PDA

View Full Version : Today's baffling roster moves



Pages : 1 [2]

BRM
08-08-2007, 02:04 PM
2007 you mean :thumbup:

We're going for it this year too? Sweet!

Caveat Emperor
08-08-2007, 02:07 PM
....but I just can't fathom why the Reds aren't rebuilding.

Thats a real easy one to answer.

They aren't rebuilding because they're still in this to make money and nothing empties the ballpark out faster than a team running up the white flag and telling the fans "it isn't going to be good for a while."

Its why they won't rebuild this offseason either -- they've got season ticket packages to sell.

puca
08-08-2007, 02:44 PM
And I guess its why they will stink for the next 10 years.

Look, the A's (and other teams) manage to contend while they cycle through the roster. It is not an impossible task. It just takes a GM that thinks beyond next week. The A's have lost plenty of talent. Some they trade, some they let walk. But the decisions are made based on both the now and the future. I don't see that type of forethought going into anything the Reds do.

Replacing a player like Hatteberg with a player like Votto would not cause the fans to stay away in droves. Releasing Mike Stanton or demoting Coffey wouldn't cost 2008 ticket sales.

westofyou
08-08-2007, 02:47 PM
The A's had a decade of Sandy Alderson prior to Beane showing up, the Reds had a Dog, a Muppet and a Snake Oil salesman.

redsmetz
08-08-2007, 02:49 PM
And I guess its why they will stink for the next 10 years.

Look, the A's (and other teams) manage to contend while they cycle through the roster. It is not an impossible task. It just takes a GM that thinks beyond next week. The A's have lost plenty of talent. Some they trade, some they let walk. But the decisions are made based on both the now and the future. I don't see that type of forethought going into anything the Reds do.

Replacing a player like Hatteberg with a player like Votto would not cause the fans to stay away in droves. Releasing Mike Stanton or demoting Coffey wouldn't cost 2008 ticket sales.

But this has been a long run of stinking - it's not unique to Wayne Krivsky. Many of us have mentioned that our system has not been producing going way back to the short sightedness of Marge Schott and her view of scouts. It carried forward with the acturial viewpoints of Carl Lindner.

Will they stink for 10 years? I can't say, but I'm inclined to say 'no'. Someone here mentioned the wealth of talent we have coming up; some homegrown, some acquired through trades, waiver wire claims or minor league free agents. I don't think it will be this bleak a regularly as it has in previous years.

M2
08-08-2007, 02:58 PM
Thats a real easy one to answer.

They aren't rebuilding because they're still in this to make money and nothing empties the ballpark out faster than a team running up the white flag and telling the fans "it isn't going to be good for a while."

Its why they won't rebuild this offseason either -- they've got season ticket packages to sell.

Honestly, it would be hard for them to sell less. I sincerely doubt too many folks have been showing up at the GAB over the last three months under the delusion that the Reds have got a good ballclub.

I'd think they'd get more fans to the park by offering up the promise of watching exciting young players who'll hopefully grow into a quality ballclub. It would at least be a refreshing change from the soul-crushing grind of watching the failed attempts at competing over the past seven seasons.

Benihana
08-08-2007, 03:08 PM
Honestly, it would be hard for them to sell less. I sincerely doubt too many folks have been showing up at the GAB over the last three months under the delusion that the Reds have got a good ballclub.

I'd think they'd get more fans to the park by offering up the promise of watching exciting young players who'll hopefully grow into a quality ballclub. It would at least be a refreshing change from the soul-crushing grind of watching the failed attempts at competing over the past seven seasons.

AMEN!

RedLegSuperStar
08-08-2007, 03:34 PM
Fuel To The Fire???

Fay/Ramsey -


Louisville loses a tough one to Indianapolis…Johnny Cueto pitches well…Josh Hamilton with 2 hits in the first game of his current rehab assignment…Jay Bruce doubles again…Chattanooga was off (Professional Speakers Day)…Sarasota has their winning streak snapped at Jupiter…Dayton falls to Quad Cities…Juan Francisco belts his 17th homer…Billings finishes the sweep at Helena…Kyle Maunus with 3 hits…Mike McKennon with 2 hits – and is now batting .321…GCL Reds get swept in a doubleheader vs. GCL Pirates…Neftali Soto with a 3-run triple.

UPDATE - JORGE CANTU & SHAUN CUMBERLAND: IF Jorge Cantu and OF Shaun Cumberland (and cash) were acquired by the Reds from Tampa Bay on July 28 for RHP Calvin Medlock and LHP Brian Shackelford (and future considerations)…Cantu in 12 games for Louisville is batting .333 (15-45) with 4 doubles, 1 HR and 6 RBI…he’s hit safely in 10 of his 12 games with the Bats (.375obp, .489slg)…Cumberland has hit safely in all 7 games he’s played since joining Chattanooga on July 30 (.385, 10-26, 5rbi, 2r).

BILL BRAY: Since July 20, LHP Bill Bray has posted a 1.86 ERA (3r/2er, 9.2ip) and a .211 OBA (8-38) over 8 appearances with Louisville (16 strikeouts).

BRM
08-08-2007, 03:37 PM
The Reds already have 3 lefties in the pen. There is no room for Bill Bray. Doesn't matter that he's better than all 3 of those guys. ;)

RedsManRick
08-08-2007, 03:56 PM
Thats a real easy one to answer.

They aren't rebuilding because they're still in this to make money and nothing empties the ballpark out faster than a team running up the white flag and telling the fans "it isn't going to be good for a while."

Its why they won't rebuild this offseason either -- they've got season ticket packages to sell.

Teams don't care about what you say you're going to do. They care about what you're doing. Telling them you're trying to win, and then going out and losing 95 games while not building for the future doesn't draw in fans either.

Forgot about the PR aspect of it. Cincy fans are tired of the boy who cried wolf routine. Don't tell me you're trying to win. Just win. Build a winner and the fans will come. Build a loser, and they won't, regardless of what you're telling them.

flyer85
08-08-2007, 03:58 PM
Maybe this could just become a daily thread.

I wonder what WK has planned for tomorrow?

Red Leader
08-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Maybe this could just become a daily thread.

I wonder what WK has planned for tomorrow?

Tomorrow is activate Hamilton, demote Norris Hopper to AAA and then declare that Hamilton will be your primary PH because you want to see what you have in that new guy, Jason Ellison...

red-in-la
08-08-2007, 05:06 PM
Maybe this could just become a daily thread.

I wonder what WK has planned for tomorrow?

After all, "give us our daily thread"

Redsland
08-08-2007, 05:29 PM
The press has turned on Wayne.

Fay implies on his blog today that Bray should obviously be with the big club, and he yesterday said things like "I've got no clue why they did what they did." And that Wayne, "didn't help himself by saying what he said." And later, "I still have no earthly idea why they did what they did -- as far as Coffey and Coutlangus."

Trent spent the second inning of a game last week ripping (and I mean tearing) into Wayne for all the cloak and dagger secrecy surrounding Dumatrait's start. Then on his blog yesterday he said he was "shocked" that Coffey was still around, and then implied that "studly" Jay Bruce should be with the big club. About Wayne's explanation of the moves, Trent said, "i still think it's crap." At one point all Trent could say was, "Um... yeah. Wow. OK...." Trent bolded the "learn how to lose" part of Wayne's interview, and only the "learn how to lose" part. Trent also offered up the following: "I've got a new theory -- Wayne Krivsky is the Kyle Lohse of general managers. When he's good, he's really good (i.e., Phillips, Bronson for Wily Mo, Hamilton, Burton, Hatteberg) and when he's bad, he's really bad (i.e. today, those three weeks with Chad Moeller). Just a thought." And after all that, he actually had the fortitute to post the following: "Wayne's basically saying he's expecting to lose some games. So, you know, at least he has some pitchers that will help him lose games if they're ready to pack in a game. But hey, $1 hot dogs! It's a bad, bad statement to throw out there. I didn't think too much of the fire Krivsky sentiment until now, this is the final straw. It's the dumbest thing I've seen since Juan Castro batting for Josh Hamilton. There's no reason asking Wayne about Dunn's option, because it's not going to be his decision to make."

Hal, like Trent, got sick and tired of the "state's secrets" mentality of the front office, and wrote about it all very condescendingly in his coverage of the Dumatrait start. Last night in the second inning, Hal said that it was nice of Wayne to explain yesterday's moves, but that "he probably shouldn't have," given what Wayne ended up actually saying. In Today's DDN, Wayne's "learn to lose" line is Hal's Quote of the Day.

It took a long time for the press to turn on Dave Miley, but once they did, his stay was brief. Heck, I'm not sure they ever turned on Jerry Narron, not that it helped him any. But they are certainly sick of Wayne Krivsky. Trent goes so far on his blog as to say "wayne's ultra-tight lipped and ultra-tight ... well, other parts." Expect that kind of animosity to affect the tone of the beat writers' articles going forward, and expect the public's opinion of Wayne, which is shaped in part by these reporters' coverage, to get a whole lot worse.

Dead man walking.

pedro
08-08-2007, 05:33 PM
The press has turned on Wayne.

Fay implies on his blog today that Bray should obviously be with the big club, and he yesterday said things like "I've got no clue why they did what they did." And that Wayne, "didn't help himself by saying what he said." And later, "I still have no earthly idea why they did what they did -- as far as Coffey and Coutlangus."

Trent spent the second inning of a game last week ripping (and I mean tearing) into Wayne for all the cloak and dagger secrecy surrounding Dumatrait's start. Then on his blog yesterday he said he was "shocked" that Coffey was still around, and then implied that "studly" Jay Bruce should be with the big club. About Wayne's explanation of the moves, Trent said, "i still think it's crap." At one point all Trent could say was, "Um... yeah. Wow. OK...." Trent bolded the "learn how to lose" part of Wayne's interview, and only the "learn how to lose" part. Trent also offered up the following: "I've got a new theory -- Wayne Krivsky is the Kyle Lohse of general managers. When he's good, he's really good (i.e., Phillips, Bronson for Wily Mo, Hamilton, Burton, Hatteberg) and when he's bad, he's really bad (i.e. today, those three weeks with Chad Moeller). Just a thought." And after all that, he actually had the fortitute to post the following: "Wayne's basically saying he's expecting to lose some games. So, you know, at least he has some pitchers that will help him lose games if they're ready to pack in a game. But hey, $1 hot dogs! It's a bad, bad statement to throw out there. I didn't think too much of the fire Krivsky sentiment until now, this is the final straw. It's the dumbest thing I've seen since Juan Castro batting for Josh Hamilton. There's no reason asking Wayne about Dunn's option, because it's not going to be his decision to make."

Hal, like Trent, got sick and tired of the "state's secrets" mentality of the front office, and wrote about it all very condescendingly in his coverage of the Dumatrait start. Last night in the second inning, Hal said that it was nice of Wayne to explain yesterday's moves, but that "he probably shouldn't have," given what Wayne ended up actually saying. In Today's DDN, Wayne's "learn to lose" line is Hal's Quote of the Day.

It took a long time for the press to turn on Dave Miley, but once they did, his stay was brief. Heck, I'm not sure they ever turned on Jerry Narron, not that it helped him any. But they are certainly sick of Wayne Krivsky. Trent goes so far on his blog as to say "wayne's ultra-tight lipped and ultra-tight ... well, other parts." Expect that kind of animosity to affect the tone of the beat writers' articles going forward, and expect the public's opinion of Wayne, which is shaped in part by these reporters' coverage, to get a whole lot worse.

Dead man walking.

He's as good as gone IMO.

KronoRed
08-08-2007, 05:37 PM
How long before Marty and the gang starts taking shots?

M2
08-08-2007, 05:42 PM
He's as good as gone IMO.

It's amazing the dimes on which these things can turn. Literally the demotion of Jon Coutlangus may be the move that sealed Krivsky's fate.

I sort of agree with Rosencrans about Krivsky being a hot and cold GM. It's one of the reasons why I think he's still got a chance to save himself. He can, at times, make very good moves. Yet it looks like there's going to be a two-month warpath to fire him.

Aronchis
08-08-2007, 05:51 PM
Wayne's fate was sealed before Couter's demotion. The deadline told us Wayne's fate was sealed. Much like when DanO got slammed down when he tried trading Griff.

Though what the future brings looks just as murky.

nate
08-08-2007, 05:53 PM
It's amazing the dimes on which these things can turn. Literally the demotion of Jon Coutlangus may be the move that sealed Krivsky's fate.

I sort of agree with Rosencrans about Krivsky being a hot and cold GM. It's one of the reasons why I think he's still got a chance to save himself. He can, at times, make very good moves. Yet it looks like there's going to be a two-month warpath to fire him.

I'm thinking Walt Jocketty and TLR are comin' to town. Just because, if BCast is going to go to a "happy place", he might tend to go to something "known". Plus, people know those names and it _sounds_ like a big move. I dunno if its the move _I_ want, but its the one I think might happen.

BRM
08-08-2007, 05:58 PM
I put this in the Ellison thread but it probably belongs here.



Both Wayne and Pete said they will likely be down to 12 pitchers tomorrow.

I have been told there's a good reason Coffey is still here and it will become apparent. We'll see.

M2
08-08-2007, 05:59 PM
I'm thinking Walt Jocketty and TLR are comin' to town. Just because, if BCast is going to go to a "happy place", he might tend to go to something "known". Plus, people know those names and it _sounds_ like a big move. I dunno if its the move _I_ want, but its the one I think might happen.

I'm cool with Jocketty and LaRussa coming over, though I imagine that would also require Castellini to be prepared for a $90M ballclub in the very near future.

nate
08-08-2007, 06:01 PM
I'm cool with Jocketty and LaRussa coming over, though I imagine that would also require Castellini to be prepared for a $90M ballclub in the very near future.

I'm cool with that.

I love spending other people's money!

Ltlabner
08-08-2007, 06:06 PM
The second Wayne starts talking about learning how to lose, in the press, his days are numbered unless he really pulls something off.

BCasts comments about "Wayne has a plan and it's a good one" smack of the "kiss of death from a close friend". If he said Wayne had a good plan, and then elaborated said plan, and gave a vision for the future, it would indicate BCasts continued confidence. But to say "he's got a plan, his job is safe" sounds like the canned responce one would expect (admitdley I didn't hear/read the comments other that what was posted here).

I'm not saying Wayne should or shouldn't be fired. You all know my opinion on that. But when he talks openly about accepting losing with the sort of boss he has....the axe is being sharpened.

Redsland
08-08-2007, 06:07 PM
I wonder if Castellini thinks Wayne is a winner?

pedro
08-08-2007, 06:20 PM
I'm cool with Jocketty and LaRussa coming over, though I imagine that would also require Castellini to be prepared for a $90M ballclub in the very near future.

I'd be shocked if Larussa came to Cincinnati after this springs DUI.

As for Jocketty I'm pretty tepid. He's a good GM but he has made some really awful moves that make "the trade" look spectacular. They're paying heavily for the Mark Mulder acquisition right now.

Roy Tucker
08-08-2007, 06:20 PM
I think WK just isn't a very good communicator. The whole "learn how to lose a game" quote is getting twisted around a bit.

Reading between the lines, I think he meant to say "from the starters we're trotting out in the next week or so, we're going to need bullpen guys who can pitch to more than 1-2 batters, pitch in a blow-out, take one for the team, and keep from burning up a staff".

That's an awful thing for a GM to have to say. The fact the press is getting on him about it is only going to make him clam up even tighter.

But it does look like the press is piling on. Getting attacked by Fay is like getting licked to death by Bambi.

MWM
08-08-2007, 06:23 PM
I'd rather have Dave Duncan than TLR. But I'd love to have Jocketty.

M2
08-08-2007, 06:31 PM
As for Jocketty I'm pretty tepid. He's a good GM but he has made some really awful moves that make "the trade" look spectacular. They're paying heavily for the Mark Mulder acquisition right now.

If only the Reds could hire GMs whose bad moves turn out to be pitchers who only deliver 205 IP and 3.64 ERA for 100-win teams that make it to the LCS.

Honestly, I don't see the point in quibbling with a guy who's coming off a seven-year run like Jocketty had in 2000-2006.

pedro
08-08-2007, 06:33 PM
If only the Reds could hire GMs whose bad moves turn out to be pitchers who only deliver 205 IP and 3.64 ERA for 100-win teams that make it to the LCS.

Honestly, I don't see the point in quibbling with a guy who's coming off a seven-year run like Jocketty had in 2000-2006.

Still a crappy move. I'm not saying he's a bad GM, just that he's just as likely to get torched here as anyone else.

nate
08-08-2007, 06:34 PM
I think WK just isn't a very good communicator. The whole "learn how to lose a game" quote is getting twisted around a bit.

Reading between the lines, I think he meant to say "from the starters we're trotting out in the next week or so, we're going to need bullpen guys who can pitch to more than 1-2 batters, pitch in a blow-out, take one for the team, and keep from burning up a staff".

That's an awful thing for a GM to have to say. The fact the press is getting on him about it is only going to make him clam up even tighter.

But it does look like the press is piling on. Getting attacked by Fay is like getting licked to death by Bambi.

I agree. It was just a bad thing to say; I was aghast at how poorly something like that would translate.

Disagree on getting licked to death by Bambi, though.

dabvu2498
08-08-2007, 06:34 PM
I'd be shocked if Larussa came to Cincinnati after this springs DUI.

What would that have to do with him leaving/coming here?

pedro
08-08-2007, 06:36 PM
What would that have to do with him leaving/coming here?

I'm just not sure they'd hire him after that.

nate
08-08-2007, 06:38 PM
I'm just not sure they'd hire him after that.

How about if the Bengals hire him?

Ltlabner
08-08-2007, 06:38 PM
Reading between the lines, I think he meant to say "from the starters we're trotting out in the next week or so, we're going to need bullpen guys who can pitch to more than 1-2 batters, pitch in a blow-out, take one for the team, and keep from burning up a staff".

I also agree that was generally what he was trying to say Roy. And there was a million different ways he could have expressed himself.

He just had the misfortune to express himself in a way that people would pounce on, and that would state a goal in direct oposition to what the boss has stated since day one.

dabvu2498
08-08-2007, 06:39 PM
I'm just not sure they'd hire him after that.

I'm guessing that might weigh into about 0.0000001% of the upper management's decision-making.

Didn't Ryan Freel get an extension with 2 on his record?

pedro
08-08-2007, 06:46 PM
I'm guessing that might weigh into about 0.0000001% of the upper management's decision-making.

Didn't Ryan Freel get an extension with 2 on his record?

Ryan's not the manager. I'm not saying that there is no way they'd consider TLR but after all the bad blood from the Bengals off field behavior I'm not so sure TLR's DUI wouldn't be considered either.

Personally I hope he doesn't get hired. He might be the one guy that could make me dislike the Reds. I can't stand him.

dabvu2498
08-08-2007, 06:49 PM
Ryan's not the manager. I'm not saying that there is no way they'd consider TLR but after all the bad blood from the Bengals off field behavior I'm not so sure TLR's DUI wouldn't be considered either.

Personally I hope he doesn't get hired. He might be the one guy that could make me dislike the Reds. I can't stand him.

So you and Marty DO have something in common. :)

pedro
08-08-2007, 06:51 PM
So you and Marty DO have something in common. :)

That we do.

Ltlabner
08-08-2007, 06:52 PM
That we do.

So when Marty is doing the pre-game show with TLR which one are you rooting for? :p:

pedro
08-08-2007, 07:02 PM
So when Marty is doing the pre-game show with TLR which one are you rooting for? :p:

The clock.

Ltlabner
08-08-2007, 07:04 PM
The clock.

:rockband:

I would like the assist for that please.

I am a team player you know.

MWM
08-08-2007, 07:12 PM
If a GM never makes a bad move, then he's not trying hard enough. The best of the best make some stinkers from time to time, but they good far outweighs the bad. I think that's the case with Walt. The Mulder trade was a bad one and one that many saw right when it was made. But it was a high risk move in the right direction (i.e. hoping to get that stud pitcher that could put your team in the World Series). I'd take a GM willing to make a move like this and lose rather than one who never dares to be great (see pat Gillick in Seattle).

Redsland
08-08-2007, 07:49 PM
I have been told there's a good reason Coffey is still here and it will become apparent.
How deliciously mysterious.

:rolleyes:

pedro
08-08-2007, 07:58 PM
If a GM never makes a bad move, then he's not trying hard enough. The best of the best make some stinkers from time to time, but they good far outweighs the bad. I think that's the case with Walt. The Mulder trade was a bad one and one that many saw right when it was made. But it was a high risk move in the right direction (i.e. hoping to get that stud pitcher that could put your team in the World Series). I'd take a GM willing to make a move like this and lose rather than one who never dares to be great (see pat Gillick in Seattle).

Fair enough. Regardless, I get the impression from a lot of folks around here that they expect nothing short of perfection. Had the Reds GM traded away Danny Haren I doubt many here would be so forgiving.

MWM
08-08-2007, 08:02 PM
No question. The Reds fanbase, and RedsZone especially, have developed a short leash over the past 5 years or so. It doesn't take much for the tide to turn.

bucksfan2
08-09-2007, 10:10 AM
No question. The Reds fanbase, and RedsZone especially, have developed a short leash over the past 5 years or so. It doesn't take much for the tide to turn.

I think this is a microcosm the the reds mentality as a whole over the past decade. Turning around a baseball club takes paitence, it takes time, and the results aren't always seen right away. I think many of us agree that the reds need to rebuild but it gets tiresome that every move that is made is scrutinized and examinted to the highest degree. In the year that I have been a member on RZ I have seen an attitude develop of rebuild now but do anything that on the surface I dont agree with.

RedsManRick
08-09-2007, 10:24 AM
Fair enough. Regardless, I get the impression from a lot of folks around here that they expect nothing short of perfection. Had the Reds GM traded away Danny Haren I doubt many here would be so forgiving.

If we were winning the World Series the year Haren busted out, I think you'd see us a little more forgiving than you give us credit for.