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Danny Serafini
08-07-2007, 01:13 PM
I'm sure this will go ever well. The pitcher riding the option train to Louisville is...

Jon Coutlangus

Freel goes to the DL, and coming to Cincinnati are Majewski and Guardado. No, I'm not making this up, it's what the press notes really say.

deltachi8
08-07-2007, 01:14 PM
my goodness

penantboundreds
08-07-2007, 01:15 PM
stupid

redsfan30
08-07-2007, 01:16 PM
How Coutlangus goes over Coffey I will never know.

This is a head scratcher.

RedsManRick
08-07-2007, 01:16 PM
No pitcher's with ERA's under 4.00 under the age of 30 allowed!

deltachi8
08-07-2007, 01:18 PM
he has walked 5 people in his last 5 outings....not good.....just sending a message that you better throw strikes...

OK, and what message does keeping the other riff raff around say? I understand what you are saying, however, I think there were other choices.

Kc61
08-07-2007, 01:19 PM
It's simple. With Bruce, Bailey, Votto, Cueto, Bray, all at AAA, now Cout, Reds are going for it -- at Louisville!

Seriously, probably see a need for work on Cout's control. Maybe he can get a couple of games off down there, since he pitches every day at Cincy.

Roy Tucker
08-07-2007, 01:21 PM
A head-scratcher, indeed.

Most of the time I understand the logic behind these moves. This one I don't.

redsfan30
08-07-2007, 01:21 PM
Could there be a Coffey for Bray moving coming later today? Is Bray close enough?

remdog
08-07-2007, 01:22 PM
(sigh) :confused:

OK. The only bright light I can take from this is that Majewski and Everyday Eddie are getting their last shot at being in this teams' plans for next year. If they get pounded like a $2.00 steak hopefully the Reds can give them their release and move on.

Rem

deltachi8
08-07-2007, 01:23 PM
(sigh) :confused:

OK. The only bright light I can take from this is that Majewski and Everyday Eddie are getting their last shot at being in this teams' plans for next year. If they get pounded like a $2.00 steak hopefully the Reds can give them their release and move on.

Rem

Rem, you are such a glass is half full type of guy.

:-)

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 01:24 PM
Doh!!!

CTA513
08-07-2007, 01:26 PM
:sleep:

remdog
08-07-2007, 01:26 PM
Rem, you are such a glass is half full type of guy.

:-)

Thanks, I think. There are some here that think I'm just full of it. :p:

Rem

RedLegSuperStar
08-07-2007, 01:27 PM
We don't need another bat to replace Freel? Gosling and Coffey still remain while you send down Coutlangus who has been one of the more effective arms in the pen..

What is going on? This bullpen must really be in shambles if they need more arms then bats on this roster!

Danny Serafini
08-07-2007, 01:27 PM
The other bonus I just realized is that they're now carrying 13 pitchers. This coming off of two off days so the entire pen is rested. It just gets stranger.

RedsManRick
08-07-2007, 01:28 PM
According to the game log I'm looking at, he hasn't walked anybody since July 25th, 6 outings ago. Since then:

5 Appearances
3.2 IP
5 H
4 K
1 ER

He hasn't been a superstar, and he's definitely walking WAY too many guys. But he's missing bats and not giving up hits.

Maybe they want to keep Coffey working with the same pitching coach for a while. Burton, Stanton, and Weathers can't be sent down without going through waivers. Dumatrait and Livingston are in the rotation. I guess that leaves Cooter, Gosling, and Santos.

RedLegSuperStar
08-07-2007, 01:29 PM
Guess we can finally get to see Conine in the OF...

indy_dave00
08-07-2007, 01:29 PM
OMG , what is wrong with the front office?? Their moves must be drawing names from a hat no other way to describe it.

flyer85
08-07-2007, 01:29 PM
the Reds salvation on the way ... or better known as "the turd of the week".

dfs
08-07-2007, 01:29 PM
I've been as patient as a fan can be. I think for the first time since Tony Perez was fired I can say that I have absolutely no clue who is driving this franchise or in what direction they want to go. No clue. Just no idea.

Those of you who have the ability to tune in, please pay attention to Pete Mackanin's take on this. He made a big point of telling the writers that there were going to be wholesale changes in the bullpen for the dodger series. I wonder if this is what he had in mind or if he just got the label "interim" stamped firmly on his forehead.

redsfan30
08-07-2007, 01:30 PM
There would have to be another move coming later today for another bat. There's no way they're going to go 13 pitchers.

CTA513
08-07-2007, 01:30 PM
Guess we can finally get to see Conine in the OF...

No more defensive replacements unless Keppinger or Conine go play the outfield.

guttle11
08-07-2007, 01:31 PM
Uncle.

dougdirt
08-07-2007, 01:32 PM
I honestly cant type what I want to say right now if I wish to continue posting on this website. So I wont. Use your imagination..... its probably twice as bad as what you just thought.

I hate the Reds.

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 01:32 PM
Reshuffle those chairs.

But really Majewski again? come on.

westofyou
08-07-2007, 01:33 PM
There would have to be another move coming later today for another bat. There's no way they're going to go 13 pitchers.

Even though Atlanta, St Louis and the Giants are doing it?

Maybe it's a trend?

Always Red
08-07-2007, 01:34 PM
This has gone from puzzling to simply bizarre.

Coutlangus has given up, I believe, 2 runs since the beginning of July, and his ERA has gone down to 3.93 from 4.7 in the same time period? Sure, he has some control issues, but relatively speaking...

I'm sure that Wayne has a plan. I'd love to be confident in him and give him all the time he needs to work out the myriad problems of this organization. Just seems to me that you'd want the best pitchers in the organization on the big league ball club.

Who knows, maybe there will be more moves in the next couple of days. He didn't trade for Cantu in order for him to be in Louisville- that's not Wayne's track record to this point. When he trades for them, he throws them right in there.

I can guess that Pete Mackanin most probably isn't overly happy with the pitching moves made today?

Kc61
08-07-2007, 01:34 PM
People, sometimes you send a guy down because he is part of the future. You want him to work on some things. I have to think (hopefully) that is the reason with Cout. I didn't mind EE going down there earlier this year; same reason.

To me, the odd things are -- Majewski, what makes anyone think he will be effective now?

Why not Bray?

Why 13 pitchers?

Have to think something else will happen. Unless go with 13 pitchers for a few days until Hammy comes back. But why would they? Baffling to me.

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 01:35 PM
Even though Atlanta, St Louis and the Giants are doing it?

Maybe it's a trend?


If it's a trend the Reds are joining in about 4 years prior to when they usually do.

Hey, maybe they are improving. That's the silver lining.

indy_dave00
08-07-2007, 01:35 PM
Sending Coutlangis and Hamilton to Louisville does strengthen the team for a playoff run.

Maybe Reds front office has it backward they reward good play with a trip to Louisville and a playoff run.

bucksfan2
08-07-2007, 01:38 PM
The only think I can think is that since they are bringing Eddie back they dont need another lefty in the pen. Other than that I cant believe that Coffey still has a roster spot on the big leauge club.

Kc61
08-07-2007, 01:39 PM
Sending Coutlangis and Hamilton to Louisville does strengthen the team for a playoff run.

Maybe Reds front office has it backward they reward good play with a trip to Louisville and a playoff run.



Agree. Let's see AAA has Bruce, Votto, Cantu, Bailey (DL), Cueto, Hamilton, Bray, Coutlangus, Dickerson, Pelland.

Maybe this is some kind of bonding thing.

edabbs44
08-07-2007, 01:40 PM
Whatever. The season was over a long time ago. They could call up Mario Soto and it wouldn't phase me.

But it also strengthens my argument that Narron had much less to do with the disaster known as the bullpen as many believed.

pedro
08-07-2007, 01:40 PM
Apparently they didn't want to carry 4 lefties in the BP and since JC is primarily a LOOGY and the starters haven't been logging a lot of innings they felt it was more important to have guys who could stretch it out a bit for the time being.

That's all I've got.

Chip R
08-07-2007, 01:41 PM
The only think I can think is that since they are bringing Eddie back they dont need another lefty in the pen. Other than that I cant believe that Coffey still has a roster spot on the big leauge club.


I don't care if they have 10 lefties in there. If they are better than the RH pitchers that have now, why not have them on the roster? :confused:

Tom Servo
08-07-2007, 01:41 PM
Keep Coffey and Gosling, recall Majewski, and send down Coutlangus.


Really.



Wow.

redsfan4445
08-07-2007, 01:42 PM
good luck in your next job WAYNE!!

Patrick Bateman
08-07-2007, 01:42 PM
Coutlangus has struggled this season, but he needs to be on the roster to work through his problems.

The only advantage I see in Guardado is that he pitches well for a couple of weeks and is turned into a fringe prospect. I see no advantage in Majewski.

redsfan4445
08-07-2007, 01:43 PM
maybe this is to show case thm to get rid of them before the aug deadline.. no other reason makes sense.. coffey has no reason to stay.. oh i forgot!!! Wayne extended him.. so he gets to stay

Cyclone792
08-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Sweet, Eddie Guardado is back.

Krivsky must have given the green light to print those 2007 Cincinnati Reds National League Central Division Champion t-shirts. He's also apparently given the thumbs up to start printing those 2007 LDS and LCS tickets. With Guardado back and the team in win now mode, things are starting to line up now.

In a couple weeks when Bray is back, it'll be time to print those World Series tickets and pre-order those 2007 Cincinnati Reds World Series Champion t-shirts.

deltachi8
08-07-2007, 01:47 PM
[/charlie donavon] How about a series of fines for good play? Maybe a $30,000 bonus to the guy voted Least Valuable Player. [/end charlie donavan]

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 01:48 PM
I'd think with 13 pitchers (I hope that trend dies quickly) you could carry a loogy

pedro
08-07-2007, 01:49 PM
somehow I have to wonder if both these guys are up for one last look before they're let go.

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 01:50 PM
I'd think with 13 pitchers (I hope that trend dies quickly) you could carry a loogy

I'd hope so. That's a lot of phlegm.

I can usually fit mine in 1 pitcher.

pedro
08-07-2007, 01:50 PM
I'd think with 13 pitchers (I hope that trend dies quickly) you could carry a loogy

I wonder if that's going to last though....

flyer85
08-07-2007, 01:50 PM
somehow I have to wonder if both these guys are up for one last look before they're let go.... I just wonder

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 01:51 PM
somehow I have to wonder if both these guys are up for one last look before they're let go.

Majewski, maybe.

Guardado, no chance. He's on the roster and is here until his arm falls off. He's a "proven" MLB closer and Krivsky will keep him on the roster for the rest of this season, at least.

Chip R
08-07-2007, 01:53 PM
Guardado, no chance. He's on the roster and is here until his arm falls off. He's a "proven" MLB closer and Krivsky will keep him on the roster for the rest of this season, at least.


I just wonder if he's going to be the closer now.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 01:53 PM
Guardado sure has been mowing them down in Louisville, so that makes sense. Ha ha.

Yawn.

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 01:53 PM
I just wonder if he's going to be the closer now.

I think they'll ease him in, but I have no doubts he'll be put back in the closers role at some point.

Always Red
08-07-2007, 01:57 PM
I think they'll ease him in, but I have no doubts he'll be put back in the closers role at some point.

I'd love to see him do well, but I think Eddie's going to get lit up like a Christmas tree this time around. He did it with smoke and mirrors last year (IMO), and after arm surgery...:eek:

flyer85
08-07-2007, 01:57 PM
Guardado sure has been mowing them down in Louisville, so that makes sense. Ha ha.

Yawn.the funny thing is Bray is mowing down them in Louisville. I suppose EG is a candidate to be traded if he proves healthy and somewhat effective. Majewski ... I have no idea, he hasn't been all that good with the Bats.

Kc61
08-07-2007, 02:00 PM
maybe this is to show case thm to get rid of them before the aug deadline.. no other reason makes sense.. coffey has no reason to stay.. oh i forgot!!! Wayne extended him.. so he gets to stay

Nice point on the showcase thing. It's almost as if the major league Reds team is an afterthought, lots of guys who are short-termers for the Reds.

The young talent is largely at AAA.

Maybe Wayne is trying to find a way to move those who don't fit into the future.

The major league Reds aren't very exciting right now. But the AAA Reds are, which is great.

(Maybe Coffey and Gosling cleared waivers, which is why they are being kept at Cincy for possible deal.)

edabbs44
08-07-2007, 02:00 PM
Majewski, maybe.

Guardado, no chance. He's on the roster and is here until his arm falls off. He's a "proven" MLB closer and Krivsky will keep him on the roster for the rest of this season, at least.

I can't see Majewski getting cut anytime soon. He isn't as bad as he has shown and for him to be this bad, he has to be seriously hurt. I bet this is his last chance before major surgery.

pahster
08-07-2007, 02:03 PM
I like this move. Should help the Reds get that elusive #1 draft slot. :p:

cincrazy
08-07-2007, 02:05 PM
You'd be hard pressed to find a more inept franchise in the game of baseball. I'll leave it at that.

dabvu2498
08-07-2007, 02:09 PM
I like this move. Should help the Reds get that elusive #1 draft slot. :p:

Should I go ahead and get my Pedro Alvarez jersey ready?

cumberlandreds
08-07-2007, 02:09 PM
I like this move. Should help the Reds get that elusive #1 draft slot. :p:

I think you are on to something. After beating the Pirates twice this weekend the front office could see the number one pick slipping away. :)
I think the FO is hoping beyond hope that some team will truly panic and take some of these washed up pitchers off their hands before they are forced to release them.

Joseph
08-07-2007, 02:12 PM
You'd be hard pressed to find a more inept franchise in the game of baseball. I'll leave it at that.

Isn't that what Obi-Wan said to Luke as they stood on the Kentucky side of the Ohio and looked towards GABP in the first Star Wars film?

Roy Tucker
08-07-2007, 02:13 PM
I can understand them pulling up Majewski and Guardado to see what they have left. I think its a little soon for Guardado, but with a rebuilt elbow, maybe he'll surprise. We could use a little good bullpen luck.

Majewski, I don't get what is going on with him. Injury is probably the likeliest culprit. Used-up is probably more like it.

I can understand wanting to see the pitchers, but Coutlangus was one of the few guys that seemed to get anyone out with any regularity (besides Weathers). Oh well, not that it matters a whole lot.

I looked at the Reds LH relievers against RH hitter stats as a measure to see who could be more than a LOOGY and pitch vs. lefties and righties. When Mike Stanton is best, that speaks volumes.

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 02:14 PM
I'd hope so. That's a lot of phlegm.

I can usually fit mine in 1 pitcher.

Well your dad IS a Doctor :D

Kc61
08-07-2007, 02:17 PM
Seriously, I think Wayne's plan is becoming clear. He is stockpiling a core of talented players in the high minor leagues. He expects this group to become the new Reds. Most of the current major leaguers are for sale, at one price or another.

The major league team is now sort of a flea market where a number of guys can be obtained for very little, several others can be obtained for value.

We can laugh at this, but it does make some sense. One approach is just to cut veterans loose and play the kids. Wayne's approach is to use August to try to get something for these vets, with the kids to follow in September or next spring.

I hope some scouts from contenders will be in attendance tonight.

Strikes Out Looking
08-07-2007, 02:17 PM
I think everyone is over-reacting. While I don't think todays transactions make much sense in and of themselves, I don't think WK is so stupid that he's only going to carry 12 offensive players (10 for 7 positions if you take out the catchers) for more than a day or so. I'd be willing to bet that within the next 24 hours another move is made. I would bet that they want to see how Hamilton's wrist is and also what the results of Freel's surgery are. Why, because the next OF option is one Jay Bruce and they don't want to rush it (they already rushed one prospect this year at the urging of a now departed manager and I don't think the results have been so hot). And finally, after September 1, I'd guess we'll see a whole lot of call ups.

nate
08-07-2007, 02:21 PM
I think everyone is over-reacting. While I don't think todays transactions make much sense in and of themselves, I don't think WK is so stupid that he's only going to carry 12 offensive players (10 for 7 positions if you take out the catchers) for more than a day or so. I'd be willing to bet that within the next 24 hours another move is made. I would bet that they want to see how Hamilton's wrist is and also what the results of Freel's surgery are. Why, because the next OF option is one Jay Bruce and they don't want to rush it (they already rushed one prospect this year at the urging of a now departed manager and I don't think the results have been so hot). And finally, after September 1, I'd guess we'll see a whole lot of call ups.

The torch and pitchfork salesman is throwing you a stink eye.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 02:26 PM
So they now have 14 pitchers and 3 bench players....and instead of sending a guy like...oh, I don't know....Mike Stanton and Todd Coffey packing, they send down a guy who actually gets people out....yet don't replace Freel with a position player like...oh....how about, Jay Bruce? Joey Votto?


I don't get it.


I have no problem bringing As Everyday as he Can Eddie and Majewski up....but the way they did it makes no sense. I'd bring Bray up to....bring those 3 up, a position player, get rid of Coffey, Stanton, and then Coutlanges, and place Freel on the DL and it makes some sense....keeping Coffey and Stanton over Coutlanges does not make the bullpen better

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 02:27 PM
I think everyone is over-reacting. While I don't think todays transactions make much sense in and of themselves, I don't think WK is so stupid that he's only going to carry 12 offensive players (10 for 7 positions if you take out the catchers) for more than a day or so. I'd be willing to bet that within the next 24 hours another move is made. I would bet that they want to see how Hamilton's wrist is and also what the results of Freel's surgery are. Why, because the next OF option is one Jay Bruce and they don't want to rush it (they already rushed one prospect this year at the urging of a now departed manager and I don't think the results have been so hot). And finally, after September 1, I'd guess we'll see a whole lot of call ups.


Well, I hope so.

bucksfan2
08-07-2007, 02:30 PM
I think everyone is over-reacting. While I don't think todays transactions make much sense in and of themselves, I don't think WK is so stupid that he's only going to carry 12 offensive players (10 for 7 positions if you take out the catchers) for more than a day or so. I'd be willing to bet that within the next 24 hours another move is made. I would bet that they want to see how Hamilton's wrist is and also what the results of Freel's surgery are. Why, because the next OF option is one Jay Bruce and they don't want to rush it (they already rushed one prospect this year at the urging of a now departed manager and I don't think the results have been so hot). And finally, after September 1, I'd guess we'll see a whole lot of call ups.

It may be that Freel is done for the year. If he has lingering knee problems Freel's value is very little. Bruce is not the next outfielder in line. Should he be, maybe, he is the most talented but I think Dickerson may get the call before Bruce in a need situation. Hamilton's rehab kind of baffles me. I can see wanting him to get some cuts in but Hamilton with a sore wrist is still better than Hopper. These moves make me wonder if Conine will be the defensive replacement for Dunn in a close ball game.

As for the pitching I dont Guardado going anywhere soon. He has an optoin for next year. He did it on smoke and mirrors last season with a bum shoulder. He is a closer and he knows how to win games. Look at Weathers, he doesn't have half the stuff he used to but still is effective and knows how to pitch. Guardado is in the same mold. Maj I dont really understand unless he is finally healthy and ready to go. He wasn't this bad in Washington and hopefully he can regain his stuff.

Caveat Emperor
08-07-2007, 02:32 PM
He's on the roster and is here until his arm falls off.

They say the vice president is "one heartbeat away..."

Guess that makes Tyler Pelland "one curveball away..."

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 02:34 PM
There would have to be another move coming later today for another bat. There's no way they're going to go 13 pitchers.


Even though Atlanta, St Louis and the Giants are doing it?

Maybe it's a trend?

How soon before someone carries 14 pitchers?

flyer85
08-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Hamilton's rehab kind of baffles me. I can see wanting him to get some cuts in but Hamilton with a sore wrist is still better than Hopper. bite your tongue and :bang: until forgiven. Marty will give you absolution.

Chip R
08-07-2007, 02:42 PM
Hamilton's rehab kind of baffles me. I can see wanting him to get some cuts in but Hamilton with a sore wrist is still better than Hopper.


I don't see the mystery here. Every time you swing a bat you use your wrists. If a guy has a wrist injury, I would think they are going to be very careful with him before they activate him so he doesn't re-injure it. I would hope that the Reds see more of a future with Hamilton than they do with Hopper. So they are going to be very, very careful with him. Makes perfect sense to me.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 02:43 PM
Since the all-star break


- Coutlangus: 12 games, 2.70 ERA.......1.08 in July (15 games)
- Coffey: 10 games, 10.61 ERA........27.00 in August (1 inning)

flyer85
08-07-2007, 02:45 PM
Since the all-star break


- Coutlangus: 12 games, 2.70 ERA.......1.08 in July (15 games)
- Coffey: 10 games, 10.61 ERA........27.00 in August (1 inning)

Maybe they are trying to trade him. There are a ton of trade candidates, I doubt we see any of them go.

redsmetz
08-07-2007, 02:49 PM
I don't see the mystery here. Every time you swing a bat you use your wrists. If a guy has a wrist injury, I would think they are going to be very careful with him before they activate him so he doesn't re-injure it. I would hope that the Reds see more of a future with Hamilton than they do with Hopper. So they are going to be very, very careful with him. Makes perfect sense to me.

The other thing is, IMO, that we're still in the mode of getting Hamilton through this season. After that, he's our's. I agree with your supposition, though, that we are best serve by exercising care with Hamilton.

BRM
08-07-2007, 02:53 PM
Since the all-star break


- Coutlangus: 12 games, 2.70 ERA.......1.08 in July (15 games)
- Coffey: 10 games, 10.61 ERA........27.00 in August (1 inning)

You shouldn't have looked that up Matt. It just makes the move even more confusing. I just hope this is due to showcasing a few arms for trade this month.

flyer85
08-07-2007, 02:56 PM
You shouldn't have looked that up Matt. It just makes the move even more confusing. I just hope this is due to showcasing a few arms for trade this month.let's be honest, this just leaves everyone :confused:. One hopes that it will all make sense as the Reds move forward ... but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

In light of 2007, it just doesn't matter, the season circled the bowl a long time ago.

BRM
08-07-2007, 02:58 PM
let's be honest, this just leaves everyone :confused:. One hopes that it will all make sense as the Reds move forward ... but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

In light of 2007, it just doesn't matter, the season circled the bowl a long time ago.

I've been waiting for it all to make sense for quite some time. Of course, I've been accused of being not too bright before so that could be it. ;)

Puffy
08-07-2007, 03:01 PM
Who cares? The Reds have proven thru 111 games of ineptitude that they blow chunks, so Coutlangus, Guardado, Majic, Frank Pastore or John Roper - who really cares.

In the words of Lt. Frank Drebin - Nothing to see here. Please disperse. Nothing to see here.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 03:11 PM
You shouldn't have looked that up Matt. It just makes the move even more confusing. I just hope this is due to showcasing a few arms for trade this month.

Towel thrown in...by me.

I give up.

Guacarock
08-07-2007, 03:12 PM
Wake me up next Groundhog Day. Maybe this surreal nightmare will be over by then.

Always Red
08-07-2007, 03:13 PM
Towel thrown in...by me.

I don't know anymore.

I think I know one thing for sure- it seems as if Wayne and Pete Mack are definitely not on the same page! ;)

I highly doubt if Pete was talking about Cooter when he mentioned "some changes are going to be made" to the bullpen...

Falls City Beer
08-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Who cares? The Reds have proven thru 111 games of ineptitude that they blow chunks, so Coutlangus, Guardado, Majic, Frank Pastore or John Roper - who really cares.

In the words of Lt. Frank Drebin - Nothing to see here. Please disperse. Nothing to see here.

"We'll always have Majic...."

WVRedsFan
08-07-2007, 03:24 PM
Towel thrown in...by me.

I give up.

Me too.

Maybe with one more off-season we can right most of the problems with this club--NOT.

It's a zoo and the inmates are running the asylum. Frankly, they could hire DePotesta, Beane, Theo, and Jockety to be the brain trust all at once and we're still going to be 10 years away.

Doom, despair and agony.

M2
08-07-2007, 03:30 PM
This goes right to the matter of hope. We all know things aren't good with the Reds, but we hope that the folks in charge can find a way out of the darkness. Then, when they make baffling moves like this, it stomps the hope right out of you.

This regime doesn't have the good sense to rebuild. Whether it could or not is immaterial. It won't even try.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2007, 03:31 PM
This goes right to the matter of hope. We all know things aren't good with the Reds, but we hope that the folks in charge can find a way out of the darkness. Then, when they make baffling moves like this, it stomps the hope right out of you.

This regime doesn't have the good sense to rebuild. Whether it could or not is immaterial. It won't even try.

Amen.

redsmetz
08-07-2007, 03:31 PM
Me too.

Maybe with one more off-season we can right most of the problems with this club--NOT.

It's a zoo and the inmates are running the asylum. Frankly, they could hire DePotesta, Beane, Theo, and Jockety to be the brain trust all at once and we're still going to be 10 years away.

Doom, despair and agony.

The inmates are running the assylum? With a business, that's usually a euphemism that the employees are calling the shots. Are you suggesting that some player or another is pulling the strings? I don't get your analogy at all.

I can't say that I understand these moves, but it's certainly not indicative that anyone other than someone in management is calling the shots.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2007, 03:33 PM
The inmates are running the assylum? With a business, that's usually a euphemism that the employees are calling the shots. Are you suggesting that some player or another is pulling the strings? I don't get your analogy at all.

I can't say that I understand these moves, but it's certainly not indicative that anyone other than someone in management is calling the shots.

Bad anology, redsmetz. I didn't mean that at all. The disgust with all of this makes me not think straight.

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 03:34 PM
This goes right to the matter of hope. We all know things aren't good with the Reds, but we hope that the folks in charge can find a way out of the darkness. Then, when they make baffling moves like this, it stomps the hope right out of you.

This regime doesn't have the good sense to rebuild. Whether it could or not is immaterial. It won't even try.

And as you said, it just sucks the life right out of you.

I hate it. I so badly want to see the Reds turn things around and not be a laughed-at franchise.

Cooper
08-07-2007, 03:37 PM
It's a cya move. That's all Wayne is about. He's hoping Magic Man somehow throws an ERA of 4.50 on the board so he can then point to it as a decent move.

The man is all about covering his bases. It's all he talks about. When asked whether he is doing something his reply is (and i'm paraphrasing) "we are doing a little of this and a little of that". When he speaks it's not about anything definative....it's about everything that could possibly be derived. Don't worry folks ....Wayne has it ALL covered.

He has no plan at all (except to survive). He can tel his boss he tried everything (and really nothing at all).

Heath
08-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Seriously, I think Wayne's plan is becoming clear. He is stockpiling a core of talented players in the high minor leagues. He expects this group to become the new Reds. Most of the current major leaguers are for sale, at one price or another.

The major league team is now sort of a flea market where a number of guys can be obtained for very little, several others can be obtained for value.

We can laugh at this, but it does make some sense. One approach is just to cut veterans loose and play the kids. Wayne's approach is to use August to try to get something for these vets, with the kids to follow in September or next spring.

I hope some scouts from contenders will be in attendance tonight.


Interesting. Highly strange, but interesting, nonetheless.

redsmetz
08-07-2007, 03:47 PM
It's a cya move. That's all Wayne is about. He's hoping Magic Man somehow throws an ERA of 4.50 on the board so he can then point to it as a decent move.

The man is all about covering his bases. It's all he talks about. When asked whether he is doing something his reply is (and i'm paraphrasing) "we are doing a little of this and a little of that". When he speaks it's not about anything definative....it's about everything that could possibly be derived. Don't worry folks ....Wayne has it ALL covered.

He has no plan at all (except to survive). He can tel his boss he tried everything (and really nothing at all).

I don't see how Majewski having a 4.50 ERA would be a CYA move - I wouldn't find that satisfactory. I think you're misintepreting his reticence as dodging blame. We've had so many years of gabby GM's between Bowden ("if his lips are moving, he's lying" Calvin "Pokey" Reese) and O'Brien, who as I understand it, could make "See Spot Run" into a Russian novel.

I'm not sure there are a lot of GM's who care to break down their specific moves ahead of time. Again, I can't say if these are right moves, but WK has made it clear that he doesn't discuss moves ahead of time in the press. I think that's what drives folks like Fay crazy, IMO.

red-in-la
08-07-2007, 03:49 PM
And as you said, it just sucks the life right out of you.

I hate it. I so badly want to see the Reds turn things around and not be a laughed-at franchise.


I am afraid that the Reds will not even rate being laughed at.

In MLB, the status-quo is that there are Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Colorado, Texas, and the teasers Oakland, Florida and Minnesota that are just accepted as being what they are.

It takes an even playing field like football to become a laughing stock.

Always Red
08-07-2007, 03:52 PM
The major league team is now sort of a flea market ...

Do they charge admission to get into the flea market? :D

It's really a half serious question. If the Reds aren't even going to try to win MLB games (keep Coffey, send down Cout, bring up Maj), why should any of us go to see them? Especially with it this hot, I can watch the circus from the comfort of my air-conditioned living room. I think attendance is getting ready to take a hard hit.

Dollar dogs aren't going to help that.

Sometimes this team is hard to root for. ;)

Always Red
08-07-2007, 03:57 PM
but WK has made it clear that he doesn't discuss moves ahead of time in the press. I think that's what drives folks like Fay crazy, IMO.

He does not discuss them at all, before or even after the fact, other than to repeat the same mantra again and again. (get good players, play better....) That's what drives me crazy.

I don't expect Wayne to tell me exactly what his plan is. But isn't part of being the GM of an MLB team giving your fans some hope, some inkling, some rare, thin, bright ray of sunshine?

Team Clark
08-07-2007, 04:00 PM
(sigh) :confused:

OK. The only bright light I can take from this is that Majewski and Everyday Eddie are getting their last shot at being in this teams' plans for next year. If they get pounded like a $2.00 steak hopefully the Reds can give them their release and move on.

Rem

Rem, I would have to agree. Moving Coutlangus is mystifying. Granted he has options but so does Coffey. I wonder how mad Mackanin is right now. Coutlangus is among the league leaders in appearances and has done an admirable job for a rookie. More moves must be coming... I hope.

Cooper
08-07-2007, 04:00 PM
Redsmetz: do you feel the Magic Man earned his way back? Why else would you bring him back up? The Reds would be quite pleased if he posted an ERA of 4.50.

bucksfan2
08-07-2007, 04:07 PM
He does not discuss them at all, before or even after the fact, other than to repeat the same mantra again and again. (get good players, play better....) That's what drives me crazy.

I don't expect Wayne to tell me exactly what his plan is. But isn't part of being the GM of an MLB team giving your fans some hope, some inkling, some rare, thin, bright ray of sunshine?

His job is to make his ball club both better on the MLB and minor league level. He owes noting to the fans, the only person he is indebted to is the owner. Other than that I dont care if he says one thing to us fans all year.

Kc61
08-07-2007, 04:12 PM
His job is to make his ball club both better on the MLB and minor league level. He owes noting to the fans, the only person he is indebted to is the owner. Other than that I dont care if he says one thing to us fans all year.

Very soon, this team will have the following players, among others --

Bruce, Dickerson, Hamilton, maybe still Dunn and/or Griffey

Phillips, Gonzo, EE, Votto, Cantu

Don't know about catching, probably still Ross and Valentin

Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, Maloney

Pelland, Coutlangus, Roenicke, Bray, maybe McBeth and/or Salmon, some new relievers. Maybe still Weathers.

Keppinger and maybe Hopper. Maybe Hatteberg as a reserve.

There will then be hope. We are still in the transition phase.

BRM
08-07-2007, 04:14 PM
Very soon, this team will have the following players, among others --

Bruce, Dickerson, Hamilton, maybe still Dunn and/or Griffey

Phillips, Gonzo, EE, Votto, Cantu

Don't know about catching, probably still Ross and Valentin

Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, Maloney

Pelland, Coutlangus, Roenicke, maybe McBeth and/or Salmon, some new guys.

Keppinger and maybe Hopper. Maybe Hatteberg as a reserve.

There will then be hope. We are still in the transition phase.

I'd be thrilled if 2 or 3 of those names panned out. I wouldn't count on all of them though.

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 04:15 PM
Very soon, this team will have the following players, among others --

Bruce, Dickerson, Hamilton, maybe still Dunn and/or Griffey

Phillips, Gonzo, EE, Votto, Cantu

Don't know about catching, probably still Ross and Valentin

Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, Maloney

Pelland, Coutlangus, Bray, Roenicke, maybe McBeth and/or Salmon, some new relievers. Maybe still Weathers.

Keppinger and maybe Hopper. Maybe Hatteberg as a reserve.

There will then be hope. We are still in the transition phase.


If I have to re-type this again next year at this time I swear to the good Lord that I'm going to break something...

Kc61
08-07-2007, 04:17 PM
If I have to re-type this again next year at this time I swear to the good Lord that I'm going to break something...


I left out Bray. Am adding him in case it needs to be re-typed next year.

Always Red
08-07-2007, 04:18 PM
His job is to make his ball club both better on the MLB and minor league level. He owes noting to the fans, the only person he is indebted to is the owner. Other than that I dont care if he says one thing to us fans all year.

Well, that's where I think I disagree with you, respectfully.

A major league GM has some responsibility to positively market his team, on occasion as a situation might dictate. It's not his main job, of course, but if he wants folks to care about his team, he'll realize that.

What is the purpose of a press conference, anyway? If there's no need, all he would need to do is send out a press release and be done with it.

I prefaced my remarks earlier by saying I do not expect Wayne to tell us his entire plan. Reds fans need some hope. Whether he realizes it or not, Wayne Krivsky is in many ways (with Jr and Dunn's status up in the air), for better or worse, the face of the Reds these days for many of us.

redsmetz
08-07-2007, 04:18 PM
Redsmetz: do you feel the Magic Man earned his way back? Why else would you bring him back up? The Reds would be quite pleased if he posted an ERA of 4.50.

Whether this will translate to success this time at the ML level, I can't say, but looking at his last 10 games at Louisville (beginning 7/18), he's posted a 2.67 ERA over 10.1 innings; a WHIP of 1.287, with 7 K's. He basically allowed runs in two consecutive appearances on the 26th & 28th of July; otherwise no ER's. The stats on the Bats' web page doesn't show whether an Inherited Runners score.

At some point, I think we need to see what he can do. I see nothing in the last month that would say otherwise.

dfs
08-07-2007, 04:31 PM
There will then be hope. We are still in the transition phase.

I don't mean this as disrespectful or rude, so please don't take it that way.

Why send Coutlangus down? What in the world are you transitioning to if you take the brightest ember in your bullpen and send him off to pitch for the river bats?

What's mystifying about this move is that for the last year and half the reds have needed to assemble a bullpen. To put guys in roles where they can succeed. I don't think anybody who comes to this site would dispute that building a bullpen at the major league level is the single most important thing they can be doing.

Now, take a look at this year's numbers. Go on over to http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/2007.shtml

Lets take an easy number...let's use an ERA of 4.00. That's not the best metric in the world, but let's use it. The reds have four relievers whose seasonal ERA is below 4.00 You would think those guys' jobs would be safe. Those are the guys that you keep tossing out there while you try and fill out the rest of your staff right?

That's David Weathers who is gonna be around next year,
John Coutlangus who was just sent down to AAA,
Brad Salmon who is already at AAA
and Jared Burton the rule V pickup who the reds would have at AAA if they could.

It's.....It's like filling out your batting order by taking the guy with the worse OBP and making him leadoff and just sorting the rest of the guys that way.

The whole point is to take the guys who show some success and keep them around. Instead those are the guys headed downstream.

15fan
08-07-2007, 04:38 PM
Also in the press notes:

Today, the Reds agreed with 50 year old Jesse Orosco on a contract for the remainder of the 2007 season, with a player option of $5 million for 2008.

The team also bolstered it's bench by trading minor leaguer Homer Bailey to Atlanta for 48 year old (wink wink) Julio Franco.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 04:40 PM
Also in the press notes:

Today, the Reds agreed with 50 year old Jesse Orosco on a contract for the remainder of the 2007 season, with a player option of $5 million for 2008.

The team also bolstered it's bench by trading minor leaguer Homer Bailey to Atlanta for 48 year old (wink wink) Julio Franco.

That sad thing is, that's believable :(

Cyclone792
08-07-2007, 04:44 PM
It's.....It's like filling out your batting order by taking the guy with the worse OBP and making him leadoff and just sorting the rest of the guys that way.

Give Wayne Krivsky enough time, and that's what the Reds' offense will look like.

BRM
08-07-2007, 04:52 PM
From John Fay.



More on the moves; Freel done

It sounds like a position player will be brought up shortly.

Ryan Freel says if the his knee is as bad as they expect, he's done for the year. "I'll be on crutches four to six weeks," he said.

Pete Mackanin on why Todd Coffey wasn't sent out: "I don't know how to answer that. There might be something else going on. You might ask Wayne (Krivsky). . . There's so much involved that I'm not privy too."

Gary Majewski said something applies to Coffey: "Sometimes it's better to go down (to the minors) and work on stuff than stay up here and get shellacked."

Haven't seen Krivsky yet.

BRM
08-07-2007, 04:56 PM
Wayne speaks.



Krivsky on the moves

He didn't help himself by saying what he said, but here's Wayne Krivsky's explanation of the moves:

On why Todd Coffey wasn't optioned: “We going with the 13 right now that we think are the best 13 over whatever length of time it is. I don’t want to talk about individuals. He’s not the only one who’s struggling.”

On carrying 13 pitchers: "Many times it's to protect your other pitchers, so you can use the right guys whether you’re winning or losing. There’s old expression among veteran managers: You've got to know how to lose a game too. There’s a lot of truth in that, so you’re prepared to win the next one. It gives Pete a little extra flexibility with his bullpen. We’ll see how long we go with 13. I don’t know.

“Two intelligent minds can agree to disagree on the moves. I'm trying to give you guys our reasons. There’s one GM, one manager and pitching coach. We put all our heads together and tried to come up with what made sense.”

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 04:57 PM
Mack doesn't sound thrilled with these moves

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 04:58 PM
Mack doesn't sound thrilled with these moves

I don't think Mack isn't getting to do a lot of what he wants to do...

BRM
08-07-2007, 04:59 PM
It's interesting. Pete makes it sound like he had very little input and wasn't privy to much of the decision making. Wayne makes it sound like he sat down with Pete and Dick Pole and they came to this conclusion.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 05:00 PM
Just reading it, you can hear Krivsky's grumpiness.

What a personality that man has.

He can't be gone soon enough.

Kc61
08-07-2007, 05:01 PM
The notion that this is the "best 13" is, well, not something I would agree with.
If Coutlangus is hurt, or needs some work in the minors, or just needs rest, I'm ok with that. But the current 13 are not the best 13.

Tom Servo
08-07-2007, 05:01 PM
Mack doesn't sound thrilled with these moves
Nor should he. He's managing to win a job (atleast in his mind anyway) and Wayne just took away an effective pitcher in Coutlangus and left him with an ineffective one in Coffey.

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:02 PM
Nor should he. He's managing to win a job (atleast in his mind anyway) and Wayne just took away an effective pitcher in Coutlangus and left him with an ineffective one in Coffey.

And added two more who are likely to be ineffective.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 05:03 PM
Sigh. What a mess.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 05:06 PM
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he extended Coffey and traded for Majewski.

Wayne's Stubborn that way.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 05:10 PM
More Krivsky...from Trent's blog

"Many times it’s to protect the other pitchers so you can use the right guys whether you’re winning or losing. If you’re going to lose a game and are way behind, you can stay behind and be ready for the next game. There’s an expression among veteran managers, 'you’ve got to learn how to lose a game, too.' There’s a lot of truth in that so you’re prepared to win the next one. It gives Pete a little extra flexibility with his bullpen, and we’ll see how long we go with 13, I don’t have the answer."



Huh?

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:12 PM
There’s old expression among veteran managers: You've got to know how to lose a game too.
So these moves are designed to help Pete do that? Sweet.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 05:13 PM
Wayne's lost his mind. I think next he needs to lose his job.

I'm convinced.

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:13 PM
A little more from C. Trent.



So, basically, with Harang and his back, Dumatrait and Belisle, as well as Livingston, Wayne's basically saying he's expecting to lose some games. So, you know, at least he has some pitchers that will help him lose games if they're ready to pack in a game. But hey, $1 hot dogs!

It's a bad, bad statement to throw out there. I didn't think too much of the fire Krivsky sentiment until now, this is the final straw. It's the dumbest thing I've seen since Juan Castro batting for Josh Hamilton. There's no reason asking Wayne about Dunn's option, because it's not going to be his decision to make.

pedro
08-07-2007, 05:14 PM
that was um... quite an explanation.

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:16 PM
You guys need to relax. This is all just part of the big plan. :p:

Tom Servo
08-07-2007, 05:16 PM
You guys need to relax. This is all just part of the big plan. :p:
and then the WINNING will commence. :thumbup:

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 05:16 PM
that was um... quite an explanation.

That *thump* sound you heard was Wayne Krivsky's career as a Reds GM.

Wayne, go change your pants.

Jaycint
08-07-2007, 05:18 PM
On carrying 13 pitchers: "Many times it's to protect your other pitchers, so you can use the right guys whether you’re winning or losing. There’s old expression among veteran managers: You've got to know how to lose a game too. There’s a lot of truth in that, so you’re prepared to win the next one.

Man are we ever prepared to win the next one...

RichRed
08-07-2007, 05:19 PM
More Krivsky...from Trent's blog

"I donít have the answer."


Clearly.

pedro
08-07-2007, 05:19 PM
More Krivsky...from Trent's blog

"Many times it’s to protect the other pitchers so you can use the right guys whether you’re winning or losing. If you’re going to lose a game and are way behind, you can stay behind and be ready for the next game. There’s an expression among veteran managers, 'you’ve got to learn how to lose a game, too.' There’s a lot of truth in that so you’re prepared to win the next one. It gives Pete a little extra flexibility with his bullpen, and we’ll see how long we go with 13, I don’t have the answer."



Huh?

The only thing I can gather from that is he feels everyone in the BP better be ready to go at least 2 innings and JC was the one guy that probably wasn't best suited for that.

He really isn't winning anyone over with his charisma or his demeanor though.

membengal
08-07-2007, 05:21 PM
Let the winning begin!

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 05:21 PM
Seriously. It's bad enough he makes ridiculous moves, but he makes everything worse when he opens his mouth.

This is the voice of the franchise people.

I weep until he's relieved.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:21 PM
Wayne, from Fay:


Are the Reds going to add a position player soon? “I have no idea. This is how we’re going tonight. I don’t know what’s going to happen in the future.”

The man inspires confidence, doesn't he?

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:22 PM
The man inspires confidence, doesn't he?

C'mon Redsland. You know he can't divulge the plan.

membengal
08-07-2007, 05:23 PM
Seriously, defending WK at this point is getting to be rather difficult, no?

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 05:25 PM
C'mon Redsland. You know he can't divulge the plan.

I said a little while ago that it appeared that "the plan" changed on a weekly basis, ie, that is no plan.

That statement above via Fay only solidifies my opinion.

Makes you just want to shake your head and say "Dude, the jig is up, get lost..."

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 05:25 PM
One thing to consider: This 13-man pitching staff that the Reds now have (man, I can't believe I just typed that!) makes Bobby Livingston a legitimate pinch-hitting option.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:26 PM
C'mon Redsland. You know he can't divulge the plan.
The plan? The PLAN?! THE PLAN??!!! ;)

The man just said this:

"I donít know whatís going to happen in the future."

He doesn't have a plan. How could he? He doesn't know what's going to happen.

:runaway:

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 05:26 PM
One thing to consider: This 13-man pitching staff that the Reds now have (man, I can't believe I just typed that!) makes Bobby Livingston a legitimate pinch-hitting option.

Yes. Suuuh-weeeet. That's what I want to spend my hard earned money on. Critical situations where the Reds will PH at pitcher.

Reds1
08-07-2007, 05:27 PM
It's simple. With Bruce, Bailey, Votto, Cueto, Bray, all at AAA, now Cout, Reds are going for it -- at Louisville!


That quote was fantastic. I'd give you a postive point if we still had that. ;) :beerme:

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:28 PM
I'm sitting in front of my computer laughing as I read Wayne's comments a second time. Is that wrong?

Red Leader
08-07-2007, 05:28 PM
Serioiusly. It's pretty sad when "The Reds game is on" doesn't trump "the Power of Veto is up for grabs on Big Brother" when making a family decision on what to watch on TV in a household of 3 males and 1 female.

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:28 PM
One thing to consider: This 13-man pitching staff that the Reds now have (man, I can't believe I just typed that!) makes Bobby Livingston a legitimate pinch-hitting option.

Yeah, but Pete now has more flexibility when deciding who's going to blow the game in the 8th.

Ltlabner
08-07-2007, 05:29 PM
More Krivsky...from Trent's blog

"Many times itís to protect the other pitchers so you can use the right guys whether youíre winning or losing. If youíre going to lose a game and are way behind, you can stay behind and be ready for the next game. Thereís an expression among veteran managers, 'youíve got to learn how to lose a game, too.' Thereís a lot of truth in that so youíre prepared to win the next one. It gives Pete a little extra flexibility with his bullpen, and weíll see how long we go with 13, I donít have the answer."



Huh?

Wow.

I've been advocating paitence and waiting. But this does absolutly nothing to support Wayne's case as to why he should be GM.

I almost wonder if BCast has already cut Wayne off (hence the ultra limited trading action) and is stringing him along as much as possible until he can make a deal for someone else?

Answers like these and the others posted reciently in this tread almost sound like a guy who's power has been taken away but is going to try to give you answers to make it sound like he still has the power.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:30 PM
Too bad we don't still have three catchers to go with our 13-man pitching staff.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:32 PM
I almost wonder if BCast has already cut Wayne off (hence the ultra limited trading action)Ö
I wondered the same thing in the days after the deadline. I certainly hope you're right.

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 05:32 PM
Too bad we don't still have three catchers to go with our 13-man pitching staff.

That can be arranged.

I still think the Reds will go with a 14-man pitching staff before the September 1 roster expansion.

Raisor
08-07-2007, 05:33 PM
Is it too late to bring DanO back?

I miss the binders of love.

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:33 PM
The Reds now have exactly 3 true outfielders on the roster. We may get to see Keppinger or Conine in the outfield very soon.

Cyclone792
08-07-2007, 05:35 PM
I said a little while ago that it appeared that "the plan" changed on a weekly basis, ie, that is no plan.

That statement above via Fay only solidifies my opinion.

Makes you just want to shake your head and say "Dude, the jig is up, get lost..."

Yep, if there's a plan, I have no idea what it is. Clearly Wayne Krivsky has no idea what it is either.

Oh well, I've had enough with the guy. And telling him to get lost is probably the nicest way for me to say it. ;)

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:35 PM
The Reds now have exactly 3 true outfielders on the roster. We may get to see Keppinger or Conine in the outfield very soon.
Let Livingston play all nine positions. That'd sell some tickets.

remdog
08-07-2007, 05:35 PM
Wow.

I've been advocating paitence and waiting. But this does absolutly nothing to support Wayne's case as to why he should be GM.

I almost wonder if BCast has already cut Wayne off (hence the ultra limited trading action) and is stringing him along as much as possible until he can make a deal for someone else?

Answers like these and the others posted reciently in this tread almost sound like a guy who's power has been taken away but is going to try to give you answers to make it sound like he still has the power.

Now I'm seriously concerned.

Rem

Raisor
08-07-2007, 05:36 PM
Let Livingston play all nine positions. That'd sell some tickets.

He'd beat the Gashouse Gorillias!

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:36 PM
Let Livingston play all nine positions. That'd sell some tickets.

He'd be a modern day Bugs Bunny.

Ltlabner
08-07-2007, 05:39 PM
If you’re going to lose a game and are way behind, you can stay behind and be ready for the next game. There’s an expression among veteran managers, 'you’ve got to learn how to lose a game, too.

You know how sometimes there are watershed moments in a persons carear?

Like everyone knew the buzzards were circiling around Jerry, but when he took the bat out of Hamiltons hands in favor of Castro you knew it was just a matter of time?

I don't really even care about the specifics of the moves. When your boss has spent 18 months telling everyone who would listen how he is going to bring winning back to Cincinnati, proclaiming that you have to "learn how to lose a game" is not a very smart tact to take.

I don't want to be overdramatic, but the die has just been cast. Wayne's done in Cincy. I can't imagine BCast will stand for this. Whether he's done anything substantial to actually bring winning back is irrlevant, BCasts stated mission is to win and his GM is saying you have to learn how to lose.

Wayne, it's been nice knowing you.

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 05:40 PM
The Reds now have exactly 3 true outfielders on the roster. We may get to see Keppinger or Conine in the outfield very soon.

Ken Griffey, Jr. is now officially the #2 CF on the club, too.

Raisor
08-07-2007, 05:40 PM
I bet Wayne just misquoted himself.

Ltlabner
08-07-2007, 05:41 PM
Now I'm seriously concerned.

Rem

(shrug)

PEACE -

Ltlabner

:p:

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 05:41 PM
I still can't figure how Todd Coffey survived the guillotine. I can only guess that Coutlangus jumped in front of him and said, "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done."

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:44 PM
I'm not sure if I'm merely irritated or if I'm actually angry, but it's one of the two.

nate
08-07-2007, 05:45 PM
There’s an expression among veteran managers, 'you’ve got to learn how to lose a game, too.

If so, I think we have enough learnedness to staff a full faculty at Cincinnati Reds Academy Polycraptic. With tenure!

Wow, Wayne.

Just...wow!

RichRed
08-07-2007, 05:45 PM
Yes. Suuuh-weeeet. That's what I want to spend my hard earned money on. Critical situations where the Reds will PH at pitcher.

Look on the bright side: there really is no such thing as a critical situation in a Reds game any more.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:46 PM
So much for "win now."

Ltlabner
08-07-2007, 05:46 PM
So much for "win now."

Now is over.

They have moved on. That was then. This is now.

Thank you.

BRM
08-07-2007, 05:48 PM
So much for "win now."

Bringing up one of the two saviors is a win now move, right? Wait, the GM's stated thought process was this a "learn how to lose a game" move. I'm confused.

LINEDRIVER
08-07-2007, 05:48 PM
Is Kriv is out to cover his ass as much as possible here on out?? Isn't the basically what is going by Coffey staying with the Reds??

Kriv extended Baby Huey's contract and it wont look good if he is sent to Louisville again and doesn't pitch well enough to come back. Other moves have not panned out, the team has sucked for the most part, and Narron had to be fired...all this under Krivsky's watch. Kriv has the rest of this year and next season and it looks like he'll be the next ticket manager/tarp puller of the Fighting Lumberjacks of the Northern Boondocks League in 2009. He's grasping at straws to save his ass. I really dont know how I could possibly see it or say it any other way.

RedsManRick
08-07-2007, 05:49 PM
I just had this thought: "At least if I were a fan of the Cubs I could attend some games... and in a cool park."

Not a good sign.

Somebody should've asked Wayne that if losing well was important to winning the next game, then why weren't the good teams around baseball carrying 13. The picture I get is that Castellini has told WK to win now. WK said "Yes, sir." and made his best attempt to do so, perhaps honestly believing we were close. He now realizes how wrong he was and is now in a prolonged state of crapping his pants on how to explain himself and save face.

RichRed
08-07-2007, 05:50 PM
I'm not sure if I'm merely irritated or if I'm actually angry, but it's one of the two.

I've rounded the corner at Annoyedville and I should be coming up on Apathetictown any minute now. Next stop, Bringonfootballseasonburg.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 05:51 PM
I've never been this excited about a preseason football game...


Well, maybe I have...

Redsland
08-07-2007, 05:51 PM
Öthe GM's stated thought process was this a "learn how to lose a game" move.
Wait, are all of the new callups supposed to help us lose games, or just some of them?

;)

oneupper
08-07-2007, 05:52 PM
Look on the bright side: there really is no such thing as a critical situation in a Reds game any more.

Yep. There. That's it. Winning is NOT important at this point.

Finding out what you have and can count on for 2008 and beyond and not messing up what you have IS.

If that means auditioning some questionable arms. FINE.
If that means Harang, Arroyo and others won't go deep into games. I'M ALL FOR IT.

If that means losing every game till the end of the season. Well it would suck. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.

If that means Weathers doesn't have to pitch EVERY save op.
GREAT.

That's why I understand with the "learning to lose".

MacNarron trying to "win a job" can be as dangerous as Narron was trying to keep his.

It's about time Krivsky jumped in and asserted himself. If Mack can't take this directive...well. NEXT!

RedsManRick
08-07-2007, 06:03 PM
How is demoting Jon Coutlangus in favor of Eddie Guardado a step towards "Finding out what you have and can count on for 2008 and beyond and not messing up what you have"?

Heath
08-07-2007, 06:07 PM
I think that C. Trent's frankness will win him readers but will not get him a job next year.

I think Fay needs to read some C.Trent, but I have a feeling we'll be saddled with crap next year.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 06:11 PM
Just when I don't think I can hear anything quite as stupid as Wayne's remarks earlier, I tune into 700 just now as I'm heading home from the office to hear what they have to say about the transactions. Brennamen and Jones on baseball comes on and their segment is basically in a nutshell, "The HR is overrated". The Reds and Rangers hit a lot of HR's and they both stink so the HR is overrated. They also said a three-run jack was a rally killer.

No kidding.

Marty then said he'd take speed over power any day and that "speed shows up every day."

I almost swerved off the road in disgust.

The dumbing down of a once proud baseball town continues.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 06:13 PM
I think that C. Trent's frankness will win him readers but will not get him a job next year.

I think Fay needs to read some C.Trent, but I have a feeling we'll be saddled with crap next year.

That's why I trust C. Trent at this point. Also, I would think that dealing with Krivsky in pressers may be worse than getting teeth pulled for some of these writers (except for Hal- Wayne loves him some Hal) so a guy like C. Trent that may be out of a job soon is calling it like he sees it, predicting Krivsky to be canned.

oneupper
08-07-2007, 06:14 PM
How is demoting Jon Coutlangus in favor of Eddie Guardado a step towards "Finding out what you have and can count on for 2008 and beyond and not messing up what you have"?

Believe it or not, there is a rationale.

Jon Coutlangus will be in the REDS organization in 2008 unless they trade him. He'll probably be fighting for a spot in the BP in ST.

Guardado may or may not be offered a contract for 2008.

I'm assuming the REDS might like to see what EG has left in the tank, before they actually take some action.

That said, I'd just as soon declare the Everyday Eddie experiment over and stay with Cout, but in general I agree with the philosophy of not wasting gunpowder on lost battles.

That goes for games. I'd cringe when Narron would leave in a starter or go to his best relievers in games where he was behind 4 or 5 runs late.

That goes for the season. Shut down your injured. Rest you stars.
Get a look at some kids, see what the bench guys can do.

It probably would have been better to clean up the roster some (Hat, Conine etc...). I'm assuming it couldn't get done.

Puffy
08-07-2007, 06:20 PM
I've rounded the corner at Annoyedville and I should be coming up on Apathetictown any minute now. Next stop, Bringonfootballseasonburg.

Is Apathetictown near Funkytown?

RedsManRick
08-07-2007, 06:20 PM
Every time I hear WK speak, I feel like he can't get out of his own way. I mean, I know what he was trying to say in terms of not burning your bullpen in a big loss. However, there's just such gaping holes in his logic, it's scary. The closest comparison I can think of is George W Bush. The failure in logic. The awkwardness. The over-reliance on simplistic platitude when defending himself.

The only thing that scares me more is the idea that Walt Jocketty and Tony LaRussa (or Joe Girardi -- check out the health of that Marlins staff...) coming in next year.

pedro
08-07-2007, 06:21 PM
Is Apathetictown near Funkytown?

not even in the same state.

The_jbh
08-07-2007, 06:23 PM
I've rounded the corner at Annoyedville and I should be coming up on Apathetictown any minute now. Next stop, Bringonfootballseasonburg.

I don't want to see Bring on football season in reference to Cincinnati and any word ending with "burg" ever :evil:


But really... isn't bad that I almost want to go drive down to Louisville to watch baseball when I live in Cincinnati? I am confident that team could beat the reds in a 5 games playoff series...

I'm sure there is some financial or lefty breakdown reason why Cout was sent down that I just don't understand but 13 pitchers is hard to justify in even Kriv's crazy world...

WHODEY

Puffy
08-07-2007, 06:26 PM
The only thing that scares me more is the idea that Walt Jocketty and Tony LaRussa (or Joe Girardi -- check out the health of that Marlins staff...) coming in next year.

Give me Jocketty, but LaRussa can stay in St Louis.

I think Jocketty and Davey Johnson would work spectacularly together.

MississippiRed
08-07-2007, 06:28 PM
Is Apathetictown near Funkytown?

I don't know the answer to this but after today's news I need someone to take me down there.

RedsManRick
08-07-2007, 06:30 PM
I think Jocketty and Davey Johnson would work spectacularly together.

Give me Paul Depodesta and Davey Johnson. Though they might kill each other. Neither is the most humble guy from my understanding...

Doc. Scott
08-07-2007, 06:43 PM
So if I'm reading all of this right, C. Trent and many of you think that Wayne Krivsky is going to be fired before the end of the calendar year (or maybe even the season).

Even if that's the case, how does it explain sending down Jon Coutlangus, leaving Todd Coffey in the big leagues, and going with 13 pitchers? There doesn't seem to be a clear cause-and-effect.

You'd think if Krivsky was thinking he were about to be fired, he'd do whatever he could to win a few right away to improve his "stat line".

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 06:45 PM
So if I'm reading all of this right, C. Trent and many of you think that Wayne Krivsky is going to be fired before the end of the calendar year (or maybe even the season).

Even if that's the case, how does it explain sending down Jon Coutlangus, leaving Todd Coffey in the big leagues, and going with 13 pitchers? There doesn't seem to be a clear cause-and-effect.

You'd think if Krivsky was thinking he were about to be fired, he'd do whatever he could to win a few right away to improve his "stat line".

Maybe he does feel he made the right moves....and improved the team.

If that's the case, I'm scared.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 06:57 PM
Maybe he does feel he made the right moves....and improved the team.

If that's the case, I'm scared.

And that's why C. Trent probably thinks he will be fired.

I hope he's right.

BCubb2003
08-07-2007, 07:01 PM
Is Apathetictown near Funkytown?

A suburb of Palookaville.

nate
08-07-2007, 07:05 PM
In the future, may I suggest we put the date in the title of these threads?

For example:

8/7/2007's baffling roster move

Makes it easier to search...like the game threads.

Caveat Emperor
08-07-2007, 07:05 PM
I've been defending Krivsky in the other thread and I read this? I think I know how voters in Gary Condit's district felt.

Seriously...at the very least ACT like you know what the hell is going on.

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 07:08 PM
I think that C. Trent's frankness will win him readers but will not get him a job next year.


He probably never had a shot with the other guys in town, too non kiss butty ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2007, 07:11 PM
I think we should collect some donations and pay C. Trent to report for the RedsZone.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2007, 07:12 PM
Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. As I said after the trade deadline passed, Wayne Krivsky is a horrible GM.

Jon Coutlangus sent down and Mike Stantonm still on this team? Unreal. Good ol' boy network is in full force. I love the Reds but I hope we don't win another game this year. I want Krivsky gone yesterday.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2007, 07:25 PM
I never thought the Reds could hire a worse GM than Dan O'Brien. And they did. At least O'Brien did some solid things through the draft.

mth123
08-07-2007, 07:26 PM
C'mon you guys. Clearly Wayne needs more time.

You armchair GMs are always criticizing the moves of a major league GM without having any idea of what may be going on behind the scenes.;)

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 07:26 PM
C'mon you guys. Clearly Wayne needs more time.

You armchair GMs are always criticizing the moves of a major league GM without having any idea of what may be going on behind the scenes.;)

I've tried to defend him...I can no longer do it.

Heath
08-07-2007, 07:30 PM
Is Apathetictown near Funkytown?

Only if you go through Margaritaville. That's a big city, you know.

Gainesville Red
08-07-2007, 07:30 PM
I guess I can stop suppressing my happiness when guys on my fantasy team do well against the Reds. I mean if WK doesn't care, it's okay for me to be happy, right?

Heath
08-07-2007, 07:31 PM
I think we should collect some donations and pay C. Trent to report for the RedsZone.

I think Hal McCoy can retire and he get that job.

I bet C. Trent's waiting for a Royals job to open up.

MrCinatit
08-07-2007, 07:35 PM
I wake up and am greeted with this bit of trash. Thanks a lot for giving me more reasons to stay in bed, Wayne.
I will say, he is doing a spectacular job at learning how to lose. A top notch job.
He sucks at winning, though.

SteelSD
08-07-2007, 07:38 PM
This whole thing is really getting to the point of absurdly funny. I feel like I'm watching a nightmarish version of "Who's on First" where Krivsky is playing both roles...and he isn't acting.

If I were Pete Mackanin, I'd start drinking real heavily just about now.

IslandRed
08-07-2007, 07:41 PM
Yep. There. That's it. Winning is NOT important at this point.

Finding out what you have and can count on for 2008 and beyond and not messing up what you have IS.

If that means auditioning some questionable arms. FINE.
If that means Harang, Arroyo and others won't go deep into games. I'M ALL FOR IT.

If that means losing every game till the end of the season. Well it would suck. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Like you, I think this is what he was trying to say, but he sure didn't say it very well. And if it didn't come with Castellini's tacit blessing, it may not bode well for him. Of course, like people are saying, it may be a moot point already.

MrCinatit
08-07-2007, 07:43 PM
This whole thing is really getting to the point of absurdly funny. I feel like I'm watching a nightmarish version of "Who's on First" where Krivsky is playing both roles...and he isn't acting.

If I were Pete Mackanin, I'd start drinking real heavily just about now.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/MrCinatit/10101880ADustin-Hoffman-Rain-Man-Po.jpg

Hey...the picture works for both paragraphs!

Doc. Scott
08-07-2007, 08:06 PM
Is it worth remembering that these are a couple of relief pitchers we're talking about, and, of each of the 25 men on the roster, some of the spots that make the smallest difference between whether the Reds win and whether the Reds lose?

Certainly not a defense of our embattled GM, but it seems to have been forgotten in all the frothing. These moves are relatively minor.

pedro
08-07-2007, 08:07 PM
Is it worth remembering that these are a couple of relief pitchers we're talking about, and, of each of the 25 men on the roster, some of the spots that make the smallest difference between whether the Reds win and whether the Reds lose?

Certainly not a defense of our embattled GM, but it seems to have been forgotten in all the frothing. These moves are relatively minor.

True. Coutlangus has thrown all of 10 innings over the last 6 weeks.

westofyou
08-07-2007, 08:09 PM
True. Coutlangus has thrown all of 10 innings over the last 6 weeks.

10 IP?

Wow... let's rant about RISP tomorrow.

Meet me here!!!!

Doc. Scott
08-07-2007, 08:10 PM
True. Coutlangus has thrown all of 10 innings over the last 6 weeks.

That said, no one paint me as a Krivsky apologist. The feeling that "justice" hasn't been served in the demoting of Coutlangus and non-demotion of Coffey is palpable to me as well.

If Stanton's ERA was just a run or so better, we might have been able to trade him and get his two-year contract and walker off the books. Then Cooter would still be here.

MWM
08-07-2007, 08:13 PM
I'm with Puffy. I'm not sure what it says about me or the franchise, but I couldn't give two poops either way on this move. I really couldn't care any less than I do. I never thought that day would come.

pedro
08-07-2007, 08:19 PM
That said, no one paint me as a Krivsky apologist. The feeling that "justice" hasn't been served in the demoting of Coutlangus and non-demotion of Coffey is palpable to me as well.

If Stanton's ERA was just a run or so better, we might have been able to trade him and get his two-year contract and walker off the books. Then Cooter would still be here.

Clearly, Coutlangus has pitched better than either of those guys. To me this move speaks more to the perceived need for long relievers with Belisle, Livingston & Pitcher X in the starting rotation and the desire by Krivsky to try and salvage some value out of Stanton.

Cooper
08-07-2007, 08:33 PM
Mentioned earlier how Wayne K. covers ALL the tracks....and then he goes and saya how important it is to learn to lose (or whatever it was...eye roll). He covers every base.

His whole MO is CYA. Every single time the man speaks he looks to take both sides of an issue. It's weird.

I'm assuming if Mack goes on a winnning streak Wayne K. is going to pull him aside and tell him he's not losing the the way a manager should?

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 08:34 PM
Clearly, Coutlangus has pitched better than either of those guys. To me this move speaks more to the perceived need for long relievers with Belisle, Livingston & Pitcher X in the starting rotation and the desire by Krivsky to try and salvage some value out of Stanton.

Pitcher X:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/75/Racer_X.jpg/125px-Racer_X.jpg

pedro
08-07-2007, 08:39 PM
Pitcher X:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/75/Racer_X.jpg/125px-Racer_X.jpg

Don't mess with me Speed, you'll only get hurt.

Ltlabner
08-07-2007, 08:47 PM
Certainly not a defense of our embattled GM, but it seems to have been forgotten in all the frothing. These moves are relatively minor.

I agree 100% that the moves themselves are minor. While I am a big fan of the Cooter and would rather see Coffey go down and Stanton gone that wasn't the 'news of the day'. Frankly, on a team this bad we can all pretend each move is worst than the next, or dig for some explination in the carnage.

It was Wayne's hamfisted attempt to explain himself. When he starts openly saying we have to "learn to lose" he is sealing his own fate with BCast.

I think BCast can abide mistakes, blunders and the length of time it takes to turn around a moribund franchise as long as the GM is striving towards improvement. I don't think he can tollerate a GM that is talking about accepting losing.

Perhaps it was a mis-quote or Wayne just didn't express himself well and we're freaking out over nothing (wouldn't be the first time). Either way, when Bob reads "we have to learn to lose" in his morning paper it's going to be a blow to whatever his confidence in Wayne currently is.

redsmetz
08-07-2007, 08:47 PM
It's interesting. Pete makes it sound like he had very little input and wasn't privy to much of the decision making. Wayne makes it sound like he sat down with Pete and Dick Pole and they came to this conclusion.

Maybe someone says this further down the line (I'm playing catch-up), but I don't think Pete's comments preclude that a discussion was had, input was taken and Krivsky made the decisions he did. In fact, Mac notes that maybe WK's got something going. Perhaps you're correct that we're getting divided stories, but I can't say it's a given.

Big Klu
08-07-2007, 08:48 PM
"Pitcher X, are you really my long-lost brother Rex Racer?"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3c/Speed_Racer.jpg/250px-Speed_Racer.jpg

edabbs44
08-07-2007, 08:48 PM
C'mon you guys. Clearly Wayne needs more time.

You armchair GMs are always criticizing the moves of a major league GM without having any idea of what may be going on behind the scenes.;)

Sensational.:D

Strikes Out Looking
08-07-2007, 09:20 PM
Ok, I defended WK on page 5 of this thread. After reading his comments I can only say "I'm sorry." I don't want any Red's manager "to learn to lose." That is just stupid--the Reds need to learn to win.

It kills me that a crappy Cubs team took the guy who should have been the manager in Cincy and are in the middle of a pennant race. We got 1/2 season of a moron and a GM who is making moves that make Dick Wagner look good.

KronoRed
08-07-2007, 09:20 PM
Pitcher X:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/75/Racer_X.jpg/125px-Racer_X.jpg

He LOOKS like a pitcher, tall..mean lookin

Sign him.

redsmetz
08-07-2007, 09:21 PM
In re-reading Wayne's comments, I suspect he's trying to say that in a losing game, you've got to have the horses to "take one for the team" - to give us innings and not further deplete your relief corps. Yes, to say "You've got to know how to lose a game too" isn't the best way to put it, but I think that's what he's getting at.

I appreciated the comments about taking a look at everything we have that someone posted earlier. We have a plethora of talent pooling at Louisville and they can help this club in the coming years.

KoryMac5
08-07-2007, 09:34 PM
These moves make absolutely no sense. Everyday Eddie and Mike Stanton are basically the same pitcher these days. They both throw 86 consistently. How does having two aging relievers who can't fool anyone help this team. Cast better be ready to see a big drop in attendence after this nonsense.

wheels
08-07-2007, 09:47 PM
Sigh.

That's all I got.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2007, 09:49 PM
These moves make absolutely no sense. Everyday Eddie and Mike Stanton are basically the same pitcher these days. They both throw 86 consistently. How does having two aging relievers who can't fool anyone help this team. Cast better be ready to see a big drop in attendence after this nonsense.

I think he needs to be more worried about his job...

REDREAD
08-07-2007, 10:04 PM
I think you are on to something. After beating the Pirates twice this weekend the front office could see the number one pick slipping away. :)
I think the FO is hoping beyond hope that some team will truly panic and take some of these washed up pitchers off their hands before they are forced to release them.


Not directed at you.. but I don't buy this whole "showcasing" thing.

Wayne was pretty inactive at the trading deadline, despite there being pretty heavy interest in some of our vets. It was also reported that Weathers was off limits.

I'm sorry, I don't see a silver lining. I think Wayne honestly believes that sending Coutlangus down and bringing up Maj and Guarado makes this team better. Just as he made siging Castro longterm a priority, so no other team would "steal" him from us :lol:

The evidence is mounting that Wayne is pretty clueless. He's smart enough to listen to some of his scouts/advisors (Hamilton and Phillips) but he's pretty clueless on how to build a winning team.

fearofpopvol1
08-07-2007, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but Gosling is out of options so if he is sent down, you risk losing him. So, that's not why he was sent down.

RedLegSuperStar
08-07-2007, 10:33 PM
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but Gosling is out of options so if he is sent down, you risk losing him. So, that's not why he was sent down.

And? Salmon, McBeth, and Bray in my opinion are all worthy of the spot over him...

LoganBuck
08-07-2007, 11:02 PM
I miss Dan Obrien.

That is so so wrong on so many levels.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 11:19 PM
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but Gosling is out of options so if he is sent down, you risk losing him.
Honestly, who cares if the Reds run the "risk" of "losing" Michael Gosling?

Redsland
08-07-2007, 11:22 PM
In re-reading Wayne's comments, I suspect he's trying to say that in a losing game, you've got to have the horses to "take one for the team" - to give us innings and not further deplete your relief corps.
You mean, like, have a guy who can get his brains beat in for three or four innings? Heck, we've got those guys in spades. Coffey, Santos, and Gosling come immediately to mind. So why did we need more of those types? Why couldn't we aspire for something a bit less poisonous?

Redsland
08-07-2007, 11:24 PM
So if I'm reading all of this right, C. Trent and many of you think that Wayne Krivsky is going to be fired before the end of the calendar year (or maybe even the season).

Even if that's the case, how does it explain sending down Jon Coutlangus, leaving Todd Coffey in the big leagues, and going with 13 pitchers? There doesn't seem to be a clear cause-and-effect.

You'd think if Krivsky was thinking he were about to be fired, he'd do whatever he could to win a few right away to improve his "stat line".
I think (hope) that he's going to be fired because (IMHO) he truly believes that these moves have improved the team, when in fact they're (IMHO) obviously terrible, borderline indefensibly heinous moves.

Redsland
08-07-2007, 11:27 PM
I think that C. Trent's frankness will win him readers but will not get him a job next year.
Agreed. I loved the candor he displayed on his blog, but it will not endear him to the establishment.

coachw513
08-08-2007, 12:05 AM
Maybe because the significance of the shuffle is so low I was expected to not care...

But I still do...but it's hard not to be embarassed by the random ignorace exhibited by those who are the caretakers of the team I love...

And now Bonds...

Deep sigh...

Cedric
08-08-2007, 12:12 AM
I have no idea what just happened. Give me a new GM next year or give me death!

fearofpopvol1
08-08-2007, 12:39 AM
I wasn't trying to offer insight as to why, but rather just telling you of what I think Wayne's rationale was. I think Gosling could be a useful loogy. His stats against lefties are better than you'd think. I personally think Coffey should have been the guy to go down over Cout, but that's just me.

Danny Serafini
08-08-2007, 12:58 AM
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but Gosling is out of options so if he is sent down, you risk losing him. So, that's not why he was sent down.

Gosling is not out of options. He was optioned earlier this year, so he still can be sent down. This is likely his final option year however, so next year he would have to be kept up.

knuckler
08-08-2007, 01:25 AM
I think Ltlabner is right, Wayne just jumped the shark if he hadn't already. His tendency is to avoid all communication, and now we see why.

Just for contrast, here is what Krivsky COULD have said:

"The time has come to recognize that, unfortunately, we are not in contention this season. Therefore we are going to use the remainder of this season to position the Cincinnati Reds to win as many games as possible in the future. To that end, we have evaluated every player in our system from top to bottom to determine what they need to do this season to make the maximum contribution next year.

Some players have nothing to prove but are too valuable to risk losing for next year. For example, Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo will be on strict pitch count limits for the remainder of the year, and Ken Griffey Jr and Brandon Phillips will get frequent days off.

Other players need playing time to continue developing skills or so that we can evaluate them more fully. For example, Edwin Encarnacion, Jeff Keppinger, and Josh Hamilton will play somewhere every day they are healthy, Brandon Phillips will get time at shortstop, while Jared Burton and Bill Bray will get opportunities in game-critical situations and Eddie Guardado will determine his ability to get major league hitters out again. Each players in this category has been given specific areas to work on such as pitches to develop, hitting the opposite way, bunting, holding runners on or aspects of fielding their position, just for example.

Some players are best able to develop these skills in Louisville where they can get more repetitions and develop their game away from major-league pressures. For example, Jon Coutlangas is going to AAA to develop a pitch that will be effective against righthanders and Todd Coffey is going to AAA to work on his consistency. Top prospects like Joey Votto, Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey have plenty they can still learn at the AAA level.

Some players will not be here in 2008. Those players will be dealt to other teams when they can return any value, or if they cannot be converted to future talent, they will be used to maximize the health and learning of the players that will return. For example, most of the bullpen will eat innings to protect the health of our starters.

This season has been a major disappointment in Cincinnati, but next season will be fun again. We have a solid core of talent at the major league level in Aaron Harang, Adam Dunn, Brandon Phillips and Josh Hamilton. We have outstanding young talent on the way in Jay Bruce, Joey Votto and Johnny Cueto. I will continue beating every bush and searching high and low to bring in additional talent as I have since becoming GM, and Mr Castellini is supportive of filling in the remaining gaps this winter. We have a plan, we're sticking to it, and the future is bright. Have a nice day."

Of course, instead he told the fans the plan is to learn how to lose. Sigh.

WVRedsFan
08-08-2007, 01:39 AM
Maybe because the significance of the shuffle is so low I was expected to not care...

But I still do...but it's hard not to be embarassed by the random ignorace exhibited by those who are the caretakers of the team I love...

And now Bonds...

Deep sigh...

Coach:

Your disgust is my disgust. After all the enthusiasm and hope projected by our new owner, it's the same old same old by people who seeminly do not have a clue. Like you, it hurts. And all the ranting and raving I've done because I love this team so much--amd have all my life--have been nothing more than a plea by a fan who wants to see his team do well. But as I said earlier today, I give up. I have resigned myself to not having any hope. And it hurts. I'll still root my backside off and watch or listen to every game, but I no longer believe that the magic can happen again unless more changes are made.

As for Bonds. I'd rather not say...

savafan
08-08-2007, 02:20 AM
Even I've given up on Krivsky now, and I've never given up on anyone...

Ron Madden
08-08-2007, 03:54 AM
C'mon you guys. Clearly Wayne needs more time.

You armchair GMs are always criticizing the moves of a major league GM without having any idea of what may be going on behind the scenes.;)


:beerme: Well said Mth123.

What's with all this hand wringing and gnashing of teeth anyway?

I'm sure "Special K" knows more about Baseball than some "Stat Geeks" on a message board.

Ron Madden
08-08-2007, 04:24 AM
I appreciated the comments about taking a look at everything we have that someone posted earlier. We have a plethora of talent pooling at Louisville and they can help this club in the coming years.

Every other team has some talent in thier minor leagues too. We gain nothing there.

Most other teams spend thier payroll wisely to keep thier own talented players or to better themselves with free agents. We gain nothing there.


We're hurtin' Pal, we might as well admit it. :(

LINEDRIVER
08-08-2007, 05:09 AM
Coutlangus today, Keppinger tomorrow?

Always Red
08-08-2007, 06:42 AM
Coutlangus today, Keppinger tomorrow?

Maybe.

My theory is that Wayne is a middle manager, stuck in an executive's position. He appears overwhelmed, paranoid, and out of his element when you watch him speak to the media.

I was taken to task here yesterday for suggesting that a small part of Wayne's job was to provide a little positive pr, and hope for the fans of this team. I was told that Wayne owed us nothing. Well, he delivered that yesterday; nothing. No, not the moves so much, as his reaction, his dealing with the media, and his obvious lack of communication with his manager.

He'd be much better off just issuing a press release, and not even speaking to the public at all.

This is fascinating in a way; watching a train wreck in very slow motion. What's next? Pete Mack resigns? More organizational guys quitting? Cast speaking out about this? Wayne gets fired before the end of the year? Dollar beer? It certainly is more interesting than the team on the field right now- so much so that most of us barely noticed a fine pitching performance last night by the staff!

redsmetz
08-08-2007, 07:31 AM
Maybe.

My theory is that Wayne is a middle manager, stuck in an executive's position. He appears overwhelmed, paranoid, and out of his element when you watch him speak to the media.

I was taken to task here yesterday for suggesting that a small part of Wayne's job was to provide a little positive pr, and hope for the fans of this team. I was told that Wayne owed us nothing. Well, he delivered that yesterday; nothing. No, not the moves so much, as his reaction, his dealing with the media, and his obvious lack of communication with his manager.

He'd be much better off just issuing a press release, and not even speaking to the public at all.

This is fascinating in a way; watching a train wreck in very slow motion. What's next? Pete Mack resigns? More organizational guys quitting? Cast speaking out about this? Wayne gets fired before the end of the year? Dollar beer? It certainly is more interesting than the team on the field right now- so much so that most of us barely noticed a fine pitching performance last night by the staff!

I would disagree with the earlier assertion that Krivsky owes us nothing; although I do say that no GM should be yacking up potential trades. Certainly WK could have used a good PR guy yesterday to make himself better understood.

But for all the hand wringing, nobody seems to have noticed that we won a game last night; shut out a team that isn't half bad. One of our two most critical starters had a good outing - and we're sweating Cout being sent to Louisville?

The team is a train wreck, but I'm tired of herniating over every last move. Let's play some ball.

nate
08-08-2007, 08:01 AM
:beerme: Well said Mth123.

What's with all this hand wringing and gnashing of teeth anyway?

I'm sure "Special K" knows more about Baseball than some "Stat Geeks" on a message board.

Agreed.

Hope these soothe!

http://www.strawberrynet.com/images/products/04760091101.jpg

http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/15645/200.jpg

bucksfan2
08-08-2007, 08:49 AM
While I am kinda of shocked by these moves, I am not ready to call for Krivsky head just yet. Guardado has a 3M club option for next year. The reds need to figure out if he can still pitch. He probably will get every opportunity to show that he can pitch and will probably be the first lefty out of the pen. That was Count's spot so I think sending him to Louisville is the best way to get him regular playing time. Coffey does not deserve to be on this club and I am kind of curious as to why he is. But Mackanin has the ability to not pitch him if he so pleases. If Krivsky says to pitch Coffey and Mackanin doesn't listen whats the worst that can happen?

As for Krivsky's comments about knowing how to lose games, IMO this is a very imporant quality of a good manager. Nothing is worse than losing a game big and watching a manager (Jerry Narron's specality) wreck the bullpen for the next 3-4 days. I rememeber watching a game last year against the cardnals and they said how Tony LaRusa was raving about the performance of Jason Marquis the night before. Marquis line was 5 ip, 13 earned runs. But when you look at it Marquis took it on the chin but he saved a bull pen that was over worked. The good managers realize when there is time to throw the towel in on a certain game in order to put your team in the best position to win the next few nights.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-08-2007, 09:32 AM
This is fascinating in a way; watching a train wreck in very slow motion. What's next? Pete Mack resigns? More organizational guys quitting? Cast speaking out about this? Wayne gets fired before the end of the year? Dollar beer? It certainly is more interesting than the team on the field right now- so much so that most of us barely noticed a fine pitching performance last night by the staff!

My thoughts exactly. In a sick way, this is entertaining stuff.

edabbs44
08-08-2007, 12:15 PM
From this morning's ESPN fantasy chat. Thought it was appropriate to let Eric Karabell to chime in on this thread:


Nick (NYC): Why the heck is Cincy still waiting to call up Votto?

Eric Karabell: I wish I knew. But that team does a lot of odd things, really. If Eddie Guardado gets the next save, it wouldn't surprise me, but I just can't fathom why the Reds aren't rebuilding. Joey Votto is ready to play first base.

LoganBuck
08-08-2007, 12:27 PM
From this morning's ESPN fantasy chat. Thought it was appropriate to let Eric Karabell to chime in on this thread:

He has to work on his play in LF first:rolleyes:

BRM
08-08-2007, 12:28 PM
but I just can't fathom why the Reds aren't rebuilding


This guy just doesn't get it. Why rebuild when you are only a bullpen arm or two away from a division title in 2008?

dougdirt
08-08-2007, 12:30 PM
This guy just doesn't get it. Why rebuild when you are only a bullpen arm or two away from a division title in 2008?

WAYNE is that you?!

BRM
08-08-2007, 12:34 PM
WAYNE is that you?!

:laugh:

Guardado and Bray = 2008 NL Central champs

KronoRed
08-08-2007, 01:03 PM
:laugh:

Guardado and Bray = 2008 NL Central champs

2007 you mean :thumbup: