Ryan Wagner. He had tremendous movement on his slider but he couldn't throw it for strikes, and he didn't have quite enough gas, command, or movement on his fastball. A college hitter might have seen Wagner once or twice a year and it takes a lot of discipline to lay off that slider. But it didn't take major league hitters very long to figure that out. The strategy became make him throw the slider for strikes--which he often couldn't do--then sit on the mediocre fastball. We know the result.

Eric_Davis
08-07-2007, 04:31 PM
I don't know if Josh Roenicke deserves the "fast track" title since he's 25 years old and has spent very little time in AA.

Absolutely. He wasn't drafted until 2006, meaning that he's had only 13 months of Pro Ball. To be at AA already after just 13 months is as fast a track as you can get. What's the age of 25 have to do with it? 361 days from now he will still be 25 and probably in AAA.

Eric_Davis
08-07-2007, 07:04 PM
KC61, I would be interested in seeing your top 10 prospects if a 25 year old reliever is definately in your top 10. Relief pitching is only so valuable.... maybe I undervalue relievers, but I can't see a reliever with anything less than complete domination and 2 plus pitches all while being young for a league being a true prospect.


Doug, relief pitching is as valuable as any position player as far as General Mangers are concerned, though I agree with you. Starters rarely go past 6 innings any more. The price for quality relief help is in the Millions and Millions per year. To get quality relief for the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings, a club has to spend as much as a SS, 2B, and one starting outfielder combined.
Here is the 2007 salaries (with incentives, which many of these teams will have to pay out since they are doing so well...Gagne was guaranteed incentives totaling $2.5M which Boston is responsible for paying all but $400K) of the top 4 relievers of the teams that would be in the playoffs if they started today:

...and if you don't want to measure the value of a quality reliever by market value in dollars, then measure it by market value in body-for-body. Even with Gagne becoming a free-agent at the end of the year and knowing that he will command a high price tag with Scott Boras as his agent, they felt he was worth in trade the three bodies of LHP Kason Gabbard (25-year old rookie in the Majors with a 6.94 H/9 ration, a 0.58 HR/9 ratio in 47 Inn), outfielder David Murphy (25 years old, 1st Round (#17) draft pick in 2003, 718 at-bats in AAA the last 2 years with a .271 AVG and .350 OBP in AAA, doesn't strike out much), and outfielder Engel Beltre (17-year old signed this year out of the Dominican Republic).

Boston Red Sox:

Jonathan Papelbon: $.4255M + $.025M ($25K) for his All-Star pick
Eric Gagne: $4M(of $12M) + 2.1M guar. incentives, Salary is Pro-rated, you can even tack on another $50K because he's guaranteed to get a Hotel Suite every day on the road
Javier Lopez: $.4025M
Hideki Okijima: $1.25M + $.05M ($50K) for his AS pick + $.25M projected additional incentives plus $50K signing bonus plus 3 round trip tickets to Japan

Boston Red Sox 2007 Total: $9.058M

This situation fluctuates througout the year just as the REDS situation when they released Cormier and is still paying him. Timlin is earning $2.8M for decent work, but he's clearly outclassed by the waiver-wire pickup from Colorado, Javier Lopez, and his 2.87 ERA. You have to wonder why Colorado released him, but strong second-halves are often ignored by clubs (and fans). In the last 12 months, Javier Lopez has given up only 1 HR in 56 games with opponents hitting at a .213/.325/.301 clip against him with a BAbip of .255. In his last 2 weeks, he's given up one single vs 13 plate appearances, while Gagne has given up a run in each of his first two appearances for the Red Sox.

Cleveland Indians:

Joe Borowski: $4.25M + projected $1.075M of incentives
Rafael Betancourt: $.84M
Aaron Fultz: $1.65M + projected $.075M ($75K) of incentives
Tom Mastny: $.3815M

Cleveland Indians 2007 Total: $7.9115M

Anaheim Angels:

Francisco Rodriguez: $7M + $.05M for AS pick
Justin Speier: $4.25M
Scot Shields: $3.4M
Darren Oliver: $1.75M

Anaheim Angels 2007 Totals: $16.45M

Detroit Tigers:

Todd Jones: $4.81M
Fernando Rodney: $1M + possible unknown incentives
Bobby Seay: $.45M

I accidentally hit "submit reply", but I think I've done enough to indicate that there is a premium price placed on quality relievers. Hoffman and company in San Diego, Putz and company in Seattle, Wagner and company in New York, and Rivera and Company in the other New York, and all that the Brewers paid for to upgrade their relievers in Cordero, Linebrink, Turnbow, and Wise. Atlanta paid a lot for their relievers, also, and had Smoltz heading it for a couple of years. A lot of the Cardinals success has been due to a strong bullpen, although it's obvious you have to have everything, but you can't win without a strong bullpen, as the '95 Mariners were a perfect example....Top-tier Starters and Top-Tier lineup, and crappy bullpen.

dougdirt
08-07-2007, 07:24 PM
Relief pitchers are nowhere near on the same plane as a regular every day player. Best reliever in baseball is who? Would you take them over Pujols? How about Arod? How about Vlad? Ichiro? How about Jake Peavy? Johan Santana? Justin Verlander?

Kc61
08-07-2007, 07:41 PM
Relief pitchers are nowhere near on the same plane as a regular every day player. Best reliever in baseball is who? Would you take them over Pujols? How about Arod? How about Vlad? Ichiro? How about Jake Peavy? Johan Santana? Justin Verlander?


In his prime, was Mariano Rivera as valuable as A Rod or Pujois? I would say yes.

dougdirt
08-07-2007, 07:44 PM
In his prime, was Mariano Rivera as valuable as A Rod or Pujois? I would say yes.

Not a chance.

Eric_Davis
08-07-2007, 08:26 PM
Relief pitchers are nowhere near on the same plane as a regular every day player. Best reliever in baseball is who? Would you take them over Pujols? How about Arod? How about Vlad? Ichiro? How about Jake Peavy? Johan Santana? Justin Verlander?

Doug, I never said 3rd basemen (Arod). I never said 1st Baseman (Pujols). I never said starters (Peavy, Santana, Verlander). I said, "General Managers pay the same for their 7th, 8th, and 9th innings guys as they do for their 2nd, SS, and one starting outfielder combined.

dougdirt
08-07-2007, 09:39 PM
Doug, I never said 3rd basemen (Arod). I never said 1st Baseman (Pujols). I never said starters (Peavy, Santana, Verlander). I said, "General Managers pay the same for their 7th, 8th, and 9th innings guys as they do for their 2nd, SS, and one starting outfielder combined.

You said, and I am now quoting
Doug, relief pitching is as valuable as any position player as far as General Mangers are concerned, though I agree with you.

There is no way any GM in baseball values any relief pitcher anywhere near the same page as Arod, Pujols or even a lesser type player like Vlad or David Wright.

Kc61
08-07-2007, 09:56 PM
You said, and I am now quoting

There is no way any GM in baseball values any relief pitcher anywhere near the same page as Arod, Pujols or even a lesser type player like Vlad or David Wright.

Would you concede that 3 top relievers can be the most valuable aspect of a team? Let's say their names are Charlton, Dibble, and Myers. Can those three players together be the key element in a team winning a championship? As important as any other element of a championship team?

dougdirt
08-07-2007, 10:29 PM
Would you concede that 3 top relievers can be the most valuable aspect of a team? Let's say their names are Charlton, Dibble, and Myers. Can those three players together be the key element in a team winning a championship? As important as any other element of a championship team?

Sure they can combined be a great element of a winning team. Individually though, they are nowhere near as valuable as probably half the players that start every day on their own team.... and probably less valuable than at least 2 starters (pitchers) on most teams.

Eric_Davis
08-07-2007, 10:29 PM
You said, and I am now quoting

There is no way any GM in baseball values any relief pitcher anywhere near the same page as Arod, Pujols or even a lesser type player like Vlad or David Wright.


I said two things in the same paragrph. Sorry about that. I did mean to say that they value their 7th, 8th and 9th inning guys as equally important as their 2nd Baseman, SS, and one starting OF combined.

That combination clearly isn't as valuable as a 3rd Baseman, 1st Baseman or a team's top-two outfielders, or your top-three starters.